Complementarian vs. Egalitarian: Where do I Stand?

[@AZRefugeeMinistry]

As a woman, I completely see Scripture as you do regarding women's leadership role. God's plan is beautiful. Thank you, Alisa, for not shying away from controrsial topics!!!

[@hannahtedeschi673]

I survived every single one of the 43 hours of Mike Winger’s series…and I’m better for it 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻

[@katiep12345]

I am still listening to the first of the series. It’s a tough one. Hey, it should come with a t shirt!

[@ajwerth7558]

I was ordained as clergy in a mainline denomination over 30 years ago. The way that was possible was by ignoring many Biblical texts plus deciding that obviously these Scriptures were culturally driven and time bound. So we go from egalitarianism to doubting the credibility and sufficiency of the Bible, not because of actual textual criticism but because the Word said things that I then disagreed with. That’s not just a slippery slope-it’s an avalanche. Is the Bible true or not? As a seminary student I was taught that it isn’t. As I have read it and lived with it these last decades, I have discovered that God tells us the truth. Romans 3:3-4

[@amandamoffitt724]

You explained this so well. Thank you for being bold enough to talk about this and for seeking the truth in God’s Word. ♥️

[@thecollierreport]

I am Biblicaterian. My wife and I consulted Scripture and we also sorted our roles and duties based on things we could/liked to do and in some ways things weren't traditional. My wife said, "you're the head of this house, but remember who my daddy is." Aside from us figuring out what worked for us, we did not have a word to describe our relationship, e.g. your two options here. My wife and I were always equal before God and nobody lorded over the other, and yet I was the head of the house in order to serve the needs and interests of my wife and children. As an example of non traditional roles, I decorated the house while Dora preferred to do outdoor chores like mowing and shoveling snow. I routinely changed the kids especially if they were stinky because it didn't bother me like it did my wife. I was much more involved in childcare with my kids then many men, wiping snotty moses and changing diapers never bothered me, but for Dora, well, she was happy to let me do it. My wife at only 59 has advanced Alzheimer’s so that's why I speak in last tense, today she is in need of my total care. She also prepared me for this and bid me share her story is perchance it might lead others to Jesus. When she was well, then thing is before we got married we both studied the Word together, read books and commentary, before seeking counsel because we felt we should together arrive at the best image of what a godly marriage should be. When the model for marriage differs between a husband and a wife it will always cause conflict. If you are both Christians, study everything you can find in the Bible about marriage, decide together what you think that means, and make that the guidestar of your marriage with Jesus at the center.

[@cre8509]

“..IN ORDER TO SERVE..” Beautifully stated. This is the part most Christian men miss. They read “head” as “boss,” which isn’t the meaning at all. Jesus said, “I came not to be served but to serve.” Lead in sacrificial love. Thanks for sharing.

[@melodysledgister2468]

I love this, and I love how you are being Jesus to your precious wife, living out 1 Peter 3:7. No doubt it’s a tough road, but your sacrificial care for her is speaking volumes. You have not shunned the leadership responsibility in your home, which is also biblical. As for the division of labor, there is nothing in scripture to instruct us. Traditional roles are arbitrary, depending on the particular culture and the preferences of the couple.

[@karenshea5879]

@@cre8509 This right here! It has nothing to do with having the "final say" - the entire context of this scripture is service to one another. That's why verse 21, it says, "Submit to one another..." and in verse 32, Paul reminds us, "I am talking about Christ and the Church." Marriage should reflect the love within us, overflowing through serving one another just as Christ set the example for us.

[@realdadvswild]

So well-explained and solid from a Biblical perspective. Thank you. 🙏🏽✝️

[@saral6978]

Thank you for this timely video! I'm basically on the same side of the camp as you. I've begun to have some concerns about my own church's direction when it comes to women in pastoral and leadership roles as I've studied God's Word and grown in my faith in the last few years.

[@amberpenningtonmusic]

Thank you so much for your ministry! I have no words for how much your heart has blessed mine. Thank you for standing for the truth in such a beautiful and graceful way.

[@southwife]

Excellent, dear Sister in Christ. Godspeed.

[@dpixvid]

Been studying up on this and I’m impressed with your take! Did most of the Mike Winger series and it is very complete - thanks!

[@dabbler1166]

I finally gave up on Mike Winger. In fact, I'm thinking its a good idea to stay away from all-things-Calvary-Chapel. The problem i have with Mike is-- 1. He's farrrr too long-winded and by the time he fiiiinally gets done "framing it" (whatever he's talking about), by then he can make it say whatever he wants to say. And I already told him this many months ago on his own channel! 2. God forbid (pun intended) that Winger would ever read a Bible verse and say: this IS the answer. This is "what the Bible says" and call it good-- WITHOUT an often unnecessary 45 min. of deeper-dive "explaining". Not everything needs that. And the few things that might, are dangerously open to manipulation anytime that happens. and, FYI: I do have a Concordance, have listened to Frank Turek, Read some Lee Strobel, and CS Lewis, and Josh McDowell....so i have looked at some "deeper explanations" of theological issues. But I still say: a 45 min. "deep-dive" should NOT be one's "default setting".

[@melodysledgister2468]

@@dabbler1166That’s just Mike. I would call him thorough. You are correct that long winded-ness is not necessarily a virtue. Proverbs says, When words are many, sin is not absent. If this is an issue that you care about, I would take time to dissect what Mike is saying and make up your own mind. But it sounds like you have already made up your mind, and you just disagree with his ultimate conclusion.

