Christians and Gay Identity: Sean vs Preston Sprinkle.

[@PaulVanZandt-o9x]

Dr. McDowell, I appreciate your willingness to have open dialogue on issues surrounding trans and gay people. Judging from the comments following this and yesterday's video on preferred pronouns, there are many, many folks who don't think it's appropriate to even talk about such topics. I'm guessing you take a lot of grief for countenancing such conversations. Thank you for braving the criticism to encourage the talk.

[@marwood1969]

The problem with giving oxygen to taboo subjects is that they metastasise so quickly and become mainstream. 50 years ago, homosexuality had a completely different standing in society until the box was opened just enough to let the air in and look at it now. 'Pride' marches all over the place, deliberate attempts to indoctrinate children into this heinous lifestyle via schooling and drag queens parading their deviancy in front of little boys and girls. A 'church' near me flies the price flag for a month each year and never preach the gospel. I am not saying that these are easy topics or they should be completely ignored but they should be kept where they belong; on the side lines. Tolerate but never promote.

[@KM-zn3lx]

@Paul. .I wished more Pastors would! This is definitely something that should be discussed in Christianity because there is still widespread confusion!

[@Pastor_Grant]

The Bible says its a shame to speak about these things. We all know what God said to Moses, Jesus did not contradict Moses. This video is proof of Evangelical compromise.

[@kayfedrick7985]

@@Pastor_Grant We are commanded to shine light into the darkness. Satan hates it when that happens. Your comment is proof of the failure of professing pastors to share truth.

[@debbyhill6080]

@@PaulVanZandt-o9x Here is this. Sin, like yeast grows when a little heat is added. Some one that might be curious, can be misled by errant information. I have a daughter that as a teen, was led away from Jesus into Lesbianism. She now says God is a figment of our imaginations. I pray she does not go to Hell. The TALKING ABOUT ANYTHING, SHOULD BE ABOUT HOW TO SURVIVE THIS LIFE. Hitler said if Something is said often enough, people will begin to believe it. He practiced that to the end of millions of Hebrews. Sexual Sin leads away faster & more assuredly than anything else. Sin is sin and there is only one way to stop being in the race of Sinners, & that is via the shed Blood of God King Jesus. But, like in the movie, The Matrix, some don't want to be saved, SADLY.

[@e.m.8094]

It's a sad commentary on our culture when people list their sexuality as the first identifier of who they are.

[@shadowm2k7]

Yeah it's really sad

[@kstevenson3504]

This is typical when people feel oppressed. Its sad that people feel they have to. But if you are oppressed for being a southerner, then people will take great pride in being a southerner. this is an issue of trying to regain their dignity that they feel they lost because of shame and oppression. In some ways its a coming to terms: "Yes, I am..." that is viewed as shame. "Its ok!" No one can live forever in shame. To be constructive, shame must be removed--even if you are against a certain "Identity."

[@e.m.8094]

@kstevenson3504 That's an interesting take. Thank you for chiming in with your perspective; I can definitely see where you're coming from.

[@pheriwinkle]

In English, when you stack adjectives, the most important, most intrinsic thin is closest to the noun, and then the qualifications are more distant from the noun. So when you say, "I'm a Black Christian man," the Christian is more important in that statement. "I'm a Christian Chinese man" on the other hand, is communicating that the Chinese is more important in that statement. And it's context dependent. But in general, anyone who says "I'm a gay Christian" is automatically putting Christianity first, and the gay is just a qualification, it is subordinate, even though is is uttered first in the sequence.

[@e.m.8094]

@pheriwinkle Yes, I understand that; I wasn't talking about Christians only however. (Perhaps I could have said "main" identifier.)

[@nealm6764]

Identifying proudly as your sin? How is this even up for discussion?

[@reglook1]

Yea, why would it be a sin? A man put they gay stuff in the bible only 150 yrs ago and God goes back in time before dat.

[@blogz]

I hope you can square this comment up against what demographic that is most prone to suicide. And ofcause this is not exclusive to this particular religion but across most of the religions.

[@nealm6764]

@@blogz I am not interested in your psychobabble. I am interested in following the word of God, not delusions to justify sin.

[@christopherflux6254]

Saying that you are ‘gay’ isn’t necessarily boasting about it. It can just be an acknowledgement of something that’s true.

[@jamestrotter3162]

@@reglook1 Jesus Christ disagrees with you from Genesis to Revelation.

[@ConvincedofChristianity]

Thank you for addressing this all-important topic, Dr. McDowell. Prayers for you and your ministry!

[@sandywong1959]

I agree with Sean … a gay identity competes with one’s Christian identity. And with Preston when he says If a person says he/she has a same sex attraction doesn’t make that his/her identity. I think it is helpful to have one’s story unfold before determining what a person means when they say I’m gay. Why does one need to say they’re gay if they have same sex attraction? Why not just say… I’m a Christian? We all have struggles with sin and our old nature but as a Christian our identity is ‘ in Christ’ The Spirit empowers us in our struggles, whatever they may be!

[@jockyoung4491]

"Why does one need to say they’re gay if they have same sex attraction?" Because that is what being gay means. Duh.

[@DanSmith01ave]

Yes, but a persons' sexual orientation is very different to someone randomly stealing, lying or getting angry one day. Sexuality is not something that you can just switch off, nor is it a choice. And the sacrifice asked of gay people is incomparable to giving up other sins. For instance, all a liar needs to do to repent is start telling the truth. All a thief needs to do is stop stealing. All an angry person needs to do is learn anger management. A gay person is told that for their repentance, they need to go the rest of their lives single, celibate and alone. Not just go without sex for life (difficult enough for any red-blooded male), but also romance, love, intimacy, holding hands, sharing life with someone who knows you, someone to come home to after a difficult week. If people are honest about this, anyone will tell you an intimate relationship is one of the greatest consolations in life, and churches are telling gay folks - 'you can just go without.' So even if you maintain a conservative position on this, you should at least understand the enormity of the sacrifice that is asked of gay people, and you'll understand why it's not as simple as just as 'well we all struggle with something'.

[@caseygroves3046]

Words have meaning. This is a great conversation.

[@seanbeck6232]

It’s important to define terms in any intellectual conversation. Context is important too.

[@laurieanne9712]

Oh, blah, blah. Just go Bible!! Issues loved to be "complexed" to excuse sin. Say the word. Sin. Go to the Word. We fight homosexual attraction the same way we fight any other sin. Why are we willing to wallow in semantics & words? Nothing here was going to the Word--what does God say? Through the ENTIRE Bible, what is said about this? Just tell the TRUTH and let the Holy Spirit do the work in the heart.

[@westleybenson1188]

@@laurieanne9712 Have you ever fought same sex attraction?

[@MusicalRaichu]

The problem is that it's not a sin. Numerous studies document how damaging it is to treat it as one. So they struggle to work around the issue. Of course to claim the Bible has anything against it is also semantics and word play.

[@DanSmith01ave]

Sorry but it's not as simple to just say 'just go Bible' to someone. If someone doesn't believe in the inspiration or authority of scripture, what use is it saying Bible to them? I would argue homosexual attraction is quite unlike other sins. I genuinely do not think most churches understand what they ask of gay people to sacrifice. All a thief needs to do is stop stealing. A liar needs to start telling the truth. An angry person can learn anger management. A gay person on the other hand is told that for their repentance, they need to spent the rest of their life, single, celibate and alone. To go without that most basic fundamental yearning of every human heart, namely a loving relationship. So even if you maintain your position against homosexuality, please understand the experience of a gay person begins when their sexuality develops in early adolescence, it's not a choice, and if they're part of an unsupportive family or church, they're going to have a really tough time navigating their faith and sexuality. It's not as simple as just saying, 'the Bible says so...'

[@benkennington8941]

Dan: can we not hold out hope to them that Jesus Christ can transform them inwardly? To take one example of a ministry in which this happens, look up X-Out-Loud.

[@westleybenson1188]

@benkennington8941 Part of the problem with these claims is that they have been made before. Exodus International also claimed to have so many people who were "changed." As it turned out, there was no inward change in almost any of them. Some of them went into opposite sex relationships, but THEY weren't any different. They still experienced attraction to the same sex. For God, truly, anything is possible. He had an opportunity to change those people of that was what HE wanted. Apparently, it wasn't.

[@rickball3147]

Love the faithful and kind discussion. For me, Preston’s example at the end nailed it. Sounded like the apostle Paul using the context of the situation to pick the right words for the moment.

[@brando3342]

Simple answer, no.

[@MovedbyTruth]

How can you call yourself a Christian while rebelling against the teachings of Jesus, simultaneously?

