Christian Monks in a Desert Full of Sound

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Most of us think of early Christian monks moving into the desert to escape the chaos and noise of civilization to lead the quiet contemplative life. In a fascinating study by Kim Haines-Eitzen we learn that in fact the desert was and is unexpectedly filled with sound. Based on her high-tech own recordings in some of the major deserts of the world, Haines-Eitzen, professor of Early Christianity at Cornell, considers the importance of sound and the possibilities of silence, not just for the ancients but for those of us seeking quiet in our own lives. Here she explains to Bart her findings, based on her new book (which includes access to her stunning recordings), The Sonorous Desert: What Deep Listening Taught Early Christian Monks -- and What It Can Teach Us.

[@arthurmartinson4370]

In Megan's absence, Bart should dye his hair purple.

[@donny_doyle]

And big bright white round glasses.

[@brianelza9807]

I grew up in a city. But in my 30s, I lived on the Hopi reservation (in Arizona) for about 3 years. At first, it seemed so quiet that it was a little eerie. But after a couple of months, I began to enjoy the silence and started to hear the true sound of the desert. It was wonderful!

[@stephanieparker1250]

Sounds like heaven. ❤

[@sebolddaniel]

The Hopi language is in the Uto-Aztecan language family.

[@MrArdytube]

Once, i inadvertently had the experience of pristine absolute natural silence. Then, far away, i heard the silenced pierced by a single crystalline moo of a cow. I remember that sound even after 40 years

[@barrymoore4470]

This is like the satori in Zen.

[@davidkeller6156]

It’s been a long time since I’ve experienced complete silence. Growing up in a small town in the 50s, I remember silence in the winter when snow was on the ground. But the last time I really experienced complete silence was a before dawn trip to Crater Lake when the ground was covered in heavy snow. I was there before sunrise to do some photography and there as only one other car. When I got out of my car there was no sound. The most complete silence I had experienced in a long time.

[@Robert-er5wq]

There are rooms. Germans call them sound-dead. Complete silence can drive you mad. I think you always heard something - just not humans... And there is some misanthropic aspect to monasticism.

[@JT-vt5kk]

A few years ago I was in a remote part of Canyonlands in Utah, and wrote this poem: Cantonlands So quiet you can Hear your ears sing

[@barrymoore4470]

Canyonlands felt so remote and empty when I was there some forty years ago, it almost felt like being on another planet.

[@leedoss6905]

I worked in the desert we could smell supper being cooked for miles away. It's not just sound.

[@JohnnieWalkerGreen]

People writing songs that voices never shared... And no one dared... Disturb the sound of silence.

[@Sportliveonline]

so what is God and how did God get there ?

[@sebolddaniel]

Simon and Garfukel

[@bradleyswinderman7442]

​@@sebolddanielPaul Simon & Art Garfunkel "The Sound of Silence"

[@sebolddaniel]

@@bradleyswinderman7442 that may be the name of the album. I play the song Scarborough Fair on my guitar. It is a seventh fret capoed Travis arpeggio pick.

[@bradleyswinderman7442]

@@sebolddaniel That is also the name of the song from which the quoted text derives...look it up right here on KZbin

[@enkidufive3349]

As I write this, it's 110 degrees Fahrenheit in Phoenix. Solitude in the desert, which I do myself at times, is best suited to the winters here.

[@robertloader9826]

Sounds blissful. From the cold, damp, grey and noisy post-industrial north of England I would do anything for one day of that!

[@jholiman1]

Yuma, AZ here. Agree with you.

[@ReligieVrij]

"...I think much of my project was driven by my own desire to get out of the crazy loud world and into silent places". Boy, do I feel that! This woman has chosen what is better.

[@josephchicone7585]

Hi Kim , I live in hector ny and work in Ithaca! So, as a young man I was a Jesuit volunteer on the colville reservation in eastern Washington state.there I learned spiritually that was the center of the common sense of reality among the elder culture, is based around animism and the songs that embody the spirits that represent these living things.in the early days, natives of the Pacific Northwest were facilitated by the chanting and singing of the black robes .songs reflect the sounds of the natural world. We all have a personal song

[@markwilliams9855]

Replying to you Joseph from the city limits of Okanogan tonight. And enjoying song too.

