Commander Mythbusters | The Command Zone 335 | Magic: The Gathering Commander

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Show Notes:
A very special episode in the tradition of our classic STATS shows. We've compiled and analyzed data from a bunch of Commander gameplay videos in order to answer some interesting questions like: How long is the average game? How many times, on average, do players cast their Commanders per game? How often do players get into combat? and more.
This is an episode that will challenge your preconceptions and (hopefully) help you look at the format with new eyes.
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[@calummcshane3211]

“Don’t run high CMC spells” “Don’t rely on casting your commander more than once if at all” “Maybe don’t run board wipes” The Command zone is slowly figuring out cEDH deck building I really enjoy your guys content, it’s really fun seeing the way you guys play and think about EDH. After listening to you two and other EDH content creators talk about how to build “better”, more powerful, decks I ordered some cards and started to tune one of my decks up. I put in more early 2-drop ramp, more draw and tutors to find those finishers and honed in on a small handful of engines/combos/interactions to win more reliably. I cut all the flashy high cost spells to flatten the curve so I could win faster. And it worked. My deck was stronger and won me more games! After playing with it for a while my playgroup called it my strongest deck and after some time there was a different feeling pulling it out. When I flew out the gate to a fast kill or played a chain of powerful effects nobody said “That was an awesome game!” or “Man, what a cool synergy!” it was just the end of another game that I won. I found myself playing that deck less and less until I didn’t want to play it at all anymore because it had become boring to me. Somewhere along the way the deck had lost it’s soul. I write this to those of you who might listen to this advice as the truth of deck-building. A more powerful deck is not always a more fun deck and what you enjoy about commander might not be the most ‘optimal’ way to play. I’m putting my 9cmc spells back in because hard casting that big stompy creature or that ultimatum is what I play for. So before you rebuild your decks and spend your money ordering new cards, think about what kind of magic you like to play, and what kind of magic your playgroup plays, because it might not be the kind of magic these guys play. That’s the greatest thing about EDH and magic, it can be whatever you want to make it.

[@anlize3422]

I agree with this. I have a deck I love that is a angel tribal/soldier token generator that is pretty high on CMC(all the named angels are high on the cmc scale) and it goes pretty much against everything it is said here. I take these tips are something of a guidelight to go from 7-8 to 9 and even 10 power level. And at that level, it's not for the fun of piloting the deck anymore.

[@Devynwithawhy]

I love casting aminatous augery

[@mintspears6714]

I love cedh, but I have not enjoyed casual as much since everyone started doing fast optimal gameplay vs big fun spells

[@Benjamintheartteacher]

I agree with this sentiment. I have my one powerful deck (Yarok) to play when I get the urge to play competitively, but for every other deck, I have to stop myself from ramping it up too much. My Nekusar deck, Scarab God deck, Arcades, and several others are all designed to stay at a power less than or equal to 7. In fact, I built Arcades with a budget of $60. So yeah, I don't want my decks to lose their souls. They are built to be fun, except Yarok. Yarok is built to win. Even then, he's more a casually competitive deck.

[@tgva8889]

The goal of my decks is not to win. My goal is for my deck to do the thing my deck does. When I focus on that, then I feel I can have a good time.

[@CptPatch]

When you say "Commander Mythbusters" I'm slightly disappointed that you don't have Grant Imahara as a guest host.

[@TARDIS915]

Him or Kyle Hill, since he worked on the spin-off

[@antoniopaolitto2181]

id love that!

[@MunchKING]

I'll be disappointed if there's not a giant explosion somewhere during the show. :p

[@patricksetzekorn1504]

i had so many hopes and dreams.. I Mean,, Addam Savage is a hughe nerd ^^

[@stellathelegend8799]

I agree with TARDIS915 Kyle hill was in the spinoff and he is their friend

[@jjvh500]

- I feel like the "CMDR Frequency" has an important counterpoint. What % of the game is a commander on the board? If my commander doesn't get removed, I am not recasting it - Like Jimmy said, I also really want to know the difference of CMDR Frequency where Partner commanders are looked at separate from single commanders.

[@Stormskip]

I was just about to ask that first question. How do we want to represent that? If the commander is on the board at the end of the game, should that be counted as an additional cast?

[@dennisyoung6122]

I'd like to know the color spread as well. Green commanders often get cast multiple times as they almost always have the mana, same for black with Cabal Coffers out. It wouldn't be unusual to see Lord Windgrace being cast for a 4th time if people are focused on killing it.

[@jcbillman]

definitely these Qs as my commander rarely dies (I mostly play Queen Marchesa) and there are just bigger threats

[@ancientswordrage]

How many turns you have the commander out/use it would be an interesting stat.

[@straya2412]

This is why I like running god's as commanders because I'm just there for the ability I don't need it to be a creature I'm running phenax mill and either way as long as I have a good high toughness card it's fine being tree of perdition or consuming aberration

[@martijnkoningsberger7628]

Very interesting episode, I wish I had the time to do stuff like this, there is so much we can learn from analysing data. Keep in mind though, you are checking games from content creators, if there is a boardwipe every other turn, it will be less entertaining to watch. There is a philosophy behind the disign of the decks. If there aren't any board wipes, your commander doesn't die as often and that might explain why the commander isn't recast very often.

[@zeroisnine]

Ehh, I don't think that really has much of an impact. They advise playing more boards than the data suggests. The reality is that there is a difference between wanting to play a board wipe and wanting a board wipe to happen. Board wipes are symmetrical and rarely benefit the player who played it the most .

[@MagicalHackerMTG]

Well, not always the case. For some content creators like myself, three of the opponents are unaffiliated with the channel, so there's no way I can force them to play what I want (even if I did consider board wipes to be bad or something)

[@jebrooks]

I fully agree, and have personally played games with board wipes almost every turn, for maybe 4 or 5 turns in a row. My commander gisa and geralf went from 4 mana to 12 mana at the end of it lol. Those kind of games absolutely happen.

[@erikohman2294]

Just about to write that. Also slow strategies like talrand counters or heavy stax is going to be happening less on youtube. I'm surprised they didnt mention this in passing in the beginning.

[@Narabedla4]

yeah bias is *very* important for those kinda data collections. notably, the bias of your own environment might also make this data less applicable.

[@darkokoroshi5883]

"don't tap out" ...90% of games i won, all other players tapped out before my turn

[@fernandocalero5964]

My play group just doesn't tap out unless they have nuked my board, graveyard, and I have few cards in hand. They are wary i might reanimate something nasty, cast Bolas's Citadel, or Living Death and win out of nowhere... They are soooo right to do so

[@somersetbassett4580]

Did they tap out bc they had no interaction, or did they have no interaction bc they tapped out? The answer should determine the lesson.

[@jemolk8945]

@@somersetbassett4580 If they have no interaction but don't tap out, there's still the bluff, and they might draw some interaction. But of course, it depends on the player, the group, and the deck. With at least one deck I have, even if I'm tapped out, you really can't assume you're safe to try and win due to me running a bunch of free counterspells. But it's still way better odds than if I'm not.

