Chapter 2: Two pastors react to Tim Alberta's book "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory"

[@user-lq3dj3eo8k]

I almost did not click on this because I was sure this was going to be pro Trump and anti woke. During the beginning of the Trump administration I stopped going to church because I was hearing more about Trump than about Jesus. I can make up my own mind about politics I go to church to worship God. Thank you for a candid discussion. I had not heard of this book, I will check it out. I think it must be very difficult to lead a church. Thank you for a rational conversation.

[@hanssvineklev648]

@user-lq3dj3eo8k. Where on EARTH did you go to church? I have gone to plenty of conservative Evangelical churches in the past 7 or 8 years, never hearing the name of Trump from the pulpit and seldom hearing in in conversations. I’m sure there must be churches like that. I’m just wondering how you managed to find them.

[@user-lq3dj3eo8k]

middle of Florida@@hanssvineklev648 I visited at least 5 different churches, then decided to stay home

[@andrewzook8648]

@@hanssvineklev648 Yes it is true that you can be a part of a conservative evangelical church and never or hardly hear the words "Trump" or "GOP" or Republican... I'm at a church just like this now where 'politics' are explicitly avoided - BUT - the ideology, the talking points, the 'beliefs', the assumptions, the prejudices of Trumpism, of white GOPism have been expressed, implied, alluded to often and always positively... So sure, the 'letter' may be adhered to (not talking 'politics'), but the spirit of trumpism, of christian nationalism is actually very rampant and dominant.

[@hanssvineklev648]

⁠@@andrewzook8648. Hey, cool name! I have an aunt who was a Zook. Mennonite background, I believe. I don’t guess it’s too common a name. It all depends on what you mean by Trumpism. During the run up to the 2016 election, I didn’t know of a single Evangelical who voted for “Orange Man Bad” in the primaries. They may well have voted for him in the general as the lesser of two evils. My impression was that Trump’s main constituents were people who were “spiritual but not religious” or who were on the peripheries of Evangelicalism: off-the-wall fundamentalists or some of the crazier Charismatic sects. They were people who, in one way or another, were more political than Christian. Straight-up Trumpists, are more redneck and/or blue collar than Evangelical. Evangelicals vote for the man out of a paucity of options, not because they like him. (It’s not like Biden is, in any way, shape, or form, a moral man. Heck, he’s been accused of rape, child molestation, and various forms of fraud and graft. Democrats were all over Evangelicals’ backs about voting for Reagan…a DIVORCED man who never darkened a church door.) Other than Mike Pence (who is no longer a backer) and the current Speaker of the House, most Trump politicians and pundits are Jewish or Catholic or nothing much. They’re not Evangelicals. I myself am not in the Trump camp. I’ve never voted for him. And would just as soon he winds up in jail. On the other hand, I don’t happen to believe many of those labeled as “Christian Nationalists” are any threat whatever to the country. Yes, the likes of Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Herschel Walker should be opposed. But not Evangelicals who are simply patriotic, who are protective of their freedoms of speech and religion, and who vote for Trump because there’s no one else to vote for….

[@battlejitney2197]

@@andrewzook8648 Nail on the head. I go to a church EXACTLY like this: socially & politically very conservative, insular, and white. Trump has to my knowledge not been mentioned from the pulpit but Trump, everything GOP, and Fox talking points are very often discussed in the foyer, small group, etc.

[@JulieRacine-s1p]

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too.” The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?” The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”

[@SamInBC3082]

I am so encouraged by these conversations- that there IS a remnant left.

[@widsomseries]

The most disturbing thing of all this Christian nationalism is how many people it is driving away from Christ. This makes me sad and mad.

[@AdamJohnSwenson]

Excellent. We need more of this!

[@merrylstreak7118]

Thank you so much for this. I have a new understanding of the gospel that I was not able to express before. The disconnect.

