Cancel Culture Debate with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Julie Bindel, Kehinde Andrews & Billy Bragg

Join our first KZbin livestream debate on Cancel Culture on 22nd Sept at 6pm BST/ 1pm ET.
Ask your questions live and take part during the event by voting on the motion, ‘Cancel Culture is Threatening our Freedoms’.
Cast your FIRST VOTE here:
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Cast your FINAL VOTE here:
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It seems like every day there is a new celebrity or writer being ‘cancelled’ on Twitter.
JK Rowling, Scarlett Johansson, Jodie Comer, Kanye West. All have been ‘cancelled’ - denounced on social media for doing or saying something considered wrong or offensive, often on matters to do with race or gender. Classic liberals say this ‘cancel culture’ poses a devastating attack on our liberties, while those on the progressive Left argue what we are witnessing is activism by and on behalf of marginalised groups who are seeking to redress the structural inequalities that have historically held them back.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Julie Bindel will argue that cancel culture is destroying our freedoms while Kehinde Andrews and Billy Bragg will argue it is in fact a long overdue way of speaking truth to power.
Let us know what you think and join our live debate on 22nd Sept at 6pm BST/ 1pm ET.

[@wessexmom]

Wow. Billy Bragg's masculinity will never recover from having his tiny little brain measured against the huge intellects of these two brilliant women!

[@AnaPaula-um8rh]

The best thing I took from this discussion is definitely finding ayaan hirsi ali wow what a woman

[@Red__Law]

She's a true modern heroine.

[@just_another32]

She talks about identity politics on the hoover institute channel and it is very powerful. She draws on her experience of tribalism in Somalia.

[@BrianCrouch]

Read about her experiences in the Netherlands. Shocking.

[@wcollier8313]

Buy and read her books, do. :)

[@just_another32]

@@wcollier8313 are you her agent? Just kidding :-)

[@Δημόκριτος-ξ6ο]

Thank you, Ayaan Hirsi Ali for making logical sense and not grinding an axe.

[@just_another32]

Yes indeed!

[@mariekeboos2948]

Much love and appreciation to the 2 absolute shero's of this debate: Julie Bindel and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

[@nayab1841]

I would just like to say that Bindel arguments devolved to talking about feminism which she herself admitted. Half the time she wasn't even talking in relation with the debate.

[@halestorm123]

Guess you men have never been beaten and forced to have sex yeah guess not Men! Julie you are a legend

[@sylviavasquez9523]

@@nayab1841 She was addressing a very specific concern and how it is getting erased and trashed because of 'cancel culture'. A small and aggressive % of trans activists are trying to undo victories 2nd wave feminists achieved in securing female spaces. I'm not an expert on this,by any means, and I don't identify as feminist. However, this is her life's commitment and she is being dis-invited to give talks and she is being stymied in the continuation of her work due to cancel culture. She (along with other prominent activists) are being defamed and called Nazis, etc. Her point is that she has a long record of being on the left and supporting left causes in her own particular way. I don't have to agree with her at all to understand that the left is eating its own and undermining human rights activism with its wrong headed witch hunt approach. They have caused people (women too!) to lose faculty positions, etc. The public should know and worry about this, because once this crap gains traction, many people will also end up losing their jobs. In fact, faculty are now being told they need to sign 'loyalty' oaths to prove they are anti-racist.

[@serpentines6356]

As the saying goes...'The left eats it's own.' And, 'truth is not a left wing value.' The political left has been calling anyone they don't like a Nazi, for several decades now. Another term the political left has made meaningless. I consider myself 'lib', and think 'the left' is becoming more dangerous all the time. I am noticing if I bring a differing opinion up with my friends who mostly identify on the left, they usually just do not want to hear it. It totally reminds me of the religious cult thinking I grew up around. Other side of the same coin.

[@Brianbeesandbikes]

@@serpentines6356 Crucial to make the distinction between leftists that are feminist, pro-worker, anti-racist, anti-elite; and reactionary 'leftists' (so called by the right) that use far right attack tactics that ae neoliberal at best.

[@akstandup7912]

The women wiped the floor with the men here. The best way to argue against something when you haven't got a point is to deliberately miss the point ...and 'grandstand'.

[@yorkman129]

Excellent contributions by Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Julie Bindel.

[@brendavargas774]

Ayan could not have said it better: "There is no accountability without freedom of speech".

[@kenjifuse2234]

Whoa, Ayaan and Julie just whupped the four cheeks of Kehinde's and Billy's asses! Nice job!

[@harding10B]

Kenji Fuse that’s that sunlight they’re so afraid of, that’s why cancel culture is preferred no need for all those inconvenient debates or having to provide that annoying evidence people keep on insisting on.

[@GDKLockout]

Ayaan is a class act. Bindel i feel conflicted about, i love the way she speaks and her use of language, but find myself disagreeing with the content a lot.

[@sylviavasquez9523]

@@GDKLockout I don't agree with everything she says either and that's why I enjoy listening to her. She makes me rethink my assumptions (especially about prostitution) and when I feel conflicted, I get anxious. But isn't that a good thing. I think we have to accept that feeling 'bad' can give rise to clearer thinking.

