Controversial America's Cup Cyclors are NOT what you thought

Cyclors are controversial. To many they symbolise how far the Cup has stepped away from traditional yachting. Lets have a deeper look at how the teams might optimise this new area of the rules.
Thanks to TAAP Endura cycling for their footage. Check them out on Insta here: / taap_racing
Recon video and photos credit to Recon Photographer / @America's Cup
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[@dadcooks1347]

The main advantage of leg grinders is that they can use their hands for other tasks at the same time, like Blair Tuke in Bermuda. Super efficient use of human resource.

[@nigelw.9043]

for me, the Cyclors are the only option as it means the grinders can be putting out the necessary power while having their hands free to be tasked with operations on the boat. Let's not forget these are 75ft boats which would normally be handled by a crew two to three times the headcount the AC rules allow. Distributing tasks amongst the crew is essential to a good performance. Big guys just sitting in the boat turning handles is important but having the cycle is elevating the value to the overall teams performance. The muscular performance of the Cyclors was for many the standout feature in AC35. However the use of legs meant the NZL could power the boat way better but in the meantime some of the cyclors were tasked with flying the boat at a steady hight.

[@ObviouslySeriouslyDGAF]

I'll take the credit for the introduction of cyclor. No bull. Here's my story. I emailed team NZ and suggested they put cyclist on the boat in October 2015 and got a reply from Dan Bernasconi saying they were thinking about it already but the trade off could make it difficult. Then when the boat was launched i emailed him and asked for a ride on the boat as it was my idea, he said i had to share the credit with many others. He said if i was in Auckland he would be glad to take me for a tour of the team base. I booked my flight from Melbourne straight away to be in Auckland that weekend. On 11.03.2017 i was at the team base. True to his words, Dan lead me in the door. I had the most awesome experience any sport fan could have. I've been a fan of the cup since 1983. Dan spent about an hour with me showing me the whole base. I'm a mechanical engineer so we talked alot of tech. Best part is when he told me about the guy he got to do the control system and how it was done. I was chuckling to myself during the cup as the world was wondering what the "x-box" controller was, yet i knew exactly what it was. To top if off, i get to touch the rudder as team was preparing to put the boat into the water. Yes, the idea if pedal power on a boat is not new. But I'm convinced my email prompted the team to take that risk. They would have thought "surely if a random fan is thinking about this, the other teams must be thinking it too". And history will show if you look back to all the past interview when the team was asked when did they decided to go with the design, the team said they went with the concept of "throwing the ball as far as we can and see if we can reach it". That was November 2015. Everytime i see cyclors, my heart filled with joys.

[@AnthonyBoscolo]

Your comment is right on about pedaling against a constant force... My experience was turning a propeller in the water. Offsetting pedals on a tandem style makes a tremendous difference in how it feels on the body. Also, an individual's optimum power output falls at a particular cadence...which probably changes with fatigue. They probably have gearing to allow a change in the amount of load that person is feeling. The pump might also have an efficiency curve they are trying to operate in...so they may need gearing for that as well. The last few seconds of this video shows how we addressed this issue: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rXTdf5KKatR-bNE

[@MartialLoreNZ]

Man, I never heard of any winches with gearing. Must be a new idea....

[@bradclifton5248]

I just had a thought. On old big tall ships. The big winches were leg powered by men walking around the block. So, while small boats always used arm strength, legs were not outside the thoughts or processes. Therefore, its not such a huge departure. The question of how this technology, as it is now, could be used on ocean going racers or rven, more conventional private yachts. Could be interesting.

[@PhilandErika]

I use oval c/ring on a MTB and much better on technical climbs when you are almost stalled - but for the boat cyclors the 90° phase shift makes most sense.

[@miamisasquatch]

Or multiple 45_60 degrees based on number of linked drives

[@user-xp1pf7sf1y]

Despite some people's complaints the AC has always been a design and technology race/war (and remember: 'match racing' only happens when it happens, it's just as often a 'drag race'). If cyclors, wing sails, foil arms, battery packs, etc. are anathema to you there are plenty of other choices available. The fact remains the current iteration of AC boats only work by being on water and having the wind to give them forward motion. That meets the requirements for 'sailing', everything else is just detail and opinion. Aspects of the AC at present may be ugly, unnecessary, and counter-productive to some of us, but, hey ho, times, materials, and fashions will change and we'll all have something else to moan about in a little while.

[@nicholasyeats4597]

As a former track cyclist you know when falling off rollers that there is very little momentum. It feels like you are over thinking this one. Top trackies have incredible muscle recruitment to change cadence, watts and speed. Derny training in small gears at high speed also help. It feels like a physiological adaption rather than any new mechanical inventions.

[@charlestoast4051]

Maybe you're underthinking it. Comparing rollers to an hydraulic pump seems like a real stretch. Rollers don't generate much resistance, even at super high cadence.