[@trinidad2450]

I used to work at World Relief, which is the development and assistance arm of the National Association of Evangelicals. Well, one year the Board of Directors visited our Chicago office. By the way, World Relief was formed during WWII to help the war refugees, I don’t know if they actively sought to help the Jewish refugees. Our office had been resettling refugees since 1985, and helping immigrants since 1987, which is when I started working there. So, on this particular day, as the employee with the most seniority, our office director asked me to say a few words. As I stood before them, all I saw was a sea of white men, only one African-American, not a single Latino, for sure not a single woman. They looked positively bored and uninterested in what I was saying. I ending my little impromptu talk with this, “You know, since when did we begin to call this land our land, I thought it was God’s land.” You could hear a pin drop. Not one of them came over to me to say anything either good or bad, or ‘how dare you!’ No one except the Vice President of US Ministries, he congratulated me, I expected him to say something, but I was dumbfounded as to why no one else said anything. Now, I know. It took the man trump to give them permission to be true to their idol: Donald Trump. My heart breaks for all those who are still caught up in his cult of personality, and it repulses me when I hear so-called pastors acquiesce to following that evil man, Trump.

[@jodyjm13]

Continuing on my slow journey of reading a chapter of the book and watching your commentary... The paragraph that struck me the most was when Torres was describing his early mentoring at Goodwill, during which he (Democrat though turned Republican later), Pastor Stew (Democrat), and associate pastor Dick Alberta (the author's father, Republican), would discuss all manner of topics, from theological to political. Quoting the book: "Disagreement was common -- and enjoyable. Each of them had come from unique backgrounds; each of them had unique views of the Church and the country and the world. Uniformity of belief was necessary in but one sense: Jesus Christ had died for their sins and was resurrected for their justification before God." I harbor no illusions that such diverse discussions were universal or universally enjoyed, but they've gone from fairly common to nearly extinct, and I fear our lives are much the poorer for the lack. One other brief line that stung was when Torres's friend, Martin Sanders, mentioned a phone call he'd recently had with a pastor in Cleveland. One of that pastor's long-time members had told him he could no longer stay with that church, because the pastor was not "interpreting the Bible in light of the Constitution." My jaw literally dropped as I read that; it's perfectly in line with the oft-repeated story (from Russell Moore) about a pastor being chastised for preaching from the Sermon on the Mount, with the congregant claiming that while that "woke stuff" worked in Jesus' day it was too weak for modern times. The degree to which some Evangelicals have abandoned Jesus' teachings for secular politics and philosophy is breathtaking, and I wonder what it would take to pierce their hardened hearts. I think Dave is spot-on when discussing the harm that the "truncated gospel" has wrought: if all one needs to do is believe in Jesus, but not let that belief inform their other beliefs or their actions, then it's all too easy to continue living the same self-centered, worldly life while buttressed by the belief that one is saved and safe, which leads to acceptance of all manner of worldly behavior.

[@toddchristiegulley2062]

I often counsel parents that in their choosing which battles to fight in raising their children they may win their bodies but lose their heart. I think Bob Goff may have coined that phrase. In the same way, Christian Nationalists may win bodies into church buildings but lose (if we haven't already lost) the heart of those we are called to love and serve and pray for.

[@BettyMensch]

Our Joy is The House of the Lord.. we won't be quiet. We'll sing out his Praise.

[@rutherglenroad8109]

No-one should call themselves a Christian until they have read and understood the sermon on the mount. Christian Nationalists turn their back on the very words of our Saviour. Despite what they think, they are strangers to Him. I weep and pray for their salvation.

[@MerrielBloomfield]

When Trump ran for president in 2015-16, the first time I heard him speak, I said he was a very dangerous man. My pastor at the time basically told us we should vote for Donald Trump. So I got up and walked out. I eventually came back because I felt I was too old to change churches. And where would I go to church anyway. I go and worship God and the pastor that took over after that pastor retired, doesn't mention politics from the pulpit. But he preaches the gospel.

[@melindabell0324]

Maybe if pastors started teaching about the Good News, we could salvage the church. We’re taught that the Good News is the crucifixion & resurrection. No. The Good News is what he taught us about how to live, to find the Kingdom of Heaven here. His death was the price he paid to bring it. His resurrection is our hope. The Good News is his teachings. Just believing that he died and resurrected ain’t gonna get you there. Living it will.

[@TeresaFavors]

Amen! Sister Bell

[@weegiepetrie9434]

Years ago, I read a book called dinosaur brains. It was written by a corporate psychologist to explain behavior in large corporations. As long as every group is happy and getting along and making money, they continue to think from mainly their cerebral cortex. But get threatened and they go straight down to the brainstem to the reptile area. And then it’s very group oriented, “like me good not like me bad, and must kill them!!” I think right now we’re seeing a lot of lizard brain thinking not just in the churches, but in the country in general. Too much of this, I believe my group is threatening therefore I must lash out.

