"Nobody complained" doesn't make it okay

[@JessieGender1]

As someone who had boys reveal their junk to her as a “joke” when I was in Boy Scouts and didn’t complain cause I just thought it was a normal “boys” thing, despite me being very bothered about it, yeah, no complaints does not equal it being ok.

[@gozerthegozarian9500]

Yeah, this sort of behaviour isn't 'normal' so much as it's *normalized* - I know from experience that if you dare to complain, you're more likely to earn scorn and derision than any sympathy. It's gaslighting, basically! I ended up thinking maybe I was the one in the wrong? It's so f#*ked up...Hugs to you, if you want them!

[@keegszzz8356]

Now I’m glad I left Boy Scouts when I did. I never liked that sort of immature behavior either.

[@GeekFilter]

@@gozerthegozarian9500 Yeah I was going to say if you complain about their behavior *you* are the one labeled the problem. Feels like a lot of situations I encountered growing up.

[@seto749]

Agreed, so long as you are not implying that it's worse that they did that to a girl.

[@benw9949]

Jessie is trans and hadn't transitioned back then, I presume. Jessie's point is still true, and there's a lot to it, which I think Jessie knows from having dealt with things. (In other words, I hope I don't bother Jessie by commenting.) -- Boys do some goofy, thoughtless, risky stuff, some of it with sexual overtones, and they may not even be aware of it or they may not intend anything bad by it. Yet yeah, it can be startling or freaky, seeing some things. -- I hadn't realized until thinking about it how many examples of various odd things boys I knew did, growing up. I get what Jessie is saying that that can make you feel very uncomfortable, startled, baited, or freaked out, and it can be hard to know what's really going on with them or yourself, in a given situation. It's a thing. Boys do stuff with those kinds of connotations, or with other behavior. I think we have to realize some of it is just growing up, making mistakes, or their own development, figuring out how to act, their feelings. Then there are cases where, yeah, it's not OK, they're pushing it on purpose. The thing is, it's usually straight, ordinary boys, and only a few may act up more strongly. But a few act badly. It can be tough to know how to deal with any given situation.

[@skylarjohnson7779]

"nobody complained" is not an excuse, it's another problem.

[@Frahamen]

"nobody complained" is not an excuse, but it does explain why is doesn't stop, and that's part of the problem.

[@nancyjay790]

It's the same sad story for many people who are harassed in many workplaces. As a young woman, I regularly had men stare at my chest or butt, make lewd suggestions, and call me "nasty" if I got upset. Particularly when I worked in stores and did secretarial work. There was a big expectation, especially in offices, to, "Shut up and look pretty." Or ask what I expected given that I wore makeup and my blouses were tight. (Which happened-- I had a C cup). I know what I went through was pretty minor, because I wouldn't stay in an office with certain men who had a reputation in the workplace. But, yeah, it happens, even when someone is "just joking".

[@nancyjay790]

@Mark Guerrero Vera's point, though, is while a number of people either found it funny, there's no telling how many people felt they couldn't say anything. Many people are in positions where they have to put up with stuff, because they know the other person is valuable to the company. Barrowman was and is a celebrity. These others could be wardrobe, makeup, and extras. My husband has worked as an extra, and it's either no or low pay, and a lot of the main cast never speak to extras. I do think Barrowman had no malicious intent, but he still may have made people other than Clarke (and those who regarded Barrowman as a friend) at least uneasy and uncomfortable.

[@markpostgate2551]

I think this is a curiously morally absolutist point of view from people who are routinely referred to as "postmodernist" by their opponents. Everyone has different standards of what "beyond the pale" is, and that's why "boundaries" have to be negotiated and discovered on a case by case basis; you can't say "because I wouldn't like it no one should experience it" because we don't all have the same tastes, and making the world conform to our personal tastes would in the end make everyone unhappy. Just think of the list of banned words, no not just the ones conservatives have to describe as "letter-bomb" or liberals have to describe as "letter-word" but also "moist", "belly", "panties", "burglarize" (it's "burgle", ffs!); think of all the banned strong-smelling foods - eggs, marmite, peanut butter, curry, wasabi, coconut, broccoli (yes I once had a neighbour complain that she could smell us cooking broccoli which she didn't like!); think about couples kissing in public, drag acts, sex on tv, beards, tattoos, audible orgasms, jokes about death (I want to go the same way as my grandfather, peacefully in his sleep and not screaming in terror like all of his passengers). If we banned all the things somebody somewhere finds disgusting we'd wind up with nothing. If everyone could successfully say "if I wouldn't want it happening to me it shouldn't happen to anyone" nothing would ever happen to anyone which as Dory observes is "not much fun for little Harpo". So if no one complained we have to assume either they were okay with it, or they lacked assertiveness and if so that is their problem - the downside of being overly tolerant is you have to put up with a lot of things you don't like (the doormat), but you can also be insufficiently tolerant and not put up with anything you don't like you are an unpleasant person to be around (the Karen), so you do need to find the balance and ask if in your relationships the tolerance is balanced and generally we want it reciprocal so people we are relatively tolerant towards we expect them to be relatively tolerant back. Which is what motivates us to be tolerant, because we think if we are easy going we will consequently be in the company of easy going people. We can't set other people's boundaries for them! In fact, being revolted by naked penises is such a widespread commonplace reaction that it would be easy to successfully complain about it if you wished to. Imagine if what you were disgusted by was something everyone else loves! That would be a really tricky thing to complain about! I don't think the lack of complaints can be because people were too scared to say anything. Whether you think it should occur or not, it would be cruel to reward a behaviour for years with encouraging laughter and cuddles and air kisses and all that hollow luvvie crap, and then turn on that person decades later and condemn it as the most despicable thing that is beyond all forgiveness.