[@SeanusAurelius]

@@dabbler1166 That's really only applicable to the Women in Ministry series (and a rare few others here and there). Compare it to e.g. his series on Mark or Jesus in the OT. I think the Women in Ministry videos are so long because he's trying to make it a true one-stop shop. Which is not a bad thing because peoples emotions are so high on the topic that given the tiniest nuance, people will take the opportunity to make it their sticking point. That said, I doubt I'd have the patience if I was any sort of convinced egalitarian. People prefer confrontation to be short.

[@wifeofcdh]

​@SeanusAurelius but he knows this and he has it so you can just go to that part of the lecture

[@thangminlensingson5615]

Sister Alisha i always appreciate your integrity towards the Biblical truth. I have tried telling this issue to many women that it is not only by becoming church pastor and ordination that women can work but there is so much avenues like you are doing in YT and many places. They perceive that denial of church pastor and ordination is a oppression to women but here you are so humble and doing such great ministry for the Lord. I pray many women watch this. God bless your ministry ❤

[@PastorDavidBess]

Well done. Thanks for explaining in detail where you stand.

[@garyjelich4709]

That 17-year-old girl could teach the other girls in her youth group, and then, when she gets old enough, could teach women and children at her church.

[@eligiadavid331]

Great explanation. Well done. Thanks

[@wilfredomendez3450]

Clear, concise an to the point, many thanks for sharing, God bless.

[@dabbler1166]

Whattaya know? a Video UNDER 20 minutes. Hallelujah! Comment: 1. what are called "shorts" are "almost useless" except to maybe make a drive-by point/posting or to let something hard-to-refute just dangle out there.... 2. BEST videos (unless its like two giant mega-scholars, debating) are between 6 and 15 minutes. Better to make two 15 minute one's than to make one half-hour one. Any longer, just BUY the darn Book! Just my opinion. . .

[@lizshella]

Very well done! Thank you for such a beautiful, concise discussion

[@clm3436]

Wow❣️ Never looked at it that way before: male/female anatomy... men lead, women receive🫶 And, yes, the context of the text is 100% talking about authority🙌❤️🙏

[@HomemakingwithRebekah]

I love the way you explained this! Thanks for your work Alisa!!

[@suzanneyorkville]

Thank you. I totally agree with this view.

[@francoisgrenier5070]

Thank you for stating your conviction so clearly. I appreciate and find helpful what you say. And my questions are not there to criticize you. In no way. On the contrary, I want to encourage you. Warning, English is not my mother tongue. So forgive my clumsiness. First a question: what does Paul want to express when he speaks of teaching? Is it exhortation, encouragement, testimony, announcing the gospel or leading the listeners to understand the prophecies, or even prophesying? Or teaching a doctrine? I do not understand ancient Greek well but according to scholars, it is rather the latter possibility. So I would tend to believe it too. So women could speak in public. On the other hand, they are not authorized to take authority over men like Jezebel. Churches that prohibit women from teaching are mostly hypocrites. Most entrust women with teaching children. There is another problem in churches. To be recognized as being able to play a role, they must be called "pastor". Other ministries (evangelist, etc.) are not recognized as such, so no support, no salary, etc. One last question. OK, you refuse to find yourself behind a pulpit in the building called a church. But, through your videos, you speak out. So how would you define what you do?

[@solidtruthministries]

I agree with you, Alisa.

[@charleschi843]

Paul’s letter was written for instructions for the weekly assembly/governance of the church. Paul knew that his instructions were not for one local assembly, this is why he aimed his audience toward Genesis and the created order: A mandate for all churches in all times. Only men should be the spiritual punching bags and lightning rods as pastors and preachers in the church.

[@Szpak-123]

Doesn't work. The Judges were pastors/shepherds. So, Deborah. Judges 4 and 5.

[@wifeofcdh]

100 percent on Mike Wingers

[@ready2roamrv289]

Excellent explanation. Thank you, Alisa.

[@christinebarnes899]

Thank you, Alisa! We are in discussion with our church over this very issue and can't believe the nastiness from the egalitarian camp, simply because they cannot support their stance from Scripture.

[@Szpak-123]

Look at it this way, there are 2 sons of Israel having a hypothetical discussion during the time of Shamgar the son of Anath (Judges 3). One states that there was no possibility that God would ever send a woman to be a Judge over Israel. He states his invalid argument to the other man. We know his argument was invalid because the next Judge was a woman, that is, Deborah. What is the valid argument put forward by the man that believed that God could indeed send a woman as a Judge? If you don't know that argument then you're missing something. Keep in mind that the Judge was the primary pastor/shepherd of God's people during this time period. A Judge could judge homicide cases. A Judge could teach from the Law, that is, scripture, when giving a verdict. The above paragraph is indeed valid. I wrote an informal free essay on Deborah and am very familiar with her story.

[@conceptualclarity]

​@@Szpak-123 is someone who has denounced the ministry of the Apostle Paul

[@Szpak-123]

@@conceptualclarity Paul wasn't a perfect teacher.

[@conceptualclarity]

@@Szpak-123 The writings of the prophets of God divinely ordained and preserved in the books of the Bible are perfect (Ps. 19:7, Pr. 30:5).

