Christianity's Fatal Problem Revisited

In this video I give a summary of what I think is the most powerful argument against the Christian god's existence.
If you want to see a good back and forth detailed argument I have with a Christian please read the thread I have with "Drew Johnson" in the comment section below. It's about 28 replies at this time. Just an fyi, I am pretty rude and passive/aggressive in my replies to him (which I regret) but my argumentation is still valid. Take a read and decide for yourself.

[@AG-nu8ix]

Thank you for your Blessing videos , especially universalist Christian , One GOD & One LORD Only Not three or trinity ! . . Deut. 6:4 . 😊

[@askfortheoldpaths]

"Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” - II Timothy 2 NKJV There is nothing new under the sun!

[@JesusChristsavedmylife]

I’ll pray for you brother. I love you.

[@human.imagination]

No idea what a preregistration is and aren’t a student of the Bible but man… you’re are making some pretty interesting arguments

[@huntsimple9527]

Recently I have come across this channel and a few others where folks have denounced Jesus Christ after "following" Him for years and years. One thing I found in common among these folks who have denounced Christ after "following" Him is they are very sensitive to any comment that points to the notion that they may not have truly known Christ if they claimed to "walk" with Him but now deny Him. Seems like at their initial denouncing of Christ, they typically throw cold water on the notion they may have never known Him. So......... If you once knew Him and worshipped Him for "years", but now you say He does not exist, then does it not become obvious you never knew Him? How could you have truly known and worshipped Someone that you now claim does not exist? This could be the case, they never knew him. But....... Scripture (2 Peter 2:20-21) is clear that some people do have the knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ and even with that knowledge, they will fall away from Him. So we know this type of person exists, one who may have known Christ yet denounces Him later. The same scripture also tells us that if you did once know Christ and you denounce it, your future is very, very dark. In fact, it says that if you once knew Him and walk away, you are more dark than someone who has never known Him at all. Think on that......

[@gintorino4616]

Some Christians have come across KZbin channels like Theramintrees Nonstampcollector and MythVision. All of those channels make good points against the theories of religions. It's up to you to watch them and have earlylife crisis like i had in 2021.

[@CarlDowson-sm9qj]

jesus completed everything he said he would do he brought the kingdom of heaven a spiritual kingdom its finished now we have received the free gift of eternal life form God blessed are they that keep and believe the testimony of Jesus and the word of God 🙏

[@doriesse824]

I don't know where you are now with all this, but have you listened to some of the really good Preterist channels that prove all these things certainly did happen just as promised, and exactly when promised? It could make all the difference to you. They will also explain who we are and how/ why we are here, what this timeline is, and so much more.

[@TheBibleFulfilled]

So when Jesus said he is a door, or a vine, or bread... Do you believe he meant that literally?

[@wantingtolearn2732]

After watching this I did think of either/or fallacies. This is not meant to be offensive but something to be aware of. The bible itself shows that it is possible for a prophecy to come and go without realising it. The example that comes to mind is Matthew 17:10-13. I am in agreement with the time statements of the new testament as first century fulfillment, but we need to be cautious that we have understood correctly what was meant, otherwise we find ourselves saying either God doesn't exist or is untrustworthy. The Apostles seemed dispondent when Jesus died. There was even disbelief by one in particular of his resurrection. Imagine a possible scenario after Jesus died. Some might have said either he was the Messiah but God was untrustworthy in fulfilling his promising through him, or, he was not the Messiah. Compare Mark 15:29-32. My caution is that we could misunderstand statements made in the Bible and then limit ourselves to either/or fallacies. Again, no disrespect meant by these comments.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

@wantingtolearn2732 No offense taken! The reason I am confident in my conclusions on this topic is because I believe in the scientific method. I always try to find the brightest opposition to my position and then see if they can poke holes in my conclusions. I never stop doing this even when I am highly certain my position is true just because you never know if you missed something that someone will point out to you. Hence, part of the reason I am talking to you. The other part of course is that I hope you will be convinced I am telling you the truth. I think it is always good to have an open mind and question everything. So I appreciate your comments and I LOVE pushback or people playing "devil's advocate". I was away for 5 days on a mini-vacation with family and just got back this evening so please excuse me for being exhausted (turned 50 this year). In regards to your comment... This is a common (and really the main) tactic I see Christians use. Denying that passages really mean what they say. Christians HAVE to do this otherwise the logical conclusions are inescapable and devastating for them. With regard to Matt 17:10-13 I don't see any either/or fallacy here. I would like to point out that this is an easy claim for the gospel writer to make and proves absolutely nothing. Most biblical scholars (almost all of them) believe the gospels were written after 70 CE. Why is that? One main reason is because of the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21. It is very powerful (and quite convenient) for the gospel writers to claim that their Jesus predicted the temple's destruction when in reality he said no such thing. This will fool those who are either simple-minded or too eager to believe the story for various reasons (guilt over their "sins", promise of eternal life, etc..). Following a god who cannot communicate clearly and then condemns people eternally for it when they hold him accountable for what he said is an abhorrent god. I hope you can see why that would be so. Sorry for the late reply.

[@wantingtolearn2732]

@@escapingchristianity8765 thanks for reply. Hope you had a good holiday. I appreciate that there is a belief that the gospels and Revelation were written after the events to make them appear as prophecy. What I look at is the continuation prophecy too. For example; ancient Babylon not being rebuilt and also Babylon the great (Jerusalem, most importantly the temple) never to be rebuilt. I will be 50 next year. If you find yourself feeling more tired with age, have you tried earthing/grounding? Clint Ober has some good videos on this. Why was Moses told to remove his sandals? Because the energy would travel through his body better from the ground. We can create a negative charge by doing this. Our bodies as we get older may struggle to maintain their negative/alkaline design. So grounding helps. Drinking alkaline water with food, particularly if we are consuming acidic food, helps to stop our stomach producing sodium bicarbonate which leaves hydrochloric acid as a by product that needs to be removed. Green foods help as chlorophyll is almost identical to the heme molecule of hemoglobin. This helps us make red blood cells easier as I understand it.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

@@wantingtolearn2732 Thanks for the health tips! Definitely trying to eat better as I age.

