Captain Picard and Worf dispute the Iconians.

S02E11

[@Ryoten27]

As someone who fought in the Iconian War of 2409, Worf was right.

[@GrandSupremeDaddyo]

They only became like that *after* their civilisation collapsed IIRC. They were peaceful when they were attacked.

[@chrismanuel9768]

He wasn't. Time exists. At this point, when he says this, he is wrong. Then time shenanigans, intergalactic travel, and retaliatory strikes happen.

[@jonathansotelo4877]

Remember when Iconian probes release a virus that shuts off your ship for five seconds. And then a few years later inbred Klingons designed a virus, that does not need a probe, that makes your ships turn and fight against their enemies AND can make them self destruct?

[@thewewguy8t88]

Was this in star trek online.

[@JackVerse]

Also it was all Sela's fault for pissing them off so much to the point of eradication.

[@channongates6813]

As it turns out, Worf was correct about the Iconians.

[@LordProteus]

Only after the Iconians were attacked first.

[@HRHooChicken]

Worf is right about everything but always get overruled

[@girlgarde]

Actually, the Iconians became hostile because they were attacked and their civilization destroyed by their neighbours PLUS a time paradox led the Half-Romulan Sela to kill several Iconians and take away something valuable to them which drove them to take hostile actions against the "present day" races of the Quadrant. I wonder why the neighbours of the Iconians attacked them? Perhaps Q's son caused them to do it as Q DID say that his son was starting wars between alien races. If he DID do it, then Sela would have some choice words for him.

[@RyanSellman1]

@@girlgarde Maybe that's why Q told his son, as he told him many times, "Don't provoke the Borg!"

[@mindoftheswarm7]

@@girlgarde STO explains it. They neighbours were jealous and eventually committed genocide against them. The survivors then took revenge against all other. STO is canon.

[@mastercheif878]

So from my experience in Star Trek online and my lack of experience in the rest of Star Trek universe ITS ALL SELA'S FAULT

[@SGz_Eliminated]

Even if Sela wasn't there they would have still turned to vengeance and sort to conquer everyone. Your team is responsible for the deaths of everyone the Iconians have destroyed. Without you, they would have perished as is made evident by your helping them retrieve the world heart and activate the escape portal.

[@mastercheif878]

Sam Trott BUT IT WAS HER FAULT SHE KILLED AN ICONIAN

[@SGz_Eliminated]

+AsianMLC the people attacking the planet were the ones commuting genocide and killing all the iconians, the one sell killed is insignificant in comparison, they would have become conquers either way

[@mastercheif878]

Sam Trott yes but it caused hate between the iconians and the rest of the species in the galaxy. this resulted in the destruction of romulus and also the iconian war that single iconian's life yes wasnt as valuable but the killer as being a romulan triggered catastrophe look i just want to kill sela but they never let me

[@Robloxman01]

Except for the fact that the Iconians might have just gone full on genocide anyway. And if your team didn't do what they did, they'd never have had a reason to stop.

[@TheAussieBlue]

Picard raises a lot of good points here, and pursuing the truth of the matter is something I approve of. Still might be a good idea to be ready for combat, just in case. After all, sometimes the history books are right.

[@gwouru]

That's Worf's job, to always be ready for combat, just in case. And that's exactly what he's doing, as head of security, presenting that option to the man in charge.

[@Bubbles99718]

"Ready for combat" That reminds me of "let's move in closer" They do that all the time. Wtf. Why? You have scanners, use'em.

[@ChronoXShadow]

Worf: the voice of reason. Picard: the voice of patience, observation, reason, and understanding.

[@johnw2026]

Also Worf: the voice of a Klingon Warrior.

[@henkman00]

Worf: ''but I thought I was the voice of reason!'' Picard: ''shut up, Mr Woof''

[@emti29]

​@@henkman00 troi's mother to worf: mr. Woof hahaha. 😊

[@Paul-A01]

Has Worf ever been right about anything on this show?

[@JimbobHarrigan1984]

EmperorRyu1 The Alliance has had a few small victories but on the whole they're getting their asses kicked from one side of the galaxy to the other

[@JimbobHarrigan1984]

***** It puts you into a moral dilemma, do you help save them or do you carry on with the genocidal plan to end the war before it even begins?