[@Zectzozda]

This. I reckon there's a near 100% connection to people tapping out on every turn for ineffectual plays (playing cards because they feel they "need" to do something on their turn, or "because why not") and players that bitch and complain when someone combos "out of nowhere". I'm a casual player, but far out, most combos are so fucking obvious, ESPECIALLY if you're playing with friends and KNOW their decks relatively well. MTG is a brain game; use it!

[@fernandocalero5964]

@@RuudAwakening YESS i know that feel. Funny thing is I don't play a "They must die first commander", like Narset, Prosh or Braids. I play Hogaak...

[@chazaqiel6304]

I was kinda curious about the frequency of casting Commanders, how often are they removed? If your commander never goes back to command zone, then you'd only cast once

[@bobobo7730]

That one mad lad with Fblthp EDH

[@alexanderforbes1452]

I was thinking about this, there are some commanders that don't feel threatening enough to remove, and then you have the gods from Theros who are indestructible and frequently not creatures so they're hard to take out and they just end up sticking around. Then there are some commanders you don't deploy on curve, that you just bring out once later in the game to win, those probably don't need to come out more than once.

[@paulgaither]

And then there is Oloro, Inalla,and Edgar Markov that are often never even cast. Edgar is cast sometimes, but many games there are better things to do with 6 mana. Inalla is also cast sometimes because Panharmonicon & Naban doubling triggers gets wild and benefits when Inalla is in play too without either of those in play {or about to be}, she stays in the CZ.

[@ewanwaddell2082]

I played a game today where i cast my golos for 13 mana. He’s 5 CMC

[@winstoningalls5491]

Episode starts at 4:49

[@PrimeEnLightenedShadow]

Ty!

[@egarran]

[@GM-rs2fv]

Glad you guys are getting multiple sponsors in an episode. Gotta pay the crew!

[@Rocjhead118]

When looking at the average # of turns, I think that you should also consider entertainment bias: these content creators probably shave off games that go too long or end abruptly. This could contribute to skewed results.

[@ancientswordrage]

That's a great point

[@zachary3367]

Not to mention how they otherwise curate and present the game. Maybe they hold back a card so things stay balanced or underutilize spells.

[@kenjames91680]

Their whole "study" has a horrible inherit bias. At the beginning They basically said "we want to test if these things we say are true. We are going to do by using our own content as data and other content producers that reflect our value system ie people that play at a level 6". when one does that they are most likely going to end up with a bias result. It's cherry picking the data. The sample size doesn't really matter at that point. It's like me saying I am going to prove how good Wayfarers bauble is in edh by doing a stastical analysis of the decks over at commander quarters.

[@alkhemia23]

@@kenjames91680 I mean Command Zone have always been one of the "us vs them" involving CEDH so no surprise they going to cherry pick stuff

[@akimyanni2468]

I have played with a lot of people and the relative power of a majority of players I see are pretty similar to most of these casual KZbin channels.

[@deathpunch2169]

Jimmy and Josh: **praise Ultra Pro products** Me, using KCM and Dragonshield sleeves, an Ultimate Guard deckbox and a Legion playmat: **nervous sweating**

[@MrMelkorbaggins]

this video clearly shows that we're playing a completely different game in my playgroup

[@GigaLordShinyMudkip1]

You guys are playing baby games like Go Fish! I am kidding as my playgroup is much more lax and like to have fun.

[@igniteaxiom]

me too. i cast at least 4 board wipes a game just by myself. also, all my decks win by attacking, although not necessarily aggro decks.

[@KostasTheDark]

No kidding. My playgroup is so controlly that I've had to do ridiculous things like playing a 15 mana Korvold (thank you Urborg and Cabal Coffers, you are black's national treasures). 1.4 commander casts per game? Nah, that can't be real.

[@GM-rs2fv]

@@igniteaxiom I feel bad for the people you are playing against lol. You should be able to win after a board wipe or two if properly planned. These sound like interminably long games. Also the fact your 4 board wipes resolve and no-one counter spells them is another whole issue. Sounds like you are playing U/W control against a bunch of Timmys.

[@taurelith4867]

@@GM-rs2fv the wipes may not have been countered by another player because they are answering threats that would hurt them as well. If im a control player and the other control player wipes the board im going to let him do it and just save the counterspell for something that threatens me instead of keeping me safe

[@jabberwockld4316]

The Boys:"U can't play that many big spells" Me: "Laughts in Golos's turn 4 30 mana turns"

[@ewanwaddell2082]

Lol same

[@NekoSauce]

Lol golos is banned now.

[@tylerkaune9070]

That thumbnail is choice. Command Zone, now with 100% more explosions!

[@Asmodeus555]

How many extra cards are drawn in a game? How many by the winning player? How many cards does the winning player draw relative to the rest of table? Or maybe how many cards they "see" is better? Like a graveyard deck doesn't need to draw its cards to utilize them, scrying to the bottom is useful, dig through time sees seven cards but "draws" 2 etc. How many spells cast by each player? How many does the winning players cast? Is it more than other players? Which metric is most comorbid with victory? As in which is most commonly associated with winning the game out of drawing the most cards, casting the most spells, spending the most mana, having the most mana in play etc? How many games end with two more players eliminated at once versus eliminating players one at a time? How many players eliminate other players? Does one player eliminate everyone more often than two or more players eliminate players? How highly correlated are certain cards with victory? Does the player who casts expropriate, cyclonic rift, teferi's protection, dead-eye navigator etc win the game? Do the cards considered powerhouses in the format lead to victory as often as we think? Probably need a larger sample size for these! But it is hard to collect data! Great episode!

[@ArchonSK]

Big blind spot : those statistics are from entertainment games , were as you said too(with Game Knights) , first priority is that is not boring(like veryone muligan with 7cards, not OP, not without lands). So people don't use boardwipes or mass bounce , Goldfish Commander games even have banned Cyclonic Rift , because it mostly only prolong the game with no value. Most of the channels don't want long games, because noone want to watch +3hours long games every week , yea maybe once a year it is ok , but not every week. Exception is MTG Muddstah, but he compress +2 hours games into 10-20min. videos Yes I am the boardwipe guy in my groups, but I play more +6CMC cards , and I want play more than one of those cards , so I need reset the boardstate so I can play those big mana cards

[@gysahlgemuse7208]

Ignoring Game Knights, ever other creator they mentioned plays to win. You may want to surpress this fact, but that's just you. Every time I watch something of them all these people wanna do is win hard and fast.

[@smp19026]

@@gysahlgemuse7208 Commander clash bans multiple cards, like rift, crypt, and soul ring. with multi-mana rocks not being used thats less ability to pay the commander tax. Tomer is always playing budget decks that he writes his articles about, that lowers the power level of his deck, and the game in general most weeks.

[@ehegger]

These are some of my favorite episodes from you guys. I personally track analytics on my edh decks for general stats-deck price, win percentage, commander tier, etc. Keep these coming! Love nerding-out on this stuff!!!