[@chrisalt8543]

Hi, looking at Job chapters 1 and 2, you see that God is Elohim in Hebrew and YHWH "LORD in a conversation. Now look at John 8:44 and look at what Jesus says. “You are of >>>>>your father the devil, He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth

[@drewjohnson4811]

Your argument is based on the premise the resurrection and judgment would be visible to those who were left here. If the tribulation and fall of Jerusalem happened, the resurrection happened. The prophecies are giving us visible physical events to confirm the events we couldn't see.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

Luke, Paul and Matthew definitely believed the resurrection and second coming would be an event that would be visible to all. I have already explained this in the comment section of this video. Please see my reply to David Andrews for that explanation.

[@drewjohnson4811]

@@escapingchristianity8765 Looking at the response to David Andrews, just an observation, it seems you may be reading the New Testament disconnected from the Old Testament and applying a scope beyond the Old Testament prophecies like Joel, Malachi, Isaiah, Daniel, etc. The NT writers are quoting those prophecies because they were to be fulfilled in that generation. The scope was the fall of Jerusalem.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

​@@drewjohnson4811 How am I reading the NT "disconnected" from the OT? In my reply to David Andrews I talk about Luke 17:26-30 & Matt 24:37-39 which are clearly NT writers quoting the OT. Those passages say that all the wicked will PHYSICALLY DIE at the second coming. This clearly did not happen. (caps for emphasis only) You didn't address any of the arguments I presented in my response to David Andrews. You just ignored my arguments (like Christians always do) and claimed I don't understand. Joel 2 & 3 are not talking about Roman armies. You read that into the text because full-preterist teachers have told you that's what it means and you want to believe them. Same thing goes for Isaiah, Malachi and Daniel. You are reading things into those texts that don't exist. Eisegesis. Malachi 3 & 4 is not about the first century. The writer of that book actually thinks Elijah is going to return from heaven after being taken up in a chariot in the OT and the Law of Moses will be restored in Israel. The reason you think it means something different is because the NT writers quoted those texts and misapplied them to John the Baptist and tried to use them for the Christian religion they started. Same thing with Daniel. Daniel 9:24-27 cannot fit any timeline because it was a lie. Christians have tried desperately for 2,000 years to make Daniel's 70 weeks work but you can't because the writer of Daniel was not telling the truth. Daniel 12:1 is a continuation of Daniel 11:29-45. This is during the Maccabean revolt (165 BCE) and this is the time period when Daniel was written. Many biblical scholars agree on this. That's why Dan 12:1 says "at that time" which is a continuation of Dan 11:29-45 which is obviously referring to Antiochus Epiphanes which the writer of Daniel knew about when writing his book. This is why the authors details are so good and precise in Dan 11 but the author butchers Dan 12 because he's trying to "prophesy" but he was obviously wrong. His god did not show up. Btw, 200 years later is not "at this time" like full-preterists try to claim with 70 CE. Isaiah 65 & 66 is the same thing. The author of Isaiah is simply saying in these 2 chapters that he believes that one day his god will come back and make Israel the centerpiece of the world. All the Gentiles and Jews will come to worship and keep the Sabbath along with the Law of Moses forever and people will live long lives and the corpses of the wicked will burn and be a reminder. This has nothing to do with 70 CE or the "end of the world". You are reading stuff you have been told into all these books. You are probably not going to listen to me. Christians almost never do. But I tried. I'm sorry sir but you believe in a god that does not exist. I wish you well.

[@drewjohnson4811]

@@escapingchristianity8765 I am addressing your points. I'm just pointing to the root of what's causing the misapplication of the scope of those NT passages. To hold your view, you have to disconnect the OT prophecies about the tribulation and the scope outlined there. Daniel 12 is not about Antiochus. Secular scholars say that, but they'll also tell you Daniel 11:36-45 through Daniel 12 doesn't actually fit Antiochus. They'll say that was Daniel's failed attempt at real prophecy. That explanation is actually their failed attempt at making their view fit the text. Also, the way they handle Daniel 9 is 100X worse than Christians, but you've accepted that. At least Christians can show why there is a 40-yr gap there. The missing 3 1/2 years are prophesied in several places along with the events that would happen in that time period. Secular scholars' starting points and segments a purely contrived to force-fit their view. Malachi 3&4 are not about the first century? People being judged in a "furnace" AFTER the Lord comes to the temple. It's pretty obvious, and Joel and Malachi are parallel texts. It seems you're underestimating the importance of the fact that a generation would bear the judgment of the Old Covenant. That's why Jesus referenced Isaiah 65:6-7 when pronouncing judgment in Matt 23:30-36. It's the same generation prophesied in Isaiah 53:8. Isaiah 53:8 (NASB20) By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for HIS GENERATION, who considered That He was cut off from the land of the living For the wrongdoing of my people, to whom the BLOW was due? The "blow" was the national destruction that had been decreed. When you knock out the foundation of the New Testament, it's easy to throw it out, but you miss why the NT even exists in the first place. For instance, who are the 11 "kings" written about in Daniel 7. If Daniel is writing history as it pertains to Greece and the Maccabean revolt, who were the 11 Greek kings he was looking back on?

[@escapingchristianity8765]

@@drewjohnson4811 You keep saying I'm "disconnecting" the OT and NT. My last response proved I wasn't doing that. You ignored Luke 17:26-30 and Matt 24:37-39 again. You have no answer for it. You have no answer for the Greek word "Oikoumene" which proves Luke thought all men (not just Jews) would physically die at the second coming. At the end of the day you are going to believe what you want because you are not emotionally able to bear what I'm saying. Answer the specific arguments I presented in my response to David Andrews otherwise I know you are not serious. You are just going to believe what you want. Daniel 11:29-45 is obviously about Antiochus Epiphanes. All scholars agree on this. It is well known that he desecrated the Jewish temple around 170 BCE which is described in those verses. The king of the north (Antiochus Epiphanes) never changes in Dan 11:29-45. So when Dan 12:1 says "at that time" it is clear that the writer of Daniel, who is writing this book in the 2nd century BCE (not 70 CE 230 years later which is not "at this time") thinks the end is coming imminently. But it obviously didn't happen. All the other passages you mentioned in your last response are you reading ideas into them that don't exist. The texts do not say that. Re-read them without your biases. Once again, answer the specific arguments I presented in my response to David Andrews. These arguments prove the Christian god does not exist. You have avoided them every time I've asked so I can't take you seriously. And don't give me some BS about those passages don't mean what they clearly say. If you are gonna do that you are obviously dishonest. At the end of the day I know what your problem is. It's the same problem all religious people have. You are afraid to live in a universe where your god does not exist because you won't know how to handle life. And in your cowardice you try to impose your views on other people and if they don't agree with you you condemn them to eternal suffering in your spite. Pathetic. Stop being a coward and face life. I'm sorry for my harsh words but I'm tired of Christian garbage fucking people up.

