challenge rating makes no sense

[@Myaora]

It's not called challenge rating because it's a rating to determine how challenging a monster is. It's called challenge rating because it's a real challenge to give these monsters a proper rating.

[@alizard7617]

Certified beholder moment

[@alexinfinite7142]

@@alizard7617 nailed it bud!

[@DiploRaptor]

Or they are just dumb. Its a 15ft cone. Also at level 3 if 22 damages insta kills you your hp has to be 11 or lower.

[@BenisDD]

it's called challange rating, because the person grading the monsters has to be mentally challanged to screw up this bad

[@heavenseeker2320]

@@DiploRaptor or it a party of 6 wizard with less than 20 Hp

[@carpedm9846]

"You are level 5 right?" "Yeah." "Ok so this should be easy, its just a cr2 creature. The Intellect devourer goes first, Barbarian whats your INT?"

[@GypsySlyp]

lost my first character to an intellect devourer lol

[@curtisbrown547]

it one shots a level 20 barbarian with the same effectiveness as a level 5.

[@GypsySlyp]

@@curtisbrown547 yeah shadows are just as bad except they affect str instead of int and kill you instead of incapacitate CR 1/2 lol

[@articusramos808]

Book smart barbarian: uhhhh 21...you got to read this book on how using am axe can be beneficial to healthy lifestyle and wood craftsmanship.

[@medicgaming2994]

my dm screaming in fear as Im immune to all psychic damage due to the ring of mind shielding

[@Dovahninja]

This reminds me of when I DM'd for my friends a few years back. They were all between level 6-8 So I figured a T-rex would be challenging and fun at the same time. Eight hours Later the Cleric is dead, The paladin is stuck in it's mouth screaming and the rogue is hiding up in a tree. Definitely one of my favorite D&D memories.

[@dramaexterminatus]

I have a hard time believing any semi-competent party would wipe to a t-rex. Admittedly, at level 6, maybe if they play like garbage. At level 8 I just don't see it happening. (then again, it's D&D so the t-rex could always crit), but seeing as how much action economy should fck it Unless they were all out of everything. Or I suppose it was only a party of 2 or something.

[@abeldelatorre1382]

@@dramaexterminatus also the context of the fight is important, we all now that pretty much everyone can go down to a goblin in the right/wrong situation

[@dramaexterminatus]

@@abeldelatorre1382 partially yes. If they have no spells slots they could lose admittedly. But seeing the largely used 1 fight 1 rest module it seems unlikely. But bad rolls can fuck over anyone, such as my dungeon boss duergar with +8 to hit who did not land A SINGLE attack against a level 3 party in 10 turns. He was a beast and yet utterly useless

[@shuvelstone1331]

THAT'S DEMONIC MAN, I LOVE IT!

[@McSquidification]

My rogue had a similar experience except swap roles for the paladin and rogue (I was screaming in its mouth)

[@pineaplewizard]

I live for the sorcerer’s braindead stare into the abyss with a smile on his face

[@joshrodriguez2711]

Plays it just like I would

[@r_ez4608]

As someone who plays a sorc, I can confirm that we all play with this look on our faces... while we cause mass destruction by mistake.

[@takingflight7656]

Same! Made me lol a few times

[@abucket14]

i live with the sorcerer's braindead stare into the abyss with a smile on my face.

[@eclatshwartzbaumcybertune2063]

Its enthralling lol

[@100timesinarow8]

Party: massacres an adult dragon without breaking a sweat Also party: nearly dies to a bunch of cr1 birds that got a surprise round.

[@portlandbluewizard2520]

Ahh level 1.... when you stand a legitimate chance of being TPK'd by domestic cats.

[@matsutermini8077]

Yup, level 7 party easily killed 2 venomous Trolls, not a sweat, nearly got killed by 6 goblins and a falling pit

[@sharpfang]

My party slayed a dragon in passing, didn't even stop. Then a commoner cook woman armed with a frying pan nearly managed to bludgeon them into submission.

[@portlandbluewizard2520]

@@sharpfang ...doesn't sound like a commoner to me. Commoners have 4hp, and like... what, an attackmod of +0? With no proficiencties?

[@sharpfang]

@@portlandbluewizard2520 It was WFRP so a little different rules. Primarily, max damage on crit hit is practically uncapped (after first two rolls where rules are more complex, you just keep rolling D6 and as long as you're getting '6' you keep adding 6 to the damage). She downed the tank of the team that way, one other fighting character bungled a negative crit so badly he almost suicided himself, the wizard was out of spell points (they were meant to stop to rest there, not start a burt!), and two other players were busy elsewhere.

[@patrickmorrey8722]

I'll never forget the time my 6 person level 2 party killed a bandit chief in one turn and then proceeded to get absolutely destroyed by his cr 1/4 friend to the point that 3 players were down one was hanging off a cliff and the other two were fleeing in terror. They just rolled really badly and he rolled pretty good. I had to let him run away. But he became a recurring character later so all was fine.

[@noahjones9833]

That npc was fated by the gods to win

[@ShiningDarknes]

The simplicity of 5e is often its undoing. Challenge rating is one such place where it falls flat on its face because the challenge rating just do not mean shit. In general stay away from area attacks that have the potential to one-shot party members that fail their save and you should be fine. It is also best to not be upset when your party is easily clearing encounters that you set up to be "appropriate" for the party level. That is a good thing. Your goal should not be to kill them, but for them to have an enjoyable experience. After the session ask the players what they thought of the encounters if you felt they got through them too easily, if the players say they had fun, great you don't need to change anything, if they say it was too easy ask what they think would have made it more challenging and incorporate some of those ideas into future encounters (often the solution is just toss 2.5 to 1 odds at the party or give the monster an additional hit die or up the attack slightly).

[@fovarberma752]

I'd say to replace the 1d20 by 2d10, but then the maths don't work as well as modifiers become overpowered. So instead I'll say "Try another game". Star Wars: Edge of the Empire would be a nice one to look at. It predates a lot of the shitty movies.

[@Orfurgameing]

what was the CR 1/4 friend?

[@patrickmorrey8722]

@@Orfurgameing a normal bandit.

[@blues1160]

As a newer DM playing with my friends this isn't a skit, this is every session.

[@pentha8042]

As a decently experienced DM, this is still me most sessions.

[@neila128]

As a player who has yet to become a DM, this is our DM with us almost every session.

[@justanuff]

As a person who has never played but wishes to play, I have no comment apart from this one.

[@codyfox8119]

I'm currently running descent into avernus and ever single session my players are like "that fight needed to be toned down." They killed a cr 13 creature in one turn at level 5

[@LexSchilperoord]

This is why I've learned to tweak things on the fly

[@EasilyBoredGamer]

pouring a drink out for all my players who nearly TPK'd because of a broom in Death House

[@aionicthunder]

My group nearly TPK’d from the animated armor: he knocked out the Warlock in one hit and there were only 3 of us

[@nomadicfenris755]

@@aionicthunder saaame, only in my case he knocked out the fighter and mage

[@dartsntoys8445]

OMG SAME they immediately slammed the closet and ran out and ended up burring the house down.

[@oddbjrnhaugen2742]

This hits too close to home bro! Almost killed my sister in law with that broom! Narrow hallways is a b right?

[@nomadicfenris755]

@@dartsntoys8445 Oh thank god, glad to hear i'm not the only one that ended up burning the house down

[@sethmaster135]

Challenge rating is supposed to equal the average level of a four man party, so two level threes are only CR 1.5 (3+3)/4. If my party doesn't have a way to heal, or a good tank; then I raise the enemy health, and drop their damage. If the party is low damage with a lot of tank, I lower health, and raise damage. Just a couple tips for people new to GMing.

[@CooperAATE]

Exactly how you're supposed to use it

[@JasperLane]

Thank you, was surprised at how tough half ogers were for my 2 friends both at level 3 but since they had an Imp familiar they did pretty good

[@rayswift5711]

That's actually really helpful!

[@evanluck1229]

I'm taking a screenshot of this comment, this is amazing

[@cordeliathedm]

Thanks for the tip 😁

[@shanenicholls4351]

The long haired gat guy is clearly the wizard before he learned fireball and went mad with power.

[@nairocamilo]

This hat he has now is before the polymorph that turned it into a wizard's hat

[@BelegaerTheGreat]

Omg this story is fucking awesome!

[@cptn_n_cola]

But... it’s ice knife guys... it’s nothing like fireball.

[@MasterOfManyMuffins]

@@cptn_n_cola Exactly why fireball made him mad with power.

[@recon441]

The lore 👁️👄👁️

[@stormthrush37]

I love how player Jacob just constantly stares vacantly and slack jawed into middle distance.

