Infinite Should Get the Super Broly Treatment | Characters In-Depth

A suggestion I have to reinvent the so-so villain of Sonic Forces.
Follow me on Twitter: / antiztheman

[@RubyofBlue]

"Retcon every game that came out this decade" Why do you keep saying things I agree with so much.

[@charactersin-depth3472]

Blame the games

[@charactersin-depth3472]

@@crashingbasher7376 How so? The 2010's games caused the confusion in the first place.

[@charactersin-depth3472]

@@crashingbasher7376 I'm convinced the target audience don't care about story in Sonic games. You know the saying: "IT'S ALL ABOUT GAMEPLAY!". As long as it's entertaining, they'll let it slide. They have fun gameplay and we have an engaging narrative (fun gameplay too :)). Everybody wins.

[@knuxuki1013]

@@charactersin-depth3472 Hardcore fans will know, forget the casuals, I doubt they'd even care.

[@megapokesonicx]

At least the 2010s are over

[@jarkspore]

I don’t think he needs to be retconned, we’re just lacking information about his backstory. The kind of harsh life that leads to being called weak being all that’s needed to make one snap. The prequel comics tried to flesh him out, but it still left too much up to the viewer.

[@Eric4bz]

>Infinite was a mercenary who felt he was going through the motions - doing nothing worthwhile with his life >Phantom ruby shows a destroyed wasteland, an environment Infinite would enjoy thriving in and creating >He joins with the Egghead and gets destroyed by Shadow one on one and refuses to let himself be called weak >He agrees to an experiment with Eggman to become one with the Phantom Ruby, queue the main game. Literally, that's the entire backstory we're given. It'd be nice to know why he felt he was going through the motions, but his motivation to become Infinite was quite literally: "I got beat by Shadow, wah wah wah!" It's not a good explanation and NEEDS a retcon. I've seen many fan writers who've made better plots than what we got in the entirety of Forces.

[@dvv6026]

this is how i would make Infinite story with the "weak" plot idea on his birth, he killed his mother, his father and the rest of his tribe, (not Jackal squad) he was called Zero bc he was nothing, they hated him, blamed him, and bullied him for doing so, he was the Omega of the tribe (why he also doesn't like Omega much). In his head so far, he was gulty for his mom death, consider himself weak, thought it's natural for the weak to be punish (bc he got that treatment), and so a huge part of him wanted to gain power to show them they were wrong ("I won't stop until they know my name"). so he got trauma so far then he leaved the tribe, and make his own, he created the Jackal squad. and so, for the 1st time, he felt love and friendship, Zero is a Jackal, a canine so of course he is social, he doesn't want to be alone. Until Robotnik came around, when he exprerienced the Ruby's effect (this is te comic) his power thirsty took control of him, he joined Robotnik at the cost of loosing the trust of his squad for surrender, he exchange this for a Ruby, the squad is now shattered. Then the Shadow part. First of course change Shadow's behavior in a "i don't want to hurt you so leave, or stay and die, this is a ar after all", he killed the Squad (almost), angered by this act, Zero pursue Shadow and was beaten by him, Shadow instead of calling him worthless, he will be like "Sory but this is a war, not a playground for kids" and he vanishes. 1st Zero would blame himself for he death of his squad death (like his mother) and will call himself weak for doing so, it's only a second after that he says "no, that's not true, i am not weak. I AM NOT WEAK" at the same time having fast flashbacc of his first tribe calling him weak, then in a final roar, while crying, Zero dies... Being fuse with the Ruby by Robotnik, Zero will be reborn, but this time the Ruby is messing around with his memory. for now, Zero is the part that like friends, is social, the trust worthy, and on the other side we have Infinite the part who is power thirsty. The Ruby will erase the Zero part, to let Infinite alone with the ruby, and this what he will became on Forces, and only the Avatar (who will be a member of his squad who survied) will save Zero and destroy Infinte (instead of the Ruby prototype protecting the avatar, it will be the lil rest of Zero who will protect him) Here we go that's it for me

[@ataberkdedemen9802]

@@dvv6026 Nice story idea.

[@dvv6026]

@@ataberkdedemen9802 thx

[@artistanthony1007]

Infinite's song says "The pain persists, I cant resist. But that's what it takes to be Infinite." so he was supposed to embrace pain, being a sadomasochist is how I saw him but instead, we got a sensitive character.

[@Mariodash23]

I always thought Infinite would work better if he was a tragic example of Eggman’s cruel experimentation of the innocent lives. Having Infinite be a soft spoken, kind hearted, and very reserved person that would be horrifically experimented on by Eggman to make a powerful super weapon like his grandfather would make Infinite far more tragic. I’ve spent countless hours rewriting Forces to try and showcase Infinite as an example of Eggman’s cruelty, a parallel to Shadow and what he would’ve become, and even moments of Infinite messing with the heads of everyone in the Resistance. Hell, even a boss fight against Sonic who’s being controlled like a puppet by Infinite! If there’s anything nice I can say about Forces, it’s that the character creation system was a good idea, and it gave me the inspiration to do what Sega and Sonic Team are either too scared or too lazy to do; have actual drama and character.

[@Mariodash23]

@@EggWhisper I know about those. And I really don't understand why they implemented those mandates when Sega could've just told Penders to fuck off with his accusations since they would've owned everything related to Sonic since they are the original IP holders.

[@TechBlade9000]

@@Mariodash23 Because he would come back with another lawsuit to waste their time

[@goldenboybenny7511]

I’m not convinced those mandates are real.

[@Mariodash23]

Golden Boy Benny Same. They just sound like an excuse to justify poor writing in the comics, especially with Shadow.

[@TechBlade9000]

@@Mariodash23 No every company in existence had mandates

[@sonicfan2403]

The lyrics in his theme gave off the feeling that he had a horrible life growing up and develops a huge hatred towards the world. I know people.would call that edgy, but I think it could've worked if the staff just made a complete outline of his character and background. Some people think that he should've been a creation of Eggman, but personally I think that wouldn't work with me because it comes off as lazy writing to me, I think they should've delved into his past life as a mercenary along with the other jackals, maybe acknowledge a hatred for an abusive parent/caretaker, but took the words from that caretaker's mouth which made him have a sense of Darwinism, and don't kill him off and have him appear in some (not all) future games to give him some more screen time to try and flesh him out a bit more!

[@littenfire3563]

what people call "edgy" nowadays is actually depth. there are people irl who are like that and that's why they get pushed to the brink of snapping and is why bullying is such a serious issue. keep picking on someone and they eventually snap

[@guardianof2fort964]

On the topic of infinite in later games, I think something near would be coming across a jackal in a bar somewhere who, if you strike up conversation, mentions that he used to be a mercenary before one of his friends got involved with the wrong people and paid for it, so he decided to cut his loses and take a more steady job. Then a little later on Sonic (or whoever) realizes that the friend he talking about was infinite.

[@demi-femme4821]

@Immanuel Ntim-Addae I came up with a backstory where Infinite's father was the Jango Fett of the Sonic world, and pre-Eggman Infinite is Clone Wars Boba trying to live up to his father's legacy.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

I like the idea that Infinite is what Shadow could've been if Amy hadn't convinced him to help in SA2.

[@ShadowDante7]

Infinite has the best villain theme song to ever exist in my opinion. Mainly because I feel like his theme song is pretty much something any villain in existence could relate to.

[@sunnight1005]

I really want sega to pull a retcon, HE DESERVES IT

[@lexiw.145]

@Reggielacey 223 says you

[@daraghmolloy3638]

Imagine mephiles replaced infinite

[@donathan2933]

knowing Sega they won't do that

[@SuperDesmond12]

I wish sally acorn and the rest of the SATAM is cannon in the games as well as making infinite to be more of a powerful villain

[@donathan2933]

@@SuperDesmond12 they should retcon Sonic Forces and remake older Sonic games like 06, Adventure 1 and 2, Unleashed

[@Aeoncalcos91]

Thankfully, Infinite's only had one game appearance so far, so fixing his character shouldn't be too difficult (or so I would hope.). I'd really like to see him come back again too... but he DEFINITELY needs an overhaul. If they're going to expand on him, then give us more context about his background. Conversely, should they reset his character, if they want to keep anything from his debut, his partnership with Dr Robotnik and Metal Sonic should be it. (I'd gladly take Infinite and Metal Sonic working with Robotnik over Orbot and Cubot or especially the "DEAD" Six ANY day of the week.) Also, with regards to the idea of a series retcon of everything the last decade... YES PLEASE! (and if for any reason at all, they even THINK of using the Wisps again, then they should simply make them all function as Chao Garden power-ups "just like with the animals or chaos drives" and NOTHING ELSE! It's the only thing they're good for.)

[@omarornelas-shams1830]

Actually infinite made a Camino in transformers rise of the dark spark

[@soniceinstein7762]

Ooh maybe clarify shadow killed all of his friends and now he wants revenge on anything that reminds him of shadow but he could also hate Eggman for betraying him because he hates it when people betray others I need to write this down for my channel.

[@soniceinstein7762]

@Arache Bailey what if it was on accident and they killed them selves by accident trying to fight shadow but Zero(infinites real name) thinks shadow killed them so now he want revenge against anything that reminds him of shadow. Happy Easter😁.

