Christopher Hitchens on Palestine

[@Meero1993]

Great Man... Will truely miss his speaches... Love from a Palestinian...

[@boiragirules]

Really? However he had been a serious critique of islam, how do you reconcile that?

[@adamharrisakarexon9492]

Did this person mention Islam? What if he's an atheist already? He's Palestinian that's why you made that assumption.

[@Macconator2010]

boiragirules Yes he was very critical of Islam, as anyone with a brain would be. Following through on cultural relativism to the nth degree, where you make excuses for the most fascistic religious ideology at this current point in time, simply because it's foreign or behind the curb, isn't very principled. We have a responsibility as thinking secularists and atheists to criticise bad ideas such as Islam. This does not mean we advocate for Christianity or Judaism, believe it or not, each conversation is contained. When criticising Christianity I don't see many people bring up Islam, except maybe for the delusional racist Christian fundementalists themselves, but reverse that, have a conversation criticising Islam, you can barely blink before someone brings up how bad Christianity is as well. All these religions are a leech on humanity, a poison, and in addition to climate change, religion is the next serious existential crisis we face. Christopher's criticisms of Islam are spot on.

[@blacky93able]

@@boiragirules Leila Khaled it's a palestinian activist and an atheist. I don't see the contradiction. In fact, I believe that religion, in addition to ethno-nationalism, is damaging a future just peace agreement for all

[@icysaracen3054]

Not all Palestinians are Muslims - During the Cold war, a lot of the PLO were secular nationalists and Marxists with even Christian members. Hamas was a minor religious wing that was secretly supported by Mossad in order to undermine the PLO - they knew that Islam had an anti secular agenda and supporting Hamas would cause infighting. However that would fail as Hamas are also regarded a nationalist party (Like a European Christian party)@@boiragirules

[@kevanbodsworth9868]

" A stupid idea " as a keen historian that is always my first reaction to that project ,

[@globeparasite9381]

As a keen historian too I always avoid to talk about the alternative to that idea.

[@MrShnig]

​@@globeparasite9381 Were there only 2 possible outcomes?

[@sidbullet1]

Cry about it

[@nigelsheppard625]

And what of the second point? Now it's created, there's no way it can or should be dismantled.

[@kevanbodsworth9868]

@@nigelsheppard625 Not strictily true but present Isrealis would have to lower their sights a lot , Still, the reality of my post is where negotiations should begin . The realty being a horrendous crime has been commited aginst The Palestinians since 1950 and negotiations should begin in that humble basis for the Isrealis , .. The start ? Shift those settelrs at once---Just show good will and move the settlers.,

[@z1az285]

brilliant man... absolutely brilliant. he distils facts right down to the bone. there is no room for ambiguity after listening to him. none

[@eltonron1558]

He didn't take his historical facts far back enough, and ignored the results of world War.

[@urmomma2688]

True. Watching this 2 min vid gets you the same amount of knowledge as years of nuanced historical study

[@billthestinker]

Yes, but now what?

[@jenniferlynn3537]

Well, the land which became Israel wasn’t really farmland - or much of anything else at the time Israel was created. Also, Hitchens implies that a Palestine would exist right now but for Israel not wanting it - which is patently NOT true. It was the Palestinians - specifically Yassir Arafat - who refused to accept a two-state solution - it’s all-or-nothing for them.

[@z1az285]

@@jenniferlynn3537 Tantura happened long before Arafat. Context is important. You are not entirely wrong, but the way you frame it is.

[@sarychm6061]

He is missed, rest in peace Hitchens. A leading intellectual when we took them for granted. All we have now are buffoons.

[@someoneelse.2252]

The biggest buffoon, happens to be a cretin by the name of Justin Trudeau.

[@juantotten3974]

You know he was an atheist

[@slinkyoz]

@@juantotten3974Anyone with more than two brain cells is.

[@xanthromera]

Now we have Jordan Peterson. I would have paid anything to see Hitch destroy Peterson in a debate on anything.

[@shawqiha]

It's hard to overstate the huge impact this man would have in today's society if he were still here.. would have loved to have him on our side in the censorship debate. RIP Hitchens

[@4exgold]

Charlie Rose didnt have the intellect to deal with Hitchens' line of thought. He was terrified of agreeing with anything even remotely critical of Zionism.

[@yusefkhan1752]

Hitchens is a Zionist

[@captainnutsack8151]

Another under-25 edgelord who feels cool using the term "Zionism" while being completely ignorant of the actual history

[@stevemuldoon9451]

Lots of people are terrified of being critical of Zionism. The Israeli lobby is very strong. He would have been falsely accused of antisemitism. His career probably would have been over.

[@innertubez]

Just as many are terrified of saying anything even remotely critical of radical Islam

[@kevanbodsworth9868]

@@innertubez That problem has grown since the massive refugee problem caused in part by Isreali or Zionist illegal expansion , Founding a largely Jewish state in a great majority muslim area is a dumb arogant project, , Then exaserbated by the breaking of the treaties which established Isreal --Stop lying Isreal ,Face facts or it will never be settled, .

[@jM-ez7fq]

Christopher hitchens what a legend of a man...sadly missed

[@OKnotOK09]

Wrong on Iraq though.

[@FreeBrunoPowroznik]

​@@OKnotOK09Yeah, turned to the darkside on Iraq. He knew the US/UK led sanctions killed more Iraqis than Saddam (1 million), BEFORE the war and he knew it would be a bloodbath. But MI6 either found kompromat on him, or he became a grifter. Either way, he's complicit in the deaths of 1 million more Iraqis for cheerleading the invasion.

[@emersonrex820]

No one else can put things so succinctly as the late Mr hitchens. Be it religion, human rights or simply right vs wrong

[@Blackberry21838]

Hitchens would be appalled at what's going on right now, but he wouldn't be surprised.

[@Yeahnookay]

I doubt he would be appalled. The natural state of the atheistic man is war. The civilized atheist is, at best, an agnostic in search of a creator.

[@aklem001]

Still relevant

[@bazjones5282]

Yet you live where you do Everyone is always on someone's land, there is the hypocrisy.

[@badcow2]

@@bazjones5282 It isn't hypocrisy if you weren't the one to do it. Your ancestors can sin, but that doesn't mean you are responsible, nor does it mean you should support others who do the same. The whole point is learning from the past and avoiding those mistakes. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

[@bazjones5282]

@@badcow2 Really think about what you have said and apply that to the situation for everyone. Happy to benefit from wrongs of the past but want to condemn others for the same actions. You are only reinforcing exactly what I stated.