[@androstempest]

Precisely. Working environments where silence is encouraged are toxic. If people have a problem it should be ok for them to speak up without risking their careers. Maybe that one person complaining is in the wrong, maybe not, but to feel you just can’t say anything is serious. The media industry has operated on that basis for decades. It’s time to change.

[@cryofpaine]

In my original comment I made the distinction between inappropriate and harmful, stating that Clarke's behavior was harmful where Barrowman's was inappropriate (barring others coming forward to say they were harmed (including offended) by it). But that was a good point that there might not have been any harm to those in this situation (which can obviously change if someone comes forward), but it can still be harmful by encouraging others with more malicious intent to try and claim it was just a joke.

[@jonathanh5872]

It may be a personal thing, but I’ve only seen / heard the actual words “it’s only a joke” used to try defend the most abhorrent and despicable choices. I find that more often than not (with the people I follow), if there was a clear and harmless intent EVEN IF IN POOR JUDGMENT; the individual in question can explain that and most importantly GIVE CONTEXT in more than just four words. Maybe it’s bias because I’m drawn to more articulate and publicly open individuals, I’m also not saying you’re wrong- I just really value people not hiding behind a throw-away phrase, yaknow?

[@jonathanh5872]

@@kristienwhitney-johns5863 100%! Like when you see behind the scenes of that era of Who, it’s obvious that it was a lot tighter and more like “a bunch of mates” than shows today for example. I really want to give the benefit of the doubt- but like you say it’s still not REALLY something that should be done. For me (and I’m sure what you have also considered) the big factor in JB’s issues is the well made point that it wasn’t private. It wasn’t just one or two people. It was A CREW. It’s easy for stage hands to slip into the scenery, ITS THEIR JOB, I KNOW! But as a responsible and mature PROFESSIONAL, you need to acknowledge that they are still people yaknow? I hope that makes sense!

[@cryofpaine]

@@kristienwhitney-johns5863 me either, and I work from home. Even though the camera is off, the least dressed I'll go is in sweats instead of pants.

[@leonbell5141]

Hmmmm one rule for one….🤔

[@jonathanh5872]

@@leonbell5141 can you elaborate? Do you mean that you’re frustrated normal people can’t whip their junk out? 🤣

[@angiep2229]

"Nobody complained" absolutely does not work in situations where there is a power dynamic.

[@cherylemmanuel744]

Spot on.

[@TheLastSane1]

Which is everywhere at all times. The Human Species really is just a mess.

[@alejandrogangotena9033]

almost nothing works in absolutes.

[@kasterborous1701]

"Inside jokes" are one thing, but I've never had a job where exposing myself to my colleagues at work wouldn't have immediately got me fired.

[@padmelotus]

Kasterborous, I agree, but I've never had a job where things such as taking my top off, taking all of my kit off, kissing colleagues, simulating sex with colleagues, simulating fighting or killing colleagues, was acceptable either. So, acting is a little bit different. It's not whether you are doing these things or not that is important in the acting sphere. It's whether everyone has agreed to this in advance, without coersion, and with choice to not participate. It's about consent and boundaries.

[@kasterborous1701]

@@padmelotus “Acting is a little bit different”. Oh come on. That entirely depends on the specific role and production. Filming nudity/sexual scenes etc usually requires closed sets to limit exposure and liability for both the crew and the actors’ sakes. Nothing in Barrowman’s role on Doctor Who required him to repeatedly flop his cock out in front of anyone else.

[@padmelotus]

@@kasterborous1701 I don't disagree. I was just noting that there are lots of things that are normal on a film set, that would be friends upon and/or get you sacked in most other jobs.

[@padmelotus]

@@Phoenix2312 maybe, but then it seems that the Barrowman stuff was only unearthed by people investigating Clarke. So, once the allegations against Clark were made public, it is understandable that the stuff about Barrowman followed soon after. I would also say that there is not anything that people can really shout out about Clarke. He immediately felt the effects; including the suspension of his BAFTA award and membership, has had tv productions cancelled, and hasn't he lost his agent or something? People just need to wait to police action now. But, mother has happened to Barrowman. Not, that I necesarily think that anything of this nature should.

[@bensweiss]

I would think one would need to run that by friends if one were going to do that with them or risk losing that relationship if they reacted negatively and the exposure continued.

[@pallas9113]

"Nobody complained about a behavior that _obviously_ would have ticked some people off" reflects _really_ bad on the environment in and of itself...

[@gozerthegozarian9500]

Right? More like: "Nobody felt safe voicing any objection they may have had." Sounds like a toxic workplace culture, no?

[@femmefuntime]

@@gozerthegozarian9500 it’s making more and more sense as to why Christopher Eccleston left

[@gozerthegozarian9500]

@@femmefuntime My thoughts exactly...

[@Holobrine]

@@femmefuntime Almost makes me wonder if he’d have something to say, were it not for respecting Barrowman’s evident personal growth.