[@dibbidydoo4318]

+EmperorRyu1 *SPOILERS* It turns out they were good 200,000 years ago but someone turned them warlike after bombarding on their homeworld. It also turns out Sela is responsible for everything the NUtrek universe the supernova and everything after she killed an Iconian angering them.

[@Sython6]

+EmperorRyu1 Yeh buts it's Star Trek Online, the game that is just a MMO with Star Trek ships and no actual diplomacy or reasoning involved just blow stuff up. If you want a game that's closer to Star Trek try Mass Effect.

[@dibbidydoo4318]

Sython6 I don't think that's more like Star Trek...

[@imonlyamanandiwilldiesomed4406]

"History is a set of lies agreed upon" -Napoleon

[@JonatasMonte]

Star Trek has two phases, when they were slim with lycra uniforms and when they've gained weight and started using movie like uniforms. Then there's the jacket phase.

[@TheNoiseySpectator]

So, that's three, not two. You can also see s change in the writing of the show, concurrent with your "phases of uniforms". Or at least, I can see it.

[@Prawnsly]

@@TheNoiseySpectator ugh

[@Mr_T_Badger]

Had nothing to do with weight gain, the Lycra uniforms were apparently uncomfortable as hell and retained body odour like mad. The cast complained so much about them that they switched outfits, and amusingly gave us the “Picard Manoeuvre.” 😋 At least in regards to TNG. Can’t speak for TOS and Shatner’s girdle.

[@andreww2098]

@@Mr_T_Badger They were also so tight that it was causing back and shoulder problems for the actors

[@Mr_T_Badger]

@@andreww2098 that would piss me off.

[@jaydub2971]

"The victors invariably write history to their own advantage" ... and then Stewart looks at the camera at 0:31 to drive the point home.

[@LordsofMedia]

I saw that too.

[@TheNoiseySpectator]

Oh, of course he was also talking to the viewers. He did that throughout the whole series, all starship captains did, that is because they were the heros of the show! 😀 At least of TOS and the shows of the 1990's.

[@TheNoiseySpectator]

But, I think he was being a bit too presumptious (sp = ?) with his dismissal of the Iconian's enemies. He could not be sure of that, based on what they knew at that time.

[@GummyKermit]

Ah I see. So we should look at 1940's Germany from a different light. I will take what you said into consideration and begin my studies

[@vileluca]

@@GummyKermit Start with the american civil war first. It'll blow your mind.

[@wyldelf2685]

""Honestly Jean Luc I think the only reason I come here is for your marvelous speeches"", a great quote from Q , 😸👍 and he's right 👍👍

[@OneEyedKeys]

The Victors do indeed write the history. And as Napolean said: 'History is a pack of lies agreed upon.' It's a shame more people do not read about our own history, regarding the world wars, especially, or the many that came before those. When you go down the rabbit's hole, there are many lies to be discovered, and good and evil are not what propaganda makes them to be.

[@smf5576]

+OneEyedKeys Sad but true.

[@TheOrionStar]

+OneEyedKeys like what?

[@SamuelJamesNary]

OneEyedKeys - That isn't the case in every scenario. It's often used as a catchphrase to try and de-legitimatize many aspects of history. If there is something that someone doesn't like, then they claim the history is only the way it is because the "victors" of the conflict wrote the history. But that isn't always the case. For example, in Vietnam, the history of the Vietnam war says that the wicked and vile imperialists, first the French and then the Americans, came in and tried to impose their tyranny on the Vietnamese people. But thanks to the gallant and heroic Ho Chi Minh and determined and heroic generals like Giap, they were defeated and crushed beneath the heal of a free people... In America, while the history does not claim that America won the Vietnam war, it does not treat the North Vietnamese as heroes. In fact, at the most basic level, the American history of the war treats them as brutal and murderous thugs (which they were) and that the war was only lost due to dissatisfaction at home... And then there is the American Civil War. If one looks closely at the historiography of the war, one will note that the ones who actually wrote most of the histories of the war... were the Confederates. One of the first histories was "The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government" by Jefferson Davis. Many Union veterans wrote their own histories two, but many often echoed many sentiments that the Confederates supported or were memoirs and avoided historical judgement. It's from this that the "Lost Cause" really got going. It wasn't until the 1960s that the historiography of the American Civil War began to lean more toward the North with regard to who was supported.

