Why The Rat King Works But The Arkham Knight Doesn't

[@iluhvpiink]

boy do developers love using troy baker as a twist villain

[@racheljackson4428]

They sure do.

[@Rockgem12]

So true

[@J0yceJ0star]

And they should keep doing it

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

2 times? Aight a funny coincidence. 3 times? Ok now its on purpose

[@HOTD108_]

Origins: Troy Baker plays Joker, who was secretly impersonating Black Mask. Knight: Troy Baker plays Jason Todd, who "secretly " was the Arkham Knight. Shadow: Troy Baker plays Harvey Dent, who was secretly the Rat King. It's almost surprising that Troy Baker didn't play Quincy Sharp (who was secretly the Spirit of Amadeus Arkham serial killer in Asylum) or Clayface (who was secretly decoy Joker in City). Wow, the Arkham series REALLY likes having characters pretend to be other people, although I suppose that's fitting for a series about a man who disguises himself as a bat.

[@justalireza6725]

At first when I saw Joe I didn't know he was chill like that

[@oofiethetroll2059]

lol 😂

[@GlitchingRobin]

"Say that again"

[@mbmyt4973]

@@justalireza6725 I like that

[@Probably_Deadpool]

@@GlitchingRobin”They might as well call this place crime alley..”

[@GlitchingRobin]

@Probably_Deadpool "yea.. yea I think that'll catch on!"

[@ian7064]

I like how Harvey mimics his father when says "Bad news, kid" there at the end. Shows the way his dad is influencing the Two Face persona decades later

[@lewisaino]

It shows that Two Face is actualy two personalities

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

Think it goes to show what this whole rat king persona was all about, self destruction. Harvey couldn't get past his need to punish the bad guy, so when he found evil on both sides of the law and society he literally needed to become to different people to persecute them. Once the curtains unveiled, he's found himself the at fault by either flip of the coin just like his dad did.

[@mattthegoat606]

​@@lewisaino Harvey father too

[@mattthegoat606]

Yes and all this remember me of Batman the eye of beyonder a.k.a one of the best origins stories for two face

[@guardianwolf6667]

The moment where Dent has Joe at gun point is, at least for me, the best moment in the whole game, maybe even the series. As Batman tries to reason with Harvey, and gets a gun pointed right at him during such an emotional moment, I had the instinct to take off the cowl well before the game even told me to. Playing the game through the eyes of the Batman instead of over his shoulder really does make it feel more personal.

[@Ownko]

Wait, the game actually tells you to remove your cowl? I waited for what seemed an eternity (it was just a couple of seconds) to see if the game told me to remove it but it never prompted me, the dialogue was so well done it just felt natural to do it. Man that moment had me saying "Holy shit I'm actually doing the thing!" You simply can't do this on a flatscreen game. And I'm sad many will miss on such powerful moment (of many!) just because they're reluctant to try VR.

[@HOTD108_]

​@@OwnkoIt's less that we're reluctant to try VR and more that we can't afford to try VR. Buying the right VR gear is incredibly expensive, and Arkham: Shadow in particular requires a very specific brand of VR (MetaQuest 3). Not to mention that there are very few "must play" VR games out there, so even if prices weren't too expensive (which they are) it would still be hard to justify buying a MetaQuest 3 for JUST Arkham: Shadow, because no matter how good it may be, it's only one game. ClownPuncher, all due respect, was literally given all his VR equipment for free. If somebody gave me a free MetaQuest 3, then yeah I'd give VR a try, of course I would, but that's not how it works. People's "reluctance" to try VR is the same as their "reluctance" to buy a PS5, or a car, or a house, or whatever else. It's not from a lack of willingness that people aren't trying VR.

[@darthahsoka3518]

​@@Ownko You have the game set, where did you buy it And hiw was the whole experiencw

[@KingZolem]

The idea of the Rat King never existing and being a Stand Alone Complex is a fascinating idea and one that would be interesting to explore.

[@The_Phantasm]

I admit, Harvey was actually my primary suspect for the Rat King long before the game came out. The reason being is that I was actually rewatching the episode "Judgment Day" from the DCAU were Harvey had created a third personality called The Judge separate from Two-Face in order to dispense justice. After that I was also rereading the arc in the comics from Shadow of the Bat where Two-Face did the same and created the personality of Janus. That being said, I absolutely loved how Two-Face was used in the game.

[@HOTD108_]

Of course your mind is going to default to Two-Face when you've been consuming a bunch of existing Two-Face specific media, comics and shows, before release. Even if the Rat King wasn't Harvey, you still probably would've thought it was him lol.

[@The_Phantasm]

@HOTD108_ That's an extremely nonsensical thing to say. Yes I happened to consume some of Two-Face media beforehand, but what do you even mean by me thinking it was Harvey even if it wasn't? If it was revealed to be someone else then I would be wrong. Plain and simple.

[@mat7083]

@@The_PhantasmTake off the mask, Andrea! I know it’s you. I consumed NOTPH just to prepare to make this comment! HA!

[@justinmanfre6377]

@the_phantasm bro I see u on all the channels I watch small world😭

[@HOTD108_]

​@@The_Phantasm ​Nonsensical how? If you've just spent a bunch of time consuming Two-Face media, then you ARE going to have Harvey at the forefront of your mind. It's basic psychology. You literally admitted yourself that you guessed it was Harvey super early on. You seriously think you instantly guessing Harvey was the Rat King and you being balls deep in Two-Face stories immediately prior is just a big coincidence? Why are you so defensive about this as if it's a bad thing? Lmao chill out bro, I wasn't attacking you, I'm merely pointing out the fact that if you've already spent a lot of time thinking about a specific character then of course it's not going to take much for them to come to mind again because that's psychology 101. This will be a silly hypothetical, but it's the same as if you spent loads of time watching movies about pineapples and reading books all about pineapples constantly for some reason. Then the next day somebody asks you to name any fruit; I'd bet my life savings that you'd very quickly say "pineapple" because you've already got the thought of pineapples heavily on your mind. Harvey is your pineapple in this analogy. There's no need for you to get pissed off over this.