[@EdwardHohenheim]

​@@bazjones5282The difference is Isreals doing it in modern days. Sped.

[@bazjones5282]

@@EdwardHohenheim Explain how people claiming to be from a country that has never existed have rights over land that belongs to an official country.

[@Lanooski]

I’ve found a lotta people all but worship this man….till this comes up. He had a handful of things I disagree with him on but this isn’t one of them.

[@zfesilva4605]

Missing from this clip is something I'm curious about: what lengths should both sides go to defending their now not-so-new reality? An intellectual stance is cold comfort for those living inside the Experiment.

[@vacuumboy617]

More people need to see this video.

[@jamesjacoby6740]

You're right..then they can witness Hitch for what he is..a liar!

[@soyoltoi]

James Jacoby Why is he a liar?

[@Mr.Nobody_97]

Now more than ever

[@GORO911]

It's getting more recommended now as of Oct 2024. 12 years after your comment.

[@waynewanderer]

2024 . this man just KNEW!!

[@FredOlv]

I mean, this conflict has been going on for ages, but people are only now realizing how dumb the idea of Israel as a state really is.

[@waynewanderer]

@@FredOlv wasn`t it always obvious though? in order to create a new state you MUST displace others that are already living there surely?? it`s naive to think that could be a mutually happy situation for both parties.............. and yet here we are

[@ulala9729]

@@FredOlv how dumb USA let muslim to takeover Dearborn Michigan

[@joshhaddock88]

I mean, this issue has existed in various forms since the foundation of Isreal in the mid 20th century, but it's core has remained the same.

[@juleshitchen9089]

I love the way he's so well educated, with his wonderful articulation and seemingly perfect reasoning there's no wonder why people take his word as gospel.

[@jamesjacoby6740]

He's indoctrinated..not educated.

[@Macconator2010]

James Jacoby Indoctrinated hahahahaha what a load of shite

[@KornelBotondSoos]

@@jamesjacoby6740 you have no clue how how incorrect you are. perhaps you meant opinionated. highly educated beyond most folks comprehension.

[@guydegroof2217]

@@jamesjacoby6740 Not educated? Poor man, do your homework on Hitchens first. Your ad hominem is a non argument already and contributes zero to the debate.

[@Kozinskowitzky]

He makes himself sound smart but he conveniently glossed over so many important details. He failed to mention that the majority of Islamic countries in the Middle East kicked out their Jewish populations. He failed to mention that close to half of Israel’s Jewish population are Mizrahi meaning they are Jewish families that have lived in middle eastern countries for centuries

[@raggledaggle721]

The interview of Ghassan Kanafani is more relevant.

[@SeanCSHConsulting]

your comment, less so

[@ReesesCupsable]

Nothing but respect for this man. The world needs more people like him.

[@santaclaus0815]

Thought experiment: Let's assume Israel would not have been founded where it is today but somewhere else like let's say New Mexico, south Africa, India, ... Would it have created friction with the people already living there? Of course it would have. It's a beautiful idea to give land to the Jewish minority of the world. But in order to do that kicking people who already live there out of their homes is crazy (using diplomatic language). I mean with the same logic you could found an Uyghur state or Kurdish state in Israel. I wonder if the Israelis would mind.

[@cas1652]

It's not the correct analogy. If you make the analogy correct then you'll understand why the behavior of Israel is justified.

[@RanLavi]

You realize even America was founded on the lands where Indians lived, right? Also, Jews lived in Israel, few times during history, and were "kicked out" as you say. Things aren't black and white. And the grey solution of two states(like proposed by the UN in 1947) was declined by the arabs(which already got Jordan) and they decided to start a war. Thought experiment: Let's all try to live in peace.

[@KJtip-a-ton]

What is now Uganda, Cyprus, and Argentina are some of the other places that were considered as possible locations for a new home for Jews, and of course as you pointed out would’ve caused friction, especially since the Jewish diaspora has no claim or connection to those places. The UN agreeing to allow Jews to rebuild their homeland after the defeat of ottoman empire wasn’t just a beautiful idea, it was the right thing to do. And, it didn’t call for, or require anyone to be kicked out of their homes. The Arabs of Palestine and neighboring lands chose war and continue to do so.

[@santaclaus0815]

@@KJtip-a-ton It is a legend that "the Jews" have their home there. The Bible is not a history book and many Israelis look more like Scandinavians than people typical of the Middle East. According to modern law and decency, a claim to territory must be proven - which no one can do because it is practically impossible to prove ancestors who owned property there 2000 years ago. Moreover, in view of historical events, they would no longer have any right to it. The most famous example: the Romans sent the Jews into the diaspora - and rightly so, because Jews instigated several bloody uprisings in which thousands of innocent civilians died unnecessarily. However, historically speaking, this was not an expulsion but merely the destruction of the political power of Jewish culture in the Roman Empire. The migration was a free decision, and many Jews did not even migrate from the area at the time. According to Jewish belief, returning to the Holy Land is only permitted with the arrival of the Messiah. Zionism ignores this divine requirement. That is why real Jews reject Zionism. Zionism does not have its roots in Judaism but in Protestant Christianity, centuries ago. Zionism is the pretty other side of the coin of anti-Semitism: Christians wanted to drive the Jews out of Europe (push). Zionism lures them to "Israel" (pull). Zionism is a silly and brutal ideology that has created an artificial pseudo-nation (with an alleged Jewish culture/ethnicity that did not even exist at the time) that does not even have a proper constitution to this day. It is as if I were to drive people out of Central Europe today because I want to revive the ancient Celtic culture. I am not against Jews, nor against Israel's right to exist (the state has existed for too long for that, so people who grew up there should not be driven out of their homeland). But the fact is that one should think carefully about whether one should even argue with history, because there will never be peace that way. Peace can only be achieved by renouncing revenge, i.e. by emotionally ignoring what has happened. That is hard, but some people can do it. Unfortunately, they are murdered by fanatics on their own side, such as Rabin. The aggressiveness of the conflict came with the arrival of the Zionists there after the end of the First World War. Before that, Arabs lived alongside Christians and Jews in peace. At a certain point, the British occupying forces of the Protectorate prohibited the mass immigration of Zionists in order to prevent domestic tensions from escalating. Zionists even wanted to make a pact with Hitler's Germany against their common enemy: the British. Fortunately for the Zionists, the British gave up the leadership of the Protectorate after the Second World War and with the help of their American Zionist Christian friends (Evangelicals), a creeping but steady ethnic cleansing began in favor of "Israel." The worst thing for Zionists would be peace, because then they would lose their most important weapon: the role of victim.