[@susanpotgieter5196]

Unveiled Mind on youtube might give you new insight ... that what we were made to believe did not happen perhaps did... they give evidence with very good questions. Enjoy the journey

[@susanpotgieter5196]

Mind Unveiled on KZbin not the other way round sorry

[@artemiyf9078]

@@susanpotgieter5196 another schoolboy philosophizing

[@ericstewart9742]

Hey Robert, thanks for the info. I watched your final video on why there is hope for an afterlife. I’ve had a session with a medium who contacted my recently deceased father. He gave her tons of evidence that it was him coming through to her, which she relayed to me. None of this evidence could possibly be gathered from an internet search. I did not divulge any information to her, but just quietly listened. The session was over the phone. She was in another state. Also, my deceased stepbrother came through and gave irrefutable evidence that it was indeed him. Subsequently, my wife and some friends have had their own phone sessions with her, and with equally valid results. She was one one the many mediums who were tested at the University or Arizona and was determined to have the ability.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

Thanks for sharing your comment. I definitely think an afterlife is possible but whether it exists or not I don't think it can be proven. There have been many mediums/psychics that have been shown to be frauds. I'm not saying the one you contacted it is. I don't know that person. I do know that some of the fraudulent ones that have engaged in that profession have been very clever. Once again, I'm not saying that's what happened with you. I don't know. For me personally, I've decided not to worry too much about whether there is an afterlife or not. We will all find out eventually. I want to focus on the life that I know that I have (this one on Earth) and make the most of it without being enslaved by religious, political or any other dogmas. My goal with the most recent videos on my channel has been to free people from the religious dogmas (and what I am convinced are lies) of the first century Christians and to challenge them to think critically in all matters. Those Christians probably sincerely believed their god was real but I'm convinced he wasn't. Question everything that cannot be decisively proven. I firmly believe it will serve a person well in life. I wish you well Eric.

[@ericstewart9742]

@@escapingchristianity8765 I’m of the same attitude and mindset. You’re doing the best you can all the time and so am I, in trying to discern the truth. I admire your striving in this regardless of the personal cost. I wish more people were like you and me.

[@mastermasonhiramabiff2538]

Great video, thanks for the wealth of wisdom

[@qwerty-so6ml]

@@ericstewart9742 Angel yoked with a demon. The demon keeps record of everything you do, say, feel. Medium used in Satan's network to maintain their illusion. Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.

[@justanother240]

Funny how you reach the exact opposite conclusion of most full preterists. The fulfillment of biblical prophecies is the strongest evidence for the God of Christianity. I know full preterism is not a popular position, and perhaps that is why you didn't address it directly in the video, but if you had good reasons to refute full preterism, you should've at least outline the arguments in this video instead of jumping to your conclusions.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

@justanother240 I used to be a full-preterist before I de-converted. I do give arguments for why full-preterism cannot work. You can find them in my 3rd and 4th to last videos on my channel called "Christianity's Fatal Problem" and the addendum video. They were published on June 29 and 30 of last year. If you want to skip the videos you can go to the comment section of the last video I made for my channel called "Christianity's Fatal Problem Revisited". Scroll down through the comments and you will see a comment by a "drewjohnson4811" with 29 replies (currently). This is a back and forth debate with a full-preterist and might answer some of your questions. Pay special attention to the comments I make about the Greek word "oikoumene" as well as Luke 17:26-30 & Matt 24:37-39. Physical bodies could not continue to exist after the first century and the fact you and I have one proves the NT writers were not telling the truth. EDIT: I just realized that is my video you commented on so just scroll down and look at my replies to Drew.

[@justanother240]

@@escapingchristianity8765 thanks for the response. I read the thread and I believe Drew answered you adequately regarding the scope of judgement. This is my observation: If you refuse to date the Gospels as pre 70 AD and thereby nullifying the prophecy, we will just have to agree to disagree. Again, thank you for pointing me to that thread.

[@mcgragor1]

@@justanother240 Good point, I read the thread as well and thought Drew's answers made sense, especially since he brought out that in Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse it does say that some people would be carried away as slaves, so his statements making it seem like he believed the "whole Roman world" would be judged/destroyed would be a major contradiction by one of the most researched and precise authors of the New T, thus, its probably hyperbole on Luke's part or something else, but its worth studying out. The issue of Noah's flood doesn't hit me as contradictory, I think in context its the surprise and devastation of it, as He (Jesus) uses many parables that make it clear its Jerusalem being the main target, though historically many towns and such were also burned throughout. I think he has a good point on Pauline uses of the body etc... something I want to study, but also agree with you on when the gospels were written. There's a guy with a channel called "Cold Case Christianity", he was/is an actual cold case detective and was an atheist for years. He set out to prove Christianity wrong, but ended up becoming a Christian. I'm pretty sure he's dated all of the books before 70 and he's not even a Preterist.

[@ayoolukoga9829]

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Psalms 90:4

[@mcgragor1]

Hey Robert, you mentioned you debated with Preston on his channel. Any chance you re-call which video or videos I can find these discussions? Thanks

[@benabraham8607]

If God postponed Noah's time judgment for 120 years ? Why can't he postpone AD 70 to somewhere we can't find.

[@nasesplace]

Remember that Jesus is suppose to separate the wheat and tare in his second coming and the Jesus in me does that. It is simple. The wheat and tares grow up together and then at death,our death, the tare is burned in judgement,our flesh which dies under the first covenant, but the soul goes on to live again in a new body. We are born again to a new body and family/reincarnation. God does exist and has answers for us. We need to hear each other out and have a heart of God to understand. Love you

[@artemiyf9078]

that is an interesting interpretation..

[@dylansaus]

You mentioned once that Paul could be on hallucinogens, have you read the Immortality key? It's about ancient greeks doing psychedelics in the city of Eleusis. Then the hypothesis is that paleo christians took over this ritual. Any thoughts on this?

[@qwerty-so6ml]

Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.