[@serpentines6356]

@Sylvia Vasquez...Yes. Questioning ourselves is what we must do if we want to become better people. Always search for what is true. Truth gives a certain peace. Even though we may pay for our lives to defend it, or because of it.

[@GDKLockout]

@@sylviavasquez9523 i agree. The best learning comes from those figures whom have our trust because of their rationale on conclusions we agree with, but then Carry on to draw really different conclusions on other subjects. If i were to take just this video, her incesent mentionong of female victims of male violence, an honest appraiel of that movement over the last 40 years would have to include the data showing that men are on the recoving end of a lot of female violence too, that often the violence is reciprocal but since the police will always remove the man, it goes down as male on female. The list goes on, however the femistazi will only focus on the helpless cases of true tragedy and speak as if that represents the whole. But i agree with her 100% on cancel culture, if we are to work through these issues it has to be done in public.

[@earlyivermectincancelscovi2522]

Thumbs up for Ayaan Hirsi Ali! Cancel culture is just the new fancy term for ‘repressive tolerance’ sensu Marcuse, or in other words: leftist fascism. Edit: of course, I also oppose ‘cancel culture’ when it comes from the lunatic right. We either have freedom of speech or we don’t. When I choose to not buy from Gillette/Procter & Gamble or Ben & Jerry’s/Unilever because I detest their stupid identity politics and obnoxious virtue signaling, that too is part of my freedoms. Trying to get those businesses ruined, rioting at and torching their property is not.

[@mchlle94]

It's not really left-wing, it's neoliberal

[@freyahopcroft]

Kehinde rolling his eyes at Ayaan says everything about his maturity level

[@inkoftheworld]

His demeanor felt very disrespectful and unprofessional. :/

[@martymcfly6716]

He's uk's Tariq Nasheed

[@poerava]

He’s the only one talking sense on this panel. Cancel culture does not exist. Money still rules the world. Fight the power

[@ScottNormanRosenthal]

@@poerava Cancel culture, the act of shutting down any dissent, is very real. Mostly from the Left. I'm an old radical. Now I get canceled for asking questions.

[@poerava]

@Scott Norman Rosenthal How do you ascertain, qualify and measure whether a company is on the ‘left’? So when a channel gets shut down on Facebook, how do you deduct if it’s a ‘left’ leaning company. These tin foil hat conspiracies are very common (with people who seem to have right wing views).

[@jennyj4111]

Ayaan is so incredibly composed and articulate. The only good speaker on this panel.

[@jackanaples]

Julie Bindel did a fine job too. Not quite in the class of Ayaan, but that's to be expected. She probably has more experience with public speaking and debate than the other three combined.

[@wcollier8313]

Ayaan a different league entirely! :)

[@banana420]

Julie really didn't talk about anything but feminism and how she thinks men are pretending to be women to get into women's shelters or something. I don't think she really addressed the topic of the debate.

[@DM-rb2qt]

@@banana420 Ya who cares about womens rights. No one cares if women get silenced for feeling threatened by laws allowing men in female only spaces. We need to focus on important issues like removing Aunt Jemima from grocery stores.

[@myriampikeris8324]

@@jackanaples q

[@jacquelinemclaren6830]

It is so notable that B and K did not answer Julie's question about why men who are blatantly transphobic do not get so attacked as feminists. I have noted it never gets addressed as to why women get so much more abuse. B and K ignore complete the reality of misogyny and abuse women face. Julie and Ayan - well done.

[@Δημόκριτος-ξ6ο]

I suspect that "transphobia" is not really an issue for many Social JustUs Wokes (where Wokes is the polite term). I thought that Julie made a good point that accusation of "transphobia" is a smoke-screen for gynephobia.

[@nayab1841]

I am gonna try my hand at it and say that men are looked at, more as apathetic to a cause compared to women. By that, I mean that people assume most men do not care/ aren't feminists, while for a lot of people feminism is the ideology that everyone should be equal. So when a feminist is outed as transphobic, it hurts the cause a lot more. They get more outrage because their peers and their misogynist detractors shun them compared to just the feminist with men. Just to be clear, I am not saying most men are misogynist.

[@Δημόκριτος-ξ6ο]

@@nayab1841 I think the "equality" ideal might depend on whether you're thinking of 2nd or 3rd wave feminism. The apparent historical problem with *many* ideological movements is retention/takeover by dogmatic extremists, the vengefully angry, and societal-manipulators with a marginally-related political agenda.

[@ScottNormanRosenthal]

I'm Jewish. I want to hear what David Irving says. "Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer."

[@arasgoodgin9274]

Ayaan and Julie, thank you for your brilliant interventions x

[@BigDadiShagi]

Ngl Julie was really off putting with her attitude of “well cancelling me is bad but cancelling the ppl that don’t agree with me is ok”

[@crawford1083]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Wonderful woman,

[@davidhodgson4685]

Ayann Hirsi Ali - what a beautiful mind and heart.

