Correcting Gavin Ortlund On Biblical Slavery! My Response To His Critiques

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Happy Wednesday! Always a topic i care deeply about out and am eager to share more.

[@talkwith_Lina]

Reminder that the US still utilizes slave labor; most egregiously in the form of prison labor, most ubiquitously in the form of wage labor. Yes, wage slavery is wrong.

[@PurpleHeart99]

Great video, as always. You helped make my Wednesday better. The slavery apologetics always frustrate me. They say god had to regulate slavery but god had no problem commanding other things to stop. For example, in Leviticus, Aaron's sons were incinerated for making a mistake with the ritual at the altar. God could have incinerated slave owners or just ordered it to cease. The old testament just proves how the archeological discoveries showing yahweh to be a war god were absolutely true. Yahweh was all about crushing and enslaving other nations around the Israelites. He was all about pillaging and dominating. Nothing like an all loving god would be. Yahweh wasn't even described as all powerful when he was still a part of pantheism. Yet, if you tell Christians any of this, they say you are a liar or your heart is hardened and you cannot understand until you let the holy spirit takes over. I was a believer and thought I had the spirit in me yet there were issues in the bible that I just skipped over to hang onto the faith. Christians told me that we cannot sit in god's seat and say what is right. That his ways are higher and who are we to judge him. Those are all tactics to get people to remain in the cult and not think critically. They say not to worry about researching anything outside of the bible. Of course. When you do, you find out the origins of the religion and the faith falls apart. Apologists try so hard to spin the narrative that yahweh is great but it's clear they are just utilizing mental gymnastics.

[@Johnmhatheist]

I have a video idea for you. Many conservative christians like to say that God is pro-life and hates abortion. As atheists who know our Bible better than most Christians, we know that isn't the case. I don't believe in the flood story due to a lack of empirical scientific evidence, but let's say that it really happened. Millions of babies died, and pregnant women drowned in that flood. In Numbers 5:11-22, if a man just suspects, without any evidence, that his wife cheated on him and is carrying another man's child and doesn't want to raise that child since he without any actual evidence believes the child isn't his, that baby is to be aborted by drinking a bitter liquid. That's literally an abortion. In Numbers 16:27-33 Korah, those who were loyal to him, and all of their families were killed because God opened the earth to swallow them whole. In several instances, such as in the 10th plague of Egypt where God killed every firstborn, which also included children and infants, 1 Samuel 15 where God commands Saul to have the Israelites kill every man, woman, child, infant, and even every animal that belonged to the Amelekites, throughout the book of Joshua, God commanded the israelites to commit mass genocide against several nations killing all of their men, women, children, and infants, and to take all of their plunder for the Lord as if he needed silver and gold. I also find it funny that there's an entire asteroid named Psyche 16 between Mars and Jupiter that has estimatedly 700 quintilion US dollars worth of gold on it. A quintillion is a million times a trillion. Seven hundred quintillion has a 7 followed by 20 zeros. If you put all of those numbers together, that is $700,000,000,000,000,000,000 worth of gold on an asteroid that according to the Bible, because God is the creator of all things, God created, but no, he needs more gold from people the israelites slaughter. That asteroid could give everyone on earth 100 billion dollars each. And that's just in gold on an asteroid. God also commanded for Achan and all of his family, including his children, to be killed in Joshua chapter 7 for stealing plunder that belonged to the Lord. In 2 Samuel 12-14, after David and Bathsheba committed adultery together, God decided to punish the innocent baby that he himself formed in Bathsheba's womb after their adultery, I say the baby that God formed in the womb because according to Jeremiah 1:5, even though a man plants his sperm to fertilze a woman's egg, the one who really forms the baby is God because why the hell not. God not only punished that baby, he tortured that innocent baby who had no fault in what they did. God didn't just kill that baby. That baby died of a slow and painful death that it didn't deserve. Passages like 2 Kings 8:12 and Isaiah 13:18 also show that God isn't pro-life either. So, remind me again how God is pro-life, dear Christian.

[@talkwith_Lina]

@@PurpleHeart99 And the apologists know all this, they're professional liars. The grift is explicitly for the intention of maintaining US Imperialism TODAY.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Already done my firend, kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3Kxg6KsaN2gkJosi=oHbQxNjJyq8pd9Xi@@Johnmhatheist

[@shiroamakusa8075]

Christians in the 19th century: "Slavery is a God-given right and we will go to war over it!" Christians in the 21st century: "Slavery was never advocated or approved of by God, he had to respect the local customs of the time!" The ever-unchanging and absolute objective morality of the lord-creator of the universe, everyone!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Nailed it here!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

i could not have been more clear that I am not basing the character of god off of flawed humans. I am basing it off his very words and allowances!@maximgruner

[@nickbrasing8786]

@maximgruner "All it tells us is that God allowed for us to do something bad." Except God never told us it was bad. That's the part your missing. If He had I wouldn't be here commenting. He did that for 613 other things, but not slavery? Why not? To use your child analogy. It's like telling your 14 year old that when they have sex that they should use a condom. But never once telling them you didn't want them to have sex at that age. What do you think the child is going to think? Food for thought

[@thedude0000]

I go back even further regarding the Christian history. Over 1800+ years of Christians & their institutions participating in slavery.

[@suicune2001]

@maximgruner Christians don't even know what they believe. They literally believe whatever they want regardless of evidence or what the bible says. Bible says women are slaves to men. Bible says rape, murder, slavery, and physical abuse are NOT sins and Yahweh even COMMANDS those things at various times. But don't you dare wear mixed fabrics or else it's straight to hell with you. I have reminded Christians when they bash on being gay that Yahweh considers EVERY sin to be equal and worthy of DEATH. I also remind them that having a single sin on your soul when you die will condemn you to hell. ONE. Any time I ask a Christian, "What are the rules? If I do ABC then I'll definitely get into heaven and if I do XYZ then I will definitely go hell. If sinning is what gets you into hell the name me all the things considered a sin and where you find that in the bible." and so far no one has taken me up on that even though it's literally supposed to be the most important thing in their entire life. And yet they don't know anything about it. Also, if a parent lets their child beat and bully other children, that's not the parent letting their child make "mistakes." That's the parent not parenting.

[@sordidknifeparty]

He claims that biblical slavery wasn't as brutal as the Atlantic slave trade, and yet it was brutal enough that God felt the need to make a law that said precisely how hard you could beat them before you got in trouble, and the answer to how hard was " practically to death, but not quite."

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly! Also lets not forget how much this god hated when slavery was happening to his own people in Egypt

[@JasonHenderson]

And do we have any evidence that these laws were ever enforced? It looks pretty on paper.

[@avishevin3353]

@@MindShift-Brandon He didn't hate it. He foretold it. He knew it would happen and encouraged Jacob to go to Egypt so that it _would_ happen.

[@davidmgilbreath]

Those laws sound more like common-sense-of-the-time, about not damaging property beyond use. 😒

[@MindShift-Brandon]

@@avishevin3353 Exodus 3:7-8: "Then the Lord said, 'I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings, and I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land or Exodus 2:23-25: "During those many days the king of Egypt died, and the people of Israel groaned because of their slavery and cried out for help. Their cry for rescue from slavery came up to God. And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. God saw the people of Israel And theres plenty more. Why would god needed to "rescue" them if it wasnt bad. these excuses are so weird

[@freezerburn421]

Must be truly an honor to show up beside Alex O’Connor in a takedown thumbnail! Congrats man, you’ve made it

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I didnt hate it! Lol. Thank you very much

[@alexanderbean7737]

Not to mention Sam Harris! Guy's been around forever, wrote a multitude of books, and was in the four horsemen doc with Dawkins and Hitchens! Rarified air man, and we'll deserved

[@digitalscale76]

okay lets say sam harris first, then alex and then RR

[@Erik-hi]

God was somehow able to tell us not to eat shellfish and wear mixed fabrics, but he couldn't tell us not to enslave each other.

