Caravan Weight Check Failure and how did I Subsequently get a GTM Upgrade?

I have been on a journey!
The long and winding road from understanding nothing about caravan and tow vehicle weights, to my current journey “stop off’ point where I at least know enough to know…that I need to know more!
I am one of the thousands of people who have never owned a caravan in their life. In my case I have never towed anything before, not even a trailer to the local rubbish tip! I tried to research the issues surrounding weights before I bought my first caravan, but I found the information available online to be confusing and contradictory. The dealer I bought the caravan from was utterly useless and provided zero help and information.
So I found myself buying a JB Gator X caravan to tow behind my Land Rover Discovery 5. The Land Rover has a towing capacity of 3500Kg, and the Gator X had an ATM of 2800Kg, so I thought I was sorted…
How wrong I was!

[@matteasterby8743]

Yes, it is an issue with the Gator X. I have just taken mine into Cruisemaster who have upgraded the suspension and brakes, so the ATM is now 3T. FYI the 2024 Gator X now has this setup- as standard.

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes it takes the manufacturer quite a while to catch up with real world issues

[@Africoz2]

Great vid, and once again highlighting how the caravan manufacturers are having a lend of us when it come to tare weights etc. Unfortunately, a lot of folks just don't want know about weight limits lest it force them to change their big travel plans with their shiny new superannuation payout. There are some hideously overweight rigs out there on the road, with ma and pa kettle oblivious to the fact they are a danger to themselves and to other road users. You've done your bit to highlight the issues, so well done. Safe travels!

[@4and2Vanning]

Thank you

[@ladysusanjane2682]

Not sure calling people ma and pa kettle is helpful. There are a lot of younger people out there travelling who have overweight car/van combinations, not just older travellers. I’m not in the older category but I just don’t understand why blaming one group of people is helpful. The discussion itself is similar to my current issues. I had to pay for an ATM upgrade and luckily the chassis and axles could handle it otherwise we would be buggered and have to sell it (single axle like yours).I wish the caravan industry was regulated🤦🏼‍♀️

[@highcountryrob5534]

Wow.Sending you a revised compliance plate after you’ve spent over $100,000 on a new caravan.More regulation of the caravan industry is required and heavier penalties implemented for misleading/incorrect information supplied to the customer.Hopefully,more people will do their home work before laying down their hard earned cash.Happy caravanning.

[@4and2Vanning]

Totally agree. The industry is a shambles!

[@holgermuller2987]

Mate, you are not alone…. All of them cheat on weights… the manufacturer who cheat should be all fiend heavily. Cheers

[@DiHandley]

A very topical video and a subject that I need to address with my new van. Cheers.

[@4and2Vanning]

Glad it helped…

[@twotassiedevils]

Great video. You're so right, and it is extremely frustrating. Good to see you were able to get a new plate for it from JB.

[@4and2Vanning]

And…I have not found I can also get an ATM upgrade 😀

[@gailrogers7644]

Thanks for the info you are absolutely right the caravan industry needs to lift its game as to get this wrong can be very costly not to mention if someone is hurt.

[@4and2Vanning]

The industry is a shambles really and in dire need of regulation

[@robthorburn6298]

Thanks very much for that. We have also bought a Gator X and as you are concerned about teh difference between the Tare and GTM

[@shanenorwell8580]

Being told to just travel with water tanks empty is purely a Band-Aid. Absolutely ridiculous. Unless you go from caravan park to caravan park that’s completely useless.

[@4and2Vanning]

Agree entirely, but it seems I am not the first or last to be given this advice!

[@jactoaust]

Hi guys, I am in the same predicament. Weighed my Gator X a couple of days ago with my 2020 Landcruiser that is kitted out with with everything you can think of and a GVM upgrade to 4015kg. My weighing for the van showed similar numbers to yours but my ball weight was a little lower at 323kg. My Gator X is fitted with the ATX Level 4 system and 300 amp electrical system. In effect my van was 123kg overweight but... my Landcruiser was 395kg overweight on the rear axle and this is not going to be a cheap, easy fix for me and is going to cost me around $2k to reduce the size of the fuel tank and the dollars will soon add up and denigrate the vehicle to a point of not being suitable for the off grid, off road travelling I originally intended. I do know people that have had an ATM upgrade on Gator X to 3080kg but this will not fix my problem with my car's rear axle being so grossly overweight. What a dilemma.

[@4and2Vanning]

What a bugger! Yes its a bloody minefield. The best advice I can give you is to not try “band aid” fixes, you will always run into weight problems in the future.