[@walshythemusician]

Jesus Christ, Kehinde's thinking is so shallow and superficial. He sounds like a teenager trying to pass himself off as a well-rounded intellectual. Embarrassing to listen to.

[@wcollier8313]

Excrutiating. Embarassing.

[@just_another32]

This is a much better debate imo: kzbin.info/www/bejne/raGqlWh6j8R-a9k - even though it is a year or so old. Andrews doesn't do any better arguing against the motion, but I think the two Jonathan's do a better job than those for the motion in the current video. Enjoy if you watch it!

[@sylviavasquez9523]

I had the same reaction. I was waiting to hear, "I know you are, but what am I?" He expressed nothing but contempt for the whole exercise. What a jerk.

[@just_another32]

@@sylviavasquez9523 I was trying to think of that old playground phrase! Thank you so much! Haha! It has been on the tip of my tongue for ages while watching debates like this one. It is very pre-school-ish and we need to start just calling it out for what it is!

[@serpentines6356]

Oh, I am a super duper free speech supporter. I am totally against 'hate speech' laws. I had no idea Rowling's books were being burned. How stupid. Why would the narrator want to ban a holocaust denier? I totally think Nazis have a right to march down the street. Peaceably. We must uphold free speech. Violent threats, and actions are what we must address, and work to prevent.

[@MubianaKatukula]

I like her, Ayaan Hirsi

[@just_another32]

She is brilliant isn't she. :)

[@MubianaKatukula]

Very brilliant indeed

[@DocC993]

Read or listen to her book, titled "Infidel". She is one of my heroes.

[@charleshowie2074]

Read 'Infadel'

[@landonmiller6943]

Read her work. She's an intellectual powerhouse.

[@1mimarin]

Ayaan rocks, is a total badass and makes Mssrs Bragg and Andrews look like fools

[@moonlightray8493]

There's a huge difference between boycotting a person after you've evaluated their views and have found them to be inaccurate/unproductive, and cancelling a person because you find their views offensive/unorthodox. The former follows after a careful consideration of the other party's arguments, while the latter deprives other people from ever hearing or being exposed to such arguments.

[@BrianCrouch]

Spot on.

[@kipling1957]

moonlight ray Nonsense. Offensive and unorthodox is the way of the world. Nothing qualifies for silencing anyone. Also, I had no idea Billy Brag was such a wanker, and I bought so many of his albums as a youth. AHA is the only one here thinking intelligently.

[@merlepatterson]

The trouble with subjective evaluation of the other one finds as "Inaccurate/unproductive" and thus "cancelling" them, is that it is a subjective position of 'judgement absent debate' or 'intimate historical knowledge' of the other person's collective nature in whole. The cancellation may be for only one small piece of that person's overall character or a momentary state of mind which could be subject to change over time.

[@kipling1957]

@@merlepatterson I reject the very idea of the "cancellation of a person" as axiomatic to free speech. Arguments about momentary states of mind, collective nature, and matters of debate are moot points.

[@merlepatterson]

@@kipling1957 I was actually addressing the OP.

[@hermannbarbablanca]

Thank you Ayaan, Thank you Julie. You are amazing women!

[@stephanielux]

Julie and Ayann - you were amazing. Thank you. The screwing over of women has been insane with all of this.

[@mw7675]

Julie Bindel is brilliant! Kehinde is the most annoying person on the panel. The utter lack of effort he has put into his position is insulting to the rest of the panelists. He just sits there doing his own work, looks up every now and then and just distractedly spews some nonsense, gaslights everyone and just giggles until he can go back to his homework.

[@youwhatm8te]

it's his career I guess

[@jennyj4111]

Bloody hell, Kehinde Andrews is an “academic”. The state of British universities is dramatically going downhill. The bumbling buffoon can’t string a proper argument together without resorting to straw-manning.

[@just_another32]

It is frightening

[@earlyivermectincancelscovi2522]

minxymissy1 … many years ago, before the damn activists took over university and turned it into SJW Central, even social sciences used to have scientific rigor and value

[@wodenravens]

Kehinde is notorious for his buffoonery. That's why he is regularly called on to GMTV to tell the nation the St George's flag is racist.

[@M4ruta]

He has a PhD in arguing against himself.

[@ohwellwhateverr]

minxymissy1 Thomas Sowell is a social sciences academic. It IS a valid and worthy discipline, but it’s been overrun with this identitarian mindset. But I wouldn’t dismiss social sciences outright, and Thomas Sowell is living proof of that.

[@louiseparker1915]

It's not up to the elites to shut down debate. Well said!

[@Zalley]

Well done Ayaan and Julie!

[@geri-atric1660]

Ayaan and Julie were brilliant and the dudes failed big time.

[@manuelb8808]

Ayaan Hirsi what an inspiring woman! Kehinde and Billy are just intellectual midgets in comparison.

[@MattBayArea]

Billy was completely lost between online & in person. Julie was too busy pushing a feminist narrative to properly pertain to the argument. Kehinde was making sense at first then turned into an over-talking SJW at the end. Ayaan gave her own intro as a prelude to the subject & seemed to be the only one who actually understood how tribalism & mob mentality can silence an individual & ruin their life.