[@Norrin777Radd]

I'm sorry you are having that experience. My own experience is that complementarians and other patriarchalists are usually the more pugnacious and vitriolic. In any case, assuming those egalitarians in your church at least make the claim to respect Scripture, they would be well advised to educate themselves on the Scriptural arguments. There are great resources available free of charge at the web sites of CBE International, Terran Williams, Marg Mowczko, and others, and good KZbin videos by Craig Keener, Ben Witherington III, Andrew Bartlett, and the aforementioned Terran Williams.

[@mrtdiver]

People, it does not matter what Alisa Childers says on this subject, and it does not matter Mike Winger says, or what I say. What matters is what God's word says. Scripture is clear, but we don't want to listen and submit to it. Fear God. Our life is but a breath and we pass away.

[@alexhorton3759]

As a comment below said, Biblical leadership is all about servant leadership. The early church did not have pastors, elders or deacons in the sense we think of them today. No one, whether man or woman, should be usurping Biblical authority, especially the ultimate authority of Jesus Christ and His Word.

[@DavidRodriguez-hg6kq]

I have attended an Assemblies of God denomination since the early 1980s. We have a Bible school that began handing out diplomas for women pastor's. I don't know what to think of this and I know it's a controversial topic. Before the Bible school was created we had no women that held the position of a minister. Thank you for bringing out this topic.

[@cryptojihadi265]

It's not controversial at all. It's clearly spelled out in the scripture as being forbidden. We like to cloak direct disobediance to God's commands as merely being "controversial", as if it's a matter of opinion or discussion. I like to joke that it takes at least a Masters, if not a PHD to figure out how to make a scripture passage mean the exact opposite of it's plainly stated meaning.

[@AliyahNadeau]

AOG does allow female pastors and has for many years,my grandparents pastored a church in the AOG for more than 30 years and my grandmother before she passed took over the roll for many years when my grandfather couldn’t do to health issues,I was fully convinced growing up that women could be pastors but after my grandmother passed (I say this with no bitterness or anything against her we were extremely close)I was convicted and fully came to the conclusion that women cannot be pastors.

[@conceptualclarity]

If God wanted women to be pastors why would He create a permanent burr in their saddle by putting in the Bible passages which require extraordinary calisthenics in order for one not to conclude that women being pastors is utterly ruled out? Only somebody who desperately wants to believe that women being pastors is okay can conclude that it is compatible with the Bible..

[@cryptojihadi265]

@@conceptualclarity The rebellious never rest. They will do ANYTHING rather than submit.

[@Motherhubbard170]

AMEN!!! I SO do not want to do what a man does, let alone pretend to be one

[@Michele-hd1uh]

At 17, this young woman should seek out an older Titus 2 woman.

[@Dan-ch8kv]

Andrew Wilson broke down the theological triage by saying that there are things written in Blood, Pen, and Pencil. Blood are the doctrines the martyrs died for. These are Gospel issues that differentiate Christian’s from non Christian’s Pen is a secondary view, so it’s not a salvation topic, but it does have practical implications over how we do church. This topic flows into this category. A team of 5 elders that have 3 men and 2 women can’t lead well if 2 of the men are complimentarian. But a complimentarian church and an egalitarian church (that still holds to the Gospel and biblical authority) can get along in the city together, while not doing church together. And Pen issues fall into subjects like eschatology. These can bleed into the other two depending on their severity, but I’ve changed my views on this 4 times now and it hasn’t once changed how I lead or interact with differing views within the same local body.

[@717JHT]

derek prince has a sermon series on this topic called "women in the church" - you can find it on youtube; he said that in the original greek the word "teach" in 1 timothy 2:12 has a meaning of authority/leadership, meaning she is not to have a leadership position, ....so she could be an evangelist, but not a lead pastor for example :)

[@conceptualclarity]

The Greek word teach in first Timothy 2 means teach. It's not fancy and you'll find that out if you do your own research

[@NC_27]

Thanks for this video Mrs Childers. I'm from Kenya and a lot of evangelical churches here take an egalitarian stand, including my current church. It's always on my mind and I know that the complimentarian stand is the biblical standard, however this is where God's planted me. Back in 2022 I really wrestled with this matter so much so that I didn't go to church for a whole month but God graciously prompted me to go back. I'm not comfortable with it but I remember Hebrews 10:25 so I just attend. All in all, thanks for addressing this 🙏.

[@jamiebrown4472]

Very helpful❤️

[@georgwilliamfriedrichhegel5744]

Winger's series is a masterpiece, but (as I recall) his conclusion is that "women can't be elders (as defined Biblically) and should be careful when doing elder-like/adjacent things." But I think that just moves the question to "what authority does an elder have?" What I want to see from the complementarian camp is more discussion of use-cases, so to speak, as well as a discussion of what "spiritual authority" means. Can someone with "spiritual authority" control what I believe? As a male, should I be listening to Alisa right now? Sometimes she says things and I think "She makes a good point, I'll change my thinking"...should I not do that? What's the difference between her talking about the dangers of progressive thought on KZbin and her doing it on stage during a worship service? Those kinds of things.