[@markwilliams9855]

I appreciate your post

[@UCR2eBQ]

Can't wait to get hold of Dr. Kim's book. I've been groping around this rabbit hole for decades, since i started looking for Elijah's "small voice in the wind"

[@lynwood77]

For what it's worth and to help you in your search: if you'll reread the passage in 1 Kings 19, you'll find that the "still small voice" is, like God, not in the wind. It's also not in the earthquake. Nor is it in the fire. It comes to Elijah alone and after all of those physical phenomena (all of which, by the by, are very noisy.)

[@1bengrubb]

I asked God once why he didn't speak to me like the prophets in the bible.....he replied!!! He said in a voice that seemed to encompass the universe "When you are finished reading the bible---if I have anything else to say I"ll let you know." He's been speaking to me in his word ever since. Its amazing when you read a passage and all of a sudden you are seeing the current situation you are in right there in the bible---and what's going to happen next!

[@Karen-0914]

I am reminded of the deep silence I have experienced when walking in freshly fallen snow and also when sitting still in a redwood forest. It is lovely.

[@Cloudryder]

Nice title! Especially when the ancients believed that our senses were perceived as tactile. This is going to be good.

[@stanwoody4988]

Are all biblical scholars partial to knotty pine?

[@RikardPeterson]

yes

[@nancyhope2205]

Thank you for giving me new ways of hearing.

[@stephenarmiger8343]

I expected to hear clips of the sounds recorded, but there were none. Once, while skiing, I used my cellphone to make a video. Playing it back, I heard sounds that I was making. That was unexpected. Interesting that we, almost without thinking, separate ourselves from other animals. Other living beings. The human heart and lung sounds are animal sounds. Perfectly natural. Very few people study humans. Desmond Morris comes to mind. Yet we can trace our bones back to fish. Our brains, veins and arteries, nerves. Some monastics were early biologists. Observing.

[@ingvaraberge7037]

I also expected to get a sample of the desert sounds.

[@cfhklhog]

I live in Jerusalem and spend couple of nights in Mar Sabba monstery which is located in Judea desert. They don't have electricity over there. And yes sounds and caves all around included. Very Special experience to be and pray there.

[@stephanieparker1250]

This is very interesting, I’ve never even considered the influence of the environment on early monks. Thanks for great interview!

[@markrichter2053]

If you digitised the book you could encorporate sound files, or make it an audio book with beautiful found sound sections from the desert. I know it wouldn’t be the same as as being here but it might inspire people to go out and find some quiet Academic books can be so dry. Asceticism and mysticism are experiential

[@bobstine3785]

"pregnant silence" Fascinating interview!

[@Sportliveonline]

so what is God and how did God get there ?

[@TappanZee1234]

Wow what a fabulous, inspiring, thought provoking session. This makes me want to write a whole essay on the American West. I was born in Boise, Idaho (raised in a super fundamentalist church of farmers, ranchers, timber men, and public school teachers!). Moved to various places in New Mexico for more than 25 years (where I experienced urban sprawl and remote nature seeing a flock of wild turkeys and another time a hawk flying with a snake in its mouth). Traveled around the world for work, and now live in the least likely spiritual place, the Las Vegas, Nevada valley. However, where I live in the very south of the LV valley, it is somewhat silent, but also next to raw land. The desert is definitely not silent in my experience. There are always insects, rodents, reptiles, birds and animals. The wind is a prominent factor. Then there are cloud bursts with flash floods and water falls that may last only a few minutes or hours. In the last year I have been following a KZbinr, The Trek Planner, who I assume lives in central Utah, but frequently travels to south to explore ancient indigenous cliff ruins. What I’ve found fascinating is that these remote locations have tons of rock art/petroglyphs and don’t seem to me to be associated with family life, but that is just my interpretation. Secondly, what are thought to be fortifications/viewpoints strike me as contemplative structures that might be for experiencing psychoactive substances such as peyote. This interview today makes me think that some of the desert ruins were for shamistic practices. My thoughts run away with me here. While there are certainly large settlements such as Chaco Canyon, some of the outliers now strike me as meditative/monastic environs. These areas in the SW US were not isolated; it is known that there was trade between these areas and civilizations in Mexico because of exotic bird skeletons and jewelry from sea shells. Always look forward to these weekly interviews.