[@DefeatTheWokeEstablishment]

What will the consequences be for you for leading people away from their savior? I shutter to think.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

There will be none because the Christian god does not exist. Your response is typical of some religious people that I come across. You lash out in your anger and fury, as your comment clearly shows, because your false hope has been exposed by someone. And because you are desperate to believe in your heaven and your god you show just how dark and perverse your heart is by wishing eternal suffering on the person that has exposed the lie you believe in. You are filthy and disgusting and the sad part is you don't even realize it about yourself because you have masked it with religion. But your true nature slips out and is exposed by your comment.

[@james-cq3mi]

@@escapingchristianity8765 I am one that still has faith in the Son, and was wondering if I could ask you a question. Do you believe in any God at this time? You said that you only believe in physical science that can be proven. Is that correct? I followed a few of your earlier videos, and really enjoyed them. Your teaching style was interesting and showed tremendous humility and love for your fellow man. After reading some of the threads with your back and forth with some of the folks, I hope you don't mind, but I worry about your well being, and dealing with depression. One thing that science has shown us is that somehow science has not been able to create any kind of life form. After discovering the DNA sequencing code in every living cell, secular science is starting to back peddle on Darwin's evolution theory .

[@escapingchristianity8765]

@@james-cq3mi I will try my best to give you my personal definition of what constitutes a valid epistemology for life and results in some sort of possible “knowledge” in this earthly life. I am not super well-versed in these philosophical terms so please forgive me if I butcher my explanation. My epistemology is simply based on logic. Call it analytics. Or evidence. Or data. I see this as the only thing that matters when looking to know the truth about something. The enemy of this is emotion. I am very anti-emotion in everything because I have observed the negative effects that emotion has had, not only on myself, but other people throughout 50 years of my life. It is always a hindrance when not backed by sound logic. I despise emotion. I admire facts. It’s that simple. If you look at anyone who is successful over other people in life it is because they have used logic to outsmart and outcompete others. And the people that always lose are the dumber ones who rely on emotion or simply don’t have the logic skills of the smarter person. To me this is an undeniable fact of life when you simply observe people. You asked me, “Do you believe in any god?” My answer is, “I don’t know if a god or afterlife exists.” I am officially an agnostic and will be until I die because the data/evidence/logic is inconclusive as far as I can tell. But I hope there is something better than this life after we die. I am convinced the Christian god cannot exist for many reasons. Here’s just a few: 1) Luke 17:26-30 and Matt 24:37-39. Everyone who was considered wicked did not physically die in the first century. It says EVERYONE would die. 2) 1 Cor 15:50, Rom 7:18,23-25, Rom 8:18-23, Rom 8:29, Phil 3:21. Paul believes physical bodies will not exist anymore when the kingdom of god arrives (because they are corrupt in his mind) and a perfect state will happen with perfect bodies (1 Cor 15:51-53) 3) These things are promised to happen in the first century generation Matt 10:23, Matt 16:27-28, Matt 24:34, Mark 8:38-9:1, Mark 13:30, Luke 9:26-27, Luke 21:32, 1 John 2:18, 1 Peter 4:7, James 5:8, Heb 10:37 etc… (more than 100 hundred of these clear statements) 4) A perfect state with no more death, pain, suffering did not happen in the first century. Corrupt physical bodies did not cease to exist. This makes the writers of the New Testament liars. This is very simple unbreakable logic and why I get angry with religious people in my comment sections sometimes. They are dishonest and cowardly. They are driven by emotion. I have never seen one give me a LOGIC based answer. They always resort to their feelings. The truth does not care about feelings and only those who are courageous can face that fact. You said you are concerned about my well-being. I appreciate your concern and thank you. You are right to be concerned. I am now a nihilist. I don’t think life has any inherent meaning at all. You must give it meaning because there is no over-arching meta-narrative like Christianity, Islam or other religions try to claim. I struggle with finding meaning and purpose in my life today. I am very depressed. That’s okay. I would rather have the truth than a beautiful lie that comforts me with false promises and keeps me prisoner my whole life. People driven by emotion cannot understand my last comment. They think you should embrace a lie if it helps you function better. I can never do that. The idea is repulsive to me. I wish you well and I thank you for your comment. Don’t worry too much about me. Everything is state of mind. When I get super-depressed I remind myself it is a choice and I can say no. I am not my thoughts or feelings. I am simply an observer. A sojourner. Along for a ride.

[@james-cq3mi]

@@escapingchristianity8765 Thanks for your reply. In a way, you remind me of my brother. He had an exceptionally high IQ, and struggled with depression. He is gone now, and I wish I would have developed a better relationship with him. In your podcast web page you wrote " thanks to two gentlemen you learned that the Christian God cannot exist." You also used the word "epistemology" in your comment to me. Is one of those folks name Anthony Magnabosco, or Peter Boghossian? I have watched many videos of their street epistemology and some on collage campuses. The best one was put on by an ex-Mormon turned atheist, who brought in Anthony Magnabosco to deprogram another ex-Mormon friend of his, turned universalist, full Preterist, no hell, Christian. I would love to get your reaction to that video. Poor Anthony was beside himself and unable to continue, even though this Christian pleaded for him to continue.

[@james-cq3mi]

@@escapingchristianity8765 Do you know Anthony Magnabosco or Peter Boghossian who are street epistemology folks. Are they the two gentlemen that directed you away?

[@CMGigas1803]

Hi Robert. First thank you for your videos and work. I wanted to get some of your thoughts if you don't mind? First, I think we would agree that Paul does not seem to have the local Jerusalem destruction and judgement in mind when he is writing about the expectation of the immediate end? This is the final coming, resurrection, and judgement in Paul's eyes on all people and nations as you have pointed out. Paul clearly says he expects this in HIS lifetime and for his followers to prepare. When we get to Mark and the gospels there appears to be a knowledge of the 70 a.d. destruction of Jerusalem not yet known to Paul. The abomination of desolation and the encircling of Jerusalem etc. in Luke. The first question is do you think that the gospel writers combined this known local event involving the Roman seige in 70 a.d with Paul's previous expectation of a second and final coming? For example the first verses of Matthew 24 list events that Josephus likely describes as happening in the first century (this generation). Then Matthew describes a coming event that will be worse than any thing before or ever will be (comparable to the flood). I think we both agree that this can't be only the local destruction of Jerusalem. Also all eyes did not see and all nations did not mourn when the temple was destroyed in 70 a.d. (many partial preterist apologists describe this as Jesus coming in some sense but not physically) Do you believe the gospel writers deliberately mixed Paul's imminent final coming of Jesus belief with the information they knew about 70 a.d., creating the confused and endlessly debated meaning of these passages? Finally, when Christian apologists take the partial preterist route to account for the first generation time statements what verses do they have left for the final coming? This leads them to choose a verse like Matthew 24:36 as an escape route. Again, I would really appreciate any of your additional thoughts.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