[@jactoaust]

@4and2Vanning. Yes I don't do band aid fixes and that is why I will be learning a very, very expensive lesson because I cannot afford to buy a Ram or even have somewhere to park one🤣

[@matteasterby8743]

I have the same issue on my 300 series where I am 60Kg over on the rear axle. I have the JMACX 3800 GVM upgrade which I will have to now move to the 4200 GVM to fix the issue - not cheap.

[@4and2Vanning]

@matteasterby8743 Yea the issue of weights in particular rear axle load is one the catches all of us out!

[@rayg1232]

Great video. Very interesting that jb ( which we have brought our van from DRX and will be delivered in Feb after many months of waiting) had no problems in providing you a new complication plate😏😏😏 ? The whole of the caravan industry needs a total look at! as they all appear to have their own rules……! We’re new to this caravan thing! And its extremely confusing and caravan sales people appear not to know to much about this weight staff!,, good luck mate. I have a 22 dmax and I hope we’re ok? 😅😅😅😅

[@4and2Vanning]

The industry is a shambles really. If you let me know your van ATM and ball weight and your Dmax payload and rear axle load I can run the calculations for you

[@NoelMcdougall-tw7do]

Great clip on the subject of weights, the industry has a lot to answer for, I was in the market to buy a van I paid a deposit then when I question some of the items in the van were not considered in the overall van weight.

[@4and2Vanning]

The industry is currently a shambles, and the only action we as consumers can take is to educate ourselves and question everything. We have to hold the manufacturers to account

[@NoelMcdougall-tw7do]

thanks, your correct, by the way they would not refund the deposit @@4and2Vanning

[@4and2Vanning]

Then in that case use Accc to take them to task using Australian Consumer Law, but more importantly, have them and shame them. Use the power of social media to your advantage. Most manufacturers/dealers are terrified of the damage to their brand, that social media can cause. Get your story out on as many FB groups as you can

[@johnpolt2383]

Super video I'm just in research mode and I thought tare weight would include everything except water in your tanks, sounds like more on my check list, thanks

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes make sure you check everything in the weights spectrum. Caravan manufacturers like buyers to focus on the “goodies” etc and in my opinion deliberately down play this massive issue of weights, which will become extremely important once you start travelling and towing.

[@Drdiesel.]

Diesel Doctor, Hi i own a Supreme caravan and ran into the same problems as you, I weighed the caravan on way home when i purchased it empty,weight way over left about two hundred kgs for everything, Contacted Supreme and after a prolonged fight and production of rego papers they were wrong, stilled cost me close to $1000 to get new compliance plate, Second time still not enough payload Supreme require inspection by service agent,blue slip then $500 for new compliance plate, just over $1000 for the exercise and alot of stress. You were lucky with JB

[@4and2Vanning]

That is ridiculous! These manufacturers and the industry in general have a LOT to answer for. My real concern with the increase in people buying and towing caravans is that I am genuinely trying to understand all this stuff, and do the right thing and I am finding it difficult not only because of the conflicting and contradictory information, but also seemingly because of misinformation, and your unfortunate example highlights this misinformation. Only you will know whether this misinformation was deliberate or not? So if I can’t fully understand all this stuff…how will the typical new consumer understand it when even the dealers and manufacturers don’t understand???

[@ThePowerWizard]

Thanks, have just bought a new Hilux and a new single axle off road van, not as yet had them weighed …..will be interesting. Jerry

[@4and2Vanning]

I would strongly suggest you get a full weight check done ASAP, and make sure you weigh your van tare weight as soon as you pick it up.

[@jorjimaco5331]

They can’t cheat anymore!!!! Every caravan Manufacturer are accountable for all defects as of July 2022. So any problems just drive it straight back and charge them x amount per day for inconvenience. And if it gets nasty… advertise there fantastic ability in the magazines they show case their vans. I bet it’s fixed the next day.

[@4and2Vanning]

It depends on the definition of “defect”. In my case the caravan doesn’t have any defects, but suffers from a poor design and specification, and possibly an inaccurate tare weight on the compliance plate, but there are no defects which the ACCC would bet interested in, in fact the build quality is excellent.

[@Sabumnim666]

They certainly do have some questions to answer on this subject and quite a few more. The other group that has some questions to answer is the car manufacturers as seems ridiculous as to how small the GVM is in a car which cost over $100,000 and a simple pre first registration GVM upgrade can in most cases fix the issue, so why not do it from the get go? The American system allows for many variations from the manufacturer and we get basically one per model.