[@gladiater56]

Your thought experiment is based on a false premise though, it assumes that the level of conflict is going to be the same in every hypothetical as it is in reality when that certainly is not going to be the case. There's no getting around the fact that if the Israelis give up the fight tomorrow, Israel would be destroyed and if the Palestinians gave up the fight tomorrow there would be a Palestinian nation. The only thing holding back the Palestinians are the Palestinians.

[@Hhuhbvhjbhjb]

Didn’t always agree with him but love the the man. Need him back

[@mhkpt]

Wonder what he'd say when faced with the carnage these days

[@michaelarmstrong5065]

Like Jane fonda,Joan Baez st al he would say nothing.He was the worse kind of hypocrite. Bash Christians and he will get a lot of attention and press bash Israel and he will disappear without an income source

[@blackmore4]

He'd be totally in support of Israel. When the choice is civilisation (Israel) or religious fascism ('Palestine'), it's a no brainer.

[@MattWGAllan]

​@@blackmore4He literally called Israel messianic in the video you just watched, genius. On principle it's obvious that he wanted Palestinians to have their own state and he'd be appalled at the genocide happening.

[@bertilknudsen]

@@MattWGAllan Did Hitchens ever define «Palestinians»?

[@MattWGAllan]

@@bertilknudsen are you confused?

[@marhabaiktara6133]

the one true intense voice of reason, that is him: Chri Hitchens

[@GoogleAccount-qe1uy]

good ol Chri

[@jamesjacoby6740]

Reason and Hitch is ironic.

[@ISOTruth18]

The minute you begin to listen to only one voice, you are lost

[@GodMovesAllThings]

He’s wrong on this

[@4exgold]

No, he was a big time flip-flopper. He opposed the Zionist invasion of Palestine (correctly in my opinion), but then agreed with the despicable Anglo-American invasion of Iraq, which lead to the deaths and maiming and displacement of millions of Iraqis. If that's not cognitive dissonance, I dont know what is.

[@Power_Prawnstar]

I dont agree with him, but I do listen to him

[@innocentbystander6620]

World needs more people to listen, more conversation, find more common ground.

[@Conorize]

This is a very intellectually mature take.

[@ChristAliveForevermore]

This man was prescient. The people are witnessing to it much more forcibly now, 20 years later.

[@kookamunga2458]

Hitchens was right about religion is to blame for all the crap going on in the mideast.

[@racheledwards4770]

And the rest of the world… Don’t forget a certain Christmas inventing religion that justified colonial imperialism and is the basis of Zionism in the first place! Look up Noam Choampsky’s take on that…

[@meganbaker9116]

Nonsense. A knowledge of history doesn’t bear that out. Arabs and Jews got along in Palestine before it became clear that the latter were intent on land theft. Jews have also peacefully existed in most of the other countries of the region. It’s Israel that has created so much strife. The Palestinians don’t hate Jews; they hate colonizers. You would too.

[@meganbaker9116]

I’m not defending religion, but if you think that’s the main bone of contention in Palestine, or was in Northern Ireland, you don’t understand much.

[@moodycxnt]

That is a simplification to say the least. Certainly not how Hitchens would think

[@kookamunga2458]

@@moodycxnt of course it's a simplification because I am a simple man . The nationalism in Palestine and Israel has it's roots in religion because each believes god promised them the land. There isn't any oil in Palestine or Israel to fight over either so you enlighten me with a few sentences as to why they hate each other so much please ? Oh and I am a Canadian and I will not accept and blame or guilt for what the Brittish colonials did in the middle east last century even if it was the wrong decision. I can't influence politics at all by voting because the two main parties here in Canada have basically the same foreign policy in regards to Israel and Palestine..

[@aziebtefferi6376]

It is a matter of principle indeed! What a brilliant man he was!

[@TheShanoGamerPlays]

As much as I can agree on his sentiments of shadiness and how the whole issue and justifications of statehood have been treated and interpreted, I also ask what exactly is to be done? It seems that people can only ever fuel themselves with violence and resentment these days, what happened on Oct. 7th is a clear indication of that and the way in which Israel has also responded has not helped potential further developments towards peace that could've been possible. But to act like they should just disappear or that they had no right to respond at all is also quite naive. Problem is people can't make criticisms on both sides. Everyrthing is always taken for granted. Makes everything seem utterly hopeless. I'm not fanboy of Israel (or any government) but I'm also finding it hard to back any side that has any association with so-called Palestine, as their seems to be this rather frequent extension of some people's sympathies towards innocents (which is understandable) to that of literal terrorist-sanctioned groups. If we're gonna condemn violence shouldn't we do it as a whole? But unfortunately, there also other things we shouldn't put up with, and, unfortunately, dealing with them is going to always come at a cost. Anybody who can truly solve the problem in the most optimal way possible is the genius who does not yet nor may ever exist. My answer has always been that eventually both these people's need to be recognised as contemporary inhabitants of the levant. They either need to make a single state that somehow does this equally or optimally or a two-state solution wherein neither of them even think of touching each other and leave each other alone. But for this to happen their needs to be guarantuees of peace and stability, and both "sides" seem to fail at this in their own way; i.e., Palestine has problems of extremist Islamists, and Israel has its own peculiar position (going beyond mere statehood) which seems to have as many transgressions as it does justifications. Until this is settled, there can be no solution. But the idea is that we don't wish for ill-will upon either this or that person or group, which seems to hard for people to do, even those who deem themselves "loving."

[@rezam5981]

What is the name of the interviewer?

[@bradleyholt9805]

Charlie Rose

[@jigri_pokhri]

Charlie dickward Rose

[@GDuncan8002]

Rharlie Chose

[@chrisbryden8102]

What happened to actual intellectuals. Nobody like this hits MSM anymore.

[@ribtickle4143]

I'd say the explosion in podcasting is the main reason for that. The form has become a great place to hear intellectuals discuss challenging issues

[@kepspark3362]

Check out Alex O'Connor

[@cyberpsychopomp]

I must admit, it’s interesting to me that he had this POV on Palestine (a well-reasoned one, to be sure) but still managed to get suckered into the mass hysteria over the War on Terror after 9/11… In any case, we miss you terribly, Hitch, though I know you’re looking up at us now & laughing at our sorry state without you.

[@JonB1995]

how can he sound so sensible here and yet get it so so wrong on Iraq.

[@ballskin]

because things that you disagree with don't seem sensible..

[@petarjovovic9358]

Dope War on Iraq is objectivly a failure and was objectivly illegal and wrong.

[@ballskin]

The objective was to overthrow the tyrant Saddam Hussein. He was captured and executed. Did you not read the papers?