[@williambarden8593]

I feel like either the 18 or 19 turn game was the first one with Cassius, where him and Jimmy were the last ones and took about 5 turns for Cassius to draw a mountain.

[@JoeyKeaton]

While I agree that this may be the case for a lot of EDH groups, I feel like this ignores a glaring fact. I understand that all you really could work with is streamed/recorded games, but they take viewer experience into account. They specifically take care to have faster games because not many people would watch a recording of a really long commander game. I did enjoy the episode, but it feels heavily skewed to me.

[@GM-rs2fv]

I think their assumptions still hold...if you are running double digit high numbers of cmc spells you will get screwed a decent percentage of the time

[@B-Randall]

G M Unless you’re okay group runs high cmc. We like splash and flash. That shits more fun to us

[@rickeymariu1]

I like longer games with interactive game play. I like non-super streamlined decks. Some jank, some non-optomized cards make commader fun for me. What do you think?

[@deinemam7115]

the optimal power-level for me is one where someone with a small to medium sized collection can just grab some cards he owns, throw a deck together out of cards you have and like 3-4 you traded for, and be able to compete.

[@cacs2201]

You are not playing in their power level then From what you said you must have decks that go around a 3-5 in the power scale, so this entire video is kinda pointless... The game changes A LOT when you change the power level of the decks playing it

[@phobosrising9849]

My play group also enjoys casual play level, but as our skill level and card collections have grown, of course the power level has. I think we are generally a 6-8 group, with a couple of outlying decks. I built a Mikey deck that is banned from the group, I had no idea it was a competitive deck. Probably a 9...

[@cacs2201]

@@phobosrising9849 are you sure? 8 decks are already REALLY strong, and would destroy a 6 deck

[@pro711200]

@@phobosrising9849 You can't accidentally build a 9. Most cedh decks are a 9. People spend hundreds of hours playtesting an already powerful commander while having no budget (ABUR duals, time twister, wheel of fortune, etc) and reach a 9. Also an 8 is basically pseudo cedh. Fast wins, turn 5-6 or hard stax along with high interaction (8-15 counterspells, etc) and extremely low curves (2.5 average cmc and below and usually around 2.0). Usually either budgetless optimized noncedh commanders or budget cedh decks. I think most people severely overrate their deck's power level. If you think your deck is an 8 but I doesnt win by combo? Its probably a 6-7.

[@DanielBajo]

Hey @Commandzone, love the show and the info was great! Unfortunately, I think there is a huge Data point that I believe affects this "trend observation," I am of course talking about the fact that all these games were played and designed for youtube as a pleasant viewer experience. Which implies that when it comes to data points like # of turns, there is a great incentive to use/ build decks that will end games a but quicker. It is just more fun to see games moving a bit faster, than waiting for 20 minutes of turns before any action happens. In the real world I could see a lot more people playing slower early turns to get to use big explosive spells later on. It's like my friend back in CA used to say, what other format is going to allow me to play a 10cmc spell?! Anyways, love the content guys, keep it up!

[@mattkinslow4144]

Very good point, I also had a small issue with the 'number of times you cast your commander' stat. Again with these videos being made for viewing, they likely aren't going to run commanders that quickly go infinite and win off of one cast or playing combos that make them worth recasting to go for a win. Both skew the data in opposite ways but would definitely change the data and not well represented in this study.

[@faerie7dragon]

New Players: Commander is the format where we can cast big splashy spells! CZ Hosts: We don't do that here. *Not anymore.*

[@sethdayton8076]

I mean its pretty true atleast in my meta it's the statement "become the biggest threat or die" so if you aren't playing stuff every turn and if you curve isnt low enough you just done.

[@pikles3578]

Very strange that Commander Vs wasn't used. they have so many games to use for data. Most people would say their power level is generally between 6-8.

[@Jaketg93]

Maybe they didn't give permission? Only thing I can think of

[@Kuronosa]

Commander Vs also has many, many games where they use unusual rules.

[@randyzap6948]

They're also uncut games. Lots of time between actions/turns etc

[@GeorgBauer]

Kuronosa this. It is hard to pull facts about EDH from their games when they play weird twisted (fun!) variations.

[@TheVWarriors]

thats what i thought at first, but the different rules they use would skew the data. the existence of the point system alone would skew something like commander frequency.

[@ryanhansen9779]

Stats to consider: total cards drawn by winning player, total number of spells cast or resolved by the winner, number of lands in play at time of win. Thank you Command Zone for working so hard to bring content and joy to us viewers.

[@danielaserkoff7746]

Love the idea, please keep posting and making me happy during this tough time, and stay safe!

[@aqlanputra7361]

Growing up watching Mythbusters on Discovery, I already know that I'll love this episode. Jimmy is obviously the Adam Savage here, with JLK being Jamie Hyneman.

[@darbymckilkannoncaid3279]

except those two weren't friends and Josh and Jimmy are

[@aSurrealBox]

Hey guys, thanks for this! As someone who analyzes data for a living, it's cool to see. However, I think some of these statistics are a bit misleading. For example: % of games in which board wipes are cast does not take into account that those types of cards *do exist* in the library and are available for tutors. Challenging whether players should play Teferi's Protection or Heroic Intervention does not account for the selection bias-- keeping board wipes in the library when they otherwise aren't needed, and therefore not cast. I think it would be interesting to see a ratio of board wipes cast to board wipes drawn, to board wipes available (in the library), for example. Same true for counter-magic, planeswalkers (which tend to suck in EDH), recursion, ramp, etc.

[@corvidcognition]

I agree. There's a lot of hidden info here that may lead to false beliefs with their interpretation of the data. It's suuuper difficult to realise but the best way to analyse data proportion wise should be by normalising the data first. First instance, how different are the creatures present in decks that attack more (aka "combat player" decks)? Is the proportion of creature cards higher? Is the combined power or toughness of all creatures different between decks? How many combat players rely on evasion? Abilities, other combat tricks, etc.? How does it relate to win probability, or more simply, to the amount of damage dealt? Ultimately you need to run more experiments to test your theses. Meaning, if you gather all combat player style decks in a single pod, how does it affect the outcome? Spellslingers decks? Good stuff? There's enough to found an entire field of research in EDH datamining and EDH deckbuilding and playing. Really cool stuff. We need more scientists on this asap... that and Climate change.

[@Zectzozda]

The data size is too small to make any realistic determinations anyway. >> planeswalkers (which tend to suck in EDH) You're brave (see: correct) in saying this. Just don't say this in the EDH subreddit - they'll incorrectly roast you alive there!

[@Freyalise50]

This was my first thought. I tend to focus on exploding out to the win and run a little weaker on defense. Consequently, a lot of my decks have maybe 1 or 2 boardwipes. Further, what is the value of single target removal to stop a growing meta of value and combo decks? With combat decks seeing less play there would be less need to wipe everything.