[@BlackCover95]

@@gozerthegozarian9500 “You're damaging an entire industry!” -Barbara Walters

[@justuscrickets]

Thank you, and now will you PLEASE give yourself that hard-earned break? 🌈♥️

[@CouncilofGeeks]

NEVAHR!

[@Greasyyyhair]

I agree!

[@joefletcher335]

Thanks that was a great explanation I think everyone acknowledges that what he did was not acceptable behaviour. The distinction between doing something in front of your friends and on set helped me to get a better picture especially as there are loads of people who potentially wouldn’t speak up. It’s an extremely complex situation because we need to truly understand the seriousness of what he did with and the relationship to the punishment. Atm it seems almost like his reputation is being tarnished in the same way as Noel Clarke. They are both wrong but I believe there should be a firm distinction between predatory behaviour and on set indecency. One trying to provoke sex and the other a laugh.

[@chanceneck8072]

EXACTLY!!

[@Donnagata1409]

@@CouncilofGeeks You should. 😁

[@callumg3330]

Tbh I knew something would happen with John barrowman one day, some of his convention behaviour wasn’t appropriate either. boundaries issues

[@TheLastSane1]

The boundary issue is that he seems far too comfortable for social norms. Especially American social norms which are very sex-negative and body shaming. There is a reason people kick up such a fuss about breast feeding because its exposing a "No no" place in public. But Vera is right about the professional environment meaning he really should be less comfortable. We expect such things because we would be.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Since my shooting this, Doctor Who producer Julie Gardner has stated that she received a complaint about Barrowman’s behavior and he was privately reprimanded - amp.theguardian.com/culture/2021/may/07/noel-clarke-accused-of-sexual-harassment-on-doctor-who-set I should stress this in no way invalidates this video, since the very premise of “nobody complained so it’s fine” needs addressing in general, and this video was always about the conversation more than Barrowman himself.

[@nightowl8477]

I haven't heard this, I'll have to read it. Julie and Russell are big heroes of mine, so this is something of a relief. I'm not sure I fully buy it tho, there's so much evidence that they were both complicit. I'll have a read.

[@chrispalmer7893]

What makes Barrowman redeemable is that when he was told to stop, he stopped. He has said that no harm was meant, but he has not said he thinks he did nothing wrong. We have to allow for that, if for no other reason than if we don't people who transgress in a small way have no reason to stop doing so and are likely to get worse. Still think that Clarke went way beyond what is redeemable, even if we limit ourselves to what he had admitted.

[@booradley8895]

Using Barrowman who after having complaints against him dealt with means he should not be in the video because it does not apply to him

[@chrispalmer7893]

@@booradley8895 He's not talking about Barrowman, he's talking about the arguments used in defence of him. Barrowman is the context, not the subject.

[@theunamiable]

There has now been a complaint about Noel Clarke from the Doctor Who set itself. If this is the sort of working environment that drove Eccleston away from the show (and he and Barrowman have also sniped each other over on-set behaviour), then it certainly can't be said no-one complained, or it even had the veneer of okay.

[@marknorth8904]

My understanding is that Chris also complained that RTD would belittle the set and film crew

[@Quirkyalonester]

When I heard that Barrowman though Eccleston was too serious and tried get him to lighten up, it hit a nerve. I'm not as much of a jokester or as outgoing, especially at work, as a number of people I've worked with. Thankfully the joking wasn't exposing themselves or anything, but it did often get on my nerves, though I recognized it probably irritated me more than others and there should be room to have a little fun while getting the job done. I'm realizing now, though that there were a couple that though they realized I wasn't enjoying the jokes would low key continue to try to get me to join in. Not all the time but enough. They didn't seem to care I didn't want to "play" and found it amusing to continue to try. Even now I know I would have felt stupid and high maintenance to have brought it up, and spending a lot of time with coworkers you get on each others nerves sometimes, but it's definitely an experience that has made me really sensitive to being told I don't have a sense of humor.

[@kimberlyrodrigues2998]

@@Quirkyalonester He thought Eccleston was too serious?! Out of all the new Doctors, Eccleston is my favorite, because he brought a joy to the character that the ones who came after him just didn't have. If that is too serious, then I cringe to think of what Barrowman thinks is ok.

[@Quirkyalonester]

@@kimberlyrodrigues2998 I think it was more off camera. He didn't seem to want to kid around in the same way Barrowman did. And if Eccleston is anything like me, repeated attempts to get me out of my serious mood would not have been appreciated. Some of us are just more serious at work and it should be okay.

[@kimberlyrodrigues2998]

@@Quirkyalonester Not a damned thing wrong with that. I'm not much different. When I'm at work, I'm in work mode, and people trying to play around get on my nerves, especially when they're trying to drag me into it.

[@bigreadrgrl]

John Barrowman was also a judge on a reality competition show and in one of the acting exercises in order to get a reaction from the actresses he grabbed each of them and kissed them. I always found that gross. Everyone acted like it was fine just because he’s gay.

[@RottiDog100]

Touching without consent is never ok.

[@incognitoatunknown2702]

I saw him on tv in the Canadian version of Over the Rainbow. Let me tell you when John Barrowman walked into the room for the first time EVERY ONE of those girls swooned, like for real. None of them would've had a problem being kissed by him. They would have thanked their lucky stars. Lol

[@ooooneeee]

@@incognitoatunknown2702 just because you are attracted to someone doesn't mean you consent to them kissing you.