[@ScottNormanRosenthal]

Not at all. She stated facts about what has been done to her and others.

[@Brianbeesandbikes]

The 'feminist narrative' IS the humanist position. It is not only central to free speech, it goes all the way to freedom to not be raped, physically attacked and pushed into abusive cultural norms like prostitution.

[@lorentzlossius771]

The straw men are flying around everywhere in this mediocre debate. Ayaan makes the clearest, simplest sense.

[@just_another32]

Yes, because she draws on classical liberalism rather than just making wild ideological assumptions about so called white patriarchies.

[@just_another32]

Yes indeed!

[@Δημόκριτος-ξ6ο]

I think it's more a case of being singed whilst burning haystacks.

[@serpentines6356]

Ironically, it's the accused, 'white male patriarchy' that gave us the most advanced civil rights, free speech, ideal of liberty ever created on the planet. I say we make a toast every day, to those wonderful, brave white males who sometimes lost everything to advance civilization

[@Δημόκριτος-ξ6ο]

​@@serpentines6356 Ironically, it's also the white male patriarchy that brought us European wars. The salient point is that ONLY the white male patriarchy historically had power (including in nations governed by white colonialists) --- to do good or perpetrate ill.

[@MsPayal1]

Ayaan is amazing, always has been

[@hattix7233]

I love Ayaan

[@wessexmom]

We all do! Ayyan has more balls than these 2 men put together!

[@kjellbjrnasmo480]

Ayaan is absolutely right.

[@Rik-B]

Regarding that argument that Andrews seems to be so proud of: It's technically true that organizers are allowed to disinvite or not invite whoever they want. But that's not what people are upset about. Disinviting speakers from events >precicely< in reaction to shitstorms and violent threats (as has happened) is extremely problematic by nature: It's a signal that people will get their will by just being angry, irrational, and unwilling to compromise. A bunch of hate mail writers should not be allowed to influence that process. But they do, and since they get through with it, people (not necessarily the same people) will continue to try. That's a toxic state of mind that should not be encouraged. Giving them what they want is like negotiating with terrorists. It encourages violent threats, hate mail, and pretend outrage.

[@Δημόκριτος-ξ6ο]

In other words, like false accusations of sexual misbehavior, "sh*tstorming* is a tool for the attainment of political goals. I suspect that many of the outraged complainers are being manipulated by heart-string pullers.

[@imtheking820]

Ayaan is a gem.

[@nato8339]

Billy, do you actually know what you are talking about when it involves women rights and freedoms? This tells me you do not.

[@wcollier8313]

Braggis dead wood.

[@Δημόκριτος-ξ6ο]

@strontiumXnitrate Some men aren't frightened of women. Poor you.

[@just_another32]

This was good. I'd have liked to have heard a stronger case for what cancel culture is and its implications (e.g., self censorship), since Andrews and Bragg both challenged the whole idea of cancel culture and whether it actually exists. They cited examples of what they claimed to be cancel culture, so that it seemed a much broader and fluffier phenomenon that happens to everyone, whatever your views, and so isn't really a big deal. But... There is a difference, for example, between 1M viewers deciding not to watch Britain's Got Talent and yet Britain's Got Talent continuing as usual (as it should), vs. Nick Buckley (the founder of a charity helping disadvantaged young people in Manchester) being sacked from his job because a small number of people signed a petition after he had raised some arguably very legitimate concerns about Black Lives Matter (a contraversial political movement) and its possible effects on young people's outcomes. So how do these two examples differ, and why is one an example of cancel culture and the other not? The first example is people voting with their feet. No institution steps in to act on that sentiment. No jobs are lost. The show goes on (literally). The second is a very small group of people (I think it was around 400), there is no debate or discussion, a man loses his job instantly and his character is defamed, no mainstream institution rises to his defense, AND the message is sent out to everyone who feels similarly to Nick: You had better not voice your concerns, no matter how strongly you feel about it, or this will happen to YOU. Thankfully around 40K people (I think) signed a petition, and Nick fought back and got his job back. But I personally can attest to the fact that there are many people who feel unable to raise their concerns about Black Lives Matter and whether it is helping or hindering race relations in the UK - for fear of losing their job, etc. I'm one of them! And I'm not white or male (this would be very important to three of the panelists!!!).

[@jimmylemessurier332]

Well said, and explained. This should have been addressed in the debate, and I also noted the staggering ineptitude of Bragg flagging up the Britain's Got Talent complaints as an example of 'cancel culture' being perpetrated, but not recognized as such - hypocritically - by his usual 'right-wing' suspects. The show wasn't 'cancelled', nor would it have been, even if the complaints had been far more numerous. As I said in my post, there was a woeful chasm between Ayaan Hirsi Ali and the other speakers.

[@palvishah89]

But it didn't derail his career - he lost nothing and everyone got to excercise their freedom of speech. Liberal values have not been trundled upon, so what's the problem? You can't expect to excercise your right to say anything and not afford people their right to reply

[@just_another32]

@@palvishah89 He did lose his job! And my point is - this affects ordinary people... people like me (and many others I know) see that and think twice about raising our concerns. This wasn't the case even 10 years ago.

