Cloudy v.s. Clear Liquid Culture: How to fix a cloudy jar

[@daveed6874]

Over cooking your LC does caramelize the sugars but it does not make it as turbid/murky as the bottle in video, generally the caramelized sugars will just settle at the bottom and the LC should still look clear. After you cook LC let it stand for a few days ( I cook it with the lid slightly loose, if the lid is tight it can force the LC through the filter damaging it ) after tightening the lid wait a few days, if not sterilized correctly or if you picked up contamination while tightening the lid , it will be noticable before you inoculate. 9/10 if it is murky/turbid it is a bacterial infection.

[@ZCRAIZED1]

I have only seen a minimum amount of clouding in jars that have been caramelized and the sediment sits at the bottom. The jar in this video absolutely looks like bacteria to me but I have seen others that say they get very clouded and it's still good when put to agar so I can't be certain without trying it myself.

[@ZCRAIZED1]

Something a guy on KZbin with a channel named spore and sprout explained to me made a massive difference in how LC comes out. I have both types of pressure cookers now but at the time I only had the All American that can hold 10 quarts with 7 on the bottom and three on the top. Grain only on the top of course. He explained that when using a presto pressure cooker the water in the cooker is half way up the jar because the trivet used is very short. So putting two or three quarts of water in a presto is quite different than the same amount in an All American because the trivet in the larger All American is typically much higher off the base so the jars are not submerged in water at all. After buying a few presto cookers I have learned there is absolutely a large difference in the results between the two cookers. When using the All American I kept getting sediment at the bottom that would make the mixture clouded when stirred. Using the presto didn't cause that. Evidently the water being half way up the jar acts as a buffer of some sort. When I use the all American for LC now I get good results as long as the water is half way up the jar, as it natural is with the presto. Another thing that helped get perfectly clear LC is cooking at 12 psi instead of 15. I have not noticed the contamination percentage go up when cooking at a lower pressure which inturn translates to a lower temperature. As far as I am aware there are very few bacteria that can survive at 230 other than hyperthermophiles deep in the ocean around hydrothermal vents. These are not likely to be found in an LC mix as they don't grow well below 110 degrees F. Botulism is the other bacteria that the spores can survive at 240 degrees F. So even cooking at 10 psi is 135 and 12psi being around 140 degrees which should do the job and not caramelize the sugar. Personally I start with boiling water so I get the cooker hot and ready for 7 quarts to go in and it takes less time to get up to 12 psi. That reduces the amount of time the LC is at a high temperature and I see a lot less sediment and clouded jars. I have not noticed any more contaminated jars doing this either. That is simply what I do and what I have learned after doing several hundred quarts. I am the type that tries everything and I don't stop trying things just because I found a singular method that I get success from. I also make every mistake that can ever be made I think. When I explain that this is what works for me it is something that has been through the ringer of tests and failures. I hope this helps. Thank you for all you videos.

[@jarvis911]

Thanks for your comment, I made some broth jars the other day, the 2nd lot in the pressure cooker went cloudy so I assumed it was something to do with the PC process, I'll remake them and try using more water in the PC this time

[@ZCRAIZED1]

@@jarvis911 Did you get any better results adding water to the cooker?

[@WhiteBeardHashtag1205]

If a Presto is being used, modify the trivet with 2" stainless steel bolts and washers, 4 of them equally placed toward the outer most holes in the trivet. I wish I could attach a pic in KZbin messages to illustrate. These SS bolts, washers, and nuts have been the standard for years now. You definitely want to raise that trivet. Alternatively, they sell 11" raised trivets on eBay and Amazon for about $12 for a 2 pack if you dont want to add the bolts, washers, and nuts to the stock trivet the Presto comes with

[@ZCRAIZED1]

@@WhiteBeardHashtag1205 I know exactly what you mean about using 4 stainless bolts and nuts as a pedestal to raise the trivet. The only issue that could arise might be the headroom not being adequate to raise very much. 3 of mine are the size that hold 7 quarts. My old All American is the type that holds 10 quarts, 7 on the bottom and three on top. I'm unsure exactly how much room at the top is there with the smaller presto type. Great idea though.