[@ACanOfBakedBeans]

@@incognitoatunknown2702 Bill Cosby was an attractive man in his younger days, still didn't give him the right to drug and rape women

[@JoeScottish]

"Nobody complained" doesnt mean they condoned it... some people just dont want to be seen as someone who complains

[@AnnetteFrancescaDesigns]

The most telling thing for me was that Barrowman owned the mistake, acknowledged that some may have been offended and, as far as I can tell, refrained from doing it again. When the man himself agrees that it is wrong I don't think we can really adopt the 'nobody complained' stance or we are just contributing to the ongoing problem the industry has.

[@gingerbell07]

I generally laugh when I’m uncomfortable or nervous, and have been in awkward work situations where everyone around probably thought I was laughing at the joke. I get your point. Take your break, already, though.

[@Maerahn]

Back in my twenties, I worked in a factory that made industrial equipment; the factory floor was 100% male employees, and, of the clerical support staff, I was one of only THREE women under the age of thirty. (There were three other women who were 40+, and then all the other staff were male.) For us three young girls under thirty, part of our job was to go down on the factory floor to pick up and drop off paperwork - and we DREADED it, every time. The factory blokes did A LOT of things that were "just a joke;" wolf-whistles and catcalls, making lewd suggestions and comments - I still remember one time when one guy old enough to be my dad shut his office door behind us while I was alone in there with him, and s-l-o-w-l-y unzipped my jacket, not saying a word but just smiling at me, before stepping out of my way so I could bolt out of the door. But every time we said anything about it, either directly to the men in question or to the HR department, we got the same responses - "They're just kidding around, you know what men are like..." "they wouldn't actually DO anything to you..." "stop taking it so seriously, it's just harmless fun..." oh, and the old favourite (surprisingly - or maybe not - from other WOMEN) "Well, if you don't like it, maybe you should stop encouraging them - wear trousers instead of skirts, don't go looking all pretty on the factory floor, and don't smile or talk to them." In short, we were made to feel like WE were the problem if we DIDN'T see it as perfectly okay behaviour - and since it was just the three of us, and we were all young, we were vastly outnumbered. We were the 'nobodies' who complained, and had our lives made worse for it. So yeah, that's why I don't truck with the 'nobody complained' line either.

[@anne-zh2kd]

Maybe just never talk to anyone ever, and wear a mech suit to work if you don't want to get harassed. Because men are toddlers apparently, who cannot control any behaviour about themselves. This shit is awful.Sorry you went through that. * And super illegal and disgusting. Hope that came through, wasn't trying to diminish a horrible experience. Just focusing on the surreal logic.

[@CritterKeeper01]

@@anne-zh2kd Yup, it always amazes me we don't see more *men* objecting to being infantilized like that! "They can't help themselves, they're men!" is *incredibly* insulting to the men!

[@Maerahn]

@@anne-zh2kd It did come through, don't worry. Thanks for the support. 😊

[@marknorth8904]

I would like to know what Billie Piper thought about the entire Noel Clarke, John Barrowman situation then, as well as now...

[@ACanOfBakedBeans]

And Tennant too

[@hightde13]

My only issue with what is happening to John is actually the exact opposite of this 'defense'. I agree that 'nobody complained' is a terrible defense of bad behavior but the fact is people /did/ complain. And based on those complaints he was already reprimanded for the bad behavior, appologized for said bad behavior and by all accounts has made successful effort to curtail it and make amends. But suddenly 13 /years/ later he is being punished /again/ for 'reasons'. I find it very angering and I wish him all the best in the coming years as this one has turned a bit sht for him all of a sudden.

[@kitcat8308]

This.... There's also just that people don't always understand the difference between an explanation with change ..... " This is why I did the thing... Now I know I was wrong.".. and you stop.... And an excuse with "change".... "But no one complained but if you can't take a joke guess I won't do it" The difference is a change in thought From what I'm hearing/seeing , when he was told he was making people uncomfortable... He stopped because he never wanted/ intended to do so He realized and accepted that it wasn't funny to everyone And while there's a lot to be said on Why someone wouldn't realize that.... I'd say general lack of exposure to people outside your own mindset/ culture have a lot to do with that

[@chanceneck8072]

I would never show my junk for a joke? I don't get it, where's the fun in that? I'm gonna be uncomfortable, everyone else is gonna be uncomfortable, it's just a lose-lose-situation...

[@fiercerodent]

I've been in the exact position you describe when you mention other workers on the set: I used to be the only female stagehand at a theater, as an apprentice. One of my colleagues would sometimes whip out his junk and swing it around above the orchestra pit, as a joke. I was very uncomfortable with this, but I didn't dare to speak up. The only time I tried that for a different issue it only made things worse for me, while the directors and managers congratulated themselves on standing up against misogyny. So - since I kept quiet - from everyone else's perspective, nothing was wrong. And it wasn't the only misconduct either, it rarely is. If you have a work climate where people feel comfortable exposing themselves, there's a good chance they are comfortable doing other inappropriate stuff as well. All these seemingly small things happening constantly, and with no way to defend myself, I eventually grew too anxious to continue my job before finishing my apprenticeship. It's been years and career wise I still haven't recovered. We weren't a small group of equals joking around. A theater, just like a TV studio, has a lot of different workers with different roles, and different amounts of power. This is why it's important to call our unprofessional behaviour even if no one says anything.