[@e.m.8094]

In all fairness, I don't think anyone is purposely and knowingly rebelling against the teachings of Jesus. For the record, in case you don't already know, Preston is against same-sex "acts"(he doesn't believe the Bible condones it and neither does he), but he has different views about orientation and pronouns than most of us.

[@Notwoke7]

If you aren't obeying Jesus's word you are in Rebellion don't kid yourself

[@e.m.8094]

@@Notwoke7 I think you missed my point. I don't agree with most of these viewpoints, I'm just saying that is how many of them see things. I will say however, that I don't follow 100% of Jesus words 100% of the time, but I definitely wouldn't say I'm "rebelling" against God.

[@martin9410]

Acknowledging that one has the temptation of same-sex desire is no different than admitting that one is drawn to the abuse of alcohol or a relationship outside of marriage. Pushing someone to deny that they have those feelings doesn't help them combat those temptations. It's better to confess and admit those struggles than deny you have them. Rather than "rebelling against the teachings of Jesus," it's doing what Jesus asks of us: confronting sin, confessing it, and relying on the Holy Spirit's comfort and leading. To make a blanket statement, thinking that somehow that erases all problems doesn't. This is why it's so difficult for some to come to a saving knowledge of Christ because we're so ready to fry them on the eternal flames rather than reach out through the love of Christ to help them.

[@JW-tg1nn]

​@@Notwoke7do you follow Jesus' teachings all day everyday?

[@HappyHolyHealthyLife]

It seems like Preston's answers change depending on who he's talking to because (unless I'm mistaken) I could've sworn I've seen interviews with him not only affirming a Gay Christian identity but even a Transgender Christian identity. I'm perplexed! 🧐🤔

[@Juniper333]

No, he never has said that. He also wrote books about both not affirming either lifestyle.

[@HappyHolyHealthyLife]

@Juniper333 I'm not saying he's affirming the lifestyle, but I've absolutely seen him affirm the "celibate" Gay Christian identity & he locks arms with those who do. I've probably watched at least 10-20 hours of his videos and listened to some of his audiobooks.

[@HappyHolyHealthyLife]

@Juniper333 please look up Preston's video called "Diversity of Trans* Part 5: A Christian’s Journey from Male to Female: Addie"

[@paulan7218]

@@Juniper333 dear, you might wanna look into him further because you’re wrong

[@rigortortoise7297]

I think it's important to define what you mean by affirming a gay Christian identity. Does he think that a person who has transitioned can be a Christian? Yes. Does he believe transitioning is a God-honoring option for a Christian? Not according to anything I have seen from him. To the contrary, he has seemed consistent in his stance that transitioning is not something a Christian should undergo.

[@zealheals]

Hmm, the title made me think: "Im a Christian drunk"; I'm a Christian thief, I'm a Christian magician, I'm a mafia boss for Jesus...yes, I get it. Can't seem to make those work no matter which way you slice it.

[@dragouws]

"Have I repented?" is one question

[@e.m.8094]

LOL @ "Mafia Boss for Jesus"

[@matthewpopp1054]

“I’m a Christian and I sin” ???

[@e.m.8094]

@@matthewpopp1054 Not sure if I'm understanding or misunderstanding your comment, but there's a big difference between occasionally struggling with something, and living in it/making it your identity.

[@JW-tg1nn]

​@@e.m.8094 i agree, but define "occasionally".

[@jamesbarksdale978]

Very interesting. I'm not sure there's a one-shoe-fits-all approach or solution to this issue. Context does matter. I'll simply say that I don't qualify my faith in Christ with any other adjectives. I'm not a white Christian. I'm not a male Christian. I'm not a Boomer Christian. I'm not a heterosexual Christian. I'm not a divorced Christian. I'm not a Republican Christian. I'm not an American Christian. I happen to be all of these, but they are inconsequential to who I am in Christ. I am a Christian. For the person who considers him- or herself gay, it seems to me that they, too, should be of the same mind. We are all followers of Jesus. The question for each of us, then, is this: How should we live as Christ-followers? Each of us has our own cross to bear, so it will be different for each of us. Yet, we are all bound by our Faith to live morally, ethically, lovingly - and biblically.

[@Kodo738]

Lmao I’m an unashamed gay Christian, Jesus loves me ✝️❤️

[@HeIsRisenLuke24]

So you’re unashamed of sin, yet think you’re a Christian ?

[@lisacook9482]

Beckett Cook would be the perfect person to have own about this topic. 😊

[@kellys-sx7gf]

Yes! He has an amazing testimony as an ex-gay person, who denounces the idea of any notion of "gay identity", celibate or not.

[@MusicalRaichu]

If Cook has found peace by remaining single, that might be fine for him, but it doesn't work for the majority of people. There's a reason why God said "it's not good for the human being to be alone". God did not say "it's not good for straight people good for gays".

[@lisacook9482]

God did not say human being. He said man. That is why he said he would make a helper. And so he made a woman. God said "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall be one flesh. Genesis 2:24. And Jesus said the same thing in Matthew 19:5. Anything else is a sin. You may not like that. But that is what the word of God says.

[@marydiggins9294]

@@lisacook9482❤

[@arnodyck]

Our identity must be in Christ. There is no salvation without repentance. This was a core teaching of Jesus time on earth. If your sex attraction or gender identity forms the core of your identity then that is not a follower of Jesus. The first requirement of following Jesus is to deny the self. Denial of the sexual self is paramount. My sexuality is not my own, it is denied and under submission to Christ.

[@jockyoung4491]

Your subervience is rather creepy.

[@JohnDoe-i1h]

​@@jockyoung4491you could say the same for you and society all it does is take and yet you look down on yourself and others if your role is fulfilled properly. we all are beholden to the group, you must be tied to some gang somewhere.

[@arnodyck]

@@jockyoung4491My submission is Christ is true freedom. You can't understand until you put your faith in him

[@davidscott5859]

No they should identify with Christ alone. There is no reason for you to bait with such such silly questions, it is bowing to the world.

[@e.m.8094]

The title of the video was simply the question being discussed in the clip. Calm thyself.

[@davidscott5859]

​@@e.m.8094 It was the question being discussed - Which is the problem

[@sk8ternate1]

Watch the video, instead of judging a simple postulated question of a topic to discuss and have a definitive stance on it. It’s understanding why we shouldn’t and why we should identify in Christ first above all. This is apologetic conversation.

[@e.m.8094]

​@@davidscott5859Have you ever heard of a rhetorical question?

[@e.m.8094]

​@@sk8ternate1Amen

[@andreaheba380]

Thank you Dr. McDowell for having this conversation, not so much for the sake of those who have the clarity of mind, both biblically and just naturally to understand and respond with adefinite NO (like many here do), but more for those who genuinely seek some help in answering this question truthfully. Sure, context and personal circumstance matters but those can never be reasons for false assurance but rather for being loving without being affirming.

[@sandywong1959]

Great illustration about Greg and how he identifies himself in different contexts… appreciated that!

[@e.m.8094]

TWO MORE DAYS, TWO MORE DAYS!! (looking forward to watching the entire conversation, lol)

[@Leslieisaboynametoo]

Oh I recently heard of this guy. He worked on that new Upside Down Kingdom Bible. If he supports what this video says he supports, I'm disappointed Zondervan would publish something like that.

[@e.m.8094]

Mike Winger did a pretty long review of it on this past Friday's live Q&A. Definitely worth watching if you'd like to learn more about it. That said, I do feel like Zondervan has been edging more liberal in some of the materials they've published recently.

[@Leslieisaboynametoo]

@@e.m.8094 Oh yes I'm familiar with Mike Winger! Didn't really feel like watching the livestream but probably will go back to it before watching this debate.

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@e.m.8094 I tried watching one of Winger's videos on the topic. Gave up after 5 mins. It was unbelievable how much misinformation he could fit into so short a time.

[@paulan7218]

@@MusicalRaichu just because you don’t like his information and don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it it’s wrong

[@MusicalRaichu]

@ It wasn't a matter of like or dislike. He said a bunch of very harmful things that we have the data to disprove.

[@blocker1954]

Why is heterosexual not a distraction but homosexuality is? Doesn’t make any sense.

[@binghamguevara6814]

Theres nothing wrong with heterosexuality. Homosexuality lead to even worse sexual/gender perversions like bisexuality, pansexuality, trans-lesbians-polyamory open marriages.

[@binghamguevara6814]

@ my comment has been deleted because your lgbt-ally bitch KZbin censors any criticism on lgbt. I don’t know what i said.