[@MohaganyXD]

I’ll never forget the Batman Arkham Video’s theory vid where their first suspect on the Arkham knight was Jason Todd lol

[@JoelKellenProductions]

Pretty sure it was everyone’s first suspect, and Rocksteady thought they were being slick by denying it right to our faces

[@notsmrt4521]

@@JoelKellenProductions they dod the exact same thing with Arkham Origins, where most people knew the villain was gonna be joker, then they directly said "Jokers not in this game"

[@HOTD108_]

​​@@notsmrt4521I can't wait for the "Batman: Arkham Beyond" game where it's revealed that Jason Todd was secretly Joker the entire time, bringing it all full circle lmao. Tbf they did something similar in (spoiler alert!) the animated Batman Beyond movie, but it was Tim Drake not Jason. So, there's a sort of precedent for it.

[@negative6442]

@@notsmrt4521 they loooove their joker. Maybe a little too much imo

[@HybridGamer72]

Troy Baker and Roger Craig Smith back as the Villain and heroes respectively, honestly they're both great and I hope they both stay there characters for the future

[@HOTD108_]

It's funny how Roger and Troy keep playing the hero and villain together. I mean they even did it for Sonic Forces. Pretty soon Roger will be voicing Super Mario and Troy will be the new Bowser lol.

[@garfieldfan925]

Officer Balls worked better than both of them.

[@VaclavRytina]

BWHAHAHAHAHAA

[@FandeJay]

...Nygma Balls?

[@HOTD108_]

​@@FandeJayReally Nygma?

[@KenJacox-zg7rf]

BHAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH Joker

[@oofiethetroll2059]

Watched Scream for the first time around Halloween, and I’ve been watching a bunch of videos about it. I finally watch a non-Scream video, then you play the clip from it. I can’t escape it…

[@HOTD108_]

"Which video do you think will use the clip?" "EVERY VIDEO IS A SUSPECT!"

[@ajayila7755]

The only point I would disagree with is that Jason’s hallucinations are purely to establish him as a suspect and have no impact on the story. Joker very clearly explains to you that the reason he’s showing you these hallucinations, particularly the final one is so that Batman doesn’t repeat the mistake of letting another Robin go by himself to get killed, leading to Bruce locking up Tim. It furthers the idea that both the Joker infection and Fear Toxin are causing Bruce to act more and more irrationally. Still agree that the Harvey flashbacks are paced better in Arkham Shadow and aren’t as in your face as the Jason flashbacks, but the latter definitely serves a purpose in the plot of Arkham Knight.

[@DouglasBurton]

I don't think that's why he locked him up. TLDR; he's scared he'll lose control, and knows that an out of control Batman is most likely to get them all killed than anything else. It's been a while but I feel like I recall Batman Arkham VR explains it better, in that game Batman dreams about how only he would be good enough to kill Nightwing & Robin. So Batman locks Robin up because he's worried that going crazy will lead to him killing Robin. In the Arkham City hallucination of Batman getting in the jail pod thing, the last thing Robin says is "Of course (I'll be fine), you trained me.", calling back to the dream in Arkham VR of his fear that they wouldn't be able to stop him if he lost control to the Joker.

[@HOTD108_]

Sure, but the fact Jason Todd is literally never even mentioned (obscure Easter Eggs don't count) in any previous Arkham game before Knight. Those scenes probably wouldn't have been in the game if Jason wasn't the Knight, as the series seemingly had no interest in bringing him up explicitly even once prior to the introduction of some "mysterious new character". It's pretty obvious that the plot of Arkham Knight wasn't the original intent for a sequel to Arkham City and so a lot of retroactive catch-up work had to be done to establish who Jason even was. Asylum and City were both mainly written by Paul Dini, but Dini wasn't re-hired for Knight for whatever reason, so Rocksteady basically just made up their own conclusion to what the previous games were setting up and oh boy it really shows in how rushed and forced most of the story beats in Knight feel (the lazy resolution to Hush's story being the worst offender). Arkham Knight's story is the equivalent of getting somebody else to do all your homework, but then suddenly you're all alone to sit the final exam without help and just have to wing it.

[@dylansharp8471]

@@DouglasBurton "In the Arkham City hallucination of Batman getting in the jail pod thing" When was that?

[@DouglasBurton]

@@dylansharp8471 Ah I meant Arkham Knight, the cells they were putting the Joker infected patients in. This part, kzbin.info/www/bejne/janJqKycgamrf7s

[@aaronproctor3623]

I've seen a video essay that argues Batman knew it was Jason the whole time. And if you play Arkham Knight with that thought the game makes more sense. Batman is supposed to be the greatest detective l, but spends the whole game in the dark, only to have a lackluster emotional breakdown in the reveal of Jason. Wish I could remember the video to share it.

[@Neutral_Tired]

One final point for why the Harvey flashback scenes work, we already know he'll be a villain and we know which villain. Pretty much every fan of Batman knows Harvey will eventually become Two-Face. Even if the fact that the scenes are focusing on Harvey stands out to you as a viewer, the most natural assumption is that they're just setting up Two-Face, that Harvey becoming Two-Face will be one of the many consequences of the Rat King's actions. Just adding more stakes and consequences to the conflict.

[@TheAmbassador0]

@@Neutral_Tired reminds me of the start of the PS4 spiderman game. First time we see Otto, he's not a supervillain. But the pipes and tubing behind him tell you Exactly what's coming your way

[@YaGirlAshleyy]

I think that the arkham knight "who is it" could have worked if Alfred came in saying things like "i believe it could be a Jake Collins" with Batman immediately saying things like "I arrested him nine months ago he didn't have time to build an army, widen the search to..." as it would add nice off screen lore, could be easily done by using the names of the devs and would add to the world's greatest detective title, and possibly even add villains unseen for a long time like Drewy Walker as a suspect only ruled out by the fact that the knight can go hand-to-hand with Batman

[@shibasarecute]

@YaGirlAshleyy that would build the world furthur but it wont really help with this problem

[@LegitTapeSplicer]

I haven't played the game yet, but your descriptions immediately reminded me of the Long Halloween. The whole comic, the writers are constantly throwing new suspects at you, even the correct one, and I still had no clue who it was until the end.