[@Isaac-hm6ih]

Not just that, he allegedly said "enslave those people over there. Here's how you're to do it."

[@Chuck-se5hh]

Well said. What a stupid bastard the God of the Bible is.

[@Herschel1738]

Hah! That's the small stuff! He told them to cut off the end of their dicks in a time without anesthesia and antibiotics. And they did it. He even told them not to muzzle an ox treading grain. But He couldn't tell them not to own people like animals. or to treat them better than they treated their animals.

[@manatwilight8434]

Not just don’t do it. Basically gave them a here’s how I expect you to do it. And then Jesus comes along, and the best we get is indifference. So much so, Christians used the Bible to justify it for thousands of years. Like really, you can really be like tattoos are bad, slavery? Meh…

[@a.b.2405]

This right here!!

[@kalabash72]

My favorite apologist excuse is that slavery was written in the context of the time period. 🤦‍♂️ A powerful God couldn't simply put something in the 10 commandments about not owning another person. Instead, we get not worshipping false idols.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Right! I cover this exactly at the end. It makes it very clear.

[@shiroamakusa8075]

I also like that the omnipotent creator of the universe whose word is the absolute law is somehow bound to respect the overall attitudes of the time. So if God were to hand down commandments today, he'd be for unisex bathrooms and gay marriage?

[@triplewave5214]

Somehow didn’t even try to convince the very next generation to change their ways. Gotta wait hundreds of years for your message to go into effect.

[@FLATearthGARY]

…and keeping the sabbath!

[@TestMeatDollSteak]

I call it “How to Make God’s Objective Morality Indistinguishable From Subjective Morality 101”

[@ZenWithKen]

'It's a different kind of slavery altogether.' Is a different kind of rape okay? A different kind of murder? This is the mindset you get when you sell you humanity to a god; when you put an ideology ahead of people. The need to keep a holy book pure despite the hate it contains.

[@rizdekd3912]

" Is a different kind of rape okay? " And in fact when the Bible speaks of rape it IS indeed talking about a different kind of rape than the violent kind we all abhor today or the kind where an underage person is taken advantage. In some cases, in the OT, after a man has raped a woman he gets to marry her because she becomes damaged goods.. So instead of just saying a raped woman isn't damaged, God goes along with the backward custom. In other cases, both the rapist and the victim may have to be stoned...ie if she didn't cry out loudly enough. In other cases he just has to pay the father something because, again, she's no damaged good and can't be married off. No one can use the Bible to elicit the strength of emotion we feel toward and about rape today. I don't find anywhere that the Bible specifically says rape is wrong. It talks about punishment fro rape, but the punishment for rape is no worse than the punishment for picking up sticks on the sabbath or what the elders do to a disobedient son.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Precisely, too bad your point is proven out all too real as they do justify different types of rapes and murder also.

[@piperdragon3200]

I think many Christians don't really know how rape is handled in the Bible. I think I was in Bible College before I got a basic understanding, and even older before I got the nuances. It's another area, like slavery, where the god of the Bible doesn't come off looking very just, loving, or particularly good.

[@computationaltheist7267]

How does slavery equal to rape? Where's the argument?

[@ZenWithKen]

@@computationaltheist7267 Both violate the wellbeing of the person. I'm surprised I have to point this out.

[@Johnmhatheist]

I remember when I was a Christian, and I defended atrocious actions such as biblical slavery trying to downplay it and make it seem less harsh than what it really was. I even tried to make God anti-slavery. I also tried to make God seem so loving and anti-genocide. Now that I'm free from the chains of religion, I no longer have to do that.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Same! I had my whole sermon down. Utilizing verses and all. But its simply not true.

[@davidmgilbreath]

The truth shall set you free! 😁

[@Johnmhatheist]

@@davidmgilbreath Well, there was a serial killer who told the truth and confessed to all of his crimes. They gave him the electric chair.

[@oldschoolman1444]

​@@JohnmhatheistI am not for capital punishment, but you could say he is free now.

[@Johnmhatheist]

@@MindShift-Brandon Hey, Brandon. I wrote you an email with a video suggestion. I sent it as an email since youtube was removing my comment.

[@deadweaselsteve3262]

The four steps of atrocity denial: 1) It didn't happen. 2) OK, it happened, but it wasn't all that bad. 3) OK, it was somewhat bad, but it was an unfortunate necessity. 4) The bastards had it coming.

[@scienceexplains302]

I’m going to steal this, but I’ll site you, @deadWeaselsteve3262.

[@Leucanthema]

So you can't steal them, you just have to buy them from someone who stole them for you and all is peachy. Noted.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Spot on ha. Whats worse is we actually see this backwards justification played out in judges.

[@avishevin3353]

It's not even that. The prohibition against kidnapping and selling into slavery only applied to fellow Israelites.

[@computationaltheist7267]

How exactly is an ancient Israelite meant to stop the slave trade of other nations?

[@avishevin1976]

@@computationaltheist7267 Who exactly suggested they should have?

[@Leucanthema]

@@computationaltheist7267 it is not about solving it, it is about bible not only alowing to participate, but even endorsing it. I really don't understand how you came up with this response.

[@jenna2431]

Any conversation scaling degrees of slavery as some type of defense is grotesque.

[@davidmgilbreath]

The Bible pretty much treats all prohibitions that way.

[@jonathanyoung8109]

The fact that any of this is in the Bible to begin with proves it’s absolutely man-made.

[@skepticsinister]

@@jonathanyoung8109 yes. There is NO god of ANY holy book. ALL gods are strictly human manufactured fiction.

[@iaminevitable_]

@@jonathanyoung8109🎯🎯🎯🎯

[@PhilP5924]

Fr like how are you actually gonna convince yourself that some slavery is "good" and some is "bad"??????

[@BluStarGalaxy]

His comment, "It's not so sinister, people try to make it worse than it is." I have read several books on slavery in the antebellum South and have seen slaveholders try to make their actions as righteous and harmless as they can. Things like, "The slaves were treated as nice as possible, they were like children, like one of the family. They did work and we compensated them by giving them clothes and a roof over their heads. We beat them if they were lazy or got a bit lippy but that was for their own good. By having them as slaves we were actually doing them a service. They couldn't survive on their own and we were helping them by owning them and teaching them civilized ways." There were laws in the South that prevented excessive beating and killing of slaves but these laws were rarely enforced. So the OT having laws about the mistreatment of slaves are only as good if the people followed them. If history is a guide, they turned the other way when abuses took place. Some masters in the South allowed the slaves to earn money to eventually free themselves but in a lot of cases the masters sold them right before they got the necessary amount. Absolutely sickening.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So very true. I feel like many people who say these things are not the same have very little understanding of American slavery also

[@jenna2431]

Or how about "How else would they hear the gospel if we didn't enslave them?" (shudders)

[@BluStarGalaxy]

@@jenna2431 I have heard that argument too. Chills the heart. They justified it by saying that the slaves will be beaten and owned in this life but would be free in heaven so it was totally fine. Plus it was the slaveholder that lead them to salvation so they should actually be thanked.

[@BluStarGalaxy]

​@MindShift-Brandon Exactly Brandon. The slaveholders of the South probably thought their form of slavery was a more refined version of what the Bible taught. God's ancient blessing of slavery applied to the modern age. People need to learn history, because it tends to repeat itself.

[@johntiggleman4686]

@BlueStarGalaxyy I remember when the TV mini-series "Roots" was first televised, one of the male slaves escaped, but was caught and brought back His owner cut off half of one of his feet to make it harder to escape and as punishment. So yeah, he didn't get beaten to death, but he could have bled to death. And since I watched the whole series only once, I may have a few details wrong. But cutting off part of a foot?Dayum.