[@chadasmr8304]

History was determined by the writers.

[@AzguardMike]

look at WW2, the usa and uk did some disgusting things. We broke human right laws to our POW's after the war ended and it got hushed (until recent documents were released)

[@ParakeetWhispererKing]

We need Star Trek the next gen now more than ever.

[@randomdude8202]

It turns out unique side of star trek was due to its genius inventor. We got new shows, but they are just random sci fi with star trek name slapped on it.

[@becausebuzzbomb6133]

2 years later, it's valid even more. But no chance and no dice, no politician wants thinking citizens and the average citizen is more than happy not to think. Humanity needs Picards. Every household should have it's own Picard.

[@ered203]

If anyone has played ST Online, you know. SPOILER ALERT During the 10th (I think) season of STO, the entire Iconian mystery is solved. They literally combined everything in Star Trek canon into one story line. The history, power and circumstances of their fall are explored as well as tying pretty much all of the story lines from the various series to the Iconians. The best part is, though the Iconians are hostile, it is the application of Federation values that bring peace. The only winning choice is to be honest, forthcoming and helpful in the face of overwhelming odds and mistrust. You had to fight your way to get there, but ultimately diplomacy saved the day. It was beautiful and reassuring, especially since JJ Abrams decided that instead of Roddenberry's Federation values, Star Trek should be more like a WW2 movie where everyone is fighting everyone else and it's just chase scenes and explosions.

[@AlfaPro1337]

+ered203 Unfortunately, STO is non-canon.

[@ered203]

Alfa Proto Yeah, but it's fun though.

[@victorgigante5374]

+Alfa Proto Not strictly canon, no, but it is a licensed work. It's as close to canon as we can get unless they do a show in its timeframe.

[@vincentheflin5728]

The mystery isn't solved that's just a game

[@chosenfallen2024]

It was cannon until JJ showed up lol

[@laker4life36]

The Iconians. Classic and Iconic!

[@mattsamoto4451]

This little 37 sec clip relates sooo much to today.

[@ophello]

Imagine if the US had a president as wise as this.

[@tippycanoe99]

Seeing this again, there was that tone of Xavier at the end.

[@davidwong9230]

Well said, Captain Picard, “There is a tendency in many cultures to fear what they do not understand.” Similarly with individuals, I reflect with sadness that I have encountered over the years, some people who consider as “stupid”, others whom they have neither taken the time nor had the inclination to understand.

[@TheFlyingSailorYT]

"There is an unfortunate tendency in many cultures to fear what they don't understand..." Yep... There's Professor X for ya.

[@OneEyedKeys]

Victors do indeed write the history. If only more people realized that, in all cultures, east and west on our planet. The top dogs now, in Europe, Africa, Asia and the middle east, have done some dirty work to occupy such places.

[@vicarofrevelwood]

History is written by the victors! - Napoleon Bonaparte

[@scottythegreat1]

Chancellor Gowron would approve

[@anwarshahaddat3412]

If theres one thing ive learned from tos, tng, voy, ds9, ent is that you have to question everything. especially history and science. the more guarded science and history are the more they must be questioned.

[@Zeakthecat]

In the game "Star Trek Online" the iconians did attack earth and lost.

[@dibbidydoo4318]

+anime gamer and trekkie whos autistic researcher :They used to be good guys 200,000 years ago at the STO episode "midnight" but as it turns out that their homeworld was being bombarded by envious alien races so they escape to gateway and what's really shocking is the Sela the Romulan after traveling back 200,000 years ago in a time portal has killed the Iconian angering them causing her homeworld to be destroyed and she is also responsible for the JJ Abrams Star Trek universe

[@Zeakthecat]

Damien Green i know, when i played that episode i was like "what a twist!" and "wtf?"

[@girlgarde]

Picard was right about how people tend to fear that which they do not understand but he was wrong about the Iconians. The Iconians ARE hostile as they've been mucking things up in the Star Trek Online game......

[@xJacobxHM]

Is that game any good?

[@girlgarde]

Yeah it is and I'd play it but I can't operate the starships properly. The controls are much too complex for me to figure out because the tutorial doesn't properly explain things......