[@4and2Vanning]

Exactly so. The industry is in dire need of some common sense regulations and standardisation

[@HughSmith]

I just spoke to JB and they confirmed that they weigh the van with everything complete.... Mattress, TV, Cook top etc are included in the GTM.

[@4and2Vanning]

It’s more important that they weigh correctly for the tare weight

[@philby1979]

some European cars also have a lighter ball weight than you expected when normally the 10% rule we got caught out with out X3 as they only have a 100kg ball weight even though they can tow 2000kg the trailer empty was 150kg so had to upgraded the car or not get the camper we ordered...

[@4and2Vanning]

Exactly so…and some American cars have a heavier ball weight rating and their norm is 13% to 15%.

[@JustcruznRob-AlanaBuick]

Be careful, if your unfortunately involved in an accident. My understanding is that insurance companies automatically assume full water tanks, even if they aren’t. If that is the case, you’re overweight, uninsured and the information provided by the weighing company is incorrect. Well done for calling out the manufacturer though. Cheers Rob

[@4and2Vanning]

Hey Rob…Where have you heard that from? That would be incredible if it’s the case. In my situation it means I could almost never get my weights to be legal as I would always have to have full water tanks, or leave sufficient leeway to fill them!

[@JustcruznRob-AlanaBuick]

@@4and2Vanning was advised when we had our Supreme Territory weighed professionally and had similar issues to you in relation to payload. We had a single axle 17.6 Offroad Territory. I’m sure I also read it in an article relating to caravan accidents at some stage over the last couple of years, don’t quote me though. Would be best to check with your insurance company, that’s the only way to be certain. Sorry, thought it best to just let you know I had a different response from the company that weighed our van. There are a lot of stories going around about rules, regulations etc. in the industry & then you have all the experts on social media 😂. Keep up the great travels and stories.

[@pjmbarlick]

@@JustcruznRob-AlanaBuick Thanks Rob…I’ll check with insurers and report back, but I agree strongly with you, there is so much conflicting and contradictory information out there on this issue of weights, it’s ridiculous.

[@holgermuller2987]

Hi guys, Are you serious that somebody is building a 17.6‘ off-road van on a single axle.? That is in my understanding a crime and from the start a cheat. Done the math before buying.. The best available axle system Cruisemaster ATX on air max out 2800kg ATM. Tires and rims for 2x1400kg axle load is no problem to find With a max allowed ball weight of 350 Kg would make 2,450kg allowed for the van with all in. Wow….what was the tare weight of the 17.6 van? Payload min 750 kg, better 1000kg. ???!!! I went down that pathway and ended up with a single axle 13.4’ poptop off-road van where the tare weight was on the plate with some 1850kg. But … The van came from factory with some accessories which weighted 300kg plus… Guess what? To be legal with filled fridge and some summer cloth for 2 pax: water tanks 240 ltr nop empty, 2nd spare wheel, nop taken off, 2x 20ltr Jerry can on draw bar, nop, 2e bike nop, Ball weight already 350 kg with the large tool box and 2x11kg gas bottles. Ok Weber Q1000 include… Missing min 400kg payload for the water and e bike and some others. By all mean, the regulation body in Australia needs to step in and change to some simple and clear rules first. It cannot be that the producer get away with weighing empty shells and don’t count in the accessories fitted to the vans. And worse leave the customer stranded with the issue not to be legal or recommend not to fill the water tanks. Who is not going to fit on an off-road van solar panels, aircon, charger systems added battery bank.???. Ok, may that’s a bit long but maybe helps others Cheers

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes Holger…our JB Gator X is a 17’ 10” van with an ATM of 2800Kg as you correctly say, limited to 2800Kg ATM as per Cruisemaster specifications. The compliance plate says Tare weight is 2288Kg, but I have no idea what was included in that tare weight, and whether it is accurate. My van was configured and built slightly differently to “standard” and has twin single beds instead of a double with extra cupboard in between the beds. I have no way of knowing this, but I suspect the plated tare weight did not take this into account, and this configuration is contributing to the heavy weight and heavy ball weight. I am no engineer, but in this single axle van the full Enerdrive battery system is under one bed, and both water tanks are forward of the axle which I believe will also contribute to heavy ball weight. Even if the tare was 2288Kg that leaves just over 500kg for “payload” which if both 95 litre water tanks were full would only leave 317Kg real payload to accomodate gas, spare tyre, interior fittings, bedding, clothing, food, cooking utensils, outdoor canvas, outdoor chairs etc…all of which we keep to a minimum! I am more and more coming to the view that a 500Kg “payload” is nowhere near sufficient for a modern “fully off road” caravan, and in our configuration, I don’t believe we even have that! I also believe that any “heavy” single axle caravan will have a higher than normal ball weight (280Kg or more) which when applied as a “load” to the car rear axle, with the 1.5 multiplier will take 420Kg from your tow vehicle available rear axle load capacity. The irony is, in my case I bought this caravan to try and keep all my weights and load relatively modest. I would have been better off buying a bigger twin axle heavier van which would have given me a larger payload, and a lower tow ball weight!!!

