Thom Rainer Dissects the Death of Denominations and the Stunning Decline in Evangelism

Thom Rainer Dissects the Death of Denominations, the Stunning Decline in Evangelism, and the Digital Revolution for Small Churches
Bestselling author, Thom Rainer, returns to the podcast to discuss the three biggest shifts he's seeing in the church right now: the death of denominations, the stunning decline in peoples' commitment to evangelism and the promising hope for small churches through digital evangelism.
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[@marylamb6063]

The days of the "suited pastor" monopolizing Christian fellowship are coming to a close. Christians "assemble" by sitting in a large auditorium, all facing "the pastor and pulpit," and being trained like little children who can't read the Bible for themselves. But the Body of Christ consists of all members needing each other, encouraging one another, praying for one another, and using every spiritual gift for mutual edification. As long as our fellowship consists of superficial greetings and a lack of participation of every member but one, the institutional church will decline even more.

[@garysweeten5196]

One of the best things our church did was to have monthly James 5 Healing Services that attracted numerous people, over 90% of whom were non members and most non Christians. We later added a Lay Care and Counseling Ministry that attracted mostly nonmembers to come for support, counsel, encouragement, and confidentiality. We showed we were open to people in trouble and who were often rejected. We also had a Recovery Ministry or drug for sex addicts that attracted many shame filled people.

[@bealivingmiracle]

Gary, I would love to check our your church website. You are fulfilling Matt 5:16 and allowing Messiah Jesus to fulfill his mission as stated in Lk 4:18,19 and Isa 61:1,2. “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.” (Matt 5:16) “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.” (Lk 4:18,19) “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD” (Isa 61:1,2)

[@dannhagstrom586]

I’d love to hear what your church did to reach the community; this sounds great. Is there a link you can share?

[@valeriehancock1724]

It’s so tough to find a good church that teaches the truth of scripture. There are many churches, but many pastors have a poor understanding of the bible; their focus is on entertaining people, and leaving their congregations starving to be fed the bible. Many congregants live the same lives as people outside the church, and they pick and choose, along with many of their leaders, what they want to believe from scripture. It’s tough. Thankfully we found a solid church about 3 years ago. It was the Holy Spirit that lead us to a scripture y sound church.

[@bealivingmiracle]

Valerie, your observations are accurate. Perhaps, there are too many pastors who were not called and gifted, but have the seminary degree. Or they are not in the few that have gone through the narrow gate to life. What are your thoughts? “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matt 7:13-14)

[@TheVafa95]

Anyone who is hungry has responsibility to get food and eat it. And not to expect another person to feed him, while playing music and singing for him. People are literate, so it is their responsibility to read the Bible and learn what they should do.

[@PhillipSwindall]

In 1996, while a student at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, I BEGGED for a media ministry track, and TRIED to explain the birth of digital would allow smaller churches to afford “radio” (podcasts), “newsprint” (blogs), and “television” (streaming). Imagine what could’ve happened on 2020 if half of our smaller churches had already been digital!

[@M.....................]

Great conversation! Geez- always love Thom Rainer!

[@bealivingmiracle]

Very insightful interview. This is a very sobering quote from Thom, “If I were a non-Christian, and I had one source to find out about the Christian faith, and it was social media, I would declare never in my life would I become a Christian, because those people are mean. Those people are venomous in many cases. And all they want to argue about is the next thing.” God is kind, and I am thankful for that. I try to extend His kindness toward others as I yield to the Spirit. Christians should be kind to each other and to those outside the faith. Many Christians in American churches (specifically) are preventing the Holy Spirit from being LORD in their own lives individually. “Love suffers long and is kind [chresteuomai]” (1Cor 13:4) “Or do you despise the riches of His goodness [chrestotes], forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness [chrestos] of God leads you to repentance?” (Rom 2:4) “For He is kind [chrestos] to the unthankful and evil.” (Lk 6:35) “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness [chrestotes], goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” (Gal 5:22-23) “that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness [chrestotes] toward us in Christ Jesus.” (Eph 2:7) “Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness [chrestotes], humility, meekness, longsuffering” (Col 3:12) “But when the kindness [chrestotes] and the love [philanthropia] of God our Savior toward man appeared” (Tit 3:4) “And yet I show you a more excellent way…A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” (1Cor 12:31; Jn 13:34)

[@weirdwilliam8500]

Social media, yes. And politics. And the news. And the Christian I sometimes see standing by the park near my house who yells at everyone about how depraved and wicked we all are. And statistics, like how virtually all evangelicals support Trump, the lying, cheating, cruel, openly racist, serial adulterer. Like, maybe you have fond childhood memories of praying over food at thanksgiving or something, but Christians today are behind almost everything bad that’s happening.