[@NickGagnon-y7e]

@@binghamguevara6814 Thats not true at all.

[@binghamguevara6814]

@ what’s not true? My comment has been deleted.

[@kennethgray2510]

Name one Bible verse in the Old or New Testament where a believer is referred to as a homosexual in the present tense.

[@Bioboy590]

The problem with identifying as "Same Sex Attracted" is that it only tells half the story. It misses on the exclusivity of the same sex attractions. Additionally, it doesn't differentiate healthy same sex attraction aspects such as sacrificial love and friendship from the unhealthy attraction to sexually lust towards the same sex. Third, that terminology is a byproduct of the Ex-gay Movement, which is extremely problematic for its false teaching that men should expect God to change their patterns of sexual attraction. Ultimately, there is no good terminology for the sexuality of a celibate, gay/same sex attracted Christian. Therefore, we should give grace to where people are at and the terminology they choose to use, and learn to assume the best about each other instead of the worst.

[@stephaniemyers4121]

Sean, I appreciate your willingness to have the conversation and to dig deeper into Preston's theology on how he dances around the "gayness" topic as a professing Christian.

[@midimusicforever]

Preston is wrong.

[@KRashad]

Union with Christ means that I have no right to speak of myself as apart from or as independent of Christ. My union with Him has the final say over my identity or identification. That is what the great exchange is all about: He took what is mine and gave me what is His. In Christ, I lost the right to self-identify by that for which Christ was crucified, died, and raised to deliver me out of. Salvation, if nothing else, is a new point of identification for the believer: out of Adam and into Christ (2 Cor. 5:16-18). You may now refer to me as “the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus” (21).

[@jeremycorrao]

You can't not be a practicing homosexual Christian. Romans 1

[@MusicalRaichu]

Not a single gay person I've known did even one word of Rom 1. You've obviously misunderstood it.

[@thisisnotmyname4499]

@@MusicalRaichu 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (Rom 1:26-27)

[@kimmytuna5180]

​@@MusicalRaichuSo, all of the gay people you know are celibate?

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@thisisnotmyname4499 You've left out the context before and after. Not one gay person I've known has worshiped idols, had shameful desires, set aside the natural use of the female since he never had it to begin with, was out of control of their feelings, did unseemly things, were filled with all kinds of evil or approved of wrongdoing. They were lovely people who were a pleasure to be with. But using Rom 1 against people lands you in trouble with 2.1 "you condem yourself", so be careful how you misuse this text.

[@KM-zn3lx]

Sean I love it when you push back!

[@MsQiu-ks8lm]

Preston is obviously going around the bush, groping for words. He's trying to right what is OBVIOUSLY wrong.

[@darrenmiller6927]

I have a history too. We all have a story. I can only speak for myself. I am struggling to overcome my sins. God's grace is my hope. Jesus is my prayer, His life His blood, His resurrection. By God's kindness to me, I am alive today. My sins, which are many, are forgiven. This is my hope and my prayer. By God's grace, His mercy, His kindness, His love, and His Son I am hopeful. This is my hope. May God have mercy on us all, you, me, every last one of us: as for me I will call on His mercy, by His grace. All Praise and Glory to God, by Jesus' very sacrifice, life and resurrection. I don't have a prayer without Jesus, against the enemy or my sin.

[@LaVidaClara]

Saying I’m American and Christian, I’m divorced and Christian, is not defining ourselves by SIN. Saying I am gay and Christian, is.

[@MusicalRaichu]

Being gay is not a sin. American on the other hand ... given you've chosen a convicted criminal to lead you, I'm not so sure.

[@jason.martin]

I have never heard anyone identify as an American Christian or divorced Christian, this terminology of X plus Christian is within the Rainbow world only. Preston is also conflating immutable attributes such and being an American and gay which is to do with sexuality.

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@jason.martin One's orientation is outside of wilful control. it's usually immutable. one's nationality may or may not be depending on one's socioeconomic situation. one's faith is mutable. That's why when pressured enough, some gay people are forced to lose their faith to preserve their well-being even though they don't want to.

[@NickGagnon-y7e]

Whats wrong with gays exactly?

[@alexsnyder2741]

Good thing Preston Sprinkle didn’t make his own Bible translation/commentary to insert his worldview… oh wait

[@ConnorMacgillivray-j1f]

I have been in the process of subjecting all my identifies to Christ for some time now and it's been a profoundly humbling experience. I would have considered myself a patriot and in my time I've lent both right and left but now I follow the way. And only the way. Being a child of God doesn't stop at any earthly border.

[@mikeboycedoctrina]

I think a good way to deal with it for a Christ follower is to say something about being a recovering gay, like we might say recovering alcoholic. A recovering alcoholic may still have the desire to drink, but is overcoming a disordered desire that could derail his life in Christ if allowed to give birth to sin. It recognizes that temptation is not sin, but could lead easily to sin. The desire is disordered, not good or neutral.

[@rachelray3250]

I believe Sprinkle’s point about being more effective by identifying as gay too, to the unbeliever at Starbucks, is actually a recipe for a lot more confusion that often defaults to acceptance/confirmation. People tend to gravitate towards comfort. My fam has been involved in WOF/NAR churches for as long as I can remember. God saved me from that several years ago or so now, but my family is still heavily affected, oddly enough, despite them not being in churches now. My little brother was struggling with same sex attraction while going to a WOF/NAR church and desiring to become a youth pastor. He claims he tried to pray it away, but people in this WOF/NAR church kept approaching him with “prophetic statements” saying stuff like “God sees you and it’s going to be ok”, “God knows who you are and He loves you”, “God knows what you’re struggling with and doesn’t want you to worry”… etc. of course this is a typical thing in these churches, but people believe it. And because of my brother’s struggles, he perceived it a certain way. He didn’t ask “what do you mean by that?” and discover that they had no specific words from God or maybe that they thought God was talking about XY or Z. He gravitated towards comfort, took it as a sign from God that he was accepted as gay by God, left church and started pursuing relationships with other men. He knew that those people were not accepting of homosexuality, but he took their words separately from their positions. He started perceiving orthodox Christians as deceived and became further and further away from church and Christians and eventually God. Now he doesn’t know what he believes, but his identity is gay. When he first told us, his fam, he said he was struggling with “attractions”, but when he “came out” and called himself gay, to us, was when he had fully embraced it, and was in a relationship with another man. I believe precision with terminology matters. And I believe Identifying as something with moral connotations matters. The words can carry weight that the messenger isn’t trying to communicate. That is a dangerous reality.

[@paulan7218]

Preston sprinkles needs to realize that you should wrestle with your sin you should be appalled by it

[@e.m.8094]

No one would put any of the other prohibitions listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 before the word "Christian" as a secondary identifier, would they? 🤷

[@MusicalRaichu]

"other" prohibitions!? There's no mention of "gay" there. Oh wait, you're reading a mistranslated Bible.

[@e.m.8094]

@MusicalRaichu You're right, it's even more graphic! The words are "arsenokoitai" and "malakoi" Still, it seems that you've missed my point. Some professing "Christians" have no qualms affirming these things, but for some reason would condemn the other prohibitions mentioned in this passage, and similar scriptures.

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@e.m.8094 The meaning of male bedder has been lost and the meaning of soft is ambiguous. The Bible's authors had specific issues with a subset of what we classify today as same-secs acts without offering justification. Studying the underlying culture reveals that the issue was denigrating a male by placing him in a woman's role, and that only because women were assumed inferior. We see things differently today. Failure to affirm this harmless natural variation has been extensively documented to do incalculable harm. We do not decide complex moral issues by looking for prohibitions in the Bible Rom 7.6. Jesus spoke against it if it avoids doing good Mat 12.-12. I suggest Rom 13.8-10, Mat 7.12, Micah 6.8, Gal 5.6 etc. are a better guide.

[@teetrevor]

Sophists theorizing

[@SuperHillbillyJ]

Being American isn’t inherently sinful though.

[@callforsalt2624]

Using language in such a way is playing with fire when it comes to identities directly associated with sin.

[@EviesAnnee]

I pray we can eventually stop using the term gay to define a homesexual, aka a person with same sex attraction. Gay was a word meaning joyful, and not all persons who claim to be "gay" are happy all the time. In fact, statistics show that people who don't see themselves as God created them sans sin, are more prone to depression and suicide. Admitted heterosexuals have never felt a need to bring up their sexuality and if they do, they're labeled perverted. Next thing you know, people will be saying they identify as pedophile, or rape oriented, or... God help us all. I have known and loved many people who told me they were "gay" and it didn't change how i felt about them but I'd be lying if I said I understood or agreed with their position.