[@fiveleavesleft6521]

@@just_another32 I'm on the Left but have some heterodox opinions and enjoy playing devils advocate. When I hear people like Bragg and Andrews I hear people who are probably unaware of the problem because they never challenge identity politics orthodoxy within Left spaces. If they did (say, challenge the "gender pay gap" narrative in feminist spaces) they would pretty soon get a grasp of what is going on.

[@axe7064]

How ironic that concerns over BLM and it's Political position along with concerns about it's possible damage to Race Relations in the UK and it's outcomes are the same used over 50 years ago to destroy Martin Luther King. BLM has highlighted and educated people on Racial injustice and has been instrumental in the opening of dialogues pertaining to diversity, education and representation. So my guess is you haven't even read the material on their UK website? For if you had genuine concerns these would have been dispelled upon looking and actually READING the many educational articles and academic research and videos that highlight Black issues and call for unity and growth in the Black community.

[@roxee57]

I wish moderators would make clear that free speech doesn’t just mean the freedom to express oneself. It also means freedom from compelled speech, freedom to hear speech, and freedom from compelled hearing of speech. Cancel culture is affecting all of these: people are invited to speak and then can’t because they’re disinvited; people are prevented from hearing a disinvited speaker; people are being compelled to speak under threat of losing one’s job (use this pronoun, admit you’re racist, say say self ID ranswomen are literally women, etc); people are being compelled to listen under threat of losing one’s job (attend this diversity, equity and inclusion training - which is really teaching monolithic thought, inequitable policies based on intersectionality rankings, and exclusion of opinion outside of standpoint Epistemology). It’s all quite Orwellian which any class focused Marxist or free thinking liberal can see from a mile off. The sooner this Woke Critical Social Justice nonsense ends so we can get back to social justice the better.

[@ggamos9831]

Thank you. So very true and hardly ever discussed.

[@lionswimmer4637]

Hear, hear1 Well said.

[@fiveleavesleft6521]

Yes. It's just astounding that the likes of Bragg can't see it.

[@renskev.470]

Thank you. That's an excellent point.

[@bluemouth8066]

I like how Billy complained about lack of nuance and it being about 'them and us' seconds after claiming cancel culture is a right wing chimera.

[@lisabyers6982]

so cool to see Ayaan! read her book "Infidel" and have been waiting to see her on this panel for a while now, thank you!

[@Hello.Sailor]

She has been in quite a few actually, they are all worth checking out.

[@taraelizabethdensley9475]

That ix a facinating book, have you read Prey

[@lisabyers6982]

@@taraelizabethdensley9475 no I haven't! would you recommend it?

[@moonlightray8493]

This debate should've ideally been 2 hours long. The time constraints made the discussion seem way too rushed, or as Christopher Hitchens liked to put it, as if they "barely got their trousers off".

[@alexgibson2871]

Yep, barely gets started..

[@shantanutomar]

Classic hitch-humour

[@wcollier8313]

No, other than Ayaan they just weren't bright enough.

[@jamessheffield4173]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, is a hero to me.

[@sylviavasquez9523]

Frustrating episode. The 2 women had more detailed and superior arguments than the males. But even so, there was too much confusion about 'cancel culture' fallout. Khinde pretended that people were just sharing their views and now the 'oppressors' are getting their just deserts. He's evading the whole recent phenomena of people enduring witch hunts and losing their ability to make a living. I'm all for debate, but not eternal erasure. Khinde was totally contemptuous of the ideas expressed in this debate and just wanted to laugh the whole thing off. He's loving his 15 minutes of fame. He cannot be taken seriously and I feel no urgency to read any of his books. I understand Julie is speaking about hard won rights for female spaces and I support that. I don't think that is inherently trans-phobic, nor do I think people should be allowed to attempt to cancel Rowling, even if it's not easy due to her popularity. Bragg is Bragg--kind of pathetic--a musician who seems like a nice bloke totally out of his element. I'm confused as to why he was invited. He is not able to go up against someone like Ayaan Hirsi who clearly represents the classical liberal view that without speech, there can be no thought and that we cannot preempt speech without paying the price down the road. It seems we have reached the end of that road and are trapped in a cul de sac of our own making. I can't say where this will lead, but the phony left will only serve to fuel the right wing, who love the idea of curtailing speech and human rights. Someone should have reminded the males that censorship always hurts the left much more more than any other group. At least the viewing audience realized the truth and that's a hopeful sign.

[@mmiYTB]

It's really Ayaan against 3 opponents. Julie would be joining those two cancellers if she herself wasn't under the fire from Ts.

[@fizzlerfreeborn5020]

Exactly right!! Ayann is the only person on the panel who understands exactly what is going on and how dangerous it is. Julie is actually part of the problem and just doesn't realise it.

[@just_another32]

Yes which is really interesting in and of itself!

[@kenjifuse2234]

Ignorant comment. Have you read or listened to anything by Bindel?

[@dradango3885]

When has Julie Bindel ever attempted to shut anyone down tho?