[@brentmiller3951]

Do you mean the god who says it is ok to beat your slaves as long as they don't die for 3 days .What is your excuse for Jesus telling slaves to obey their masters even the mean masters

[@weirdwilliam8500]

Nailed it at 35:00. If I see a random church, I generally assume everyone there would hate me, because that’s what I hear all the Christians saying.

[@willrobinson1229]

What's sad is that I felt that way about the church I finally left. I went to join a church which doesn't preach hate even while being theologically orthodox.

[@weirdwilliam8500]

@@willrobinson1229 And when you’re just joining a church because more people there think like you do, how is it not all subjective? The “objective” morals and “true” interpretations always seem to vary based on what the individual Christian finds most subjectively comfortable. And lately, all the prominent outspoken Christians seem to hate me and my values.

[@ladyfritz8r]

I am happy you are on KZbin

[@jtothee713]

A hard truth to hear at 31:00 and beyond. We are post-Christian and local churches are in a mission field - the 'local' church has faded substantially. I have seen this with my own eyes over the last 20 years. Churches in the growing suburbs are member only country clubs that don't reflect the neighborhoods they are in.

[@T-41]

Thoughtful and informative, I learned much. Thank you. The discussion was quite extensive concerning process issues involved with declines in church membership and attendance and how to reverse this. Does the churches’ message also play a role in falling membership? It feels like over recent decades that the evangelical church in particular has been very strident in its opposition to the increases in general public acceptance of LBGT concerns ,individual reproductive rights, racial causes such as Black Lives Matter, immigration , climate science, etc. which younger Americans in particular have supported . Christians exercised power through Republican Party politics to resist these changes, often effectively enforcing their religious beliefs on others, but has this come at a cost of making the Church unappealing to others who hold different views ? Will evolving and improving the process of reaching non members reverse decline if the message issues remain as they seem to be or get more severe? How will Christians convince non believers to accept and embrace Christ when the church so strongly opposes what seems to them as fairness and compassion?

[@felixguerrero6062]

If you thesis was correct then mainline protestants which support all those causes would be booming. But they are almost completely dead. While biblical and conservatives are still thriving. It's better to follow God's word not political trends.

[@janiceking6955]

I feel awkward commenting since I am not a leader in my church but just very interested in where the church is going and feel the need to say that I usually leave my church service hungry, hungry for preaching about God. Less about me and how to be a good Christian and how to fit into what society is expecting out of us...and more of what a great God we serve and glorifying Him. God has brought us through some pretty harrowing times in history, a lot worse than what we're going through now. I need more focus on Him and less on us and it is so hard to find! Maybe that's why the kids are leaving? We're not focusing on the two greatest issues, glorifying our Creator and telling others how great He is.

[@DanValentineFilms]

Excellent conversation! For me as a Gen Z leader in the dense and diverse New York City / New Jersey area, this is not a foreign mission field, it's how it's been in the last 7 years of ministry. Older leaders in our area keep focusing on pleasing the boomers and doing things the old way while ignoring ages 18-30. These young adults are our future pastors, missionaries, church planters, etc. but generally local churches have a "go to hell" attitude toward us as Gen Z. And ages 18-30 know they aren't cared for or respected, so most of them want nothing to do with the local churches.

[@bealivingmiracle]

Dan, as a Gen Z leader, how are you reaching the 18-30 year old populations that have been ignored/disrespected/disenfranchised/marginalized by the local churches? Is their revulsion for the church the result of God allowing the principle of reaping and sowing, as the veil of spiritual blindness is becoming more prevalent or is the Holy Spirit waiting for leaders such as yourself to begin to influence the "old guard" pastors to become more compassionate toward a younger generation? Clearly, in times of increased darkness and sin, grace abounds more. “Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more” (Rom 5:20)

[@brentmiller3951]

They know who will listen the kids are being educated on the hatred of Christianity and being red the whole bible the parts where god says it is ok to beat your slaves and where Jesus tells slaves to obey there masters .the internet will be the churches death .the genie is out of the bible ignorance is how you kept people

[@merriegiles5922]

I love data. Miss it since I retired...

[@regine3147]

Maybe God will raise up His own church because the world raised up is own. We left the church a number of years ago and have not found one to go back to. KZbin has been a great help in keeping fed, but reading the bible for myself has been the greatest help. So surprised at how many people don't know their bibles. Many pastors included. BTW pastoring is a gift not an office, so we have our churches set up totally incorrectly. Churches today are mainly businesses.

[@anniemayflower9187]

Maybe try not killing others who think or look differnt!

[@ChristinaHills]

Lots of church is happening in other ways. For example there are lots of groups on Clubhouse doing “church”. Meaning people are getting together for fellowship online not in a formal setting, but a group of people following Jesus communing together. Church leaders are not aware of this

[@ChristinaHills]

However I do agree that in person is preferred as that is where you grow

[@mariabarnes9197]

Isn't clubhouse an invitation only platform?