[@alanbolton7803]

Dope and replaced by a 1000 Saddam Hussain and became hub for radical terrorists

[@jandrews6254]

I believe he’s actually been there have you?

[@jamesnicol3831]

Righteous and fluent forever

[@ac5923]

I admire Hitch, but I often disagree with him.

[@twothreebravo2374]

Israel or jihadis? I know which side i take

[@laxjs]

@@twothreebravo2374 let me know know when u discover the rest of rainbow brother

[@Mwstmrlnd]

@@twothreebravo2374 You take the side you're told is just, rather than thinking for yourself about where the power dynamics actually lie and who they favor.

[@GDuncan8002]

​@@Mwstmrlnd They favored the Arabs for decades. But the Arabs could fk up a ham sandwich, so .... womp womp.

[@qwertyuiopzxcvbnm9192]

​@@twothreebravo2374Palestine or the parasites of the world? Which side should I take rabbi?

[@tettazwo9865]

2:05 "....after all it's America who pays...."

[@heatingandplumbing8241]

There has to be a two state soloution where Palestinians and Israeli`s live side by side in peace

[@weeweethemagicalbee8758]

Heating and Plumbing Except the two-state solution is a defeat for the Palestinians and meets only the interests of the Israelis since it legitimizes the land theft and the oppression that the Palestinians have endured. How are you going to expel Palestinians from their lands, push them into tiny bits of lands such as the Gaza Strip and West Bank, then call for a two-state solution? Who is the winner in this situation?

[@Dtonationify]

Arabs went to war against Israel in the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948, with the risk in their heads that they may lose and get defeated; losing land and conceding to Israel's weak army at the time. Even though they knew they could lose land and get defeated, they went to war, and guess what happened? Israel defeated all Arab states surrounding it. Ben Gurion and the Zionist Movement were perfectly happy with the solution, and were fast to declare a country on the very same borders the UN Two-State solution suggested; the Arabs weren't OK with it. Let me also tell you this, after the Six Days War in Israel, Jordan lost most of the West Bank, Syria lost all of the Golan and Northern Israeli valleys, and Egypt lost ALL of the Gaza strip and Sinai. But you know what? Israel withdrew. It gave back the land it RIGHTFULLY won over in the war. How can you complain over this? There is NO other Jewish state in the world, while there being 49-51 major Muslim countries in the world, according to 2010 estimates. How can you POSSIBLY deny Israel's right to exist? I don't see you whining and complaining when the Nationalist Greek nationalist movements like the First Hellenic Republic and Greek Revolutionaries overthrew and occupied the Ottoman Empire in 1829? I don't see you complaining about Lithuanian nationalist movements like "The Freedom Struggles" rebel against the Russian empire in 1919, overthrowing the Russians who occupied the state? You see, this is not a new problem. It's ingrained in society. The niche of scoping in on Israel and calling and boycotting Jews and Israelies is pure, antisemitism. Get educated.

[@Jblah]

Dtonationify wrong ..antisemitism apllies to semites. Zionists are european converts. Boycotting Israel is totally legitimate as the only forces that hold it are zionist racists. But keep ur fantasy that zionist jews are the chosen ppl, while their methods are truly the opposite. Real semite jews dont acknowledge israel either. So get educated urself.

[@guydegroof2217]

Isn’t religion precious?

[@myowngenesis]

​@@Jblahyou're both wrong. Zionism isn't good or evil, it just is. For him no matter what Israel does its legitimate. For you it's the opposite, whatever it does its illegitimate and wrong. I am allergic to fatalistic lack of nuance as shown here by absolutists like you two. Israel has a right to exist, but not everything Israel does is right or morally acceptable. The same can and should be said about the Palestinians, the blatant refusal to even consider the possibility of accepting Israel's right to a statehood has done nothing but empower and embolden the fascoid militarism as we today see in Israel. Initially Israel had basically left wing governments. While today you see far right maniacs ruling the country. I'm not saying it's only the fault of one side, it takes two to create a conflict.

[@user-dd6ng1wn1b]

As true today as it was then. I'm always surprised by hitchens sagacity.

[@SuperSonicBaroque]

How relevant this is now

[@baldwintheanchorite]

"... after all it's America that pays for all of this and arms the Israeli's..."

[@nadinejoyce1203]

No one comes close except for Hedges.

[@Shadowdash66X]

So little has changed, or gotten worse, in this scenario.

[@EugVR6]

What would he gave to say about the world today! if he was still with us....sorely missed thinker of our time.

[@blasalvice]

Love Hitchens, and he's right there but still missing crucial parts of the story. I wish we could hear him today with much more context

[@Kozinskowitzky]

Exactly. He’s trying to argue that all of Israel’s Jewish population are descended from Central Europeans. No mention of the fact that the majority of the Islamic countries in the Middle East kicked out their Jewish populations and that close to half of Jewish Israelis are Mizrahi

[@blasalvice]

@@Kozinskowitzky That's right. It begs the question: how much did he really know about all this? The situation is far different from 17 years ago (with hamas) but still, I would have expected him to know more

[@Kozinskowitzky]

@@blasalvice I completely agree

[@blasalvice]

@@Kozinskowitzky Am Israel chai friend! :)

[@LogicaetRatio-r8z]

He has integrity

[@zeitgeist5134]

The Jews were unrealistic. Idealistic, romantic, traumatized...but unrealistic. The creation of the State of Israel was colonialism, pure and simple. There was a time when such a takeover could be done. When the Ottoman Turks annexed the Levant, the people there said, "Well, okay. I hope that this new over-lord will be better than the last one." (And the Ottomans were in fact a very good over-lord.) But by the mid-20th century, people all over the planet were in open rebellion against colonial over-lords. It was way too late for a new attempt at colonialism. Consequently, there have been four generations of endless war. The Jews must realize that it ain't never gonna work. Not that they should leave, but they should be a part of a one-state solution, a state in which the constitution makes no mention of ethnicity or religion, a state where the motto is , "Can't we all get along?" Yeah, you can say that this state is by now a pipe dream (I propose the name "Levantine"), but the two-state solution is likewise a pipe-dream. The stupid map left by the idiot British government makes a two-state solution impossible. The pre-1967 borders left Israel un-defendable. Just look at the map. The Israeli government will never agree to restore such un-defendable borders. That's realism, though one wishes it were otherwise. Face it. It ain't never gonna work. The decades of conflict have made a large portion of the Israelis not just unrealistic, but the prolonged siege-mentality has left them damn-near psychotic. Regarding the current war against Hezbollah, the Israeli protesters are protesting in favor of a cease-fire to negotiate hostage-exchange. They are not condemning the horrific carnage and devastation of Gaza and Lebanon done by their government. This is the consequence of the decades of toxic siege-mentality. They cannot recognize that the existence of the State of Israel is doing them moral and psychological harm. As long as the State of Israel exists, this toxic harm will continue.