[@cleverhippo8251]

If someone said to me I am a gay Christian I will say they don't understand regeneration and what they say indicate that they are still a slave of this thing and do not yet know the true freedom in Christ. The I am claim does not make the statement true though. They might just misunderstand. The correct thing to say is I was gay, but now I am a Christian who struggles against that particular sin. There isn't something like a gay Christian. This is an ideological identity imported into and competing with a faith identity. The sexual immoral, murderers, liers, etc will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. These things need to be put off, not embraced as an identity.

[@Particularly_John_Gill]

We shouldn’t even talk about “identity” to begin with. It’s a modern psychological concept not a Biblical one.

[@MusicalRaichu]

It's a deeply rooted Biblical concept. Why do you think the Jews made up the conquest of Canaan? Why were they so strict with food laws and having their baby boys done? Why did Paul insist that "in Christ there is no this or that"? It's an integral part of human psychology and thus part of the Bible.

[@BATTY3459]

Here are my thoughts: I appreciate you giving pushback to his ideas, but I fundamentally disagree with Sprinkle. What I notice about him is he's a master of word games and saying "it's about context" but in his scenario that he presented, where a person identifying as gay and living a homosexual life encounters a supposed Christian who also uses that term and doesn't, how is that person going to know that they aren't living that way? Further, what if there's attraction between them, and the one living it out hits on the one who isn't? It's incredibly problematic.. We're supposed to be separate from the world. Why would we take on sinful labels? Especially when the alphabet community are all too eager to add people to their ranks who "come out" even if they aren't actively living in it. There are married heterosexuals who "discover" that they're "bi/pan/non-binary etc. and the alphabet people are all too eager to lump them in with them even if they don't leave their spouse. Further, I'm curious whether Preston is familiar with the likes of Alfred Kinsey or John Money who were the creepos who kind of birthed the modern ideology behind sexuality. Is he aware of what they did in their "research"? He seems to be painting the LGBTQ group/same-sex attracted as perpetual victims, similarly to the radical left and essentially says it's nearly impossible for them to change, despite the fact that the Bible says otherwise. How is he an authority on this subject since he himself has never wrestled with these feelings? Why does he presume to know the best way to reach them?

[@tinamurphy3572]

. We live in a free speech country. People have the right to say and identify as whatever they please. Unfortunately, you are correct, many people mean many different things while using the same exact terms. This subject in particular is frought with this problem. We must not speak into someone else's life without praying about it first and making sure we are coming from a place of Godly Love, least we drive them further from God with our missplaced agenda. That said, yes, we need to ask enough questions to clarify their meaning, but one often does not have that opportunity. That said, as Christians, we are all recovering sinners. Our Lord loves us as is, yet never leaves us that way. I have successfully navigated 2 relatives claiming to be lesbiens and 1 gender neutral. All have come out of it, closer to both me and our Lord. Depending on where one is in their walk with him, he seems to always be working on us regarding something. It's not up to us, most of the time, to poke into another's journey unless we have a Spirit nudge. We should listen more, say what the Spirit prompts us to say, and wait on Him. Speaking from a loving heart tempers our words and tone, increasing the likelihood of their actually hearing us. By hearing them, they can often be lead to seeing their causes and finding their true selves in the Lord rather than clutching at things to boost certain feelings over dealing with true issues that once delt with, resolve a multitude of symptoms. Love first. The rest comes in time.😉💞

[@MrMGUIL]

The issue I struggle with is Preston's Revoice conferences. Let's get a bunch of people together who struggle with their sexuality in a hotel conference setting and then worship the Lord intimately. That sounds like it's got temptation written all over it. I mean would we get a bunch of alcoholics together to do a wine tasting event - after all you're supposed to spit out the wine right? I don't know... just processing. Obviously it's a difficult area to deal with.

[@jasone4263]

I don’t agree with this. Same sex attraction EXISTS‼️ Someone admitting that they’re gay is just ACKNOWLEDGING THE TRUTH!!! That’s it! Some gay people who are Christians have chosen to remain celibate! Are they wrong??? Are they supposed to lie to themselves??? You have to live in the truth!

[@joaquinboscheseverri9159]

Saddly there is too much self inflicted ignorance on sexuality, hence their homophobia

[@hahanah1463]

Being gay and acting upon it is a sin

[@sovereigngodlisaloves9525]

Whatever the ongoing sin is, if you're a true Christ-follower, you ought to be willing to give it up for Jesus.

[@Pastor_Grant]

Sprinkle should be marked and avoided we should not give him a platform to spread his heresy. Resist the devil, don't get into a conversation with him.

[@brittybee6615]

You gotta look into the history of “gay assimilationist” versus “gay liberationists”. Basically “gay” was first conceived of as a political identity. The Mattachine Society was founded by a Communist, but a bunch of non-communist same-sex attracted people kinda inadvertently took over it while not understanding what it was supposed to be . Same thing with the word queer. People keep adopting words without understanding the purpose of why those words used.

[@PsychoBible]

Exactly! People have too short of memory.

[@francinemeeks4449]

Yes, agree, Sean. A Christian not practicing/not living that lifestyle shouldn’t define themself as that, at all.

[@onua3963]

I think a fairly decisive semantic argument against Sean's analysis of the term gay is the idea that the sentence, "I am open to a gay relationship" and "I am gay" are informative in different senses. It makes full coherent sense to say, "I am gay", and then to be asked, "and would you be open to a gay relationship." In no context that I have ever seen would this be an uninformative question to ask. If it *is* informative that means it isn't implied by the meaning of the term itself. And this doubly applies to heterosexuals. If I say "I am heterosexual" that is fully consistent with me, for a variety of reasons, not being open to a heterosexual relationship, because these terms are about attraction status.

[@siayang1392]

Everything you do and believe should ultimately hinge on who you are in Christ. So no you cannot be gay. You can struggle with it as we all do with any sin but you are actively resisting it because you are a new creation with a new nature within you.

[@davidfernandez9249]

Hi @SeanMcDowell. The question I have for you, based on this interview (and the forthcoming one), and Preston's conclusions, is is Preston Sprinkle a Heretic, since Rosaria Butterfield has called him one. What do you think about that?

[@ChipsAplentyBand]