[@HOTD108_]

Not sure if you've seen it yet, but HBO's The Penguin show that's currently airing has loads of Long Halloween stuff in it as well. It's a very popular comic to take inspiration from it seems.

[@HOTD108_]

If I remember correctly Arkham: Origins had quite a lot of Long Halloween elements in it too, with the theme of old school gangster criminals being replaced with new and wilder costumed villains being the main parallel. It's fitting, since in the comics Long Halloween is the next big major event following Batman Year One (Long Halloween is effectively "Batman Year Two" in the comics, to the point where it outright explicitly retcons the actual Year Two comic that had been released earlier out of continuity).

[@Gvader10]

That's because it's a very poorly done twist. About-Faces breaks it down pretty well in his "Grace of Gilda" series on LJ

[@Bryan-dr5qy]

Arkham Knight could've also benefitted the approach used by the movie adaptation of the Winter Soldier. The Winter Soldier reveal wasn't meant to be the major twist of the story, it was not so much about it being Bucky more so than it was about how did Bucky survive the events of the first movie. So by putting it early the rest of the movie could be spent wondering what happened to Bucky, and as the pieces were slowly revealed it led into the actual twist of the movie, SHIELD being infilitrated by HYDRA. Arkham Knight leaves a lot of the sympathising in the audio tapes with Barbara, which are brilliant finds but could definitely have played a role in the plot proper. That being said, Arkham Knight suffers from the fact that Jason was never explicitly mentioned in prior games outside of easter eggs and the existence of Tim Drake. But if they put the reveal earlier in around the Ace Chemicals portion of the game, then Batman could've spent the rest of the game going after Harley, Two Face, Penguin, anyone who could give you a lead as to what happened to Jason, giving the villains and Batfamily with more things to do in the main story outside of side missions. And then when Barbara is rescued she could tell you about how Jason still has some humanity left in him. That makes the final fight with Batman trying to reason with Jason make more sense and having him ditch the Arkham Knight persona and becoming the Red Hood could actually be more than just a footnote in the story.

[@linearman0245]

Yea, this is a better way to handle it.

[@noreeaki]

I remember an Arkham encyclopedia where it mentioned the fact that Batman knew who the Arkham Knight was but was in denial because of his fear of failing his family, this obviously wasn't the intent the game had but it honestly makes the game feel more 'cohesive' if ykwim

[@Bryan-dr5qy]

@@noreeaki Maybe you could have Jason unmask himself in the fear toxin portion of the game around the time the Joker reappears. Then you can have Bruce be in denial and go on a manhunt for whoever can give him a lead on Jason.

[@Brombones2000]

Why not add to this by making those halucination sequences being Batman reviewing and double checking the tapes Joker sent him to look for clues he may have missed the first time around because he couldn't focus or think straight due to grief and worry and anger. Subtle clues in the tapes lead Batman across Gotham while also dealing with Scarecrow.

[@noreeaki]

@@Bryan-dr5qy i agree, there should've been a point that made Batman go 'No, it can't be.' Him constantly asking Alfred about it can be a byproduct of it

[@ilanselaphiel2557]

Seeing as they were doing a Two-Face origin story, my primary suspect was actually Alberto Falcone, the son of Carmine who was the killer in Long Halloween. Add to that his therapy sessions with Qunizel and Strange, as well as his last tape in Origins, promising that the wolves would descend on Gotham reminding me of the King's broadcasts, I really thought I was onto something!

[@Oeoats09]

In Arkham Shadow. To quote Randy Meeks "EVERYBODY'S A SUSPECT"

[@robertperry934]

10:58

[@milkiassamuel780]

I really loved how this game recontextualises Two-Face's origin in such a clever way as they were very cautious with what lore they established in previous Arkham games and used said small details to make this very compelling take on Two-Face's origin as the Rat King leaving very little objective plotholes and feeling naturally organic to the Arkhamverse timeline and developing Harvey's brotherly bond with Bruce Wayne. I absolutely LOVE that final scene of Dent holding Joe Chill at gunpoint. You, as the player, are compelled to stop him since you grow to understand Joe and see how he truly felt remorse for killing Bruce's parents and seeing Harvey at the brink of a mental breakdown, crying over how Joe took away Bruce's parents really hits hard as we've also grown to understand Bruce and Harvey's bond on a deeper level that the previous Arkham Games never had the time to explore as it not only creates a good twist in the story, compared to Arkham Knights predictable twist, but it also makes you sympathise with Arkhamverse Two-Face as we see his origin play out, it's just so well handled that Im amazed they were able to execute all of these emotional stakes in a VR game? Can I also say that both Troy Baker and Roger Craig Smith gave fantastic performances in this game, too, as you really felt the pain in both of their voice performances. It is also crazy to think that Scarecrow played a substantial role in creating multiple Batman villains like Two-Face, Harley Quinn, Ventriloquist, and Poison Ivy (?); it really makes his build-up as the main villain of Arkham Knight feel a lot more earned. By the way, how funny is it that Troy Baker voiced Harvey Dent/Two Face/The Rat King and Arkham Knight/Jason Todd?

[@Tommedian]

For me, the hallucinations didn’t give the twist away because I was pretty sure Harvey would be a major character even if he’s not the Rat king

[@ManiacX1999]

This and Lady Arkham are the best video game exclusive twist villains of the Batman mythos. Kept me guessing and the reveal was satisfying and not cheap.

[@noneedtoknow-yv2tu]

Exactly.