[@skiamach6208]

Winger does talk about practical applications in the series, especially towards the end of the series. The example of Priscilla and Aquila teaching Apollos might be enlightening, and Winger discusses that example at length a number of times. The discussion about authority in general is related but still a different topic. But many protestants believe in "the priesthood of the believer". Which means that all Christians have the Holy Spirit within them and can speak and judge with that authority. Again, application can be difficult. My own personal view is that each Christian must judge for themselves (with the Holy Spirit's help and their own study of scripture (which is God breathed)) which words to heed. Personally, there is not a single Christian teacher that I agree with 100% but I am still built up by the words of many of them.

[@georgwilliamfriedrichhegel5744]

@@skiamach6208 Good point. The way I kinda think about things is that "authority" comes from a person's reasoning and sources, e.g., I listen to my pastor because he has training and gives reasons for his opinions. The challenge to the complementarian view (from that perspective) is that a woman can say "This means this because of X reason" just as well as a man.

[@greggpurviance7252]

Jesus has authority. All authority has been given to him. Pastors don't have "authority" they have responsibility to make disciples, teaching His word that has authority.

[@georgwilliamfriedrichhegel5744]

@@greggpurviance7252 I agree that Jesus has all authority...but, then, what does "spiritual authority" mean in the complementarian/egalitarian discussion?

[@Szpak-123]

@@georgwilliamfriedrichhegel5744 Georg. I think my personal definition of Complementarianism would be helpful here. Complementarianism The priesthood of the New Covenant is a 2-tiered priesthood based on birthright. That false and confusing teaching, that states Christian women are less than Christian men in a spiritual way, but they really aren't, but they really are. The complementarian teaching prohibits a Christian woman from holding certain positions in a church. They can't be elders neither can they teach men. So why is that? The false teaching makes it clear that the priesthood of the New Covenant is tiered. There is a hierarchy. Those that are higher, the men, can be in leadership positions, like elder. They can teach other men. Those in the lower tier can not be in leadership positions, like elder. They are prohibited from teaching men, because the men are in the higher tier. It wouldn't make any sense. A new believer is automatically assigned their level, higher or lower, at the moment of salvation, as a birthright. Their gender determines their tier. A Christian can not move to a higher or lower tier. A Christian that is in the lower tier (woman) is not allowed to complain of the tier she was placed in. That would be sin, because God made her a woman by His choice. She should accept and also embrace her position in the lower tier. A church, is either a group of Christian men or a group of Christian men and women. A church can never be a group of Christian women, because it would be a group of only those in the lower tier. It would have no elders. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. -excerpt 1 Peter 2 Since the teaching states that women are spiritually inferior to men, but they aren't, but they are, when did that start? But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer. -excerpt 1 Timothy 2 It started with the first woman. She was deceived, and sinned because of it. So we have a teaching that accepts that men and women are fallen beings. Both genders are sinful by nature. However women are different. They are lacking the ability that men have to judge if some situation, some concept or teaching is sinful. This inability was passed down from Eve to all women. It remains to this day. A woman in our time was 'lacking' from birth, even from the womb. So what can be done? Nothing according to Complementarianism. The teaching states that even an anointing of that powerful masculine being called the Holy Spirit, is just not sufficient. It states that even the Holy Spirit can not elevate even one Christian woman to the spiritually superior level of a Christian man.

[@rval6051]

The why question is a big one for me, Alisa sais she can only speculate on why God doesn’t want women to preach with authority to men, her speculation doesn’t cut it for me. I have only listened to part of Mike‘s take, haven’t gotten an answer to the why yet either. Obviously God speaks to women and there are a TON of extremely smart, knowledgeable ladies who have so much wisdom to share that’s certainly relevant for men as well, why not preach to men? I agree however that the text is what it is, I‘m willing to accept that I just struggle to unterstand why. Also, Alisa has a huge platform that probably has more impact on more men than most male preachers have, why is that ok? (Don’t get me wrong I love her stuff).

[@Szpak-123]

You need to know 2 things. #1) Understand Deborah and what a Judge was (I have a short free postable essay.) #2) Understand and know, that Paul wasn't a perfect teacher. (That is another free essay.) Commentary with scripture, with limited opinions.

[@Norrin777Radd]

In the spirit of Prov. 18:17, please read the responses to Mike by Andrew Bartlett and Terran Williams at Terran's Web site.

[@amandaspeicher7801]

Would you please differentiate between Pastor and Preacher? I feel that God gives giftings according to His perfect Will - not necessarily along our pre-determined gender roles.

[@ScottPuopolo]

Preacher is a teaching position. Pastor / elder is an overseer position. Viewed the same in scripture. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. - 1 Timothy 2:12

[@winapitts6723]

Biblical Counselor, it's a teaching position close to that of pastor, but not the pastorate. Of course, keep in mind, we women counselors never counsel men or males age 13 and above. We are sorely needed as women find it easier to "talk" to another woman about certain things than talking to any man. I also never counsel marriage problems without a pastor or male counselor, not only present but also in lead.