[@precieux6303]

😂With Pontiac and Graff still writing the games. There's no hope whatsoever for Infinite lol

[@soniceinstein7762]

@@precieux6303 honestly anybody who's talked about Infinite can make a better story for Infinite.

[@purple5823]

I sort of rebooted Infinite myself, this is how it ended up Infinite was once a child who lived a miserable life and soon turned into an orphan, living a lonely and painful life as everyone took a chance to harm him, either physically or emotionly. He was soon addopted and raised by someone, (haven't thought of who yet) but once older, lost them too and went to live on his own. He made multiple friends, but lost many of them in disasters, mainly the ones in which Sonic was related to. Infinite soon turned more and more protective over friends, and trusted them, although he made a very bad choice of becoming a thief alongside with his friends, known as the Jackal Squad For a long time, Infinite only wanted to protect his friends and be as strong as possible to be able to do this, and with his friends on his side that do not let him down and are always there to help him, he was stronger than ever. When the Jackal Squad raided Eggman's base, the Phantom Ruby called out for him, and when he tried to take it from Eggman, it showed him a "better" world, one he was dreamming about for so long and was the best for him and his friends. Eggman, holding the Phantom Ruby too, saw what he wanted, and tricked him, saying that was what he was wanting to build all along, if it wasn't for a certain "legendary blue hedgehog",. Eggman told him the world needed to be rebuilt, and that Infinite and him had a desire in common, and invited him to his army. Despite his whole squad telling him to resist, and not let anyone, specially Eggman, being above him... Infinite gladly accepted. Some time later, Shadow broke into the base and whiped out his whole team, even if he didn't want to. Infinite was infuriated by this and attacked Shadow, to avenge his team. Shadow had no option but to fight back, and defeated him. Shadow told Infinite he shouldn't have even tried to do this or join Eggman to begin with, and should have given up on the base once he noticed he wasn't going to be able to defeat Shadow, the Ultimate Lifeform, as he would only harm himself more. Shadow then left and exploded the base, leaving Infinite to mourn the loss of his friends, walking amongst what was left of the facility, crying, with deep hatred growing more and more... Thinking of what Shadow told him... No more friends, no more strength... Why? Because you were too weak... You failed them, you couldn't save them... You've been beaten so easily, couldn't even avenge them... It's your fault. Weak, disappointing, distasteful, a disgrace... "No... I'm not... I AM NOT WEAK! AAAAAAAAAAAARGH!" Eggman saw this as an opportunity, he gave him something he could not refuse... *Infinite power*. Infinite did not refuse. He went through the painful process that was fusing with the Phantom Ruby. Infinite now knew the truth, he could MAKE the truth, and make lies as well, only those who weren't ignorant and weak could distinguish the real from the fake... He now also knew friends were worthless, only there temporarily to disappoint you, die, leave you in the eternal abyss... And too many of these losses, were Sonic The Hedgehog's fault... Or atleast, that was what the Phantom Ruby wanted him to believe. The Phantom Ruby would make sure to remind him would let him forget his past. Whenever he was quiet, meditating, illusions of his past would torture him... Infinite was now a monster who would destroy anything in his path. He had infinite power... *NOT EVEN SONIC COULD STAND AGAINST HIM NOW!*

[@braulio5450]

Heack yeah I'd also think I'd be interesting have someone that wants to change infinite or something like what happened with shadow and mephiles but instead of shadow this time I'd be silver, silver and infinite

[@NintenGril101]

Dude, this and the comment right above mine are like so cool, I'm having trouble putting into words how much I would've rathered it over what we actually got lol I'm currently also trying to reboot Infinite for a comic of mine, except it's not nearly as interesting as you guys' and at the very end Infinite's hardly even recognizable as Infinite anymore I'm only going to say a few things because I haven't figured them out yet but I'd like an opinion on what I have figured out I'm going to have Infinite at the start of my "Sonic Forces" behave generally how he did in everything but his flashback in Episode Shadow, fueled by revenge and anger and a belief that society should be flipped where the hard working weak come out on top while the "lazy, spoiled upperclassmen" and those who were sort of born into power got put on the bottom - I don't plan on saying a lot of his backstory though, except that he was on the weaker side when he was younger and generally raised himself, but he had to basically work for his position of power and doesn't like Shadow because ~ Number one: "Shadow killed his squad :V" Number two: Shadow was born that powerful, with all of his chaos magic and stuff, while Infinite was born with nothing and had to earn his strength By the end of the sequel comic to Sonic Forces, he'll be more on the quiet and subdued side as he realizes his hatred for Shadow was unfair and slowly realizes that his actions were despicable and wrong and holds secret embarrassment for being wrong By the 'between comics' and the sequel to that sequel he'd have basically become more on the generally awkward side and tries to cover up his awkwardness and broken pride with humor due to his increasing anxiety to what people think of him and is trying to learn how to be a good person, but by no means becomes a comic relief. He's still going to keep his classic Infinite pride and "ruggedness" combined with a sense of protectiveness for some people

[@bowmaj8666]

When Infinite vanishes at the end, how cool would it have been if it was Eggman who used some kind of device that sucked the Phantom Ruby (with Infinite along with it) into his final boss machine to power it? Then when the that strange creature bursts out of it like a chest burster from the Alien Films (man I love that moment in Forces) it's actually Infinite himself, who has used the Phantom Ruby to merge himself with Eggman's technology, turning him into some kind of abomination of living matter, machine and magic, fueled by madness along with utter hatred and contempt for the world, instead of just a slight recolour of the Nega-Wisp Boss from Sonic Colours. They could even have it that, instead of destroying him, Sonic and the Rookie use the Ruby to turn Infinite back to normal. Infinite is confused as to why they helped him, and the Rookie offers their hand in friendship, wanting to help him be a better person and help rebuild the world. Infinite however shuns this offer and leaves, vowing vengeance to destroy them all. The Rookie feels sad, but Sonic comforts him/her by explaining that sometimes you can do everything in your power to change people, but if people truly want to be better they need to make that decision for themselves, leaving it open for Infinite to return in a future game, and his fate uncertain. Will he come back and help our heroes, or will he remain hateful and stay a villain? I've always had a fondness for antagonists who change their ways, but I feel like we've seen a lot of that in the Sonic series, with Knuckles, Chaos, Shadow, Blaze, Silver; I even enjoyed the little friendship Shadow develops with Metal Sonic in Rivals 2. So while we could still have Infinite in a future game maybe helping the heroes at the end fight off a final boss or something, I feel like he should still remain an enemy to Sonic and his friends instead of just ultimately turning good. It'll be cool to have a reoccurring animal character who isn't one of the Good Guys; it makes things a little less black and white. Man, there was, and still is so much potential for this character. It's just too bad we're likely never going to see him again, considering whiney Sonic fan boy's irritating habit of moaning "NO, I DON'T LIKE IT, IT'S STINKY AND YUCKY AND BAD! GET RID OF IT, WAAAH" once again leaving Sega with absolutely no idea what direction to take the series, leaving it another muddled mess!

[@TStew2C00L]

This sounds amazing!

[@mitchellhancock7920]

SEGA has said they have plans with Infinite, so who among us knows at this point other than the man upstairs and the developers?

[@skizzlers2756]

I love Infinite. He reeks of insecurity, and I wish Sega would build off of that and let him overcome it.

[@Superluigi881]

We know he hates the feeling of powerlessness. I imagine being beaten even with the phantom ruby and then cast aside would have done some serious damage to his mental state. I imagine him coming back and being completely off his rocker in a way that makes him either pitiful or even more dangerous.

[@khaleelmorris]

​@@Superluigi881that actually sounds really good.

[@extremmefan7305]

"retcon everything from the modern era" is a take I can mostly get behind. Only ones I'd really leave back in are Unleashed, Colors, and Generations, with the latter two still getting rewritten in remakes. Wisps showing up in Colors was a given and sorta made sense for Generations, but that should've been it for them afterwards (but no instead we get Forces with the biggest ludonarrative dissonance I've ever seen there after Ivy's outfits in SoulCalibur). 06 already retconned itself out of existence, and the storybook games are already considered noncanon, so we don't exactly lose much in this process. Edit: well, ok, maybe the storybook games AREN'T noncanon, since Sonic outright mentions the events of Secret Rings in Generations, but they're otherwise mainly selfcontained. Also maybe the Wisps in Forces could've been reinforcements that Tails called for using the Wisp language he studied when working on the translator in Colors.

[@bin8350]

A nice idea and a theory I've had for a while now is that Infinite's "i am not weak line" and the lyric in his theme "his pain persists, i cant resist" is him hating himself for the complete destruction of Jackal squad a group wich could've been all he had and that he says hes not weak out of anger this pain persists out of sadness and i cant resist out of a lust for revenge and power. If they rewrite him as a more sympathetic villain like chaos who just wants justice then he could be one of the best.

[@melvinlovesyou_]

YES i also thought that he mightve felt inferior for letting down his squad. i see how they only mentioned he was "reborn" because of shadow; and technically he did wipe out the squad, but is the squad dead? we could only assume yes because we dont see them anywhere else, neither does infinite go look for them. they made him egotistical in the game, but they shouldve made him rethink more about losing his squad. that ties pretty well with his "friends are illusions" quotes i believe.