[@KarenMcAda]

I have read that anchorites were persons who were willingly walled up in their cells in order to be 100% separated from the world. I guess I had a limited understanding of the definition!

[@kithigginson4649]

Super interesting discussion! Thank you.

[@carolynrobe5957]

I have a few questions, 1 What did the monks eat i.e. how did they get food ? Not much opportunity for agriculture in the desert, and one doesn't think of them as hunters? Did they raise goats or something like that ?2 Women contemplatives: Did they have nunneries to go to and/or when did that happen and how? 3. For the profoundly hearing impaired, is it easier to meditate without the distraction of sounds?

[@megumirogers8004]

i lkie what she is talking/thinking about. she is very honest person as well. this is one of my favourits from Bart Fhrman programs.

[@bewareofraccoons4266]

Definitely adding that book to the read list!

[@sebolddaniel]

I lived in Jazan Province Saudi Arabia where red-bearded Saudi Yemen men with decorative kanjar knives stuck in their belts sold goats in the market with their little boys who also ran around with kanjar knives in their belts and who drove white Toyota Hilux pick-up trucks carrying goats in the back. Yes, little boys drive pick-up trucks in the KSA. In the desert along the border there are silent ancient abandoned towns that you cannot find in history books. The war between Saudi Arabia and Yemen started when I was there and you could see and hear the fat old Scud missiles that the Houthies had launched northward into the mountains towards Abha. On my way out of the country I learned that Nick Robertson from CNN was staying at the Jazan Marriotte. I was hoping I might see him, but I never saw him. There was a kilometer long line at Saudi Immigration of Yemeni refugees whose houses had been destroyed, so I chatted with them in the Arabic I learned years ago in the Navy and took photos of these scruffy, shy men with colorful lazaras on their heads. Americans never see the world. CNN knows nothing about what is happening in the world

[@KGchannel01]

Great interview, love to see this more converational side of Dan!

[@cdbextremo]

I think back to my times in the desert in the Sinai and in Morocco. I think I was always taken by the visuals rather than sound. I think the sound of the desert took a far lesser place in my mind. I really enjoyed this discussion.

[@BobPearson-zr1mi]

I've been out many nights listening for owls experienced many very silent nights. There are degrees due to background environmental sounds, and the most silent of silent nights feels like a presence. It feels like the universe is listening.

[@tommcmillan2300]

Mention of Wadi Qelt brought back memories of when I visited it 25 years ago. A very memorable place and experience.

[@Robert-er5wq]

What I find so fascinating every time, is that joy isn't perceived to be human. 40:11 Resist temptation... What is human about resisting? 42:02 No! It is trying to going against the human nature. I agree that monasticism is a counter movement of urbanism - trying to find silence, escape social order etc. But it doesn't lead to human nature. It is in opposition to urbanism but just as artificial - with a distinctive misanthropic undercurrent.

[@1bengrubb]

does monasticism have to be a 'counter movement" ? Isn't it just a tool for the individual that makes no comment on urbanism or human nature? Or if it does arise from a counter movement perhaps the prevailing culture is so destructive to human nature that the monasticism might purify the culture---Perhaps you can say that Ghandi entered some form of monasticism for the benefit of human nature(ultimately)?

[@Robert-er5wq]

@@1bengrubb I think you do need some civilization around you to even make a difference between monasticism and just being some 'primitive' people. Hunter gatherers live all the time in nature. They don't need to move out into the countryside. It is not for nothing that some people started a 'back to nature' movement, which is monasticism without religious undercurrent. So, yes, monasticism is a countermovement.

[@1bengrubb]

@@Robert-er5wq but at 18:00 she says they were modeling themselves after Jesus...the purpose was a deeper spiritual connection. It looks like a counter movement but that's not the purpose. Perhaps I don't understand what your point is.