[@johne2404]

Was looking for this comment! 😂

[@wweeks]

I would buy Bluetooth dice so I could do this IRL

[@ricklawrence2515]

Yet somehow still knows his rolls without looking at the dice

[@5uperM]

@@ricklawrence2515 He belives in heart of the dice.

[@hopefulhyena3400]

That’s how I play too.

[@funnyvideoguy3216]

When the shower is freezing, so then you turn it a millimeter and it's boiling

[@maninalift]

Alternative title "at lower levels, PCs and monsters can die from one attack"

[@matttt60]

It's more accurate

[@matttt60]

And at higher levels, only pcs could die with one hit

[@JB-xl2jc]

Glass Cannons: The Game

[@farmazonlost]

@@matttt60 just to be revived and die again on the next turn.

[@cernanwinterfox85]

this is dnd showing its age more than anything. A staple of older rpgs, be they table top or vidya is same level matchups are fair, assuming you all minmaxed and everyone (pcs and npcs) rolls 10s everytime. RNG and poor optimization is a bitch.

[@alizard7617]

Doesn’t account for magic items Doesn’t account for monsters using tactics Doesn’t account for players using tactics Doesn’t account for action economy Yep, it’s Challenge Rating time

[@cutcutado]

There is also the Dice gods of DnD, who sometimes throw five Nat1s to one character in one combat encounter.

[@erikburzinski8248]

I remeber when I found this out when I was dming the first time.

[@PhileasLiebmann]

Also by it's definition can't account for any kind of force multiplier abilities like mind control and summoning

[@toneygabrick8258]

also doesnt account for feats

[@AltoMuchacho]

Not to mention: Party Composition, Terrain, Phases of the Fight, And previous encounters in the day

[@galactase8578]

I think this skit highlighted the main determinate of a combat, the initiative roll

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

have you still thought that at level 10?

[@easiestcc6451]

I disagree.

[@XxTaiMTxX]

The main determinate of combat: The dice rolls. If the party can't hit the enemy, they can't kill it. If the enemy can't miss, the party is doomed.

[@anthonyfaiell3263]

Only because of how damage focused 5e is. There's basically no point in CC because most combat is decided in the first 1-2 turns anyways. This is probably one of the hardest to balance, cuz a lot of players really don't like dragged out combat, but it would definitely balance the game and allow multi-turn effect spells with concentration to have more value over just fireball spamming and killing everything turn 1-2.

[@MayHugger]

⁠@@anthonyfaiell3263lmao Fireball is sooo much worse in so many situations than using CC.

[@kjs8719]

My DM recently forgot that my gnome is an assassin, and possessed him with a ghost and made him attack his companions... Who were all asleep... Her panic when she realised I was going to tpk was brilliant.

[@syd6654]

P A I N This hurts to read lol

[@kjs8719]

@@syd6654 it's ok, a god showed up and dragged the ghost out of me 😂

[@Incurafy]

Fun story, but RAW they'd have woken up after the first one, so. :P

[@kjs8719]

@@Incurafy dont they only wake up if there is something we to wake them? Dead people don't make noise

[@kjs8719]

@@Incurafy I did 12d4+12d6+4 damage, and we are all lvl7 with no tank, so the 2 I attacked were dead before I was halfway through punting up the damage. Nobody had any opportunities to make any noise, they were too busy being dead

[@moonchildlive9971]

The most beautiful thing is how Hat Guy can sense his die result without even looking at it. Whose soul do I have to sell to get that power?

[@arthand7672]

Probably your own.

[@krampusklaws2238]

Your own, that of your first three children and the still beating heart of a virgin sacrificed on the full moon of the Autumnal Equinox on holy ground after three hours of ritualistic ping pong.

[@krampusklaws2238]

@cak01vej It's a challenge rating of 3... maybe 9 but possibly 2

[@generik7414]

Divination Wizards be like

[@WorldWeave]

I love how he says “oh my god you killed them all” with a completely deadpan face

[@Zedrinbot]

Screw challenge rating, all my homies hate challenge rating

[@berengeval05]

Screw challenge rating, real pro gamers choose enemies based off of how many languages they can speak

[@dnd402]

i hate chalenge rating because one core spawn crawler can wipe an entire party of level two players in two turns by rolling passibly well, its CR1 and was meant to be fodder. i dont use CR anymore....

[@pseudolemon8272]

@@dnd402 rule number one of using the tools is to never link the tools.

[@pseudolemon8272]

return to monke, and by that i mean OSR where creatures are deadly but also go down quickly, so strategy before a fight and picking your fights is imperative. also fleeing, lots and lots of fleeing.

[@DrKing-zu6cx]

@@berengeval05 nah, pick based off whether they can speak giant elk

[@lauravturner]

I’ll never forget my first party, level 1, killing an giant ogre in like 4 hits but almost getting tpk’d by a fucking ledge.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

Was that ledge "ledge-endary"?

[@danielgaddis4120]

@@MonkeyJedi99 BOO, Boo this man, Boo. (to be fair that was punny, but, Boo)

[@1bucketcrusader834]

bearer of the curse: same

[@TrickyTrickyFox]

One party I ran a game for consisted of 5 level 1 PCs and they died to two drunk kobolds because of bad player tactics and some lucky rolls from the drunken bastards. To be fair, those kobolds were memeshly called Bonny and Clyde and became a semi-bbeg for the next party

[@MonkeyJedi99]

@@TrickyTrickyFox I really like how the victorious trash mobs got elevated importance due to a lucky fight against PCs. I need to borrow that idea!

[@ThatGuy-kf5kc]

Reminds me of when my part (level 5's, 6 of us) fought two wendigos (CR11), 150HP each with 16AC and could easily do over 40 damage per turn. Oh yeah and it was resistant to basically all damage, immune to fire and cold. My necrotic arrows were doing work None of us died, I was the only conscious one left of the party (aside from two others who fled,) I had to roll medicine checks to try stabilize them in addition to their death saving throws. Saved the last one when he was 2-2. DM was flabbergasted no one died

[@nessa-parmentier]

I threw a Death knight at at party of 3 level 5's once A chance for them I forgot to use most of his abilities, otherwise they'd be dead. But, and that's the best part, they loved it ! It was a hard but technically beatable fight I was DMing at DnD5 for the first time(plenty of experience before that) and just decided to throw away action economy and CR and rather focus on making fun encounters

[@Dracon350]

was in a session lately. dm threw us up against a wendigo as well, but he bomebrewed it a bit. 4 attacks per round, if they hit they delt around 20 - 25 damage a hit. we're all level 4 or something like that, and we only survived because I pissed it off enough to where it threw all its attacks at me while I dodged cause monks lol.

[@burgernthemomrailer]

⁠@@Dracon350Uh huh. 17 AC. Dodged everything with your 4 ki. Uh huh.

[@Dracon350]

@@burgernthemomrailer i had something like 19 AC, there were five of us wailing on the thing the entire time, and i only used my ki to use patient defense. that's 4 rounds of this thing swinging at disadvantage, with maybe one or two swipes being aimed at someone else. i don't need to justify my experience to some rando on the internet regardless, but sure man, you were there, i'm obviously just lying for them internet points.

[@burgernthemomrailer]

@@Dracon350 Uh huh. 19 AC. 20 DEX and 18 WIS. At level 4. Uh huh.

[@Leivve]

Three goblins dying in a single round is actually very balanced. You just burned a valuable spell slot. Throw 5 more encounters like that and the that sorcerer is going to be sweating bullets.

[@christophercheck1590]

Exactly, people forget that you're supposed to deal with 4-5 encounters of that CR before getting a chance to rest safely. That third group, when you're on fumes as a caster? That's when things get interesting. D&D is, and always has been, a game about resource management and having backup resources for when your big guns run out of ammo. People sometimes forget that. The MMO handles this well, with "rest shrines," which can only be used so often (or on higher difficulties, once per dungeon) and that forces casters especially to be mindful of their spells, or fighters to be careful about using action boosts, at least at lower levels.

[@NerothLoD]

Lol, I save everything for a rainy day :D

[@benjay3031]

@@christophercheck1590 That's why I never use my necklace of fireballs XD

[@Soulblast2]

@@christophercheck1590 No one ever plays the game like that though, 5 big encounters like that back to back is almost never done.

[@Eemi_Seppala]

@@Soulblast2 When we play there's barely one in a session.

[@MrJoeyWheeler]

My favourite: Gas Spore - CR 1/2. Has the potential to kill any characters in 18 hours or less unless they have access to disease removal.

[@matheusgiacomin2494]

And if they are inside a dungeon far from civilization, yeah.... they are fucked

[@LupineShadowOmega]

Rot Grubs. Just Jesus what were they thinking? You literally have to know its weakness or die.

[@matheusgiacomin2494]

Just using 3 gas spores inside the dungeon for my 5 level 5 players.