[@DanielinAction]

Lets talk after the war 🤌

[@TackshooterOG]

Moron

[@zeitgeist5134]

@@DanielinAction I would welcome a conversation with you. However, I have no idea what your emoji means. I long for the day when the emoji-fad fades away. Fraught with muddy ambiguity. So easily misinterpreted. Dare I say that they are...childish? A child's inability to compose a nuanced, articulate statement? It puzzles me that people use them. I do not mean to offend. I only want to discourage the use of emojis.

[@ERSCAUS]

I wonder what Christopher would say about the state of the world now, in October 2024. I would also love to hear what he has to say about Jesus trump!

[@mpld1979]

This man was a legend.

[@Pulsonar]

It’s a real joy to hear a brilliant thinker lay out the basic facts and principles that somehow escaped careful consideration when the state of Israel came into being.

[@nas84payne]

Man, how right he was.

[@martintoggweiler2343]

Cogent points. Makes me wonder whether there was a Roman intellectual 1900+ years ago cogently arguing that the empire’s effort to reconquer the not particularly valuable region of Judea from its stubbornly troublesome indigenous people was not really worth the effort.

[@jamesdalton2014]

"not particularly valuable region of Judea" - maybe to the Romans but, empires have been fighting over that patch of land as long as there have been empires. As they say in real estate... location, location, location. It is the nexus of 3 continents so, perhaps kind of important after all. Plus, the Romans weren't really the type to let troublesome people be.

[@martintoggweiler2343]

@@jamesdalton2014 It’s on the invasion route between Egypt and Asia, thus had land-bound armies going through; with naval power the Mediterranean (Mare Nostrum/Our Sea) was the Roman invasion route.

[@renaospeechbyramanandsons9089]

0:03 - 0:12 It's not a stupid idea. It's a HORRIFYING IDEA!

[@sidbullet1]

Maybe to an Arab

[@user-John666]

As always an intelligent response that gets you thinking rather than just switching off. He certainly raises some good points about the creation of Israel but I'd ask if they were actually farmers on that land? And if so, what were they farming? Because as I understand it, the land was completely barren. Happy to be informed otherwise though. And besides any of this, the Jews were actually there well before Islam was even thought of. (I'm not Jewish btw)

[@neilgerace355]

They were a small minority in Palestine until the state of Israel was created. They moved in from Europe and the USA and evicted the Arab majority. They should go back.

[@user-John666]

@@neilgerace355 So what about before that? I'm not sure you are being totally honest there.

[@neilgerace355]

@@user-John666 I'm not going back millennia here. Jews were a small minority in Palestine in the 20th century until the establishment of the State of Israel.

[@user-John666]

@@neilgerace355 So who lived there first? We're always told indigenous people count more, so who was there first? Certainly not Muslims.

[@neilgerace355]

@@user-John666 Certainly not Europeans or Americans who happened to be Jewish. I said I'm not going back millennia.

[@NoPickles.4Me]

Hitchens would not agree with the thinking behind "From the river to the sea" even with his understanding of the "Original sin" argument. Palestinians will need to pivot to peaceful co existence and dropping the generation resistance movement.

[@comradeshmoo]

Sure, AFTER Israel has been forced to stop this wholesale slaughter.

[@Plain--Jane]

what a vile thing to post "The people being actively murdered in droves need to accept that they'll never be free" fuck you lol

[@jimmycormack]

I have to say though, that if the Palestinians want an independent state then the Israelis will, in the end, have to concede once security guarantees are given. I want Scottish independence so that is an entirely consistent position to take.

[@GeoffSh4rt]

And what about Cornish independence?

[@RikerLovesWorf]

If the Palestinians actually GET an independent state, then the Israelis won't need security guarantees - the region will finally be able to progress.

[@moggadah]

I'm European. I don't get Scottish independence. I think of UK as one country. I don't get Northern Ireland troubles either. Of course the Londoners are pricks and maybe you want to be on your own, but the people in any capital are pricks. Would Scotland be better off or just poor? Bag pipes and whiskey is good of course, but is liquor really good for creating cohesion?

[@innertubez]

@@RikerLovesWorf LOL that's a good one. If the Palestinians get an independent state, there will STILL be Palestinians demanding that Israeli land is theirs too. You have to be naïve if you think Palestinians will ever be statisfied.

[@scottysbottom5769]

@innertubez How about you Zionist fanatics stop depriving them of more than 4 hours of electricity a day and clean water? How about stop blockading medical supplies and destroying 90% of their industrial capacity bc of their religious fanaticism. Also Palestinian liberation is secular you racist fuck. The Palestinians live in reality not the Israeli’s. You’re so racist you can’t see how insane the Israeli’s are or that Palestinians have secular reasons for not wanting to be tormented

[@andydepissant]

I actually don't think this has aged well. They ain't farmers... And "had a right to a state" too. They very much got that and discarded it.

[@dbetesh]

"waste of Judaism " ? Strange terminology...

[@daxiom6119]

I agree there is no comparison Judaism is a faith and Zionism is merely role reversal Nazism and shares the same ideology, predominantly genocide.

[@darz_k.]

Exactly. I bet hitchens, if he was still alive, would have flip flopped on this opinion.

[@valeriemacphail9180]

@@dbetesh Agriculture is an ART without which life is unsustainable. I was rather taken aback by his disdain towards the noblest of professions!

[@dz_ca]

@@darz_k. Why would you think that? Nothing has changed. Both things can be true at the same time. The creation of Israel as constituted was a stupid idea that guaranteed long term unrest. That's not at odds with the fact that it exists, and culturally and morally is preferential to the alternative in the region despite its flawed beginnings and deserves the West's protection and support.

[@darz_k.]

@@dz_ca My point was, hitchens comes across as another radical leftist - i.e. will change opinion depending which way the wind blows.

[@andrewdevine6333]

He's completely wrong here. Ironic, in that he was so vociferous in opposing Islamic fundamentalism which a majority of Palestinians subscribe to.

[@Trackrace29582]

Israel magic fairy tale book is fake and Israel should exist free Palestine

[@dancingdan1994]

I love this man's views on this issue

[@cambium0]

I thought I was speaking in a vacuum until seeing this vid

[@joshuanakagawa9804]

Then it is a foolish errand for any indigenous people to wish sovereignty in their colonised homeland.

