Churchill AVRE Petard vs Tiger lower hull front armor | Explosion Simulation 808 / Pentolite

[@SquallHornet]

Letting that thing get so close was a fatal mistake

[@TheLifeOfKane]

I mean... as it turns out for tens of millions, having a world war was a fatal mistake 😂

[@quint3ssent1a]

Yeah, as far as I remember it had a range of less than 100 meters... any closer and it would be a hand-to-hand fight basically

[@ValentineC137]

​@quint3ssent1a 130, on a good day In War Thunder it often feels like a knife would have a longer range

[@quint3ssent1a]

@@ValentineC137 Warhammer meme about "drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword!"

[@Tsarbloonba]

The churchill or the tiger

[@satanhell_lord]

I knew explosive simulations were intensive to calculate but I'm still surprised by the 300h calculation time

[@xKeraix]

Most likely its not "objects with parameters' but matchematical formulas. In games they way simpler, while in engineering simulations very few numbers and way more formulas.

[@krumpirko8888gaming]

he is doing this with laptop and inteol mobile cpu

[@kirotheavenger60]

I believe explosions are particularly intensive as well

[@HanSolo__]

Insane

[@LanaaAmor]

​@@krumpirko8888gaming he said that?

[@GerardMenvussa]

Turns out the pentolite *was* essential 🫣

[@kimjanek646]

Nah, the main difference is the impact angle. Direct contact over such wide area makes it practically act like HESH.

[@FippeFi]

@@kimjanek646 I'd say it's a bit of both; the impact angle helps, but the pentolite is forcing a directionality to the blast, and preventing majority of the primary blast volume from just fizzling out into the open air.

[@kimjanek646]

@@FippeFilol so it’s like a shaped HE charge. Using one explosive to concentrate the other explosives power 😂 I wonder if that works. For a demolition charge it would make perfect sense. Now I’m curious whether that actually works.

[@brosefmalkovitch3121]

@@kimjanek646 I think the Pentolite did quite a bit, the slight mistiming of the explosives allowed the shockwaves to reflect off each other and produce a far greater force than a simultaneous detonation.

[@kimjanek646]

@@brosefmalkovitch3121 Sounds good in theory but I’m still skeptical 🤔

[@tokencivilian8507]

300 hours?!?!?! Wow. Yeah, what a difference that extra 2.5kg of pentolite made.

[@berserkguts4185]

double pen maybe but this real pen not same HESH this interesting

[@TheBoringEdward]

Must be loud af inside the Tiger, even if it weren't to penetrate.

[@xKeraix]

If 2.5 doing that, 25/50 kg will done it. And processing pc most likely too. Supercomputers was made to do engineering models.

[@TheBoringEdward]

what

[@TheJohn_Highway]

They will "hear" the second simulation. But the first one not much. Check out the overpressure video by this same channel. 152mm HE vs 80mm plate caused only enough overpressure/noise that the crew would have to be within 2 inches of the plating to get any eardrum damage.

[@TheBoringEdward]

Yeah might not cause a ruptured eardrum, but I'd reckon it'd still be super loud.

[@Velesus101]

@@TheJohn_Highway I constantly get conflicting opinions on this issue. Some people claim that the tank crew wouldn't hear or feel mine explosions or autocannon rounds hitting their tank while others point out that Chieftan told a story of Abrams crewmen hearing AK bullets ricocheting off their tank's armor. If the latter is true then they would *definitely* hear and feel that explosion.

[@tsilfidis1996]

Damn have i said how much i enjoy these?! Glad you spend the time and effoy!

[@tazionuvolari8142]

Tiger when 8kg of HE hit's it: i sleep Tiger when there's 2.5kg of pentolite behind the 8kg of HE: oh damn

[@Steve-mr5un]

Might be the case of "Overdriven Detonation". If an explosive is compressed by another detonation, its detonating velocity will greatly increase. Or could be that 2.5kg's plus was the limit of the plate.

[@reeseraymond8886]

Brings a whole new meaning to "The 808s are bumpin"

[@PsihoKekec]

This brings back the memories of Steel Panthers and Close Combat II, I loved using Churchill AVREs to knock out Tigers and Panthers.