I think it's critical to sort out--COMMUNICATIONWISE--what each of us is talking about IN CONTEXT. This is important for determining if someone is advocating for a moral position/announcing allegiance to a moral position vs. is merely describing a characteristic of themselves or someone else. I THINK(?) what we have here, with this topic, is a culture clash. CHRISTIAN culture hears/understands the words "I'm gay" and THINKS they mean "I'm a practicing homosexual and am in favor of homosexuality." AMERICAN CULTURE may either hear the same thing or it may only hear/understand the words to mean "I'm attracted to the same sex only." Remember here that 'identity politics' is a long-overdone bit of Marxist social engineering and its corrosive effects on language/usage continue to filter down through our American culture to varying degrees. For example, someone who hears lots of discussion of 'African American' or 'Native American' or 'undocumented immigrants' identity politics talk (whose purpose is to divide people groups tribally and get everyone to think differently due to the connotations involved in the PC terminology that's pushed) might follow such usage and say they are 'Scottish American' or 'Czech American' although those particular designations carry no particular political baggage or connotations with them. Even though the term DOES carry more in the way of identity politics baggage with it, many of us might well identify ourselves as 'Christian conservatives' for no other reason than we've HEARD that usage on broadcast media and have picked it up inadvertently from them. I do wonder: Is it SO hard for any of us--Christians, Americans, and American Christians--to simply ASK THE NEXT QUESTION if the context is not clear enough in order to tell what the speaker MEANS by the statement "I'm gay"--? Surely this, like various other conversation vagaries, is something we can constructively focus upon without brow-beating each other or making assumptions first and then, only later if at all, asking questions? If someone were to simply say (unwisely, in most conversational contexts, if there is no further clarification given) "I have a murder conviction on my record in the State of Nevada" Such a person could be any of these things: -A genuine murderer who served their time. -A genuine murderer who's wanted by the State of Nevada but who has evaded the authorities so far. -An innocent person who was mistakently/wrongly convicted and who murdered no one. -Someone who plea-bargained a conviction for legal advantage but who was actually innocent and murdered no one. -An innocent person who has suffered mistaken identity with someone else who has the same name and the other person is the actual murderer. Let me recount a short church-related story to illustrate the dangers of ambiguous communication where both parties to the communication are actually innocent. Sean might be interested to know that this particular story involves someone he knows (but who I won't bother to identify here because the identification is irrelevant). At the end of a church service, the pastor of a church turned to the Organist and said "What hymn have you chosen for us to close our service with?" The Organist, fully meaning well, replied "Why?" The pastor, getting visibly irked, replied "Because we'd like to end our service now!" What the pastor didn't realize, and what the Organist didn't anticipate and make clear, was that the Organist's reply was the TITLE of a particular hymn--a hymn titled "WHY?" (whose lyrics begin "Why did they nail Him to Calvary's tree? Why, tell me why, was He there?" etc.) The Organist was referring to this hymn by its TITLE but the pastor was used to being given the NUMBER of the closing hymn instead. When the Organist gave the TITLE of the hymn there was a semantic double meaning to his reply which he didn't anticipate; the pastor misinterpreted that as a direct challenge of some weird sort, and the whole exchange of remarks was a regrettable and unintentional 'comedy of errors' because the Organist was sincerely complying with the pastor's request but the pastor was seemingly hearing a bizarre challenge in response to his legitimate question. Neither party was intentionally at fault and yet MISCOMMUNICATION occurred due to the semantic ambiguity inherent within the exhange of remarks. Fortunately, the ambiguity was then discovered on the spot when the Organist then offered further clarification. But if the Organist had not done so the two conversants might have parted miffed at each other! There's similar ambiguity invovled with "I'm gay" and the danger is that one conversant may be interpreting such remarks within the context of Christian culture but the other may be interpreting them in within the context of the larger, American culture instead. SURELY we can manage to just ASK THE NEXT CLARIFYING QUESTION rather than ASSUME THE WORST about each other when we converse, can't we? And surely we can manage this even better if we're already aware of ambiguous expressions involving the state-of-being verbs "am" or "be" being used with the adjective 'gay.' There's a lot at stake either way with this particular topic. Churches don't want to tacetly approve of people engaging in (here, homosexual) fornication, but neither do they want to socially shun repentant same sex-attracted people who are celibate and who are dedicated/bonafide fellow servants of Jesus Christ. An important related question is this one, however: Why/How can a repentant and genuinely regenerated/saved individual STILL be same sex-attracted as a Christian? CAN they be that, or shouldn't they have become opposite sex-attracted the moment they were saved? This question strikes me as pertinent because, depending on how someone answers it, they will either welcome the still same sex-attracted professing Christian into fellowship or will exclude them from it. Ironically, the principle involved with this pesky question is the same as with other issues as well. For example, take the Bible interpretation question of 'young Earth' creationism vs. 'old Earth' creationism. As an 'old Earth' creationist myself, I've been on the receiving end of some 'shunning as unsaved' by some (not all) 'young Earth' Christians, on the basis of this principle. The reasoning/logic some YECs use is this: Since I think my interpretive model is the 'plain' reading of scripture (i.e., is obivously true to me and therefore it should be obviously true to everyone else as well), then anyone who has thought about the issue at all but who persists in disagreeing with me and my YEC model MUST BE WILLFULLY RESISTING THE AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE ITSELF AND OF GOD HIMSELF. And because willful resistance to God and/or to the Bible is a telltale sign of someone being unsaved, therefore 'old Earth' creationists are at the very least HIGHLY SUSPECT OF BEING UNSAVED. That's how that particular reasoning goes. Something similar happens with the 'gay' question (boiled down here to its essence): Is it possible for a genuine, repentant, regenerated, saved person to experience same-sex attraction any time after they are ACTUALY saved? If they can, then Christians who say this is not possible--no one is saying it's VIRTUOUS--to be consistent then still have to conclude that all such persons MUST be 'faking' their Christianity, just as all non-YECS must be likewise FAKING theirs too. However, if it IS possible then Christians who conclude it isn't are mistakenly sizing up FELLOW CHRISTIANS as unsaved when they're actually saved. This is a key issue at that point because things like church membership and church discipline are contingent upon understanding who is and who is or isn't a Christian and upon who is or isn't sinning. Hardly ANYONE in genuinely Christian circles will say that same-sex attraction isn't sinful, but the reverse isn't reflexive: Opposite-sex attraction isn't always non-sinful (e.g., lusting after a married person of the opposite sex). This is an area Christians often haven't examined thoroughly or teased apart. HOW MUCH of the fruit of the Spirit do we use as a barometer of who all is or isn't saved? WHAT IF a same sex-attracted, repentant, Bible-believing, gospel-embracing, sound theology-manifesting, self-controlling, celibate-living, person exists within a Christian fellowship? Should they be removed from their church membership rolls as unsaved and shunned as willfully sinning due to their ongoing same-sex attraction? The key question is this: Is that ongoing same-sex attraction WILLFUL or not? Can they HELP which sex they are attracted to? Did/Do they CHOOSE to be attracted to the same sex or not? WHAT'S WRONG that they werent' immediately reoriented to opposite-sex attraction at the moment of their salvation if they indeed really are saved? Or must they not actually be saved if the same-sex attraction persists even though there is visible fruit of the Spirit in other areas of their lives? How can there BE visible fruit of the Spirit in their lives if they are unsaved? We believers need to come to grips with such questions, scripturally and fairly, incuding the YEC vs. OEC type issue questions too (i.e., if a OEC--or, worse, a Theistic Evolution view--truly indicates willful resistance to the authority of God and the Bible, then shouldn't OECs and TE's alike be 'church disciplined' out of all YEC churches as 'unrepentant sinners?'')

[@gypsysoul279]

I'm a Christian who struggles with smoking ....doesn't mean I'm not saved...as long as you believe in the finished works of Jesus....you are saved period.... you will struggle with sin until you die...either Jesus died for all sins,including homosexulaity or he didn't...

[@hahanah1463]

Lmao what?!?? Gay and smoking hahahaha what

[@TrinitarianPentecostalNectar]

Why is this sin “nuanced” in this way? I dont see the sin of adultery handled with such “care”. We don’t “struggle” to be direct with variance or sorcery? Why this one? Why

[@yarnandgoodcompany5153]

I highly commend the work of David Bennett (“a war of loves”) on this subject. Thoroughly Biblical and compassionate

[@DanSmith01ave]

While I don't completely agree with his side of the argument, he does seem to approach it much better than most on side B. He's far more thoughtful, intellectual and compassionate than most, and at least speaks with some experience

[@Mrs.CGraves]

All people struggle with lust and are called to be disciplined in that. Who you’re attracted to is irrelevant. Identify in Christ Alone. And living, SEEKING, Identifying with things, content, actions, heart, that brings Glory to The Lord.. the desires naturally fade, become something else, and if the desires never leave that is Gods Reasoning and Testimony in that. The Word is clear, God is PERFECTLY CLEAR.. Satan lied and tells People it’s cool to just do what we want and still have fellowship with God. Wrong. Narrow is the Way. Satan lies, kills, destroys and wants to steal your soul from God and bring Emnity (which we can see) between God and Self. Just Focus on Following The Word as it’s written not as we want it to be. Once you been a Christian for some time then you can get into deeper meanings, but follow as written first. Learn obedience and submission to God, and finding Identity in Christ.

[@r.a.panimefan2109]

Lust is a different debate than this. But something u may want to do. Practice sola scriptura And look up the word for lust in the greek. Reference the other uses of it in bible. You will notice something about the actual use of the word scripturally Lust (as sexual desire is part of catholic designation)

[@ChipsAplentyBand]

@@r.a.panimefan2109 Agreed, it's a different debate. Jesus' specific teaching (Matt. 5:27-28) about 'lust' is not a castigation of (opposite-sex) attraction per se, though many people seem to mistake it as that (because in everyday English usage 'lust' is a synonym for 'strong sexual desire'); it's actually about opposite-sex attraction directed toward a MARRIED PERSON--someone who is morally unavailable to the desiring person. It's part of His teaching against ADULTERY specifically. Paul's teaching about opposite-sex attraction that does not involve a married person (1 Cor. 7) is not instruction against ALL opposite-sex attraction but it is about channeling that attraction into the proper context of marriage (cf. Hebrews 13:4). Paul politely avoids castigating anyone for merely HAVING (opposite-sex) sexual attraction in 1 Cor. 7: 7b. If Jesus and/or Paul were preaching against opposite-sex attraction IN GENERAL then SONG OF SOLOMON makes no real sense as part of the Bible. However, it celebrates such attraction within the legitimate context of marriage and obviously God wishes us to read and understand that part of His Word too.