[@PeakTorque]

No, mozzy is right. He's talking about the sinusoidal load application when pumping against a fluid with no flywheel. It is sinusoidal and symmetric. Cycling on rollers is completely different, low resistance and a relatively high flywheel effect. Engineer and track cyclist here 😅

[@philipsweet480]

What you didn't comment on is the fact that the pressure changes in the accumulator, so not only is the crank rpm variation not smoothed by momentum, the actual resistance varies and you can't change gears. This begs for an active compensation system. You need a hydraulic motor on the shaft that senses accumulator pressure, instantaneous crank rpm, and crank torque; then regulates crank rpm to optimal values - basically the hydraulic equivalent of a solar MPP controller. This isn't a big ask for a tiny hydraulic device. Your car's steering assist is more complicated than that. If you just want to manage the torque ripple, use a cam and spring-loaded roller follower on the crank. This would be more appropriate than an egg gear for this application. Egg gears work 1. Where there is still some momentum smoothing that you want to amplify and 2. when you want to flatten the torque peak on the loose stuff. They don't work when there isn't any momentum. BTW, former competitive cyclist, mechanical engineer, and hydraulics guy here.

[@joshdonley2842]

An interesting take on the new rules. I appreciate the in depth explanations. One question i have though.. When are we getting more RS800 race or training footage?

[@MozzySails]

Ha, soon. I'm sat on a deep data dive from the Europeans in Garda which I think will be cool

[@jimiroket1]

Great video again. I am wondering as well as to the positioning of cyclors. Something that occurred to me is that in search of a lower Centre of Gravity, might we see cyclors seated in a position similar to f1 drivers with backs to hull and feet towards forward and centre. This option could be a great option to better COG as well as windage and at the same time ensuring less mechanical torque loss.

[@toastrecon]

Are there any rules about using the cyclors to generate electricity? I was just thinking - if you weren't allowed a flywheel, I'll bet you could use an inline alternator that used PID controls to "simulate" the feel of momentum. Use power output meters in the cranks to get realtime force data - hundreds of times each revolution - and then feed that back to the alternator to have it give the force feedback that would level it out. Use that energy to power the accumulator pump, or at least one of them.

[@chochmah]

Thats brilliant but probably at least against the spirit of the rules. You should work for F1!

[@MozzySails]

interesting, the rules are written as if there will be a physical transmission between power input and hydraulic pumps. With then the rotation rations between those two fixed. However, I can't see anywhere that it has to be a physical transmission. But it says the only stored energy in the hydraulic control circuit is the supplied accumulators from Cariboni.

[@toastrecon]

@@MozzySails I guess it comes down to what I really don’t know: the biomechanics and “sports medicine” of it - how do you optimize for performance? I’m guessing that there’s an optimal endurance load level for muscle composition, and I think people can have differences in the fast/slow twitch ratio. Since you only get to pick one “ratio”, you’d obviously want to focus on one that had offered the best power output. Also, totally agree that they should probably rig up some kind of simulator/trainer on shore so they can research and also tailor the conditioning regimen. Pretty cool!

[@johnandrews2853]

@@MozzySails Physical transmission will be way more efficient than electrical. The Electric route would waste perhaps 30% of the generated power. So you would need to know that the gain was at least that much. There is a cool alternative, use the crank position monitoring to control serve hydraulic valves, to de-load the cyclist through the dead zone. Hydraulic systems can easily have the speed of response needed to do that - there would be maybe 10% loss of energy to run the serve system, but that might be less than the gain?

[@MozzySails]

@@johnandrews2853 the pumps they must use are the HAWE type and RG (D6010). You can see the rule flash up @4:49 And view the pump online here downloads.hawe.com/6/0/D6010-en.pdf

[@GordonjSmith1]

Enlightening, as usual!

[@MozzySails]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@rogermcgaw7776]

I agree, its power/flat road speed vs steep hill torque- awesome commentary, always

[@RodNZl-Esports]

This America's cup is shaping up to be a good one.

[@briansurguine]

I use an oval chainring on my mountain bike, and I do think it may be useful in a cyclor application. On my MTB, I find the oval chainring lowers and broadens the torque curve compared to a conventional chainring. What this feels like in reality is more even application of power - for example, on a loose climb, an oval chainring might help me maintain traction where a conventional chainring would cause me to spin out and get stuck in the dead zones in the pedal stroke. I think a cyclor might gain some similar benefits in being able to apply more even (less spiky) power.

[@rodboese7041]

Thanks for your informative posts. Can you explain how the end plate works on a ac75

[@geoffoshannassy2816]

Hi Mozzy, great analysis as always, I get such great insight from your videos. MORE PLEASE! Unfortunately in this video I think you have incorrectly applied momentum as the explanation. Power = Force x Velocity Momentum = Mass x Velocity Therefore less force on the pedals is required at a higher velocity to produce an equivalent amount of power at a low velocity. This explain why riding up a hill producing 300w is more difficult, more force is required because the velocity is lower. This is also the reason why performance engines run at such high rpm. The advantage with pumping oil is that the system can be set up at the most efficient rpm. The riders then can train at a narrow rev range for maximum effectiveness and efficiency. Keep up the great videos. MORE PLEASE!