@Chris May Hello Chris. Thank you for the compliment about my videos. I really appreciate that. Let me try to answer your questions if I can. Hopefully I can be of help. (I will make a second reply to you which is a TLDR that answers your questions more directly since this post was too long. You can just skip to that reply if you would like.) First off, I don’t know how many of my videos you have watched after my deconversion but I think there is roughly about a dozen. Just to summarize, I was a Christian for 32 years and a full-preterist the final 18 months of that. I had to adopt the full-preterist view in my final 18 months as a Christian when I realized the eschatological time statements could not be escaped/ignored/manipulated. A person has to become a full-preterist if they are going to be honest with the text and “save” Christianity. This is what I was attempting to do in my desperation the final 18 months I was a Christian. I didn’t want to lose my Jesus (emotional comfort) and promise of heaven and everything being okay in the afterlife. Of course most of Christianity has not been honest with the texts so the time statements have been no problem for them. They simply deny what the texts say. Any person who does this, and Christianity has done this for 2,000 years, is not interested in finding out what is true. This is obvious and needs no more explanation. Christianity cares nothing about the truth. This was horrifying for me to learn that I had been a part of something like that for so long not realizing it. Even worse, thinking I was defending the truth the whole time! So embarrassing for me but I digress. The reason why I have focused mainly on full-preterist arguments in my deconversion videos is because I see full-preterists as the only threat to fooling people. They have very clever arguments. They find ways to try and honor the time statements. I held the collective body view (aka Covenant Eschatology) the final 18 months I was a Christian. This view is championed by people like Max King, Don Preston and William Bell. You can find William Bell and Don Preston’s full-preterists videos on their KZbin channels. They are intelligent men with convincing arguments if you are not careful. They fooled me for 18 months. But I guess I am pretty easy to fool because I was a Christian for 32 years and far more brilliant men than me have seen through the Christian religion immediately. Paul mentions nothing about a localized destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE as being an all-encompassing representation of the second coming. The idea is absurd and 99.9% of Christians that have lived would scoff at it. That’s why they consider full-preterists heretics. The irony is that it is the full-preterists who are the only ones who are trying to honor the time statements. But in order to do this they must deny what other parts of the NT say about new bodies and a new universe being literal which is clearly how Paul and Luke understood it. By the way, I was called a heretic multiple times by Christians in my final 18 months when I was a full-preterist for claiming Jesus had already came. It really seems to piss Christians off. Why? The answer seems obvious to me. They want to escape the harsh realities of this life and they want a utopia and full-preterism denies that by claiming Jesus already came. Paul believed physical bodies would not exist anymore at the second coming of Jesus. As far as I can tell Paul was somewhat Platonic in how he viewed the world. He saw physical matter as corrupt, inferior. He was also proto-gnostic in my view. He talks about “mysteries” (Strong’s G3466 musterion) in Rom 11:25, 1 Cor 2:7, 4:1, 13:2, 14:2, 15:51, Eph 3:3-4&9, Col 1:26 etc. Paul uses the word an alarming number of times. Paul also talks about “revelations” (Strong’s G602 apokalupsis) in 1 Cor 14:26, Gal 1:11-12, Gal 2:2, 2 Cor 12:1&7, Eph 1:17, Eph 3:3. In my opinion it is not a false equivalence to say that this is the same type of language used by mystery cults all over the Roman Empire in the first century. The first century Christians were a mystery cult. An apocalyptic cult. They had their initiations (baptism) just like the mystery cults. You can see the mystery language used even in the gospels in Matt 13:11, Mark 4:11, Luke 8:10. Mark is probably the earliest gospel and the parable of the sower in Mark 4 has mystery cult written all over it. So do many other parables. Jesus is speaking in parables to keep the “mysteries” hidden that only initiates to the religion would receive access too. This was a staple of mystery cults during that time. This is rich with irony because early Christianity was almost certainly proto-gnostic in my opinion and the texts tell you that if you just read them and pay attention. Yet Christianity managed to stamp that out of the religion over the first few centuries so that they could insist that their Jesus had an earthly life and was not just some vision in Paul or the other apostles’ minds. Even if there was an apocalyptic prophet named Jesus in the early first century running around Palestine he did not tell people the truth. The glorious transformation of his followers, as well as the universe into a perfect state, did not happen in the first century as promised. Just to be clear, I think there probably was a Jesus running around Palestine and Paul thought he saw him in visions later on after his death. But he was hallucinating. I do think the mythicist position has some merit to it but it seems less likely to me. If you are not familiar with the mythicist position they simply believe that Paul (as the earliest writer of the NT) hallucinated Jesus and the gospel writers created an earthly life for him to sell the religion. Whether this Jesus had an earthly life or not doesn’t matter to me. What matters is the things that were promised did not happen in the first century time frame which exposes Christianity for the lie that it is. I think the synoptic gospels have clearly seen the destruction of the temple in 70 CE and claimed that their Jesus predicted it. The gospels also portray the religious Jewish elite in a very negative light. I think the reason for this is once again obvious when one thinks about it. The Jews were persecuting the crap out of the first century Christians because they were a break-away sect of Judaism and it really pissed them off. So the Christians got revenge by claiming their Jesus predicted all this calamity for the Jews. The synoptic writers brilliantly incorporated the destruction of Jerusalem into their gospels to sell their religion to people. They crafted a narrative which had Jesus warning the Jews that they would suffer greatly and their temple would be torn down if they did not believe in him. And they created many parables and passages that reinforced that same message (Matt 21:33-46, Matt 22:7, Matt 23, Mark 12:1-12, Matt 12:38-40, Luke 19:47 and many other examples). Just pause for a moment and think. Think how powerful that argument must have been in the first century (it even still fools people today) to a non-critical thinking person. Many people in the first couple centuries of Christianity would have been duped by that argument. “Look how badly the Jews were crushed by the Romans. And Jesus said those were his armies!” (Matt 22:7). It tricked a lot of simple folk into joining the religion and unfortunately Christianity spread like wildfire.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

