Donatism: Ancient Cancel Culture

Are some sins unforgivable? In the late stages of the pagan Roman Empire, Christians were often persecuted for failing to support the state religion. However, after being arrested, most Christians at any time could escape punishment by performing a brief pagan ritual, offering incense to the genius of the emperors. Many took this option and were released. Others refused and were thrown to the lions.
After the persecutions ended, the Christians whose family members and leaders had been martyred, refused to forgive those who had conveniently renounced their faith. In North Africa, the issue led to a substantial division in the church, where the purist party, the Donatists, refused to recognize sacraments performed by priests and bishops who had failed the faith. John Hamer of Toronto Centre Place will look at this history of this ancient version of “cancel culture,” including its institutional and theological implications for Christians today.
Join the livestream to participate in the discussion and to ask questions to our lecturer during the Q&A.
Other topics covered in this lecture include:
Christian schism
Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire
Persecutions of Christians under Diocletian.
Africa Proconsularis
Church of Carthage
Donatus Magnus
Augustine of Hippo
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[@annayosh]

Regarding the 'washing away of sins by baptism at the end of your life', there is one Arian king of the Visigoths, who was said to have been apparently mortally ill, got the last sacraments - including his 'once in a lifetime' confession, then when he surprisingly recovered realized that he now had to live the rest of his life without sin, so he stepped down from his kingship and joined a monastery. I think modern historians believe that this all is just a cover-up when what actually happened is that he was deposed in a palace coup, but it is definitely how the story was written.

[@alanpennie]

It was certainly a Byzantine practice to compel political opponents to become priests or monks or nuns as a alternative to killing or mutilating them, presumably on the ground that once you'd taken holy orders you couldn't kill anyone, which meant you couldn't be a secular magistrate.

[@johnedwardtaylor]

That is part of the resolution of Shakespeare's As You Like It. The bad guy converts and goes off to a monastery, leaving the throne to his brother. It happens in real life, I guess, when Christians take being born again as more than just standing up and waving their arms.

[@Kid_Ikaris]

Regardless of its veracity that's a great legend. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a mix of both political cover-up and spiritual awakening. Underneath the outer surface, even most of the saints doubted their faith at times.

[@kaloarepo288]

The Holy Roman emperor Charles V -who was the first ruler in history to rule an empire "on which the sun never sets" after a life of great tribulation during which he took on a slew of enemies from rebellious Lutheran princes, to the French, and to the Ottoman Turks finally decided to throw in the towel and became a monk in a remote Spanish monastery. Afterwards his empire was divided up by his two sons -one part was the Spanish empire and the new world under Phillip II and the other was the more Germanic world of the Austrian empire, Germany and parts of Italy.

[@annayosh]

I have to correct myself here - the king in question was Wamba, who lost the kingship in 680 and thus was Catholic, not Arian, as he lived over a century after the conversion of the Visigoth Kingdom.

[@hygujiuy]

Related to your Woody Allen example. I was a big Fan Of Nietzsche as a college sophomore and it was an entry point to the world of Philosophy and Psychology Literature. But now decades later I don't think we are exactly what you would call kindred spirits if you catch my drift.

[@garymensurati1631]

Always appreciate and enjoy your lectures John. You're presentations are top notch. I have much to ponder after each video.Thank you !

[@centre-place]

Glad you like them! Thank you for your amazing feedback

[@mieliav]

as a jew, I've had to go past the antisemitism of so many great artists... whose work has enriched me.

[@portville1979]

I love the common sense he brings to these lectures.

[@StevenSmolak]

Thank You Thank You so much. It is a new, life even, as a Seeker, to understand more fully such origins... I hardly see it as a donation when you've earned every penny and then some if I were presently able, but, on my way to bless Centreplace back 🙏🏻🌎❤️

[@Hector-dd5hb]

Thanks for the very interesting presentation! There is a little typographic error in the slide about Saint Denis. This is Montmartre and not Montmatre.

[@lakrids-pibe]

Very interesting opening about Woody Allen. I also grew up with Woody's movies and books, and I thought he was great. I think I'm about the same age as mr Hamer. I still think most of his movies holds up, but I watch them through a filter of what I've learned about him as a person. Theres a very interesting discusion to be made about the counterculture of the sixties and seventies, and how they rightly rebelled against the overly restrictive moralism of older generations, but then went too far in the other direction of self indulgent permissiveness.

[@artandminisbyvilma8116]

Yes, I was surprised that John made this reference that I identify with so much. Woody was definitely one of my idols while I was in college and afterward for a long time. After his personal life exploded on the news I had to pause and adjust my level of admiration for this artist and kind of separate that from how I view him as a person. But then, frankly, that has happened to me with many other great artists that were, as John put it, part of my identity in way, such as Michael J., B. Cosby, and even Picasso, really. The way that I've handled this hard and disappointing adjustment is by accepting that a great artist is not necessarily a great person. Many times their personal behavior is as awful and appalling as their creations are great (A very Jungian subject, but that is another discussion). Thank you, John Hammer, for another great lecture!

[@annayosh]

As I understand a major theological argument against the Donatists is that they considered the sin of traditores to be unforgivable, and that accepting the existence of unforgivable sins would mean restricting the almightiness of God.

[@alanpennie]

I'd imagine a Donatist counter - argument would be that setting aside whether such a sin was forgivable or not it would be a scandal to allow a traditor to retain holy orders, a such a person should not be allowed to administer any sacrament.