[@ebefl]

Good point. Rad fems are all stopped clocks... they’re right about the trans stuff but that’s it.

[@Intelligence-Squared]

Do you agree or disagree with our motion 'Cancel Culture is threatening our Freedoms'?

[@0otee]

Agree

[@muirwoods1969]

Agree

[@Crisstti]

Agree. Free debate of ideas is essential.

[@danielevanni6622]

Quite Frankly - I apologize in advance for the vitriol - the very framing of this debate, as well as the debaters themselves, were utterly disappointing. The dichotomy between "Cancel Culture" and "Freedom of Speech" only makes sense if one ignores the engagement-driven nature of social media, which tends to amplify controversy and extremism. Now, about the debaters: Julie Bindel and Kehinde Andrews are the worst possible choices for representing the positions they supposedly stand in for. The former (Bindel) maintains that the right to free expression is absolute, and yet she denies that pornography and prostitution can be expressions of personal autonomy (she advocates for outlawing both). The latter (Andrews) is simply incapable of articulating an argument for why online hate speech should not be protected under free speech (i.e. because online hate speech is "sticky" and often unduly amplified by internet social dynamics). I nonetheless appreciate the work of IQ2

[@fizzlerfreeborn5020]

Agree 100% Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a treasure.

[@lnt51797]

Aayan ruled this session. Spot-on, on every point. The others tried to make points by twisting minor aspects of the discussion, and lost sight of the issue. They made some compelling points, but not directly relevant to the topic of the day. IQ2 could have found a better debate statement, though, perhaps focusing on the Cancel Culture's relation to First Amendment rights.

[@just_another32]

That would be too America centric in my humble opinion.

[@Blake-Urizen]

UK =/= USA (thank goodness!)

[@just_another32]

@@Blake-Urizen hehe!

[@Blake-Urizen]

@@just_another32 Ethnocentric Americans, alas, have difficulty understanding that their sociopolitical concerns are not paramount to others.

[@ggamos9831]

Let me slightly apologize for my compatriot's UScentric focus.. but I wouldn't cancel him in any event :-) I do have a question.. what is the British equivalent to the 1st amendment of the US Constitution? And is it more comprehensive? Thank you. (And Aayan was breathtaking in her clarity!)

[@iainrae6159]

Thankyou Ayaan, wonderful as always.

[@ximenam8198]

So, let me get this straight, Mr Bragg: as it is glaringly obvious we cannot govern ourselves, or our base passions and wrongthink, we NEED to be limited and controlled as to what we should opine publicly, for the good of the happiness of the state. Long story short: All ideas should be expressed. Perhaps not all seriously considered, and some collectively dismissed as reprehensible, but they should be heard. I DO NOT have the right to not be offended. And I wish to continue being offered the right of freely choosing which ideas to espouse, and which to reject, with no views being censored in a free society. Furthermore, as a person of color, I find it disgusting how the radical left keeps on insisting that I should be perpetually offended, and that I should be coddled and protected because of perceived hardships that they cannot know that I have lived. I am NOT a lapdog. I am NOT a child, unable to hold my own in varied discourse. I can choose for myself, and if something offends me, I can say it, and move forward without the compulsion to crush and silence opinions that do not agree with my own personal life philosophy.

[@Blake-Urizen]

I applaud most of that. """I DO NOT have the right to not be offended."" I think the germane point is that you have every (practical) right to your feelings (offended, delighted, unmoved, whatever), but none of us, particularly bands of self-righteous professional-victims, should be given the power to ruin someone on the basis of sensitivity OR of ethnic or non-harmful behavioral difference.

[@mancheezethegreat8617]

Brilliant comment. Thank you for your view.

[@reddaB]

Ayaan wipes the floor with all of them.

[@balkrishnaparab3353]

I did a debate today with Intelligence Squared. The moderator was an utter moron. He made it clear he was not interested in the substance of the matter. i.e: the philosophy of cancel culture. We were saved by the common sense of the audience. Bravo!

[@hanshton]

just ordered Ayaan's both books

[@BasedNumenorean]

A grim indictment of the state of freedom of speech when one of the debaters who is critical of cancel culture is a rabid feminist who would clearly be on the other side if she herself wasn't being cancelled. Ayan Hirsi Ali thankfully carried that side of the debate all on her own

[@just_another32]

She did indeed!!!!

[@dna598]

Well said. She was a mare.

[@GDKLockout]

I came here after watching the incel one. Is saw Ayaans name and knew she would restore my faith in this channel. Top Lady ❤

[@chagal3299]

Billy bragg sounds like a 19 year old lmao

[@ahmedaldarwish9102]

Thank you, Ayaan Hirsi Ali!

[@ayejax4150]

Julie and Ayaan just smoked the two dudes.

[@DangerAmbrose]

Everybody loves the freedom of speech until someone says something that is offensive.

[@aliasbrush2]

Everyone has to deal with being offended as part of living in a free society where everyone has different views. However, if it is inciting violence or is otherwise extremely harmful, we have LAWS that come into play. If you feel that those laws aren't good enough, by all means discuss bringing in new ones. That the beauty of having free speech!