[@Robert-er5wq]

​@@1bengrubbI think there are three parts to it. A) I don't believe you understand my point and in so far I agree with you. B) apart from the question of monasticism - which has very little to do with Jesus, you argue that modelling oneself after Jesus cannot be a countermovement. But isn't Jesus whole point the radical turn-around? 'the world ends soon, you must radically change!' C) 18:40 she comes back to exactly my point: what do you need to concentrate? Being away from distractions, noise, temptations etc. These people sought a life away from society, the urban setting. I don't think any hunter-gatherer would ever think so, or farmers of that time who are happy to have won another season's battle against nature.

[@1bengrubb]

@@Robert-er5wq ok . Then I think another point you had was monasticism was bad or detrimental to society or something like that is that correct? If so how is it bad what does it do negative

[@Bhadradd]

Awesome session. I relate to the things Kim says. There's a lot (around going inward and deeply developing spiritually, by being alone, in solitude). Although not truly ascetic, I live alone in the hills, sometimes not seeing a person for several days at a time, and LOVE it.

[@robertwilcher9499]

"I love all waste and solitary places; where we taste the pleasure of believing what we see is boundless, as we wish our souls to be" - Percy Bysshe Shelley, Julian and Maddalo.

[@ov0Frito]

Greetings to everyone from Brazil 🇧🇷

[@MichaelYoder1961]

Great discussion! Thanks, Kim and Bart. "After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." Aldous Huxley

[@jacobravits8112]

Actually, Beit Jala is not Eastern Jerusalem. It's a village South of Jerusalem. I used to live in Gilo, a neighbourhood of Jerusalem, during the second intifada, with Beit Jala just across the street. They were shooting in our direction from Beit Jala every day. My wife and the kids had to run home from the park because they heard the whistling bullets near the ear. You could see tree trunks in the park stretched by bullets. Yeah, there were sounds in the desert.

[@joeyrufo]

28:01 OMG! OMG! I felt the same thing when I had a psychedelic experience while I was studying the works of Paul! When I thought about what he must have experienced in terms of what I experienced, it became clear to me that he very well could have had an experience that he would not have been able to distinguish from actually meeting Jesus! 🤯🤯🤯

[@kevinbalmer-dw2ms]

You guys are in the same type of house! Huge fan. I want to retire and waste away in a log cabin on the smoky mountains watching Bart Ehrman videos. If I had a week to live this is what I would do. Big fan. Thank you sir. @harmonicatheist

[@davepennington3573]

"Since the Six-Day War in 1967, Beit Jala has been under Israeli occupation." ha ha ha These people want you to forget.

[@klaasveenstra3943]

Great episode. Very inteesting topic.

[@jimjarnagin5344]

As a musician/composer and a "disciple" of both Pauline Oliveros' Deep Listening and Eliane Radique's drones I'm looking forward to reading Ms Haines-Eitzen's book. I was happy to see that links to the audio is available in the Kindle version. 🙂

[@accordioid]

I love this video series! As for sound - I hear ambient sound as a symphony. Always have. I am a musician, also do recording and concert sound, and love making and hearing human music at chosen times, but I find it a terrible distraction when it invades a moment unbidden. One natural sound, a mockingbird outside my house, is like that, going through his repertoire over and over all day long, like a friend who doesn't know when to stop talking. Another is the various tinnitus frequencies that have developed over seventy five years, though I can ignore them most of the time unless they get too loud. Music, though, has given me transcendent, sometimes ecstatic, moments, making it or hearing it, alone or with others. So has chanting "om". So has conversation. The ambient symphony carries a constant stream of speechless messages - reassuring, surprising, sometimes terrifying, sometimes inspiring. And sometimes there's a still, small voice ...

[@johnthompson2256]

In Hebrew the wilderness is Midbar. Mem/dalet/beit/reish. The root for this word is Dabar dalet/beit/reish. Which can mean a multitude of English words, like, word, work, doctrine, thing. Mem can symbolize water or people. My personal takeaway is the wilderness is “a sea of words,” or “ the people of the word.” The wilderness is a place to contemplate the word, or to do the word DBR. In cities there are too many distractions. Wilderness journeys can be for learning, strengthening, or exile. It is a great area of study for understanding Abraham in Genesis, or Lehi and his family in the Book of Mormon. Thanks.