[@charleswhite9242]

No matter how they wrap it up. At the end of the day they are defending and justifying slavery. ‘It wasn’t the same scale are transatlantic slavery’ just imaging that coming out of your mouth and thinking you are a good human being. Edit. It gets worse, ‘it’s not so sinister, people try and make this worse than it is’ 🤮

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yup! Its so sad to see otherwise good people get so twisted by this religion that they can say these things.

[@glenliesegang233]

We in the Free World are a melting pot. Yet, France and other countries who would wish to maintain their national identify will lose it if Islamic foreigners outbreed the Frence. Israel was in such a position. How would you end the existential threat an enemy you defeated would pose to your society? How would you avoid society wide illnesses carried in your enemy ( congenitally transmitted STDs) How would you avoid the anti-culture and anti-tradition influences of these foreign people? Sleeper cells within your society of an enemy sworn to avenge the deaths war caused, even if they were the aggressors?

[@ertymexx]

Imagine using the same login in any other context. "Yeah, sure, Garry IS a child molestor, but he is gentle and gives them candy and toys, not like Harry who just outright rapes them!" Eh, right, much better... 😮‍💨

[@iluvtacos1231]

It's so funny to me that I, as an atheist with no objective standard of morality, can say "slavery in any and every instance is wrong and I oppose it", while a Christian has to tap dance around and make excuses for why it was fine in the Bible. None of them would willingly submit themselves to this system today.

[@nyakabb2472]

But on what basis do you say it's wrong

[@iluvtacos1231]

@@nyakabb2472 The morality written on my heart by God

[@nyakabb2472]

@@iluvtacos1231 wow a god that doesn't exist yet writes morality on people's hearts.Such amazing reason.

[@iluvtacos1231]

@@nyakabb2472 The basis of I don't want to be enslaved. And since I have empathy, I don't want others to be enslaved. Or we could go with slavery causes more harm than benefit, so it's wrong.

[@absolute-xero7502]

​@@nyakabb2472You can't decipher right from wrong unless some mythical being tells you so?

[@michaelsbeverly]

But, but, but, William Lane Craig says it was a great anti-poverty program and he thinks, "in some ways" it was much better than what we have today, so poor people in debt could have more self-respect by being forced to work off their debt. You can't make this stuff up.

[@chameleonx9253]

Yeah, because forcing people in abject poverty who can't even afford to feed their family to sell themselves into slavery to survive is TOTALLY a better system than government handouts. What, you think Jesus is some kind of COMMUNIST?!

[@dougt7580]

Him saying crap like that and his takes on "white Christian savior colonialism" is why I don't buy his folksy old grandpa shtick. Dude holds some truly demented views.

[@jeffreylehman1159]

It also conflates chattel slavery with debt slavery, two different forms of slavery affecting two different populations. But, yeah.

[@mattf5935]

WLC pretends that chattel slavery doesn’t exist in the Bible and ignores that if Jew gets married and has a child while an indentured servant his wife and child are slaves for life regardless and the Jew has to choose between leaving them or joining them as a slave for life. When you ignore all of that, the idea of allowing people to enter into limited service to pay off debts isn’t good but it isn’t nearly as bad as chattel slavery. All it requires is managing your cognitive dissonance and taking the Bible in a cafeteria style where you pick the parts you like and ignore the rest.

[@michaelsbeverly]

@@jeffreylehman1159 This is the one I don't get, how do Christians let him get away with this? He lies, straight up lies, and it seems nobody on his side says, "wait a second, okay, some debt slaves get off after seven years, but let's put them aside for a moment and talk about the other slaves, you know, the ones you pretend don't exist."

[@teddrickmilsap5994]

😢The silliest thing of all to me is thinking that if a slave master killed a slave that there was some court at the time that was really going to give a damn. Chances are they'd bury them in the yard and say they got kicked by a mule.

[@jonathanyoung8109]

I’m sure they made up any story to justify injuring or killing their slaves. Who would they believe?

[@glenliesegang233]

The Hebrews lived by strict codes and accepted rightful penalties under their laws. The societywas so tight knit you could not get away with much without your neighbor letting some authority know.

[@jeffreylehman1159]

@@glenliesegang233Oh, pull the other one. Like you know anything about historical behavior from 3,000 years ago. It’s also really the only place where the punishment for an offense isn’t specified, which leads me to believe that you would not really be punished.

[@jaclo3112]

@glenliesegang233 nothing you said is true. Even the bible proves you wrong with the countless descriptions of the hebrew people being punished for NOT obeying their strict rules. What I would love to know is how you come up with such absolutely falsifiable bullshite?

[@ertymexx]

@@glenliesegang233 really. So when god punished them for the umfteenth time for being unlawful and sinful, that was what... for drunk driving?

[@studiosandi]

Actually he said it was a prohibition against stealing a man. He didn't say anything about stealing a child or a woman. If they're going to take it literally in some places, they have to take it literally in all places.

[@lifefindsaway7875]

If we looked at the Hebrew wording used, and other contexts where that phrase was used. We could say whether it’s specifically men or mankind in general. I’m not going to bother doing that, so I’m not going say either interpretation is incorrect

[@luminous_1]

That's as braindead a take as I've ever seen. "If one thing is literal, it all has to be". I'll make sure to notify all literature and poetry academics that they are wrong and this random dude on KZbin is correct.

[@TimoRutanen]

@@luminous_1What he means is that when you say 'this book is the word of god', you can't then start adding 'but this part really isn't because it's horrid' later.

[@luminous_1]

@@TimoRutanen If that's true they should look into articulating their thoughts better. Even so, this isn't how theists think. They don't just go "ah this looks bad, it's metaphorical now." You can read passages and clearly tell they're metaphor, or hyperbole, or just simply poetic. The fact that people took it literally 1,000 years ago when they didn't know better doesn't disprove the underlying message.

[@TimoRutanen]

@@luminous_1I could argue that it is rather guaranteed that some do exactly that. Not everyone of course, the book is so famous that over the last 2000 years, it's been interpreted over and over so many ways. It's a bit of a disconnect to me, when the act of interpreting it is already strange if you also claim it's the 'word of the infallible god'. Which is it? Infallible or does everyone get to interpret it how they want.

[@Lorn_Forge]

Thanks for all that you do Brandon, deconversion has been a tough journey but your content makes it that little bit easier for me.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So happy to hear it and thanks for the support!

[@maggienewton8518]

I like your analogy about the nice, helpful neighbor who is also a pedophile. Such a clear, concise way of addressing "sure, there are some harsh things about this god/this religion, but look at all the good it does!"

[@ertymexx]

it also hits the ball considering all those christian priests out there.

[@festeringboils3205]

If you knock out a slaves eye and then release him, that slave is screwed in the ancient world. He gets his freedom, but not the provisions. What is the half-blind freed slave supposed to do now? This law can easily be seen as benefiting the slaveowner, since this slaves’ productivity would be severely limited. Sure, the slaveowner would lose his property, but it would be less of a financial hit than if he kept his unproductive damaged slave as a liability, still needing to provide him with room and board and food. This whole subject continues to make me sick and I hate that otherwise good people defend the slavery of the Bible. Brandon please keep putting the truth out there in the respectful way that you do, and hopefully more people will see though these apologists’ tactics

[@ryanerickson3063]

No matter the apology they are still defending slavery.

[@magepunk2376]

Exactly. It’s the 21st century and we still have Christians defending slavery. Pretty gross.

[@njhoepner]

I am so sick and tired of christian excusegetics over slavery. I'm glad you're not letting them get away with their BS.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks! Sorry i missed this, man!