[@r.a.panimefan2109]

@ChipsAplentyBand Bingo. It also helps fill in the story about the catholics saying the song isn't sexual. Catholics think it's a allegory of Jesus and the church... ... lol It's so obvious that's it's sexual it's plain laughable. The catholics ban oral sex.... Um song the juice of his apple tree Um song the juice of her pomegranate I mean come on. Nard is a fragrant plant with small hairs. You rub the hair it releases fragrant perfume. Now what would that be referring too. Lol Catholics may have escaped the gnostic tendency of calling the body evil But fell right into the clutches of the anti sex anti pleasure trap. All denomination have some form or another of gnosticsm Evangelicals and protes have a dualism against free will And against the body. Rapture theology is fairly gnostic. Teaching the body is evil. The catholic Teach pleasure is evil. Which is also gnostic. And weather or not they say on catholic answers that pleasure isn't bad. The fact they openly encourage celibacy in marriage. And openly discourage sexual desire in marriage. Seems to show a bit of ascetic gnostic Ortho. Are very ascetic. But the fact catholics openly discourage pleasure and desire within marriage even tho they at the same time say pleasure isn't evil Shows that they have some type of cognitive dissonance. It shows in how they react to when protes call forced celibacy wrong. Protes are more comfortable with pleasure in marriage but dislike the body more. It's a really messy situation. That comes predominantly from the misunderstanding of mathew 5.28 This verse is entirely about coveting that witch is unlawful. But thanks to ascetics like gerome. And gnostics like augustine infiltration in church fathers.... Ya. We have a mess on our hands

[@debbyhill6080]

Everybody knows a Homosexual or is related to them. It is not love to lie to them. Love is truth. Being accepting is a lie.

[@MusicalRaichu]

Being accepting is following Christ's example and obeying his command. Telling them that their love is a sin is the real lie here as evidenced by the extensively documented litany of harm we've done.

[@JacksonCaesar]

What makes our country the "Divided States of America" as opposed to the United States of America are these five taboo topics: (1) Religion (2) Money (3) Sex (4) Politics (5) Race. Each of these have an identity tied to their hearts and this is how God will judge us (by our hearts). In addition to these identities (when God is not honored) they tend to lean closely to the seven deadly sins. "The Lord hates six things; in fact, seven are detestable to him: arrogant eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that plots wicked schemes, feet eager to run to evil, a lying witness who gives false testimony, and one who stirs up trouble among brothers (Proverbs 6: 16-19)."

[@debbyhill6080]

Didnt watch the whole thing. But, the idea of being saved, while never putting into action of the sin of Homosexuality, while STILL THINKING "I AM GAY, BUT DONT DO IT." Is neglecting the idea of Repentance. First repentance is to deny the Eace of Adam which is the Race of Sinners. The second is to THINK in a repentitive manner & have your flesh follow. If they first put the flesh first & then reconstructs their thinking, that is ok. It must happen as a 2 fold action. I was saved a couple months before I understood the 2and repentance, a man on the radio said "Ask Jesus to show you your heart" & it sent me into a month of remembering each sin & c r.c lying over it.

[@Daz19]

Is it not a false dichotomy? Why must we have a single label for an entire identity? Our identities are multifaceted. Consider ideology, religion, nationality, ethnicity, gender, etc. E.g Being a White, middle-aged, republican, Christian, male, loyal, etc etc (in whatever order order one prefers).

[@abczyx1234]

We live in a fallen world. There wouldn't be much difference in describing (as another example) the challenge of Christians living a fornicating lifestyle outside of marriage. Wouldn't it be helpful to discuss both as the latter sin is far more prevalent in culture yet seemingly overshadowed by the gay lifestyle discussion (especially from the pulpit)?

[@jamesbarksdale978]

I agree that fornication is frequently not addressed. However, there is no pressure for cities and towns to promote Fornication Month and marches, or for libraries to have a Fornicator's Reading Hour for children, or to teach them in our schools that fornication is a normal, acceptable way of life, encouraging them to identify as little fornicators, etc. The list goes on and on. And people wonder why gays aren't sometimes viewed in a very positive light. Well, when they (and I don't mean all gays) stop trying to force society into compliance with their ideology and lifestyle, then maybe things will change.

[@gr8god4u]

You definitely have misunderstanding of divorce being a continuing sin. Scripture says if a man marries a divorced woman he commits adultery. And my understanding of the Greek this committing adultery present perfect meaning that as long as you are married to that divorced woman you are committing adultery and I am aware that there are many who are proud that they are committing adultery on a continuing basis because they are married to a divorced woman. So yes divorce in this context takes on a greater allegiance than to being in Christ.

[@estherjoy6236]

I am a new creation in Christ Jesus! Ezekiel 36:26 My identity is Christ!

[@jesusislord75767]

You should have Preston debate Rosaria. That would be epic.

[@WalkerFrankeArt]

I think it would be good, but Rosaria refuses to have a conversation with Preston.

[@jesusislord75767]

@ Really? Where has she said that?

[@WalkerFrankeArt]

@jesusislord75767 Preston has talked about it that he has reached out. Iirc, her husband or elders don't think it is a good idea so she's submitting to that decision. I might have some details incorrect, though

[@SeanMcDowell]

It's not going to happen. Nonetheless, I think you'll enjoy this clip and the full two-hour+ convo that comes out early next week.

[@e.m.8094]

​@@SeanMcDowellLooking forward to the full discussion episode!

[@psharelater172]

Is it possible to say "I am me" in a way that supersedes an identity in Christ? Is it possible to say "I am not me" in a way that rejects an identity in Christ? At some point there will be paradox. I am schizophrenic. Is that placing a broken identity above Jesus? There is not a thing we "possess" that is not ultimately stripped. The moment I was a father--I had to start letting go of my children. Our wholeness involves the embrace of all of us; and the laying down of all of us. Often at the same time.

[@MichaelGreen-hk3mx]

Preston sprinkle: how to speak for 30 minutes without saying anything.

[@White0ni]

Being gay isn't a sin... Fornication with the same sex is... equating the two is deceitful and wrong Anyone who's struggling with an unprovoked urge to sin but chooses christ should stand proud

[@MusicalRaichu]

So you think gay people should wait until married? When most straight people don't? okay ....

[@terence4427]

Once a person identifies as "gay," it becomes, for many, their essence. I don't think your sexuality should be the thing that defines who you are if you are, in fact, a Christian.

[@debbyhill6080]

You didnt make Man nor the Laws.

[@stevegoble8211]

Insisting on identifying oneself as being “gay” ontologically, is limiting and unhelpful for us followers of Jesus. As a result, we can remain stuck developmentally, and not fulfilled as a man or woman relationally and spiritually. From age 24 to 40, I lived homosexually, gender confused and settling for a limiting gay identity. Taking on a gay identity was like encasing myself in concrete with no ability or room to change. The gay aspect needed to be put off, to grow as a man; to turn from my sinful tendencies and patterns; to grapple with underlying, contributing factors, unmet needs and pain; to discover and embrace the relational good of my maleness; and, thus, to increase my capacity for healthy relating. I know this to be true for many other followers of Jesus. Eph. 4:22-24, Rom. 12:1-2. Many of us vulnerable ones experiencing same-sex attraction or gender confusion, are being misled to syncretize Christian faith with secular, pagan culture, and not engage with sanctification/transformation in Jesus Christ.

[@NickGagnon-y7e]

But there is nothing bad or wrong with being gay at all.

[@godlyentertainmentlive9161]

Not going to sugar coat it. If God didn't want gay organisms at all he would design human bodies AND animal bodies without the capacity to become or to be born gay. No human is born a blank slate. You are the sum of your parents and to an even greater extent the sum of your ancestors. Your dna is an archive of every person in your bloodline. Not just their appearance but also behaviors. We inherit behaviors and instincts. So if a person is born straight, or gay that is because of the behaviors they inherited from their predecessors. That could be your parents or the ones who came before them. Of God did not want gays he could simply snap his fingers and removed the mechanisms in our body that would even allow it to happen.

[@Nyamala]

One man put it clearly You cannot claim to love God then in turn love sin

[@MusicalRaichu]

I know. It's a shame these people love their sin of homofobia that they put it above loving their gay brothers and sisters. And whoever fails to love his brother fails to love God.

[@Nyamala]

@@MusicalRaichu Just to be clear, am on their side. We love and are commanded by Christ to love everyone. At the same time, we are commanded to reject and condemn sin. Calling yourself a gay Christian is the same as calling yourself a thief Christian. You cannot identify yourself with your sin.

[@MusicalRaichu]

@ A person has no control over their orientation. It is what it is and neither you nor they can do anything about it. Calling oneself a gay Christian or gay Buddhist or gay car mechanic is simply stating reality. Condeming what is inherently harmless beyond one's control has done incalculable harm. It's documented in numerous studies so you cannot deny it. The negative attitude of parts of the church is the real sin. You cannot claim to love God when you actively subject children to anguish, illness and death.