[@WhiteBeardHashtag1205]

@@ZCRAIZED1 what size Presto are you running? I run a 23qt Presto, and even with the raised trivet I can run 10 quart jars. 7 standing up, and 3 on top laying on their side. I normally only run 8 per batch, 7 standing and one on its side on top, because my grain run only fills 8 quart mason jars, but I did test out the 10 jar batch, because I heard you could, and I just wanted to see if its possible. And, it did work just fine.

[@kam2142]

It's impossible to burn the "sugars" unless you let all the water boil and glass breaks first.

[@joshuafreeman6720]

I cook 300ml in pint jars for 45 mins with LME and they look cloudy but always grow and test good on agar

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

If it grows and works awesome. I've alway had issues with growth in cloudy cultures. Even growing on agar it just doesn't grow the same in a cloudy medium.

[@gordyjilbert6852]

I have used molasses for my sugar source, this is because I was completely broke and couldn't afford to buy anything else. Obviously I can't see if there is any sign of contamination due to the color, but wondering if it matters at all as I plan to innoculate a large woodchip garden outdoors? First time doing LQ

[@topseykretts251]

I have a few jars some clear some cloudy and have been putting them to agar and am getting great mycelium growth out of all the jars.

[@brescalofrio1]

even if you caramelize the sugar there is some left for the mycelium to grow

[@DARKW1ZARD616]

Hey have you tried inoculating anything with the cloudy jars

[@topseykretts251]

@brutallyhonest6103 I've done about 20-25 agar dishes, then threw them in 38- 3-5lb spawn bags.I like using agar cause you can colonize a 3-5lb bag of grain in less than 2 weeks were as innoculating with L.C. can take 3-5 weeks,sometimes longer.

[@jrjr9292]

I noticed deer park works great with honey and lme. 25 mins works like a charm

[@pedrohasgas]

I buy your theology, makes sense. I ran a batch the other night and there’s an obvious difference in clarity within the jar. The top 1” is crystal clear, the bottom looks like the corn syrup clarity. It was mixed prior to pressure cooking, and after. Thoughts on this?

[@MrFinner666]

Your video helped me immensely. I just started my first live culture jar. Unfortunately, I bought the jar on Etsy. Who knows how long they cooked it for. Cloudy. Cloudy cloudy.. very unfortunate

[@cristinacassidy604]

This makes sense! I lowered the cooking time instinctively. A half hour of cook time seemed really excessive.

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

One big thing I've noticed too is don't let the water run dry. No water causes overheating as well. Glad you figured it out :)

[@TreyBrown-u6c]

I agree. Cooking too long makes them cloudy for some reason. I only cook for 10 mins.

[@fattymcbastard6536]

Boiling malt causes a hot protein break, just as boiling milk does. It doesn't happen instantaneously, which is why it gets worse the longer you boil. I sterilize mine for 30 minutes and they're crystal clear, but only because my LCs contain only a very stingy amount of malt extract and an equally stingy amount of peptone (like about a sixteenth of a teaspoon). If you insist richer is better, then you might opt to use Irish Moss as a clarifying agent. This involves boiling 60 minutes, add Irish Moss, boil another 15 minutes, chill, and decant the clear liquid off the sediment. Then transfer to your LC jars and sterilize as long as you like.

[@TopGaM3Slay3R]

Can you still use them

[@ZCRAIZED1]

What percentage do you get with only cooking for 10 minutes?

[@ZCRAIZED1]

What percentage contaminated is what I'm asking.

[@WhiteBeardHashtag1205]

I wouldnt cook LC for any less than 20min

[@WhiteBeardHashtag1205]

Ive been making LC for going on 5yrs now, Ive always run for 30min @15psi, and it doesnt cause this. I use ELME and raw sugar, and not once has it come out of my 23qt Presto turbid like this. Only time the turbidity has been off like this is post inoculation and there was an issue.

[@RookieDrifter]

no solids? thats cool. last ones i've made i used 1.5g of honey for every 100mL of water @ less than 15 psi (cause my PC is very simple) for 15 minutes. it's growing nicely and i can see it clearly. not as clear as corn syrup but it does the job so far

[@WhiteBeardHashtag1205]

@@RookieDrifter thats honey for you though, but it makes good LC broth. Im assuming youre running pints for LC since your making them in an Instapot?

[@WhiteBeardHashtag1205]

@@RookieDrifter honey works well for LC broth, but it does indeed have a tendency to make it not quite as clear.