[@kamilgregor]

Kidnapping was illegal in antebellum South. Guess there was no slavery then

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly!

[@nickbrasing8786]

@@MindShift-Brandon So was killing your slave. Death penalty if you did. Sound familiar?

[@CafeteriaCatholic]

"All men are created equal" case closed.

[@nickbrasing8786]

@@CafeteriaCatholic What case is closed?

[@CafeteriaCatholic]

@@nickbrasing8786If we found the sentence "All men are created equal" in the bible, apologists would argue that there can't be slavery. And yet we know that the sentence in the DoI didn't protect blacks from beeing enslaved.

[@dasbus9834]

Remember when God realized that theft would always be a thing, so he set up some rules to at least regulate it somewhat and lessen the impact on victims? Yeah me neither.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Perfect!

[@paulgemme6056]

@@MindShift-Brandon The power of the resurrection is evidence that God/Jesus Christ is who he says he is. Jesus Christ is risen indeed! Jesus Christ is the King of Glory! The only name by which a man can be saved. Glory to his name forever and forever. Nothing but the blood of Christ Jesus. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

[@dakotabeeson]

@@paulgemme6056You don’t understand the definition of “evidence” do you?

[@paulgemme6056]

@@dakotabeeson You don't know the power of God/Jesus Christ. So sad! Believe (have faith). No religion needed. Just admit you are a sinner and accept the free gift of forgiveness/pardon. Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The only reason a soul goes to hell is unbelief. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. The truth will set you free.

[@dakotabeeson]

@@paulgemme6056 I am not going to just believe some utter nonsense because an old book says so

[@danhoff4401]

I figured you would respond to this. I had some fun in the comments section on Ortlands video. At least 4 people outright defending the concept of "righteous slave ownership" to quote one. Seth Andrews has a talk called "Christianity made me talk like an idiot" its extra relevant to this topic. Should be fun to see him toe himself in knots about Numbers 31 in a few weeks.

[@mbs8001]

Reading about slavery in the Bible, and contrasting that with what apologist were saying about it, showed me how dishonest/deluded they were willing to be. Super helpful with getting out of Christianity.

[@jaclo3112]

"Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" Apologists are classic conmen.

[@jasonhighlander]

Not only was the Bible cool with slavery, it gives detailed instructions and guidance regarding it. Mind blowing.

[@jenna2431]

All the feckin' book had to say was "Don't keep slaves." But evidently God was more exercised over that whole mixed fabrics disaster.

[@MrDalisclock]

Also that picking up sticks on the sabbath was worthy of being stoned but not keeping slaves for some reason

[@pineapplepenumbra]

To be fair, polycotton shirts are an abomination.

[@Chuck-se5hh]

Well said. The God of the Bible is a pathetic disgusting character, he deserves a good kick in the ass.

[@lewisrogers9263]

good point

[@wargriffin5]

"In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you." -Matthew 7:12 - There, I found it for you. 😉

[@81caspen]

14:32 This kind of thing baffles me. Let’s suppose Brandon were wrong about his specific points and that the slavery prescribed in the Bible was “not quite as bad” as Brandon describes. Like, are we really sitting around investing in a debate about what kind of slavery is even relatively good? What are we even arguing at this point? I’m reminded of an anecdote - I wish I could remember from where - of an antebellum person or character (this might be from fiction) about to depart a plantation he was visiting and engaging a slave in a surprisingly frank talk about this slave’s circumstances. The visitor (I want to say he’s a doctor?) points out all the ways in which the slave’s life is easier and better than if he were compelled to scrape out a living from the cruel world, and how nicely the masters here treat him. He asks, “Given all this, what do you see as so terrible about slavery?” To which the man responds, “Would you want to be a slave?” It’s slavery. Why isn’t that in itself the end of the conversation?

[@jaflenbond7854]

Nothing has changed, just the same... Satan the Devil is still an arrogant, cruel, hateful, and merciless hater and mocker of the Creator. the UNBIBLICAL teachings and doctrines of all Religions about "Trinity", "hellfire", "Armageddon", "immortality of the souls", "rapture", "afterlife", and "reincarnation" are still worthless and useless, nothing but LIES and foolishness of the enemies of Jesus Christ and only worthless arrogant, cruel, hateful, and merciless fools are proud of their worthless Atheism but while still not the right and proper time.... all Atheists, Christians, LIARS, arrogant, cruel, hateful, and merciless persons on earth will continue to be offended and angered by the TRUTH that the "KINGDOM of GOD" is still the Creator's Rulership through Jesus Christ that will stop and put an end to all the Satanic arrogance, hatred, hypocrisies, unkindness, ungratefulness, treacheries, cruelties, false claims and teachings, lies, and deceits of Satan's Atheism, Christianism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, and all forms of Religious Fanaticism and ensures planet Earth is safe, secure, and peaceful for all lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons who will definitely be honored and rewarded by the loving, kind, and merciful Creator with ETERNAL LIFE and existence without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and death on a secure Earth without arrogant, cruel, hateful and merciless persons, without liars, slanderers, perverts, traitors, and murderers. The "RESURRECTION of the DEAD" is still the Creator's guarantee that all lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons on earth who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Job, Ruth, Naomi, King David, Jesus Christ's Followers and disciples, and many others will all be RESURRECTED back to life in the right and proper time so they can happily, abundantly, and peacefully live and exist on earth forever as subjects and citizens of the "KINGDOM of GOD" and fully enjoy the eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings of the Creator and his Christ for eternity under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as the Creator's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth.

[@njhoepner]

The argument is that the apologists claiming to represent the author of perfect eternal objective morality need to make excuses for something any rational human being knows is wrong, but apparently never bothered their "god."

[@greenbeanmachine9002]

Always excited for a new video, on schedule or not! Thanks for quick responses, and I’m glad you’re finally getting some responses and traction outside of your channel alone (Thinking of your video with Matt Dillahunty) Great to see your response to these talking points too!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Very kind. Thank you!

[@emilyevans6359]

saving this to my watch later so i can fully absorb it once i get off work! thanks for the video; what a nice surprise to see you on a Wednesday! :)

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks, Emily! Appreciate that

[@lifefindsaway7875]

I hope this leads to a decent exchange with the apologists. Maybe even a conversation! Kudos for giving credit where it’s due and saying where he was graceful and polite. I hope this can stay civil on all sides

[@jasonhighlander]

"you may not rule over your fellow Israelite's ruthlessly" - totally cool to ruthlessly rule over others though.

[@Chuck-se5hh]

Well said. The God of the Bible is a horrible mixed-up pompous sadistic screwball.

[@jaflenbond7854]

@@Chuck-se5hh What is the worth, value, and importance of the "God of the Bible" to Atheists and Theists? ANSWER - Nothing, All Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and fanatics of all kinds of Religions who are all united in mocking and degrading the Creator as worthless, useless, and undeserving to be honored and respected as the True and Sovereign God in their willful opposition and defiance of what's written in the BIBLE, in John 17: 3 will definitely bring themselves nothing but their own dishonor, disgrace, downfall, and ETERNAL DEATHS, worthless and useless dusts on earth forever, never to be seen and heard ever again on the face of the earth. What is the worth, value, and importance of human beings to the Creator? ANSWER - All persons on earth who honor and obey Jesus Christ as the One given by the Creator all authority in heaven and on earth in obedience to what's written in Matthew 28: 18 and believe his teachings too about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" as written in Luke 4: 43 and John 11: 25, 26 are clearly the lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful Followers of Jesus Christ on earth who can be trusted with anything and are worthy and deserving of the loving, kind, and merciful Creator's favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and death on a safe and peaceful earth without liars, slanderers, perverts, traitors, and murderers as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4, 8. How will Followers of Jesus Christ live and exist on earth forever if they just die and become worthless dusts on earth? ANSWER - All human beings will return to dusts after their deaths just like the animals as written in Ecclesiastes 3: 19, 20 but the teaching of Jesus Christ about the "RESURRECTION of the DEAD" guarantees that lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons on earth who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Job, Ruth, Naomi, King David, Jesus Christ's Followers and disciples, and many others will all be RESURRECTED back to life in the right and proper time so they can happily, abundantly, and peacefully live and exist on earth forever as subjects and citizens of the "KINGDOM of GOD" and fully enjoy the eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings of the Creator and his Christ for eternity under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as the Creator's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11:15.