[@Nyamala]

@@coso4280 The problem with today's Christians is that when you call out their sin you are said to be judgemental. You can't just take correction as is. One thing atleast I know is, God is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow. His dislike for sin will forever remain the same no matter how you feel about it

[@coso4280]

Can you call yourself a Christian and not procreate? How much correction does that deserve?

[@rebeccahayhurst442]

It’s concerning to me the sense of moral outrage iI am reading in disagreeing with Preston, in whether it’s okay for a Christian who struggles with same sex attraction to call them self gay would be right or not, and not also have the same concern or moral outrage for ways that people who struggle with sane sex attraction etc has been sinned against by the Christian community. Grace and truth go hand in hand. I think a similar comparison might be a person who is a recovering alcoholic and a Christian. Some Christian’s would say, your a new creation don’t say you’re an alcoholic, others would say, the reality is they will struggle with that the rest of their life. I think the reality is there is complexity in both issues. In the Christian community we have approached this issue in my option as more of a culture war and I dint think that’s way Jesus would approach it. We need to speak the truth in love and with wisdom without compromise. People who are fully devoted to Jesus and the scriptures disagree in how to go about that.

[@PeterSneddon-e8n]

If a man claims to be in Christ he is a new Creation. The Old has gone!

[@debbyhill6080]

Someone asked "Who will cast the first stone?" Here is reason. It is written, "THE SPIRITUAL MAN CAN JUDGE ALL THINGS." It is our position to declare the Word of God. By judging what is a sin that leads to death (Hell) is to invite a person to repent & become obedient, it is not judging that persons eternal destination or their worth. Sis is sin and MUST be repented of. Salvation & God are not jokes.

[@debbyhill6080]

@coso4280 Most judging of THINGS is usually personal, BUT to discuss the THING on a public entity is truely not judging any person. HOWEVER, if a person sees it or hears it, hopefully they will be convicted in their hearts & hopefully will seek Salvation. BUT, to simply put a blanket statement out about ALL JUDGING, is error. In the Greek, the Word Judeth, according my Strongs, it says "Scrutinize, investigate, interrogate & determine. # 350 in the Greek dictonary. In the Hebrew from Job # 1777 says "to strive, contend, execute, minister judgement, to plead" # 8199 from Proverbs. PSZLMS & Job says "Avenge, condemn, contend, defend, execute, plead, reason & rule." I think being a mature Christian and "Knowing the right moment" are extremely important. While we dont want to run people off, telling what God calls wrong, can be done in a delicate way, but this world could never do well without the Law & knowing what it is.

[@debbyhill6080]

@coso4280 And By the way, Homosexuality was taught to mankind by the Unholy Watchers. This from the book of Enoch, along with all Occultism. When we are Born Again, we are called to repent. I have a daughter that told me she knows she wasn't born that way, that it's her choice, but she still calls herself a Lesbian. I have not spoken with her or seen her for 2 years. She is my youngest & this is killing me

[@debbyhill6080]

@coso4280 "However by no one is judged" says nobody can judge a Christian but God.

[@debbyhill6080]

@coso4280 That is a personal thing between the 2 of us. I wont discuss it, but it has nothing to do with her choice. Before we had a falling out, she came to me in Feburary saying "I'm sick of the snow & I'm moving to Tucson!" Are you Born Again?

[@debbyhill6080]

@coso4280 Ok here is the scripture to which I refer. Will explain at the bottom. John 3 New King James Version The New Birth 3 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” When we are born of the water, we inherit the spirit of Adam, which has been condemned by God. Being Born Again, asking Jesus into our hearts, puts a new Spirit into our being, The Holy Spirit. There are several places old & new testament that speaks of God Jesus, will put His Spirit in us. The first Repentance is to repent of the race of Sinners, AKA, Adam to join the Race of Jesus.

[@loribayne8834]

We cannot identify as both. You're a former "sinner", but now you are a follower of Christ by what Christ has done for you.

[@NickGagnon-y7e]

You can easily be both.

[@MusicalRaichu]

Lots of people are both. You can be gay and become a Christian. Or you can grow up as a Christian and reach adolesence and discover you're gay. Or bi or ace or pan. All people regardless of orientation are called to repent from sin, but love isn't a sin. Rather, sin is failure to love. Even the Bible 1 Cor 7.7, Mat 19.12 recognizes diversity, just they didn't know about gay people back then.

[@VicNorth777]

Up next…. 13 minutes on The cultural appropriation of the word “abomination”

[@andrecooper3663]

I think in someways “gay Christian“ is a shorthand for a part of a person‘s multiple identities. For example, if you say, you are a gay Christian (male), you do not have to explain to people that you don’t have a girlfriend, that you’re not married, that you’re not looking for a girlfriend, that you’re not interested in being set up with a female, that if you have problems with my sexual orientation, you know upfront and we don’t have to play any games. You know not to use homosexual epithets against me or other people while I am present; you know not to invite me to your church if they will not accept me; you know not to associate me if you do not like people with my sexual orientation. All of this and more is encapsulated in the short phrase “gay Christian”. The phrase, “gay Christian” may be more helpful for str8 people than it is for the gay Christian. Of course, the term not only allows the gay Christian to put all of their cards on the table, it also allows gay people who are not Christians know that God loves them and will accept them just as they are without one plea. The Holy Spirit will then make any changes in that person, when He so chooses.

[@TrinitarianPentecostalNectar]

We are new creatures in Christ. Any attempt to self identify in any other way outside of Christ is a road of defeat and destruction of our faith.

[@emalee8366]

Saying gay Christians can't exist has a few problems. For one, it defines Christianity as one specific kind of Christianity. That's like saying you can't be a Christian and believe in slavery or abortion. Plenty of people have a different lense to read the Bible through, including most Christians worldwide. Christianity isn't a mostly 20th century American thing. Then there's identifying as gay based on same sex attraction whether or not they behave on it. Fortunately they get around to covering this about half way through. Finally, the Bible's sexual ethic is generally ignored by the same people who use the Bible as a proof text to oppose homosexual behavior. And the way the texts are used is inconsistent.

[@debbyhill6080]

Jesus defines what it is, NOT MANKIND.

[@kstevenson3504]

What did Paul mean when he said: "I am a Pharisee?" This is the type of thing you have to wrestle with. I didn't like the idea of being "gay." i've never identified as being gay. BUT it is useful. When I'm talking to someone who is LGBTQ, I can throw them for a loop and say: "I'm GAY." "I'm LGBTQ as well." This gives me an opportunity to see where they are coming from BEFORE I explain my stance as a Christian. A friend of mine's daughter came out as trans. She has known me her whole life. I told her I was LGBTQ. She was so shocked. This allowed me to establish some common ground. It allows me to get a survey of the land before i go jumping right in.

[@hahanah1463]

Your friends daughter is mentally ill..seek her help well unless she has balls then seek him help

[@morgspnc]

“Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to fight about words. This is useless and leads to the ruin of those who listen.”

[@Danybella]

Exactly -- waste of time.

[@rebekahearly1144]

That idea of competing identities is massively problematic as expressed by Preston - if our sin is competing with our Christianity, it must always lose, and lose much more than coming second or third or whatever. It must be obliterated. Even if we have to repent over and over and struggle against it our entire lives this side of eternity. To me, the idea of identifying ourselves by our sin is like saying ‘Jesus isn’t quite enough for me - He’s my Lord, but just not on this.’ This is not a term that can be redeemed.

[@christopherflux6254]

You can acknowledge your sexual orientation, but that shouldn’t become your identity.

[@jockyoung4491]

Nobody thinks that is their only identity, but clearly it can be important. Saying you are hungry doesn't make their your identity any more than saying you are gay does.

[@alexcaraballo3189]

I put it like this: 1 Corinthians 6:9 ESV - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, NOR IDOLATERS , nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, Isn't it interesting that idolatry is lumped in amongst the sexual sins? Why is that? Because anything that comes between you and Christ Jesus is idolatry. So to call yourself a "gay Christian" is to put your sexuality in front of Christ, and Paul says in galatians that we are no longer who we were, but we are one with Christ Jesus.

[@MusicalRaichu]

Except that the translation you quoted does not reflect the original Greek. The fact that it doesn't even makes sense should have alerted you. Homoxesuality is a trait you possess not something you "practise". The anachronism since homoxesuelity was only discovered 150 years ago should also be a red flag that it's a mistranslation. Unfortunately it's this very error of translation that has caused the mess the church is in and the incalculable harm, illness, suffering and deaths of so many people especially vulnerable children and their families. Get over it. It's not a sin.