[@CurtisCreates]

This is where Hush could have come in for an important part of the mystery in Arkham Knight. Jason could have been a perfect red herring if Hush was the Knight, or vice versa

[@linearman0245]

Yea, him too.

[@skyco8407]

@@CurtisCreates dang so true

[@cherrybramble]

another thing that makes this failure so much more egregious; bruce isn't just finding out that his basically-son is the arkham knight; he's finding out that his son is ALIVE. his first line, rather than saying Jason is dead, should've been asking, "you're alive??" with much more turbulence in his voice

[@MSI-i17s]

Give Camoulfaj another chance to make a Batman game, WB, they absolutely left us fans speechless with the gameplay and story!!!!

[@LARVideos]

With an Arkham City scope this time!

[@Ownko]

If that happens the VR haters will riot again, LOL.

[@LARVideos]

@@Ownko I always find it weird to say "VR haters" since most people who say they hate VR either haven't tried it, or had a bad experience and group all of VR together with that bad experience.

[@Ownko]

@@LARVideos You're right, "haters" is kind of a strong word. My brain keeps forgetting "VR naysayers" better describe that group.

[@fedweezy4976]

​@@LARVideos I don't hate VR, but I think there's a lot of people with my opinion of "I'm not gonna drop a couple hundred dollars to play this one game" yeah I know there are lots of good VR games, but I'm not invested enough to want to buy them. Same reason why I don't like console exclusives. This is more of a problem here because the previous Arkham games weren't VR. It's like if every halo game was available for all consoles until halo reach or halo 3. It just suck knowing you'd like the game, but you don't have the money to buy a VR headset.

[@vinnyv6665]

I think this is my favorite video you've ever done. It shows the potential of a team of creators who love and care about their product. Hoping to see a full playthrough and more deep analysis.

[@Thedarkknight27474]

9:34 I can’t 😂 that Alfred impression

[@RedcoatTrooper]

I am revoking ClowPunchers English accent privileges

[@Xehanort10]

6:05 One of the best things about Shadow was that it didn't pull another "Everything's about The Joker."

[@dalekemperor1505]

I also would like to add, the flashbacks with Harvey, I feel like it can also be played off as making you care about Harvey before Bruce himself accidentally splashes those chemicals on him and makes him two-face, showing how much Bruce and Harvey cared for one another only for things to lead to that.

[@spaceybunny00007]

When I first saw this game I thought “okay well I know it’s not Harvey because he’s two face, they wouldn’t make one guy 2 different villains” and then I was *wrong*

[@michaelramon2411]

I spent most of the game suspecting it was either Dent or Dr. Thompkins, in large part because of the dreams. Right before the ship I eliminated Thompkins because she could have easily failed to pass the tape Malone gave her to Alfred, but I still held that Yamashiro's behavior didn't make any sense and Joe's disappearance was suspicious. I only pegged Dent for certain with the discovery that the Rats on the boat were in cages and TYGER was present, which demanded someone with authority. I think the game would have benefited a bit from Dent having more physical presence - you don't even talk to him after saving his life in Chapter 1! He could show up occasionally, like when you first leave the prison infirmary (he stopped by to see Thompkins while at the prison on other business, he questions Malone after some trouble, or Bolton orders the yard cleared because the DA is coming through), or demonstrating that he is mounting his own investigation and keeping an eye on the Rats at Blackgate. This would have the additional benefit of retroactively hinting that Dent is up to something at Blackgate, since he was in fact oversea the retrofitting of a ship full of bombs beneath the place. Still, a very good game overall.

[@Memoquin1866]

I feel like there are two main ways ‘twist villains’ are written. One is the identity of the villain, the other is the identity of the villain being likely known but his intentions being less so. If feel that AK chose the latter but just missed hitting it perfectly

[@finnmurphyfilms]

Actually, i always thought that the Jason flashbacks slso show why batman doesn't trust Tim in the field, even as far back as city, batman does the dangerous stuff, not letting tim be anything more than support at most.

[@Handyrandy2233]

Gary should have just dropped the Arkham knight persona and just have Jason be red hood from the get go.

[@DarthJogor]

But the game couldnt have the Word arkham in that case

[@umtic]

or I guess they could have made it less of a twist, but rather something we are told by him from the get go

[@Moonking_Is_Back]

@@DarthJogor they could have thought of another word

[@Stormtrooper-td2ky]

That’s a pretty bad idea

[@Dododeath]

@@DarthJogor have him call himself the arkham hood, then he finds a red hood and he calls himself red hood

[@CSReed]

I didn’t suspect Harvey to be the Rat King at all! I absolutely love Harvey and my mind was BLOWN!

[@toaolisi761]

The writing was so phenomenal with its growing suspect list, and making you second guess yourself, that I started suspecting Leslie Thompkins since she saw Bruce grow up and those flashbacks felt like hints about her being the true villain. Hell, I even thought her motive could be that she wanted to create a villain that Batman couldn't defeat so he'd hang up his cowl. She also mentioned she knew some of the Rats when they were kids. Regardless the true villain was a great twist, and it's satisfying to see it's not just Joker that can really test Batman.

[@nielsfrederiksen6636]

I am glad people are back talking about this. I feel like a lot of people warmed up to Arkham Knights story, now that its quite far behind us, but having replayed the game not too long ago, it really does suck. Hard.

[@Stormtrooper-td2ky]

How so?

[@nielsfrederiksen6636]

​@@Stormtrooper-td2ky Jason is never in the Asylum/City or even Origins story. Suddenly hes just shoehorned in there and the game tries to make it this grand reveal, but its obvious from far off and doesnt really work. Joker is back, but not really. And its never really properly explained. Batman is militarized throughout the game, especially with the Batmobile. Just doesnt fit him, imo. Batman is a detective and a ninja. And finally, Batman just surrenders at the end. Even though he still had Nightwind and Catwoman as backup. Could easily have handled Scarecrow, even without his belt. Hush and Azraels stories are just dropped pretty hard. Its clear they werent prioritized. To me, all these issues makes the games story really weird and mishandled.