[@twistedlimb4053]

Teaching children is securing the future of a God led humanity. Deut. 6

[@makobean]

On head coverings: Avoid Mike Winger. He doesn't navigate the reasoning on it well (based on creation, applies to all churches), and he uses a single (or was it two?) piece of art to conclude that head coverings were cultural. He's actually wrong -- head coverings were not practiced this way in Corinth. And even if it did align with their culture, Paul's argument is about head coverings specifically (not modesty, not wedding rings, etc) and he says all churches do things this way, regarding coverings and silence. He basically just gives a dismissive answer at the end: "Yeah, it really sounds like we're supposed to do head coverings...but anyway make up your own mind, and I say it's just cultural." As for "reconciling" women being silent vs speaking with covering, that is done by noting the shift in focus. Paul is giving general instruction before (head coverings when speaking), and later switches to the repeated context of "en ecclesia". Women may speak in prophecy, prayer, etc, in non-"en ecclesia" contexts. But in "en ecclesia" contexts, they are not to speak that way. Granted, that leaves the question of exactly which contexts fall into which category, but at any rate, that's the straightforward explanation. The Head Covering Movement has some good resources, including a book written by the guy who started it (Jeremy Gardiner), although I don't agree with all of his conclusions and applications. But he deals well with the "it's just cultural" arguments and helps people understand the basic thrust of the text. He even gets into a biological possibility for what "nature" could mean when Paul says nature teaches us women ought to be covered (although the biological reason is not the only option, or might be one of several ideas Paul has in mind).

[@conceptualclarity]

I have noticed that Winger tends to huff and puff about how bravely he is taking on the egalitarians, and it does take some bravery to say anything in contradiction to them. But he ends up with limp noodle conclusions. 1 Corinthians 11 is clearly not about admonishing one local church to keep in line with its own cultural context and the fact that all the excusing away that passage only began at the tail end of church history is pretty telling. It is so unbelievable that he embraces the judging prophecy farce of an interpretation of 1 Corinthians 14:34-37, which is not traceable in church history prior to 1962 as I understand it. The parallel silence passage in 1st Timothy 2:11-12 says nothing about prophesying.

[@Terrylb285]

What’s next,children in pastoral roles?

[@heartofalegend]

What about secret option #3: Patriarchalism? More and more folks are going back and taking a second look at suffrage, women voting, etc, and making some compelling observations that are at least worth discussing.

[@cre8509]

Yikes

[@heartofalegend]

@@cre8509 It is a bit scary, I fully admit. But when you start to dig and see the origins of feminism and "women's rights", you see a very dark picture of a movement that was feared by ministers and women, alike. When they speak of what they were afraid would happen as a result of women's suffrage, it reads like a laundry list of all the things the church is currently battling, and that threaten to finally destroy this nation. The time has come for the church to take a closer look at these matters, and perhaps repent for a century-old divergence from God's intended design. Maybe this is an important step in the Holy Spirit granting the revival that so many of us have been praying for. Again, it's time to at least start having the discussion.

[@SeanusAurelius]

Not really a church governance issue, unless you've got congregational governance and you're talking about who can vote.

[@icecoolguita]

For voting, that's of the world. I don't believe Christians should try to change the world (world will always be in opposition to God anyway).

[@johnglaze2565]

Check out Mike Winger's 4 hour conclusion video Alisa mentioned. He addresses all three views: E, C, P. Each has subdivisions just as Alisa has described here. Mike took 2 years to research and created 40 hours of online video content to describe it, followed by the 4 hour application video referring back to various clarifications in the previous 40 hours. A real feat.

[@coco31854]

I loved Mike Winger's series on Women In Ministry. It was excellent and well worth my time.

[@mattziemer5361]

Our concept of a pastor is not really supported by scripture. If how a shepherd functions reflected scripture more accurately woman being a "pastor" would not be an issue.

[@growtocycle6992]

What about an apostle?

[@jasonhilliker492]

Yes. Get the meaning correct and then use the word correctly.

[@Szpak-123]

@@growtocycle6992 A woman, Deborah, was a Judge over Israel. The Judge was the primary/senior pastor/shepherd of God's people at that time period. There were some gender-specific roles in the Old Covenant, but there are none in the new.

[@itsonlyme1517]

If you hold to a trinitarian view (as do I), I believe we see community and complementarianism modeled by the Trinity.

[@QuinnEdwards1]

It is Adam and Eve’s mandate to multiply and not ours. Paul says it is better that people remain single for undivided devotion to god

[@Norrin777Radd]

First, Paul gives that implication (1 Cor. 7.32-33) specifically in the context of the "present distress" or "impending crisis" (7.26). Second, elsewhere in the same letter (9.5) he seems to lament not having a wife. Third, the mandate to multiply was given to all humans alive at the time. If we argue it applied ONLY to them, we should make the same argument about the image and likeness of God, and the mandate to rule the earth.

[@SpeakerBuilder]

In my view, women should not lead in ministry not because they cannot lead, which in many cases they can, or because they have no spiritual discernment which again often they do, but simply because while they can play an important role in leading other women and children, primarily men need to be led by other men. Not that a man cannot learn from a women, as their wives can often speak important truths into their lives, but that men being given the role of leadership by God as His primary representatives need to hear from and model other men, including their fathers for those who were blessed to have Godly fathers, or any other older and wiser man. We as men will look more naturally to other men for leadership, as do women and children.

[@Szpak-123]

Men and women were stated in Genesis to be made in God's image. you wrote: but that men being given the role of leadership by God as His primary representatives This is a bias. God has no bias in this matter. That is why the primary/senior pastor/shepherd over Israel could be a man or a woman. Deborah, Judges 4 and 5.