[@humanarian]

A really good point. Infinite was a wasted potential, he could be so much more. However, I must confess that it was nice to see him being one of very few Eggman's allies who didn't betray Eggman. And it's not hard to see why he didn't betray him. First of all, he has him to thanks for all of his power. Second, Eggman could cut him off of the power source for Phantom Ruby at any given moment. Third, he doesn't seem to care for ruling anything. Instead, all he wants is power, to be invinsible against any opponent. Speaking of which... the actual in-game boss battles versus him are so extremely underwhelming. Especially the first one, where Infinite was throwing Sonic around in the cutscene, but in the actual battle... used like 1% of his full power, if not less? That's just weird and doesn't feel right at all. Also, it was a really bad gameplay desicion that you have to get hit by his ruby attacks to actually *get to see* his coolest looking attacks. That's so unfitting, because in no cutscene did he need to hit someone with those red cubes in order to apply his powers.

[@gamejitzu]

I don't think he needs to be completely thrown out and re-introduced. Yeah his story was pretty bad but it's not irredeemable. A future game just needs to elaborate on his past, and make that become his "new" motive in a way. After Forces, Infinite's story can branch in many ways. Though i'd personally keep him a villain

[@XxsoapywolfxX]

I genuinely don't think we'll see Infinite again though. For some strange reason after I had gone back and analyzed the prequel comics, I don't even think Infinite was real. I think he was just another illusion from the Phantom Ruby. I mean, him and the "Jackal Squad" just appear out of thin air as soon as Eggman get's his hands on the Mania Phantom Ruby? Plus the fact that he EASILY pledge allegiance to Eggman once he had seen the possibility of everything going to ruins and the fact that he maintains said loyalty all throughout the game, screams that Infinite wasn't even truly real. If anything it shows how tired Eggman is of having/ capturing all these other-worldly deities (Chaos, Biohazard/ final hazard, Shadow, Iblis/ Solaris, Mother Wisp, Time Eater, Dark Gaia... etc, etc) and inevitably having them betray him. So, he had a endless power source (the Phantom Ruby) that could alter reality, now he needed the villian, but who could be that villian? Who could wield the Phantom Rubies power? That's when the Phantom Ruby reacted to Eggman's thought's and created the jackal squad or more importantly, Infinite. It also gave Eggman what he wanted, someone who is the very opposite of Sonic, someone that would easily betray their friends to get what they want, someone who will easily follow Eggman without the risk of betrayal. To even further prove this point, all throughout Forces, all of the characters list Infinite as being "created" by Eggman. He was created in Eggmans "secret lab". If he was a living, breathing character in the franchise prior to the Phantom Ruby, then why would Infinite be created?

[@piccolofan24]

Wally Graham This is a really interesting theory. :O

[@tomasgomeziglesias6769]

Your final paragraph pretty much describes why I think Infinite was originally a creation of Eggman, who could have created Infinite to be his own version of the Ultimate Lifeform, sucessfully recreating his grandfather's experiment (Project:Shadow) but with his own twists, with the adition of Infinite being empowered by a fully-functional replica of the original Phantom Ruby to make him more powerful than Shadow and Sonic. This would have explained that Infinite remained loyal to Eggman throughout the game, because the doctor was meant to be his creator and also granted him the nigh-perfect Phantom Ruby replica as if it was rightfully his from birthright. I still get the feeling Episode Shadow was only made because of fanservice (done wrong) to Adventure fans and pretty much retconned Infinite's origin.

[@SuperSonicWarrior93]

Speaking of Broly, I kinda wish that “Dragon Ball Super: Broly” was also given a heavy metal rock soundtrack, like in “Dragon Ball Z: Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan”. I think “Dragon Ball Z: Broly - Second Coming” had it too, I might have to double check.

[@charactersin-depth3472]

I think the metal was only for the US version since it was the 90s/2000s, so "we Westerners can't tolerate something if it doesn't have metal or rap". Anyway, Super Broly's OST was sick.

[@GarciaXVLegend_04]

@@charactersin-depth3472 As much as I love the rock music that was in a couple of Anime Movies like Dragon Ball when it was translated as American/Western Products I actually truly appreciate for DB Super BROLY having a much more unique soundtrack, that Gogeta vs. Broly OST is dope as heck! Makes me want to exercise!

[@Nice_Person7379]

I like old broly the best

[@SuperSonicWarrior93]

@@Nice_Person7379 Same.

[@FrostyMac]

I don’t think retconning an entire decades is a good idea. Damaging as they were to the overall story, they’re still a part of the legacy, and their plots could even be used to the advantage of actual good plots moving forward. Hell, that’s half of the reason I wanna see Infinite again.

[@tomasgomeziglesias6769]

You just partially described why I want to see White Space from Sonic Generations again in a future game as it could bring back some elements from Sonic '06, more specifically Crisis City (and maybe even Flame Core) from Silver's original future. Imagine Silver, already holding some Chaos Emeralds, getting sent there for a second time and, while seaching for more till having 7, he'll fight Iblis' minions and will slowly realize that he already has experience fighting them, he could even encounter Iblis twice and would instinticvely attack and aim straight to his eye(s) depending on his form) to kill him every time he appears and comes back to life on his own and, in the cutscenes right before fighting Iblis, Silver, without thinking, would ask for help and to be careful to someone who's not there with him, indicating that, in another time, every time Silver fought Iblis prior and during Sonic '06 he was never alone.

[@DanieleMulas-up7np]

Part of what legacy ? A shitty legacy of trashing on continuity, bastardizing characters and just turning the universe in a clusterfuck. What plots ? Sonic goes to an amusement park to do fuck all, Sonic meets his past mute self and go on a museum trip, Sonic goes to Mario Galaxy to fight the poorman Koopalings ? Who the hell wants to remember this shit ? Who the hell wants the "two worlds" canon to be a thing ? And who the fuck wants to see Infinite again ?

[@DanieleMulas-up7np]

@@tomasgomeziglesias6769 That's a really shitty idea. Pass

[@hwanniggles187]

@@DanieleMulas-up7np i agree with everything except Infinite. He has the potential. He just needs an overhaul to get it to be a good character

[@DanieleMulas-up7np]

@@hwanniggles187 Having potential =/= good character. I too had ideas on how to fix and overhaul him, but the matter of fact is that he would be turned into a completely different character entirely. Whether you want to expand on his backstory, Jackal Squad or his motives. Might as well just be a brand new character, so why bother ?

[@Rasengan9000ttt]

I think the fact he didn't die and still has the ruby sets it self up that he can be reused as a villain with possibly a better motive. Goes from a petty merc that given a nuclear bomb to someone who can conquer the world himself.

[@charactersin-depth3472]

Forces was the game where he should've made it big, not tease us for a sequel.

[@cool7492]

Retconning out every game in the 2010's would actually be quite simple, since each game from Colors onward took place on another planet with no explanation as to how any of the characters got there. Thus it's easy to say, "we're going back to the Earth continuity."

[@bowmaj8666]

Nothing about Sonic Colours suggests that the planet below Eggman's Interstellar Amusement Park is a different planet to previous games. This whole "There are Two Worlds in Sonic games" idea just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and has been made up by confused fans as an explanation to things in the games that they either don't understand, or more accurately just plain don't like. However, it just makes everything more confusing and convoluted than it needs to be.

[@cool7492]

@@bowmaj8666 The Two Worlds concept was first mention by Iizuka prior to Colors' release. However, you're right that there was no in-game evidence of this in Colors. In fact, Forces has been the only game thus far which takes it into account. The concept was likely made in response to people (who aren't Sonic fans) complaining that humans don't belong in the same world as Sonic, which is ridiculous.

[@bowmaj8666]

@@cool7492 I don't think even Forces takes it into account. Nothing about Forces suggests it's a different world from previous games either, apart from maybe the whole "The Classic games and Classic Sonic are now separate" which is just a stupid retcon to appease whiny Classic Fanboy Purists who still can't accept that Sonic has green eyes, a voice and friends now.

[@cool7492]

@@bowmaj8666 A developer video stated that the "alien" writing on the walls of the City stages was meant to imply that it was not a human world the game takes place on. Granted, it doesn't actually state that in-game, but it was the developers' intent.

[@bowmaj8666]

@@cool7492 And nothing in-game suggests that Eggman is from an entirely different planet or dimension! People make this stuff up as an explanation to elements of the series that they either don't understand or just plain don't like; despite the fact that every answer they come up with is to a problem they themselves are creating, or the answers just make everything more confusing and convoluted, and most of the time even contradict stuff that is clearly confirmed in the series itself. That is why this two worlds thing just needs to stop.

[@MaskedChaos]

Ok, Infinite is a good character, with decent motives, but to see that you have to do digging and follow some implications. I think they don’t need to retcon more so restate his story, as in he comes back in a later game and has an actual story. Looking at infinite’s whole story (in the prequel comic) you start off with him as the leader of the Jackal Squad, a mercenary squad Eggman hires to defend his base. One day Eggman discovers the phantom ruby and it shows him what he wants most (Eggman Land). Later, the first time he hands it to Infinite all he sees around him are flames and destruction. Later when Shadow shows up it’s implied he kills all of the Jackal Squad besides Infinite, simply calling him weak ( *REEE* ) and after that is when he becomes Infinite. It’s a good backstory it’s just badly executed in the games, so I feel like Shadow should be the one he has a grudge against, not really Sonic.