[@Wilbargosh]

I don’t understand why people don’t accept responsibility for their own adult education and study the requirement for towing! If your vehicle and trailer won’t meet your requirements and work within legal limits, don’t buy them and don’t use them. Invest in quality equipment fit for purpose……

[@4and2Vanning]

Well firstly, there is no “adult education” that provides definitive tuition on the requirements for towing, or if there is it is very well hidden! Secondly, in the absence of such, the education and knowledge sought and needed, as in most things in life these days, is provided by the manufacturer/reseller (seriously lacking/misleading), the many and confusing proliferation of web sites and forums (contradictory and confusing), research on government publications (sparse and confusing)…or by talking to those more experienced either in person or on-line (contradictory/confusing/biased…and in some cases just plain arrogant!) In my case, all the quality equipment I have will work within legal limits and is promoted and sold as such…however, I have learned through my increased experience, which by definition, is not an adult education source available at the time of purchase that it is has serious limitations which may render it not “fit for purpose”! Your overall sentiment in your comment is however spot on point! There should be a definitive, clear source of adult education on the requirements for towing, which should allow prospective caravan owners to validate their purchasing decision against all the towing requirements before proceeding. There is not, and that is an industry failing.

[@Rustycarr59]

"getting away from it all" or taking it all with you.

[@richardcousins7365]

Great video a real eye opener. Was it expensive to get the car and van weighed properly

[@4and2Vanning]

About $240

[@shaynefletcher6681]

Yes its a rort..I have been doing alot of research on thie subject of weights.. My second hand Jayco Outback i just bought , when the numbers are crunched i realised , has a payload of 199kg..Water tank , battery and gas bottle = 120kg.. 79kg left ??? Thats on compliance plate numbers may be different on scales ? No solar panel, no extra gas bottle , no extra water tank , no racks , no extras , only one small 80ah battery...........Shame on caravan builders....Just a note , a full 9kg gas bottle actually weighs around 17kg..120ah gel battery average around 35kg.. A litre of water weighs a kilo..

[@4and2Vanning]

Yep the manufacturer go out of their way to mislead us..and if we haven’t done good research we get into these problems

[@trevslyf3827]

Hi, can I ask what the tare of the van is as plated?

[@waynekerry2115]

GTM is the weight over your axle (axles if duel) ATM is total weight (axle + ball) and can’t be exceeded even though the ball weight is carried by the car This can be a real problem

[@4and2Vanning]

Thanks Wayne, yes I understand that is the case. In my case the Gator X is a single axle van which is a major contributor to the ball weight issue.

[@waynekerry2115]

Have you looked into an ATM upgrade they are pretty easy to do and you will probably find a JB caravan will have a substantial a frame and chassis You already have your GTM ungraded so should be a tick and flick

[@pjmbarlick]

@@waynekerry2115 Thanks Wayne…Yes getting ATM upgrade from 2800 to 3080 in November 😀

[@Bandits_68]

Thanks so much for your informative video. I am just about to put a deposit on a new Gator X today. I will be asking the sales Person to add the 100kg to my van before i hand over my money. Thanks again. PS- Can I ask for your overall review on the Gator X.

[@4and2Vanning]

Gator X was great, but as a single axle van it suffered from the heavy tow ball weight and small payload. Other than that it’s a great van

[@kevinkitchen3351]

I am of the belief van manufacturers should be compelled to declare the vans 'wet weight' meaning the weight with full gas tanks, full water tanks, full jerry cans, (if jerry cans fitted) & therefore provide the actual running weight of van. This declaration should also provide the wet weight towball force. There are countless stories identical to your's. Thankfully you weren't finding this out post accident investigation as it would have been uglier. Once you as the driver take your rig on the road you now hold the responsibility to be compliant with the relevant laws and being naive is not a defence. We looked at a JB but we recognized early their lack of payload for their weight. JB, what have you got to say on the topic?

[@4and2Vanning]

I agree 100% with you. In fact I would go further and say every dealer/distributor should have a member of staff who can do mobile weighing with the appropriate equipment, and as part of the “hand over” process the van should be weighted to ensure the Plated weights started by the manufacturer are accurate.