[@rafaelbordoni516]

There's another couple of monsters like this, I forgot their name, had something to do with maggots. They're like a mass of carnivorous worms and if you get hit or touch them, they will bite onto your skin and if you don't apply fire to the wound in 1 round, they will dig deeper and applying fire won't work anymore, only remove disease does. And what does it do? You take damage each round and uh, after a couple of rounds you literally die because they reach the heart or something. They're all CR 1/2 to 2 or something, it's an abomination of an encounter.

[@matheusgiacomin2494]

@@LupineShadowOmega oh my god these are awful. If no one kill the grubs they are more certainly dead

[@skycloud5695]

"Yeah, I don't know..." At the end there, in that defeated and frustrated tone, wasn't acting in the slightest.

[@TheKillaShow]

Challenge rating is chaotic evil if we keeping it real. You never truly know what that number means when combat starts.

[@jerrin1528]

Literally only look at it once just to gauge it slightly to the level so no cr 21s for a level 6 group. But yeah it sucks. I had a level 7 character kill a cr 13 raksasha in 2 hits.

[@KingNedya]

@@jerrin1528 That reminds me of the time I killed a chimera with the light spell at character level 2. Granted, the DM said after the battle that she made it weaker for us, but that thing still had a ton of health. It survived like 5 critical point blank ranged sneak attacks from the tiefling rogue soulknife (the player of which almost always had very good rolls).

[@slayeroffurries1115]

@@KingNedya a lvl 3 party of a fighter (greataxe), rogue (dagger), cleric and wizard deal the *average* damage of 75 per round unloading everything they have on the target, wich is 2/3 of a chimera's health. Suposing the chimera downs the fighter in this same round, the party now has the average damage of 57 in the next round wich is enough to kill it That being said the chimera has an average initiative of 10

[@Morbidity100]

It means you have to do math

[@KingNedya]

@@slayeroffurries1115 The way were were fighting it, we were dealing a lot less damage per round (and we were all level 2). Like 80% of the damage was from the tiefling, not even exaggerating. The fighter NPC was mostly tanking, not dealing much damage, the ranger was getting bad rolls, the warlock didn't know any spells and was also getting bad rolls, and I was watching from afar, coming up with various plans and tactics while providing light support. I only hit the chimera once, but that was all I needed for my plan.

[@nikopteros1659]

The dm really said: aw crap they killed my 3 goblins too easily i think i'll throw them a golden dragon

[@miguelsuarez-solis5027]

Lol right? I'm over here like um hobgoblins? Orcs? More goblins?

[@razenburn]

@@miguelsuarez-solis5027 More goblins is always a valid solution.

[@aevum6667]

A gold dragon wyrmling which has a challenge rating of 3 XD

[@Freekymoho]

@@razenburn just keep adding goblins until you get the mixture just right. You want variety? How about I throw in a goblin shaman, just for you

[@zombieslayer38]

"Oh no, they killed my weak monster with an area attack. What if, instead of encountering three in a group, they were ambushed by THREE, each in a different direction?" Also, no DM should ever have a party fight a wolf pack. Those things are insane. when ambushing. I almost caused a TPK with three wolves once, narrowly avoided because the ranger said "Eyo, wolf, whats up?" and when he learned the wolves were hungry, he offered them food instead of the player bleeding out on the ground, screaming about his gaping wolf-wounds.

[@lightning_11]

This is why I pick a monster and if the stat block doesn't seem right, I change it. My players hardly ever notice, except that one time they complained about a 4th-level wizard with 120 hit points. Then I used that as a mystery to play into a later module.

[@nuclear9929]

RIP my party, then the city, then the country, then the empire, and then all mortal life. All because someone killed a gas spore.

[@deathzonekiller2261]

WHAT THE HELL HOW?!

[@LJCyrus1]

@@deathzonekiller2261 creatures gas spore's disease kills sprout 2d4 baby gas spores that reach adulthood in a week.

[@deathzonekiller2261]

@@LJCyrus1 Holy shit, thats scary

[@kaaghalaa]

No one in the city has the ability to cure a disease? It's fairly simple

[@jabez2844]

@@kaaghalaa Hopefully, if they catch it in time. I doubt even a high level healer would have enough slots to keep up with a disease that contagious and lethal if it managed to spread to even a small portion of the city.

[@NegativeLegend]

So accurate it hurts

[@Parodox306]

@@GKplus8 If only challenge ratings were that accurate AM I RIGHT :D

[@AhmedHassan-lv6ld]

Why are you here ?.?

[@someone_one_one]

Hello there

[@myra_4]

@@someone_one_one General Kenobi? Is that you?

[@WarlockofThorns]

So true..

[@pricerowland]

This reminds of my first campaign as a DM, when it tooks *two hours* for the characters to fight past the guards at the door of a warehouse. I was so embarassed.

[@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868]

I love how so much 'official' encounters are just decided by initiative

[@peterwhite6415]

Alot of Official encounters are also often unbalanced. They take on acount a party number total and lvl, but not the classes. (i may be msitaken on the last point)

[@pseudolemon8272]

​@@peterwhite6415 they don't need to account for classes, because supposedly the damage is balanced between them. of course it is never perfectly balanced, there's a bunch of asymmetrical choices and crazy combos, which means you can't even account for all that. so you bloat a monsters HP, that way it'll last a couple of rounds, and you reduce damage and definitely cut down on AoE, so a couple of people can be alive to take it down. voilá, that's every crunchy game in existence. once you've seen behind the curtain it feels like a complete slog.

[@ceilyurie856]

@@pseudolemon8272 Pathfinder 2.0, Curse of Extinction, the first boss and the fight shortly after both enarly TPKed us because one was two water mephits, they cna each do acid arrow 1/day...we were all lvl 1. None of us had more than like 10hp. My bard and the ranger (who since retrained to fighter) were the only classes that could really take a hit...yeah...it was bad. And the first encounter with a single dinosaur and like something else KOed two of us. THen there was the damn halfing cultist and the enraged BEAR...nothing like almost getting party wiped almost every combat encounter. I took Familiar Master just so i could sue my familiar as a scout...the only saving grace was how cantrips work and the fact that as a spellscale I was able to sling Electric Arc for 1d4+1 with ability to arc to nearby foes. Oh, and kobold breath weapon.

[@TheHarimir]

@@ceilyurie856 how did you manage to all get below 10 hp? most race hp avrages around 8-10 and thats before aplying your level. i think some of the scrawniest races gives you only 6 hp but even with a worst case senario of 6 from class thats stil you at 12 hp

[@WizardBrandon]

@@TheHarimir yeah wait what. who makes you roll hp for your first level?

[@zadime92]

Most accurate part of this video: Sorcerer doesn't know how Ice Knife works

[@octocube2598]

what's ice knife? it's not in the 5e player's handbook

[@ChiefderWahrheit]

@@zadime92 Just want to add that they still have to roll when the attack on the first target misses.

[@Edmar_Thorn]

@@zadime92 That said, if the damage is higher than twice their hp they don't need to roll because they'd still die if they saved, have destroyed so many swarms of zombies with fireball due to that XD

[@zadime92]

@@Edmar_Thorn In case of Fireball then yes. But Ice Knife is a weird exception in that if you pass the save then you take no damage from the cold explosion. You're still very right about fireball but in this case i was making fun of the hilarity of most spellcasters forgetting to read their spells properly.

[@kkTeaz]

@@zadime92 *hit or miss* Idk why I thought of this I apologize for the horrendous actions that may be frowned upon in this ever growing democratic party we have and always will call/called 'society'

[@rubric167]

And then 15 quicklings almost entirely wiped my entire 4 person level 10 party

[@BramLastname]

Ever tried running 8 shadows?

[@wat5058]

"I should throw a hydra at my level six players!" -A DM that's about to become a mass murderer.

[@CappuccinoSquid]

We actually fought a Hydra as a 6th level party about a month ago, went pretty well thanks to our celestial warlock's consistent fire damage and our bear totem barbarian's GWM. Buuuuut we were also using variant flanking, which the hexblade warlock could reliably give the barb so he wasn't always reckless attacking for advantage. Barb also had bracers of defense, so he was pretty damn tanky. Aaand we got pretty lucky, it still could've gone either way.

[@ZK95004]

or like 3 quicklings

[@barco7004]

My lv4 party destroyed one

[@Crownsnek]

Cries in my Berserker barbarian player at level 5 one shotting all of my enemies with Great Reckless Greataxe attacks.

[@arijanknezevic1843]

Well our lv5 party is gonna fight one next session. Wish us luck

[@THEDONKAGE]

Welcome to challenge rating, where the difficulty is made up and the stats don't matter!

[@boobah5643]

I will not lie. I read that in Drew Carey's voice, and then had to go back and figure out A) Whose voice that was and B) Why.