[@0otee]

I couldn’t react as I had no internet. Ayaan I know your story (I’m From Holland) and I support your view on Cancel Culture is threatening our Freedom❣️👌 It would be anti Human Being’s Nature to Cancel Culture for that would threaten our Freedom as Human Being! Wish you all the best over there and you look good I’m happy for it❤️🌹🌺🌻🌞👌

[@bismSprinting-DerwegzurSchnell]

Ayaan was the best . Objective, rational and stuck to the points on debate. The standard of the other speakers was not up to the mark.

[@BRAUSA]

Thumbs up on the win for the motion. I think the counter arguments were compelling but Aayan and Julie are on the right side of this issue

[@user-gs9kw1pm4n]

Go Julie and Ayaan! They whupped Kehinde and Billy 😁

[@jimmylemessurier332]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the only sane voice here. The other three - Bragg, Bindel and Andrews - are drenched in Critical Theory, which is the elephant in the room in this debate. Their arguments are based on the oppressed/oppressor take on the world. For those three speakers, there is nothing that exists outside of that worldview and they manage (with the necessary amount of applied idiocy) to cram everything and everyone into that paradigm. Every human interaction is viewed through that lens. But we need critical thinking, not Critical Theory. Those two terms might sound they mean approximately the same thing, but they are diametrically opposed. Clearly, the result of the polls before and after seem to bear out this out, although it might not necessarily be because they share the same perspective as the one I expressed. Maybe people are beginning to wake up a bit.

[@ScottNormanRosenthal]

domeone58; Julie Bindel was quite incisive and sensible.

[@jimmylemessurier332]

@@ScottNormanRosenthal Of those three she is definitely the most incisive and sensible, I would agree.

[@wcollier8313]

Bragg can't distinguish between shitposting, harassment, and cancelling those with ideas that some do not like! What a complete waste of space, and time.

[@terrythetuffkunt9215]

The debate between ayaan and douglas murray vs maajid nawaz and that other girl is my favourite debate ever.

[@Zalley]

Billy Bragg opens with an example that was about inappropriate material for prime-time tv - which children watch. This is not cancel culture - it is protecting young children, in this case from the portrayal of a riot and violence (and in addition people wanting to keep their entertainment programs free from politics). The only material adults should be not be able to see or hear are those things already proscribed by current laws.

[@hazardscampaign1766]

Bindel dealt with all of Andrews points before he spoke.

[@petersmith1398]

I have to admit I was wrong about Kehinde Andrews, I thought that he was living in 1950's Alabama but now it appears he is actually in Pre WW2. In his world he has to sit at the back of the bus, use a different water fountain, cannot get a decent job, cannot get into University, although he himself has done both. This is one of the most nausea invoking debate I have listened to, where four people are just all arguing who is the most oppressed. Their simple philosophy is simple "I'm right and anyone who doesn't agree with me 100% is a Racist / Misogynist / Homophobe / Xenophobe ( Circle Your Choice)

[@EIixir]

Ayaan is such an excellent articulate speaker. It felt like 1vs3 in this debate.

[@Red__Law]

Seeing Ayaan cheering the final vote made my day.

[@jamessheffield4173]

We used to defend free speech.

[@ohman6184]

I have lost all respect for Kehinde Andrews. His body language is so telling about how he feels about women and feminism.

[@zwerko]

I'm generally not a fan of Ayaan Hirsi Ali but among these four she's a paradigm of sense and normalcy. The language and emotional pleads the others (incl. Julie Bindel) use instead of arguments is appalling.

[@iainrae6159]

Blimey, apart from the courageous articulate beautiful Ayaan this joyless bunch deserve each other in their soulless silly twittersphere spat world.

[@47nrubreddew]

🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥👍

[@brngsh5549]

Women certainly deserve their own spaces and opinions, whatever some douchebag calls them.

[@muskanthukral9323]

Ayaan hirsi Ali is awesome

[@danniwilder2198]

Kehinde has a chip on his shoulder the size of Big Ben. What a bitter & twisted man.

[@MaggieTheCat01]

Congratulations Ayaan and Julie on that well deserved win. 👏

[@Asarhaddon787]

I support Ayaan Hirsi

[@Eemes1000]

AHA is the only one who has any real understanding of this issue, and she is clearly leagues ahead of the rest intellectually. Bindel clearly doesn't give a damn about freedom of speech and is only on that side because the social justice crocodile is starting to eat her group. Hearing Bragg's take on J.S. Mill not being relevant in the times of Twitter was just painful, and Andrews saying that academia isn't left-leaning demonstrates by itself that he is living in fairyland.

[@just_another32]

I know (last point)!!!!! Academic papers have shown this for anyone who thinks it's all a myth! What a joke!!!!! Scary cognitive dissonance on his part if that's the right term.