[@slinkyoz]

@@joshuanakagawa9804 Indigenous people? How far do you want to go back, the Neolithic era?

[@wexwuthor1776]

Wisdom from the beyond.

[@Galkatokk]

I guess he wasn't right about everything.

[@scottysbottom5769]

You zionists will be remembered the same as adolf hitlers publicists. You’re not allowed to torment and murder these ppl you racist freak. You’ve made it a policy to murder any Palestinian that tries to return home. You took their clean water, electricity and industrial capacity away. You’re a monster and a fanatic.

[@rahuldahoob]

But he was right on this!!no diggity

[@Whoretensia]

@@rahuldahoob Not really. He was often wrong, as he was here.

[@sidensvans67]

Wonderful Christopher Hitchens . A formidable intellect , sadly missed .

[@itsmederek1]

I like this take a lot. Its a bit simplistic but there is an undeniable core of truth

[@roubaissa6996]

Free Palestine 🇵🇸

[@gabrielleangelica1977]

I don't agree with Chrs much. However, he has my full respect for speaking 🗣️ up for what is right here.

[@Corleone1891]

This aged like fine wine.

[@LightSaber12345]

This guy died too early

[@zillafire101]

It's kinda depressing reading Ilhan Pepe's 10 myths of Israel, because you see Jews back then were saying the same things. Edwin Montagu, the only Jewish member of Parliament, vehemently opposed the Balfour Declaration and thought it was racist to both the Jews of the world and Arabs. Nothing has changed.

[@Trackrace29582]

Maybe that’s why Jews are always being kicked out

[@markberryhill2715]

Where did Hitchens think Jewish people originated if not in the Middle East on so-called "Arab" land And him being Jewish of all things and not knowing(willingly) that Isaac and the wildman,half-brother of his Ishmael were from the same stock. He(Hitchens) is living proof that you can be a genius, and a total ignoramus at the same time.

[@VintemTraducoes]

If you truly believe biblical genealology, Hitchens might not be the "ingnoramus" here.

[@MaleOrderBride]

There is a huge difference between sepphardic Jews and ashkenazi Jews. Ashkenazi Jews are ethnically polish or Lithuanian or Russian. They are centuries of pasty-white Jews who were not built to live in a desert! Their pale skin is designed for cold eastern-european climates! This is who Hitchens is talking about! Those Jews have zero right to a desert on the other side of the planet...when their own biological make-up proves they were not the true desert people!!

[@mikeoxlong3676]

Hitchens is too blinded here by his hatred of religion to be logical.

[@jimbob7924]

ashkenazi white European Jews also known as khazarians only converted to Judaism 400yrs ago and came from Eastern Europe. They never came from the holy land and are fake Jews. They have ZERO semitic blood. ZERO! Meanwhile, the Palestinians are real semites who have cananite dna. The cananites were in that land a thousand yrs before Abraham even left Iraq haha. Stop lying. Its not cool

[@johnh2850]

@@MaleOrderBride For not being people built for the desert they’re doing pretty well in the desert. Much better than what you would consider the real desert people.

[@daveg5857]

Who talks like this anymore? I miss Hitch.

[@zb3495]

Here’s the thing : a state is a neighbor. The neighbors - israel yes but also Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt , Syria , the gulf - look at Palestinians and say “no thanks.” That’s partly why Palestinian refugees weren’t absorbed by neighboring countries and remain in camps generations on. Hitch is right that you won’t turn polish optometrists into Negev farmers. But since then israel has been a safe haven for millions of people from Iran , Morocco, Ethiopia etc. If the world , including the Arab world, didn’t hate and routinely attack Jews , israel would never have been created.

[@K520-1]

Yes yes all Palestinians are terr0rist. Is that what are you saying? After rap!ing, killing and stealing their land they want their revenge and what was taken from them. Palestinians are the workhorse of the Middle East, they were the pioneers of the educational system of all gulf countries. Most Palestinians in the USA are actually rich and most of the are educated, a lot of doctors, engineers and lawyers. Most Palestinians regret leaving their land before and after 1948. Now they prefer death than being a refuge. They don’t want to go to Egypt or Jordan. Also most Palestinians in exile, including those that are in Jordan wish to go back to their ancestral lands. Israel just doesn’t want peace that swhy they created H@mas.

[@K520-1]

Also, read about the true Jewish history of the Middle East. When Jerusalem was conquered by the Muslim aren’t the first thing they did was to return the original Jews (nowadays those people are called Palestinians) Jews in North African countries were living peacefully until France conquered the whole area. Unfortunately, North African Jews aligned them selfs with the colonizers France. After each NA country independence Jews that were traitors were kicked out. Check specifically Algeria independence. Read about Lavon Affairs for Egypt Jews and what happened to them. Now Iraqi Jews is different. Iraqi Jews were fully integrated into the country, they had high political positions until Israel messed everything. Check what Avi Shlaim says.

[@zb3495]

@@K520-1 I’m sorry israel forced noble Iraqis to engage in mass killings of Jews 7 years before the state was founded.

[@bigmacstack3468]

None of what you’ve said is a justification for Israel’s behaviour-even if it wasn’t riddled with half truths-which it is.

[@zb3495]

@@bigmacstack3468 I’m sorry I couldn’t hear you over Egypt’s double wide , 6 feet into the ground steel wall barricading themselves from gazans.

[@UserName-cb6jz]

I am surprised to hear him say something positive and defensive of Muslims. I thought he was hell-bent on constantly blaming Islam amd Muslims for everything.

[@igorstrugar2889]

Finally found one thing i disagree with Hitchens

[@pf100andahalf]

Why? Isn't all the constant fighting and death because of religion, and without it there wouldn't be an issue?

[@Whoretensia]

@@pf100andahalf Blame Islam. It is a death cult, and in modern history it is more responsible for death and suffering more than any other ideology.

[@qwertyuiopzxcvbnm9192]

Look who is talking rabbi igor from eastern european khazarian khokholia😜

[@akoravids]

No one cares

[@sylvan47070]

So you can violently evict people from their land, its just a question of how much time passes before it becomes legitimate. What is that length of that time?

[@timmusician5060]

How wrong was THIS guy. Jeez. Everyone has an opinion

[@meirm471]

a great man, people who watch this and agree with him fully on this might not understand the nuance of this man on these subjects. Although I might disagree with him regarding his understanding of the conflict (at that point a left leaning oppressor oppressed narrative) he has some other things he says about the conflict. he recognized that Israel was used by most dictators in the middle east (and beyond it) to draw attention away from the lack of human rights in their countries (and the people were fed up with it according to him). He was against destroying Israel. He was very much an anti theist (anyone who reads this clip as him fully supporting Hamas should really look into his opinions on Islam).