[@jamersbazuka8055]

I understood that reference.

[@glif1360]

Well in DnD 4 it wasn't made up. But for some reason nobody talks about it.

[@aneffortlesssmile]

Amazing!

[@hammrshark9881]

Oh dear, as a new DM to 5E, this hits home! Adjusting difficulty has been one of my biggest challenges. Thanks for the laughs! I don't know who this long haired hat guy character is supposed to be either, but I love him.

[@tokeivo]

I simply abandoned 5E thanks to this. If the monster manual is not actually filled with information that enables building easy encounters, what's the value of it? I can make up my own monsters just as well as I can calculate the difference between the entries in MM, and what I actually need them to be. No time saved.

[@ohlookaflower.5961]

The "wait, let's go back, I don't want everyone to be dead" hurts me in my soul. I once had a dm redo an encounter 5 times because he kept tpking us and got angry at us for it

[@Micras08]

Depends on the group. I fucking hate it whenever a DM tries to save my character, but I know that most of them do it because they think it will make me happy :) Gotta be clear in communication with people before you decide to commit to [insert amount of hours here] hours of hobbytime with 2-5 other people ^^

[@Rinings]

If it’s late into a campaign, I understand how heart wrenching a death can be, but early on I can understand why a dm may want to not jus straight up kill you all

[@ohlookaflower.5961]

@@Rinings well it was literally the first session.

[@lightning_bishop260]

@@Micras08 I hate that shit too. If you want to resurrect my dead ass character, and the party happen to has a spell on hand like revivify etc., go for it. If not, don’t patronize me by giving me a free res. If death is not a consequence than all the excitement it drained out of the game. It should be challenging enough to be suspenseful and thrilling. Seriously if the party wants my character back that bad, make them go on a quest to revive him.

[@Micras08]

@@lightning_bishop260 True, mostly how I feel about it as well. Have you tried Dungeon World btw? There's an awesome revive mechanic built into the system, any character can roll "at death's door" when they "die" and then they have 3 outcomes depending on the roll: A) below 6, you're dead B) 7-9 something offers to bring you back on some condition C) 10+ you pulled through all by yourself, explain how that happened :) I like that system a lot and that's one of the reasons.

[@emophobe]

Never forget: A banshee can kill at all levels of play

[@havokmusicinc]

which is why they're CR19 in pathfinder

[@Xenibalt]

@@havokmusicinc pathfinder suxx dixx :3

[@MurkyTheSquid]

*Howl cackles in Bodak*

[@chroprs]

My level 20 character who's fought ancient dragons, avatar of gods, and otherworldly beings bent on destroying the world, has a 55% chance of dying to a single banshee scream.

[@deathzonekiller2261]

@@chroprs Holy shit

[@XanceMRevola]

Another factor: your players' willingness to burn spell slots / x per short/long rest abilities. Yes, a sorcerer can wipe out a party of goblins with one ice knife, but maybe they wouldn't because "well, we're third level and it's just goblins, we can just throw a couple cantrips" On the other hand, the sorcerer might go "oh fuck it's a green hag" and casts empowered scorching ray, dealing anywhere (on three successful hits) from 12 to 36 hit points, cutting off, most likely, a quarter of the hag's health.. THEN maybe they quicken spell toll the dead, dealing 1d12 on a failed save, which could, all told, in a very lucky situation, bring the hag from 87 HP down to 39. Then the rogue goes! I think a LOT of hags are run as "flee or bargain when shit gets too real," so I imagine the encounter is nearly done by the end of round one. but anyway yeah there's so many factors to consider when building your encounters

[@zfrankhauser4292]

I felt this video so hard, I threw a couple cr 1 spectres at a lvl 3 party the other day and they lost a member of the party

[@micah2288]

Specters are extreme spiral monsters. If you start losing you stay losing.

[@t.g.hyperlibrarysciencestu9095]

Incorporal dead take half damage from so much they basically have double the hit points.

[@rattvisa]

_shadow joined the shat_

[@Halosty45]

How big was the party? How many specters?

[@protester2706]

@@rattvisa During my first time DMing (2 months ago!), I nearly wiped my two players' level 1 rogue-only party in session 1 by throwing six Crawling Hands (CR 0) at them, thinking they were a fair fight since they're so weak. Then they won initiative. Three of them hit the first player, knocking them unconscious before they could act, and they started rushing the second player and their level 2 wizard companion (so glad I added this one in right before the session). They took a few hits, but managed to kill them all and heal back the first player. They came across a few skeletons that they dispatched at a ridiculous speed (even though they're higher CR!), before finally coming across... a lone CR 1/2 *shadow*. Towards the end of a 30 minutes fight, the first player had once again been knocked unconscious and was at 2 death saves failed and their companion wizard was also out. The last player standing attacked the shadow, hoping to finish it, but he rolled low on his damage, failing to kill it and leaving it with 2 hp because it resisted all their attacks. At this point, I was stressed out of my mind and trying to find a way for my players not to lose their characters on the first session. That's when a miracle happened. I rolled at nat 20 on the wizard's death save, bringing it back to consciousness with 1 hp, while the last player was being struck down. I'm not one to fudge rolls so, cold sweat running down my back, I threw the dice once more to try and Firebolt my own damn monster. I was ecstatic describing how just as the shadow loomed over them, the last player's rogue held on just long enough to consciousness to witness the wizard, still on the ground, point her finger towards the shadow and shooting it through the chest, smoking it instantly. A three-adventurer party averaging level 1.33 nearly lost against a 1/2 CR monster. Fuck shadows.

[@shifrel12]

"Surely two Ropers, at Challenge Rating 5, is merely a distraction for a level-11 party to encounter in The Underdark, and give them an idea of the freakish dangers that lurk within." >One combat and two downed PCs later "Ooookay then. Those were the last Ropers in the world. No more Ropers."

[@TheBayzent]

I'd say half the party downed is a good way to emphatise the dangers of the underdark 🤷🏾‍♂️. I wish I had more of those and less "end campaign TPK's"

[@coinshot]

25' reach and parlyzing grab is a bitch.

[@TheGangsterKitten]

had a party of level 8s. 4 Players and a strong NPC follower. Almost died to hobgoblins and ogres with catapult support. its crazy what you can do with a bunch of low CR bad guys and good tactics

[@LeonArgent]

@@TheGangsterKitten Pfff take well sized nest kobolds, average cr of 2 and give them perep time. Theyll eat a party on their mid teens

[@digestivecookie7026]

@@TheGangsterKitten Mhm! Vice versa, it’s really surprising how much players can do with the right tactics - I was in a level 5 party of 5 once who recruited 8 NPCS for hire, another NPC friend of the party’s - 14 people total - to siege a hobgoblin base with dens of zombies. Beforehand, the rogue and druid snuck in to sully their food supplies, which meant most of them would be sick the day of the siege While that’s almost definitely a war crime lmao, it translated to “almost everyone has disadvantage” With constant archer volleying and a few controlled fires here and there, we managed to kill a good uh. hundred or so enemies with only like- 2 NPC deaths. My archer character managed to corner an entire platoon of hobgoblins with spike growth, which was fun My character very nearly died though Had to distract a horde of zombies so they wouldn’t massacre the mercenary archers, and ended up being cornered a round before the rest of the party could arrive I got *really* lucky. The zombies rolled low on their hit dice. What could’ve been an instant death (or at least a few lost death saves) was one hit away from being knocked out Though maybe I just had a really forgiving dm... We also happened to assault it while the All-Powerful Terrifying Leader was gone, though that was definitely more narrative-building to introduce us to him rather than intentional strategy on our part

[@thomasderosso5625]

When I heard "gold dragon wrymling", I smiled like the Grinch.

[@TTRPGSarvis]

I was in a 9th-level party that got bodied by an intellect devourer.

[@XpVersusVista]

maybe it taught you a lesson about how not to dumb intelligence 😁 this alone is the reason i will include an intellect devourer in every game somewhere.

[@pablopopo7891]

@@XpVersusVista Thats a bad lesson to teach. One stat is bound to be trash for most characters, especially if you roll poorly.Why are you punishing your players for wanting to play not intelligent characters? or, worse, punishing them for being forced to have int as their lowest stat given the class theyre playing and/or the stats they rolled?

[@Handles-Suck-YouTube]

@@XpVersusVista So you're intentionally punishing people for... A) Playing a class where Int is literally useless and not wanting to waste their precious stats. B) Players who want to have a low Int score to suit their character concepts. That doesn't sound all that engaging.

[@Alkezo1]

@@XpVersusVista Personally, I never play low-intelligence characters. I usually try to have it at least a decent score, sometimes favoring it over Constitution. Despite that, its still absurd to punish players for having a dump stat. Unless you roll amazing, you're always gonna have a generally lower stat on at least one attribute.