[@thetopface]

As a southwestern fan of field recordings/sound art that got a heavy dose of Cage and Oliveros, I’m really excited to dig into Professor Haines-Eitzen’s work! I thought I was going off in a completely unrelated direction with my newer interest in religious studies, but apparently not!

[@jillmorgan7309]

Were they sitting in the same room? Look at the walls.

[@juligrlee556]

Every writer and thinker hears her own voice which she puts onto paper.

[@evelynmoyer9069]

In the great American Outback of central Nevada, many places are not polluted by manmade sounds. . . places where one can hear the sound that underlies all sound. . . the ground of our Being.

[@andrewmoyr8726]

True prayer should be understood first of all as the re-discovery and manifestation of the divine in us. Each of us is created according to our divine image and likeness.

[@matteofurlotti6211]

This sounds (no pun intended) like an interesting read!

[@Bjorn_Algiz]

Very interesting indeed to say the least 😊

[@pholosomore9831]

this was freakin awesome

[@BobPearson-zr1mi]

Silence is stupendous!

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@juligrlee556]

Isn't there a song called the sounds of silence. I see this as meaning the silence of the separation of people.

[@robertloader9826]

Best title of any KZbin video - ever!

[@ninatrabona4629]

Fasting, fevers, dreams, isolation, such as that used as punishment in prison, the dangerous isolation of the vision quest, or the ingestion of peyote seem to be ways of providing hallucinations and delusions to people who are not psychotic. They could be then be interpreted to foretell the future, or literally determine which path the questioner might follow.

[@ashishmantri3684]

Christian monks in desert ,this is actually true that many Christian monks etc were living in Arabia as well ,they and the Jews might have been the stepping stone for the rise of Islam. Maybe an Arabic Bible that might been translated which muhammad might have encountered in his trade fairs as he was not allowed to engage in trade as his father died while he was very young according to Arabic customs at that time. So these Christians might also be very different as they are away from the Rome and the west in place with Jews and other monotheists of Abraham whose existence ,even ishmaelites we know of .these might be the backdrop of 6 th century Arabia giving rise to Islam as shown by many inscriptions which read al-ilah as the father in christianity and Judaism. I am culturally a Hindu but history truly fascinates me , i have been delving into my own mythologies and our figures such as ram Krishna and buddha

[@juligrlee556]

The US government asked by decree that all stop at 3 pm wherever they were in local time, all put down their drink, put aside their plate and sit in silence for a minute to honor the dead who died in honor of those dead who fought for our constitution and to honor the god given rights we want for all women and men.

[@mikeharrison1868]

I lived on an island off the coast of New Zealand for a couple of years. it was possible to get to places where you couldn't hear a human-made sound for a couple of hours at a time. Thanks only interruption was a couple of Cessna flights a day to the other side of the island. I now live in the UK, and certainly anywhere in England it is impossible to ever get anywhere that remote.

[@KarenMcAda]

I’ve just been saved from a boring lunch break! 🎉

[@petergrant2561]

A more interesting discussion would be what is Mark's temptation of Jesus versus were really about.

[@juligrlee556]

this is a Memorial Day practice not a daily practice.

[@sammyhassan3797]

I expected to hear some kind of study results, evidence, or conclusions from ms Eitzin , She is fascinated with sound ! But it ( sounds) like no-one else is , i didn’t get it what is the connection with this podcast

[@andrewmoyr8726]

It has been said when you pray, you yourself must be silent. Let the prayer speak. But to achieve silence-this is, of all things, the hardest and the most decisive. Silence isn't merely negative-a pause between words; a temporary cessation of speech. It is a highly active, positive attitude. It is attentive alertness, of vigilance, and above all of listening. The word hezikas which is associated with those who worked on prayer and particularly this prayer of Jesus, are the men who attained hezikia; inner stillness. The hezikast is, par excellence, One Who Listens. He listens to the voice of prayer in his own heart and he understands that this voice is not his own. How can we learn to stop talking and start listening; instead of attempting to speak to a higher power, instead of making our own prayers-allowing God to speak to us. How, in fact, can we pass from a prayer expressed in words to a prayer of silence? There is a clue, I believe, in the words of St. John the Baptist, when he says "He must increase, but I must decrease" (John 3:30). It is in this sense that to pray is to be silent. "You yourself must be silent; let the prayer speak

[@aprylvanryn5898]

Tell me monasticism is a kink without telling me its a kink.