[@DanieleMulas-up7np]

Holy shit, what a pathetic comment. How do you even call a pussy with no real backstory or motivation good ? What fucking good motives ? His Jackal Squad, from what little we even see in the garbage comics, were scumbags in search of a quick loot. He decides to join forces with Eggman because he's a nihilistic piece of shit. He turns evil because Shadow kills his useless squad of cardboards OFF SCREEN and calls him ugly and pathetic. He doesn't even avenge his squad or take his anger on Shadow, but on Sonic, who did absolutely SQUAT to him. It's not a good backstory, it's lazy shit. Seriously, who are the 3 apes who upvoted this garbage ?

[@18826]

@@DanieleMulas-up7np yeah sure the squad might not be important to you but it is to him they were his family, they were bandits because the world sucks infinite wanted to change that. But no a edgelord asshole had to come there and kill them just because they were in his way, infinite tried to avenge them but got destroyed for not having powers like shadow. Then just gets betrayed by eggman and used, to end up killed offscreen. He is after sonic to capture him to eggman, he destroys omega offscreen and then traps shadow in his ilusions, only after that he takes over the world. The written sucked they could've done much more not only they ruined him but the whole game as well like they give up on creating the game.

[@Nice_Person7379]

1:56 I’m not sure about that. Not only did kakarrot cry but the doctors mocked him, he and his dad were ‘killed’ by king Vegeta and he used his energy to save him and his dad from planet Vegeta’s destruction. And he was raised to be a ruthless tyrant by a lame excuse of a father.

[@jjsponge1202]

I’ve always imagined Infinite to be one of those monsters who would turn against Eggman and become the final boss himself. Sure, it’s been done a few times before, but Infinite looked like the perfect villain who could’ve successfully pulled this off had he not been written out of the game too soon.

[@hihi-nm3uy]

"Retcon every game that came out this decade" I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR AGES NOW!

[@callumcrane241]

Demi god. War lord. I still see him getting curve stomped by Shadow. And as an entaganest to him. That would be a grate upgrade for him.

[@ItsCosmoTewulf]

I agree with you, even though you misspelled a couple of your words there.

[@callumcrane241]

@@ItsCosmoTewulf DANG IT!

[@jamiegioca9448]

And it wouldn't feel forced whatsoever, since Shadow is a confirmed and legit powerhouse

[@callumcrane241]

@@jamiegioca9448 Yea.

[@geekforeverpixelgamingsurl5007]

I agree with most of what you said. "Retcon every game of this decade" is NOT part of that. I do not agree on that.

[@jamiegioca9448]

They really shouldn't retcon any game before Generations (except Free Riders)

[@SolidBedunga]

I feel like people over sell the whole "goku crying as a baby made him evil" thing. I never saw it as that when I watched the first Broly movie. We're given context of him having an attempt made on his life as a baby, and his father controlling him with magic; that combined with the fact that his legendary form seems to come at the cost of his sanity. I always saw Z Broly's hatred of goku as something that showed how truly derranged he was, the fact he was clinging onto something so insignificant, that he was prepared to destroy everything he saw over a slight someone commited as a baby... But yet again, I do enjoy reading into shit too much

[@Everik-ct6pg]

I originally thought Infinite was supposed to be a Darth maul type of character that's completely driven by vengeance and anger. It's like they wanted to do that but pussied out in the end. Infinite doesn't even want to fight Shadow, he just does evil things because whatever.

[@DanieleMulas-up7np]

If anything, Infinite is the Sonic equivalent of Kylo Ren : cool design that vaguely resembles a better past villain (Darth Vader and Mephiles The Dark), shitty raging manchild with no clear motive who's constantly undermined by the pathetic and unlikable "heroes". Think about it : both wear a mask because they're ashamed of themselves, both turned out bad because of an idiotic accident (Shadow killing his team OFF SCREEN, beating him and calling him ugly and pathetic. Luke "sensing darkness" and almost killed him in his sleep), both an unreasonable obsession for an unlikable Mary Sue (or Gary Stu when we talk about Sonic) who constantly defeats them, both are kicked out unceremoniously from the plot to make room for another villain, who is also defeated in a laughably awful way (Eggman and Palpatine).

[@myapika5529]

Fix his story is easy, put a tragic backstory of Infinite’s abusive parents, that they were criminals and were horrible to him, training the jackal in a inhuman way to become like them, saying things like “You’re weak, the shame of the family” this could come in a flashback after Eggman calling he weak after he lose a battle or something, that would explain why he was so mad that Shadow called him weak and make Infinite betray Eggman. Sorry for the bad English, I’m Brazilian.

[@yu-nee4642]

I'm never going to not be mad about the amazing amount of wasted potential Infinite had. It's practically a crime of writing and art.

[@cretinouscretin9677]

Broly didn’t really hate Goku because ‘he cried’ though. Hell, once he breaks free from Paragus’ control and starts acting more like a person he actually doesn’t seem to target Goku more than anyone else he was fighting. Hell, there are points in the movie where he shoves Goku out of the way to keep pummeling Gohan and Trunks. The whole moment of Goku crying as a baby is more a metaphor for the fight between the two. Despite Broly’s vastly higher power, the much weaker Goku is still capable of affecting him with his crying, which is… what happens in the final fight. Broly vastly outclasses Goku in power, but Goku is still able to hurt/affect him in the end (with the help of his friends, where Broly is alone). The only reason Broly seemed mad at Goku at first was because he links the trauma of being stabbed and thrown out like trash, which awakened his power, to Goku and his crying as an infant. He uses that power to break free from Paragus’ mind control/restraint, which was already happening anyway (him breaking free is what got him to destroy all of South Galaxy).

[@knuxuki1013]

1:26 It's implied that Shadow killed the rest of the Jackal Squad...for no reason whatsoever.

[@charactersin-depth3472]

I don't think the plot needed the rest of the squad. We never see them in the game. Infinite could've been a single mercenary and the story wouldn't change.

[@littlemissdeadly24papyrus36]

@@charactersin-depth3472 yeah and I feel like shadow killing an entire group is pretty out of character for him shadow isn't heartless and he knows what it's like to lose someone so why would he inflict that on another person

[@user-sp2jg9rx8r]

@@littlemissdeadly24papyrus36 I don't know ask Sega that. XD

[@lpfan4491]

He probably killed them because they were fighting to the death or something. At least some kind of possible justification for the nonsence of Forces, he is already doing better than other characters for that point alone(yeah, the game was kinda just sad). The joke really is that infinite wanted to avenge them for like one second and then got hung up on shadow calling him pathetic and kicking his butt(even tho that is kinda bad writing even before the bad writing actually starts. Shadow can take on something like Solaris, Eggman should not have sent out someone he just recently hired after him. Why not sending metal sonic for example? that one at least has a 10% Chance to win maybe.).

[@omarornelas-shams1830]

Actually the only reason shadow “killed” the rest of the Jackal squad was that they would have betrayed both their leader and eggman and work with megatron and the time twins

[@maleficking6556]

For what it's worth, I like that he was an average character who gained immense power rather than just another angry deity or unknown monster, it made him more "human" as Sonic villains go. I think Infinite just needs more expanding on his character rather than a full reboot, such as what kind of harsh life did this character live to go mental so easily? Or maybe there could be a plot twist where Shadow isn't at fault but instead Infinite's memories were altered by Eggman, making him more loyal when the doctor was actually the one who wronged Infinite? Fact of the matter is, there's a large chance Infinite will be in the next Sonic game. So far the Phantom Ruby is still present (as of Sonic Mania Plus) and he's been banned from appearing in the IDW Sonic Comics for no clear reason. All that and if Zavok can appear so many times, I think a character with an actual fanbase can too. So hopefully his potential is actually given justice compared to his butchering in Forces.

[@DanieleMulas-up7np]

Outside of being some random asshole, what's there about him ? His motivations are all over the place, he's a bitch who's not taken seriously and is constantly beaten by the awful, unlikable heroes. The fuck is human about a pussy throwing a tantrum because they called him ugly and weak ? And what fanbase ? LOL No one cares about this Kylo Ren rip-off but those cringe yaoi fans on furry sites

[@maleficking6556]

@@DanieleMulas-up7np I can see we have very different view points.

[@DanieleMulas-up7np]

@@maleficking6556 Yeah, we do, because you're defending garbage.

[@maleficking6556]

@@DanieleMulas-up7np Forgive me if I don't feel obligated to incite a discussion. Given how harsh your initial reply was, I'm under the notion you're just letting known your hate of the character and have no actual interest in any defense (good or bad) I have to say.

[@DanieleMulas-up7np]

@@maleficking6556 Yes, I hate the character, because he's pisspoorly written and outside of "Could've Would've" scenarios, there's not much you can do to save him. His backstory is just a lazy throwaway panel in a crappy comic, no one cares about his Jackal Squad, not even him as he gives no hint at wanting to avenge them. Will SEGA be so stupid and desperate to bring him back ? Probably. But forget about rebooting him into a better character. That's simply not happening with SEGA.