[@Alexandr___S1]

*M, the author is playing War Thunder!!!* *Nice!!!*

[@space3112]

With the visible wobble of the armor in the non-penetrative test, would it cause enough of an overpressure to damage anything? or did the crew escape unscathed just with their pants interior browner than before?

[@exceptionalanimations1508]

I'm pretty sure it'd leave ears ringing, especially since the weld holding the plates together cracked and probably let some of the blast in, but nothing deadly

[@ZETH_27]

The revirbirations could most definitely disable electrical equipment and shake attacked things off of the hull, but the armour would remain intact and the crew would not be affected by the pressure wave probably. The noise is the biggest concern and might disable the crew temporarily, but as long as the transmission wasn't damaged by the blast (which it very well could have been due to vibrations), the vehicle would be recoverable.

[@DaveSherry-z1w]

@@ZETH_27 Nah, I am picking that the driver and co-driver were killed. Of the turret crew the gunner likely killed while load/op and commander would have been very lucky to get away wounded. The shock wave alone from a hit like that would have smashed radios and optics and the tank would have been put out of action in any case. There is the possibility that a ammo cook off could also have occurred of course, ammo being stored low down in the turret.

[@jasta07]

Can you do a 37mm PzGr hitting the armored air vents on the side of a Char B1 vs one hitting the side armor? Clear up the myth of the air intake being a weak spot or not.

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

I could, but I need to have the data. It's usually hard to find diagrams of such specific places

[@America_Thunder]

Do you think the transmission would soak up most of the spall?

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

I think a lot of the transmission will turn into shrapnel

[@revolver265]

@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 given that there's a lot of hollow casing, gears, springs, and the like, I can completely see that. Transmissions blocks it but the driver's legs get torn to shreds by all the stuff in the transmission no longer being inside it

[@darionapoli4736]

The first sim was expected. HE is trash against armour. The second one was surprising tho. Guess the flat nose of the shell had some proto HESH thought behind it.

[@jintsuubest9331]

The shape is simply because you can fit the most amount of boom in that package. But yea, the damage mechanism is more or less hesh like.

[@ZETH_27]

you're talking nonsense. High-Explosive unitions are very effective against armour, just not in the same way as Armour-Piercing projectiles. HE is genrally lighter, and can have a devastating effect on armour of poor build quality, especially around seams where armour is connected, both in welded vehicles, and in riveted ones, where as solid AP projectiles bring more concentrated energy which can be useful against large homogenous plates, but keeps the damage more localized. The trade off-with this is generally that, a vehicle targeted by an AP projectile is likely to be disabled if penetrated, but recoverable depending on where the impact is, where as with HE, the vehicle will be unusable in the future if the HE punches through, but the damage will be less substantial if the armour endures. Tl:dr, AP is more consistent, HE is more of a gamble, with extreme failures and extreme successes, whereas AP is more predictable and reliable, hence why it's prefered (and because it's cheaper to make).

[@darionapoli4736]

@@ZETH_27 that is exactly why HE is bad against armour. If you can't penetrate enemy armour, the damage will be nothing or at most similar to AP (if you get a thin armour part in the blast radius). But any meaningful armour will withstand HE from absurdly high calibers. Have you seen the KV-2 HE vs Tiger turret side (152mm HE vs 80mm RHA)? That was really just a loud bang with absolutely no effect. Same in this simulation. Without the HESH like effect on the second simulation, the blast just dented the 100mm plate. HE is useful only against paper targets, like the BMP series IFVs or WW2 field guns and some of the same age tank destroyers, all having thin armour. But against a medium/heavy tank or an MBT, HE effectiveness is close to none. You may damage optics or may get a mobility kill throwing a track, but the armour will withstand it.

[@ArcticWipeout]

​@@darionapoli4736I imagine the pressure wave is less than ideal for the crew getting hit by massive caliber HE though, no?

[@spacehobo1095]

Not to mention, deaf concussed tankers are much less likely to be combat effective, if they choose to stay in the tank to begin with. ​@@ArcticWipeout

[@josephd.5524]

the OG BESH warhead

[@notablediscomfort]

Hey just a shot in the dark here but could you do some of those concrete-body JDAMs vs various tanks and such?