[@John.Flower.Productions]

_The Sonorous Desert: What Deep Listening Taught Early Christian Monks -- and What It Can Teach Us_ The rope is short indeed but in all fairness, The Bible has been extensively written about over the past few centuries.

[@tookie36]

36:28 it’s not a “thing”. No-thing. Pure Subject

[@kaarlimakela3413]

There would have been lions for them to watch out for even in those places.

[@1bengrubb]

18:00 what is driving this?". Talk about dancing around the whole point!! It's not about concentration or self-control it's about communion with God! People have a drive to meet with God That's it. Actually this just highlights a whole dimension of human experience that atheist have no insight into....spirituality.

[@rosca_21]

Spiritual people find communion with God in different ways, that don't involve going into the desert and isolate themselves from the world. It was an ascetic interpretation of spirituality that emphasized self-control and abstinence from worldly pleasures that led the anchorites into the wilderness.

[@Bobrapbahizi]

I thought they 29:32 were looking at

[@luizr.5599]

Santo Antão is like Saint Big Dumb

[@trilithon108]

A good deal of it is about 'dropping out', allowing the senses of the being. Early cave monastics were waiting on the Presence of God, and that was more likely to occur with fewer distractions. The mind would quieten, breathing deepen, and by grace, the Divine intuited and felt. 😊

[@jcbnyc2009]

Wasn't it Elijah that found God in the silence? Promising that it didn't cone up.

[@marshalldarcy7423]

The light eternal is a light internal and is knowable. All mysticism is an approximation of death and Jesus was a mystic.

[@Sportliveonline]

is it just making something out of nothing like a painting

[@cardcarryingfool01]

if a tree falls in the imagination, does it make a sound?

[@1bengrubb]

I think that's called tinnitus...

[@Sportliveonline]

so what is God and how did God get there ?

[@1bengrubb]

It's funny her whole focus and investigation is sound and silence.... And that has nothing to do with a monks focus. At 39:00 bart asks is the goal to find as much absence of noise? In fact she's a little frustrated with this monks lack of discussion of silence or solitude. It's like hello that's not the goal! Revelation from God is the goal. If she had read these individuals writings before and after their solitude she might have an idea what they were doing. I think her investigation to silence and sound is a little interesting... But if her book doesn't have more significant insights than this interview....umm..

[@bmt-zo1ue]

How do you sign up to be a monk???!😉

[@1bengrubb]

Is that like becoming a chef? Do you have to become a fryer first?

[@declankelly9829]

While the sound of silence can teach us much I suspect that too much of it could drive one insane. I would not like to spend time with any of those monks who lived in the desert 24/7. I would also wonder about their intellectual, emotional and sexual development, when not confronted with what I would call the facts of life experienced by living in busy cities. For example... how would one of these monks (and where are the monkesses?) begin to understand LGBT+ people? They would not see any of this culture in the desert and whatever religion they were following, whatever books they were reading, would surely condemn such people. The theology and spirituality they would be writing around sexuality would be frightening I imagine, as indeed many of the writings of monks were. They could talk all day about God but they couldn't talk about sexuality. This discussion is certainly educational. It tells us why no liberating theology ever came from the desert... from a place with no human sound. No Bart Ehrman ever came from a desert. Please Bart... stay out of the desert!

[@aprylvanryn5898]

You can't fool me. I know Adam and Eve were never in genesis. Peter and Phil were

[@user-wc7ku7ud3e]

تحياتي🌹🌹

[@terencewinters2154]

John climacus ladder of divine ascent ascetic desert focus on virtue in an age where "pleasure is the bait of evil " . God is there and according to Jesus account so is the Devil. :" WIND ". AND THE WINDS OF WAR. ' And God wasnt in the wind' . Silence is a reception place even an ear . An eeriness. To listen and to hear are 2 different things. And now we have the " acoustic storm ". Merton called this monasticism maybe. " too much greek muscularity " ie conquering the flesh.