[@simonhoffman3568]

Didn't realise you had already discussed this. Tare weight = weight of Container (Van, with 1 gas bottle) without goods or packaging. Nett weight = Total weight of goods and packaging. (Not including Tare) Gross weight = Total weight of shipment goods (Van ready to ship, build complete) Perhaps Gross weight at shipment should be included for vans before leaving the factory?

[@simonhoffman3568]

@@4and2Vanning Strongly agree with you, also. The other thought was that a goal weight for a van to match the towing capacity of a possible tow vehicle might be included in a pre-purchase contract. That may cause purchasers to be more aware of their responsibilities and keep a van build within the buyer's needs. I still think that education/awareness programs for buyers should be easily available, along with a code of conduct coupled with duty of care obligation for van and vehicle sellers.

[@graemegrieve1953]

Thanks for an informative video… Our van (Titanium Hardcore) had an 18 month wait time so I had plenty of time to research and that meant I have made some changes to the van and tow vehicle since our initial order. I’m wondering if your ATM is 2800 and your “revised” GTM is 2613, does that mean your TBM can only be 187kg otherwise if it’s higher then you will be back where you were with a lower GTM. Ideally for an ATM of 2800 you would want a minimum about 240 TBM which would give you an “actual” GTM of 1560. Not sure if my thinking is correct. The other most overlooked weight is “rear axle loading” I will tow at about 3050 loaded so am trading up from my 2020 BiTurbo Ranger to the new V6 Ranger (6400 GCM)

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes you are correct in your thinking…the ceiling for everything is the ATM which in our case has been set by JB at 2800kg. So yes, the revised GTM of 2613 means so long as the ball weight doesn’t exceed 187Kg, we can use the extra capacity of the new GTM for payload. It’s a nonsense really, because that ball weight (187) is the plated ball weight at Tare, and therefore the actual ball weight will always be more than this, in a single axle caravan, quite a bit more! The real answer is not a GTM upgrade (though it helps) but an ATM upgrade…and on that matter, stay tuned, I have another video coming out in November addressing this very issue.

[@ronmayne2771]

@@4and2Vanning you may also want to check the load rating index on your tyres! i think a 122 will give you a load rating of 1500kg.

[@johnsullivan6410]

@@4and2Vanning Good evening, have looked for your video on ATM upgrade but can not find it, have you made it yet? Cheers, John

[@scottprice1943]

Compliance plates are both misleading and not well regulated. Most vans only allow 400 to 600kg carrying capacity, fill both water tanks and this is blown. The ball weight, gvm, atm and gcm is all too difficult to check and comply with, particularly with the vehicle manufactures also playing with numbers on ball weight, tow capacity etc

[@4and2Vanning]

Hey Scott…I agree 100% and in essence this is my key message. The industry has a lot to answer for….

[@johncampbell3628]

Have a 2021 Gator X and my plate tells me that my GTM is 2632kg with a Tare of 2282kg. Interesting that your initial GTM was so,low

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes very interesting…and also interesting that JB sent out a revised compliance plate so quickly. As I said in my video, the industry has a lot of questions to answer…

[@2cousinsIO]

Thanks for the vid Peter. But does this change payload?? ATM (2800kg) - GTM (2613kg) = ball weight of 187kg. Payload is still ATM - Tare, which on most Gator X is @ 450/500kg? Plated ATM is based on the towing vehicle. Not sure this increases available payload? Cheers!

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes the “payload” on the Gator X is very poor, and I don’t think enough attention is drawn to this issue. However, my understanding is that when towing, the tow ball weight (whatever that is in actuality when loaded) is being carried/borne by the car. So the issue is to make sure your car has enough capacity to carry its loaded weight plus the tow ball weight of your van. So in this respect “payload” is a confusing definition, probably created to make a simple understandable single marketing term definition. However, the weight you can carry in your caravan is variable depending on your tow ball weight and car tow ball loading capability. It should be caravan GTM minus Tare plus tow ball weight carried by car. The “industry” has made this issue very confusing and has a lot to answer for! We all understand that in the case of the Gator X the ATM is 2800kg as defined by the cruisemaster suspension. But when is the caravan ever loaded such that the entire 2800kg weight is being borne by the cruisemaster suspension? The answer is… only when the caravan is unhitched and standing on its axle and jockey wheel. When you are hitched and travelling that tow ball weight is now being borne by your car. If your car has a maximum tow ball capacity of 350Kg the “payload” as I have defined it is greater than someone with the same caravan but a different car with a lower tow ball capacity (say 280kg). These inconsistent and contradictory definitions are a mess!!!