[@viator_eagle5936]

To be fair a good combat encounter is extremely hard to determine if you are playing with Experienced players or a larger-than-average group

[@kentuckyrex]

Lol. I just started playing last week and this reminds me of a homebrew mission we had within the Lost Mine of Phandelver campaign. We are all currently level 3 and we were getting supplies from a cave we had previously visited. The DM (a chill dude and still growing as a DM) says "I'm gonna have to come up with a plan because the book doesn't have anything." So, on our second pass getting the crates and barrels, I happen to run into three Gricks. These dudes are pretty tanky, but nothing we couldn't handle.... until one almost killed our Goblin Sorcerer friend. I was the only one nearby (I play a human wizard) so I make it my mission to protect our fellow adventurer since the rogue is a ways off in the encounter dealing with one he almost has dead. I roll magic missile and roll max damage.... still alive but it's bleeding. Our little Goblin friend has 4 HP left. Rogue kills his. Our Cleric gets back on Discord. The DM gets creative (since he WAS with us for the journey to the cave, just outside) and allows him to be the cleanup man. He rolls his initiative in the server, happens to be the next to take a turn, casts thunderclap and it finishes off the Gricks. I dunno what I'd do if our Goblin compatriot fell. His character and mine have bonded quite nicely in roleplay sessions.

[@weeb_trassh52]

Love new player stories, hope you're still playing dnd a year on from this comment :) P.s. as a dm for quite a while (6-7 years) it makes me smile hearing about people's first times in the game!

[@pioughd87]

When he says “yeah, I don’t know” I felt that

[@James-oj8zr]

I usually just end up doing dynamic challenge rating, like, ‘oh the dragon has only 16 hit points? ... looks like it just got another 30 hit points tehe’.

[@BramLastname]

Yeah same, if it has less HP than half the total HP of the party, It should either be able to down a player in max 2 turns, Or it should have more HP.

[@Nihzlet]

The most effective patch I've found is to use the encounter building system as is, but then boost monster HP for the important monsters (and maybe the minion-y ones if they only have like 6 hp each or something). This mostly grew out of doing exactly what you just said repeatedly. This especially works for my games because I don't tend to run lots of combat encounters in one day -- my games have more intrigue, RP, exploration, etc.

[@gonebalance8482]

I freakin love "Jacob NPC": 0:05

[@valentinosella3410]

The evolution of Jacob's hair would've made Charles Darwin proud

[@Flummiification]

As someone who literally died to the 3 Goblins ambush i still can relate

[@dawiddulian2403]

As someone who literally did the 4 Goblins ambush i can confirm

[@KevinMacku]

The goblin ambush that begins Lost Mine of Phandelver is often regarded as one of the most difficult combats in the module. And that includes enemies with multiattack at Level 2 and a Green Dragon. But on the other hand, a single Wizard with the spell Sleep just negates all problems with early combats *instantly*. D&D balance is weird.

[@Flummiification]

@@KevinMacku I have toi admit, I went in a bit bold and underestimating it hard. now i read this especially^^

[@debreczeniarpad9956]

Two goblins vs two 1st PC. Six goblin killing a 6th level Monk.

[@THEPELADOMASTER]

@@KevinMacku tell me about it, phandelver was my very first dnd experience. And I got fucked by one of those goblins in a bush that rolled a nat 20. I didn't even get to do anything because that was the very first goblin

[@KK25Gaming]

The one Jacob staring blankly into the distance consistently is such a wonderful image.

[@andresarancio6696]

"A shadow is less than CR 1, it cannot be that hard" > Proceeds to almost kill a lvl 8 Barbarian in one round with three of them

[@snuckytoes8427]

Yeah, shadows are really poorly balanced. Either they drop practically right away or it’s a TPK, I have never seen anything in between.

[@silverdeathgamer2907]

@@snuckytoes8427 Yeah one moonbeam can easily wipe out a swarm of shadows due to the radiant vunerability, spirit guardians also will crush them, clerics would turn undead are also great and a paladin that hits can divine smite to pretty much guarantee a kill on one most of the time. If you have none of those things and are ambushed and roll poorly on initiative things could turn out badly.

[@NathanielCoran]

Just made my comment about shadows then I saw yours xD They're so ridiculous, I nearly lost my barb/ranger to a pack of them before she even knew what she was fighting - left her on 1 STR and completely out of the fight. CR 1/2 my ass lol.

[@platinumdragon3007]

The design of Shadows seriously confuses me. The Wight, a CR 3 monster, has an an attack that deals a measly 5 damage on average and only reduces max HP by that amount on a failed DC 13 CON save. Meanwhile, the Shadow, a CR 1/2 monster, has an attack that deals 9 damage on average AND reduces STR by 1d4 with NO saving throw. Personally I think the Shadow would be a cool monster even without any draining ability, but if I were to revamp its drain I'd definitely start by giving it a saving throw.

[@Haveuseenmyjetpack]

CRs...are measured...against...parties...of 3...to 5....adventurers.

[@Wicklust]

Flashbacks to our level 5 domain of light cleric tracking down, finding and killing a CR8 Assassin while the rest of the party were arguing which way the cleric went.

[@zakur9622]

Sounds like an awesome cleric

[@nispelsm]

@@zakur9622 Clerics can be scary powerful with the right spells and build. In one Pathfinder campaign I played, I had an Oracle who was basically a fantasy version of Thor by the time she was level 11. Between her class perks, meta-magic feats, and spell choice, she was a tempest of death.

[@aeroanosupremo]

The party: he must be at the chapel The cleric: Dead Or Alive you're coming with me

[@donutboi467]

@@nispelsm id argue Thor is a fantasy version of Thor lol

[@nessredwood4830]

Our party were level 2, when we obliterated an entire bandit camp (about 8-12 of them) and their leader who had a homebrew sword that dealt 1d20 damage, without taking a single hit. And then next session we were running scared from a single bear for rounds, because the only one who was able to successfully pass a wisdom saving throw was our donkey.

[@Karina-Loves-Andreas]

Haha, I'm so fucking new at this, I don't even fully comprehend what you're saying, BUT IT'S FUNNY AS SHIT. Friday is my new, "newbie level one" group of adventurers 2nd outing...I expect it to go a similar way (running around trying to hold our asses to the bottom of our spinal columns)🤣😳😂😳🤣😳😂😳🤣

[@nessredwood4830]

@@Karina-Loves-Andreas That's cool! I hope you'll have a great time playing dnd and make a lot of your own memorable stories along the way :)

[@Espionia]

The fact that 4 shadows jumping a level 20 wizard can near oneshot it with a bit of luck at CR 1/4, CR really is just a strange guideline

[@BramLastname]

Shadows are really weak on their own tho, Their support capabilities is what makes them so scary. Adding a shadow to any encounter makes it significantly more difficult, Just because you can't risk keeping it alive.

[@Espionia]

@@BramLastname That and all it takes is one hit and it will completely alter an encounter. The barbarian goes from 18 STR to 14 STR and boom, your frontline is really hurt. I agree through, by themselves they arent that much of a threat but to be fair, rot grubs arent much of a threat by themselves but if you get hit and dont know what to do, you are fuuuuucked, especially if the party is at an earlier level

[@BramLastname]

@@Espionia well Rot Grubs aren't difficult they're unfair, That's why I'm never gonna use them.

[@Espionia]

@@BramLastname Lmao very well said. If I ever throw rot grubs at my party, its probably because I want to kill them... that or Trents

[@BramLastname]

@@Espionia if I ever use them they had it coming and they'd better be friends with the locals.

[@tackywacky0517]

I seriously love that the Sorcerer persona is basically how Fireball Wizard explained Sorcerers when he DM'd XD

[@quintincasada4154]

This is one of the things I fear most about dming. I'm fairly new, and I don't know the fine line between to easy and to hard

[@calcumalators]

Honestly my party have been steam rolling since they hit level 3 so I'm just gonna go at them HARD and fudge rolls if I need to. Phandelver has this weird curve where it starts hard and gets easier (in my experience, anyway)

[@tokeivo]

So, DMing something like FATE is easy, and DMing D&D us too hard. In between you'll find stuff like Mutants and Masterminds, Gumshoe, Chronicles of Darkness. And way way WAY out to the right on the scale, way past D&D, you'll find exalted.

[@CapnShades]

Use CR for suggestions, but fine tune it by measuring average damage per round against the PC's hit points. Repeat the process in reverse, and do a little math to make sure that after just a few rounds, the party's damage output meets the enemy's/enemies' HP but they take some healthy hits in turn without too many people dying. If you want to be REALLY thorough while using less effort, look up Improved Initiative (best tech DM tool EVER). Import the PCs' data and run combat as if they were at the table. 20-30 easy clicks and you should have a good idea how hard it'll really be.