[@MozzySails]

Velocity here is pedal velocity. With gears you can do 90 rpm uphill and 90 rpm on the flat same rotaional velocity, same force, same power. But... the momentum of the bike changes how easy it is, physiologically to put thay force in to the pedals. Going up hill you decelerate fast due to less momentum, this means the input force needs to be much more consistent around the pedal stroke. Same power, same cadence, but your body is not as capable of pushing the pedals at 0 and 180 degrees so it feels harder as you need to use weaker muscle groups

[@deaningeveale7265]

Have ridden tandems for many years. Tried 90deg out of phase cranks a few times as well. Always reverted back to in phase though. Didn't like it mainly for the bike handling reasons you mentioned. Also a bit more awkward stopping and starting. Standing on hills very strange as you can't sway the bike as normal, it is basically locked vertical. You do notice the smoother power output when climbing seated but even then you notice the bike moves differently. Some people do like it but it wasn't for us. But in saying that none of these negatives would apply to a Cyclor, so the bonus of reduced dead spots could be worth it.

[@mozismobile]

FWIW recumbent trike tandems (there are *dozens* in the world!) often have the pedals out of phase. The speed record guys run in phase though, because getting a kick from the other rider when you're in your dead stroke feels weird and takes a lot of getting used to.

[@jomgelborn]

Very interesting. Thanks

[@johnandrews2853]

Good analysis, as ever! However, momentum is not from bike speed to rider - as there is a freewheel. The main effect on a bike is that when you don't push hard, the load is also rapidly very low, because there is almost no stretch in a chain / chainset system. However when grinding a pump, the load is dependent much more on the generated pressure than on the input power, which means that in the dead spots, the load is still pushing back against the legs. So, it can only be improved by increasing the momentum of the rotating masses, i.e. the chains, the cranks and probably most of all, the legs. As you say, they are not allowed flywheels. So, to overcome the dead spot, the cyclors will need a high cadence, then they need to bulk up those legs, wear very heavy shoes (good idea on a boat!!) and perhaps they also need nice sturdy heavy section steel cranks all together acting as a flywheel.

[@My567567567]

The obvious place to hide extra weight would be inside the riders legs. Sure they'll walk funny, but they won't be doing any walking while on the boat and the rule makers will have a tough job dreaming up a rule that bans people with heavy legs.

[@TheeuwesdeJong]

With the time races last i'm wondering when the Dutch, Swedish and Norwegian speedskating giants will show up. 12 - 15 minutes seems a perfect fit for maintained power output.

[@pjmazan]

That main control animation is fantastic. Please consider doing a little animation for the juniors.

[@MozzySails]

Thanks, I'll take a look at it! A lot of video ideas but short on time unfortunately

[@dcus55]

Damn you’re good, I started typing a question about cyclors using Chris Froom style oval chainrings and offsetting them in pairs, and you answered the question! What about a combination of separate arm, and leg grinders. I swear Ineos went through a comprehensive evaluation prior to the last Cup, and looked at orientation of the grinders.

[@cacwilliams]

Osometric rings is an option but that is dependent on a chain driven system. Another option would be to mimic a flywheel using a small accumulator as it is just an energy store. If you could change this to rotory energy to eliminate the pedal strike dead spots. This would replicate the momentum, no?

[@tracker1265]

THANKS for the insight into what is going on with the AC boats, I really enjoy your analysis. Hopefully you will do another video on the foil development. BUT. It does not seem very productive to have the cyclors generating "power" on these boats. If the boats have battery packs to control the foil arms why are they wasting the time and effort even having the "crew" generating the power just have batteries generating the hydraulic pressure and get rid more "crew" members. The current AC series is getting rid of sailors on the boats and having digital operators controlling the trimming of the sails and foils through computers. These boats are not relevant to the VAST majority of sailors and it is like watching cars race ... NO crew work on sail changes, no reaching sails, no spinnakers no challenge to the crew maneuvering and doing the maneuvers correctly, just people hunkered down in cockpits doing laps on a track..

[@marcbruggeman1851]

bikes on which you lay are lot more efficient then the ones you sit on.. would also help aerodynamics on the deck..

[@mozismobile]

It might be possible to design the pump so it has varying resistance around the pedal stroke. With a piston pump that's unavaoidable, and it might well turn out that matching the pedal down stroke to the pump compression stroke works really well. I don't really want to grind the pump spec sheets but gearing the pedals to match that setup.

[@johnandrews2853]

Multi piston pumps are being used, and they can't change the pumps. These piston pumps have perhaps 7 or 9 compression strokes per revolution of their crank - so matching those to cyclists' power strokes is not really going to be possible.