@Chris May TLDR: To answer your questions more directly… The gospel writers did not see the second coming the same way Paul did. Paul thought that at the second coming all physical bodies would be destroyed or transformed. If you were considered wicked you would physically die (1 Cor 5:5, 1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Cor 15:50). If you were righteous your spirit would be saved and you would receive a glorified body that Paul calls a spiritual body and which Paul thought was sinless (1 Cor 15:45-55) and not corrupt like the physical body (Rom 7:18, 23-24). The gospel writers view things differently than Paul. They don’t have a transformation of the universe. They don’t have a transformation of the physical body either. Paul has both (1 Cor 15, Rom 8:18-23). The gospel writers do agree with Paul though that all the wicked will physically die at the second coming (Matt 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30). But they don’t seem to think that physical bodies are going to be changed in to a different substance like Paul talks about (Rom 8:23&29, Phil 3:21, 1 Cor 15:50-53). The gospel writers seem to believe that you will be left alive phyically after the second coming if you are considered righteous (Mark 13:20, Matt 24:22). Greek word is “Sarx” Strong’s G4561. The gospel writers also go out of there way to portray the resurrected body as a physical body (Luke 24:39, John 20:17, John 20:24-29) which is in complete disagreement with Paul. Someone might argue that Jesus’ resurrected body was not entirely physical because he passed through locked doors (John 20:19) and took on different appearances (Luke 24:16, John 21:4) with the apostles. Then they might argue that this makes it the same as Paul’s “spiritual” body of 1 Cor 15:50-53. Sounds like that argument might work, right? But there is a fatal flaw… The synoptic gospel writers say that this transformation must occur in the first century generation (Matt 10:23, Matt 16:27-28, Matt 24:34, Mark 8:38-9:1, Mark 13:30, Luke 9:26-27, Luke 21:32). And you and I are sitting in a physical body 2,000 years later that cannot do these things. That still sins. That still dies. And has not changed at all. Paul clearly believed otherwise. The Olivet Discourse will not harmonize with Paul’s view and this is why Christianity has all the confusion with that passage that you are talking about. They won’t harmonize because of their differing views from Paul and this is because it is not written by a god but by humans in my opinion. The first century Christians were a mystery cult and an apocalyptic cult that want to be rescued from a difficult world that we live in. One last point. Don’t get confused by Matt 24:36. The Jesus character in that gospel is simply saying he doesn’t know the day or the hour of his second coming but he clearly stated, just 2 verses before, that it would be that generation. You can say that something is going to happen within your generation without knowing the exact day. There is no issue here. Christian apologists are dishonest. I would also encourage you to watch my video “Why Partial-Preterism Does Not Work” so that you can know why “multiple” comings of Jesus are not possible like the partial preterists try to do with one coming in 70 CE and another at the so called end of time. I hope I answered your questions. If you have any more or need further clarification please feel free to ask. Sorry for the long post.

[@CMGigas1803]

@@escapingchristianity8765 Thanks for your detailed response. I don't mind long posts. Recently, I have encountered many reformed/ Calvinist type Christians who have run to the partial preterist defense. They act like they have kept the wolves at bay. They don't seem to recognize how arbitrary and defective their strategy of seemingly arbitrarily picking certain verses over others is to their argument. They don't know how the puzzle pieces fit or if they have them all, but they are sure they make the picture they imagine. I agree with almost everything you stated. Especially the gospels as "mystery" literature designed for inside or private interpretation. As you stated, Mark spells out why Jesus spoke in parables. This would be absurd as the main form of historical communication. It also connects back to the Jewish scriptures as a fulfillment like almost all of what passes as historical in the gospels.. Have you studied some of the scholarship connecting Paul's letters to the development of Mark's gospel? In other words, Mark being a story form of many of Paul's main themes i.e. Paul's gospel, the least being first in the kingdom, the negative petrayel of the orginal followers/apostles like Peter and Jesus' family, etc. If true this further destroys any reliable historicity of the gospels. I also find it strange that no letters or written accounts seem to exist or survive from those that attended the communities Paul founded? The gospel writers have a defined theological or mystery cult like purpose. I mean just average first account witness style letters that attest to meeting Paul or Barnabas, etc. Were these destroyed or did they just not exist. There are strange gaps in the writings that we seem to have. Makes me wonder if what existed was a major embarrassment to the later church and their predicted eschatology. Speculation on my part I know. Would be interested on your thoughts?

[@escapingchristianity8765]

​@@CMGigas1803 I have studied the relationship between Paul and Mark's gospel and I agree that Mark's gospel is basically a Pauline version. The later gospels don't like this and try to downplay the Mark/Pauline version by rewriting and adding to it. I would highly recommend two videos for you both by the same scholar. You can find them both under the playlists tab on the "Mythvision Podcast" KZbin channel. The first one is called "The First Generation of Christians in History" by Dr. Steve Mason. And the second one is called "The Second Generation of Christians in History" by Dr. Steve Mason. (The person who runs the channel, Derek Lambert, is a friend of mine. Not a super close friend but someone I have spent a few hours talking on the phone with and we are friends on Facebook as well.) Both videos are 3 hours each and I would strongly recommend watching both in their entirety. They are a gold mine of information. In the first video Dr. Mason begins talking about Paul around the 45 minute mark and his usage of the Greek phrase "to Evangelion" which Dr. Mason translates as "the announcement". I think you will especially find this fascinating when he ties it to Mark's gospel beginning at the 53 minute mark in that video. Here's a link to that video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rV7OiKybgrKCjdE In the second video, beginning at the eleven minute mark, Dr. Mason recaps some of what he covered in the first video and really starts to tie Paul and Mark together. Dr. Mason has such a great demeanor about him and you know that he is someone who truly just wants to try and find out the truth about what happened 2,000 years ago and he has no personal agenda. Here's a link to the second video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i5S5ln-YpK2Ib7c I wouldn't bother arguing with Christians. It is a waste of time. They are not looking for the truth on this subject. They are not emotionally ready to deal with it. I wasn't either for 32 years. You have to let people get there when they are ready. Many of them will never be ready in this life. That's okay. We all are on our own journey and whether it leads anywhere after this life nobody knows. To answer the last part of your reply I think there probably was lots of writings the early Christians destroyed and found embarrassing. It would have been nice to have those but there is still plenty of evidence that Christianity was severally fractured from the very beginning. Please check out those videos when you have time and let me know what you think. I think you will find them extremely insightful. Dr. Mason is a brilliant scholar in my opinion. Let me know if you have any other questions or if I forgot to answer something. Happy to try and help you if I can.