[@niscent_]

if you really wanna be sure the party can take on an encounter. what i used to do when planning was to precalculate the stats of the party as if they were a single creature. mainly their total average damage, their average attack roll bonuses, their total exp and average armor class. it's really quick and simple. now you do the same with the group of enemies you wanna pit against them. and you already simplified your evaluation of a whole encounter to just judging a simple 1v1. next you got attack rolls and armor class. you can calculate the average hit rate of both groups on one another. and you know how often the party will hit and how often they'll get hit. multiply the hit rate with the average damage roll and you now have the average damage per turn. look at which group total hp will go down first at this rate. when those numbersare close, it means the encounter is roughly balanced damage wise, and what will make the difference is tactics and use of special effects. at this point, and if it's tactics that determine the outcome of the encounter you have a lot of leeway as a dm to make it harder or easier on the fly without cheating. if you feel it's getting too hard, just make the enemy fall for every combat tactic the party uses, if it's not enough you can still make an enemy do something really stupid but believable. if on the contrary you feel like it's too easy, just make the enemies more cunning, really try hard to get to the backliners of the party. the "they all start looking at the caster" always make people sweat and gives a lot of work to the martials, but is barely more of a threat.

[@colinsanders9397]

"Yeah, I don't know." The motto of every DM ever.

[@cadonstrain6217]

I once sent four Scarecrows against a three person party of lvl 7s. It was a TPK.

[@jacksonschumacher175]

how?

[@AirKIng74]

Fuck maybe I should reconsider sending 4 scarecrows against my level 3s then.

[@Endershock1678]

Same thing happened to me, but it was only two scarecrow and a lvl 3 party (for reference, it was a party of 4 and I had just solo'd two CR 1 creatures one Kong rest ago). We got TPK'd, one guy got stun locked, we used 16 potions, and we hit a total of 5 attacks over a 45 minute battle.

[@Endershock1678]

@@jacksonschumacher175 Paralysis. If they are set right, they can potentially even stun lock several party members at once. I once had a 12 turn game where a player only got 2 turns because he was stuck in stun.

[@jacktimson2401]

There's your first problem. Larger groups always hit above their weight, unless the power levels are massively out of balance

[@dallinadams9422]

This is very accurate. The encounters tend to be crazy difficult or hardly an inconvenience. It's a fine line of being balanced. Things also depend on the party composition and how many guys they were up against, and if anyone employs tactics.

[@martingon9156]

Question, are you gonna go back to the “class lore” series? That seemed like a very cool concept for a series and I hope it comes back. Anyways great vid!

[@itsyagirlVofficial]

Yeah! You could do one on paladin for sure!

[@beholdthesupergirl]

"Ok give us something really, REALLY lower challenge rating, lower than a dragon or a hag!" "Um...oh god, um...a rat." "A Giant Rat?" "No, actually, just a normal fucking rat, roll initiative." "The rat goes first, it hits and attempts to infect you with plague, roll a constitution saving throw. You fail. Ok...you'll be dead in 4 hours." LOL xD

[@ohexenwahno5652]

Gas Spore

[@BramLastname]

@@ohexenwahno5652 Yeah, One moment you're fighting a mute beholder, The next you're fighting a lethal poison.

[@ohexenwahno5652]

@@BramLastname I almost tpk'd my party with Skulks, yet they destroyed a hydra with no spells left...

[@BramLastname]

@@ohexenwahno5652 Well Skulks are similar to Shadows in that, while they aren't very strong Their utility makes it so that they're a more immediate threat than most things you put next to them.

[@ohexenwahno5652]

@@BramLastname oh, but it was only skulks, cr 1/2 vs level 6 characters

[@enderreaper5332]

instead look at strength and weakness study the best way to kill the party and if that does not work HOMEBREW

[@Volzarok]

And all of that was more balanced than the death house of Strahd

[@tastycastle1976]

Lol, imagine fighting 6 vampire spawns as 3 lvl 3 characters in Volachia(we ran away)

[@nerdboy02]

@@tastycastle1976 I mean, yeah, the DM should make it clear in CoS that the players can run into monsters that are beyond their abilities and should constantly be thinking about escape plans. It's impossible to have an effective horror module if your players know they can effortlessly slice up any monsters that cross their path.

[@tastycastle1976]

@@nerdboy02 I'm not complaining tho. Last two games were pretty intense, and now we're level 5 (because enemies were cr4-5), so that should make it a l LOT easier. ( It's still a bull that we faced an enemy that can instakill without death saving throws)

[@lluewhyn]

@@nerdboy02 The worst fight I saw in CoS actually closes off the escape routes. There is an encounter in Castle with TWO Iron Golems (CR 16 monsters), doors slam shut preventing escape, and the encounter flavor text says that the Iron Golem Poison Breath automatically fills up the entire area due to it being enclosed. It's almost a guaranteed TPK if a fight breaks out.

[@Anarkittie]

We found it during the day and called the city guards to help, which made it much easier. We also killed the hags at level 3 because we just blew up the windmill. Had no idea there were survivors inside.

[@drago3036]

Wow, that was a really misbehaving dragon considering it is a GOLD one.

[@Marcusjnmc]

it was young, maybe it meant to use it's other breath weapon but got mixed up, maybe it'll feel bad & rush to an adult gold dragon to get help healing them , maybe the brass dragon was a friend it asked to look after them while it got help but GOD revived them and then they killed it, & now the adult gold dragon on it's way to help them will not be pleased

[@SpectralKnight]

@@Marcusjnmc I am stealing this for a lowlevel party :) The dragon cocks its head and looks at the surviving members of the party, roll insight [17] It seems confused. The dragon flies hurriedly into the air. It seems like its has somewhere to be. Let the party deal with the aftermath continue like normal. Suddenly they hear and earth-shattering roar, the trees bend and shake. Roll perception [7] okay you chalk it up to seismic activity. Or maybe something is hunting further away. A little later: Roll perception [18] you spot the glimmer of scales as they briefly reflect in the rays of the sun. Your dragon friend is back for round two, you can't quite hit it yet it's out of view. What do you do? [ready our weapons, hold attack]. As you ready your weapons the same gold dragon swoops out of the treeline. 1-2 rounds of noncombat from dragons side. You hear the roar again. This time you are sure it's a roar. Almost lazily yet still as gracefully as any bird you spot it as it descends upon your group. Another dragon it's scales much thicker and resembling gold. Its tail alone about the size of the other dragon. The massive creature lands in front of you. Intelligence in its eyes it seems to be contemplating what to do.

[@Marcusjnmc]

@@SpectralKnight ^.^ have fun

[@KjoshWaddellBananasAreGood]

Could easily be an evil party

[@fdimension]

Personally, I don’t like the alignment system, so I don’t use it. So a gold dragon could be more aggressive. Not necessarily what’s going on here, but it’s worth thinking about.

[@Shnewk2]

lmao the player you were acting as was hilarious. Just staring off into space not even reading the dice lol

[@Mr_Kriegon]

Imagine if he had the Garlic Bread Domain Cleric in on the action. Enemies would be dead long before supper.

[@exemida]

Do you like garlic bread? No I hate it. *garlic bread hater ceases to exist*

[@sandwichmonster7067]

"Screw it, were playing something else. Let's see.... ah, 'Dark Heresy!' That sounds COMPLETELY fair and balanced!"

[@loganreads90]

I like that game

[@zerg0s]

I mean, for one, the challenge rating in DH 2e actually works. ...mainly because it rates things as “lethal”, “lethal and hard to kill” and “guaranteed lethal, which is why we have special, equally lethal characters just for this encounter for you here”

[@heatherverhagen3911]

I feel this in my soul. The characters in my campaign are level 3 and an enemy spellcaster just used a 'darkness' cantrip to cast darkness. Noone can get ride of the darkness because we don't have level 3 spells. yet To make things much, much worse, the warforged just walked across a bridge and it collapsed, so half of the party is on one side, and half is on the other. I think we all might die a terrible, terrible death. I'd say that, in general, any DM should look at which characters are in the party, their level, how they play their characters and their abilities.

[@johnsmith-fy8jo]

I would agree. Encounters need to be tailored for the party. A party with no or material requiring spells would not have an easy time escaping a prison cell.

[@magestower4227]

I mean CR is meant for a party of 4-5 members using everything standard to the core books so there are a lot of exceptions and strange things you'll find depending on party size minmaxing number of monsters and so on

[@TheWorldBelowDnD]

On the other hand, dragons breath was specifically balanced around it hitting two players who both fail their saves...