[@kurzgeschichte8475]

Wow. I would have expect a HESH-like damage, but not stamping out a piece of armor.

[@Zwiesel9871]

how about a video of a medium or big he shell hitting a light armor machine

[@zaklavelle8576]

the angle is closer to the normal with pentolite, how does it fare without pentolite at the same angle?

[@FrodoSantana]

Shell is so petarded it works

[@u.m.9931]

Can you test the 88mm Kwk-43 against M1 Abrams side turret (afaik it has a somewhat decent protection)

[@iatsd]

How are you modelling the welds, if at all? Based on post war trials, the welds should crack and peel damn near when someone sneezes

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

the armor is not held by the welds alone, the front plate is notched and rests on the upper one, so the force acting on the welds is negligible

[@iatsd]

@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 You've clearly never seen one of these IRL. The gaps in the locating plates are often up to 2cm wide. The ONLY thing holding the locating plates together is the 20-40 lines of weld.

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

@@iatsd Cuts are made for the butt welds, the entire plate is not moved away.

[@jakebingham8555]

What would happen if you stacked shaped charges with a bit of offset? What about apfsds-he?

[@KP-viking88]

If you look at real footage of the Churchill AVRE firing the mortar you will see the angle is much steeper. If this scenario had ever taken place it would more likely be hitting the top of tanks surface rather than a lower front plate

[@HanSolo__]

Churchill AVRE Petard - the real-life Fury.

[@DS-wl5pk]

So did the pentelite or angle cause the difference? Cause it was a major one

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

what changed the situation more was the angle. a regular HE with twice the amount of explosive wouldn't do something like that. Although of course the additional explosive also helped create such a strong impulse

[@m.streicher8286]

What if you replaced 2.5kg pentolite with the majority 808 explosive. (so 11.5kg 808 instead of 8kg 808 + 2.5kg p) I know these aren't quick and easy but I it would be really cool to compare. The designers obviously had intention behind the use of 2 different compounds.

[@benlewis4241]

Designer was the awesome (and possibly mad) Stewart Blacker, he had probable had more experience trying to get explosive to pen armour plate than anyone else in the world at this point.

[@EugenEklange]

what software do you use for the simulations?

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

@@EugenEklange ansys

[@Truck_Company_84]

Now do lower mantlet, just above the hull roof! :D

[@movaumoicong1986]

Can u do the 214kg sturmtiger vs leopard 2a7????❤

[@West_Coast_Mainline]

Thank you for this

[@drache444444]

well, to get the hit angle of the second shot the tiger would've to basically run over the churchill. which as per manual was expressly forbidden XD

[@rmsatlantic]

Cant even beginnto imagine the shockwave

[@cybernetic_crocodile8462]

Could you make a simulation of 6 Pounder Mark 9 Shot vs T-34's upper front plate at the distance of 700 meters?

[@professionalredneck7920]

And yet somehow a 105/25 M43 survived a direct hit from my AVRE???

[@ignacio3154]

ok.... this chanel would play war thunder XD

[@nicolasrouvreau8365]

This thing act like a HESH round.

[@simonh317]

300h? whats the pc specs?

[@nuraly78]

This angle is almost unrealistic, considering the projectile velocity

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

the tiger climbs the hill lol

[@Nitrous_oxide_addict]

Definitely unrealistic but it's the same angle and thickness as the UFP so it would have the same effect there

[@MultiDivebomber]

Might be ringing loud, but at least there's no spalling

[@HellskyMr]

Nice ! Please do Blacker Bombard bomb vs Panzer III H or Char B1 bis ( captured in german service on secondary fronts ) ...

[@HSSdk]

Could you do something like Conqueror (or other tungsten-carbide APDS) against armour with 15-20mm of armour spaced a good amount away? After the surprising effectiveness of ZSU-57-2 Stowage boxes against the 120mm APDS, i wonder how effective it is against proper spaced armour.