[@B-Randall]

IMO, Planeswalkers are only bad in EDH bc they’re so versatile that they get instant targeted. It’s a free ability to have once per turn, and some of them have static abilities. They are bad in EDH because they’re so good.

[@aSurrealBox]

Ben Randall Planeswalkers are bad in EDH because they have to defend against 3x more attackers and only have 1x activation per turn cycle. Planeswalkers tend to be optimized to have singular effects that keep one opponent in check (bounce 1, destroy 1, put 1 creature in play, etc), not 3.

[@Calvin81007]

I am relatively new to the world of magic and I cannot thank you guy enough for all the great in depth stuff and game plan you guys do. I have learned a lot about the game plan, cards, tactics, and so much more. I even purchased my first commander deck which was primal genesis with Ghired, conclave exile at the head. Keep being awesome guys.

[@Ergilmaster]

50 minutes in and I must say that I love the enthusiasm! It has been a long time since both Jimmy and Josh have seemed this invested in the episode. I mean they are burning with passion right now!

[@grevedanko]

I want edh to be about 7+ mana spells.

[@KingYolos101]

And I want games to play over an hour or two.

[@ryansprenkle6356]

Yeah, that's a weird statistic too, because the amount played is theoretically dependent of the amount in the deck. Josh and Jimmy have explicitly stated they only run about 3 big spells, which means it's entirely possible they never draw one to be able to play it.

[@GM-rs2fv]

my counter spell says no. ppl act like you just have to accept board-wipes. counter spells or eerie interlude/ghostway/heroic intervention/ TP etc will negate wipes.

[@safertobeanonymous2224]

If we wanted efficiency we’d play standard! My favourite part of EDH is I get to play the shiny objects! 🤩

[@KingYolos101]

Tim Cummings Haha if we cared about winning we’d play competitively!

[@xTobsecretx]

I may have missed it, but these are also games that were produced for youtube channels, which are probably optimizing for a game length that goes well with the youtube algorithm/ is watchable. So these game length stats should probably be taken with a grain of salt, though this potential bias doesn't invalidate them. I also wanted to say I really like you guys turning around a little bit on the importance of blockers. So many of our games end with someone just having a few additional creatures because they played creatures with sorceries tacked onto them rather than sorceries. All in all, I'm really pleased with this episode - I think it has highlighted some things I was already thinking about more in my deck building (including more creatures instead of artifacts, enchantments or sorceries with the same abilities) and some that I definitely need to pay more attention to (mana curve and high-cmc spells).

[@nicholasbower17]

I feel like game length can vary a lot though. Like Play to Win can fit 3 games in 20 minutes, Mudstah 1 in 15 or so, Game Knights is one in...1 and a half hours?

[@xTobsecretx]

@@nicholasbower17 Yes for sure! What I'm saying is that ultra-short and ultra-long games will likely be less popular, no matter the amount of time the game is packaged in by the content creator. Very few people will be excited by watching a 50 - turn grind-fest, and equally, a turn-2 combo kill will not be that exciting to watch. Also Play to Win wasn't included, was it? They're a CEDH channel.

[@Kattywagon29]

This episode is very interesting and definitely warrants more study. There are lots of factors to consider for each question. I think the best take away that I got from this video reinforced something that I have come to understand more and more over the years and that is how important it is to know what your deck is trying to do. Just as important is knowing what will shut your deck down. Having this information will naturally cause you to build your deck better. You'll do stuff like play less high mana cards or run more low cost ramp and to play less tap lands...etc. For instance, I don't fear board wipes in my Kestia deck. It's high value and I assume people will wipe me, so it's built to recover. The same is true for my Edgar Markhov and Breya decks. My Meren deck doesn't fear wipes, but I need to protect my graveyard and I know that people gun for my Kaalia and for my Atraxa so I must protect them. Learning more about my decks helped me to better threat asses my opponents and has taught me to play more efficient and dual purpose cards so that I can be more reactive and reflexive either offensively or defensively.

[@AffinityForCommander]

Thank you for using our games as part of your data! That was some really interesting information! 😄

[@connorvietzke7934]

I've actually taken eternal witness out of a few decks in favor of regrowth and been burnt because of it. Nothings worse than staring at your green sun zenith and wishing you left eternal witness in your deck.

[@phantomlimb520]

Run both

[@connorvietzke7934]

@@phantomlimb520 Oh I slammed it right back in. It has no +1/+1 counter synergy in my Vorel deck, but having that option to tutor for it when I need is huge.

[@darbymckilkannoncaid3279]

I appreciate that you guys are trying to support these assertions with data, but that is such a small data set that I really question the value of trotting out these numbers

[@zenia7267]

Look at it as a tendency. From a data science view their are a number of "not so right" assumptions (dont wanna say wrong) and missing perspectives. But for something as difficult to collect large amounts of data off as EDH this sure shows a tendency everyone can work with and learn from it. But don't do the mistake and generalize your play group style just because their conclusions dont fit your personal experience

[@darbymckilkannoncaid3279]

@@zenia7267 nowhere in my above comment did I suggest that this has anything to do with how the data comports with anecdotal evidence from my own games. I'm saying that we can't actually know the accuracy of these conclusions when they emerge from such a small data set--and not to mention a data set which features quite a few repeat players whose individual playstyles will have a disproportionate impact on the data.

[@GM-rs2fv]

@@zenia7267 n>30 so it may not be good but it's statistically legit for basic assumptions. Also one commander game =4 players so that is something to take into account.

[@abnormallynormal8823]

@@GM-rs2fv the number of players is irrelevant to the data set, as long as the game always has the same number of players, the number of games played is what’s relevant. You need a minimum of 100 games (all with separate players and decks) to have any sort of statistical relevance. This data is both not statistically relevant, but it’s also squeed by having 2 players always being the same person, as well as having repeat guests. It’s a cool video, but the data is meaningless

[@Jaketg93]

This one might be hard to pinpoint, but the way a player takes over the game. And I'm not necessarily saying the person who wins the game (though that will be this person a majority of the time) but rather the person who most identifiably makes the game reach an end-game scenario, and how they do it.

[@-RTC-]

Love this episode and the discussions you guys always have on your show. Thanks for everything!

[@jonandghorta]

As a player who stopped playing combo/control and now kills people through combat, this data is very surprising on both ends.

[@GodlyDrmmrProductions]

The Board Wipe Breakdown was hilarious to me. I actually played a 3 player Commander game like 2 days ago, and I thought I was losing my mind. By turn 6, the whole battlefield had been wiped multiple times in a single rotation, and at the end of the game we counted how many wipes had been cast. Between three people, we ended up casting 7 board wipes in a 10-turn game. And the best part is, each wipe was a unique card; no duplicates! Of course I understand these are general statistics, I just wanted to describe a scenario to emphasize the aweomeness of how widely varied some of these individual metas are, and how unique each play group will be from one another. Very interesting statistics being shown here. Very much looking forward to seeing some more breakdowns like this! (The average damage per attack really piqued my interest).