[@JohnMark1313]

I appreciate that you present this as a spectrum of positions and not just the two extremes. I think this speaks to the diversity of perspectives and the challenge to sort out how statements in one historical context can be applied in another. At one point you suggest that feminism has poisoned things and I would suggest that historical patriarchy did so first. One turning point for me was a study on the term Cornerstone (literally, head of the corner) and finding that the first century term did not have a hierarchical, metaphoric understanding which was chosen when creating headship theology, the creators of which help form complementarianism.

[@skiamach6208]

When "cornerstone" is mentioned, I immediately think of Jesus who is described as the chief cornerstone. And Jesus does have authority, ultimate authority. I don't know if you meant to imply that Jesus' authority is a fabrication of later Christians, but if so, that is something that I think goes against all the teachings of scripture. Humans are hierarchical. And everything I have read in scripture implies that God made us that way. It is a modern fabrication that hierarchies are inherently evil. Humans are evil and we corrupt everything, and so hierarchies can become evil, but they are not inherently so. Our most basic hierarchy as Christians is Jesus is Lord. That is not an evil thing.

[@JohnMark1313]

@@skiamach6208 He also created us equal. We have used the hierarchical argument to subjugate many categories of people. Yes, Jesus is God and Lord and we get that from many passages. My point is that we use the English word “head” both in a literal (on our shoulders) and figurative (head of a company, which is hierarchical). The Greek word had the same literal meaning but not the same figurative meaning. We cannot transfer our current metaphoric definition onto another language, 2000 years ago, but we do to support headship theology.

[@skiamach6208]

@@JohnMark1313 Mike Winger addresses the meaning of "head" in his series (and I think gives a satisfactory explanation of how it is used). But the "head" is only one out of many terms used. Semantics aside, the problem I see with those who want to just throw away authority as inherently evil is that they see authority as power rather than a responsibility. The idea of leadership roles within society, within the church, and within the family is clearly taught in scripture. Parents have authority over their children and that is a good thing. Good parents are not abusing that authority but exercise it for the good of their children. God has appointed governors in society to exercise justice and for keeping the peace. God has appointed leaders in the church to shepherd His flock. There is no getting around these things if you actually believe that the Bible is God's word. Does evil exist in the human heart, and can authority be abused, yes. But that is not the intent of authority. Authority is given by God as a help for human communities. Jesus gave us the meaning of authority. Leaders are to serve. Yet at the same time they remain leaders. Jesus is the example of this. That societies through all ages have seen authority as something to selfishly desire shows that they have twisted the role of authority and do not properly understand it. In this way, you are no different. You have accepted society's definition of authority rather than God's. Authority is a heavy responsibility that should be shouldered only after prayer and guidance from God. God will judge those in authority more harshly than others should they lead others astray or otherwise abuse their authority.

[@JohnMark1313]

@@skiamach6208 I will have to search out Winger’s talk on “head.” The issue is not that God given authority exists. I see two issues here, one is if women are allowed to have any leadership or authority in the church or anywhere and second, do the “headship” passages teach patriarchy? KZbin and especially this podcast would indicate it is not as simple and clear as some would make it out to be. My perspective comes from a few years in the ministry of Bible translation and learning the challenges of language that preclude some of the clear, black and white interpretations with these secondary issues.

[@JohnMark1313]

@@skiamach6208 I tried to find Winger’s bit on the term “head.” I waded through a 4 hour vid on what women can and cannot do but only found a skim of the subject. He used the term headship several times and stated that he felt it refers to authority but not why. Sounded like I have to wade through 40 hours of instruction on women’s roles to find the in depth part which is a road too long. I will respectfully disagree with his interpretation. I would say that if it takes 40 hours to explain all the intricacies of women’s roles in and out of church, maybe it is not as straight forward as some suggest.

[@miketaylor9969]

What about a woman on the church board?

[@conceptualclarity]

Wrong by I Cor. 14:34 and I Tim. 2:12.

[@miketaylor9969]

@@conceptualclarity Yes,but those that use those verses never include board members,and that seems to be the thing now

[@StayInTheWord]

Female Eldership undermined the authority and clarity of scripture. - @ScottAniol

[@ShirleneGroseclose]

My husband depends on me to spiritually lead our home. We have no children. He is still growing and has yet to commit 100 percent to the Lord. I desperately hunger for the time he will step up spiritually. I bare the role meanwhile reluctantly. I still respect him as head of our household in all ways, though. But my husband really values my thoughts on all things. In a way, I am blessed, but desire my husband to be our spiritual head of our home so much.

[@Szpak-123]

you wrote: but desire my husband to be our spiritual head of our home so much. You have accepted a false teaching. Men and women are spiritually equal.

[@terry.stafford]

Thanks Alisa. You never got around to the role of worship leader. I’ve always felt like the title is misleading in that a worship leader isn’t really a leader in the church. And the way they choose to lead worship has a bearing on whether they are crossing a line. For example, not all worship leaders take time to read Scripture and “teach” between songs. Some do. Some don’t. As a worship leader myself, I speak very little. In this context, it seems that female worship leaders are on solid ground. Also as a worship leader, I was never invited to leadership meetings, which for me, validates my view. What say you? I think about it often.