[@HSSdk]

An example could be Centurion 30-50 degrees or so off of frontal aspect, with its 10mm Bazooka plates and 2 in side armour

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

video with Tiger APCR was about it

[@HSSdk]

@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 The one against Pershing with concrete?

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

@@HSSdk against Pershing with 10mm plate

[@HSSdk]

Huh, can't seem to find that video for the life of me, is it region locked or something

[@AINGELPROJECT667]

I bet the shockwave alone probably turned the crew into meat soup. Those charges were designed to crack hardened bunkers.

[@ratte6090]

“MY TRANSMISSION! AAAAA”

[@user-qs5te4rw1z]

Как называется программа?🤔

[@amizaur3marcinostrowski186]

Surprising !

[@darklysm8345]

Yeah, where is the Sturmtiger simulation?

[@mrguysnailz4907]

Lmao at how the entire tail end flies backwards

[@ogoemtojestesmuem7708]

The silence is so loud

[@Kacpertost]

how do you calculate this ? what program is this ?

[@ikoiko5311]

I belive that's ANSYS.

[@Kacpertost]

@@ikoiko5311I think I know what is going to be next thing to learn

[@ikoiko5311]

@@Kacpertost I already tried and failed misserably haha. Good luck then.

[@Bot2985-n6g]

What about kv1 gun mantlet vs flak88?

[@joonasnaski9513]

Don't need HEAT if there is enough HE.

[@Zwiesel9871]

even if a bog he shell does not come threw u dont wanna be inside of the tank because it is very loud so u loud u might be going dazed and or deaf

[@berserkguts4185]

HESH??? Look like this same HESH and interesting 100mm penetration because about 40mm only another 10Kg TNT HE ammonutions

[@nttntjno1797]

"Crew knocked out"

[@SpringBonnie_rbx]

What the software called

[@sethharpenger607]

I want everyone to know, even if the spawling is only traveling at 200 meters per second, that's still pinging around the cabin at thigh vaporizing speed

[@abdulalsalay]

Nice, 2nd day requesting Tiger II vs the Sherman with 2 ufp's.

[@AlexVanNugget]

The Jumbo Sherman you mean?

[@abdulalsalay]

@@AlexVanNugget No, just a regular Sherman with another Sherman's frontal plate welded on top of its own Super Pershing style.

[@AlexVanNugget]

@@abdulalsalay Oh I know what you mean. That could almost match the King Tiger's UFP.

[@Ey_SmoKrac]

and thus, 🅱️ESH was born.

[@FrontSideBus]

FV4005 vs Tiger?

[@Manu10900]

Hans! Ze transmission has broken again!

[@Wraith_Of_The_Shadows]

nice! it's not entirely realistic probably, and probably do the animations don't take like 3 years to do each, and maybe even some limitations of software buas far as i know the tiger has atleast a 500mm hole now and crew potato mush, and this was an incredible animation!

[@nicholascazmay2126]

Pentolite - the difference between having a living driver or driverburger.

[@thorthetroodon9938]

What was AVRE made for

[@johncitizen306]

AVRE stands for "armoured vehicle royol engineers" the spigot mortar on the Churchill AVRE was designed to destroy large reinforced bunkers etc

[@GKOYG_and_KAAF_is_epic]

"Das kruup armour stell is no match zee allies sh BOOM"

[@slavakarpov2351]

Конструкция напомнила ударное ядро.

[@theblitz6838]

Luckily, the Tiger can take the Churchill out from a kilometre away.

[@r1zmy]

this thing is basically a 1st gen heatfs shell.

[@Karroe]

It's HEAT-FS on the MODs current budget

[@ThatZenoGuy]

Not HEAT-FS, HESH-FS.

[@Just_a_Dude80]

Pz. 3 J1 pzgr 39 vs Churchill AVRE turret with track armour

[@АлексейБородачёв-ы5е]

The second one looks like HESH

[@fissis1955]

transmission absorbs all spall, 30 second repair, ready to go

[@alexpayne2662]

War t Thunder considers this hit a non penetration

[@andrewpeterson6526]

Time do this video to be stolen a million times on insta and tick tock

[@Ghostmaxi1337]

What is "explosive 808"?