[@davidhogg3231]

@@4and2Vanning sorry you are not correct here. The ATM is not determined by the Cruisemaster suspension rating of 2800kgs. This is the Axle Group Rating. The ATM can be higher than this but in the majority of cases it’s the caravan manufacturers who down rate it. If the AGR is 2800 then essentially this is what the GTM can be. Then allow for approximately 10% ball weight and you have potential for an ATM in the region of 3080kgs. A professional chartered engineer will need to assess a whole range of other factors as well to be able to give you an ATM upgrade.

[@4and2Vanning]

Thanks David. If you are correct ( I am sure you are) then it begs the obvious question as to why JB have set the ATM at 2800kg? My understanding from multiple feedback is that this limit of 2800Kg is set by Cruisemaster. This discussion highlights my absolute core point…that this issue of weights and compliance is confusing and full of conflicting and contradictory information. How this industry expects its average consumers to understand all of this is a joke when is dealers and says reps don’t even understand!!!

[@davidhogg3231]

@@4and2Vanning the answer is that JB and every caravan manufacturer does not want you to load their caravans to the limit. After all they have to give you a warranty. So to give you an example of an ATM upgrade using my van: Original specs TARE 2500 TBM at TARE 140 GTM 2860 AGR 3200 ATM 3000 After ATM upgrade GTM 3150 ATM 3500 As you can see the new ATM exceeds the axle group rating because the TBM is part of that.

[@4and2Vanning]

Hey David…I checked the Axle Group Rating on the compliance plate and it is indeed 2800Kg, the same as the ATM. So does this mean (sorry for my slow understanding!) that in essence the ATM could be upgraded as per your suggestion?

[@4onthemove673]

Had similar issue with my van. I thought the payload was as plated 2500 and ATM 3200. Brilliant! Guess what? Tare with all the equipment in it was really 2800. Only had a payload of 400kg. My learning. Agree with yours plus weight it yourself before you put stuff into it. ++ This industry needs to get regulated.

[@4and2Vanning]

That last point is my main point…The industry needs an independent regulator and a common set of definitions and standards which need to be transparent and easily understandable.

[@simonhoffman3568]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWbJk6hjm9Okoas Video 4 of JB vans build. Tare explanation starts at 6.13. Anything added or changed after that stage is apparently not included in Tare.

[@4and2Vanning]

It’s a good video, but this very much highlights my point. There is inconsistency in the information “out there” and in many cases the information is misleading, either deliberately or accidentally. For example I did not know that JB include the weight of one full gas bottle in their “Tare” weight. My dealer certainly didn’t know this! I can find no reference to tare weights and how they are arrived at in any JB website. Why not be up front and transparent about this and provide the de facto information on the website. The other issue, the “elephant in the room” is whether the weights on the compliance plate are accurate!

[@simonhoffman3568]

@@4and2Vanning Hi Ken. Territory Weigh also did our weigh when we arrived home. We bought our Gator x second hand after researching whether our 2018 Isuzu MUX could tow that make/model van. The MUX needed a GVM upgrade to 3200kg. Public weighbridges were showing our overall weights were under (but close) when totally packed and full. Towball weight was 20kg over the 300kg limit on the car. Shifted a few things from van to car and got it down to 280. We have spent the last 10 or so months "experimenting" with weights and found that some things had to go to keep the water tanks full when needed. So, the Tare weight is accurate at weigh time. However, from other posts I have read many people, not just JB owners, have discussed your issues. I'm guessing Compliance plates are not being updated in the next stage of production when upgrades are done? Now don't get me started on Car sales information and towing capability. Not to mention after market add-ons (bullbars etc) that you cannot get a weight on, so that you can factor them in as well..... You are right, transparency is needed in both industries. Especially education on all weight factors, including axle weights.

[@simonhoffman3568]

As an add-on Tare weight = weight of Container (Van, with 1 gas bottle) without goods or packaging. Nett weight = Total weight of goods and packaging. (Not including Tare) Gross weight = Total weight of shipment goods (Van ready to ship, build complete) Perhaps Gross weight at shipment should be included for vans before leaving the factory?

[@4and2Vanning]

Great idea…anything to make this issue of weights more open and transparent is needed.

[@ralph04ification]

It's a mine field.

[@4and2Vanning]

It’s a mine field made worse by poor industry governance allowing manufacturers to take advantage of customers…

[@outbackozvanners6967]

That illegal JB doing another compliance plate

[@4and2Vanning]

How is it illegal?