[@jebise1126]

rtyerh trjrje no. best to avoid it. and avoid what they made of iconians there.

[@domoranzi638]

Actually I think the Iconians became hostile because of the destruction of their homeworld 200,000 years ago. That's why the one Iconian came to Qo'NoS to warn the three factions against catching their attention again.

[@domoranzi638]

ryan macdonald Here's a tip (In case you haven't figured it out already), Click and hold the two mouse buttons down to steer the ship/control where your character goes, if you don't want to keep pressing certain buttons for attacks, right click on all of the each of the weapon icons in the large command tray or weapons tray, that will set them to fire automatically.

[@vincentheflin3587]

We Iconians put the probe next to Iconia to stop attacks of starship on our world.

[@iron0xide974]

The victors o war write the history.

[@gwalchafed]

picard is way of his time here

[@namkha209]

Star Trek Online's Iconian: So anyways we started shooting. With hostile intents.

[@erichunsaker4969]

Oh how right you are Picard, both philosophically and according to Star Trek Online (canon until proven otherwise by a show set in timeframe)

[@Gunnar001]

Nope. STO is definitely not canon. Only the TV shows and films are canon. Licensed products like video games, novels, etc are not canon.

[@UncappingBadger]

In STO the Iconians were attacked and supposedly wiped out not because they were conquerors but because the other species wanted their technology, were unwilling to wait for access, and the Iconians were unwilling to share. Much the same way the Federation won't share technology if the race isn't of a high enough maturity to wield it due to the Prime Directive. This and the Iconians (again within STO, and i'm unaware of how close to cannon they stuck when developing this particular campaign) were arrogant in their technological superiority referring to other species with lesser technology as "lesser races". The reasons for them attacking "present day" starfleet and the other races was not because of that attack, but because of the actions of Sela and the theft of their World Heart. Infact, both during the show and in STO the races present for the initial attack on the Iconians are no longer present in our galaxy. So either they were wiped out / died out themselves or they moved on to another area of the universe not known to the Federation.

[@WizzRacing]

Strawman assertion. As history is written by those that Witness it. Not just the winners. It's called anchoring to make an assertion using an assumption. Picard and the writers should know better....

[@DefaultDerrick]

Fallacy fallacy. Calling something a fallacy even though it's not.

[@josephmassaro]

Yes, but you are making the assumption that the witnesses are impartial or honest. Even if I were to grant that point for the sake of discussion, those that gather the witnesses' accounts may not be impartial or honest, but even if I further granted another point, those that disseminate the accounts of witnesses may not be impartial or honest. History, like science, is continuously studied and refined. We may have a view of history that we believe to be correct, but historians, like scientists, continue to examine and evaluate our present conception for facts to support or refute current ideas. It isn't static. Picard's statement may be simplistic and generalized, but history is written by those that came before us and we owe it to ourselves to examine their claims.

[@xandercorp6175]

History is written by the winners. The losers are dead or disenfranchised, and neutral parties don't generally have a front row seat to the events in question.

[@l337pwnage]

+Claude the winners typically murder all the witness that don't agree with them, and reward "witnesses" who testify on their behalf.

[@cjpark5748]

@thegaygaymerchannel yes that is the truth

[@charabotte1]

that was not manual override

[@dingusbingus7463]

Picard throwing out life lessons

[@OganySupreme]

TNG always wanted to show how humanity has evolved for the better and is smarter than Vulcans and Klingons because they think differently, but I think they pushed it a bit too far. Nearly every dispute, any Vulcan or Klingon, especially Worf, is proven wrong. They could have had more variety with this and allowed Worf (while correct in this instance) and other logical characters to be right more often.

[@milliondollarmistake]

Is that humans or just Picard?

[@DavidBarlowDavido01]

Vulcans are clearly generally smarter than humans.

[@truthfulworld846]

Wow

[@azraelknightquest5754]

I can safely say, that when Star Trek Online chose to try to solve the mystery of the Iconians, they completely freakin' ruined it for me. The Iconians themselves were more like some World of Warcraft rip-off, looking like a bunch of fantasy characters hacked into a sci-fi game, with a storyline I didn't find particularly interesting or original. I'm sure many people will counter with comments disagreeing with me, but I'm not speaking for you. I'm just speaking for me.