[@8barsentertainment969]

I WILL NEVER WORSHIP ANY TYPE OF THAT IS INVOLVED OR ENCOURAGES SLAVERY ON ANY TYPE OF LEVEL.

[@allisonpinkall577]

I love the "EMERGENCY EPISODE" ahaha that got me sucked right in😂

[@NYKim_NY]

You're on their radar which means your content is resonating with people; otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to do damage control. Great video, thanks as always for what you are doing and the time and effort you put into getting this information to us!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate that encouragement!

[@BeccaYoley]

Yay a bonus video! Will watch as soon as I get a break from work😅

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks for being here, Becca!

[@BeccaYoley]

@@MindShift-Brandon Ugh the excuses are nauseating. Ultimately even IF the slaves were treated well according to his subjective idea of what constitutes being treated well, the idea of taking away another person's autonomy should be viewed as wrong if they insist their God cares so much about preserving free will. I'm glad you are staying strong on this issue, because you are right! And from what the Bible depicts, the slaves were not treated well by any means. If their God exists and is trying to help humanity, he would have stayed strong on this issue as well. From the beginning.

[@Johnmhatheist]

​@MindShift-Brandon I could be the most well treated slave in the world. That still makes me a slave. It's not about how well or poorly treated a slave is. Slavery is still slavery. So, when Christians say "well this slavery is different than what you're thinking," it's still sadly slavery. Thank you for this video. Theists get tired of me bringing up atrocious things such as slavery, genocide, misogyny, and the needless slaughter of animals. I'm a meat loving omnivore, and I understand that evolutionarily, I have developed into an omnivorous Homo sapien, so I'm not against killing animals for food since that's natural. I'm against killing animals for sport, fun, and for meaningless sacrifices without eating the meat. I mention these things to theists, which annoys them, because their God condones these things.

[@ertymexx]

@@BeccaYoley indeed. Imagine for a moment that someone started defending trafficking with "yeah, but when the russian maffia does it, they do it kindly and with positive vibes, not like the unchristian traffickers!"

[@BeccaYoley]

@@ertymexx Yep, and they're totally cool with God saying it's okay to beat your slaves as long as they don't die within 3 days. They're like yeah that sounds like fair treatment, the slaves probably deserved it. There are so many slimy excuses.

[@gheinrichs1]

In the laws of Hammurabi, you see that some of the laws in the Bible are worse than in that society. 7 years of labor versus 3 years of labor is one example for debt slavery. Many of the laws in both are similar. This is according to Josh Bowen.

[@ertymexx]

@@universalman5861 I think we just saw a bunch of those in the clip above mate.

[@ertymexx]

@@universalman5861 again, rewatch the above clip.

[@whatwecalllife7034]

​@@universalman5861Tbf they didnt say that the Hammurabi Code was better in every way, they said that some of laws were better.

[@whatwecalllife7034]

@@universalman5861 You're not paying attention to what I said. The Hammurabi code has SOME laws that are better than the laws expressed in the Torah. That's all. Conversely, the Torah has SOME laws that are better. That's all. What you're describing would be a case where the latter statement is true, but this does not negate the former statement. Understand?

[@whatwecalllife7034]

@@universalman5861 How about the law that the OP mentioned??

[@studiosandi]

You are always very graceful and kind Brandon.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Lol well thank you. But you haven’t been able to watch till the end yet. Got a little frustrated/snarky with him when we got to some blatant falsehoods. Someday i’ll be able to keep it 100

[@lisajohnson6296]

The fact that anyone would try to justify slavery in any shape or form is bizarre.

[@gomiker]

Bravo! I love your videos. You effortlessly present extremely detailed solid arguments in an easy to digest way. Former Mormon missionary here, it took me 40 years to deconstruct.

[@jaflenbond7854]

Nothing has changed, just the same... Satan the Devil is still an arrogant, cruel, hateful, and merciless hater and mocker of the Creator. the UNBIBLICAL teachings and doctrines of all Religions about "Trinity", "hellfire", "Armageddon", "immortality of the souls", "rapture", "afterlife", and "reincarnation" are still worthless and useless, nothing but LIES and foolishness of the enemies of Jesus Christ and only worthless arrogant, cruel, hateful, and merciless fools are proud of their worthless Atheism but while still not the right and proper time.... all Atheists, Christians, LIARS, arrogant, cruel, hateful, and merciless persons on earth will continue to be offended and angered by the TRUTH that the "KINGDOM of GOD" is still the Creator's Rulership through Jesus Christ that will stop and put an end to all the Satanic arrogance, hatred, hypocrisies, unkindness, ungratefulness, treacheries, cruelties, false claims and teachings, lies, and deceits of Satan's Atheism, Christianism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, and all forms of Religious Fanaticism and ensures planet Earth is safe, secure, and peaceful for all lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons who will definitely be honored and rewarded by the loving, kind, and merciful Creator with ETERNAL LIFE and existence without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and death on a secure Earth without arrogant, cruel, hateful and merciless persons, without liars, slanderers, perverts, traitors, and murderers. The "RESURRECTION of the DEAD" is still the Creator's guarantee that all lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons on earth who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Job, Ruth, Naomi, King David, Jesus Christ's Followers and disciples, and many others will all be RESURRECTED back to life in the right and proper time so they can happily, abundantly, and peacefully live and exist on earth forever as subjects and citizens of the "KINGDOM of GOD" and fully enjoy the eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings of the Creator and his Christ for eternity under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as the Creator's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks for this encouragement. Glad to hear its landing well.

[@somersetcace1]

It doesn't get any more explicit than Leviticus 25. All the hoop jumping in the world isn't going to change it. Even IF we grant them their hoop jumping, it doesn't explain why so many Christians got it so wrong, for so long. If divine revelation can be that misinterpreted, it's useless.

[@The-Doubters-Diary]

This EXACTLY!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

100%!

[@nickbrasing8786]

@@MindShift-Brandon Exactly. They always say "God couldn't just outlaw it". Well how about just telling us it's wrong? You know, immoral or a sin, or against His will? Keep all the laws if you want, but add that one simple sentence. But no, we evidently according to the apologists, had to work it out for ourselves. And then BOOM, 3,000 years later we did! What a victory...But no, we only were told how to do it correctly by God Himself, and never once told that He didn't want us to. One freaking sentence is all we needed.

[@johntiggleman4686]

@somersetcace1 Boy howdy!

[@christopher7725]

Would Gavin be for reinstating the Israelite rules for slavery in society today, yes or no? Yeah… that’s what we thought. Thanks for playing, Gavin!

[@Dr_Cigarettes]

I'm really glad I was never confronted with this issue as a Christian. I can only imagine the hoops I would have jumped through to justify what the Bible says about slavery. That being said, I'm kind of surprised it never came up in my 30+ years of Christian teaching.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Theres good reason it never came up. And yes i made far too many excuses and generalizations to not have to deal with it

[@Dr_Cigarettes]

@MindShift-Brandon 100% As much as I hate the modern internet, it is an invaluable resource for the type of information that allowed me to reevaluate my faith. Being able to fact-check my pastor in real time on my phone was a vital step in my deconversion.