[@cmmosher8035]

I used work somewhere were sexual humour was sometimes used for veiled intimation. The vibe was very much "what can't you take a joke?" and it was bothering me how some people seemed be giving Barrowman a pass. I love Jack, he's probably my favourite new character in the reboot.

[@siginotmylastname3969]

This is why them assuming good intent angered me, "humour" like that is upholding rape culture and threatening further sexual violence even though he calls it a "joke".

[@TheLastSane1]

@@siginotmylastname3969 I mean to be far according to left-wing culture if you are a male or at least present as male you are already upholding rape culture and should be done away with.

[@colleenmarin8907]

@@TheLastSane1 Where did you get that idea from? Anti-male for just being male rhetoric is not a left-wing culture thing, it is an extremist thing

[@robforasm]

what reboot?

[@cmmosher8035]

@@robforasm I just mean the current series.

[@penguinnj173yahoo6]

I feel the need to expand on my original post. The point I wanted to make was regarding Vera's point that the BBC might not want to bring JB back in future because of this controversy. What I wanted to emphasize was this behavior was not a secret and the show runners and the BBC should have made their peace with it when they brought him back for his last 2 appearances. They shouldn't act like they are just finding this out and now can't allow him to be on the show anymore. However you want to judge the behavior itself- as toxic, as hugely unprofessionsal, etc- it was known about. And I have a problem if this is the reason the BBC does not use him again because if that is the stance they want to take, why bring him back in the first place? Just my opinion of course. I thought Vera's comparison to James Gunn was right on the money. When "troubling incidents from the past" are public, production companies need to make a serious, thoughtful decision about hiring the individual. But once the decision is made- barring new revelations- they need to stick with it. They shouldn't get freshly outraged about something they knew about going in.

[@sallyatticum]

The BBC are not acting like they are just finding out about JB. As was reported in the Guardian, Julie Gardner, an exec on both Torchwood and Doctor Who, said she reprimanded JB at the time and met with JB and his agent and with the BBC. She said to her knowledge, the behavior ceased at that point. I also saw it reported that his previous behavior was addressed in his contract for ITV's I'm a Celebrity. So, clearly, the industry was aware and had addressed it.

[@TvistoProPro]

@@sallyatticum I think you're missing the point here though. BBC had announced Barrowman and Bradley were going to be in the upcoming Time Fracture spin-off just a week before this all hit the fan. Now, Barrowman has been cut from it. BBC is clearly acting like the just found this out, despite it being well known for some time. The fans know they've known, that it was addressed, and is very old news. But they're clearly taking action to appease a different group, the non-fan public. Announcing a new show one week and canceling the next is fine if something new comes to light. You can't expect different in that case. But to do it because known 13 year old allegations hit the spot light, when that behavior was addressed and hasn't been repeated since then? That doesn't sit right with me either.

[@sallyatticum]

@@TvistoProPro That cancellation was announced after this post and video.

[@sarahgardner8856]

Thank you for bringing up the crew, silence isn't consent.

[@Anna133199]

It's a naked body. Why would a person being their naked self require consent from everybody witnessing it? Just jumping around without clothes is different from putting your sausage on a person's shoulder, which he apparently also did, and is awful to do without consent.

[@sarahgardner8856]

@@Anna133199 what he was doing was meant as an intentionally sexual joke. So no it wasn't just a naked body. Also, just because you are comfortable with a co-worker exposing themselves to you in the workplace doesn't mean everybody else is.

[@Anna133199]

@@sarahgardner8856 I know not everybody is comfortable with any person being naked, but 'being comfortable' is a very subjective standard to go by. Literally anything could make somebody uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable with lots of things/lots of types of people. If I'm uncomfortable in the workplace, there are generally three things I could do: 1 Get the person doing the thing that makes me uncomfortable to stop doing that, out of kindness to me or because hr told them to. 2 Deal with being uncomfortable. 3 Look for a new job. A guy exposing himself may be unprofessional and childish, but not inherently sexual. What makes you think his jokes were intentionally sexual?

[@jougjimmadome]

@@Anna133199 how about this: we have made public exposure illegal for a reason, it is broadly considered a form of sexual harassment

[@thebasementfilmgroup]

Ok - let me add a small amount of context - I know a number of people in the UK who are sound engineers, runners, wardrobe people etc...... now I know for a fact that a friend of mine who was a wardrobe assistant working on a series (not DW) with Christopher Eccleston - and he does NOT hang out with the actors - he hangs out with the crew - now I don't know why that is exactly - but join the dots - Eccleston left DW for many reasons, but one reason was for how the crew were treated - it is also well known that Eccleston and Barrowman don't get on...... now I don't know the full story - no one does - but I am pretty sure many of the crew weren't happy about it - but kept quiet due to the nature of the job. Crew are badly treated and badly paid because they are "disposable" - take that how you wish. BTW - hope you are enjoying your holiday week, Nathaniel :)

[@averywavery2688]

I live near where DW is filmed and a friend of mine is in the camera crew for the show next door, so he sees a lot of the DW crew in the canteen. He said that Barrowman exposing himself was something that everyone on set was aware of, but Noel Clarke came entirely out of left field.