[@ChrisBear1989]

Batman isn't militarized. His resources are vast, and him using a tank(We see him use one in the more grounded Batman Begins). Thats not really an issue at all. Yeah he's a detective and a Ninja but he's also a billionaire with vast resources(As I said above). Its pretty well established he uses said resources to fight Crime in Gotham(And in this case anyone trying to take control of the city). Yes he is pushed to places that are beyond what we expect but he also has the Joker inside him so that could also be affecting him. Joker is dead but he is also inside Batman's mind(Its explained well given its a comic book based video game). It comes as a result of a rare disease caused by the Titan infection(Which Joker used some of his own infected blood into Batman in Arkham City). Those other Jokers that were in game have roughly the same issues Batman does(But a bit different). To the world Joker is dead but Batman is hiding that he has Joker in his mind. Batman "surrendering" is because he wants to handle it himself and he is also aware Jason is tracking him at that time(The game even implies this to). He also didn't want to risk anyone else getting hurt and he already went through Oracle fake dying. He's not really good with people he cares about dying on him. Sure Hush and Azrael's stories weren't up to snuff but thats about as much as you got.

[@nielsfrederiksen6636]

@@ChrisBear1989 Those are in-universe explanations, but none of them make me like the game more. The story simply doesnt resonate with him. Batman is militarized by the tank, but also by the highly armored and technical Batsuit. I dont like that. I dont want Batman to be a rip-off of Iron Man. I want a more believable suit and more crimes to investigate(like in Origins or City) and less tank battles and fear takedowns. I dont care that the joker is "inside him" because of a rare disease and mix up. It comes off a cheap gimmic to bring Mark Hamil back and to make the Joker a huge presence. Again. After he died. It also takes the focus off of Scarecrow and diminishes him as a main villain. You can explain away pretty much anything, but that doesnt make it good storytelling. At the end of the day, I found the story bad and boring, and "well, actually.." explanations doesnt change that.

[@ChrisBear1989]

Batman being more militarized was necessary considering he had an entire army invading and actual tanks. He's responding to the threat. He isn't a rip off of Iron man but ok.... dude... "I don't care that the Joker is inside him" I mean fine whatever but this isn't bad storytelling. You can dislike it but don't call it bad storytelling or "boring" Oh and even in the comics Batman has some crazy suits(Like that one suit he uses to go to Apocalypse to rescue his son Damian). This is also the same man that in the DCAU(Different continuity but still) he creates a new Batman suit thats super tech advanced. Batman has always had gadgets and such in his arsenal. He may of not started out that way but tech has always been involved with Batman.

[@umbrellazandthangz1539]

not gonna say first, but I am gonna say The Rat King was the second best Arkham villain for me! other than Joker from Origins!

[@diegodavilafritsch4430]

@@umbrellazandthangz1539 And for me, the third one Is Scarecrow

[@umbrellazandthangz1539]

@diegodavilafritsch4430 ofc Scarecrow should be up here, other than the rat king. SCARECROW'S THE TRUE VILLAIN IN THIS GAME

[@darthahsoka3518]

​@@umbrellazandthangz1539for me Penguin is fourth, always love a new take of Cobblepot

[@jamespopcornfrfr]

that boy aqua said in his review that he knew who the rat king was 3 hours into the game so i guess he’s the worlds greatest detective

[@Shalashaska-x5x]

That is so bullshit, it crossed my mind early in the game before I thought about other suspects, the same thing probably happened with him and so he just said he knew, there is not nearly enough evidence to know its harvey that early in the game.

[@jediman6166]

It wasn’t that hard. By flashback number 2 I figured it out. The fact that Dent was only in 2 scenes set in the modern day, yet was in every single flashback meant that there was some big twist coming. If it was supposed to set up Two-Face as a victim of the Rat King there would have been more “Harvey in the modern day”. It came across more as a “we want Harvey to be the Rat King but we want it to feel earned and he doesn’t fit anywhere in the Malone section, so let’s just do flashbacks” had he showed up to question Malone a few times I wouldn’t have guessed it, but because he wasn’t really in the modern day it kinda made it obvious.

[@borderlinecrazy6444]

​@@Shalashaska-x5xthere is, but it's not so much from a mystery perspective and more from a storytelling perspective. Batman couldn't have figured it out any earlier, but the focus on Harvey in the flashbacks does set him up to be important and there's not really any other pay off that could fit the bill

[@danterobles4819]

My theory is that the rat king wasn't a person but rather an idea where at first someone created the idea of the rat king in order to spark a revolution and over time multiple people heard of the rat king and started to believe that the rat king is a living breathing person.

[@BrotherHercules01]

Love the reaction Harvey has at the end with the face reveal. Can say his reaction was the moment two face was really born

[@thewaterlord27]

I knew Arkham knight was Jason Todd when he called Batman “old man” in the helicopter at Ace chemicals. I knew if you were to call someone that you have to consider them a father figure.

[@beckywilson1550]

My main complaint about the game is the rat catcher was under used image if you were chasing him in a sewer and him using rats to attack batman and the rat catcher should have been a cult leader like catnap from poppy playtime chapter 3

[@dr.mixer8930]

@@beckywilson1550 oh like he's like his right hand man

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

Yeah I was really hoping for a rat catcher boss fight. That would've been nightmare fuel in VR!

[@lukasevans8265]

I think the fact that Jonkler wasn't there to ruin the twist made it all the more satisfying, Great Video!

[@nont18411]

“Jonkler”😂

[@birdboy37]

the joe chill reveal was honestly more surprising to me than the rat king reveal i was gobsmacked

[@reaper1162]

I don't have the money for this game but I have always love the games as a kid and I can't wait to play this one for myself but I'm gonna keep watching your speedrun/playthrough

[@tylerdiaz6956]

I remember when they told me I was the rat king I audibly said “Nuh uh”

[@MagicDetective543]

I remember how you said about Two Face being a favorite of yours so I couldn’t wait for you to cover this. I hope you make another video about the Arkham Shadow tapes soon!