[@AnonYmous-mc5zx]

Main issue is that boardwipes are less frequent then the numbers let on, inflated by the outlier of [dude from podcast] playing his 33 boardwipe Zurgo Helmsmasher deck every other week.

[@nathanfosberg5857]

Great Episode! As far as number of board wipes per game for my play group, we have two or three people who have what we call "board wipe tribal" decks. The number board wipes that get played is each game more like 4-5 on average. There have been multiple games where board wipes were cast two turns in a row cause the first one didn't "kill everything" the first time.

[@ninomachadoelpropio9350]

Very interesting work. I hope you make more videos like this! I am relative new at commander and I'm fascinated with this insights.

[@nicjohnson949]

I didn't know I needed a command zone cover immigant song until now!

[@adamparsons1216]

It was soooooooo goooooooood!!!!

[@NatNatNutmeg]

Command zone: play our sweet preview card also command zone at 15:24: don't play our preview card

[@cacs2201]

Pretty sure they bashed this card from the start

[@TheMMC100]

I'm new to watching the podcast episodes from these guys, but this is the most informative analysis of MTG I've ever heard!

[@cheapskateotaku7123]

Thank you so much Jimmy & Josh for doing this episode. I'm fairly new to commander and I was having a really hard time following the pace of the game. Like when should I attack or how many board wipe I need to stay alive and my commander value that it will give me after it got remove. You have address this game in ways that have help me as a new player to understand the game better and how many kind of card I will need to run for my deck build to keep up. Thank you so much, and keep up with the great work ^_^

[@smoon1971]

It would be nice to know the number of turns a commander stays on the battlefield once cast.

[@henez7621]

For the 7+ cmc spells, couldn’t the number be low because whoever casts that spell wins the game very quickly. I know when I am building my decks, any spells that are that expensive need to be threatening to win the game very quickly.

[@jeanmarais337]

the real reason you see few 7+cmc spells cast is because you seldom draw them because there are few in your deck.

[@erikohman2294]

Also, I'd say a disproportionate ammount of people on youtube care about how entertaining things are. Having a dead card in your hand for that one game matters more if you care to entertain people. Additionaly, entertainment value might shrink the pool of expensive cards you would want to play.

[@williamschaefer1822]

58:37 "and you don't play a lot of artifacts maybe". Vandalblast: "Destroy target(each) artifact you don't control"

[@Nick-pz5vl]

The simultaneous page throw at 7:06 is flawless.

[@TheMaxAttacks14]

My first ever commander game in 2019 ended in 3 turns after someone drew their library, cast Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, and +1. Still don’t know why I kept going but here I am. Edit: I stupidly typed 2018 when War of the Spark was released in May 2019, really bad typo

[@boredcryptek5513]

Sounds like you were in a higher powered game. Have you since found one more about where you want to play?

[@TheMaxAttacks14]

Steven Smith yeah I was invited to my friends playgroup and accidentally got out with cEDH players, since then I’ve found noobs like myself

[@voidprism_studios666]

How did he draw his library within turn 3?

[@Inzaki13]

@@voidprism_studios666 probably using demonic consultation

[@krvys7226]

Usually CEDH players are better about reading the room then that, or at least ask to make sure people don't care about power level. Sorry that happened to you And if I had to guess, it was consultation or dramatic sceptre thrasios.

[@andrewgraham7977]

Do you think the data is skewed towards deck building that is good for content creation?

[@andrewlaverghetta715]

I always point out that Commander Clash has a lot of house bans including Sol Ring. It's also interesting that they play on mtgo which may lead to different play patterns or mistakes than if they were playing in paper. As well, many of these content creators are playing decks they just made up and never play again...and have otherwise never played before, while often times people play with decks they've played at least 5 times before, depending on how many decks they have.

[@igniteaxiom]

no attacking and no board wipes? something fishy is going on for sure? how are people winning?

[@corvidcognition]

Great episode. It will fuel lots of discussion and analysis in self conscious playgroups. These myths probably mean we need to keep a closer eye on our own games's metadata. Sounds like you're converging with EdhrecCast. They are always asking the right questions because the have access to the data and they actually analyse it.

[@peterarete9685]

Loving the stats. More stats I want: - How often/many cheat spells were cast on average? - How does the winner compare to the others- if an average player casts .6 +7cmc spells, what about the guy who wins? Is he the one casting all of them? Because that would skew the data. - Casting of Commanders, how does that line up with color? Do we see skew based on the deck color? - If investing in casting the boardwipe is detrimental, (and yet, still necessary to stop someone from winning), could you do another political episode on how to get other players to cast the board wipe when you want, to knock down the early lead player, to delay board wide actions when it suits you, etc... - Stats around counter-spells- how often are the played, but more importantly, how often do they keep you from losing, and/or, lock in the win? Any stat that can approach how many cs do we actually need? Having more cs than we need can let a player make political moves- but poor political moves makes more counter-spells necessary.

[@faviann]

I feel that the second point really needs more unpacking/analysis. Since the number is so low, it has such a huge potential for the data to be skewed

[@dunemayberger2210]

For the 7+ CMC stat, is that including spells with X in the cost and where the total cost is 7+?

[@danielpaxton3560]

I know there wasn’t enough time to see if early damage was as impactful as damage later in the game. But as a combat player myself I’d love to see the statistics on early damage and it’s effect on the game. Because with early damage I make it easier to win, but is it worth the trade of having a target on my back?

[@drbastion6951]

I built a karador deck and e wit is staying in no matter what cuz its the only way i can recur my non creature spells

[@antoniovalera5760]

I enjoyed this episode very much. I think you guys are in a unique position to create a form for the community that we can fill after our commander games and submit for the data to be compiled for everyone's benefit. I would be happy to fill it in after every of my games.

[@oshimacmg]

I absolutely loved this episode! I think about this stuff a lot and was pretty dead on for most of these figures but the discussion about how these numbers should be used when building a deck is so useful! Also just knowing the stats instead of just guessing is really cool.

[@rickeymariu1]

I want commander to be what it started out as, not what it's becoming.

[@GM-rs2fv]

sounds like you need to have a discussion with your playgroup or find a new one. Why do you care what other people not in your playgroup are doing?

[@mogryking3830]

Maybe try a "custom banlist" for your playgroup to keep the power level lower.

[@GM-rs2fv]

@Ham Wich I respect the sentiment but we can't go back to a time before the internet and edh rec. Maybe start out your edh night with a fun/janky/home-brewed commander game at a lower power level before everyone plays their net-decks. There are 20,000+ cards in commander... outside of maybe five color decks you can build a pretty cheap competitive deck (under $100). Some of my favorite decks are my earlier cheaper more tricky ones I have only minimally upgraded. Winning shouldn't be the focus compared to having fun. And a counterspell or two is cheap and will stop even the best spells.