[@RobertMarshall]

That's because all the allegations on Clarke seem to be with non-Who released situations.

[@60sDalekAnimations]

@@RobertMarshall Unfortunately some DW stories seem to be coming to light now.

[@RobertMarshall]

@@60sDalekAnimations in regards to Clarke? I hadn’t seen those yet. But, it wouldn’t necessarily surprise me. :-(

[@JayceMaxwell]

I needed this video to show people over a decade ago. I was working in an environment where calling something "gay" was shrugged off, and people's responses to me getting upset were, "Oh, I forgot you were there." As if me not being there made it okay. Back then, I couldn't find the words to explain how bad that behavior was, that I was more upset that they continued using hate speech against me behind my back, and only behaved when I was there.

[@seto749]

Sadly, being anti-gay will always be okay. Our disliking it will only make it worse.

[@stames6678]

I’m sorry that happened to you, I hope things have been looking up this decade!

[@hevsreids6989]

I'm sorry you felt this way, but I had this conversation with some gay colleagues the other day. When we were kids in the early 2000s we described everything as "gay", it became part of our vocabulary and wasn't necessarily connected with being gay. We still use it in a every day conversations still in our 30s, gay and straight colleagues and friends. It was only when an American woman joined our team that she took offence to it, we never even realised it affected other people so much. I do think that the language we use has changed so much iver the past 10 years and there is a massive difference with taking offense between the UK and US.

[@JerrBear81]

I can relate to this. Back when "no Homo" was popular, a lot of my straight male friends would say it right in front of me. It stopped when it came to a point where I ended up killing one of them how uncomfortable the phrase makes me. Still, it's hard to speak up when you're one of two LGBTQ+ in the group and you're worried they may see you as oversensitive. This is why it's important for allies to speak up. It's no easy task to speak for yourself when you're outnumbered.

[@erichale838]

I can believe that John Barrowman was oblivious. He's a gorgeous human being who's entire life experience is that people like looking at him. Hell, they even put a joke about a naked Captain Jack in one of his early appearances on Dr. Who. However, I very strongly agree with your point that SOMEONE should have enforced professional behavior on set. Not doing that was an unqualified failure.

[@floraposteschild4184]

Not sure what you're saying, Eric -- that a "gorgeous" person who likes to have people looking at him has a license to be oblivious? The someone who should have enforced professional behaviour is JB himself. That he did not, as a man in his late thirties in a leading role, is an unqualified failure. Granted, he learned from the experience. About bloody time.

[@rog2224]

@@floraposteschild4184 I don't think they said the 'gorgeous' had licence to be, they said they're often indulged in their behaviour. It's like the Tom Robinson song lyric "Only the very young and the very beautiful can be so aloof" - by implication, someone less exalted wouldn't be indulged.

[@erichale838]

Flora: I didn't say he had a license, I said I could believe he was oblivious. There's a big difference. That being said, the recent comment that Barrowman was reprimanded does invalidate my original statement

[@arielsteinsaltz1956]

@@erichale838 The reprimand was in 2008, after the last incident, and he has not (as far as we know) done anything since, so it doesn't invalidate your statement as much as suggest that when the issue was brought to his attention he realized his mistake and stopped.

[@wakey87433]

Something people need to realise is JB comes from a theatre background. Spending a lot of time undressed backstage in theatre really isn't that unusual or taboo (or at least wasn't) and you regularly see the likes of Sir Ian McKellen, Dame Judy Dench and various British actors with Knighthoods and Damehoods who have spent a large part of their professional lives treading the boards making jokes on chat shows about it. So its easy to see how he could be oblivious going from somewhere where its almost the norm and going somewhere its not and assuming that some people in the different environment might find it uncomfortable even as a joke.

[@dragon1130]

No complaints does not mean it is okay. Most of the time it makes it worse.

[@trunkofmymind]

I think it’s worth bearing in mind that there were incidents after the 2008 apology that I and many others have seen discussed on video (which can almost certainly be retrieved if helpful or necessary), such as Eve recounting an incident on the set of Miracle Day (so presumably 2010 or early 2011 is when the incident occurred), and a con video discussing John groping one of his costars on the set of Arrow in I believe 2013, while said costar was chained up for a scene. Reading about those incidents and then hearing them be discussed made me profoundly uncomfortable because, as you point out based on what you’ve read, if it had been just the incidents prior to the apology, maybe there would be strong evidence that he’d learnt better. But the fact that there were incidents after the public apology to me doesn’t suggest the kind of sincerity that one would expect in someone who had genuinely learned and altered their behaviour. To me it hugely undermines the apology. I don’t know, I’m aware that I have a stronger reaction to this discussion than quite a few people, but for John to go back on his word and gleefully joke along with people recounting these stories at post-2008 cons... that just doesn’t sit right with me in the slightest.

[@mondayglow9014]

Thank you for this. I made the exact same points in a comment on your previous video. It's sad and discouraging to see so many people defending and minimizing Barrowman's behavior. I will go a step further and say that our assumption of his motivations - that he was just making poor attempts at humor - are just that, assumptions, likely rooted in our own affection for him. Because let's be honest, this was a grown man in a professional setting. No way in the world did he not realize that exposing himself to others without their prior consent was not ok. But he kept doing it repeatedly for his own gratification. I honestly don't buy that "fun" was his only motivation. Because true fun is always consensual. Everyone is in on the joke. Everyone is on an equal playing field, power-wise. This was not at all the situation here. And at the end of the day, intent doesn't really matter. He chose, over and over again, his own gratification and ego boosting over the comfort and safety of the people around him by exposing himself sexually to them without their explicit consent. This is not a mistake, or a slip up, or a joke that went awry. It's a pattern of abusive and entitled behavior.