[@Szpak-123]

(not this channel) you wrote: I’ve always felt like the title is misleading in that a worship leader isn’t really a leader in the church. That makes no real sense. If you are directing people to sing a song with false/true lyrics, it must be important. Men and woman are equal before God. _______________________________________________________ Then Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam sang on that day, saying, “For the leaders leading in Israel, For the people volunteering, Bless the Lord! Hear, you kings; listen, you dignitaries! I myself-to the Lord, I myself will sing, I will sing praise to the Lord, the God of Israel! -excerpt Judges 5

[@ronwilliamson-uz7kb]

I just dont understand the nit picking in the American protistant church. We all realize that kids are being raised today in our country who have no idea what a Bible is - dont we? Cant we put aside doctrinal differences in order to reach a lost and dying world. Are we truly spending our time rearanging the deck chairs on the titanic. If a woman preaches/speaks/teaches and someone is saved by it are they any less saved? God help us we need his grace for we are fools.

[@conceptualclarity]

I think I would speak for a lot of people in answering your final question no and simultaneously asserting that faithfulness in obedience to the scripture is important. If God went to the trouble to give us rules for the church, it's bad to set them aside on the basis of flimsy justifications.

[@debraisola9037]

Woman Pastors ..not biblical. And no gay woman preachers..blasphemous. Why I left a Presbyterian church. Truth 🙌 Pray for biblical doctrin and to have desernment.

[@americandropbear5081]

Alisa and Rosaria Butterfield did speak at a conference at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church where men were in the audience. Rosaria is effectively a female lay preacher at this point.

[@MoonMoon-fx1op]

If men were present, that's their fault lol

[@americandropbear5081]

@@MoonMoon-fx1op Why didn’t the church advertise it as a women’s event?

[@MoonMoon-fx1op]

@@americandropbear5081 blame the men for not leaving. It's really that simple.

[@Gadfly247]

Complementarian. This is not a debate. Churches that embrace Egalitarianism have had their lampstand removed.

[@tedroybal5231]

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." This is how the church worked IN PRACTICE. The church, 100% of it is in service of the mission to carry the gospel to the world. The evil one loves complimentarianism because it reduces the number of those carrying the gospel to the world by more than 50%. Why more than 50%? Because there are more women in our churches than men.

[@clarkcoleman8143]

Galatians 3 is speaking of equality in salvation, but is abused by egalitarians to apply universally .

[@pastorthomaso]

@@clarkcoleman8143 Agreed 100%. The above comment is utter nonsense and completely out of context to try to justify Egalitarianism. "the evil one loves complimentarianism" What a joke. Just because women shouldn't be pastors has no bearing on the number of people carrying the gospel into the world unless one believes that only pastors carry it...which is also another common misunderstanding of the way things ought to work in the body.

[@greggpurviance7252]

Nonsense. No one says women can't go an evangelize

[@icecoolguita]

This is not true. A universalist can say all will be saved in the end because they believe it demonstrates 'more of' God's love-but that does not make it God's will. A universalist views it as 'more of God's love(it isn't)' from human standards but do not understand the Holiness of God.

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

@@greggpurviance7252 The Bible does not allow women to evangelize, as there were NO female evangelists in the 1st century church. All of the evangelists that were specifically named are all MEN. And no, none of the women who visited Christ's tomb were evangelists just because the resurrected Christ told Mary Magdalene to inform the disciples that they were supposed to meet up with Him in Galilee.

[@danzo8372]

I see the point you are making but what I don't understand is, what's the difference between you having a YT channel and speaking on the word compared to giving a word once in church? I don't understand that. Giving a word from the pulpit as a guest speaker doesn't mean you are the authority of that church. It just means you have something God has laid on your heart and are sharing it. I don't live in the US, but I live in an area where there are not always men who have just not stepped up regarding preaching the word. But there are maybe one or 2 females that have done what they could to teach!/preach and they have been called by God to do so, and they have done that with wisdom and stepped down when necessary etc. I do not think they were led by the devil in those decisions because they have changed countless lives and kept the church going.

[@Szpak-123]

Readers are advised to remember that demons are liars. Not everything that Boltglue says should be assumed to be true, even from his own perspective. -S. Szpak Nightowl, my dear brother Encourage legalism. Our servants, the lawyers, were condemned by the Liar's son harshly in the New Words: But He said, “Woe to you lawyers as well! For you load people with burdens that are hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. And even more: Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering.” The letter of the law kills, so let it do its job. Even the New Words say: But we know that the law is good,... So teach legalism. Teach that whatever a female speaks indoors has more weight than if she speaks it outdoors. Make sure "the pulpit" is a mystical place indoors, in their phony religion. Call it a 'sanctuary', whatever that is. If a female does speak from "the pulpit" be sure all in attendance know that she is only being ALLOWED TO SPEAK BECAUSE A MALE ALLOWED IT. It is still terrible, but at least it's something. -your just and older brother Boltglue -excerpt from a Boltglue Email

[@karenshea5879]