[@ussbased-a7074]

I like it because it shows that they are so advanced, they look magical.

[@PANTA-Music]

Well, fantasy and sci-fi are not so different right? I mean Star Trek is full of fantasy. It's world of warcraft, but in the future, with more diplomacy than action... Also, you don't bring in the fact that, unlike Star Trek The Next Generation, Star Trek Online is a game. Not only a story is important, but gameplay as well. If there is no fighting, if they don't look interesting or fearing, the joy of gaming is gone.There is interaction needed, visually also as in mobility. Don't forget that Species 8472 also are fantasy aliens. They don't wear any tech, like the Iconians in STO. And ghost-like / higher dimension / alternate dimension species are also a thing. Like the Komar, and the those from the epsiode 'Identity Crisis'. Ofcourse it's your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to that. However, your reason should count for so much other species in the ST franchise...

[@erentheca]

You can speak for everyone - STO took away everything interesting from the Iconians and made them just another galactic threat.

[@Colyo62]

bet picard felt awfully dumb when they blew romulus

[@EVAUnit4A]

+Colyo "Laddie, don't ya think ya should... rephrase that?"

[@blackenblood21]

Ironic.

[@davemiller6055]

And what if you assume they are peaceful, but they are not?

[@oolooo]

0:24 Funny , an Englishman just described the Black Legend and England's cultural and historical colonialism of the Hispanic World .

[@vincentheflin5728]

That is just a iconian Outpost and the Federation should listen to Picard's words our enemy attack or Outpost not our Homeworld

[@invertedpolarity6890]

When Star Trek didn’t suck.

[@gabrielvazquez7147]

No, Worf is right. The Iconians were blood-thirsty monsters that terrorized peace-loving races from one side of the Galaxy to the other. What a great day it was when they were finally wiped out by that supernova. Damned Iconians.

[@MatthewBluefox]

The only bad Iconian was T'Ket, the others were actually not bad, just badly influenced until made known by Starfleet that the humans were the "others" who saved them.

[@francisshortjr]

Actually the iconians did look like demons

[@RBweb24]

Where the iconians the inspiration for the ancients in the Stargate universe?

[@1337penguinman]

Star Trek Online: Nope. They're villains.

The episode was written in 1988. At the time, the authors had no intention of portraying the Iconians as malicious.

[@foxxojones4757]

And the Iconians in Star Trek Online only became malicious because they were attacked and nearly driven to extinction; and lost a device important to them that would've allowed them to rebuild their civilization. They may have done a lordship over "Lesser races" thing but they did not intend to use said races for Slavery or intended to exterminate them, they planned on eventually raising every race they encountered to their technological level, but their lorded over species, jealous and angry that the Iconians would not share all their Technology; as well as their "You're not ready yet" attitude, began a War of Extermination, against the race they would later call "The Demons of Air and Darkness." to aquire the technology they were not able to get by force.

[@r0bw00d]

Subtle name for the race, there, guys.

[@lilaclunablossom]

I don't get it but ok

[@jesseberg3271]

"The victors invariably write the history to their own advantage..." except in the case of the US Civil War. Here, somehow, the losers got to write the history for almost 150 years and we're still trying to clean up the mess that left.

[@BladeOfLight16]

Right, the Confederates wrote the history where they're all evil slave owners who deserved to be drug out into the street and shot. 🙄

[@jesseberg3271]

@@BladeOfLight16 no, that's the real History that was obscured for 150 years behind lies about States Rights and insistence that nobody ask which rights those states were fighting for because it _definitely_ wasn't the right for some humans to own others.

[@BladeOfLight16]

@@jesseberg3271 Do you know anyone who was taught that slavery wasn't the main reason for the Civil War? Because I don't. And even though some people argue that the Civil War was ultimately over what things the federal government could compel the states to do, I still don't know anyone who doesn't know the issue of that conflict was slavery. So you're spouting nonsense. None of that history was ever hidden from anyone.

[@jesseberg3271]

@@BladeOfLight16 I guess you didn't go to school in the south. I took public school Social Studies classes in both Georgia and Virginia in the 1990s. Both taught variants on the Lost Cause myth, with endless babble about "States Rights" and refusal to confront the horrors of slavery. If you're too young to have seen that, good for you, and if you lived in a state that didn't lie about it, good for your state. But don't kid yourself, this was how it was taught across the South for generations, and if it has stopped, it only did so very recently.