[@jamessikes6700]

When you Realize the Stories in the Bible are Allegorical as Types as Paul Say's in His Galatians letter things become Clear. To Me the number 70 is linked to the Physical Life span of 70 Years at which time the Physical Body is Destroyed and the Spiritual Soul= Mind and Spirit enters into the complete state of Christ Consciousness. The Kingdom of God our Creator's is Spiritual not Physical and Departing from a Place of Death, Pain and Sorrow is something Man Kind should look forward to not Fear. The Physical Body temple in the physical city Jerusalem you can be assured will pass away but the Eternal Spiritual Temple in the Heavenly Jerusalem is the Goal and Those who Seek the Spirit Kingdom by giving Rise to LOVE and GOOD WORKS DAILY Know in WHOM THEY BELIEVE and are not Ashamed. Look Inward when reading the Bible Stories and See Your Self and apply the Stories in your own Life and only then will they have Meaning. While in the Secret Place of Prayerful Meditation each Day Ask for Meaning with a Open Spiritual Circumcised Ear and the Voice of LORD will Answer Directly your Questions. If you Have the Mind and Spirit of Christ Abiding Within you; you have every thing pertaining to Life and Godliness and all anyone needs to do is Give Resurrection to that Life in Your Thoughts, Words spoken and Actions taken and realize Each and Every Day is THE LORDS DAY of NEW BEGINNINGS. Grace, Faith, Hope and Charity ti you AMEN

[@markrademaker5875]

Robert, I'd like your thoughts on the following....Isaiah 65 & 66 and Revelation 21 & 22 speak of the new heavens and the new earth.When one, honestly, reads those Texts, he sees that they do not speak of a place of sinless, diseaseless, without death eternal existence. Read, for example, Isaiah 65:17-20 and Rev. 22:2. Therefore, the Biblical Author was not a troubled person writing something to make himself feel good while he lives out his life. If he were, he would have written the end of Isaiah and Revelation in glowing terms, not as they are, with sin still in existence, yes? Do you understand my point? If the authors of the New Testament were cultists, they would have written a different ending to Revelation....Revelation which is Isaiah 65 & 66, yes?

[@nasesplace]

Those people in the New Testament CAN still be alive today and that is by reincarnation buddy. Everyone is here from those days but we are in different cars/flesh.

[@MetanoiaOfferMastery]

Is hallucinating bad?

[@RobotNinjaDestroyer]

I don't know why the Bible says that Jesus will return within the lifetime of the disciples, however, have you considered that perhaps there is a perfectly logical explanation, you just don't know what that explanation is.

[@jamessikes6700]

May be the answer is found in the Word Resurrection as the Strait and Narrow way for Every Disciplined one as the return to Christ Consciousness. Jesus and the Saving Power of Christ exists in every human being from birth but is keep Dead because of the Proud EGO Self desires for power and pleasure found in the Lust of the Flesh. Jesus Has returned to Live in the Few Disciplined ones by way of the Christ Anointing Hear and Now and that Anointing Is Transforming His Saints Day by DAY into His Likeness but when the time of completeness of a persons time on Earth Comes that Person will Return to Full Glory. So Maybe the Truth is Jesus Has Come and IS Come by way of His Indwelling Spirit and Mind and Will Come in Fullness when a person leaves the Physical Body and is Given a Total New Spiritual Body. My Question is Why cause Division by way of Carnal Church Doctrines that keep People from knowing Truth. The Goal of all Man Kind should be to Return to Christ Consciousness from which by choice Man Fell and is Suffering the consequences and there is only One Way that Can Happen Which is Through SELF SACRIFICE of The Proud EGO Daily as Worship. The True LORD'S DAY IS EVERY DAY IN EVERY WAY and not as the Universal CHURCH Teaches once a Week. Just Something to Consider

[@J-PLeigh8409]

Its His coming judgement that is spoken of & even prophesied by Christ...His coming judgement on Jerusalem & the Temple which is left desolate, its explicit, the Discourse in Luke, Mark & Mat show this & even leading up to like Mat 23. This coming on the clouds is authoritative coming judgement language that parallels God in the Old Test ie, God coming on the clouds to Egypt

[@davidandrews3597]

Another option is that Jesus' words were fulfilled and he returned around 70AD to fully do away with the old covenant. Could it be that the christian churches have missed/denied Jesus' 70AD timeframe return as the Jews missed/denied Jesus' as Messiah? As for the promises to Jesus' followers (such as seven Churches in Revelation) they may well have been fulfilled. They are the ones that made the choice to follow and suffer. Now, the new covenant applies to the world. Jesus taught of God's Kingdom. A spiritual Kingston of righteousness, peace and joy. All can now walk in this while in this flesh body experience. Free choice is still present and is required to truly seek, want and abide in God. Jesus made this possible. We can now do the right things (God's law written on our hearts), without quilt (peace) when we stumble and with an excitement (joy) of growing as sons and daughters of God until this flesh body ends. Perhaps it's the growing/maturing process of fully developing ourselves to the point that we can "resurrect" into a form that can be in God's presence. It's vital to break off all the religious teachings to step back and see a bigger picture as well as respond to the gifts God has placed in in of us to know Him. Jesus made this possible and more.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