[@chriswilcocks8485]

Love barts books and his videos but why does he have to keep flogging courses not to mention really expensive holidays. How much more money does he want.

[@jonmustang]

This was enjoyable, but I’m actually a little stunned that the scholars seem to know nothing about the much older tradition of monasticism and sensory denial in Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Brahmanism, etc. It’s not even that complicated to figure out, just look at any other religious culture and ask them why they do it, lol. The world didn’t start with Abraham

[@jonmustang]

In a nutshell, the discovery in deep states of meditation is that the five senses and the creation of thoughts in the mind are something like distractions in our ability to perceive even deeper aspects of our consciousness. That’s why meditators go to caves; to more easily access their inner world and decondition themselves from the distraction of societal identity, thoughts, and bodily sensations

[@Jd-808]

Are you really stunned that a discussion of Christian monks wasn’t about Hinduism?

[@bewareofraccoons4266]

​@@Jd-808😂 I was about to say the same thing.

[@Diatribal_Warfare]

​@@Jd-808Excellent response 🤘🤘

[@tookie36]

Plausible deniability for those in the west. They can say they are working on something unique if you disregard 1000s of years of eastern practices

[@ElkoJohn]

Jesus said to the gathering: Truly I say, some of you standing here today will not taste death until you have seen the (Messianic) Kingdom arrive with power. Six days later, Jesus took Peter, James, and John onto a high mount where they could be alone and hidden. Then the three saw Jesus completely transformed before their eyes. His white cloak was bright and shining like sunlight reflected from snow. Then Elijah and Moses appeared before them and began talking to Jesus. Peter and the other two were afraid - thinking that the end time was near. Then the shadow of a huge cloud passed over and covered them. They heard a voice say: This is my Beloved Son. Listen to Him. When the disciples looked down from the cloud - suddenly Jesus was alone. As they came down from the mount, Jesus told them not to tell anyone what they had seen until after the Son of Man is raised from the dead. (Mk.9:1-9)

[@jordondaniels9276]

"Something cellularly got in there about hearing sounds" Ask her if she thinks Palestinians are human.

[@robertdargan1113]

She seems a very low level scholar to me. Almost projecting her own experience onto the desert monks, who's psychi could not conceive where on earth she's coming from. She seems to approach the subject emotionally, which is the last thing the desert fathers would've done. She's feeling her way into the subject - a very feminine way of behaving - which is the opposite culturally & psychologically that ancient arab scholars or men of the desert would have behaved.

[@stuckinlodi100]

Holy mackerel Bart is as good as Megan!

[@user-bw1kz8eg3l]

This woman talks about insignificant things as it they were very significant. Very shallow.

[@1bengrubb]

I had a little difficulty following her myself. But I tried to imagine what she was investigating. There's a saying that you don't know what you don't know. Perhaps since monks want silence to gain revelation perhaps she's trying to figure out what the revelation was in silence. I suppose you and I would have to read her book to maybe better understand her. We might be missing something

[@user-bw1kz8eg3l]

Bart is a terrible interviewer although he is a great interviewee. I am deeply disappointed whenever I listen to his interviewing people.

[@fjibreel]

why not interview a native Palestinian, whose family has been there since the time of the first Christian monks, instead of this "Israeli" with Colonial European ancestry?

[@1bengrubb]

Welllll....Jesus was a Jew....

[@fjibreel]

@@1bengrubbthere are Palestinian Christian’s

[@Wolfkiller]

​@@1bengrubb He was a Palestinian jew, not a European jew

[@sammyhassan3797]

How is that lady ended up on this podcast in relation with Miss quoting Jesus and or early Christianity it doesn’t make any sense. I will not give a thumb down out of respect to the great Bart erman very disappointed for the last 40 minutes

[@1bengrubb]

It's early Christianity right? And something Bart was interested in..... Definitely different

[@johnthekeane]

I'm sorry, esoteric nonsense, .. my first time bugging out early. Peace.