[@crisbajcrisbaj468]

my friends, that woman's comment about 'pastors' is because the modern 2024 protestant pastor is a MANAGER AND DISPENSOR OF RELIGIOUS ACTIVITIES AND GOODS... not the 'heart-coach' Pat K is speaking out of... Barna's continued research shows over 80% of church-going Americans believe the 'church' exists to generate an environment of people to have their needs met...

[@witwisniewski2280]

Humility appears to be a cornerstone of the problem. Jesus washed sinners' feet?!! Without humility, self reflection is distorted and stifled, and thus spiritual, moral, and intellectual growth stalls. That's the main reason why politics, including church politics does not seem to get better from anyone's point of view. The US lacks collective wisdom because here humility is seen as a negative value, bringing about scorn and disdain. Americans worship idols, in Hollywood and positions of power because they project the antithesis of humility. We worship narcissists! I worry about the US because its citizens don't have each other's backs. The COVID masks revealed the tragic truth that Americans felt humiliated wearing a simple mask because it was needed to save the lives of *other* Americans around them. Looking out for number one is self destructive to one's soul, and it carries over to the soul of our nation.

[@fredsimmons2793]

ISAIAH 21:11,12-The burden of Dumah,Watchman,what of the night? Watchman what of the night? The Watchman said, The morning cometh,and also the night; if ye will enquire,enquire ye: return come.Tim Alberta is a Watchman on the walls,as are you two Pastors.

[@stevepetersen7697]

Think of how often the Church has been co-opted by the power hungry: the Catholic Church by Franco in Spain, the Lutheran Church by Hitler in Germany for instance.

[@susanstein6604]

You obviously haven’t read Isaiah or Isaiah’s idea of the Messaiah.

[@AnneofAvonlea]

Why do you say that ?

[@bethprather9241]

😮😂 Thank God that I'm not the only one who has heard , " The Marxist, " stuff too much..!!?? Everytime I've heard a preacher or christian on FB, or a book I was told to order, oh & there is an entire sermon from 2nd Baptist in Houston on it, that is so stupid it is just 😂😂😂laughable.." Idk what else you can do with it.. .... ## Sharing my favorite part of the 2nd Baptist of Houston's message. He has an entire cool writing boards too, with time lines. Starts with Marxist? Again.... But he preaches to the congregation like they are at an old time tent revival, almost.. He gets to the 60's and states," Woodstock in 69,the evils of the hippies...😂😂, to tell the church or all that those 69 Woodstock hippies, (who did all these drugs, he names?? ARE THE ONES TEACHING ALL OUR KIDS NoW IN ALL THE COLLEGES and UNiversities in the US.. ( oh they are bad too!!😮😮😮!!" 😂😂😂😂😂The Woodstock hippies are in their late 70's and 80's now?? Unreal. .

[@susanstein6604]

Again the Pharisees were not performative or going through the motions. They were deeply religious men and mystics. Neither of you understand who the Pharisees were.

[@paulacoyle5685]

OK, this has been a great discussion but when you talk about a truncated gospel, what you are talking about is the gospel plus sanctification. Or the the gospel plus the fruit of believing the gospel and being forgiven. You kind of almost seemed to imply that we go to heaven because of our good works that are done after we make the “decision.” And if you call that all the gospel, then you are mixing law and gospel, and that does also create Pharisees in the self-righteous and despair in those who understand their sin. Because we always want to grade ourselves on our performance and that is not how God grades us when we are in Christ. He sees Christ. We have to know that we are forgiven before we can even begin to have hope to be sanctified … to get up every day and try again, knowing we are all just giving our measly (or last) two mites.😢

[@ClassyPlatypus]

If I'm understanding him correctly, I don't think Dave is talking about *how* people are saved but he's trying to point out that the gospel (good news) is attractive to people for reasons that go beyond simply going to heaven after we die. That by following Jesus (living a sanctified life) we can also experience the joys of the kingdom of God in many of the aspects of our daily, earthly life. That's what he seems to be excited about and why he would call the whole package (salvation+sanctification) the good news