[@Critical_Explorer-vw5hy]

I was never challenged about this, either. Even though I had some cognitive dissonance about the genocide, I never recognized the slavery. The only preaching I heard was how I was a bond servant of the Lord and that was a good thing. And I thought I was a critical thinker and studied the Bible inductively for 30 years. I am embarrassed.

[@18471902]

The reason it never came up in the church I grew up in is because the Sunday school lesson books, teachers, and preachers carefully steered us clear of those verses and many more that indicate the depravity of god.

[@GrimoireSp3ll]

Great video as always! And I also wanted to mention that I highly appreciate adding the verses in text so that we could also read them as you recite them since some of us are hard of hearing. Hope you continue your great work!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you!

[@loriw2661]

I don’t care what “kind” of slavery it is……slavery is wrong. Period. End of story. Fantastic video Brandon!

[@ertymexx]

"But it is NICE, KIND, CUDDLY sort of judeo-christian slavery! They had to wish their slaves a good nights sleep after every beating!" ;-)

[@danib712]

So is killing unborn babies

[@GravityCube2X]

What if the women was impregnated via... R*pe? ​@@danib712

[@SuperSayinSlayin]

You the Man Brandon! Keep it up!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Will do. Thanks!

[@marilynnpetit3570]

Thanks!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Always appreciate your generosity!

[@PaulTempesta-id8wr]

Thankyou again Brandon! I can't believe anyone would try to defend Any kind of slavery. Period

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Agreed. Thanks, Paul!

[@PhilP5924]

"People trying to make it more sinister than it is" about SLAVERY? Hell, even indentured servitude. That logic is crazy 😂😂😂😂

[@Nickelini]

It is never okay to own other people. Period. Defending it makes one a ghoul.

[@computationaltheist7267]

Human beings throughout history from the Aztecs to the transatlantic slave trade didn't think so. What makes your conclusion so special? And don't tell me the whole BS empathy argument. The argument doesn't work since feelings don't make morality.

[@johnwalker1058]

Well, it's okay to own someone in a debate (for example if they try to defend biblical slavery), but otherwise, yeah :)

[@njhoepner]

@@computationaltheist7267 It has nothing to do with emotions. It is self-evident that humans are not livestock, thus cannot be owned and bought and sold like livestock. Perfectly rational. Sails 50,000 feet over the head of "god," though. That it went on for so long is just another indictment of this so-called "god" who apparently cared not a whit about it...gets really fired up about people making images (totally harmless), blending fabrics (totally harmless), mixing plants in a field (totally harmless), religious freedom (totally harmless), etc etc...but slavery (harms hundreds of millions AT LEAST)...he's cool with it, never once says or even hints otherwise.

[@LukeNAndo]

@@computationaltheist7267how do you know slavery is wrong? Your book certainly doesn’t say so

[@ertymexx]

@@computationaltheist7267 really. Feelings don't make morality you say. Then explain to me why it is wrong to execute a five your old for misbehaving. No empathy or emotional arguments.

[@caycee6385]

I appreciate your response video. Well done. I have to say that I am surprised the original video didn't cover any statements from Dr Joshua Bowen as well...he often tackles this topic.

[@jrfree88]

Talking about slavery in the Bible with a Christian is one of the most frustrating experiences.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Agreed!

[@lastseenontuesday6040]

Try talking about it with African Christians who think its good thing because after all we received salvation

[@BluStarGalaxy]

I get the feeling that a lot of modern apologists would be the ones owning slaves and rationalizing owning slaves if they lived in the antebellum South. If they don't find problems with OT slavery why would they find problems with American slavery? A lot of Christians of that time period didn't. Hindsight is always 20/20, yet even some people today say American slavery wasn't that bad.

[@ziploc2000]

The GOP have been working hard to try to pretend it was a good thing for the slaves too. Disgusting behavior.

[@fomori2]

You have to be a morally reprehensible evil person to be an apologist, so I would assume they would twist the bible to justify whatever acts they wanted to do.

[@BluStarGalaxy]

@fomori2 I was told by an apologist that without god as a moral compass, I can't even say slavery is wrong. Apologists are disgusting.

[@fomori2]

@@BluStarGalaxyIf morals are objective, no god is necessary for morality. If they claim a god is needed for morals, then morality is subjective. Since morals are subjective, no god is necessary for morality. Either way no god is needed for morality in general. What they are trying to do is gaslight people that their SUBJECTIVE morals are in fact OBJECTIVE. Ignorance at best or dishonesty at worst.

[@BluStarGalaxy]

@@fomori2 I agree. If Christians think their gods morality is objective why aren't they owning and beating slaves right now. Their god said it was ok and this god, according to them, never changes. If they say that it is against the law does that mean man's laws are above their gods' laws? Their view of morality is subjective but they claim it is objective simply for apologetics to make god seem necessary to be good.

[@dancinswords]

The MindShift signal goes up in the sky, and an emergency episode goes out to the troubled web

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Lol!!

[@8barsentertainment969]

Whenever i come on KZbin this channel is the first recommendation 😂

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Not upset about that! lol thanks for being here!

[@8barsentertainment969]

@@MindShift-Brandon Will always be. I work and watch your content. most of what I already. Just great to see others who have overcome this indoctrination. By the way I was never a Christian, just seems off to me from a age. I'm all the way in Jamaica 🇯🇲 Much respect and love. Continue to create these great content

[@mariearce8021]

Thank you for this excellent clarification. This topic, as well as so many others, is important to me and I know to many others. To me, there is absolutely no way, no matter how hard they try, to explain this away. When I was reading and studying the bible (as much as I could) this whole thing just made me realize that there was no way for me to continue to believe and still be able to sleep peacefully at night. I honestly don't know how anyone can.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate that. And yes i share your sentiment. It gets to a point when it simply becomes all too clear.

[@TonyLambregts]

Great episode. Well done as usual. Your clarity of thought is appreciated. Thank you.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much, Tony!

[@simplybaker.]

It's important to remember as well, the reason the children of the slaves were kept as property was because the way people viewed their slaves having children was like a BREEDING program for more workers. Even more disgusting especially because if you couldn't "harvest more" people into this slavery you had to "make" more. Just makes me feel icky

[@benitokok4756]

Give this man a seat at the 4 Horsemen table.

[@BobPearson-zr1mi]

Southern slave owners would quote the Bible as proof that God supported owning slaves.

[@VictoriousCatholic]

And Quakers quoted the Bible showing slavery is wrong. They can't both be right if they're saying contrary things

[@njhoepner]

@@VictoriousCatholic Again, dodging...your "god" said and did absolutely nothing.

[@VictoriousCatholic]

@njhoepner Gal. 3 Verses 28 to 29 [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. You were saying?

[@asd-km2hf]

⁠@@VictoriousCatholicRead the context (So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.) [NIV], it’s clearly referring to spiritual worth in the eyes of Jesus. Do you think this verse eliminates the categories of men and women too? Also, you should cite what translation you are using.

[@VictoriousCatholic]

@@asd-km2hf clearly Paul is admitting distinctions exist but he is also saying they don't matter when it comes to salvation

[@bimbom9712]

the quality of these videos and the pace at which you uploads them is insanely impressive to me. you really know your bible. i'm so glad i found this channel, it feels like a hidden gem. i will be surprised if you don't blow up significantly within the next year

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad to hear. Thank you very much!

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

Good take on the kidnapping verse, Of course a god of perfect love could have just forbidden slavery the way he did shellfish and mixed fabrics.

[@johntiggleman4686]

@uncleanunicorn4571 or schtupping a shiksa.