[@magestower4227]

@@TheWorldBelowDnD yes but it was also blanched off of the party tank more than likely failing and average hp since they can't predict rolls and the party tank usually has a +2 or +3 CON

[@homelessperson5455]

In dndbeyond's encounter creator, they have a difficulty rating that adjusts for party lvl and # of members. I wonder if that does any better.

[@katherineminor3402]

@@homelessperson5455 that just uses the encounter building rules from the dmg. The DM lair just made a video about this go check it out.

[@sjorsfarla3767]

0:30 the sorcerer casts ice knife, thats 1d10 damage, rolls a d6 and get an 8! Yo this is a wild game XD

[@WizardBrandon]

might have a +2 from something. like i know wizards in the evocation area get a +1/2lvl damage added to their evocation spells?

[@sjorsfarla3767]

@@WizardBrandon he still didn' t roll the right dice. Even rolled a d12 for the 2d6 damage xD

[@XPtoLevel3]

he was a little confused

[@UmbralKitten]

And then there's our group fighting cr 10 at level 6 because in our dm's words "we're all stupidly overpowered and he wants to kill one of us REALLY badly."

[@legendnetwork9153]

2nd level party: die to a single ogre 10th level party: are completely unkillable 20th level party: unplayable in every way

[@Ozhar1]

I played a game to 20 last year, and it was way more manageable than I expected. I fumble over my level 12 Pathfinder character just trying to roll a craft (alchemy) check

[@moofy69]

playing in a game currently at level 16. we annihilated a dragon turtle, but were almost tpk to 15 specters until our cleric remembered turn undead and decimated them

[@agamerdoesthings9317]

Jokes on you, tarrasque

[@chrismanuel9768]

@@moofy69 Multiple monsters can multiply the challenge rating. For example, 4 CR2 monsters is not CR8 monster. They're dealing significantly more damage per round and can quickly wipe a party caught unaware. I don't remember off the top of my head, but I think it's something like "multiply the CR by 1.5 for every additional monster", so 2 CR2s is a CR5 encounter. 3 CR2s is 2 + 3 + 4, a CR9 encounter. By the time you get to 4 monsters it goes from 8 to 14. That's A HUGE difference. 15 of anything is CRAZY.

[@moofy69]

@@chrismanuel9768 yep, action economy is king, but effective aoe is king-er. We had a battle map with exactly 100 enemy kobolds at one point. But 3 well placed fireballs from our wizard trivialized it

[@murkyhydra6351]

What do you mean? A level five character could definitely take a hill giant 1v1.

[@swordsman111982]

CR is supposed to be a group of 4 players of that level can defeat the enemy of that CR. It was changed in 5e from older editions

[@janehrahan5116]

@@swordsman111982 Its like that in 3.5 and pathfinder as well. Futheremore adnd doesn't have challenge ratings, just hit dice xp scaling (gygaxian don't care about fair fight)

[@rattvisa]

I hink cr is calculated the total amount of levels of the entire part devided by 3 (rounded down,probobly) so five level five players should according to cr be able to take on cr 8 things, but i might be wrong

[@TheRealmDrifter]

​@@swordsman111982 Oh, I thought it was 5 players

[@Deviant_Entity]

Well, yes, they probably could, but at least one if not all three of them would certainly die. A young green dragon is CR 8, and it could KO all of them with a single use of its breath weapon and a couple of failed CON saves. KCalkins is right: 4 equally-leveled characters are an even match for 1 monster of the same CR as their level. The 5e DMG has a whole section dedicated to helping design encounters, and a simple website called Kobold Fight Club does the work for you (and hundreds of other websites, but that’s the one I prefer).

[@ProduccionesPaquito]

I have two tpk stories that are eerily similar to this scenario. The first one I buit myself. Party of 4 level 3 players vs 2 shadows and 2 thugs. Holy shitamoly who balanced shadows, what kind of sick psychopath did this? So that one didn’t work, let’s play a published adventure! How about ghosts of saltmarsh? 5 characters dead in intro sesion, 2 of these were the replacement characters for the first two. The first chapter of ghosts of saltmars, as written, is entirely made up of psycho monster jumpscares that come out of nowhere. “I go check the door” “suddenly 3 giant weasels come out of the gras and eviscerate you, 18 damage” (makes new character, party gets to the kitchen) “I check… the drawers….” “Oh you know it! 4 giant centipedes come out of the furniture, breaking through the wood and deal 5 damage to you plus… holy shit 26 poison damage jesus christ”.

[@Str8Twink]

I've just learned to pick thematic monsters and nerf them mid fight like halving hp or dmg.

[@haku8135]

"a wounded blank emerges from the cave" Is a very valuable tactic.

[@dragonwithamonocle]

On the contrary, my party often uses good spacing and strategy, and against single opponents I keep finding that I have to double their hp while simultaneously lowering attack power. At level three, I had them "kill" an undead juvenile wyvern. It had the adult wyvern's HP and toned down attacks. They saw the venom dripping from the tail and promptly removed it. There was some chaos when they cut off its head and it kept fighting. That was a blast. I always ended up struggling to balance hp with damage output, though. Below level seven, stuff tends to have too little hp for the damage they deal. I ended up getting really good at making more balanced custom monsters from scratch. Maybe I'll end up posting stat sheets sometime.

[@Str8Twink]

@@dragonwithamonocle That's the same idea. You just buff or nerf the fights to make story sense so nothing is randomly too easy or hard.

[@Jebu911]

Fun part is when i play this game as dm i play against guys who hardly ever play the game so stats can be whatever i feel like and no one calls my bullshit. I just toss some dice behind the screen and eh hp is what ever i feel like will at least down a one guy if its a "boss" fight.

[@vedritmathias9193]

I threw 3 giant spiders at my level 3 4-person party. The spiders only landed a single hit.

[@lefish22]

Yup, feels bad man haha. "Challenge Rating" is basically about the average Enemy(s) vs the average Player(s), mathematically speaking. Unfortunately it doesn't take to account for "Luck" & "Decision-making" on both the DM's and Player's side. Thankfully this can be mitigated with some clever storytelling.

[@velocita5435]

Fun fact on my second ever campaign of dnd the third session we met a hag in a tower but she appeared as a completely normal old lady because I dumped all my stats into charisma and wisdom (I was a warlock) I could tell wich potion was witch (she had potions in this tower for sale) so I from the start wanted to kill her because I was bored but we didn’t know and we thought the dm was going to be angry but then she became the hag we all Levels up after her defeat but in the middle of the battle my friend was in death saves so I did an arcana check in the potions it failed so I grabbed two random potions one healed my friend and the other gave me x2 damage and I killed the hag

[@nitsanshamay3883]

Perfectly balanced, only thing we need now is a cup of tea.

[@EverlastingEclipse]

Better be yorkshire gold

[@SarudeDanstorm]

Next up, D&D 5e is a perfectly balanced game with absolutely no exploits.

[@SenhorAlien]

@@SarudeDanstorm except this nifty little trick that grants you immortality at level 1 😏

[@rattvisa]

@@SenhorAlien or this other trick that is like the medival railgun

[@Gothic_Analogue]

Are you a Lord or Lady yet whilst pouring a cup of Yorkshire tea gold?

[@esperthebard]

A CR 3 monster vs. only two 3rd-level characters is rated as a Deadly encounter (Hard for three characters, Medium for four). Just saying.

[@fuckgoogle6716]

Jokes, they exist and you might want to learn what they are.

[@MEXICANMAU19]

CR is a made with a party of 4 with a healer in mind

[@TuberTugger]

@@fuckgoogle6716 I tried to google what jokes were but I ended up fucking them

[@virtualmartini]

@@fuckgoogle6716 but the joke doesn't work because CR actually does make sense. You don't know what a joke is so don't go trying to lecture people about them.

[@KaeganThornhillTheCyberRaven]

To me when it comes to "Challenge Rating" there's a Tier ist within each "Level", not to mention some Monsters are built to be either taken on Solo or by a Small/Large Party.

[@No-is2cj]

When you're so early you can't think of a good joke or sarcastic comment to make so you just watch the video like a normal person

[@CybernetCatgirl]

I expected this to have a shadow as the CR 1 monster that wiped the party or something, not gonna lie.

[@daleyhuard3675]

Samee

[@protester2706]

Shadows aren't even CR1, they're CR 1/2. Which makes this even worse, imo. Nearly wiped my entire player's party fighting ONE.

[@averywhitaker3513]

@@protester2706 fun fact, you can fit 57 into a moderate difficulty encounter for four level twenties. This is an almost guaranteed death if you dont have a cleric

[@averywhitaker3513]

@asdrubale bisanzio gotta get off a quick tp then, surrounding is how you set up hordes to kill

[@averywhitaker3513]

@asdrubale bisanzio I forgot that the only kind of characters were aarakocra wizard/rogue multiclasses, my bad

[@chadnorris8257]

As a DM it can be really hard to know what to send at my party that won't be a cakewalk, but also won't mow them down.