The interpretation you are suggesting won't work. I was a full-preterist (Covenant Eschatology version) the final 18 months I was a Christian so I am fully aware of the argument you are trying to make. I cover the reasons why every form of full-preterism fails in my previous videos "Christianity's Fatal Problem" and the Addendum video. So if you haven't seen those two videos please watch them. In case you don't have time to watch them here is a brief summary of the arguments I present against all forms of full-preterism in those two videos: 1) Luke's usage of the Greek word Oikoumene. He uses this word 8 times in Luke/Acts. The ones in Luke 21:26 and Acts 17:31 are the important ones for my argument. Oikoumene was always used for the entire Roman Empire in the first century. The word Oikoumene literally means "inhabited". So where ever people dwell on the earth. But it was always used at a MINIMUM for the entire Roman Empire. Never anything less. That's very important to recognize. 2) This is why you can't restrict the world-wide judgment passages in the NT (which all forms of full-preterism do) to only the Jews in Jerusalem in 70 CE and say it was punishment for rejecting Jesus. Luke's usage of Oikoumene proves he thought all people throughout the world, or at least the Roman Empire, would be judged at the second coming of Jesus. 3) Please pay special attention to Acts 17:22-31. Oikoumene is used in verse 31. What is the context of that passage? Luke has Paul giving a speech at the Areopagus in Athens, Greece. It is clear from reading that passage that Luke thinks EVERYONE (v30) will be judged at the second coming of Jesus. Not just Jews. What did Luke think the judgment would be? 4) This is where we need to read Luke 17:26-30 (also in Matt 24:37-39). This passage in Luke is a reference to the stories of Noah and Lot. Luke has the Jesus character saying that ALL the wicked will PHYSICALLY DIE at the second coming of Jesus. That's what happened in both the Flood story with Noah and the Sodom and Gomorrah story with Lot. Therefore... 5) Did all the wicked PHYSICALLY DIE in the first century generation? Did they all PHYSICALLY DIE in 70 CE? NO! Then why did Luke say it would be just like the days of Noah and Lot? Because he wasn't telling the truth. He may of sincerely believed in Jesus, Like Paul and the other NT writers, but they weren't telling the truth. Their god did not exist. 6) The capitalizations are for emphasis only and not to yell at you. Please read the summary I just presented carefully. It proves that at least Luke thought all the wicked would physically die at the second coming of Jesus. This certainly didn't happen throughout the Roman Empire in the first century. On top of that... 7) We know that after the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE the Romans let many of the Jews go. The ones that were old and they didn't deem as a threat they let go. They also took some as slaves. Therefore, there is no way to make it fit the Noah and Lot example that Luke uses for Jesus' second coming in Luke 17:26-30. Everyone did not die in the Jerusalem siege. 8) As I said throughout this video, either the Christian god does not exist or he can't be trusted. There are no other options. The option you are suggesting cannot work. I wish you well, sir.

[@andreaking5266]

@@escapingchristianity8765 So sad, we're saved by grace through faith, which is something God has to give you, I pray God reveals himself to you and allows you to be saved and have eternal life with Him through faith in his son Jesus, it's a wonderful thing to have because there's so much that you see and possibly understand! The Holy Spirit does give you that new body, Paul is right!

[@J-PLeigh8409]

You have already been refuted, Partial Preterism easily refutes you, your just the result of sola scriptura & not reconciling full preterism, which leads to unbelief. The holy Church that the gates of hell will not prevail against, refutes your heterodox ideas & shipwrecked faith. Too bad those weak in their faith might be persuaded by you, somehow sadly

[@escapingchristianity8765]

@J-PLeigh8409 I would suggest that you watch my video "Why Partial Preterism Does Not Work". It was the 5th to last video I posted for my channel.

[@J-PLeigh8409]

@@escapingchristianity8765 I did & you completely miss that your the heterodox result of sola scriptura & that you have never been in the position to refute anything .....you were an heterodox full preterist to the obvious result, your current unbelief. You think reading the bible w/ your biased lens & imposing whatever you wish holds up? No sir, you ignore the holy church that is sustained from Christ to now & your unable to do honest exegesis of the Old & New Test. I encourage you to see your flaws & continue to research but actual church history & authoritative language paralleled in scripture....btw, even NDE's show a loving Creator & are so abundant can't be completely ignored

[@escapingchristianity8765]

@@J-PLeigh8409 NDE's are an interesting phenomenon. Whether they are real or not I do not know but they offer hope. NDE's do sometimes show benevolent beings and most of the time they are not Jesus but other gods based on the persons culture or in many cases the beings simply don't identify themselves. Don't you think that's odd if your Jesus is real? I can tell from your response that you are Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or some non-protestant version of Christianity since you appeal to church authority. The point I'm making is that a new utopian creation with no more physical bodies was explicitly promised to happen in the first century and did not happen.

[@J-PLeigh8409]

@@escapingchristianity8765 exactly my point...you impose that on the text. We can see when we exegete scripture that the same authoritative prophetic coming judgement language is used in the Old & New Test esp via God in the Old & God in the person of Jesus in the New. The most vitally important aspect is the established New Covenant, as the Old has passed away. If the Discourse per the Synoptic Gospels is aimed at judgement coming to the Tenple in Jerusalem & unbelieving Jews who crucified the Lord of glory, as well as Revelation either in full or partial, seen as Johns expansion & his own Discourse, Christendom is not refuted but is established nor does it cause a problem for the Lords return as we have other texts you prob are familiar w/, also sacred tradition handed down along w/ holy scripture by the Church that formed the Canon. Also as Christians we believe Christ is God hence NDE's of God, a God of light, compassion, mercy, & love, is Jesus Christ as he is One w/ God, & any hellish NDE's would only affirm Christendom, also anything of other religions can be a lie & just evil, even falsely affirming other religions which I would even have to see esp if Hindu or Buddhist which can be picked apart given their beliefs of the afterlife, so no not odd at all...what is odd is that Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against his church, & that this Church is the pillar & foundation of the truth, & has received the full deposit of faith & people such as yourself fail to recognize the fullness & beauty of Christendom is in the holy Catholic & Apostolic Church & this Church is still here glorifying God, growing even well over a billion, has ancient practices & spreads the truth & is the Church triumphant. You also have a major problem w/ such an assertion that there is an explicit text saying in the 1st cent there will be no more physical bodies & an utopia, a heaven on earth in a wooden literal sense....you impose this but its the result Luther said would happen w/ his heresy. Where is the 1st cent date & promise?

[@J-PLeigh8409]

@@escapingchristianity8765 two more points to add, & that is exorcism & certified miracles in or by the Church. Neither are taken lightly & I believe its 1% of cases of possession actually receive an exorcism, its not like the Protesting Charlatans that "perform" fake exorcism & leg lengthening tricks, but they have not the rite of exorcism either which was handed down thru apostolic succession to the Bishops, as well as administering sacraments. Also miracles investigated by the Church & as we see incorruptible saints & Eucharistic miracles which hold up to scientific scrutiny, its also why the Shroud of Turin is so interesting w/ honest science backing it, some things to consider & worth unbiased study