[@NickGagnon-y7e]

Awful verse.

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@NickGagnon-y7e So you don't have a problem with secs abbuse?

[@NickGagnon-y7e]

@@MusicalRaichu Yes I do. I never said I didnt.

[@MusicalRaichu]

@ Oh OK. That's the issue in 1 Cor 6.9. In those days men, ironically often straight married men, would engage in secs abbuse because it was considered manly. Sadly, most victims were enslaved boys. So it's not an "awful verse", it's about what the 20th cent church was doing and covered up, meanwhile using the verse to go after innocent people.

[@buffalobill3671]

Not making an equivalency, just thinking aloud. 1) Replace the word gay with pedophile. 2) why advertise if you’re not practicing, Alcoholics (Ex drinkers), drug addicts (Ex users), etc. don’t boast of their previous proclivities, but Praise God for Delivering them from those sins. Or, perhaps that’s an oversimplification.

[@martin9410]

Rather unfair. A pedophile is someone attracted to children in a usual "serial manner." For those who are struggling with their same-sex attraction, often not involving children, to close the door of grace to them based upon such ignorance is wrong and sad. Do you ever lie...ever swear...ever gossip? Then call yourself a Liar, or a gossip, etc. And I know you've done some of those things. And though alcoholics don't boast of struggling with alcoholism, they are free to admit, "I'm an alcoholic." Rehab was called "Rahab the Harlot" in James chapter two. And it's not always about "advertising when you're not practicing". It's about seeking, reaching out, and supporting others going through the same thing. This is why believers, rightly so, are accused of being unloving and uncaring.

[@buffalobill3671]

@ LOL, Did you read my post???

[@melaniexoxo]

@@buffalobill3671 Yeah it appears that they did and they responded well 😂

[@buffalobill3671]

@@melaniexoxo 😂😂, I’m sorry………..

[@LarryRix]

Where does sexual lines and immorality come from? Ancient gods and Genesis 6:1-4 and fallen Watchers and dead giants, demons. Look up Inana who is still behind all forms of sexual immorality. Stop playing games. Learn.

[@LarryRix]

Look up and READ ENOCH ... get Jerry Franklin's 1 Enoch Study Guide and read it ALL!

[@F_Cad]

I'm always amazed at how you two continue to talk about being a gay Christian, what I am. Who should your audience be asking about this experience? You or me? You have no place to talk about what is a personal walk of faith a gay Christian has. All you do is speculate, talk to broken "ex-gays" who scratch your itchy ears, and entertain progressive "preachers" you know you can best with the Word of God. Someone like myself terrifies you, a born-again, BIBLE-BELIEVING, Believer who walks in his faith daily and who has been in a Christ-centered marriage with another man for over 35 years. I should be the one your audiences go to on this question of what it means to be a gay Christians insted of you two, that way they might actually learn something that comes from the horse's mouth.

[@sidwhiting665]

You cannot be in a Christ centered marriage with another man any more than I could be in a Christ centered marriage with 2 or more women. Christ himself set the standard of what a Christ centered marriage is: one man, one woman, for a lifetime.

[@F_Cad]

@sidwhiting665 Says you. And maybe you might have missed how the early Bible saints had multiple wives and endless concubines. I've refuted the "marriage is only between one man and women" argument, Biblically, enough. The scholarship is there if you want to look. And it still doesn't take away from me saying to go to an actual gay Christian like myself instead of going to the two above who don't have a real life experience clue.

[@joaquinboscheseverri9159]

The amount of lack of empathy, of ignorance and homophobia is huge. So happy for you and your husband!

[@F_Cad]

@@joaquinboscheseverri9159 God truly bless you.

[@Contrarian-v7p]

@@F_Cad And this. You are definitely the obsessed one.

[@natashalucas5082]

🇹🇹 Not gay ..new creatures in Christ.... what about dying to self...what about being made new??? We keep the sins we like/love more that God and sometimes make them our identity...

[@coso4280]

Pressuring gay people into straight marriages, usually ends bad for all involved.

[@Memedisciple]

There is going to be a male christian that will just be attracted to other men. Which should be fine as long as they reject the temptation and live a life of Celebacy.

[@jockyoung4491]

It is none of your business who other people love.

[@MusicalRaichu]

It's not a "temptation", it's a harmless natural variation. If they're not hurting anyone and in a loving relationship, we know love fulfils all God's commands Rom 13.8-10.

[@nathanielalderson9111]

We cannot. Bible is clear. (Kjv, niv, esv, youngs, geneva, nasb, amp) Hebrew and greek are specific and clear. This lifestyle is opposite of good. Captial Ev.

[@JW-tg1nn]

@@nathanielalderson9111 agreed.

[@MusicalRaichu]

You're bluffing. I read the Bible in the original languages and came to the unmistakable conclusion that being gay is perfectly fine.

[@nathanielalderson9111]

​@ "You're bluffing" lol. That's an odd reply to give me. And you appear to need to read and comprehend "the original Hebrew" better. Genesis 2:24 Leviticus 18:22 Joshua 22:5 Matthew 5:28 Acts 15:20 Hebrews 13:4 1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 Revelation 21:8 Matt 8:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. I am looking at a screen that says it has 100 verses on sexual immorality. So no. I'm not bluffing. I'm repeating faithfully the words that come from the One who made us. And He says don't do it.

[@nathanielalderson9111]

@ ​ @MusicalRaichu "You're bluffing" lol. That's an odd reply to give me. And you appear to need to read and comprehend "the original Hebrew" better. Genesis 2:24 Leviticus 18:22 Joshua 22:5 Matthew 5:28 Acts 15:20 Hebrews 13:4 1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 Revelation 21:8 Matt 8:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. I am looking at a screen that says it has 100 verses on sexual immorality. So no. I'm not bluffing. I'm repeating faithfully the words that come from the One who made us. And He says don't do it.

[@nathanielalderson9111]

​ @MusicalRaichu "You're bluffing" lol. That's an odd reply to give me. And you appear to need to read and comprehend "the original Hebrew" better. Genesis 2:24 Leviticus 18:22 Joshua 22:5 Matthew 5:28 Acts 15:20 Hebrews 13:4 1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 Revelation 21:8 Matt 8:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. I am looking at a screen that says it has 100 verses on sexual immorality. So no. I'm not bluffing. I'm repeating faithfully the words that come from the One who made us. And He says don't do it.

[@snakeyjaake]

Is his name really Sprinkle

[@jimmyreinstein9993]

Yes. He’s great!

[@cr5195]

this converstaion shows how weak our preachers have become.

[@MusicalRaichu]

Being gay does not compete with being a follower of Jesus any more than being straight, ace or bi. The reason the social identity exists is stigmatization. If you accepted everyone as they came with no assumption about which gender they have the capacity to love, then it wouldn't need a social identity.

[@cleverhippo8251]

The capacity to love? God says you must love everyone, even your enemy. What you are talking about is sexual attraction. Unfortunately the world has confused this with love.

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@cleverhippo8251 Being attracted to someone doesn't excuse you from loving them. It's common for couples gay or straight to treat each other with mutual respect, kindness and faithfulness and be committed to one another's welfare. According to scripture, that's sufficient to obey God Rom 13.8-10. God gives people different gifts cf 1Cor 7.7. A few don't need intimacy with others but most do. Of those, some have the capacity to love men, some to love women, and some to love either. It's nothing they or you can do anything about other than accept it.

[@anthonybarber3872]

What makes you say that?

[@debbyhill6080]

Jesus made Man AND the Laws.

[@MusicalRaichu]

@ Say what specifically?

[@bettychristy650]

1Cor. 6:9-11 "But you were washed you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. First off being an American and identifying as an American is not sin and will not lead to sin. identifying as a gay man/lesbian is very problematic imo because it sets the stage for the next level. "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he" Proverbs 23:7

[@MusicalRaichu]

Considering how Americans just voted in a convicted criminal to lead them, I'd be careful making statements about it not being sinful. But neither identifying as the orientation you really are nor being in a loving relationship in accordance with your orientation is a sin.

[@TylerCampbell-me1ow]

Very unhelpful discussion

[@anushkasekkingstad1300]

What would christians do if they stopped trying to tell everyone how to lead their lives? perhaps they could spend less time complaining about homosexuals who happily lead fulfilling lives married to the partner they love. Using the time to address their nonsensical claims about imaginary magical beings and stopping christian clergy from indulging in child rape and other heinous crimes committed against innocent children foolishly entrusted to their care, might give their deeply ignorant, superstitious nonsense a shred of credibility.