[@WebsiteCreationWorkshop]

@@mariabarnes9197 it used to be, but now it's open to everyone

[@mariabarnes9197]

@@WebsiteCreationWorkshop oh ok. Thx

[@MrStripedsocks]

Just throwing this out there, but…what if the professional pastor, professional leaders, and the business of church needs to die in order to reset. Cultural shifts about communication may be one thing, but basic human needs don’t change, at least not rapidly. What if this is just a sign that our society does not need the business of church institutions any longer. Those institutions just figured out how to survive financially long past any relevance.

[@AyodejiEbadan]

Hmm... Great commission has become great omission. Wow!

[@brentmiller3951]

The best thing that is happening is one year later and you are losing people faster

[@tallseahorses]

Respectfully - diagnosis (the three Ds) solid. the prescription = weak, recycling tropes.

[@weirdwilliam8500]

He literally thinks there are evil spirits causing the church to decline. How is he supposed to find a solution that is tethered to reality in any way?

[@arttyree4504]

Another factor in why people don't try coming to "churches."--the people in them live the same carnal way as the people outside of them--so why bother?

[@Martihorn]

Digital church is especially important for aging Baby Boomers who cannot attend in person.

[@jonnewman21]

Acts 2 New International Version The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost 2 When the day of Pentecost(A) came, they were all together(B) in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.(C) 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit(D) and began to speak in other tongues[a](E) as the Spirit enabled them. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing(F) Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed,(G) they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?(H) 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia,(I) Pontus(J) and Asia,[b](K) 10 Phrygia(L) and Pamphylia,(M) Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene;(N) visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” 13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”(O) Peter Addresses the Crowd 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!(P) 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.(Q) Your sons and daughters will prophesy,(R) your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.(S) 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below,(T) blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood(U) before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord(V) will be saved.’[c](W) 22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth(X) was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs,(Y) which God did among you through him,(Z) as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge;(AA) and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.(AB) 24 But God raised him from the dead,(AC) freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.(AD) 25 David said about him: “‘I saw the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest in hope, 27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.(AE) 28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e](AF) 29 “Fellow Israelites,(AG) I can tell you confidently that the patriarch(AH) David died and was buried,(AI) and his tomb is here(AJ) to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.(AK) 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.(AL) 32 God has raised this Jesus to life,(AM) and we are all witnesses(AN) of it. 33 Exalted(AO) to the right hand of God,(AP) he has received from the Father(AQ) the promised Holy Spirit(AR) and has poured out(AS) what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’[f](AT) 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord(AU) and Messiah.”(AV) 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”(AW) 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized,(AX) every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.(AY) And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.(AZ) 39 The promise is for you and your children(BA) and for all who are far off(BB)-for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”(BC) 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number(BD) that day. The Fellowship of the Believers 42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching(BE) and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread(BF) and to prayer.(BG) 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.(BH) 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.(BI) 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.(BJ) 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts.(BK) They broke bread(BL) in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.(BM) And the Lord added to their number(BN) daily those who were being saved.

[@jholman714]

The church needs to start preaching the TRUE GOSPEL instead of all the man-centered psychology and self help many churches have been trying to pass off as the Gospel!! Others are solely focused on political issues and culture “wars” against the very people Jesus died for and desperately wants to save from judgment(II Corinthians 5:18). If not either of those, it’s a confusing mix of old and new covenant being taught instead of the abundance of grace and the focus on God’s gift of Righteousness by faith that Paul taught! The free and abundant Grace of God is what produces real inside out life change(fruit of the Spirit), instead of the works of the flesh Paul listed in Galatians that are the inevitable result of law preaching focused on self effort. The more we keep our eyes on Jesus and His great love for us, demonstrated by His finished work at the cross, the more we’ll be transformed from glory to glory just by beholding Him!!(II Corinthians 3:18). The true Gospel focuses on the Righteousness of God(given to us as a gift), not on the sinfulness of man!! If you constantly have to tell people to share the Gospel, you’re not preaching the real thing!! God’s Gospel is so amazing and glorious, when you hear it, you won’t be able to stop sharing it!! This is what Paul preached everywhere he went! The Holy Spirit made sure it was recorded for us word for word in Acts 13! Here is the climax! 👇🏻 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.” ‭‭Acts‬ ‭13‬:‭38‬-‭39‬ ‭NKJV‬‬ And this is the reaction we’ll see when we start preaching it again!!👇🏻👇🏻 “So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.” ‭‭Acts‬ ‭13‬:‭42‬-‭44‬ ‭NKJV‬‬ THIS is what will cause the great end time revival and harvest before the rapture and Jesus’ return!!!