[@thaneros]

Infinite motive wasn't bad. Its actually very human and relatable. The issue is that it didn't have enough exposition, even with the prequel comics. Maybe if we got know Infinite pre-transformation. Sorry to fanfic but it would have been cool if the Rookie and Infinite were childhood friends with the Rookie being some sort of prodigy that always overshadowed Infinite which gives him his insecurities.... *boom* both characters get a much need backstory.

[@charactersin-depth3472]

Y'know, I had a feeling that the two used to be friends thanks to one of the trailers.

[@jhmcd2]

Actually, that Phantom Ruby gives them an opening with that. The way Mania uses it, its like it has the power to completely re-write reality. They can pull a Star Trek '09...except all the content afterward is actually decent. They can even act like Infinite was just learning his powers. May even add some depth to the character.

[@spec___]

infinite doesn't betray Eggman because he can flip a switch and Infinite's powers are gone forever

[@Big-Image]

I had an idea of Infinite being the Phantom Ruby itself, and was puppeting Eggman the entire time.

[@chernagast6754]

I love Infinite pretty hard, but he needs a different origin and setup. The Japanese dialogue helps, but it also throws Shadow WAY off-character - apparently Shadow straight up murdered Infinite's team, for which he wanted vengeance, and then proceeded to leave Infinite maimed in one eye and left for dead while practically spitting on him on the way out. Rewrite Infinite so that he actually uses his reality manipulation to become a psychological villain that sows distrust by appearing as others. You want to tout the power of Friendship so hard, Sega? Have an enemy that makes you paranoid against your closest buddies.

[@DeltaBlazin]

I want Infinite to be better, he needs to be better.

[@cyberrex7071]

The symbolization of jackals is that seeing one meant bad luck, abandonment and loneliness. His theme also gives off vibes that he had a harsh childhood. Most likely bad parents, an orphan that was abandoned as a baby or shunned away by the world because of what jackals represented. It would make sense on why he hated the world for what it was and wanted to turn it into nothing but a desolate hellscape. They treated him like a monster and Shadow literally killing his comrades or siblings and calling him worthless is what finally broke him (I also hate that part in the DLC where Shadow does actually kill them instead of just knocking them out. It’s a horrible first impression of how he’s meant to be written). I also wonder where he got his scar. It’s most likely from his implied horrible childhood or his career as a mercenary. Maybe a rival got the best of him, abuse from bad parents or harassment from other people because of jackal symbolism. If Infinite were to ever return and SEGA not kill him off, he could become the main antagonist of another game and be a true threat to the Freedom Fighters and the Eggman Empire. He would hate Sonic for the destruction of his pride, Shadow for killing his comrades and Eggman for a secret cutscene of him betraying Infinite and leaving him die before he faced Sonic himself in the Death Egg Robot. He would plan his revenge by first, sneaking into one of Eggman’s bases and stealing the blueprints to final product of the Phantom Ruby and after creating his own, use it against Eggman and trap him inside Null Space. Eggman would go missing for months but not be noticed until the heroes realize he hasn’t attacked for while now. They would investigate this and discover Infinite’s return and that he has Eggman as prisoner. Having trained for years by now to prepare for his revenge, Infinite’s mastery over the Ruby would give him the high edge against them. Having started another war, Infinite is now a primary threat to not just the world, but the universe and timelines beyond due to him having greatly enhanced his abilities with the Ruby.

[@Hypershadic23]

Currently doing a rewrite/overhaul of Sonic Forces. In my version, Infinite is original a mercenary, trying to steal Eggman’s treasure; the rumored Phantom Ruby. Infinite managed to break in but when he touches the Ruby for the First time, he has these visions, similar to to one Eggman had in the prequel comic. Eggman recognizes Infinite’s skill and recruits him. What Infinite saw was a suffering world that had been broken and corrupt, but then he saw that world being washed away and a new reality being created. Standing over the newly formed world, Infinite saw himself with the Phantom Ruby in his chest and the mask on his face. Throughout my version of the game, Infinite only works with Eggman to gain more power, planning to double cross him eventually and use the Ruby to make his vision become a reality.

[@MagmaPaint]

The potential for Infinite and how to fix him are something one of my friends and I discuss almost regularly and one of our more interesting takes is being a foil to Shadow and Silver. On Shadow: Both would be tragic characters for sure, but where the Ultimate Lifeform is past his anger and desire for revenge in favor of moving on from his past and saving the world, Infinite could by contrast embrace the edge, refusing to move on from how he got here and trying to twist Shadow back into the same toxic mindset. On Silver: Personally, I think this musing from my friend is genius. Where Silver's powers are limited to only what can be manipulated around him in the real world, he'd have to be creative with them to go against a being who can pull anything and everything from nothing or the abstract. In my friend's words: Infinite's power is the idea of dividing by zero realized at full potential. That's just us, tho. (I could go in depth later because I have to go to work at time of writing). Edit: Reworded and fixed some sentences for clarity. I can still go in depth at a later time if anyone wants me to.

[@stormeaglegaming5395]

I would have loved that infinite the main villain but also his power be similar to the infinity gauntlet , wasn't forces gearing to be like endgame ? In fact Sega scourge had a theory that had a far better backstory than what the game gave .

[@ja-cai]

I think if they brought infinite back, but this time make him a way bigger threat to Sonic and co, and give him a tramatic backstory so we can understand more why he's so angry.

[@jamiegioca9448]

Do you guys think his backstory would be better if it was like this? I'll explain: After Shadow beats him up, he says to himself: "My squad... all my friends... and colleagues... they gave it their all, just to.. (Growling while hyperventilating which turns into a wry laugh) I'll meet you again, Shadow. And when I do, I'll make sure you'll learn my REAL worth." He won't get pissy just for being called "worthless" and "pathetic". He'll be spinning in a plethora of emotions, like anger, self-doubt, grief and guilt. Overhearing this, Eggman "offers himself to help" with the intention of brainwashing him and making him a powerful lackey. Infinite just wanted a rematch with Shadow, but after becoming stronger and getting his mind messed up, he wanted much more than that. As for his role in the story, make him more chaotic and destructive, and don't make the Avatar fight him (Not all alone, at least) Last but not least, make his final bossfight be like Mania, where you have to be in your super form and fight him and Eggman as they try to keep the Phantom Ruby to themselves

[@kunlesanders]

Rewritten Infinite? I wish that could be the case.

[@lautaro3680]

What a amazing channel! Its like you read all my thoughts in my head about the sonic franchise and put in videos. YOU ARE TOO COOL

[@ChaddyFantome]

The real problem with Infinite isn't really what he is. it's that he isn't fleshed out enough whatsoever. We need to see more of Infinite's past leading up to the game, maybe see him have a harsh life, working hard with his Squad to earn their reputation, see why he believes his reputation is important. Woulda been nice if we actually got to play as Shadow beating his squad members too. The outline of the character is honestly fine and even compelling. It's just not fleshed out.

[@soulless9081]

Just retcon the Sonic series from Colours forward...

[@controllerfreak78]

Sonic needs to hire a halfway decent writing team before they can create any compelling characters. I don’t know what’s going on with the writing, it’s not like it’s always been sonics priority, but it’s gone from endearing cheese of the adventure series to out right childish writing

[@LoneWindtheWolf]

Still waiting for Sega/Sonic Team to "Retcon every game that came out this decade" **and still waiting...**

[@AllFiction418]

I love Infinite because of the potential of what he could be. His current state isn't all that great but he has a TON of potential to be amazing.

[@MarcoSketcher]

One way I think they can fix Infinite is to actually have two of him. Let me explain, the original Infinite is the mercenary jackal that we see in the prequel comic and in principle of the Episode Shadow, which undergoes Eggman's experiments with the Phantom Ruby until creating the one he implants in his chest; but here Eggman would find his experience trying to have under his command very powerful beings who ended up betraying him (Examples Chaos, Neo Metal Sonic, The Deadly Six) and knowing that the original Infinite could do it himself, he decides to create an Infinite clone that is Read at your command using both the investigations of your grandfather Gerald and the real Phantom Ruby, that way the original would be in total animation suspended while the Clone would be the one to take his place and whom we see throughout the game. At least it is a way to fix this, but I would like to know that another way to fix Infinite, since it seems to me that he is a character that has a lot of potential but I was not fully exploited.

[@dpolaristar4634]

I had this thought that if they ever retconned the Sonic Games that Omega should have a backstory where unlike the other E series robots, his little animal battery Volunteered for some BS to become Omega so he wouldn't be weak, it would be a nice contrast with Gamma. I always thought it'd be funny if the little animal buddy looked like a chibi infinite, so we can have our cake and eat it to when it comes to paying homage to the idea of infinite but also mocking him.

[@FoxsDumbSeriesMaker]

Yes, please retcon or at least improve Infinite. He's a character I really like, but he could definitely use a lot of work. Let's make him the main villain of the next Sonic game. Also, I always found it jarring how Sonic acted like Infinite just didn't matter. The guy beats Sonic's ass the first time they met, he was imprisoned by Eggman for months and was tortured, and saw that the whole world was a mess. You would think that would have broken down Sonic a little, but no. Sega just decided to keep him the same cocky dude as if nothing happened. Characters like Shadow and even Jet were able to get under Sonic's skin, but not Infinite? Bruh.