[@thedude0000]

Just started the video and want to thank you for this response. I watched his video yesterday and couldn't believe the subtle apologetics he employed. Looking forward to your response.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you! Hope my reply matches expectations

[@thedude0000]

@@MindShift-Brandon You hit every nail on the head!! One thing you may want to research a little more is their apologetic argument, "our slavery was better than the rest of Ancient Near East" That's just not the case.

[@josephcollins6033]

It's cute when they try. No, it isn't. This man gives me the creeps.

[@richardmccart7426]

Are you the Joe Collins who used to live in Ft. Collins, Colorado, was a manager at Office Depot there and plays baseball? And is now one of the heads of the NABA in Denver?

[@josephcollins6033]

@@richardmccart7426 hi, Richard! I do not play baseball, but I sure do love it. Ft.Collins!! Wow. I received my Doctor of Arts in music from UNC in Greeley. I have a dear friend, for years, with whom I performed a lot, a soprano by name of Elena Batman. She is from Ft. Collins. Those were fun years. Thanks!

[@josephcollins6033]

@thegunsngloryshow NOT BRANDON!!!!! I love Brandon! I meant the idiot he is putting in place. Oh, my...I hope Brandon didn't read it that way. Thanks!

[@chazzilla8919]

Thank you for covering this, Brandon!

[@magepunk2376]

At the end of the day, they’re still defending and justifying *slavery*. I really couldn’t care less about all of their excuses. This absolutely is an issue worth giving no quarter to. No permissions. No tolerance. The whole thing is disgusting.

[@tdhoward]

I'm glad Gavin mentioned your channel. Maybe some of his viewers will come here and watch your response and see how ridiculous his points are. Good job getting your response up so quickly!

[@SoftBank47]

It’s uncanny how the first reaction from many Christians is “it wasn’t as bad when we did it!” Not a good look.

[@jeffbenelli6999]

Absolutely fantastic episode Brandon! I think shows like this are in your wheelhouse because of your extreme knowledge face your calm and articulate presentation and your overall intent, which is knowledge sharing and not cheap shots. When I say, I thank you for doing what you do I sincerely mean it

[@MindShift-Brandon]

You’re the best, Jeff. Thanks for the love!

[@SeedsnStems63]

After explaining the context of Hebrew law Exodus 21:16 I find that it strengthens the argument to add Deuteronomy 20:10-12 “When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.”

[@AllureKing]

I don’t understand how anyone can try and make slavery seem Iike it wasn’t that big of a deal. Like it blows my mind that it was common to own another human as property. There will never be a good reason for it. Thanks for speaking on this topic Brandon!

[@adamstevens1083]

Apologists just cannot help lying. It's almost like it's in their nature.

[@matthewgerwing6520]

How the hell are they defending...slavery???? How? I knew this was wrong, even as a Christian. As do they! What the hell.

[@matthewgerwing6520]

I mean slavery... this IS the American sin.

[@gl8561]

This is what happens when you start with a conclusion (God is good and moral) which forces you to brawl with logic and craft premises.

[@TimoRutanen]

You have to defend it when your god is being questioned. It's a hard thing to defend, but if you're really superholy in your mind, you must defend. You can also get paid for defending it, if you're a religious debater, writer, priest or something.

[@Mr._Nobadi_M._Portent]

This is why I'm a fan of this channel.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks!

[@TimoRutanen]

I must say I appreciate putting down the actual verses from the book in question. A lot of people don't, and the discussion feels like it's in the air. The verses ground the discussion nicely. Bonus points if you put down the version of the book you're using, or the version the opponent is using, or both.

[@9Khaleel7]

The main problem with this slavery in the Bible conversation is either an intentional or unintentional bait and switch or sleight of hand. Apologists are comparing biblical laws with how we know American slaves were treated. That’s an apples to oranges comparison. Since we don’t have any examples of the Hebrews actually interacted with their slaves, we need to compare biblical laws to the slave laws of America. Many of our slave laws were based on the biblical laws. Sometimes verbatim. Google Louisiana’s slavery laws and compare them to the biblical laws. That’s a more honest comparison.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

great point!

[@CafeteriaCatholic]

Well we have 2. Kings 4. the widow doesn't seem to get how great slavery is. So even the bible itself recognizes that slavery isn't something to be excited about.

[@computationaltheist7267]

What a big non-sequitur. So because there's no evidence that evidence of jow Hebrew individuals interacted with the slaves, somehow that means that the American that can be brought into book?

[@saltLTaylor]

Another great video. Thank you for your hard work in laying these points out in a straightforward manner ....

[@MindShift-Brandon]

My pleasure. Thanks for watching!

[@Dr_Cigarettes]

I like your analogy comparing God to a sex offender. Not because I'm so "angry at god" that I would compare him to a terrible type of person, but because the Christian god has traits that are inexcusable even if he has some "good" qualities.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yes. I should find a less contentious analogy because i know thats gonna rub some christians the wrong way but you caught my point perfectly here.

[@Dr_Cigarettes]

@MindShift-Brandon I don't think it's too contentious, considering what you're making a comparison to. Slavery and sex crimes are definitely in the same ballpark, especially if you factor in the concept of trafficking. The fact that slavery as a concept is somehow removed from our modern viewpoint allows it to be abstracted in a way that crimes like sexual assault and pedophilia cannot. Comparing it to those crimes is completely fair, especially if you are aiming to get the emotional response that people *should* get from the idea of slavery. The fact that anyone can reason their way to defending any form of slavery is heinous.

[@maryanderson9191]

I am glad that you and Gavin are able to have a rational and courteous conversation.

[@robertjimenez5984]

I love when he says; it’s not that bad. It’s bad but not as bad as other slave system. He is admitting that it’s bad and that who ever made these rules is in favor of this evil system. But it’s not that bad. So god is not that bad as well.

[@riskybiscuits688]

I've been wanting to do an in depth atheost bible study, and i think your video series would be a great template to base it on

[@dasbus9834]

_"the differences between an Israelite and a non-Israelite are not just about race - it's about their whole citizenship and nationality"_ - I guess it's for the same reason we are still looking positively on Roman or Greek slavery? Seriously, this is just one embarrassing excuse after the other.

[@Leonidas300SP]

Wow that painting in the background looks amazing man!!

[@Warrior-re5fn]

Mike drop!! You did a awesome job brother. Problem is no matter what or how you show them they will make a excuse to disprove everything that goes against scripture. I'm proud of you brother. Keep it up. Warrior on🤗

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thats so nice, man. thank you for this. And yes it can feel very hopeless sometimes to be able to not get through.

[@Warrior-re5fn]

No matter what please don't stop doing what you're doing. I'm sure it's getting through to someone. Planting seeds bro👍🏼😁​@@MindShift-Brandon

[@cottington32]

Another great video from Mindshift….. insightful and sensible….😊

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much!

[@rizdekd3912]

I've always said the horrible part of the first verses of of Exodus 21 is hidden in plain view. And you pointed it out...the WOMAN and the children are the slaves here not the man. It's almost like Bible apologists are blind to the details and sweep them under the carpet in their mad dash to defend the word of God.

[@fomori2]

Apologists are 100% dishonest. The only thing they care about is having as many people as possible to put more money into their and/or church coffers.

[@ronwright6870]

Brandon, your amazing, and I think you're absolutely correct.

[@Boundless_Border]

I feel like it deserves attention that the common defense of not being allowed to kidnap is made less relevant by the fact that kidnapping is a relatively legalistic distinction, just like murder. So, the prohibition isn't exactly against the forceful capture of other people as a category. But it is against it in certain circumstances. And I think we catch a glimpse of how the distinction exists within the text when we discuss wartime slavery.

[@Chrismas815]

This reminds me of a short Prophet of Zod made a while ago. Its about how apologists would react to the biblical slavery if it happened today (and were consistent with what they say) i think its called something like "but is it harsh slavery?"

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I'll check it out!