[@BladeOfLight16]

@@jesseberg3271 I went to public VA schools in the 90s, too. Never saw anything like that. Learned all about how terrible slavery was, how people were beaten and marred. I still remember some of the pictures in our textbooks. But we also learned how the North wasn't some kind of racism free paradise. Blacks were just as hated there as they were in the South. The historical truth is that most people aren't great people, but some people leave the world a little bit better than it was before they were there. They don't get rid of every evil, but if they can get rid of just some, we can honor them for that accomplishment without supporting everything they ever did. We don't need to sit in judgement and spit on everyone in history, nor do we have the right or the virtue to do so.

[@adamstringer7092]

The victor does not always write history. A lot of what we know about the Vikings comes from accounts by people that the Vikings raided. Most information about the Persian empire comes from the Greeks because the Persians did not have written language.

[@lilaclunablossom]

He didn't say they "always" do. In fact I doubt almost anyone in old Star Trek would be presumptuous enough to make that statement

[@emersonmacintosh7673]

You should fear what you don't understand. Then you approach it cautiously until you determine there's nothing to fear. Or there is something to fear and you're better prepared for it.

[@mayaenglish5424]

There is a difference between Caution and Fear. Caution in the face of the unknown is just good sense, Fear, on the other hand, is limiting at best and debilitating and damaging at worst. Caution is neutral, Fear is negative. Caution slows you down in order to make you think, Fear Is all about knee jerk reactions and satisfying base impulses, it closes your brain from thought. So, no you shouldn't Fear what you don't understand.

[@We_Are_Borg_478]

Every democrat AND republican need to watch this.

[@thebookwasbetter3650]

Dispute? Worf barely gets in one sentence. Are they married now?

[@dominic.h.3363]

I miss the good old days when sci-fi storylines were about reciting clichés in a futuristic setting. Today it's all betrayal and death and explosions and shit. But mostly shit.

[@MrPicklerwoof]

Although I really like TNG, it did rather lecture the audience at times.

[@NeogreenPeaches]

The worst case of this that i can remember was an episode about trans people or something along those lines. The way they tried to deliver their message in that episode was so ham fisted it felt insulting.

[@TheNoiseySpectator]

@Drew Kestrel me, too. Such a "lecturing" would be easy to over do, but I didn't think they went too far with it.

[@TheNoiseySpectator]

This "Lecturing" showed something else I liked about the Star Trek serieses that I didn't realize until it was absent in STD; The Captain (or Station Commander) was the Hero of the show! Not just the primary protagonist, but actual hero. Call me old fashioned if you wish, but I miss shows with that quality.

[@mirrortoyourweakness9769]

YOU NEED it.

[@lilaclunablossom]

@@NeogreenPeaches Of course the example everyone's gonna go to SO HAPPENS to be about trans people -- just because you hate us.

[@captainmw8885]

"There is an unfortunate tendency in many cultures to fear what they do not understand!" Ain't that the truth!

[@Bubbles99718]

Self preservation is a strong element

[@MrBottlecapBill]

I get Picards point, but to be fair. How COULD you trust a race who invented such technology? Or a race of shape shifters who can appear to be anyone for that matter? We all know that there are always individuals who break the rules, regardless of what their leaders agree to. Even though history is written by the victors, there's usually a little truth that both sides still deny. More than likely some iconians DID abuse the technology for personal gain, prompting the response from the other races. Of course the Iconians thought they were victims and the other races thought they were victims and it ended up bloody. That's usually how it happens.

[@brianbaldino3496]

Kirk's way is better

[@Archedgar]

Worf is right, as usual.

[@danielblair4413]

Why is Worf being so negative against conquers in this scene when his own people are conquers?

[@jebediahkerman8245]

Because Worf is not a typical Klingon. Not all people of the same race have identical values.

[@theharbingerofconflation]

As a german I whole heartedly agree.

[@TheRealmDrifter]

Instinct is a lie, told by a fearful body, hoping to be wrong.

[@solarisone1082]

Son Goku wouldn't agree with you.