[@Yesyes54894]

Idk I never thought arkham Knight was a secret as soon as I saw the first trailer. I immediately thought "oh they're doing a red hood game." In shadows, you're clueless most of the time you don't get to see the rat king at all before the reveal. But when I saw a techno evil batman, my first thought was red hood

[@ansongordon-creed4047]

Genuinely smart writing; giving scenes dual purposes, and using it to misdirect the audience. I'll have to keep that in mind.

[@RonnieFlare17]

Thanks for making this video! I really enjoyed it. And, if I may, I think another aspect that makes this reveal work is other Two Face stories outside the Arkham universe. Like, look at The Dark Knight, where Dent is literally called ‘Gotham’s White Knight’, and the story has moments that highlights his charisma and ability to inspire people. I think the Rat King is a dark mirror of that. Like Harvey, the Rat King wants to destroy the root of Gotham’s crime and corruption, in a much more violent and scorched-earth kind of way. And he inspires a bunch of people to believe a better life, a better Gotham is possible if they follow his lead. Hope that makes sense!

[@diegodavilafritsch4430]

When the Arkham Knight falls, the Rats rise

[@darthahsoka3518]

This is why i like that when they adapted the Arkham Knight in the comics, they made them a different character, somethjng many were sorta hoping him to he 24:03 I literally felt my heart pang when I hear them voice Bruce's voice when he finds out I'mma be honest I thought the Rat Kimg was gonna be Crane in the guise of the Scarecrow

[@biqsy9843]

I always knew we were gonna get two face this game and when we got the hallucinations it just proved that theory… But I NEVER expected him to be the rat king too. Great twist, camoflauj needs another run at arkham vr cuz this game was amazing

[@drippnjimmy1033]

This game is so good it makes me want the devs to remake asylum in vr too.

[@Bana_Frog]

I think saying that the Rat King reveal is just a "footnote" in the whole story hits the nail on the head. Knight's story was mostly about the Arkham Knight reveal, so it falls flat, but Shadow is entirely about Bruce's shadow, dealing with his personal issues, his rage seen in Origins. The game wasn't trying to only shock with a twist, it was trying to tell an emotional story and succeeded. I still think that like Jason's the flashbacks make it obvious Harvey is the Rat King, but the game still succeeds because there's so much more to it than just a shallow moment of shock. To me, Malone might as well have been the Rat King because neither were real. What was real was Harvey falling down the path of vengeance because of his own love for Bruce and jealousy of Batman, just as much as his trauma and mental illness and Crane making it worse. Harvey, even Bolton maybe, and Batman all might've had good intentions at some point, but vengeance isn't the right way. Bruce is the only one to learn that and not be consumed by it when confronting his shadow and come out as the more compassionate and complete man he's meant to be. The hero that's needed but not the one Gotham deserves. Batman shouldn't be vengeance. He may start that way, but I think he should always grow beyond that to represent what a true hero is. I still want to add that Harvey getting amnesia to forget Batman's identity in the game right after Origins where Bane got amnesia to forget Batman's identity is really goofy. Bruce unmasking was definitely the right call but something else should've happened to resolve it, like the Harvey personality deciding to keep that knowledge a secret from Two-Face and accidentally making him hate Batman even more knowing Dent is protecting him in some way.

[@ClownPuncher139]

@@Bana_Frog That very well could be the real-world explanation for why Harvey forgets. Camouflaj collaborated with an expert on DID to ensure they portrayed all aspects of the disorder as accurately as possible. Meaning the amnesia is likely rooted in the disorder as well. The personality that knows burying itself deep down in Harvey could be a real explanation, but I’m not enough of an expert to say.

[@Tigershark5639]

Its insane how a VR spinoff game smoked the "next big entry in the franchise" in every way it seems.

[@ParrotPentester]

"Oh yeah, that's my son; uh, I might need to handle this a bit more gently, Alfred, what do you think?" - ClownPuncher139, 2024

[@Collegebaitreviewer]

This about to be a banger

[@bvang0520]

Story reminds me of the Long Halloween story where there's multiple suspects, and anyone can be the Rat King. Plus, Batman is still fairly new in his crusade as well and Harvey did it for a loved one

[@explosivtarknas1996]

Clue is really getting the respect it deserves lately. A lot of people have been mentioning it these last few months.

[@Mister_Shoe]

29:50 Bro forgot the first rule of comedy

[@waynemetheny5279]

there's a formula. a very simple formula. EVERYBODY'S A SUSPECT!

[@SilentSnake1998]

Perfect reference

[@player_lv430]

Spoilers just in case: I kept denying Harvey's "incident" the whole game. When it finally happened I was in shock. Then it clicked, but I didn't want to accept it. This was perfect. Edit: I'd also like to say that I believe that Two-face was always there, but the incident was able to represent better.

[@Anthony_TNT]

Same

[@e_knees8816]

I mean the Rat King is his original second personality in this continuity. It seemingly manifested as a way to keep the promise to Bruce and get revenge and kill Joe.

[@RicJiang]

It was the red hood dlc that’s immediately gave Jason away for me. And the Jason flashbacks made it 10000 more obvious

[@HOTD108_]

17:36 They're not alternate timelines lol. They're just fear hallucinations. The events depicted with nightmare Batman aren't things that actually happened, they only exist inside Bruce's subconscious.