[@MozzySails]

@@johnandrews2853 yes , that's correct. The one design pump they must use is here: downloads.hawe.com/6/0/D6010-en.pdf

[@PeterBrand-ky8zw]

This may be true, but as explained in the video, in this AC they have to use a particular off-the-shelf pump.

[@PeakTorque]

Great video mate. Flywheels against the rules... there must be a way. Offset cranks would help but would still be lumpy unless you had about 20 riders! One way could be a highly flexible drive coupling. That's one way of taking out torque pulses from drive systems. Analogous when used in reverse.

[@MozzySails]

Good point which I hadn't thought of. They are limited on energy storage and an extreme interpretation would be that flex in the drive train is effectively stored energy. P.s. love your videos, been watching for years

[@PeakTorque]

@@MozzySails even the stiffest drive trains contain some strain energy! Cheers man I can't wait to see some racing, your channel is so underrated!

[@jameshortonau]

Would there be any benefit from having cyclors reclined? Physiologically, aerodynamically, centre of gravity?

[@MozzySails]

The cockpits need to be open from above, so they may find its a loss to have them reclined as they won't be able to cover as much deck. Physiologically it's easier with low momentum with gravity to help, so stood up.

[@Blockie113]

Could they use a device that *after* the specified pump would control the diversion of a cyclors energy between seperate high pressure low pressure chambers, which would in turn control the release of energy from these chambers into a single chamber to feed the main system? This could enable the resistance fed back to the cyclors pedalstroke to be tuned specifically for each cyclor and minimise or eliminate deadspots. At a guess the individual chambers may need to also have a controlled input from the main hydraulic system also to help keep resistance for the cyclor constant. Within the rules you referenced it seems that as long as this control was getting information on the cyclors pedal stroke with sensors AFTER the pump then it would be OK? I'm no engineer and haven't read the rules so there is likely alot more to it and I probably don't know what I'm talking about!

[@PeterBrand-ky8zw]

As someone like you that cycles as well as sails, I’ve wondered for decades why boats, especially ones with hydraulic systems, weren’t set up to use leg power. So I find it satisfying that logic and physics have finally overcome the traditionalists. You do know they could put an oval sprocket on the output end of the chain too, right? This and linking two cyclors with offset cranks would surely overcome the problem.

[@Loxalucie]

Regarding the interesting discussion about lack of momentum to carry the cyclor's pedal through top/bottom of stroke. A single cylinder hydraulic piston pump also has a drop in input torque when the piston reverses direction. Wonder if the piston stoke reversal could be designed to correspond to the top and bottom of the pedal stroke. Would have an effect similar to an elliptical chain ring?

[@MozzySails]

I am not sure it would be possible to do that with the one design pumps they have. The relevant rule pops up on screen @4:49 , but you can also view the pump they will be using here: downloads.hawe.com/6/0/D6010-en.pdf

[@edclark978]

I question whether they'll even have 'chainrings' to be o-symetric and have a direct drive system straight from the cranks. This would mean they can enclose it all and have it submerged in lubricant rather than messing around with chains.

[@jamesaron1967]

Nothing really wrong with chains. They are very efficient. Only thing I can think of that might be a 'negative' is total weight if many are used.

[@MozzySails]

Chains are surprisingly efficient though, especially with a perfect chain line and clean closed system. All the grinding pedestals uses chains. Not sure where I read it but the losses in the hydraulics are a decent amount greater. They could use oil bathed bevel gears I suppose

[@jamesaron1967]

@@MozzySails I read in the past on a cycling forum that chain drive systems such as what are used for cycling are highly efficient on the order of 98%, or thereabouts if memory serves. Even if it's considerably lower than that, because yachts are powered by the wind and not the grinders I think only very small gains can be achieved by switching to a theoretically more efficient system. There won't be a direct effect on the speed of the yacht unlike a more efficient drive-train would be in cycling performance.

[@striker4age]

If you ate allowed chains are there any rules on the size and material in the chain rings? A large and heavy one might store a chunk of energy.

[@davidcroxton8306]

Improving the fit of the shoes to stop movement in the shoe helps spin better circles. I believe human feet have traction control that movement in the shoe activates causing an involuntary power drop.

[@freeaccess5905]

It is obviously a very important source of power and teams like American Magic is partnering with innovative cycling component manufacturer SRAM.

[@dfontyn]

One more advantage is the cyclors have "free hands@ and can have additional tasks, flying, canting the mast shifting blast?

[@MozzySails]

very true, I should have mentioned that. INEOS did have some button on their handles last time, but it looked quite primitive compared to what is possible with arms completely free

[@dfontyn]

BTW I observe the "nervous" jittering main trimming, is it disrupting the sail flow attachment? Is it logical to after tack/jibe have the main and the jib work as a single foil operated by main trimmer? ( Like what seems to be the INEOS jib car?)

[@markcotgrove2708]

playing FIFA?