[@lillithremedy]

Here after Ayans tweet about the chair

[@scoogsy]

This debate struggled to define cancel culture. There needed to be a much stronger definition up front. Ayaan attempted this, and I think did her best here. It is a combination of two factors in my view: - A view against an orthodoxy is dismissed immediately and claimed to be non-pure - a pile on starts in destroying the persons livelihood, far beyond simply removing a platform, but aggressively undermine the character and opportunity of the person in question

[@iwastoldtherewaspie]

Ayaan was amazing in this

[@NekoShmeko]

Billy Bragg posted a sickening analogy trivialising the Holocaust. That’s ignoring his extreme hatred of women. Please don’t platform him again.

[@robbliss9149]

Cancl Culture is not about aggrieved persons expressing their thoughts, a.k.a. "speaking truth to power", it is about preventing others from speaking and destroying them when they do, even when they said something relatively innocuous years ago. That is, Cancel Culture is about exercising retributive power over others.

[@gomperhooblet]

43:00 Did I just hear Billy Bragg literally ask for a thought police? Incredible

[@forelithe]

well done Julie.

[@forelithe]

@magnetothewhite - live your best life mate

[@pulmo1]

Time to change the name of your show. The moderator could not hide his bias and ignorance. The moderator should be neutral I am deleting my subscription.

[@MK-pt9zt]

Ayaan is the best.

[@just_another32]

Yup!

[@anthonyzav3769]

shhhh everybody be quiet - Ayaan Hirsi Ali is speaking.

[@laika5757]

Ayan is my Guru. God bless her.🙏

[@andrewhansen1896]

Listening to Julie might make you think her only problem with cancel culture is that it isn't canceling enough men. Ayaan is making the philosophic case, and she single-handedly dismantled her opponents.

[@madoxxxx06]

Julie Bindel is a hero

[@BigDadiShagi]

Eww she was easily the worst debater on the panel. She literally only took the “for the motion” side because she herself was being canceled but she repeatedly insinuated she would be fine with other ppl being cancelled. Her ideology is so shallow and self serving.

[@BrandanLee]

The biggest issue with "cancel culture" and deplatforming is that IT IS A TOOL. It doesn't belong to a side or a people, it's a tactic we all share equal access to. And as a tool there is also an argument over its legality, with rules for who gets to use it and when. When you dismiss those rules, it's a free for all. First to crush the other by any means, wins. If it is legal and defensible for YOU to cancel someone, then there is nothing stopping THEM from cancelling you right back, or preemptively. Who do you want to be allowed to cancel? Everyone I hate should be canceled, everyone I like should be free to speak. Who am I saying that of? The right? The left? The center? The fringe? The mainstream? Today it's your heroes, tomorrow it's your enemies. If it's okay for you it's okay for them. You sure you want to do it?

[@woonawoona]

This is an invaluable channel of discourse in a media space that has become polarized echo chambers

[@A.Coe_the_original]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Julie Bindel spoke well but I have to say, neither Billy Bragg nor Kehinde Andrews were particularly incisive. They both disingenuously pretend cancel culture doesn't actually exist, while offering a blast of hot air and irrelevant examples and then talking about how it's good for marginalized people, even though it doesn't exist. In a dynamic familiar to any woman who has ever argued with a man who knew less than she did about the subject being argued about, the men bloviate about what they want to bloviate about, while dismissing the women's cogent, precise arguments, and the women present clearly articulated bullet points. It's so predictable, it's laughable really. Second-rate men blab, loving the sound of their own voices, while first-rate women cut to the chase. The oldest story I know.

[@IceQeen1011]

Julie and Ayaan are my kind of role models

[@alieninthecaribbean]

You cannot love and defend Freedom Of Speech and hate private citizens, private companies or consumers canceling you. Canceling you is THEIR freedom as well. We all have that right to decide what and who we will listen to, endorse, patronize with our money, allow to represent our brands, provide a platform to on our privately owned media or stages. So all the fuss about "Cancel Culture" should be directed at where there is an actual breach of the Human Right To Freedom of Speech/Expression/Belief/Association. That breach happens when you are silenced by THE STATE or punished by THE STATE. That is when your rights are being violated. Not when a company pulls their advertising from your program because you said something their customers deem bigoted. Not when people no longer want to buy your material or a privately owned media channel pulls your content. Not when a private university does not want you to speak there. Freedom of Speech does not mean the right to be popular for that speech or rewarded for it or agreed with or endorsed or patronized or platformed by everyone. Just find your audience and they will support you. Now, if you are being fired or thrown in jail by the Government for speaking your mind on your own private time, on your own platforms or in the public square, then, NOW you have a case of Human Rights Violation people can rally around.

[@helenk3015]

Ayaan hirsi you are an incredible insperation❤️

[@Henry_Smith_862]

Is cancelling cancel culture cancel culture?

[@CortezHoratio]

Well that is the best question I've read on here, hands down. And I've certainly got no answer for it. Makes me think of Popper's paradox of tolerance.

[@Walklikeaduck111]

You cant cancel cancel culture... Its not an institution but a mentality. Cannot be banned as such but needs to be discussed.

[@dennismorris7573]

Another excellent and profound discussion courtesy of Intelligence Squared.

[@SirinxDumplings]

Believe what you may... This is a stellar panel... First time I know everybody in the panel.