[@elephantguy0790]

Beholder isn’t CR 20+, that’s only one example

[@pivs]

He could've just pointed at the beholder CR and the video would've done just as good lol

[@creature6715]

@asdrubale bisanzio NPC's don't have class levels

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

@@creature6715 There's no rule that says they can't

[@elephantguy0790]

@asdrubale bisanzio I’m talking about 5e not 3.5

[@Anegor]

Beholders aint all that hard after a point, sure always dangerous, but we've gone from struggling for life to rolfstomping one a few levels later.

[@cutcutado]

Me a newbie DM with a newbie group: "Oh look, imma put a nice encounter for my group of newbies, oh dude, they can ACTUALLY fight a dragon? This can be SOOOO epic for them." My players, later: "DUDE WHY DID WE NEED TO FIGHT A DRAGON?! WE ALL DIED!"

[@darrouse1789]

A group of 1st lvl absolute newbies (literally their first game) killed a white dragon wyrmling. Which is CR 2. Well yeah one of them instadied because of ice breath but hey, fun times right?

[@cutcutado]

@@darrouse1789 Yeah, the definition of Epic.

[@TheBayzent]

I wiped an entire 4 1st level players party with 6 kobolds because of my insane good luck on dice games...only one getting one attack in was the tabaxi barbarian, killed 2 and got swarmed with pack tactics... Kobolds are CR 1/8...

[@cutcutado]

@@TheBayzent Yeah, those fucking dice rolls

[@theelltrain8985]

“Um actually, golden dragon are of good alignment so unless it was like controlled or something that doesn’t make much sense.” … … “A fully grown golden dragon swoops down and kills the rogue.”

[@OPTTWoodrow]

And this is without getting into gohsts, shadows, and other 'spirit' undead. TPK waiting to happen!

[@kryptonianguest1903]

Magic attacks or GTFO.

[@LupineShadowOmega]

Or stuff with mechanics that just outright kill you if you don't know what to do. Rot Grubs was my example. Though the Bodak is another fun one.

[@rafaelbordoni516]

And the classic intellect devourer. I'm impressed it didn't made into this video.

[@havokmusicinc]

Pathfinder 1e's Shadow is fucking terrifying at CR3. Incorporeal touch attacks (ie, bypassing most AC) that deal strength damage (ie, literally lowering your Str score) and if you hit Str 0 from this damage, you PERMANENTLY become a Shadow under the original's control in a couple rounds. Plus, being incorporeal, they take half damage from most attacks and ignore nonmagical attacks entirely! And don't get me started on swarms

[@nispelsm]

I balance incorporeal encounters by granting saving throws against things like ability damage and level drain, even if (officially) there is no save. It keeps the encounter scary, but it won't wipe the party because of one good (or bad) roll.

[@geckodruid7084]

Bro trying to balance an encounter is like balancing on a high wire in a hurricane where the dice rolls are the hurricane lmao

[@christopherrowley7506]

Honestly a big part of the problem is the d20 system, especially in low level small groups it tends to make a bigger difference (more likely one round can be absurdly good or horrifically bad for the PCs). Recently I've been considering the 3d6 variant, the so-called Bell Curve Rolls.

[@ArslanAtanazarov]

@@christopherrowley7506 So.... basically... GURPS? :D

[@christopherrowley7506]

@@ArslanAtanazarov I've never tried GURPS but maybe maybe I should finally check it out. What I like about DnD is that the world is already established and many people are familiar with it. Also the rules for GURPS are quite different right? Like there's no leveling, no class system. That makes it pretty much entirely different than DnD. So far the only system I've tried outside of DnD is Fate, which is really rules light and painless to learn.

[@ArslanAtanazarov]

@@christopherrowley7506 yeah, the GURPS can be quite frustrating at first, but it is really flexible and we like it. Also you can find some books with ready-to-play settings and worlds (we played in TES once). And we really like magic system there (it is similar to video games system with mana) and the 3d6 you pointed in your comment. So I'd say it is really worth it to try.

[@UlithiumDragon]

I swear CR was assigned randomly and the only thing it actually means is how much XP you get... which isn't even proportional to the challenge to defeat them.

[@shawnestly2786]

Oh, the pain I feel as a DM watching this. It's so funny it hurts. And then my players ask, 'Why are all the encounters so easy?'

[@sirnoodlearcher9777]

Literally had that first example in a game I ran yesterday. Turn one, one of my players, playing a fighter with a bow rolled a nat 20 for her attack roll and insta-dropped the second goblin whilst the ranger also rolled high and killed the first goblin. The third goblin then proceeded to flee, but the bard used hideous laughter to knock him prone while the fighter finished off him as well. Not a single one of the goblins got an attack off.

[@robosamurai6085]

0:15 "nothing will go wrong " Top 10 in the most cursed words

[@NikGushue]

I follow the Brennen Lee Mulligan approach: "For an encounter to even be worth writing home about it needs to be Deadly."

[@killerklavvenn]

I agree, but how deadly? There is deadly and then there is unavoidable TPK. And the CR like the video shows is difficult to determine.

[@wwade7226]

@@killerklavvenn I agree. I make all of my encounters Deadly. Since CR doesn't account for teamwork, magic items, etc., most times the PCs survive. Maybe occasionally one or two get knocked out. I think the more important thing is how many hit points the creature has and how many attacks, so I usually find a creature that can take several blows from the PCs I am Dm'ing, but who can also attack at least twice or three times.

[@benjaminolson7206]

Yep. You can have other encounters to make characters burn resources, let them feel really awesome about their awesome abilities steamrolling or trivializing something, or because it makes story sense for a location. But deadly encounters are the point of the combat pillar.

[@MultiSuperMarion]

My first session DMing and EVER playing, the level 1 party with 4 PCs almost got completely fucked over by two CR1/4 Giant Wolf Spiders (an "easy" encounter) just because the spiders got an ambush off and downed the Rogue and the Fighter almost immediately and I haven't trusted CR ever since

[@TheBabylane2]

Level 1 is really too squishy for any encounter to be an "easy" one. I usually start my players at level 2 because its damn near impossible to balance for level 1. A couple bad rolls for the players can turn an easy encounter into a TPK.

[@MultiSuperMarion]

@@TheBabylane2 I realized that lmao. Like I said, it was my first time ever playing D&D, and my players were also completely new, so I figured that level 1 was a good starting point. I learned my lesson.

[@THEPELADOMASTER]

Honestly, levels 1 and 2 are really boring.

[@lancejobs]

Lol a horde of shock lizard appears, on one half wait they what oh God....

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

My face when half the party, while underleveled, stomps Tiamat back into the abyss in two rounds and the rest just sits back and applauds... Yeah, CR is a lie

[@dragonwithamonocle]

DnD really allows people to be creative while giving the DM the ability to indulge in that creativity. Which leads to parties doing things in extremely unpredictable ways, usually using strategy or clever positioning to swing the encounter wildly into their favor. You just can't balance CR for ANY party size, because a lone rogue with time to plan and connections to with say, the guild or the town guard, can take down just about anything. A fighter who knows how to be commanding can get into the good graces of a military force large enough to repel a tarrasque ON HIS OWN. Nothing makes sense and the points just don't matter. Nobles are more dangerous than tarrasques.

[@jerseydragon8233]

Honestly when he said CR 1 I thought a Vargouille was going to pop up and smooch someone

[@marvinletni7146]

I love that he's using Xanathar's Guide, a book that has no monsters in it lol.

[@GameInDorf]

That's not Xanathar's Guide, it's the Monster Manual (LE).

[@relativelyjilly]

Challenge ratings are more of a guideline than anything. When I'm trying to make a challenging encounter, I balance it to what would be considered deadly, but I usually take into account the offensive challenge rating to make sure I don't end up killing the party, and defensive CR as a reference to make sure that they can actually feel cool while fighting. Its a lot easier to make a challenging encounter with a larger party, since if someone gets knocked out, it establishes that its a hard encounter, but also someone else can save them.

[@TheBayzent]

They are a sh*t guideline. Also, when you add traps and ambushes on the encounter the CR ought to increase so it is bogus anyway.

[@relativelyjilly]

@@TheBayzent a monster's CR is generally used to indicate how challenging a monster would be in a standard playing field, with a standard sized party. However, the CR does actually increase for traps and stuff since its higher for monsters in their lair for example.The base CR is obviously not going to account for how you use the monster tactically, so if you're doing an ambush that's your job as the Dungeon Master to balance it correctly and account for the increased challenge. The Dungeon Master's guide pg 274 to 280 tell you how its calculated, and tell you how specific abilities like legendary resistance or the aggressive trait increase your creature's CR.