[@AndrewChristiansen-rx4mx]

When Gavin talks about Trans-Atlantic Slave trade being at a different scale, I ask so how many people being made into slave does it take before it becomes wrong?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

yes!

[@FoursWithin]

I know it's a difficult equation, so I'm going to supply the answer for our friends without a moral calculator. 👇 One .

[@alexandraparadela9548]

Wow, I was so happy to see your video, for a second I thought it was Thursday , what a great treat and a great video. Thank you Brandon

[@matthewnitz8367]

With regards to your remarks on Exodus 21:26-27, you are right on the money in saying that the law only enacted consequences for maiming or dismembering of slaves. But I think it is worth pointing out more in detail just how horrific it is that Gavin would use this verse to say that "slaves had rights" as a defense of slavery as being better or more morally acceptable with these types of laws. Because that is the EXACT rhetoric that was used in the antebellum south to defend slavery. They gave their slaves "rights" too, such as these examples from Louisiana slave code: The Digest of 1808, a compilation of the civil law in territorial Louisiana, reinforced the Black Code: "The slave is entirely subject to the will of his master who may correct him and chastise him, though not with unusual rigor, nor so as to maim or mutilate him, or expose him to the danger of loss of life, or to cause his death." The Black Code also prohibited the maiming or killing of slaves by their owners or others. Persons who treated slaves with cruelty risked a fine of between $200 and $500. The Code excepted certain types of physical chastisement from its definition of cruel punishment: "flogging, or striking with a whip, leather thong, switch or small stick." These are excerpts from '"DETAILS ARE OF A MOST REVOLTING CHARACTER":CRUELTY TO SLAVES AS SEEN IN APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT OF LOUISIANA' by Judith K Schafer. And she wasn't pointing these out to say "look, the slaves had protections in the south, so it wasn't as bad as other kinds of slavery that other people had!" She is rightly pointing out the horror of the legal apparatus that necessarily develops to set at least SOME bounds on just how much you can abuse another human that you are treating as your property in order to discipline them and force them to your will, before you may have to give up your ownership of them. Not compensate them in any way, and probably not even go to prison. Just give up your ownership of your property. And again, the exact same problem with his defense of "acquiring" a slave rather than capturing them by force. The United States in fact outlawed not just the capturing of slaves but ALL importation of any slaves whatsoever in 1808, via the "Act Prohibiting the Importation of Slaves". Would Gavin say after this that American chattel slavery was significantly better and morally acceptable because we were just "acquiring" slaves at auction inside the US and inheriting them as property? Obviously not. When placed in the more recent context he has a gut instinct to condemn rather than excuse I'm sure he would clearly see this for what it is. A stopgap measure that does nothing to rectify the horrific practice of slavery that is still ongoing, and that indeed a Civil war still had to be fought to end up abolishing. If Gavin was trying to defend these US laws as demonstrating that slaves had "rights" so slavery wasn't as bad as we modern Americans are making it out to be, we would all properly see it as the apologetics for a dehumanizing and cruel practice that it is. Now I don't think he is thinking this through or actually thinks this is a somewhat morally defensible system of laws. But that is what makes it so insidious. He seems like a pretty okay and thoughtful guy in general. But his need to defend the morality of the Bible is causing him to make arguments that lay the groundwork for people in the future to potentially be persuaded that SOME kinds of slavery are maybe not so bad, as long as you have laws that prevent owners from killing the slave or take the slaves away if the owner mutilates them. And he doesn't even realize that that is what his defense condones. Regardless of how relatively unlikely it is that people actually become convinced this is a good argument intellectually, instead of just treating it as a convenient excuse to reduce cognitive dissonance about Biblical slavery, it is still unnecessarily harmful and something he should absolutely apologize for if he ever comes to realize the implications of what he is saying in the future.

[@danhoff4401]

I'm glad you focused on Lev 25:46, he tap danced around it. In his whole video he never actually read it out loud in context. What he did is the equivalent of responding to a Calvinist and never reading Romans 9. The most relevant proof text for the opposite side, the proof text used to defend antebellum slavery in pre civil war American gets glossed over with a focus on the word "acquired" and a tangent on racism in the antebellum south. It's a masterclass in lying by omission.

[@robertwareham8466]

The version of the verse he quotes about the owner not being avenged for killing the slave is even worse than yours. It says "But if the slave survives a day or two, he shall not be avenged." That appears to be saying that, if the beaten slave lives for two days AND THEN DIES, then the owner is not to be considered at fault and will receive no punishment. How often do we hear about people that have been beaten or attacked horrifically, put into a coma and then die after a week, or even longer? Is the person who did the attack then not liable for some reason, just because the person in the coma lived for another week before dying of their injuries? Why do these people even try to justify this kind of thing?

[@PrometheanRising]

I have been hoping that someone would do the side by side comparison of Biblical slavery and Transatlantic slavery. Thanks for that! So here's a funny thing. Apologists often like to play up the horrors of slavery in the American South, but the reality is that they had many of the same laws on the books that the ancient Jews did. We even know from the Bible that some enslavers in Ancient Judah were indifferent to the laws on the books, just like some enslavers in the American South.

[@DoctorZisIN]

Apparently the pagan Gods were more merciful than the God of the Jews. In ancient Rome, slaves had rights, like the right to appeal to the govermnment if they were mistreated. They could go to the magistrate at the emperor's house and state their girevances. The law had a clause called "Favor liberty", meaning in most complaints the default was to set the slave free, which was inherited from Greek philosophers who believed in the equality of all men.

[@SouthernMenace]

Excellent commentary. I wasn't aware of this apologist.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you much.

[@SapientCephalopod]

I have noticed a gap in the Counter Appologetics (CA) of slavery that I would be interested to see you address since I have never seen Slavery CA even raise the issue. The classic Slavery CA is pretty straight forward, "The Bible, old and new testament, specifically endorse slavery and never disavow it." This is straight up undeniable (well undeniable for rational people who are literate), but it leaves out the larger theme in the Bible. The larger theme in the Bible is "Salvation", and the "Salvation" model in and of itself is just slavery by another name. To paraphrase some bible versus; "We are slaves in Christ" "He has purchased you with his blood." "You can serve God or mamon." Further, many of the parables are about "servants" and masters and Jesus treats this social structure of slavery the same way one would treat scenery. It just is. I realize that this line of thinking is not as straightforward as the literal analysis of slavery in the bible, but the implications are far more dire. "Salvation is Slavery". I would love to hear your take on this.

[@Herschel1738]

There is also another aspect of slavery in regards to "Salvation". Ancient slaves were forced to follow the Laws of Moses by their masters - there are parts of the Law that say that "all who dwell in your house, including servants & slaves, have to follow the Laws". American slaves were prohibited from worshiping their own gods and forced to become Christians. How can a slave of his own free will, accept the beliefs in God & His "Salvation" if he is owned by someone who can use violence to enforce his religious beliefs on them?

[@FoursWithin]

It has been addressed. Including by African American ex-Christians. However it appears to have even less traction than "actual" slavery issues on believers. Many indoctrinated Christians (and Muslims) just accept that they are 100% a wholehearted willing slave to their God. It's a badge of honor for them. Very cultish mentality and a sure case of Stockholm syndrome. It's something that's part and parcel of the abrahamics ideology.

[@johntiggleman4686]

@jaredboyd7997 I've had a problem with that "We are slaves in Christ" for about 55 of my 73 years...when I actually started to pay attention to the bible and the writings therein. That rankles me more than the idea that we are "nothing without Christ," or we can DO NOTHING on our own without "god" or Christ. Deny yourself, and all of that stuff to keep you paying attention to what the bible says in the not so "pretty" verses.

[@ShadowQuickpaw]

“‘Some’ forms of slavwry are unjust.” Some? “SOME?!”