[@abnormallynormal8823]

@Ham Wich we have a homebrew or prebuilt only rule in my pod. No just copying a deck from the internet and ordering it. You have to have at least a tiny bit of creativity. We also only use EDH rec to find card archetypes, not pure synergistic combo hell

[@zoopdoop_games]

I've had a game with my Golos deck where he costed 15 and I was still casting him lolz. The benefit is he always pays back half his tax

[@fernandocalero5964]

Omg i had a 1v1 game against golos where i was playing queen marchesa "mean" control. I kefpt killing Golos time after time after time until my opponent cast Golos for 20 mana, then activated it's ability and hit 2 eldrazi. Man... that commander is so tough to beat

[@brandonbentz1404]

Or all of it if you grab a bounce and bounce a land for turn next turn

[@willstocker153]

How does he pay back half his tax? He only gets you one land so that only makes sense for the first instance of commander tax. Not to mention the land comes into play tapped

[@MrBaeQuinn]

@@willstocker153 I think that's the bit; tax is 2, he gives you one land. If he dies and comes back every turn and you always have a land in your hand, you drop your land and golos etb found you the other.

[@Zhesmeon]

Last time I played Ghired for 15...my group has a board wipe heavy meta. That's probably why our games tend to be way longer than 11 turns :D I also think that the way your commander works and benefits your strategy has a high impact on how often your cast it. You would cast Kathril for times if you play voltron and now you got your Hexproof and Indestructible creatures into your graveyard

[@JervisGermane]

The 3 biggest things I took away from this are: 1) You will naturally draw through between 1/6 and 1/5 of your deck, excluding mass draw. So if there's an effect you HAVE to have, you need 5-6 cards in your deck that do it (including tutors for it). 2) Once you get to about turn 4, you should be preparing for a board wipe. You should hold up a card or two that will make you the first to recover when the inevitable 1 in the game hits. 3) You probably need 3-4 decoy effects in every deck. I've always said any combo deck needs a Big Monster on a Chain© for a backup and to draw removal (Colorless Eldrazi titans are great for that). Every deck needs a few of those to draw out the removal and board wipes so your opponents won't be able to stop your *real* win condition when you play it.

[@_somerandomguyontheinternet_]

Their opening song... wasn’t... bad??? *This truly is the episode of unexpected surprises.*

[@flamingwaffle55]

Oh I’m so ready for this video 😂❤️

[@MobiusCoin]

Interestingly, I feel like I cast my Rhys, the Redeemed and The Ur Dragon about the same amount of times. It's not worth casting Rhys for 3 mana, you can be doing much better things for 3. So it's interesting how a 1 drop commander and a 9 drop commander gets cast a comparable amount of times per game lol.

[@GM-rs2fv]

Although it's a lot to ask I would have liked them to do a graph of commander cmc vs number of times cast

[@Volkbrecht]

@@GM-rs2fv They did that. At 36:00 .

[@Rh3ttD4v1s]

A suggestion, on the Lifelinker app, y’all could add a turn tracker. The center points to who’s turn it is, and when the player passes, the press the button to move the line. It could also track what turn you’re on.

[@SilverSpectre266]

I still remember that one Game Knights episode that had 3 whole games in it and I think the whole episode was still under an hour cause the games were going so quick lol

[@kal-el-fornia2479]

A very conspicuous absence of Commander Vs.

[@graysonchristian2668]

Commander vs plays with weird rules, often suboptimal decks, and don’t edit their games for great study. It makes sense that they wouldn’t be used

[@irishrunner27]

they didnt want to calculate 'villainous wealths cast per game' XD

[@andrewlaverghetta715]

@@graysonchristian2668 Its interesting that you mention suboptimal decks, when Commander Clash is the definition of suboptimal decks, having most notably Sol Ring house banned, bad decisions done for fun in the games, and mostly just a place where it seems like they experiment. Often Tomer plays his budget decks against whatever stuff everybody else is playing, like Crim just making the game go long almost on purpose, lol.

[@igniteaxiom]

if they did attacks per game would go way up.

[@PhazonOmega]

Their games emphasize number of Commander casts, and helped me to realize how few times you actually cast your commander.

[@happybrain2674]

Attack based Players: "LETS MUG HIM!!!!"

[@orzhovmdw]

Viva la Dirt!!

[@brandonstracener5076]

I think seeing median values over average values is helpful, and it's helpful as well to see the percentages for each whole number. I appreciated the bar chart on number of turns, but I don't recall seeing something similar for number of times the commander was played or board wipes, etc.

[@sebastianrauskolb8745]

Recommendation: Capture this data in a sortable, filterable tabular format in the future (like Excel or Google Sheets). In other words, instead of one of the members of your team watching games and tallying the number of board wipes, turn length, etc. across those games have them enter each game as a line in a table with the columns being each of the categories that you want data points on. I mention this because you have said a number of times in this episode "I wish that we could compare X to Y". Having all of the data captured in a table would let you do exactly that. If you are diligent with this then you can even save the information for later and gather additional data points or see how these data points change in the future. You could consider adding a source column and adding a link to the specific KZbin video for example, or a date video posted column.

[@gysahlgemuse7208]

"People don't cast expensive stuff so you should not build in those cards" - this mentality only fans the flame to make everything faster and less EDH. This should be a format about group dynamics and funsies you can't do in other formats. With these guys help this format is becoming as degenerate and unfulfilling as literally every other format there is. Thanks!

[@tonehunter8755]

My meta plays loads of expensive commanders and cards. We don't play infinite combos as a rule and tend to stay away from constant plays of expropriate which seem to be in every one of JLK's decks

[@SkyDiving_StormTrooper]

Guy... why is it that no matter how high your subscriber count gets, no matter how much your affiliate links get used in increasing amounts, no matter how many more patrons you get, you still never put out more than a single game play episode a month...? You said before funding was your primary limiting factor but that has obviously been growing but your content hasn't. We notice this... You put out only the one video of game play and only to showcase precon stuff or some other merch. This is fine but we never get you play your homebrew decks... You mention how great card kingdom is to their customers by telling us how an owner is personally packing cards and how they much they care about those who bring them success but why don't you guys do that for your people, us? You absolutely KNOW we all want more game videos and to see your actual decks instead of just precon type stuff. You know... You say funding is why you can't do it but your funding has increased a lot since then but your content is just the same as it always has been... You STILL haven't ever to Extra Turns... If Loading Ready Run can do a weekly commander game you guys totally could too... Do it the way they do if it helps. It does not have to be extravagant. Ppl would love it if it was just a downward facing cam showing the battlefield if it meant more games and seeing your guys' actual decks...We keep waiting and waiting and it keeps becoming ever more clear you never intend to grow... If this is all you are ever going to do will you just tell us that so we can move on... Or better yet actually expand and grow... If you don't ppl will eventually leave anyway... You likely don't believe it but it has happened before. Ignoring your fans and remaining static has brought countless channels. Josh, Jimmy, come on guys... This sucks. I don't want to see this awesome channel just stay the same old thing until everyone gets bored of it and moves on and your channel dies. Ppl come here for game knights. You don't have to produce content on that level but why not just record some games between you and your local friends... There doesn't have to always be an invited heavy hitter guest. I know you will likely just file this comment away in the "trash to be ignored and forgotten" folder like you obviously have with all the crop tons of others like this I have seen over the years here if you read it at all but we wish you wouldn't. And this isn't an angry post. This comes from genuine love of the content and a true fan. It really sucks to have to say this at all and that is real truth guys. But you keep ignoring us. Why? You subs are up, you have multiple sponsors, and more and more patrons. The fan base and desire for more game play content is there... But you ignore us... You said you are working on it and the intention is there yet nothing ever comes from it. You grow in revenue and fans yet never pay any of that back into growing game knights or extra turns. That is basically just stringing everyone along and that is no fair to those of us who literally create your success and make this awesome thing you got going on here possible at all. It really socks to know you guys know most of us want to see more of this content and that you could be doing way more to do it if you wanted but purposely don't. To know point blank you regard us that little. It can't mean anything else when it us this many ppl being ignored and it being so obvious you are doing better than ever yet your content has not reflected that at all in either quantity or quality. We know you can do more and purposely don't. Eventually that will cause something to break. A business endeavor that ignores the wishes of its customer base and fails to adapt and grow as times change will eventually go under. That is business 101. Why do we mean so little? You got really successful and now the voices of those who put your there go unheard. If that doesn't bother you even a little and doesn't cause you to consider putting REAL effort into delivering this then you all the way don't deserve what you have. And that is just the sad and inevitable truth.