[@siginotmylastname3969]

I also made those comments and was triggered by the first video+ comments. He's not not a predator because he didn't go further with sexual abuse, the way he acted was predatory. "excusable" sexual abuse like that is more like making a threat of further violence over and over as a "joke". And when you do it over years there's no excuse for not intending the threat - you've had time to think about it and you've done things you know aren't typically considered harmless.

[@mondayglow9014]

@@siginotmylastname3969 I'm sorry the comments were triggering to you! It can be so disheartening to see so much ignorance in our society around these issues, combined with the desire to excuse and absolve the people we admire. Empathy is already in short supply, but then it goes right out of the window when folks decide to sit in their own privilege. And you are completely right. Sometimes people do stupid stuff on a dare, which is ill advised and problematic already, but to do this repeatedly to the extent that it's a running joke about you - that's inexcusable. And no matter how often you do it, bottom line - it's a choice you are making to risk harming another in order to boost your own self gratification. It absolutely is predatory in that sense.

[@saffronia2992]

I'm confused by your comment. What do you think his motivation was if it wasn't 'fun'? Also how is he a predator or how was his behaviour predatory? Most people know and agree that he thought it was for fun but inappropriate.

[@mondayglow9014]

@@saffronia2992 Perhaps you should read my comment again. Fun is only true fun when everyone is in on the joke. Non-consensual sexual exposure in the workplace isn't "fun". It's sexual harassment and a misuse of power. His choice to continue this behavior in situations of significant power imbalance is what makes it predatory. It doesn't matter what he "thought" or how he justified it to himself. If someone breaks into your house and steals your stuff, would you accept their explanation that they "thought" they were entitled to your stuff and therefore took it? Or would you clearly see it as a violation that it was? People who perpetrate harm don't get to decide whether what they do is harmful or not. We have rules in our society for a reason. Being rich, famous, popular, or "just having fun" doesn't excuse a person for breaking those rules.

[@saffronia2992]

@@mondayglow9014 I think you're blowing this out of proportion. Firstly using one crime to explain another crime doesn't make sense. Theft is literally when someone thinks they are entitled to your property. Sexual harassment is different. Also predatory behaviour suggests he intentionally went out of his way to cause harm. It sounds like you're saying his actions are on par with the allegations against Noel Clarke or that he got some sexual gratification from it which he didn't. He didn't mean to cause harm or discomfort but it was caused by his actions therefore it's not predatory behaviour. And he didn't continue it-he aplogised and changed. Were you offended in the past when this happened when it mattered? You also didn't tell me what you thought his intention was if not fun.

[@meghanphillips3495]

I'm ashamed to realize I've never really seen these situations from the POV of the crew members. Thank you for making that point.

[@jamiedoe6822]

if he apologized and didn’t repeat the joke after someone help him realize his behavior was inappropriate , at what point do we forgive him for it? Never? 10 years? 2? It’s a serious question about how to balance addressing wrong behavior with healing .

[@bryanabbott6169]

"Nobody complained" is an old excuse in businesses and the entertainment industry for decades. Uproar happens, promises made to do something about it, and then it starts all over again when things die down.

[@jeremyadler9620]

Saying "nobody complained" is a bad excuse. You could say that about anything bad someone does! There could be a number of reasons why the people who had the thing done didn't want to complain! I don't get the people who said that as an excuse!

[@gozerthegozarian9500]

A random crew member wouldn't dare voicing any objection for fear of getting fired or suffering other repercussions for pissing off famous Mr. Co-star...

[@janechoy2073]

I have been in the audience of several Canadian convention appearances of John Barrowman. Personally, I do find that his appearances are the wildest and most x rated; sometimes felt borderline inappropriate compared to other convention guests, but I was not offended after that initial shock and learning that he is part of his whole brand. I had fun each time in his audience, and he always packed the house. He always treated audience members kindly. So publicly - I think he needs to change his brand as a way to correct his prior behavior. While on set - definitely he needs a behavior change, personal brand or not.

[@KingKhanAbz]

It's like how Chris Pratt flashed in Parks & Rec because he wanted to get a real reaction but he did get reprimanded.

[@novae756]

I know I'm nearly a year late, but thank you for this video. I felt really uneasy when I learnt about this kind of behaviour from John Barrowman. But since everyone seemed to be ok with it and laugh about it, I thought "maybe I'm wrong and that's a normal thing to do". But it's not. And as an autistic person often confronted with gaslight, it's a very dangerous narrative and/or way of thinking. "everybody is ok with it so you should be ok with it". No. Just no. So truly, thank you.

[@Holobrine]

I do think there are professional environments in which everyone has consented to that sort of thing (after all, nude scenes do exist and aren’t inherently problematic), but the Dr Who set wasn’t one of them.

[@lwaves]

Barrowman was also in one of those 'nude' scenes in DW. Or at least it was implied nudity as he may have worn something....then again....maybe not.