[@Speak22wastaken]

Duh, that is very clearly what was meant by it, it’s Batman thinking through what would have happened if he was stronger, better, more willing to kill

[@CoNnOr5899]

Multiverse brainrot

[@SCF721]

The difference is that Arkham Shadow clearly revolved around the mystery whereas Arkham Knight's mystery was a small part of the story as seen with pretty much every significant part of said mystery being handled offscreen (Alfred's investigation as well as Jason's entire arc). I remember seeing an alternate design for Red Hood's mask (both as concept art and an in game model) and I still feel like Jason wasnt always meant to be the Arkham Knight because given how big of a moment this should have been for Batman, youd think the game would have dedicated more time to fleshing this out. While I hate the "this is a totally new character and not an old character with a new name" lie, Arkham Shadow handled this phenomenally.

[@rudyproductions4557]

I initially read the tagline in the thumbnail as “Why He And He Works Doesn’t” and thought I was having a stroke!

[@dSWISHm]

They need people who wrote this game's script to right the next arkham game's script if there's gonna be a similar story

[@Stormtrooper-td2ky]

21:55 actually they do further Batman’s second arc in the game. That being Batman feeling guilty for the people he cares for becoming casualties of the war against crime. Batman feels guilty which is why he saw an reimagination of Barbara being shot by Joker and Jason being tortured by Joker. The resolution to this arc is the that Batman learns that he isn’t responsible for his allies becoming casualties because they chose to fight with him. Barbara’s talk with Batman on the way to GCPD is the period for the sentence.

[@AwesomeNinjaXD]

One thing I'd like to mention for each segment: 1. In Arkham Knight, the AK mentions Batman's "weak spot" specifically, thus eliminating a lot of the mystery element. It's not just someone who's watched Batman for years. It's someone who specifically knows how Batman's suit functions, and yet the game spends all this time making it seem like there's no one Batman can possibly think of. 2. The Harvey flashbacks have the added benefit of having a character we're already familiar with as part of the game. I assume most players will just think the game is building up to Two-Face, which it is btw, as a means of setting up the character arcs for the Arkham games in the series. Esp since the game is more about the "Day of Wrath" than it is actually about the Rat King. 3. The violence I feel can be a bit justified in the scene with the AK, since Batman does know Jason is dangerous, and he is also worrying about Scarecrow. You're 100% right about it being a shock to be a shock and not feeling like it was meant to be some endgame arc.

[@The_succ_of_87]

I heard a theory that Bruce always knew that Jason was the Knight but didn't want to accept that, after the Cloudburst fight Jason's mask may have actually been knocked off but Bruce still couldn't accept it so his mind blocked it out with the Joker hallucination, when going underground and Alfred says he still didn't find anything Bruce is DESPRITE to find anyone it could be aside from Jason as he can't come to terms that his son is alive and massive burning hatred towards him to the point where he'd endanger an entire city and kidnap Barbra just to hurt him. This is a personal thought, maybe when Harley was taking her revenge in Arkham City and Bruce is captured he might be having flashbacks to Jason and how Harley played a part in his death as well as being more dangerous than she was 2 years ago when Jason was captured (AA is in year 10 and Jason escaped that night so he was captured in year 9, AC is year 11), but when Harley is in the movie studios that is the first time we as the player are seeing them, when the building blows up in AC Bruce is worried about Robin and that gives off hints (to me) that this happened before. BUT THAT'S JUST A THEORY, A GAME THEORY.

[@noneedtoknow-yv2tu]

I think the biggest twist is Harvey Dent keeping the same suit for all those years.

[@NefariousSpecter]

I think it would have been better not to reveal the Arkham Knight's identity like Red X. Have Jason be another hallucination like Joker that would criticize Batman for his failure to protect him and have some henchmen turn into Jason. Then, at the end, for the reveal, have the characters question it, was it really Jason, or was Batman hallucinating again.

[@christopherjohn7442]

Joe being Joe Chill was the biggest twist for me, I’d figured Harvey must’ve been rat king about half way through given how many cutscenes were built around him and Bruce

[@timberwolfbrother]

I always gotta wonder if anybody else gets the same interpretation of Two-Face that I do after The Dark Knight Returns, where maybe Harvey Dent was never the pretty half but instead the scarred one, but nobody ever thinks to ask. After all, the heroes in Gotham wear black, and the burnt side is usually the side wearing the standard suit, where the pretty side wears the pristine white.

[@Tommedian]

One suspect I had was Shrike. The Rat King doesn’t show up after the prologue, so it seemed possible that he was already dead by the time you got to Blackgate

[@yougotmyquack8203]

Ngl the minute they showed the Harvey and Bruce flashbacks I knew it was him

[@e_knees8816]

You jumped to a conclusion and it happened to be right. He could have just been turned into Two-Face during the events of the game and you could come to that conclusion with the same evidence you had. The reason I thought it was him was because 9/10 Batman adaptations are The Long Halloween inspired and this one actually had Dent for once

[@Jstringfellow341]

it was extra rewarding because it now recontextualises how little we got of two faces in the main games: batman felt guilt and shame for creating him so he tried to shut him out of his mind as much as possible

[@gazellebeast3995]

KZbin yearly analytics came out and I’m a top .1% for clownpuncher for this year. I’ve made it in life now

[@Culex64]

I dont know a lot about Batman lore or the comics, so when I played Arkham Knight, way before Jason was introduced to my friends i told them "alright early predictions, Robin is the Arkham Knight because hes sick of Batmans shit about not trusting him enough." Boy was I so wrong and so right

[@IvoryTempestCandleOfStories]

And Joker’s line. “I know it’s what you’re thinking, but you know what? It actually isn’t me this time!” “Never play the same gag twice!” They knew exactly what they were doing here.

[@MoodKapProductions]

Moral of the story never change lead writers at the climax of a trilogy. Arkham Shadow being set when it is gives it an advantage. That and the fact that the game takes place over multiple days unlike any of the previous games so the plot actually has time to breathe.