[@danacoleman4007]

looks like they ignored you. what a surprise. 😮

[@SkyDiving_StormTrooper]

@@danacoleman4007 No not at all. They have been dropping a lot of Extra Turns vids along side their regular Game Knights videos since I posted this comment. Super happy with what they were able to do with the new sponsors. Thanks Game Knights. You guys turned that one right around.

[@DiamondDave4243]

The 7 CMC thing is interesting. I've found that over time I have cut as many of those spells in favor of lower CMC spells. It's better to be able to cast and spell and leave mana up for interaction or multiple spells that synergize than one powerful spell.

[@ChristopherDennis89]

To add to the commander cast count, if it is central make sure you build it with interaction and protection. As for the E.Wit and Reclamation Sage debate, the reason why they are loved and utilized a lot is because in green (either mono or multi) creature-based synergies since they are creatures they are easier to tutor for or get out in those kinds of decks. The extra body is also utilized in going wide strategies with cards like Selvala, Radha, Gaea’s Cradle, etc.,

[@DummyUrD]

I am sorry Jimmy and Josh but this is probably one of your weakest episodes I have seen thus far. Not because of the content you touch here but because of your conclusion and lessons you take out of them. Most of your conclusions could very well be a fallacy. As an example, you say that there are not many board wipes played in a game so you can limit the amount of protection you play and that you probably don't need to be as afraid of them as you were in the past. But in a game that "only" lasts 8-12 turns (sadly you didn't track how many cards were seen in a game on avg.) you only see so much of your deck and if you play a lot of permanents in your deck they can really blow you out, in addition, they usually can also be used in non-boardwipe situations so they are not dead cards. So rather than saying, run less of the safe-net cards it would make sense to say, be more liberal in their use. Another example would be your statement on 7+ CMC spells. They are not often seen thus you should run them even less. But the fact that people are not running a lot of them (you yourself say you cut them more and more) can be very well the main reason that they are so rarely seen. There are probably other reasons you should be running them rarely but not seeing many of them surely is not one of them.

[@gysahlgemuse7208]

Not to mention that the meta can change depending on other peoples greed and impatience. If you settle on "On average I don't have to cast my commander that much, so I should exploit that fact" you deserve to get wrecked. Same with board wipes and low cost spells. If you show your group how authistic you can get, you should be punished for that until EDH becomes EDH again.

[@jacobjensen7704]

They did mention this isn't meant to be taken as gospel. Just maybe some good ideas that, like they said, are "hinted" at in this data sample.

[@pillewasser]

Nice work guys! Thanks a lot. I’m curious about the deathrate through commander damage.

[@CapitalZ100]

Really enjoyed this episode. My only Commander deck is Muldrotha graveyard, I always assumed my one per game cast was because of the high CMC. It's good to see that most other people share my pain.

[@liquidflairentertainment9059]

Loved watching this episode as an avid commander player who plays both CEDH and Casual but tuned decks. I attack a lot more than the averages that were stated and cast my commander a lot more as well but it is good to see where the averages fall. The attack aspect would be because people don't want to make enemies so they hold back a lot of attacks while others just aggro in. Thanks for the episode, I truly enjoyed it. Cheers!

[@lucassantiagodominguez]

Nice episode guys!! BTW, You've mentioned Craig a lot, that reminds me that I would like to see him again on GK (or Extra turns).

[@sauce_servitor3889]

Love all the awesome content you guys are making! Keep it up!

[@shaunboyce6957]

I hope that WOtC really takes some of these points into consideration for deck building for Commander precons. If the "Fury" cards are totally unfeasible based on best case scenario, the card essentially was designed to fail from the start. Thank you for taking the time to look into this.

[@sertaki]

Starts video -> gets a lightning bolt channeled straight into ears That was a pretty neat version of Immigrant Song :D

[@rosspenney5158]

I tend to lead with my commander as a lightning rod for counterspells and removal. If it bites it immediately, I still have access to it for 2 extra mana and I preserve the card advantage of the spells in my hand that are just gone FOREVER if they get dealt with. I find this is the best strat for giving your opponents limited information and controlling the game through card advantage.

[@IceMetalPunk]

As soon as you asked us to guess the average length of a game, I was suddenly reminded of the longest Commander game I ever played. There were four of us, and two were knocked out around that average 10-15 turn point. My friend was playing a Memnarch "steal all your things" deck, so every time I had something that could answer his shenanigans, he'd just take it. But it wasn't very aggro, so it just dragged out. Literally several hours after the two other players were done, it was around 2AM and we were still going. I was using a deck I'd borrowed from one of the other players, so he couldn't leave until the game ended. He was begging me to just concede, that there was no way I could win and it was late and he wanted his cards back. I refused, because although I'm not very competitive, I will always finish a game, I don't like just quitting. Long story short, it was about 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning when I somehow managed to win :D I don't even remember how I did it, but I did. Considering we'd started playing around 10PM....yeah. Longest. Game. Ever. But so worth it.

[@HigherMammal]

The average commander family and their 10.29 turns.

[@TheCommanderGuys]

Hey guys, thanks for the shout out! The video was great, and hopefully our content was of use with your analysis!

[@ronnybingham9007]

One thing I wonder about regarding the 6+ CMC spells per game. I think, in general, a fair number of people playing on KZbin videos are probably playing pretty optimized decks, and because of that, their curves have gotten lower in general. I know in my play group, we probably go over both the 2.38 average of 6+ CMC spells, as well as probably the 10.29 turns. Of course, a bunch of us really like battleship EDH, which probably leads to going over on both. I think it's one of those things that might be a bit meta dependent overall.