[@charlestoast4051]

Since the boats already have batteries, maybe the rules should allow generators mounted in the water, which could supply the bulk of the power needed. Then you could reduce the number of cyclors, reducing costs if nothing else, but making more of the crew pure, talented sailors. The crank offset and oval chainrings make sense - Chris Froome famously always rode oval chainrings.

[@floodo1]

Surely the teams have hydraulic setups for training. I’d think they would be especially realistic because the accumulators should be relatively consistent loads

[@arranlinton-smith1145]

Mozzy You didn't mention shorter crank lengths as I am sure that will easily be one of the best ways of smoothing out the uneven power curve. I used to use the shortest 165mm cranks, which were hard to obtain and being 5'6", this was the easiest was for me to increase my power output and cadence whilst reducing fatigue. I'm sure that this will be one of the first things which teams will be experimenting with!

[@mathiasbucher6102]

👍 I am down to 155mm now on my enduro mtb. Game changer.

[@SuperReasonable]

It may be worth looking at the rowing machine principle which employs both arms and legs together and produces much more power than just arms or legs individually. I understand it must be a rotational movement, but can that be employed with some clever design? How about hand pedals and feet pedals in a sitting position?

[@chochmah]

I didnt know the AC boats used stored battery power to actuate the arms and foils. I thought the batteryv power was generated by the grinders. Somehow that doesnt chime with the idea of sailing for me.

[@barryscott6222]

But it should chime. Because in a regular keel boat, you are not using your grinders to adjust any underwater controls, your grinders are purely to adjust the sails. This is exactly the same. Your grinders/cyclors power your sail adjustments - at the direction/control of the sail trimmer. The fact that a foiling boat has underwater control surfaces is neither here nor there. True it is another (new) addition to the control processes on the boat, but there is no intrinsic need for these systems to be managed in the same way as the sails are. A Moth is also a foiling boat, however the foils on that are mostly fixed, and the "flaps/ailerons" are what moves - but that isn't controlled or powered by the sailor either. There is a flappy paddle hanging off the front of the boat that automatically adjust the flight controls. So there are plenty of options for controlling your foils, none of which have to be done by a grinder. It is perfect consistent with "historical precedent" to have "grinders" for the sails - and some other mechanism for the underwater systems. In the A/C boats, that just happens to be battery/electric - and because it is the only realistic option.

[@DriverDad58]

Didn't really like the idea at first, but I'm sorta over it :) I think the more room the teams have to innovate the more interesting it's going to be! Just one more new thing AC has given us to enjoy, and that's always a good thing for the sport.

[@matthewstewart-gentle1981]

Is there a limit to how heavy a chain ring can be? Harder to get going but when going!!

[@MozzySails]

Not specifically, but there is a catch all rule for all components that they should not be unnecessarily heavy for their intended purpose. I am sure they couldachine their own extra stiff cranks and chain rings

[@hottunes007]

i think we should let the teams evolve the technology and not worry about how it might look, i mean the boats themselves is an art form that is not a top looker but sails great .

[@russelldesilva1560]

What sort of clips do they use for the pedals? I imagine racing pedals and shoes would be awkward on a boat. Do they just use a gym style sleeve to put your shoe into?

[@MozzySails]

In the previous cup, when they swapped sides they used MTB style clipless shoes with the cleat recessed. In this Cup the cyclors won't be changing sides, so they could just use full race shoes.

[@russelldesilva1560]

@@MozzySails Thanks for the info 👍

[@peterebel7899]

@@MozzySails Isn't using race shoes a possible safety concern in a boat during a capsize or crash?

[@mghemke]

i just wish they'd get rid of the batteries. people, wind, current. Also, I bet that you could figure out how to reduce the "dead-load" pressure using some flow component or bypass valve in the hydraulic system (or maybe a low pressure, quick cycling accumulator and a high pressure slow-cycling one).

[@ronanlavelle]

I totally understand your comment about road bikes having momentum and it therefore being easier to maintain a cadence, but why can't a static 'bike' not generate a momentum effect by having a weighted half wheel/cog (like old steam engines)? I admit that I have not read the AC protocol, so I don't know if this would be permitted or not

[@MozzySails]

I cover that at @12:30 they're basically not allowed any flywheels. They're also not allowed any components which are over sized to be heavy

[@Chip_in]

l see cyclors as a design progression and l'm definitely ok with them. lt wasn't long ago when they said you will never be able to foil on a yacht. lf the America's cup is really the formula one on water then design and innovation should continue to have some part to play ⛳

[@specialist211]

We have a tandem that we used to have the cranks set up out of phase. Definitely better for seated climbing but not great if you want to get out the saddle. Now we have our children on the back, rather than my wife, so we have in phase so they don't end up with 2 big a load in my dead spot.