[@Skerp129]

Funny how it's colors sonic who has less attitude then the 4kids and dreamcast sonic. Makes you think, y'know

[@Speedstreak]

I theorized that he could have been a marvel apocalypse character who commanded the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

[@Keegstar]

I saw dragon Ball and sonic and I got super hyped, still very hyped!!

[@masenadams9551]

I agree with you. I think we didn't get that much from him. After Forces, we didn't get to see Infinite ever again.

[@cyanide_crow7970]

Here's some setup points for my rewrite that I actually think is pretty good: -Infinite, the avatar (custom hero) and the Phantom Ruby come from a different world -Infinite and avatar are good friends -The Phantom Ruby opens portals that allow people to teleport between worlds -Shadow comes in at the wrong time and assumes Infinite and avatar are working for Eggman -They get into a scuffle and Shadow knocks avatar into a bush (unknowingly saving them) while Eggman takes Infinite and the Phantom Ruby -Eggman experiments of Infinite with the ruby -The ruby wipes his memory and seemingly becomes sentient, possessing Infinite -Instead of classic coming back, we get an alternate version of modern, maybe with the spindash instead of the boost -The ruby possesses Sonic, starting the third act of the game off with a bang -The ruby can still make illusions, but brings back villians that did some real damage (different ones again in my rewrite universe) See, some interesting plot points with actual stakes! Not so hard, is it?

[@tomasgomeziglesias6769]

I bet ya the alternate version of Sonic with the spindash could be the Dreamcast version of Sonic originally planned to appear in Sonic Generations voiced by Ryan Drummond but was scrapped because Ryan's union recomended him to not accept Sega's deal.

[@theanimator4098]

1:10 even though that’s a good idea,infinite is the only sonic character that never betrayed eggman.zavok?betrayed.lyric?betrayed.shadow?betrayed.every villain other than eggman has either been a traitor or went on Sonics side.

[@pundertalefan4391]

The only things I really like from Sonic Forces is...Creating an OC, playing as them, and unlocking clothes. I would've just bought an app.

[@ArynBacklogDragon]

you know what's the saddest thing? as disappointing as Infinite was, he was *STILL* the best original character to come out of the 2010s.

[@chiharris2810]

Eh. I don't think ALL of the 2010 games should be retconned away. If it were me I'd kind of have Gens and Colors stay canon while every other main game goes away from this decade.

[@AndyJakeGaming]

I liked Infinite and I agree with you. They should of done more.

[@randomguy5339]

I'm kinda considering forces to be a alternate reality since mania only specified the reality warping powers the ruby had. Plus gems that can time travel have been used before. It would be more interesting that the ruby when eggman lost traveled to a new universe and took over that realities version of infinite. That way infinite can be retconned into a poor soul who's being controlled like a puppet by the ruby. Infinite might not even realize that he's being controlled as his mind is slowly corrupted by the power of the ruby. Basically I see the ruby as a reality traveling being that slowly takes control over whatever is using it.

[@friendlycryptid6797]

Oh a giant monster Infinite would of been so great. In Episode Shadow it has some good ideas. Him using Omega and Rouge against him! Why couldn't they of used that idea more. If he kept his hated for Shadow let him go for Shadow where it could hurt- Maria. Use his illusions to break Shadow down or try to in a similar way to Black Doom. No Illusion Shadows but Shadow under an influence of Illusion. Alas the Phantom Plot device was inconsistent. Despite his whiny attitude I still dig Infinite.

[@excitablepack7076]

I just see Infinite as a missed opportunity. I think he deserves a second chance.

[@user-sp2jg9rx8r]

I wanted Infinite to have a voice like Jack of Blades from the 1st Fable. =) Now that would've been soo Cool. I just hated how he sounded like Mephiles and his motivation for being who he is "Weak" Such a shame how the trailers hype him up to be a interesting Villain, only to turn out as an wimpy character who couldn't beat Shadow. XD I like him for his design, I just hate how he really is.

[@DemonDethchase]

Never played Forces though I had my own thing for rewriting Infinite based off a fan theory on his identity, maybe you heard about it before Forces' release Cue self indulgent fan fiction thing! After Sonic defeats Infinite for the last time, the Phantom Ruby on Infinite's chest starts glowing wildly as he floats up screaming before disappearing in a flash (leaving his fate pretty ambiguous). The only thing left behind is a momento/trinket that falls to the floor. Recognizing the trinket with shaking hand Sonic reaches out to pick up as Tails comes to his side. Sonic, with a look like he saw a ghost, shows Tails the trinket only for him to pull out the exact same thing. Yes Infinite would be Tails - or "Infinite" Miles Prower - but from the bad future of Sonic 2 on the Game Gear/Master System when Sonic fails to save him from Eggman. And yes that whole scene is basically a 1:1 of Nelo Angelo from Devil May Cry when his identity is revealed to be Vergil. Also speaking of Nelo Angelo, thats more or less what I'd shoot for, someone close to the main hero but not in control of themselves, incase its the Phantom Ruby corrupting Tails. Also playing up the lyrics of his theme "Only scars remain of who I was" and also carrying on with taking inspiration from the lyrics So look around you And tell me what you really see *You live a lie And that's the difference in you and me* He'd basically be out to shatter the image of Sonic being the hero everyone thinks he is, because he was never saved Also I'd use the trinket thing as a tool for Tails to give him abit of courage while faced with Infinite as he's trying to fix up Omega, rather cowering and crying for Sonic. Basically have Tails struggle with trying to bring Omega online (as his confidence has been rattled after Sonic's "death") and as he's cursing himself for not being able to bring Omega back online he'll get out the trinket thing, we'll have a flashback to its origins - largely for the big reveal happens so its not something out left field - and then Chaos would appear. Tails would still get scared, but feeling the trinket in his hand, he'd grip it tight and it'd give him the courage to fight. Yes way too much time and thought has gone into this, though for all the thought I don't really know what the trinket thing could be. I do however have a thing for when a green Tails gets the it from Sonic, though at times I worry if its maybe abit too sappy for its own good as it cruises down Bad Fan Fiction Boulevard lol.

[@charactersin-depth3472]

Dead Tails from Sonic 2 GG's bad ending makes for a better villain.

[@DemonDethchase]

@@charactersin-depth3472 I've had people say it's cool when I bring it up but others saying about how Tails is the purest character of the crew (besides Cream) and it wouldn't really make any sense for a heel turn from him as stuff like that doesn't really fit Sonic and we've had too many time travel shenanigans. Also not sure if Tails would actually be dead, as that's maybe too dark. Probably just still in Eggman's company for all those years would be safer. Also with the theory video, the guy said about the one tail that maybe it was damaged and/or removed by Eggman, though again probably too dark so more like they've been fused together by the Phantom Ruby, as we know that it can alter people's appearance. See the regular Egg Robos being changed into Hard Boiled Heavies simply by being exposed to it in Mania. For how the trinket flashback would go. More self indulgent fan fiction as we travel down Bad Fan Fiction Boulevard Not long after being taken under Sonic's wing, Tails would be would be fighting badniks with Sonic. However with him still being green, he takes a bump from a Motobug after a botched landing from a jumping spin attack where he lands flat on his face. Trying to shake it off he looks up and see the Motobug looking right at him, revving up before racing towards him to finish the job. "Sonic!" he cries, covering his eyes. Hearing the sound of the Motobug being smashed he lowers his hands to see Sonic standing tall in front him, facing down the remaining Badniks who circling around them, closing in for the kill. Giving a quick look over his shoulder at Tails, with a smirk, he tells him "sit tight kid" before blasting on off, to go on the offensive. When Tails sees how easy Sonic makes scraping the remaining robots it leaves him feeling pretty worthless. So he stays sitting where he is, nursing the bump he took. After Sonic waves off the last animal, freed from its metal cage, he turns around looking for Tails only to find him sitting down nursing the bump looking sad. He approaches his friend and tries to offer a friendly word of encouragement, along with an outstretched hand, but its rejected with a wordless head turn from Tails. Unsure what to do Sonic then pulls out a trinket he has on him, and tells Tails to take it. "This is important to me, I am counting on you to look after it for me," he tells his friend which helps Tails smile again. He takes the trinket from Sonic and they walk off into the sunset together. Again, with the keepsake, its more less DMC, with Dante giving Nero Yamato at the end of DMC4 DANTE: Keep it. NERO: What...? I thought this meant a lot to you...? DANTE: That's the only kind of gift worth giving. I want to entrust it to you, and so I am. As you can tell, I really like Devil May Cry as well as Sonic. Also here's a rough guide/outline to possible scenario for "Infinite" Miles Prower, probably just before the finale. It'd be the good old villain has two friends of the hero and he must choose who to save. Pretty much like Batman Forever with Chase and Robin, or Spider-Man with MJ and the school bus of kids. Only here it would be Tails (because ofcourse it would be, what with Infinite being Tails himself) and... lets say Amy. They'd be in some trap that Eggman set up, but Infinite would be the ring master so speak to the the presentation. Also for Amy, she'd possibly in her original outfit. Mostly as I think it's widely regarded that CD happens before Sonic 2 MD, but the events of Sonic 2 GG/MS actually happen first... or at least it was released before the MD version so that's good enough for me. Also for Infinite, that would have been the last time he'd have seen Amy (when he was Tails) so I guess it'd add to the mind games while he's giving the old bad guy spiel, with lines of Sonic presenting himself as a hero when really he's a fraud going back to the lyrics in the Infinite theme of "you live a lie and that's the difference between you and me" because "you saved her (Amy) when she needed you, but where were you during my time of need!?" as I suppose over the course of the game he'd become more frustrated at the end of each encounter that he's not cracked Sonic yet, as it'd be going by the rule of 3 with rival characters (hero loses>stalemate>hero wins) Though Infinite underestimates Tails, who manages to get free and helps Sonic save Amy before the final fight begins. This is mostly as a means of making him look strong and not like the jobber wimp he was made out to be in Forces But yea that it, more or less an outline for something to go with "Infinite" Mile Prower thing. One thought I did have originally was the OC in Amy's place but nah, go with Amy. Plus it'd heighten Sonic's personal connection between the captives, rather than someone he met what might as well 5 minutes ago (no offence OC) And that's more or less all I have on the "Infinite" Miles Prower front. Hopefully I've not been rambling too much here lol.