[@davidhogg3231]

Hi there. Unfortunately you are still overweight. You can not ignore the ATM rating simply because you are towing the van and the weight is supported by the car. You have to tick all the compliance ratings to be legal: GVM GVM in combination GCM TBM GTM ATM From what I see from your video is that the caravan manufacturer has miss lead you by raising the GTM (which is easy to do). What you require is an ATM upgrade. You will require a qualified chartered engineer from the state your van is registered in to assess the vehicle and raise the ATM (and GTM). This may or may not require modifications. He will issue you a mod plate and certificate which will be recorded with the Transport Department. Obviously your ball weight is too heavy so you need to do something about that too.

[@4and2Vanning]

Thanks David I don’t whether this caravan (JB Gator X) can have an ATM upgrade due to the limitations of the cruisemaster air bag suspension. I don’t think JB did mislead me with the GTM upgrade, they didn’t say anything and to be honest I am not sure why they did it? I do think however I may have been misled by the initial tare weight on our build. I am honestly at a loss to understand how to reduce the ball weight other than emptying the water tanks. We carry very little in the caravan other than clothing, bedding, a free cooking utensils and food for 2 frugal adults! My tunnel boot contains spare doonas for the direct weather conditions, and a few other relatively light bits of other stuff. I have ditched the Weber BBQ to save weight, so my two outside tool boxes contain canvas sheets and water pipes…and that’s it!!!!

[@davidhogg3231]

@@4and2Vanning Hi again. Unfortunately some times it comes down to poor design. Everything on the front adds to the problem - the two tool boxes, stone guard and gas bottles. You may need to get some weight on the bumper to counteract the front. I’m afraid you can’t exceed 350kgs on the ball so maybe an engineering solution is required.

[@4and2Vanning]

Hi again David. I agree with you. I believe the problems we are experiencing are indeed down to a poor design of the van. Everything that is “weighty” is forward of the single axle, the battery system, the water tanks, the tool boxes and tunnel boot and stone guard. Even the majority of the internal cupboards are forward of the axle. I have one small external storage space rear of the axle, and I have all my heavy tools etc in that space. I have a couple of rear external jerry can holders and a wood storage box, and I put a 5 Ltr fuel jerry can in one, and the water hoses in the other, and use the wood storage box for grey hose pipes etc. I don’t really know what else I can do to shift the weight balance, which is why I come back to agreeing with your view in poor design!

[@samroyds6313]

But are you not still over your ATM of 2800kg sitting at 2945kg? You need the GTM and the ATM to be increased to be within limits on your setup?

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes agree

[@samroyds6313]

I’m in New Zealand with a discovery 4 and a jayco 22.68.1 outback. 2400kg Tare “apparently” and ATM of 3000kg. I’ll need every kg of that 600kg payload with full water tanks. I should have weighed the van when I first got it to confirm the 2400kg tare as I’ve heard they weigh it with quite a few missing items like gas bottles, mattress and a few others. So effectively I may not actually have 600kg of payload. I’m off to weigh it all soon fully loaded with the 5 of us and van. My main concern on top of ATM is the discovery’s rear axle limit of 1855kg. As 300kg tow hitch weight exerts we’ll over 400kg on rear axle as the hitch isn’t above the rear wheels. I’m enjoying your videos, we’re about to embark on a 12 month lap around NZ soon and hope to do the big lap around Australia also. Cheers

[@pjmbarlick]

@@samroyds6313 Hey Sam, on my Discovery 5 the rear axle multiplier is approx 1.4, so your 300Kg all weight would create a load of 44Kg! So that’s 440Kg of your 1855Kg payload, before you load ups Yothu g in the car! Since I made that video I have come to understand that Caravan manufacturers very rarely actually weigh the “tare” of the van they produce, they basically make a guesstimate based on a few samples from a production line, and as you have discovered they are very “coy” about disclosing what is included in their definition of “tare”. I am very dubious about Jayco weights, as the salesperson I spoke to says they have a payload of 600Kg for every van they make. When I asked how they measure this, given the tare weight of each van could be different,they had no idea and avoided the question. I would strongly urge anyone buying a new van these days to head to a Weighbridge and weigh the empty van, then at least you know the truth of your starting point. Hopefully we will see you in your travels next year, we will be resuming our travels in April…with a new caravan!