[@Itsaluigi123]

I legitimately thought the Harvey flashbacks were just to lead up to the acid, so after the courtroom scene I started thinking it was someone else

[@bradleyheath9029]

I actually watched a theory video explaining that Batman actually did know the Arkham knight was Jason from the beginning but refused to believe it and wanted another suspect that’s why he wanted Alfred to look at a long series of suspects

[@bluesnake1713]

@@bradleyheath9029 And seeing that he's been seeing Joker all around in his head, might possibly known that Joker didn't intentionally killed him permanently. At least in the Arkham-verse. He must've known, but couldn't bring himself to believe it.

[@isabaig6665]

This twist was incredible. I thought since Harvey was just a flashback character he wouldn’t be it. I thought they would focus on him. But when it was related it was an earnest twist. Then the ship crashed and the other twist was so surprising because I thought he was the rat king and was shocked.

[@sinnerssandwich4140]

One other example of a good mystery is imo Persona 4. Without spoiling, there's a point in the game where you have an entire list of suspects and criteria for who the killer could be. The game trusts you to be smart enough to figure out who it is without having to beat you over the head with a crowbar with flashbacks and clunky character introductions. Also Troy Baker is such a good voice actor, even in Knight when he has lesser quality writing to work with, he delivers a fantastic performance as Jason (esp in those tapes). And Shadow really lets him flex both ends of the spectrum with Harvey and Two-Face. I was getting a little worked up in that final scene with him and Bruce.

[@MrWhchrd]

I could hear Troy's voice in the Rat King audio when you were with Harvey and Gordon at the beginning of the game. It was hard to hear but certain words the Rat King spoke I could hear and see Troy in the sound booth recording these lines. It was fun putting all the evidence together as the game went on with the Rat King hating Harvey just like his Two-Face personality. On a second playthrough I could almost hear the Two-Face voice with some of the lines when saving the hostages.

[@Pilot_Warden]

The twist actually got me. I literally had zero clue it was Harvey. I just thought the cutscenes with Harvey was just some extra backstory for Bruce. Too be honest the twist only worked (at least to me) because Harvey wasn’t in the game 60-70% of the time. I thought all the Two-Face hints were just hints for Harvey’s big turn sometime after the games story. But god damn, that courthouse scene was crazy. My jaw was open. As someone who likes being immersed in VR games. I was seriously not expecting to “counter” so I flayed my arm forward and the chemical hit Harvey. Because of that I couldn’t help but be in Bruce’s shoes and feel very sorry for Dent, really made me feel like I created Two-Face. That scene on the rooftop, GODDAMN was it heartfelt. No wonder Troy Baker is in every game, he really sells the idea of a Harvey who would go thru hell and back for a friend. The Joe Chill reveal really hit me as well. I can’t remember the last time I had 2 gut punches in one scene.

[@theyhateandrew8529]

Imagine if it was actually just the Ratcatcher all along. The main villain of long awaited next entry in the Arkham story is the Ratcatcher

[@nikosvarvaresos7123]

In defense of Arkham Knight - I think the only thing that somewhat justifies the whole ordeal with that reveal and the psychology behind it is that Batman has to juggle both villains and allies alike in one night, he had also the Joker infection which is implied to be the thing that made him so aggressive in the third game and therefore sloppy (kinda similar to Origins Batman in a way). By the way, his change in personality can be seen in his gadgets like the disruptor having the shape of a machine gun in the third game, his batmobile resembling an actual tank with lethal weapons loaded this time around, etc. I still think it was rather cheap as a reveal. Perhaps they should've focused more on his change in personality aspect so that us as the players controlling Batman could feel as confused even though it was rather obvious it was Jason all along - essentially what they achieved is to have Batman be confused for the whole ordeal, without the player getting that same feeling. I think that's where the Arkham Knight reveal kinda failed.

[@wolfiethefurrygamer1908]

I still have trouble accepting Harvey is The Rat King because that means for however long The Rat cult has been around between the end of Arkham Origins: Blackgate and this game, Dent was unknowingly The Rat King Also it's cool that the two heroes of Gotham have a villain Persona Dent (as much as I have trouble accepting): The Rat King Batman/Bruce: Matches Malone Both Criminals

[@buzzardwastaken5623]

I cant be the only one that read the thumbnail as ''Why he and he works doesn't'' 💀

[@RicJiang]

Yup u are the only one

[@primrose5031]

It also helps that Red Hood is an already existing character that anyone at all familiar with will probably have as a prime suspect (with those suspicions cemented with the Jason Todd flashbacks) while the Rat King is a new character for the game

[@Johnny_D03]

I have completed the game and don't think that Harvey Dent was really the Rat King. I think that it is Ra's al Ghul. The Rats sometimes say "we are legion" just like Ra's did in Arkham City. The whole burning Gotham down thing is also more of Ra's al Ghul's modus operandi.

[@ethandfrekirkpatrick8326]

I think the Jason flashbacks also plays into Bruce's guilt around risking the lives of his sidekicks. He had just lost Barbara and was afraid of losing Tim. So I wouldn't say they were just for the twist. But your point still stands

[@cookiecrisp6757]

The flashbacks also work because they don’t necessarily mean Harvey could be the rat king but that he would become two face sometime in this game

[@diegeticfridge9167]

Arkham knight does work.

[@DarthArachnious]

I recently replayed Vampyre. In that game, and others, the dialog trees are incomplete until you do something in the game or in a later chapters. Imagine the mystery of the Arkham Knight. But you realize the Knight knows way too much to be an outsider. You reopen Jason's case after talking to Nessa. Talia had wanted to return your son. This leads to Harley talking about Joker being holed up in the Asylum, torturing "some guy." Then, in a proper fight against Deadshot. He says he prepared for your fight by "Training one of yours."

[@gren8te319]

6:52 this would've lowkey been even better than another "this one batman villain was the secret identity of the "new" bad guy"" twist yet again. but it is pretty clever that the person with an evil secret 2nd self is ironically twoface.

[@GlitchingRobin]

I had full faith in this game because of the developers past games

[@pixel5949]

Also about flashbacks, during the whole game I thougt that they were set up for Two-Face, and because of that I never even thought about Harvey as the Rat King