[@brunt1984]

This gives me a lot to think about my current decks and any I build from now on.

[@andrewlaverghetta715]

Re: attacks, I've had some really interesting games where everybody is basically in a standoff with removal, counters, and board wipes. Then the decks that I have that actually attack to win, I have to build up a critical mass. For example, Brudiclad tries to hold off until later to swing with awesome tokens. Then Izoni is basically a graveyard aristocrats deck, but it usually wins with something like a craterhoof or beastmaster ascension.

[@jameskelly2559]

Very interesting as ever, and well presented material. Thanks fellas. That said, I don’t feel it is very representative of my edh experience over the last year. Perhaps the hundred games isn’t a big enough sample or the decks were very quick in mana ramp etc. Games I have been involved in definitely go longer, and high mana cost spells are more often played. God for thought though.

[@heretik82]

I started taking a couple of notes for myself, but decided to share them here. Disclaimer: these were made quickly and i'm not a native English speaker. *Sample* - sources: Game Knight, MTG Muddstah, Commander Clash, The Commander Guys, Affinity for Commander - about 50x 4-player games - test sample power level: 6-8 *Game length* - average game length: 10.29 turns - most likely game length: 9 turns (21%) - most games end between 8-12 turns (70%) Some conclusion that we being drawn: - play more low-cmc ramp (Arcane Signet, Guild signets), less high-cmc ramp (Chromatic Orrery, Guilded Lotus) *Big splashy spells* (7+ cmc; Expropriate, Insurrection) - avg. total per game 2.38 - avg. total per player per game: 0.6 - in 19% of games, no player cast a 7+ cmc spell Some conclusion that were being drawn: - don't play as many in your deck; maybe 3-4 total in your deck - make sure these spell are impactful; try to prevent adding spells that only fit very specific scenarios *Commander cast frequency* - avg. times cast per game: 1.4 - avg. times cast 2 cmc cmdr: 1.86 - avg. times cast 3-4 cmc cmdr: 1.47 - avg. times cast 5-6 cmc cmdr: 1.30 - avg. times cast 7+ cmc cmdr: 0.77 - 33% of games 7+ cmc cmdr wasn't played at all Some conclusion that were being drawn: - with high-cmc Commanders, don't rely on them as much as you would with lower cmc *Combat & attacks* - avg. attacks per player per game: 2.86 - avg. attacks per combat* player per game: 5.25 - < 3 attacks by the combat* player: 0 Some conclusion that were being drawn: - even having some blockers can deterr players from attacking you pretty easily - players prefer attacking an opponent without blockers over an opponent with a new blockers * "Combat player" was defined by whoever attacked the most in each game *Board Wipe frequency* - avg. wipes** per game: 1.32 - 23% of games no board wipe was cast ** wrath-effects, but also overloaded Vandalblasts or Damage based spells that didn't even hit all created were counted

[@patrickmchugh4616]

I can most succinctly sum up the "How will this affect deck building" segments with a simple phrase: better spells that cost less are almost always the right answer. If cEDH is the model for how best to build a deck in the most competitive environment, then a 6-8 power level deck is most likely just good, synergistic cards that are efficient and low-costed. I think the only thing that separates an 8/10 deck from a cEDH 10/10 deck is the choice to run brutally fast combos or prohibitive stax pieces.

[@danacoleman4007]

there's a ton of incredibly useful information in this video! thanks you guys!

[@chrismarlow9585]

I love stats and am excited to see you returning to this. With this stuff it's very important to not jump to conclusions too quickly, e.g. "don't use high CMC spells" because not many were played in a game. However, Jimmy makes the point for board clears "if you think about it, how many are actually getting drawn in a game". I thought that exact same thing for 7+ CMC spells. Anyway, here are some ideas for stats to get: 1) What percentage (turns) of the game were commanders on the field, from the point the person could have cast it (they hit the mana required). Broken down into two categories: commanders that need to be in play for the deck to function, commanders that are not essential for the deck. 2) The mana reached by the winning player on the turn they win. 3) The number of spells cast + mana used by the winning player over the course of the game. 4) What percentage of damage to life is being dealt per turn (e.g. if 140 damage is dealt in a game then if 14 damage is dealt on turn 6 of the table that's 10% turn 6). Split the results by the number of total turns the games have. It will be interesting to see if the different length games have the same shape of the damage dealt over the turns as well as what that shape looks like. 5) How many cards get drawn by the winning player and the person who comes second, broken down by the number of turns the game was. 6) What percentage of attacks are blocked. Also, what percentage of attacks that could be blocked are actually blocked. (Both cases ignore deals made between players) That's probably enough from me. Hope you include them :)

[@jax6642]

Loving all these bonus episodes!

[@siener]

So I've got data points both ways regarding expensive spells: Until recently, every deck I've ever built myself from scratch (i.e. excluding modified precons) had green in it and I always use tons of ramp. I have a Nikya of the Old Ways deck that's just crazy. You killed my 20/20 hydra? No problem, I still have enough open mana to cast Pathrazer of Ulamog - with haste thanks to the Anger in my yard. I then decided to try something different, so I built a Boros deck. My intuition for what the mana curve should look like was just waaaaaay off because I was so used to having access to all the green ramp. It did not go well.

[@tatz717]

Love the channel, always worth a watch even though episodes tend to be an hour+. Pulling stats like this sounds like a perfect crowd sourcing opportunity. Think of how many subscribers this channel has, give 100 people a form, and have each watch 10 online games, that's 1000 episodes. You could easily double or triple that.

[@Isheian]

I tend to cast my commanders 3-5 times a game, but I’ve also taught my group the value of removal. Mostly. I must be weird. I run Ur dragon, zada, najeela, etc etc... Deathtouch holds back armies. Very true! I’ve also seen (early game) solemn simulacrum deter attacks, people don’t want to give you the card. I love the stats episodes. Really cool to see! My pod is weird and I have no one to blame but myself it seems! I’m so proud!

[@54m0h7]

Great seeing so many stats on the games. I will be considering these for my deck building for sure! One thing I was thinking, it'd be nice to have a sudo-official was to grade your deck (1-10), and then you can say it when you're sitting down with a group, and everyone would know if one person is way under/over classing the rest. Anyway, Here's a few questions I thought of: How many spells were countered? How many games won by alternate win cons? (Not opponents life totals hitting zero or poison counters.) How many games ended with an infinite combo?

[@Pilt117]

Great video! Really looking forward to that upcoming stats video. I love stuff like that

[@vemynal]

Gonna call observation bias on the boardwipes part. Josh and Jimmy have said themselves that matches that take to long or are to short just aren't good gameplay for the Game Knights videos. We can assume that the samples pulled from also follow this edict as they're putting out this content for viewing pleasure. Thus you don't want a bunch of decks loaded with boardwipes that'll delay the game a lot which might be found more in a home setting.

[@NathanJHaug]

It would be interesting to see data on spot removal and how often it is used