[@RookieDrifter]

1.5g of honey for every 100mL of water for 15 minutes under pressure is doing great on my side. i remove the jars 5 minutes after pressure is gone to avoid solids

[@timspokesmurf9246]

Thanks! I have not been cooking them at all but the heat wave musta fermented one haha

[@thiagorossi3860]

Thank you for your videos! They are very educational. I am more familiar with your old videos. Trying to catch up now. I feel my knowledge is a bit rusty after over a year break from studying mycology. I had experimented little and due to health conditions I was forced to have a break and my LC spoiled meanwhile. I’m ready to restart but now all I have is 1 spore print and 5ml spores suspended on water. Unfortunately I am not able to get more. I have materials for grains on jars, bags, agar, LC, bulk substrate… What would you recommend I start with so I make the best of the little I have? For grains I have access to rye and popcorn by the way. I am interested in starting a good self sustaining cycle loop so I don’t waste the spores I have. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

I would take some of the spores and isolate the culture on agar first. Then make a liquid culture from there. Once you have a good culture on agar keep that in the fridge. Use your new liquid culture and innoculate the rye grain. When you get a few good jars you can use that innoculate grain to make more and more grain. Once you have those put some into bulk substrate. In the end you will have mushrooms growing in bulk, some innoculate rye that you can keep duplicating, liquid culture, and your back up on agar.

[@thiagorossi3860]

@@EarthCapMushrooms thanks! I’ll try. I hope I don’t mess up because so far I have only made a few cakes and LC, which grew beautifully but I didn’t have the chance to use before it spoiled. I will try two agar recipes just in case. Thank you!

[@ishomehome]

15 mins for me, almost daily with my agar.

[@bobwilliams4528]

Mine turned out like that and I was blaming the company that sold the lc shring.I ain't going to lie I was pissed!

[@jasonargonaught8744]

so what was the fix??

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

Lowering the cooking time

[@Javierreymar]

What about bacterial endospores? Only 20 minutes?

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

I've found 20 minutes is more than sufficient to kill bacteria especially when boiled under pressure. If anything survives longer than that in liquid adding 10 or 20 more minutes will not change much.

[@Javierreymar]

@@EarthCapMushrooms thanks for the answer

[@fattymcbastard6536]

PC sterilization won't kill many endospores regardless. If you're concerned with endospores, then mix up the solution a day in advance. During this time, they should all "wake-up" or "hatch" or "germinate" or "activate" or whatever microbiologists call it. Once active, they are easily killed during sterilization.

[@kfeyrer]

what about if you use the leftover filtered rye cook water as your LC recipe? more yeasts in there so its a bit cloudy at 15minsX15psi but I think the mycelium likes it better ?

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

I haven't tried that, but will look into see how it works.

[@jeremiahpoole5704]

I have some cloudy jars but they are growing mycelium well. I believe I overcooked the solution. Am I screwed. Should I just keep let them going it’s been 3 days but they seem to have growth. I’m just really concerned

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

With a strong culture it will definitely grow some on the cloudy jars. I'd start some new ones though and transfer over.

[@miut1983]

Are you cooking 20min from the moment pressure cooker achieves it's working pressure of 15psi or from the moment you put it on the stove?

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

I use an instapot, the timer starts once it is at pressure and temp.

[@miut1983]

@@EarthCapMushrooms hmmm instapot has pressure of 10.15-11.6 psi so definitely not good for sterilisation

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

@@miut1983 With a psi of 11 water will boil at about 365f. At 15 psi water will boil at about 395f. Bacteria will die between 165f and 250f, well below the temperature of the pressure cooker. Really 20 minutes at 15psi is overkill to begin with and even at 11 psi there is not much temperature difference so you will be perfectly fine. I have been cooking all of my jars now only 15 minutes and have crystal clear liquid and never have had any contamination issues since.

[@SilencedByYoutube]

@@EarthCapMushrooms At 11 PSI it's approximately 240F and at 15 PSI it is 250F. Still works fine for sterilization.

[@mitchellbarker9368]

So, did the broth come out of the pressure cooker looking cloudy like that or what? If not, and it got cloudy after you inoculated it, then you got contam.