I appreciate how you celebrated the unique differences between men and women. I believe that is so important in a world with so much confusion and chaos surrounding the topic. However, I believe we can celebrate our unique differences without there being a patriarch between the two. Patriarchy resulted from the fall - we don’t live under the fall. I view everything Paul says through a gospel lens. Jesus completely flipped the script for women. He let them sit at His feet and take the place of a disciple when it was illegal for them to be taught the Bible. He sent the Samaritan woman to testify to her city, and because of her word, people came to Him. Mary M was the first to preach the good news. There is no denying that Paul wrote some harsh instructions to women. But, you have to read his instructions in light of his practice. You especially have to read it in light of how Jesus treated women AND called them. If his practice doesn’t align with his instructions, it’s possible there is something more going on than a universal rule. Here are SOME of the women Paul mentions on the pages of Scripture: Lydia led her house to the Lord and was the first person in Europe to open a house church in Philippi. It was Jewish custom for ten men to be required to begin a synagogue. There were not ten men available. Most early church examples indicate that the householder led the church in pastoral matters, finances, etc). Other female household leaders were Chloe, Nympha. In the greco-roman world, a man's name was always listed first. Name order was very important for every social order of the day. When the New Testament talks about Priscilla and Aquila, Aquila is always mentioned first, UNLESS their teaching ministry is in view, then their names are reversed -Priscilla and Aquila. Pheobe was a deaconess. She didn't just deliver Paul's letter but was entrusted to teach its original intent Junia was an apostle and considered "Outstanding amongst the apostles". Apostleship was the highest level of office in the Bible. In 1 Timothy 2:12, Paul dealt with some very specific issues within his social and historical context. Specifically, there were two cultural situations: the temple of Artemis and the cult of Cybele. The cult of Cybele was very well-known for women who were teaching a theology that they had superiority over men. In this context, Paul reminds everyone that “there is no room for that - the gospel looks different.” 

The word “authority” is the Greek word, “Afthóntheon,” and it is a type of authority that means to “domineer over.” I don’t understand this as a rule set for all time or even that a woman would need a man’s permission to teach, but the spirit of which women and men teach one another matters. God’s created design was side by side - there is not room to try and domineer one another.
 
The Greek language is masculine, and you do not see male pronouns in the original text. “Husband of one wife” was an idiom used at that time on gravesites to show faithfulness to one spouse when polygamy was the norm and only legal for men, btw! I believe Titus to be an implication of morality, not gender hierarchy. 
The Church has five distinct leadership roles (Ephesians 4:11-13). The prophets, the evangelists, the pastors, the teachers, and the apostles. With the exception of pastor, because the Bible doesn’t label any specific person as pastor (however, see note above on Lydia), there are examples of women leading in every role alongside men. Not one over the other. Side by side. The church can’t afford to bench half the army. We keep focusing on these non essential issues, while the church is bleeding out. Let God do the appointing - He doesn’t seem to choose by gender.

[@Szpak-123]

you wrote: Patriarchy resulted from the fall - we don’t live under the fall. Incorrect. The Judge over Israel was the primary/senior pastor/shepherd. A Judge could be a man or a woman. A Judge could teach, as written. A Judge could judge anything, including homicide cases, and therefore execute a man for his sin. God ruled Israel through the Judge. I suggest my free informal postable essay on Deborah.

[@rhondabulmer9604]

Alisa, do you only answer questions from women? If not, isn't answering questions from men a violation of authority? I understand the desire to honour proper authority, and I understand the desire to return motherhood and the instruction of children to its proper place of honour, but what bothers me about this line of thinking is the legalism it inspires--witnessed by the number of muslim responses there are in the comments. The hair-splitting about what women can and cannot do turns me off, and its logic falls apart for me. Why would God want that when Jesus spent so much time elevating women? I have spent most of my Christian walk in charismatic and Pentecostal circles, and given that the Asuza street revival was experienced by women, and in my geographic area, were the missionaries who established churches, the denomination has no problem with women leaders. For my denomination, it's the quality of the leadership that matters.

[@sherylcarruth1332]

Read the Bible. Denominations will fail; they are manmade.

[@rhondabulmer9604]

@@sherylcarruth1332 I do read the bible.

[@clarkcoleman8143]

The relevant NT passages concern the exercise of authority in the home and in the ekklesia, the congregation. I can simply agree or disagree with anything on KZbin, or not watch it at all. Alisa exercises no home or congregational authority over me.

[@rhondabulmer9604]

@@clarkcoleman8143 Thanks.

[@SeanusAurelius]

@@sherylcarruth1332 1) The Bible uses denominational terms like Nicolaitans. 2) Unless you think everyone will adopt your stance on every contentious topic, there will be Christians that disagree with you and want to worship together. Which means someone will coin a name for them. Is there too much denominational splitting and bickering? Sure.

[@Hemocracy]

Allah ( God Almighty ) says : *And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honor.* (Quran)

[@Hemocracy]

I wonder about Christian women, why don't they dress like "Mary", the mother of "Jesus", peace be upon them? Even though her pictures show how she dressed.🧕

[@americandropbear5081]

There are no photographs, and even if there were, women are not required to dress like 2,000 years ago.

[@Hemocracy]

Allah ( God Almighty , Whom Christians call "the father" ) says : * Verily, the Muslims (those who submit to Allah ) men and women, the believers men and women (monotheists), the men and the women who are obedient (to Allah), the men and women who are truthful (in their speech and deeds), the men and the women who are patient ( Those who make lawful what God has made lawful, and forbid what God has forbidden. ), the men and the women who are humble (before their Lord Allah), the men and the women who give Sadaqat (Charity for the poor and alms, etc.), the men and the women who observe the obligatory fasting ( during the month of Ramadan), the men and the women who guard their chastity (from illegal sexual acts) and the men and the women who remember, Allah much with their hearts and tongues ( the remembrance of Allah during the five compulsory congregational prayers) Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).* (Quran)