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

early plastic explosive

[@Ghostmaxi1337]

@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 So not Pent or so like in WT? Whats the source, im interested. I only have seen a drawing naming it "nobel explosives" which could be pretty much anything.

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

@@Ghostmaxi1337 808 is written on the grenade, which is also called Nobel's Explosive

[@CMDRFandragon]

Simulation: 0 dmg WoT: 567 dmg

[@PantherRex]

Warthunder players calling this unrealistic😂

[@stoink1846]

i just know this guy has some bullshit happen in war thunder and does this to see if it was possible or not

[@PaulSchulze-lc6lh]

Yes, a hit

[@hevnet]

petarded

[@eggdar.mp4214]

Suboptimal

[@KilledMind1985]

Yoou shpuld compare this to the In-Game results of Warthunder..... and get a sponsorship.

[@kimjanek646]

(…) deleted

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

I wrote this in the video, I didn't expect that adding explosive would significantly "improve" the situation, so I also changed the angle of impact.

[@kimjanek646]

@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174You’re right. Somehow I missed that part where you say you also changed the angle 🤔

[@TheJohn_Highway]

The first simulation is further proof that explosives in WT are ridiculously overperforming. Your old 152mm vs Tiger turret simulation has without a doubt made TankieArchives seethe with rage.

[@Nebelung13]

WT has a finger on those things for "balance" porpuse. But in fairness, armour and shell quality in ww2 is very difficult to access thus, making meaningful data difficult to extrapolate.

[@kimjanek646]

Why? What's wrong with the game and tank archive?

[@kirotheavenger60]

​@Nebelung13 tbh there's a *glut* of data on artillery vs tanks. It's been a major subject of interest for the entire time tanks and artillery has coexisted on the battlefield. 'Balance' is one argument, but it wouldn't need to be so ridiculous if gaijin hadn't added a tonne of derp guns. What it does is mean many many believe that's ana ccurate portrayal of HE effects against tanks, and draw many wrong conclusions.

[@kirotheavenger60]

​@@kimjanek646in the game HE shells massively overperform, and 152mm will reliably one shot at tank. Tank Archives is pretty pro-Soviet, and has an article about how Soviet 152mm guns absolutely blew a Tiger 2 to shreds with ease. It's a pretty poor article, cherry picking the report information it shares and generally exaggerating the situation. 'He'd be raging' because this contradicts that article.

[@hawkstable8889]

@@kirotheavenger60 It's no exaggeration. Late WW2 german tanks were made of steel of varying quality to put it nicely. The British tested a variety of different weapons against a Tiger 1 in 1945 and plates cracking and chunks of armor flying off was a common occurence. When they fired 75mm HE (as used in Churchill and Sherman) between the track and sponson it caused the bottom of the sponson to rupture and the ammunition inside would likely have cooked off. In War Thunder terms this would also have caused an overpressure kill. Remember that this isn't even large caliber HE, this is from a 75mm gun. Additionally a 17pdr APCBC round ricochetting off the front left side armor caused a piece of the tank's roof armor to break off, and a few impacts on the right side caused about a quarter of the entire side plate to break off leaving a big gaping hole in the side of the tank. I have no doubts that 152mm HE could do the same. Large caliber guided artillery has proven to be quite a tank killer in recent conflicts too. Also I think I should point out that in War Thunder 152mm HE will only reliably oneshot tanks via breaching the roof armor. Hitting a Tiger 1 square in the front will not do anything in game because the explosion only "penetrates" a bit over 50mm of armor. This is realistic behaviour when talking about normal quality tank armor.

[@joachimschmitt9001]

Normaly.... No Churchill got with this weapon near enough to a Tiger to hit..

[@Teadrinker-kg4ve]

You literally steal what's new on war thunder and make it into a low effort paint video lol

[@dejmianxyzsimulations4174]

Why so butthurt, kid?

[@pati-mate988]

Bro is literally a Rússia fanboy

[@Wordbird69]

What is your point?

[@TheBoringEdward]

the avre is british

[@rare_kumiko]

Brother those are a British and a German WW2 tank.

[@mecadragoon]

???

[@tsilfidis1996]

Both vehicles here are not Russian...