[@dzvfarsfdszvfvf7922]

To anyone debating: CBS defines "canon" as anything that's "appeared on-screen". This means STO is canon unless a future show or film contradicts it.

[@kathic6402]

+Dzvfars Fdszvfvf I don't think that many people will agree that Star Trek Online is canon.

[@rhyswatkins7545]

+Kathic The destruction of Romulus is canon. Though it appeared in that alternate time line J.J. Abrams film. Nero creates the second, alternative time line by destroying Vulcan in revenge.

[@kathic6402]

Ginger Boy-Watkins That doesn't mean that STO is considered canon.

[@CaptPatrick01]

+Dzvfars Fdszvfvf Take advantage of the empty space in the lore and fill it; more or less.

[@bremer1701]

+Dzvfars Fdszvfvf maybe you shouldn't just pick the part that you want to read. The same sentence also states " ...- either in one of the six television series or in one of the twelve Star Trek movies." STO is neither a TV Show nor is it a movie and therefore it is not canon. It is soft canon and soft canon is something that can and will be changed by new movies or shows (as you even statet with your last sentence)

[@OneEyedKeys]

Relate Picard's word's here to the World Wars and to the last 300 years of world history and you may begin to have an understanding of it...in small part. The victors do indeed write the history, and we have been subject to it.

[@ckmoore101]

... in many cultures..... An obvious dig at humanity. Thats my one big beef with this show. They portray us (humanity, circa now), as unenlightened brutes. Always talking about how they (humanity, Star Trek timeline) are so much more evolved, no more wars, hunger, famine, capitalism abandoned... etc. All of a sudden, greed is gone. And we're supposed to believe everyone does what their heart desires, no need to make money to survive, doing basic services for a wage. Free to concentrate on bettering humanity, and yourself..... Give me a break. Like there would be thousands of people that are still plumbers, for free.... for the betterment of humanity. Because even in the future, people will still shit, because there will not be transporters in the bottom of your toilet/drain.

[@tadimaggio]

If "the victors invariably write the history" (and I'm sorry -- I admire Patrick Stewart offscreen, Captain Picard onscreen, and "Star Trek: The Next Generation" in general -- but that motheaten cliche is no truer now than it was whenever it was first uttered), then why does "The Iliad", written by a Greek (or a series of Greeks) portray the Trojans as being at least as good as the Greeks? (Hector, the Trojan hero-of-heroes, comes off as far BETTER than Achilles, his Greek counterpart). Why did Euripides (a Greek) write "The Trojan Women", which savages the Greeks for their vicious treatment of the Trojan War's survivors? Why did Aeschylus (another Greek) write "The Persians", which portrays the royal family of Persia (Greece's deadliest enemy by far) so sympathetically? And, closer to home, why do such a large portion of Americans (not all of them Southerners, by ANY means) still believe, 155 years after Appomattox, that the wrong side won the Civil War? History isn't written by the victors, or, for that matter, by the losers. It's written by posterity, which, once the passions of a given conflict have had time to cool, researches the past as best it can, and then draws the conclusions that seem appropriate. (And yes, that results in multiple differing views of the same events. That's what you ALWAYS get with us contrary humans, unless some faceless bureaucrat from the Ministry of Truth is on hand, to enforce a single "right-thinking" opinion). Unfortunately, an accurate view of the past (or the present, as far as that goes) requires, among other things, that one accept the proposition that men and women are woven from "a mingled yarn, good and ill together", as Shakespeare said. Since we have decided, idiotically, to believe that all people are either coal-black or lily-white, with no nuances, subtleties or complexities, our chances of truly understanding pretty much anything is nil.

[@Veridiano02]

Piccard when meeting an Iconian: My insticts tell me we may have gotten wrong. People fear what they don't understand Me playing in STO meeting an Iconan: FIRE EVERYTHING!!!!!

[@erentheca]

I really hate how STO retconned this entire scene. This scene was emblematic about the best of TNG and Trek in general, and STO reversed it for the sake of a war plot.

[@VestedUTuber]

Did it really, though? Picard's statements are specifically about the Iconians before and during the massacre of Iconia. Having most of their kind slaughtered and the few that survived betrayed by one of the people who were helping them massively changed their outlook. I get the feeling that people who think that STO just retconned this didn't actually play through the whole arc. Most of this stuff was explained in the final mission of that arc.