[@braydenb1581]

Sonic v shadows race was the greatest moment if my childhood. I wish more final bosses in sonic felt more like rainbow road on 200cc than a giant boss with patterns

[@marx8743]

I remember I thought of an idea where infinite and tails were too sides of the same coin. Where he was bullied like tails but never had someone like sonic in his life. Maybe SEGA could do something similar too what I said in a tails spinoff game where they also make tails not be a crap character

[@fantasyshadows3207]

YO SAAME

[@fantasyshadows3207]

Actually my scenario was that Infinite fights Sonic and Tails together. I imagine it appears in a ‘special memory’ that the avatar can find while playing the game (has to listen to a conversation though late in the game). Tails and Sonic see a city getting attacked by Eggman’s robots and other weird guys from the past. After saving all of the civilians, the duo approach the mysterious guy behind all this, a crazy jackal with a mask. At first, it seems pretty even, mysterious new power vs power of friendship. The Phantom Ruby army of Zavok, Chaos, and Shadow, all try to take down the duo to no avail. They both work together well and cover each other’s weaknesses. But they still don’t have any idea how to take down Infinite. Tails offers to stay as analyzer and backup just in case. While Sonic pesters the villains, Tails watches their movement and abilities. He realizes that due to all the enemies fighting the same way, something must be wrong. He also yells out good tips while watching Infinite’s moves. When Infinite tries to sneak attack Sonic while he’s dealing with the army, Tails kicks the jackal in the back of the head. He does also realize that this weird thing the guy is wielding is causing these armies to appear. Connected to why these different enemies all seem to fight the same despite being so different... However things go south when Infinite’s dramatic butt makes lightning appear in the sky, scaring Tails. Infinite sees his brief panic and sends it again, this time, when Tails is near a building. Then Infinite makes the top of the building crumble and encase around Tails. Sonic who initially was very confident (but serious) and sassy (yet cheerful) in the fight rushes over to try and pull him out of the rubble. Infinite uses this opportunity to send his illusional minions after Sonic. Sonic being so distracted on pulling Tails out of the rubble refuses to change strategies, prioritizing Tails’ wellness over himself. Unfortunately because of that, Sonic gets hit a lot and endures a lot of injuries. In the inside, Tails tries to push himself out, but isn’t strong enough. However, he can hear Sonic screaming his name and getting hurt constantly. Sonic eventually falls and Infinite has won over the blue hedgehog and kidnaps him. Tails finally pulls himself out of the rubble. It was too late. Infinite was gone, and Sonic is too. Over on a broken television screen, he hears that Sonic has fallen, and the rest of the world will as well. I think this shows Infinite as a scary planner. He might not be the most physically capable but he sees a weakness and can very much take advantage of it.

[@fantasyshadows3207]

The in game hypothetical story has the avatar encounters a small ‘edgy’ masked fox who has been the biggest ‘saboteur’ in Infinite’s invasion. This ‘original’ character is shown to be wearing a mask that is nearly similar to Infinite’s. He is also wearing a large cloak which somehow contains a lot of weapons. Additionally, this is a sonic character that is shown using guns (how controversial!) although it seems that these ones only work on Eggman’s robots in order to disable them. For a supposed ally, this fox is so cold, devoid of emotion, hiding all of it behind a mask. For some reason, this fox is unwilling to join the resistance which the avatar finds odd. Aren’t they all on the same side? At some point, the avatar gets the mission to go rescue some hostages and Sonic. This is when the fox fully agrees to join the rookie. They sneak into the prison and go to find Sonic and other prisoners. There they encounter other characters that would have taken out Infinite a lot sooner if they were there (Blaze, Chaotix, etc.) After freeing Sonic (shown to be a bit worn out but eager to keep on fighting), the group all escape back to the original base. However, when Infinite tries to attack the fleeing (tired) group, the fox chooses to fight Infinite to buy enough time for the escape. After the returning party returns back to the base, they see that the fox friend has also came… only he is barely able to stand, his mask scratched and practically falling off, his cloak in tatters, revealing a yellow furred fox with two tails… the fox collapses, and Sonic yells out for him. At that point on, Sonic, other characters, and most importantly, Tails, officially join the resistance. Amy and Knuckles, although pretty resentful that Tails had just left them are ultimately grateful that he has returned. Tails becomes one of the leaders of the group automatically. Compared to more freelancers like Knuckles, Tails is a better strategist and leader. This frees a lot of burden off of Amy and Knuckles’ shoulders who use their time to more precisely find a way to take down the jackal and his army once and for all (rather than just trying to save the civilians). This ultimately works better for them as they finally were able (everyone together) to take down Infinite who escapes to somewhere unknown.

[@fantasyshadows3207]

I think it would be interesting to also have ‘special memories’ that show what has happened to Tails (while he has gone ‘Coldsteel’ edginess.). Tails, feeling distraught after losing Sonic (who was right by him) heads back to his workshop to help build weapons for the resistance. Only due to his mental state, is not able to make something more functional. Day by day, just seeing his face made him remember of being useless to help Sonic, more importantly, he was used as a tool to take down Sonic. If he wasn’t there, Sonic would be alive, still be fighting alongside the resistance. After a while, Tails gives up, and disappears. This leaves Amy and Knuckles to use some of the remnants of what Tails has made in order to combat Infinite. Tails instead dons a mask, in order to hide his face (and keep him sane). He wear a large cloak which hides one of his tails in order to hide his true identity. All because he can’t stand knowing he hurt his friend and could do nothing about it. Not only that, he changes his own persona entirely. He starts pushing himself to be a perpetual thorn in Infinite’s side, even if it would hurt him more. If he did find Sonic, if he did see him again… he hoped that Sonic would forget him. He didn’t deserve his friendship. He rather he lose himself than ever hurt his hero. Only when the avatar and others rescue Sonic and his true identity is revealed, Tails finally gets some rest, opting to heal from the fight rather than to keep working. I imagine that the revamp would have moments to explore the headquarters and other places rather than all straight action as a way to balance the gritty element with some life and humor. In one of these moments (in gameplay you can explore, not a cutscene), the avatar can listen on Sonic staying by Tail’s side while he heals, he himself is pretty worn out. Tails’ voice is shaky as he tries to continuously apologize for his mistakes (and for being afraid of lightning), but Sonic says that’s alright, mistakes do happen. When Tails expresses that he is useless, Sonic comforts him, and tells him the truth. In the prison, he wasn’t able to stay strong, he actually given up, several times. But in his cell, he heard whispers from other prisoners, from Infinite himself of some small fox who expertly wields technology, he who keeps on messing with Infinite, who is giving him a bad time. Hearing this, Sonic refused to give up, hosting several prison breaks although only a few managed to escape. One of these escapes leads to the resistance discovering that Sonic was being held captive. Hearing this, the fox calms down a little.

[@TheReZisTLust]

The beginning of sonic adventure 3 ill start with him resting on a lounge chair with amy knuckles and tails chilling at the pool when sonic shouts screaming awake and saying it feels like he was asleep for a decade boom past is but a dream lol

[@w1nther930]

Some of the worst parts about infinite is how restricting his fights were. It was so boring and bad for how much potential he had. Imagine Infinite in freaking frontiers now. He would fit much more there

[@Sgtfan-ov4lp]

The only way for that to happen is if he shows up in the IDW comics or in a reboot because he basicly died in forces

[@metakirby]

1:28 ok, does he really think that he, a normal jackal, can defeat an ultimate life form. Don’t beat yourself up if you lose to shadow, he isn’t a force to be reckoned with.

[@ilay_ux]

fucking amazing channel, I thank you so much for all the content on your channel!

[@bjkaye9918]

If they ever have infinite in the live action sonic movies I hope they make him better.

[@tristanwaits5688]

You want Infinite to have a really good motive? Here's my idea while making the "I'M NOT WEAK" meme make sense. Keep what the prequel gave us, but also prod a little into Infinite's origin when he was Zero on his childhood to properly introduce him. Then, after Shafow beats the crud out of him and leaves, have Infinite start breaking down in anger and sadness and blaming himself for being too weak to save his friends. And then put in his refusal to be weak and that can clarify things a lot better than what we got.