[@tallteacher]

Interesting video. In my head phasing off the cranks seems like a no brainer. Just like pistons in an engine. I have no viewing on what limbs are used. However I think that the rules have strayed too far from what sailing should be. Firstly I think the shore charged battery for operating the foils feels completely wrong and arbitrary when sail trimming has to be powered by humans. Even worse are the off shore boats that need to run a big diesel engine to swing the keel during a tack or gybe. I also feel less strongly that storing energy created by the crew is wrong. Would it seem reasonable for a skiff to have a hydraulic energy store for the crew to charge by say pulling a line repeatedly,on the beat, so that the kite can be pulled up by the helm operating a button on the tiller?

[@grahamsnyder762]

I think there's a big tension in the sport here that's yet to be resolved - personally I'm really not a fan of this division of labour approach that means a small part of the crew is responsible for all of the mechanics of sailing and the majority are effectively just power plants, their skills being essentially divorced from the fact that they're on a boat at all. No doubt it is in fact the most efficient way to run a high-tech sailboat on human power alone (batteries aside) - but it feels like something of the soul of the sport has been lost in the process. You might as well just run all of the systems off batteries or whatever; it would be essentially the same, because the "whose crew can output the most power" competition is not really what it's about. I think I'd prefer to see a ruleset that incentivises the whole crew contributing to the mechanics of the sailing, trimming and so on. I don't know what the rules would have to look like to accomplish that though. Probably zero or minimal energy storage and probably also some way to limit centralisation of control. But it would definitely represent a shift away from the performance-maximisation development direction of the sport, instead optimising for less tangible and more aesthetic/philosophical goals

[@vsstdtbs3705]

In cricket they have a specialist wicket keeper, in gridiron a specialist quarter back, in rugby a specialist kicker. In those sports, it will not change. The good thing about the america's cup, is your ideas could happen someday.

[@MozzySails]

Thanks for taking the time to pen such a considered comment. One thing that should be considered is that when ETNZ introduced cyclors for AC35, one of the other big advantages was that it allowed Blair Tuke to both produce power AND control the flight height. So in theory, using legs should allow teams to involve the 'cyclors' more in the sailing. In practice, without sail changes there isn't the need for that many 'sailing' roles on the boat. The only way back, is similar to what you suggest, removing stored power and in addition require the cyclors to power only 1 or maybe 2 adjustments at once with the turns on the cranks being directly proportional to the control being adjusted. That would be a massive step backward in performance though.

[@grahamsnyder762]

​@@vsstdtbs3705 I take your point that many sports involve specialisation, but I can't think of another where a role is essentially reduced to harvesting power from a human as efficiently as possible. Even in rowing and cycling where power output represents a huge portion of the competition, there are other aspects of skill and technique at play. I think for the time being this is just how it's going to be, but as you say anything is possible in an AC rule. It only takes a winning team to decide they want a change of emphasis

[@grahamsnyder762]

​@@MozzySails Thanks for the excellent video and your reply. It's a good point about the ability of cyclors to multitask. Even then I feel like the shift to everything being remotely operated takes away somewhat from the spectacle, but maybe that's just a kind of nostalgia - for sure it's still amazing to watch, and clearly it's more efficient than having people running about on deck

[@ironmantwilliam]

Well if you look at the amount of power for hydraulics as a designer you think smarter🙀 as leg vs arms your legs will win it's not controversial it's smart move ETNZ thought outside the box when we won back the AC , every head designer had the chance to look at cyclors, just ETNZ pulled it off

[@JamesYoung61]

It will still be different but connecting as many of you cyclors together as you would a 2 stroke engine by offsetting the cranks and connecting it all to one pump should make it easier for the cyclors to reach power and serge power if and when needed. When you look at internal combustion engines the more cylinders they have the smaller the flywheel they have.

[@MozzySails]

that's an interesting comparison which I hadn't thought about

[@ThePaulbself]

Teaching your feet to "turn the circle" is a lot harder than letting your hands turn the circle. I have yet to master it on the bike.

[@WhatAboutTheBee]

Since the power to the foil arms is via battery, AC should ditch the concept of cyclors / grinders entirely. Sailing is, as you say, adjusting the sails. Not actuating a hydraulic pump.

[@jamesaron1967]

The cyclors could very well be the last iteration of grinders on AC yachts. Maybe there won't be any at all in the following or later ACs. The youth and woman's AC won't have them given the AC40 boats are purely electrical. I definitely see them being eliminated for all events at some point.

[@CarkeekW]

You may not be allowed a fly wheel but running lead weighted pedals could have the same effect with a lot less all up weight , id combine all cyclors together , look at the hydraulic pump resistance curve and bang the 4 cyclors at the best angle to fire like pistons to smooth out the load as best as possible. Next .. 😅😅 hehe

[@TheeuwesdeJong]

Isn't the whole battery driven foiling etc. more controversial? What about boats probably not even being able to sail from their home port to the regatta on their own keel? Controversial is exactly what innovation is.. and what AC is all about.. preferably decided in the courts. Love it or hate it but it's exciting enough to draw attention where otherwise sailing isn't news worthy.