[@derock5244]

Yes it came out of the pressure cooker cloudy

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

Exactly

[@cjjernigan3276]

Could u explain the science how cooking a jar 10 mins longer causes contam? Burning surgars wouldnt inhibit growth thered just b less nutz and i really doubt 10 extra mins did tht much. Also from what ive read cloudy doesnt exactly mean contamed, zero growth on the otherhand sounds like another issue. Sorry not trying to hate just tryin to understand

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

It doesn't cause contamination. It does seem to inhibit growth though. I'm not sure why cooking longer causes the cloudy jars. I'm just sharing my findings. Since I've cut the time back everything is crystal clear and working great.

[@ezeddiev]

You can’t burn sugar in this much water, Burnt-Sugar Phase Watch out! Above about 350° F(176C) the sugar begins to burn and develops a bitter, burnt taste.

[@ZepHoffman]

i have a 11 psi pressure cooker, it would be ok to sit for 30 minutes? thanks

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

With a psi of 11 water will boil at about 365f. At 15 psi water will boil at about 395f. Bacteria will die between 165f and 250f, well below the temperature of the pressure cooker. Really 20 minutes at 15psi is overkill to begin with even at your 11 psi there is not much temperature difference so you will be perfectly fine. 30 minutes is way overkill and like the video shows overcooking causes cloudiness. I have been cooking all of my jars now only 15 minutes and have crystal clear liquid and never have had any contamination issues since.

[@ZepHoffman]

@@EarthCapMushrooms wow, what a great answer! Many thanks!

[@Mycomania69]

There’s a guy on KZbin that did a test of a few different strains in perfectly cooked and carmelized culture. It made no difference except one grew a tiny faster. I’ve done the same and my albino penis envy carmelized growth was actually faster others were identical growth rates

[@Mycomania69]

If anyone cares the video is by fresh from the farm fungi. It’s titled “does Caramelization affect liquid culture

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

I will definitely check it out, but anytime I have ever tried to put something into a cloudy jar it does not grow well or at all.

[@ezeddiev]

You can’t caramelise sugar in that much water it needs to get to about 160C , it won’t get that hot in water, it needs to be dry to reach them temperature’s.

[@atcaleb]

I had a similar experience. My first time I pc'd 4x quart grain jars and 3x smaller jars with water, peptone, malt and honey for 2 hours at 15 psi. Everything went well and those small cultures filled their jars in 3 weeks and were very clear. I see all this about crystalizing the sugar and maybe we was lucky? I can also say I've done it several times since and always cook for 2 hours and now the internet is claiming crystalized sugars and all this. I must have magic honey and anti-crystal corn syrup.

[@boardmaker955]

i sterilize my liquid culture about 1 hour :)) and all sugars get carmalized but i have success with them

[@ZCRAIZED1]

I cant deal with the lip smacking sounds in this. I love the content of this channel, that sound kills me.

[@psyboardiss223]

❤

[@atmozfear4993]

Bacterial

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

I'll review this video. I guess I didn't make it clear at all. The cloudy jar came directly out of the pressure cooker.

[@bigfatfoot]

No wonder some of my spores never grew in my LC as I cook my LC jiuces up to 1hr. I will try a 20mins cooking of my LC.

[@ishomehome]

😂😂😂 that's rough. Fungi is definitely a learning process

[@14139ful]

Хорошо. А ты уже высаживал эту культуру на агар, или зерно? В жидком состоянии она может не показыаать того что заражена....

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

This is straight out of the pressure cooker. There is only water and malt extract in this. There is no culture at all. The cloudiness comes from overcooking.

[@14139ful]

​@@EarthCapMushroomsну слева у тебя ведь мицелий в прозрачной среде. Верно? Так вот - в нем может быть контаминация и покажет её только при высадке на агар. На сколько мне известно. Если я не прав, то исправь меня пожалуйста.

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

Sorry I wasn't clear. The one on the left is perfect with mycelium growing in it you are right. It came out of the pressure cooker clear then I added mycelium and it grew perfect. The one on the right came out of the pressure cooker cloudy, when injected nothing grows. If you overcook the liquid in the pressure cooker it will come out cloudy and for some reason it inhibits growth.

[@enterthecatalyst]

@@EarthCapMushroomsI get what he is saying. You still need to test the clear culture on agar to ensure there is no contamination. Or risk it when it hits grain. I think you know that already though.

[@EarthCapMushrooms]

@@enterthecatalyst the cloudy jar was never innoculated with anything. That is right out of the pressure cooker cooked too long.