[@dantallman5345]

Peter denied Jesus twice and went on to have a leadership role in the church with no blowback on record. (Kind of strange that Paul did not rub his face in it during their squabbles.)

[@alanpennie]

@@dantallman5345 Fair point.

[@Kid_Ikaris]

​​@@dantallman5345 I wonder if it was because Peter could always just retort well you weren't even there when it happened.

[@sebolddaniel]

I am writing a hagiography about my hero, Mister Hamer.

[@evanmalt1545]

At last! Some depth in KZbin! Thank you for your work.

[@solidhg2005]

The same people are at it again, some things never change.

[@williamcary8029]

So that why I am so into philosophy since a small child Annie Hall. Big Woody Allan Fan as a child. Made you think.

[@encompass6857]

Very thoughtful and well-reasoned!

[@cariboubearmalachy1174]

In response to the movie question, Agora was a movie that showed the transition between Pagan and Christian rule in 4th Century Alexandria. At the beginning,all the rulers are Pagans, but halfway through, it jumps 20 years into the rule of Theodosius and all the officials have been forced to convert to Christianity.

[@longcastle4863]

They desire to stand out and call everyone else a sinner has been there to be found in Christianity all the time at least since Christ died

[@VSP4591]

Mulțumim!

[@chipvogel]

The Problem of Evil lecture reminds me of cancel culture. Why is there evil? Cancel culture belief is because evil is tolerated. CC believes it will end evil with a zero-tolerance policy.

[@billkotas9049]

This dude totally rocks !

[@andrewsuryali8540]

Ah, damn. No mention of the most interesting spin-off of Donatism? Circumcellions? 😢

[@fabiogfranco]

Love your lectures! Just a reminder that Istanbul is not the capital of modern Turkey. Wikipedia: “Ankara became the new Turkish capital upon the establishment of the Republic on 29 October 1923, succeeding in this role as the former Turkish capital Istanbul following the fall of the Ottoman Empire.”

[@GeraldSmallbear]

It's reassuring to know that every country has its Canberra.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

Also, Pliny the Younger is the nephew, not son, of Pliny the Elder.

[@lakrids-pibe]

And Rio de Janeiro is not the capital of Brazil since 1960.

[@HamerToronto]

Yes, I know that very well. Thank you for the correction of my slip of the thought process.

[@markcharron]

This same thing happened in Catholicism recently after the fallout of the 2nd Vatican Council in the 1960s... people who refused to accept the council accused the bishops of the whole Church as being apostates due to their belief that it was a heretical council... they believed that a cascade effect had taken off and none of their ordinations, baptisms, or absolutions were valid... that the whole Church was in universal apostasy and that they were the remnant... They still exist in a lot of areas of "Catholic Traditionalism" and Sedevacantism. Really they are just modern day Donatists, and recent popes have condemned them, especially Francis, by tightening the restrictions on the saying of the Tridentine Mass.

[@CasperLCat]

As a point of fact, Woody was extensively investigated and NOT charged with any crimes, regarding Dylan Farrow. IMO, it was highly unethical and profoundly unloving of him toward Mia Farrow, his longtime partner, to take up with Soon Yi Previn, the 21 yr old adopted daughter of Mia (at the time), but that was not a crime, and was legally consensual.

[@Jmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjm1]

Donutism sounds like a religion for police.

[@Les537]

I think free mason for them boys.

[@adriennepatterson6113]

Lol or Homer Simpson

[@Jmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjm1]

@@adriennepatterson6113 He actually worshipped a waffle that was stuck to the ceiling.

[@dbarker7794]

Chief Wiggum would be a deacon in that church.

[@adriennepatterson6113]

@@dbarker7794 hahaha nice

[@HearTruth]

Answer to your description box ... 1 sin is unforgivable. Mtt 12: 31-32 . and the casting incense not only is it rebuking Christ but it also is the act of voting . Mtt 10:33-35 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. an oath putting man and the State above God. Jm 5:12 Eph 6:12 Col 3:6

[@cariboubearmalachy1174]

Pliny must have watched Austin Powers

[@aclem8246]

I have to believe that these stories were meant for people of the time. Why else would the meaning be hidden in characters and things that are so unclear as to be confusing at best and largely impossible to decipher with any kind of certainty. I would think they addressed situations at the time and where easily understood by the people of that time only. Although Christ used stories to illustrate and help with understanding he never did it in such a way that you could misunderstand what he was talking about.

[@hendersonbradshaw3098]

I like Donats with powered sugar.

[@canyoubeserious]

Great content, but so mercilessly tediously delivered

[@jounik8980]

Brotherhood of snake was cancelled

[@josephkania642]

If Donatism is wrong, then the entire concept of salvation or grace or whatever the Church magic does is also wrong. Christ is a type of magical infection that passes from person to person. You are not properly infected if there is a break in the chain, via God, Jesus, his disciples, then via popes, bishops, priests, etc. But if you are still Christian despite there being an interruption of the "Christ Current" then human spiritual authority is not a thing and salvation is by faith alone. The path to God is not like the path of electricity through a string of Christmas tree lights. It isn't in a series. If one light goes out the others are stlll okay. The path would be parallel, directly from Yahweh to each individual human. It makes sense to me that this would be a big deal. Though fictional, a magical system must be coherent for people to suspend their disbelief.