[@mohamedalahmadani5174]

A stopped clock is right twice a day, it seems. Hitchens is usually off the mark on many subjects, but he is not wrong here.

[@munish259272]

Is it because what he is saying that is your views , or would you like to see the rest of the video where he doesn't

[@mohamedalahmadani5174]

@@munish259272 Not gonna lie, couldn’t really understand what you wrote

[@munish259272]

@@mohamedalahmadani5174 I guess then i have nothing to say

[@ulala9729]

@@mohamedalahmadani5174 because you are jihadi who hates non muslim

[@frunomaol5069]

On this matter, I agree. And America is the bad actor in Palestine. USA foreign policy after WW2 is mostly immoral.

[@Whoretensia]

Narnia, Asgard, Gotham, Pandora, Naboo, Palestine.

[@search895]

​@@WhoretensiaYou forgot to mention israel

[@PhilipBowden-oz7mm]

A bottle of scotch a day

[@Rubten]

Miss the Hitch.

[@Clarence_Oddbody]

We pay to keep them there so they won’t come here or demand their lands back in Europe. It’s just another camp.

[@stephenconnolly1830]

This might be the one thing that rescues Hitchens from the hellfire.

[@MorbiusBlueBalls]

you muslim by any chance?

[@TruthSeeker-c6z]

Stupid and unjust God would do that. He should get one of the highest altars in heaven, not just a narrow escape

[@sfkeepay]

@@MorbiusBlueBalls, Who cares what his religion is? Just remind him that Hitchens took on Kissinger as a war criminal, the Catholic Church over abuse of children, bigots for their homophobia, and yes, even Bush for the U.S.’s conduct after the initial stages of the invasion of Iraq. He only supported the invasion of Iraq out of solidarity with the Iraqi people and, especially his deep connection with the Kurds. Engage with people’s ideas, don’t stoop to attacking them personally.

[@CosmicValkyrie]

Hitchens is too hot for hell. Dont think hellfire can hurt him.

[@jamesm.3967]

Cutting to the chase. 🤔

[@loadsbutty]

2 state solution cant exist unfortunately

[@ianbrodie8658]

Well then perhaps the israelis should leave palestine.

[@StockyDude]

@@ianbrodie8658Well, 20% of Israelis are Arab descendants of Palestinian Arabs, and they want Israel to stay. Then there’s the issue of the Jews who had to flee North Africa, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen after Israel’s independence. Those countries won’t give them back their homes or property either.

[@chrisgardner4222]

@@ianbrodie8658 Maybe Brooklyn can become the new Jewish State. They already have a lot of friends there.

[@psootloops]

Hitch’s thinking evolved on this. There’s a clip or two of him discussing the archeology supporting Zionism/Israel.

[@footbru]

I recall him negating that there were any "title deeds" to the land - could you link us to where he supported Israels historicity?

[@search895]

Archeology can prove whatever, except the motivation for current modern politic issues.

[@davidnorman6348]

I'm an enthusiastic listener of Christopher Hitchens and cannot disagree with what he says here. What he does not say is that the Pasestinian Arabs were offered a state on a number of occasions and, after feigning initially agreement, continually rejected the offer. They want all jews out of the Middle-east.

[@CosmicValkyrie]

Nonsense. You keep reading zionist propaganda.

[@MikeAG333]

Oh really? Got anything to back this uip?

[@CosmicValkyrie]

Propaganda bot.

[@qwertyuiopzxcvbnm9192]

Shalom rabbi david noseberg

[@Nathaniel-r8l]

Please name one square kilometer of land on Earth that was not at some point taken by force. This is not an excuse, but it is a diagnosis.

[@oatmiser3110]

Iceland was not taken by force

[@okay5191]

Yes, this is what we should remember in a time where arguments like ‘Palestine never existed’ when defending even more settlements - and ofc today catastrophic destruction….

[@saadmohammad3091]

Intelligence rational logical Hitchens the great

[@jbapples4611]

I’m pretty sure 7/10 would have pushed him further one side. He understood the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism which fuel this fire.

[@pierzing.glint1sh76]

I doubt that ver much. "Islamic fundamentalism" as he would have called it is nothing new. I dont know why Israelis feel they're the first people in the world to get bitten. As though their complex relationship with the lands they occupy started on 7/10. I dont think 7/10 would have changed the fact that Hitchens thinks that founding the state of Israel on someone else's land is basically Jewish fundamentalism, which is what he is saying here. He disagrees with all forms of religion and especially those that get involved with politics so I appreciate that he's being consistent here.

[@jbapples4611]

@@pierzing.glint1sh76 Some fair points there but I’m inclined to disagree. As he mentioned, the religious reasons behind its founding have little consequence to where we are now. I’m in no way suggesting issues started 7/10 but it was certainly an eye opening turning point. almost every action Israel has taken since its creation has been defensive against a side hell bent on the annihilation of the other. It’s literally in their charter. Life before the infitadas was not brutal occupation. One side chose death and violence. And still do Israel encouraged the Arabs to stay and the 2 million there now are mostly proud Israelis who enjoy full rights and equalities. Despite its founding Israel is the only democratic country in the region, which Hitchens always favoured. He backed the Iraq war for the same reasons I feel he would back Israel now, he’s opposed to genocidal fundamentalism from a very dangerous religion which has only got worse since his passing. He did this in spite of GWB’s religious reasoning also. He opposed genocidal organisations which Hamas And Hezbollah are. Although Israel may have been founded on silly religious fundamentalist reasoning, it’s not hell bent of destroying the other, nor it’s civilian population, it does all it can to avoid that. Palestine has turned down peace at every opportunity and chosen violence at every opportunity

[@pierzing.glint1sh76]

@jbapples4611 i repeat again. I dont know why Israelis think they're the first to ever get bitten. They can't seem to learn from the mistakes of the US in numerous examples that u cannot bomb diplomacy into a people especially those you are actively occupying With regards to hamas charter, israeli government has one just like it, called the likud charter. and self defense or not the side that's actually doing the most damage right now and creating alot more future terrorists is the state of israel. These are your neighbors. Even the US isn't stupid to deal with druglords by bombing Mexico to the ground and starting open war with them. It also cleverly doesn't blockade there food and water and electricity. Israeli government doesn't seem to the have the same brain power. Am I calling them evil ? No, just very very stupid..