[@samroyds6313]

@@pjmbarlick new van awesome. Twin axle I presume. Loving the discovery as a two vehicle so good with the air suspension. On our jayco they provided us with a weigh station receipt or the tare and simply added 600kg to that for ATM. (ours is 3004kg atm I think) but yes I should’ve verified that on pickup as a starting point. Also since then it’s had 2nd grey water tank, tv retractable aerial, 2000watt inverter,dc to dc charger and 4kw diesel heater installed😳😬. It’s gonna be close. Also in Nz if you weigh over 6ton combined you need to be on a class 2 license. More money.

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes so if Jayco simply add 600 to the tare to get the ATM you have to ask on what basis that is decided? Basically it’s a marketing ploy. So is the ATM a meaningful load rating or if it just a figure that suits a marketing position? Yes our van is twin axle, I won’t make that mistake again!!!

[@johnallen3555]

so, the manufacturers sold you a brumby - your assumption on the tare was correct - manufacturers sold you a brumby

[@4and2Vanning]

Yep the manufacturer sold us an overweight van… no question about that

[@johnallen3555]

@@4and2Vanning - if the van is post 2011, the situation would fall under Australian consumer law which unambiguously dumps all responsibility for rectificaiton / replacement on the supplier / manufacturer - there is no reason why this should cost you a penny if it falls under this consumer law

[@stevezodiac575]

Haha, You say "the payload as I have defined it .." sorry but YOU DON'T define it! p d is correct I think. Pay load is ATM minus Tare. Correctly load balanced (in your van) your tow ball load should be 10% (nominal) of your ACTUAL ATM - you are way over that at 352kg. Something wrong there I think! Suggest check your load distribution and do your sums again and set out your calculations in the conventional way. I can't help but wonder - are you just having a joke here?

[@4and2Vanning]

No I am not having a joke! But I do think this whole issue of weights and definitions is a joke… For example, you say tow ball load should be 10% of actual ATM…but who says that is the case? I know that there is a “belief” that should be the case here in Australia, but in other countries the “belief” is 15%. Territory Weigh, who weighed my rig suggested between 11% and 13% should be appropriate. The thing that really confuses me about ATM is this…ATM is “aggregate” trailer mass. So what is included in this aggregate? Answer GTM plus ball weight. So what is GTM?. Answer - maximum weight of your caravan fully loaded when hitched. So when hitched, the ball weight is borne, not by the caravan, but by the car. So when towing, so long as the Weight you are towing is within the GTM, and so long as the ball weight is within the capability of your tow vehicle (as plated) then you should be fine…and legal. Does this mean therefore that the only time the ATM can be correctly measured is when the vehicle is unhitched? And if so, what is the point of having the ATM as a measure whilst towing?? So my point is…all of this information is contradictory and confusing and the “industry” if it wants to help its consumers needs to be much clearer about its definitions and the legal requirements. PS. I agree, in my case, the ball weight is too heavy, but I have a single axle JB Gator X configured with twin single beds rather than a double. I have no extra load on the front of the van. It is no different from when I collected it last October, and we travel light with our cupboards only carrying clothing and bedding. The entire Enerdrive system is housed under one bed, with bedding under the other. My strong suspicion is that the tare weight and ball weight as plated on this caravan are incorrect, and JB have simply used a standard measurement from other Gator’s without actually properly weighing my van configuration at build. So it pisses me of greatly that the only way to reduce my van weight is to empty the water tanks!

[@davidjones8644]

@@4and2Vanning the ATM is the mass of the trailer, so, put it on a weighbridge without the car attached so that all the wheels are on the weighbridge - in your case the two road wheels and the jockey wheel. That is the ATM. So you cannot exceed 2800 kg. The GTM is the weight on the two road wheels, so the load carried by the wheels, suspension and axles. Your GTM is 2613 kg. Are your tyres, rims, axles and suspension all rated for this load? I, too, have a Discovery 5, and I find the rear axle limit on the car is my problem.

[@pjmbarlick]

@@davidjones8644 Hi David. I had the rig weighed a few weeks ago, so I know that the ATM is 2940Kg and the GTM is 2593Kg (within the load rating). I believe the axle group rating as per compliance plate is also 2800Kg. My very new and vague understanding is that if the AGR is 2800 then the ATM (which after all is specified by JB) could be as high as 3080Kg, and I don’t understand why this isn’t the case. I still have a problem in that with the water tanks full, my ball weight is too high (350Kg) but it is still within the capabilities of the Discovery, although, like you, with this ball weight added to the Discovery I am approaching the Disco rear axle load limit!

[@simonhoffman3568]

Aggregate Trailer Mass is directly related to Axle Group Load Capacity (Maximum axle load) on the compliance plate. ATM can be lower, but not higher than Axle GLC.