[@plunge7429]

Could they use arms AND legs? Ie. Grinders using there arms to grind and there legs to pedal. Even more power ? Yes, they would tier more quickly but from what I understand, it’s all about burstS of gaining as much power as possible to provide power for the next manoeuvre as quickly as possible. Also, the faster they can do that the sooner they can have a rest before having to do it again for the next manoeuvre 😢

[@MozzySails]

Only allowed one input device per person, 4 in total. So I don't think they can use a battle bike type arrangement

[@garyr1522]

Really interesting piece as always, but unfortunately I have to confirm that I know nothing about tandem bikes and crank offset. Should have studied harder at school I know.

[@reetspetit]

Finding the ciclors pretty pointless. A facade really. May as well just power the whole boat electrically and be done with it. But then how many crew would be required? 2,3? Not a good look for PR. Some of these rules need a serious rethink :-(

[@MozzySails]

If you went with battery power I think it could sailed with 4 comfortably, as demonstrated by the AC40s which has this exact configuration (all battery power for sails and foils). I think you could get away with 2 or 3 at a push, when you bear in mind the AC40s are being sold as a boat any rich person can sail alongside some competent crew.

[@roberts.wilson1848]

Clearly the legs are far superior at producing energy than the arms with the cyclical motion. Walking is what feet do and the movement is similar to the revolving one on bicycles. But, I would be thinking of different body position, and which is the best for long term cycling motion. And i remember those bicycles that have the rider laying on their back, comfortably instead of the traditional bicycle position, which is tiresome on long runs. Having the cyclors be seated and pedal away and not standing.

[@ScottSummerill]

I really wish there were fewer rules. What was always special about the Cup was the inventive/design/technology/surprise aspect. With these rules and then the common spy network all this is muted. We've lost something.

[@vsstdtbs3705]

There is still a lot of flexibility. There might be a rule next cup, that all cyclors/grinders are above deck and can be fully seen. Slow boats down, but more visibility.

[@jamesaron1967]

I've been using oval chainrings for at least half a decade. I would never go back to round rings unless there wasn't a choice. For me, it has been a significant advantage but I'm far from an elite cyclist these cyclors obviously are. I'd be surprised if no one has experimented with ovals on a yacht. Couldn't hurt to try given how cheap and easy it is to swap oval rings onto a crank.

[@MozzySails]

I've tried them on my mountain bike where I obviously go a lot alower. I thought they were decent there, but not a game changer. Did you have problems with the chain dropping on the road bike?

[@jamesaron1967]

@@MozzySails On a mountain bike they are more noticeable. What oval chainrings do is smooth out the pedal circle. For cyclists who have a more uneven pedaling style, switching to ovals should be more effective, theoretically. Cyclists who have mastered 'spinning' may not see many benefits, but I have read some reviews by accomplished cyclists who initially harboured doubts and were impressed when they tried them. It's a very individual experience. In my opinion. oval chainrings cannot hurt unless they're so eccentric the transition may be too abrupt for some cyclists to adjust. I started on Rotor Q-rings and then moved on to the slightly more eccentric QXL. I also have Osymetric on my fat bike. To be honest, I do not like the odd Osymetric ring shape. I much prefer the standard oval shape, It's far smoother. Nevertheless, any oval is better than round for my tastes. Oval chainrings are a huge topic and cannot be covered here even remotely enough to do the subject justice.

[@jamesaron1967]

@@MozzySails Forgot to mention regarding chain drops, yes, it happened to me a lot. When I was testing a 1x setup, I still retained two oval chainrings but stopped using the front derailleur and rode only on the large ring. Due to the oval nature of the chainring shape and very significant chain deflection in extreme gear positions, the chain would occasionally fall off, either inboard our outboard. It wasn't as bad when I still rode a 2x drive-train but it occurred even then. The need to stop and reposition the chain up to three times a ride wasn't worth the advantages. I was arriving home with dark fingers from handling the chain after almost every ride. By the time I built a new bike, I was so frustrated with this problem that I purchased a 1x-specific chainring with wide/narrow teeth to prevent it from happening again. I quickly realized that I should have done it sooner. The chain drops were a thing of the past. This is why I strongly recommend a change to a 1x drive-train using ovals if one's terrain allows it, because you can then avail yourself of the wide/narrow-toothed oval rings.

[@iainurquhart7606]

If I wanted torque I'd make my cyclors Recumbent. Aero advantage too. But the UCI will come along and ban it. Zut Alors! Innovation Interdit!!

[@plunge7429]

The AC is all about pushing the cutting edge to gain more speed, cyclors is all about that.

[@peterdoherty876]

Not a chance they're running rim breaks...