[@pierzing.glint1sh76]

Does israel not realise that the people who's land their homes now sit on actually have a stronger claim than they do? Particularly the millions of Israelis who hail from lands nowhere near historic palestine.. They should keep this in mind when their silly little army called the idf goes round shooting children and snipering medics. In other words, they've got the bigger guns and bigger funds, take the blasted land, but if theyre also going go round killing innocent people then they can soundly f*ck right off. It's like pissing on a open wound. Only a matter of time before the next October 7th But this is a choice the Israelis have made. It's a choice the Americans made in Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan too, but they seemed to have learned from their mistakes, and look now, its been nearly a decade since the last terrorist attack on US soil (other than the random shootings) If Hitch was alive he'd say the exact same things. Because that guy looked at what he said about the Iraq War and knew he screwed up.. He learns from his mistakes

[@pierzing.glint1sh76]

@jbapples4611 u can read his views on israel if you like it's called "blaming the victim" a book written with an essay from hitchens

[@darkthought784]

End petrodollar *

[@tomoleary7935]

.....and..... so, it came to pass ........

[@lindag4544]

yeah those farmers.. 13 Nobel prizes in sciences in 75 years..mostly great advances in medicine… damn those Jewish farmers..

[@myowngenesis]

@@lindag4544 the zionazi Crocodile tears gushing forth the split second your aura of moral invincibility is touched.

[@mohamedalahmadani5174]

Hmm the Germans had better technology than most of the world back in the 30s, guess they had the right to invade France and Poland, no? See how braindead your line of reasoning is.

[@iotaje1]

That's his point and you missed it. Jews in Europe had been prohibited from owning land and they were not trusted to work with it which is why they worked so hard to get into science, finance and medicine. Zionism originally was a project of creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and the idea of it's founders was that the Jews could finally own and cultivate their land. Hitchens point is that it was stupid to take a population of lawyers and doctors and Nobel prizes and try to turn them into farmers in Palestine.

[@MJ-we9vu]

Yes, that's his point. They weren't really suited to become farmers, were they?

[@oatmiser3110]

Media literacy can be very difficult for reactionaries like you. Don't feel bad about it, but I hope you get better.

[@MitzvosGolem1]

League of Nations mandate on Palestine SanRemo conference 1920 The world promised to return the Jews to their ancestral homeland. Turkey occupies Greek and Kurdish lands committed genocides there. China occupies Tibet. Europe occupies Basques lands. And hypocrites only say Jews should give lands back to a people that did not exist before 1964..... Ottoman Turks have no records of "Palestinians" only name of a region that includes Christians,Jews,Muslims,Druze etc. Thank God we have advanced Military in Israel.

[@kavogaming5352]

Sam Harris needs to listen to this.

[@levand3673]

Hitchens would be pro-Israel today. Let's not forget Hitchens scathing critique of Islam!

[@excitedsynapses]

Rubbish. This interview was done during the period in his life when he was writing critiques of Islam, hence why he says "I'm no more, no less in favour of it now." He was referring to his lifelong commitment to Palestine from his leftist years to his later right-wing turn. As he said, "it should be a matter of principle."

[@slinkyoz]

@@levand3673 In what world is Judaism the opposite of Islam? They are both religions, thus just fantasy.

[@qwertyuiopzxcvbnm9192]

Shalom shlomo +109 shekels deposited to your account for successfully delivering the propaganda Jews are safe now

[@aurealproportions1917]

I wonder if this happened before he became a bloodthristy neocon.

[@donelmore2540]

There are many Arabs and Muslims living and working in Israel! How many Jews are living in Arab and Muslim countries? How many “Palestinians” are allowed to migrate into other Arab and Muslim countries?

[@CosmicValkyrie]

Meaningless dumb question. They all left arab states to go to israel? Did they cut off part of your brain as well as the head? Also there are yemeni jews. Who were kidnapped by israelis to breed and mix the genes.

[@SvalbardSleeperDistrict]

Denial, deflection, whataboutery. How do the likes of you always end up there.

[@slinkyoz]

@@donelmore2540 What’s your point?

[@donelmore2540]

@@slinkyoz Just responding to Hitchens a little that the least racist country in the Middle East is Israel and that no Middle East country will take in Palestinians.

[@Hammer2k11]

He was quite a smart guy before he became a cheerleader for the Iraq war.

[@ISOTruth18]

Entitled overintellectualism

[@user.--.]

Absolute babble. Just two words thrown together with no meaning or reasoning 😂

[@ISOTruth18]

@@user.--. Says Anonymous Tw@tw@ffle

[@BDBMX]

BUT THE WORDS ARE SO LONG

[@valeriemacphail9180]

?????

[@ISOTruth18]

@@valeriemacphail9180 Hitchens views aren't facts. Rather, they are abstract rationalizations. He is not in jeopardy or harm's way, so how can he possibly apply any existential qualities based on fear of extermination. Hitchens' safe space reduces any danger to nil. That's kind of what I mean. In short, it's easy for him to say when he isn't living it.

[@brutus4013]

Pure truth.

[@GeoffSh4rt]

I love the way he says "your land" meaning Arab land. I wonder if he's ever asked himself why Jews are called Jews. Could it conceivably have something to do with them coming originally from Judea? Is he unaware of the Muslim invasion of Palestine in the seventh century? What is an invasion if not land theft?

[@GeoffSh4rt]

@Ian Michael It is Arab land only because the Muslims stole it when they invaded the land in the seventh century. You say Jews didn't come from Judea, so are you implying that Judea was not an independent Jewish state destroyed by the Romans? If that's what you are saying, you clearly know little if anything about the history of the territory. If a people is exiled from its land (as was the case of the Jews under Roman rule) natural justice demands that that people enjoys a right of return. Zionism is about Jews exercising that right. Zionism has nothing to do with "the bible" (most of the original Zionists were atheists) and everything to do with righting the wrongs of the past. Zionism also has nothing to do with "pushing out Palestinians". They were "pushed out" because they attempted to ethnically cleanse the land of Jews - and lost.

[@GeoffSh4rt]

@Ian Michael Learn some (basic) history. The Jews lived in Palestine - indeed, they had their own independent state - hundreds of years before Islam was invented. "What gives a Jew from Europe or America a right to immigrate and establish a state on land Palestinians lived on" is natural justice. If you are kicked out of your country, you and your descendants, have a right of return.

[@GeoffSh4rt]

@Ian Michael Palestinians do, indeed, have a right of return. It's called a two state solution.

[@GeoffSh4rt]

@Ian Michael What is it that I need to learn?

[@GeoffSh4rt]

@Ian Michael I don't think any reputable historian regards the bible as a reliable guide as to what happened long ago.

[@bulliwoody3674]

Brilliant man so missed