[@thehantavirus]

the game is non-canon

[@Theorcman2008]

lolaz wabby No it IS CANON CBS has said this themselves.

[@Theorcman2008]

lolaz wabby sto.gamepedia.com/Star_Trek_Online_Canon?cookieSetup=true Heres your proof.

[@bensmith5064]

+Theorcman2008 erm...that proof you need to read "what is considered canon ON STOWIKI, as in, what is considered canon within the confines of STO and STO only. Also they said STO is soft canon, aka all events in sto can be contradicted and made false by future trek publications - also mentioned on the exact same link you posted. You sir need to read and comprehend AFTER you take off those rose tinted glasses. Sooooo, yeah your point is entirely empty without any true weight. Soft canon is by definition of havign to be called 'soft' = Not Canon.

[@Theorcman2008]

ben Smith Its canon period. Soft canon IS canon. Its not (NON canon) its soft meaning it can be changed later but anything can be changed no matter what it is.

[@LordProteus]

@ben Smith Soft canon is still canon. Events from the game will be rendered non-canon only when something considered hard-canon contradicts it, either outright statement, visibly showing events or even implication. @Random Guy from Texas At the very least, the people handling Star Trek Online care more about Star Trek than anyone involved in Discovery and the modern films.

[@RubbinRobbin]

The same can be said about the Nazis and The Allies, western civilization.

[@Dabhach1]

Ah, yes. The old "people fear what they don't understand", refrain. The national anthem of the smug and the self-satisfied, usually sung when they need reassuring that they are, indeed, superior to their fellows.

[@smf5576]

I'm guessing he's one of those ignorant Christians who hate that they are being proven wrong about a great many things. They lash out instead of educating themselves.

[@Dabhach1]

Scott Fetterman So educate me, oh superior one. Explain what it is that you've discovered that no previous generation has ever thought of.

[@smf5576]

Joe Francis Considering your hostile attitude, I hit the nail on the head. It was just a guess on my part. All you had to do was tell me if I was right or wrong. Turns out, i'm likely right.

[@Dabhach1]

Scott Fetterman So, that would be nothing, then. You haven't discovered anything we didn't already know. You just assume that whatever it is you believe is novel because it's YOU, and you're the smartest little boy in the whole wide world.

[@smf5576]

Joe Francis Considering Christians DON'T think rationally AT ALL, I'll take that as a compliment.

[@permavirgin3595]

Wtf Picard denies the holocaust?!

[@zethcader6478]

What?

[@VestedUTuber]

How the fuck did you come to that conclusion?

[@VestedUTuber]

@@mf_rat Ok, but how do we go from that to "Picard denies the holocaust, an event _completely unrelated to the Iconians,_ simply because he doubts that the Iconians were actually conquerors"?

[@VestedUTuber]

@@mf_rat There's a reason questioning the holocaust isn't socially acceptable - it was a terrible atrocity and there's enough recorded evidence and eyewitness accounts to prove that it happened. It's also not the only historical event that isn't socially acceptable to question, it's just the most notable. It's a completely different situation compared to whether the Iconians were conquerors or unfairly demonized. Picard isn't taking a highly controversial and unfounded stance that challenges directly recorded events, he's simply challenging the common consensus based on accounts written by civilizations that since went extinct before modern humans even learned how to cultivate and grow crops. A far better real-world equivalent would be someone questioning whether accounts of Caligula's atrocities were actually valid or simply made up by the guards who assassinated him.

[@VestedUTuber]

@@mf_rat "Can you name other historical events that aren't acceptable to question?" In just the 20th century alone? Besides the Holocaust, there's the genocide of the Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians by the Ottoman Empire, both world wars in general, the fall of the Russian Empire and the rise of the USSR in the wake of WWI, the development of many technologies including electronics, rocketry, aviation and modern medicine, the Great Depression and its effects on the world... that's just a small list. "Also what are the unfounded stances?" What they are is not relevant to my point. My point is that Picard's questioning of the Iconian's treatment of other civilizations is far more comparable with someone questioning whether a classical-era despot was actually a despot based on a limited number of ancient historical accounts, rather than to someone denying the occurrence of a well-documented atrocity.