[@waterh2o299]

I agree they should change his backstory

[@user-xc7sk6ro9f]

1:57 "OH MY GOD, HE'S SO GOD DAMN COOL, BUT SO GOD DAMN DUMB" - Vegeta, DragonballZ: The broly abridged

[@WaterKirby1994]

Why not give Infinite the Captain Basilisx Treatment by merely expanding on his mostly unknown backstory & suggesting that Infinite's backstory that he revealed in Episode Shadow never actually happened? If you've seen SMBZ Episode 8 you'll notice that there was an epic Dark Koopatrol who was given a super soldier serum that Eggman Created. This vengeful character, Captain Basilisx is notable for blaming Mario for something that he actually believes happened, yet never actually did. Why not reveal that Infinite was given a similar injection that made him insane before he became equipped with the PR by having Eggman throw him at Sonic again with a lot more of that stuff injected into him? Also you forgot a lot of the Original Broly's backstory as well that actually made him popular to begin with. He was born with an unheard of Powerlevel of 10,000, which King Vegeta feared. Broly who was left with Kakarot's loud crying only to then be taken & slashed with a sword then left for dead imprisoned with his father only for Frieza to later that day destroy the planet which Broly saved both himself & his father from. He was then raised by Paragus for his revenge with Goku's arrival bringing back extremely traumatic memories for Broly. Even his defeat in the 1st Broly Movie was by Goku punching the location where Broly was wounded as a newborn. The 2nd Broly Movie had Broly's intelligence reduced to that of a mere beast after being wounded in his debut movie & frozen alive. Broly's original character stemmed from that he was "The Monster" in his essence. Super Broly adds another dimension to his character by showing how different Broly could have been if his life happened under completely different circumstances. His legendary strength & tendency to go berserk are reasons why Broly is as popular as he is & being voiced by Vic Mignogna also helps.

[@crichie21]

infinite is basically sasuke 2.0 because infinite had the same motive "my clan was killed and now i want revenge against the person who killed my clan and then later i want revenge against people who disrespected my clan"

[@xseteen]

1:08 I agree, it should be the other way around

[@mrkaji8913]

Metal sonic should be rebooted I mean he has potential to grow and eventually become good

[@windandfireproductions5358]

The fact that sonic and friends didn't go super to defeat infinite shows just how weak he really was,the sad thing is that he never will get the retcon he deserves

[@mao-sama6446]

In regards to the avatar beating Infinite, he/she had the Phantom Ruby prototype so that’s how I thought he/she was able to fight against Infinite. I mean, he/she uses the prototype to stop the sun Infinite made at the end of the game. I know this doesn’t have anything to do with Infinite’s character, I just wanted to point that out.

[@DanieleMulas-up7np]

It does, it's called Deus Ex Machina. A bullshit plot device that pops out just in time to save the hero, making the villain look more incompetent.

[@grimmy2313]

They really escalated the story pretty fast, Sonic gets knocked out by Infinite, everybody thinks he died, then days or months later, and they explain he's holed up in the Death Egg, being tortured by Eggman, yet he doesn't look weak and don't have a scratch on him. It's like the game was going towards serious moments, but then fools us with happy go lucky scenes where everything turns out alright in the end. It's weird how Infinite doesn't use his new power from Eggman to kill Sonic, even the doctor was frustrated by the fact he didn't finish him off. At least Sonic 06 achieved it's goal by having a serious character who actually pulled off what no villain in the series could do, killing Sonic (but it ain't canon to the future games lol).

[@robertchaney2704]

When the first trailer for Forces dropped and I saw Infinite for the first time, I was convinced he WAS Mephiles. I thought sonic team had found a way to re-introduce him into the universe, without having to make sonic 06 canon again. So here's my version of how Infinite could have re-introduced Mephiles. Egg-man discovers the phantom ruby, and begins experimenting on it, since it's extremely powerful, but he can't figure out way. While trying to figure this out, he accidentally releases a strange entity from the Ruby, who introduces himself as "Infinite". Infinite pulls the same "You have freed me, I will grant your every wish", spiel that shadow pulls in SA2. When Egg-man proves skeptical of Infinite's claims, Infinite shows him a vision of a world under Egg-man's rule. But it's not the post apocalypse Egg-man-land many of us imagine. This is Egg-man-land is a sparkling civilized utopia, free from the unruly chaos of the natural world. Everything is automated and clean, there is no wildlife anywhere, and it is all peaceful. This would help give some depth to Egg-man's character, as we explore his motivation from his perspective. As a man trying to tame the savage wilderness, and create a place where he and those like him can live in comfort and prosperity. While the "evil animals" are left to rot outside in their natural place. Infinite offers all of this to Egg-man, his perfect world, and tells him that he can help him achieve it. This preserves Mephiles' manipulative character, having him deceive Egg-man by appealing to his humanity, rather than his ego or desire to dominate. Later during the beginning cutscene where Sonic fights Infinite for the first time, Infinite actually speaks to Sonic. He addresses him like an old friend, as though this isn't the first time they've met. He then goes on to say, "killing you once was never enough, how I will so enjoy doing it again". We then get the scene where Infinite defeats Sonic, and Egg-man conquers the world (although it's not established in a time card as there will be story missions involving the actual war and it's fall during Sonic's absence). As time goes on, we get more scenes of Infinite advising Egg-man, manipulating him, and laying waste to Sonic's world. After one of the story missions, we get a scene where Knuckles is leading the resistance, and he and his squad get stopped by Infinite. Knuckles holds Infinite off while the other's escape, and he's actually managing to do some damage (showcasing Knuckles as a capable and powerful character). Until infinite gets frustrated and stops underestimating him, taking the fight more seriously. When knuckles is defeated and at Infinite's mercy, Infinite tell Knuckles how "Satisfying it will be to destroy the last of the Echidna's. I only wish I could have been there to witness the destruction of the rest of you. My Jailers". Before Knuckles can figure out what he's talking about however, the custom character rushes in, scoops knuckles up, and runs away. Knuckles decides to return to angel Island to get some answers, (side note, to address why knuckles is not on Angel Island guarding the master Emerald, it's explained that Angel Island fell very early in the war, but the chaos, and master emeralds were sealed in a vault only Knuckles can access), and is shown a vision from the master emerald, of how Infinite arrived in from another dimension, and threatened to destroy everything. But the Echidna's used their knowledge of magic seal him within the phantom ruby. Then, later towards the end of the game/final boss with Infinite, while Infinite is fighting Sonic he reveals that his true name is Mephiles. And that he has traveled across the multiverse, conquering and destroying worlds. Many of those worlds had their own Sonic, their own Egg-man, their own echidna tribe, all of which he destroyed, several times over. This really ups the stakes and makes Infinite seem like an even greater threat. As we know that not only is he powerful enough to kill Sonic and his friends several times over, but he's probably lived through these exact events multiple times. Effectively giving him the power of precognition, since he knows these events well enough to predict what will happen next. Which explains why Egg-man was able to conquer the world so easily. Of course however, Sonic defeats him. They either seal him back in the ruby, or outright destroy him, or just hurl him back into the void from whence he came. but regardless they win in the end. I would write more about how exactly the could defeat him, and what other story beats could potentially be derived from this version of events, but I think i'll leave it here. If anyone has an other questions or ideas please respond I'd love to get a discussion going from this. Anyways thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Not a connection I would've made, yet I agree 110%

[@misterwolf9470]

i would go for ''Zuko'' Treatment

[@cypher_infinite-]

Infinite the jackal is a good bad guy

[@kitsuneayano]

yeah and since sonic forces came out I always though our oc character had to do with infinite like a old friend but us mc got amnesia and the finding out that we were actually on the evil side with forgotten memories would of been way cooler

[@Tzarina8472]

Round about 1:40. Going to pause you right there. Look up Lord Danny's video on Infinite having PTSD. That at least upgrades him to 1.25 dimensions.

[@conradojavier7547]

Infinite should be Rewritten to be a Black Arm's Contingency Plan.

[@KaiboStudios]

2:39 C'mon we don't need to retcon all of them we'd miss out on characters like....um....dodonpa?

[@sonosharingan4]

Okay I'm not going to argue with this man he infinite would be a good Sonic villain but in my opinion no one can beat mephiles

[@manuelinacio4038]

The director of Sonic Frontiers said that there is a chance of Infinite and Mephiles to return, especially since they are tying everything together.

[@Fireboltagain]

When I saw the thumbnail I died.

[@The_Ultimate_Agent]

Infinite had so much potential! He needs to be retconned!

[@manuelinacio4038]

the only way to fix Infinite is giving him the Darth Maul treatment in Clone Wars, no reboot like Broly, especially after Frontiers.

[@starlightrose3237]

Honestly, I'm not sure if a retcon is even needed. A lot of the issues with Infinite could be fixed just by expanding on what's already there, since much of his backstory and motivations are still unexplored. It could recontextualize a lot of things that Infinite does.

[@tailsnick]

I didn't even think about that, but yeah, Sonic does beat Infinite without the chaos emeralds. Wow does that make his battle feel completely worthless... I hope Ian Flynn can use Infinite in IDW comics so he can be better written.

[@codyx555]

I think infinite could've been one of the best sonic villains if his potential wasn't wasted