[@MozzySails]

😄

[@fredbarnes196]

Forget about these large legged automatons. Figure out a way to overpower the boats and bleed off the excess energy into a storage device

[@victorlarkins2404]

Think to much😂

[@nickleach3570]

didn't team NZ perfect the cyclors at the america's cup? If the advantages are gone, maybe they are pretending to put other teams off?

[@MozzySails]

They were certainly the first team to implement it successfully. I show a clip from Simon Van Velthooven @10:48 who was an Olympic medallist track cyclist and joined ETNZ as a cyclor for their Cup victory in Bermuda. He comments that pedalling oil is very different from a bike and it took him a while to perfect the muscle recruitment. So ETNZ definitely have learnt this lesson... the question is, will the other teams have realised this? INEOS, Luna Rossa, Alinghi and Orient have no experience and may not be optimising their cyclor set up for this low momentum system.

[@renaykung3542]

If your legs were the same size as your arms your gonna have trouble walking. That's why they use cyclists. Way more power. Plus you can stay lower in the boat to reduce windage.

[@NklHfy]

Foiling boats with cyclists for the hydraulic winches... Don't get me wrong I love the America's Cup but this can hardly be called sailing anymore.

[@BRMCaptChaos]

I'm afraid i dont like the Cyclors role, it doesnt make you a good cyclist as watts/kg is the KPI, here you are just wattage meat for grinding to blow up a bag. Hardly active in terms of trimming the boat and therefore not skillful in the primary awareness of boat controls, although horrifically painful to do. Bigger the better? It is for non sailors, and these guys generally are talented folk.

[@ennioschnieder2977]

Interesting video as always! I recently saw this bycicle design (kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpbZYmuod9eBqJI&pp=ygUPd29ya3MgYnkgZGVzaWdu), which has a better distributed power output. But I doubt it‘ll work with the rules because of the linear motion. What‘s your opinion? (I also have some suggestions for improvement of this design if you consider it legal.)

[@MozzySails]

yes, I think that would fail the rotation rule. It's interesting, but I think based on a flawed assumption that you only get peak torque at 90 degrees. That assumed you only push down with the weight of gravity. Reality is whilst weight provides a significant counter force, the body can still put significant torque in around the stroke by pushing and pulling against saddle and bars to keep the input force at the tangent. At that point it becomes more of a physiology issue about what muscles are stronger and how quickly they fatigue. As I say in this video, it'a not perfect, as we evolved to run, not turn cranks, but with a bit of momentum carrying us through dead spots it's pretty damn good.

[@ennioschnieder2977]

@@MozzySails thanks for the reply, makes sense

[@Blendedwing]

Sorry. You got it all wrong. You should have asked a race cyclor or his trainer

[@MozzySails]

fast forward to @11:47 for view of race cyclor (America's Cup Winner) and track cyclist (Olympic midlist) Simon Van Velthooven

[@Blendedwing]

I was racing 50 years ago, the first Thing I learn was how to pedal "round" strokes. Pulling up, pushing forward, pushing down, pushing back. This requires a high rotation, low load, approach. However delivers the maximum output. Why? Because the limit is given by the amount of oxigen that can be fed by the lungs to the muscles.

[@Blendedwing]

Yes, in a sprint peak power can be delivered by jumoing on the pedals and pushing, but only for a few seconds. Recharging a battery is not a sprint, hence the round pedaling is the more appropriate.

[@MozzySails]

@@Blendedwing okay, well I guess I disagree. Any attempt to over recruit on the lift beyond unweighted the pedal never felt efficient as those muscle groups just aren't evolved for that. There's plentry of studies on pedaling efficiency that show this and I found the same after using a power meter for many years.

[@MozzySails]

@@Blendedwing try watching this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4KQaqpmaZ2HiZI or this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3uxYXqjmdanes0 P.s. i raced for about 5 years to a middling level. And I was very data driven.

[@jaysparc]

I find your videos fascinating, but I think you're incorrect in your analysis of cycling. On the flats, your major resistive force is the wind. Going up your resistive force is gravity. Everything else is baloney and BS. Want to get faster, spend a lot of time climbing (that's why all pro cyclists don't even bother riding flats) it's all about going up.

[@dominicbritt]

You’re overthinking this - legs are stronger than arms. They don’t train on the road.

[@MozzySails]

Yes, everyone agrees legs are stronger than arms. The question is, if all teams are using legs, which is what we expect, how do they further optimise performance. And some of the teams are definitely training on the road, and there is footage of INEOS Britannia training in this video on the road.

[@peterrose8944]

Another great video Mozzy but it introduces the concept of Why? Why would we destroy the great sport of sailing with all this bullshit technology? The AC75 is a mad scientist's wet dream. We need a sailor's wet dream.

[@jamesaron1967]

What do you suggest should be done?

[@henryhester1897]

Not a good visual

[@chrisauld7630]

I am just hanging out for a @mozzysails and @hambini double episode somehow….

[@MozzySails]

I love hambini stuff. His bottom brackets were awesome