[@GrilloTheFlightless]

@@lwaves Are you referring to the scene where he whips out a gun from his backside in The Parting Of Ways? He was fully naked in that scene and originally he was shot from behind at one point with his butt on show. Barrowman said in a DWM interview that he was diss appointed that they left that bit out. Although I think that it may be an out-take in the DVD special features.

[@CritterKeeper01]

@@GrilloTheFlightless Thy did something similar on "Highlander" back in the 1990s over broadcast TV, with Duncan MacLeod standing up from a bathtub filmed from behind. The fandom forevermore referred to that scene with the abbreviation (_|_) ;-)

[@proserpina4448]

Actually in nude scenes the actors' genitals aren't exposed as they wear at least patches over their crotches or, depending on how much is to be seen on TV, skin colored underwear.

[@desirabbit6869]

I just found your channel and this was so healing for me. I'm dealing with some traumatic memories right now and just hearing that it was not okay for my boundaries and consent to be violated- I don't mean to make this about me, it's just, this is exactly what I needed to hear right now, so thank you.

[@qwispery]

I agree with everything you just said. Even though I always thought John Barrowman seemed like a nice guy I was always squigged out and amazed when I would hear the stories about him exposing himself. I do not understand how anyone found it funny at a workspace. It always made me uncomfortable. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

[@blehblehblehdracula]

It’s a lack of ✨professionalism✨ and it’s ✨gross.✨ Agreed. At least he grew, to current knowledge.

[@francheska3128]

Also it just seems like the main actors on torch wood all enjoyed these types of jokes but it’s important to remember everyone else exists and it’s not just you and your mates making a film in a room

[@CLJlovesmal]

As was evidenced when James Marsters was first on set.

[@AlatheD]

As a theatre person who has spent most of my time backstage or tech (crew) I am quite aware that cast is not the only people around. Thank you for mentioning it.

[@CritterKeeper01]

I think the place a behavior was coming from definitely matters, in terms of *how* bad it is. There's a difference between someone who wants to make others uncomfortable, and someone who wants to diffuse severe tension in a toxic workplace (but does so in an unprofessional manner). There are some people who simply haven't internalized the intense body-shaming so much of Western culture has normalized. Naked bodies aren't evil, it's all the sexually charged baggage we associate with them that makes them problematic. That body part is, let's face it, pretty goofy-looking! If a female cast member was making some of her parts wobble around, and he was making one of his dangle and sway and swing, strictly and only because it looks silly and makes people laugh in spite of themselves, and they both did it because there were some serious tensions building up that might explode in very unhealthy ways, and getting people to laugh diffused that tension, then it *might* have been the lesser of two evils in some very, very limited circumstances. However, as you say, the precedent is *also* important, and they both should have gotten reprimands to make it clear that no precedent of it being okay was being set. Which, at least in his case, seems to be exactly what happened - no word yet on whether his female co-worker was also reprimanded for her similar behavior.

[@protect_provide8031]

Really disappointed to learn this :(

[@firey171]

Thanks for expanding on this, I'm sorry that you felt unsettled by this ... and the reminder that inappropriate behavior is still inappropriate even if no one present was offended, yeah that feels needed in our current climate, especially when talking about public or work spaces. I really appreciate you.

[@Grotesque_denizen]

I've been on the receiving end of sexual harassment (from females and males) and going through that even though it was a long time ago, seeing all this about John Barrowman and the "it's a joke" kind of mentality and that it's intended as "harmless fun" just made my skin crawl because it just does make people feel uncomfortable. I'd like to think that if I hadn't been through that, that I'd still be saying this. But yeah this whole thing and some people's down playing of it has made my skin itch :/

[@shallendor]

When you see the amount of people that work on Doctor Who, in the Doctor Who - Cast & Crew Special music video. That's a LOT of people!

[@citrinedragonfly]

There was a new article in the Guardian on Friday that had a bit more about Barrowman's behavior in particular. Someone did finally speak up while he was working on Torchwood, and according to the article Jane Tranter, head of serials at the Beeb, did pull him in for a talk about the inappropriateness of his behavior, after which he stopped doing it, and he has been quoted since saying that in hindsight he realizes his behavior was wrong and there is no excuse for his inappropriate behavior. It really does sound like he's understood and grown from the experience.

[@sallyatticum]

Julie Gardner...

[@citrinedragonfly]

@@sallyatticum Thank you! My brain had a moment. Julie Gardner was the one in the Guardian article I read.

[@minaolenella869]

@@citrinedragonfly it was not about Torchwood, the complaint was over radio interview, were the complainer obviously could not see anything. But JBs behaviour changed after that complaint

[@WithADashOfPazazz]

@@minaolenella869 no it didn't, he did continued to behave inappropriately on the cw also.

[@minaolenella869]

@@WithADashOfPazazz it did. There is no talks about him showing his bits on CW set.

[@gideongrace1977]

Embarrassingly, I probably would have made this "nobody complained so it's okay" argument when I was younger. I was the type who went along so deeply that I literally believed this kind of crap. But it's thanks to people like you that I know better now. Thank you for always making such thoughtful, engaging videos.

[@NeilCWCampbell]

The thing about growing is that you can change

[@gideongrace1977]

@@NeilCWCampbell Totally! 😁

[@allyson87]

As someone who has been the first to say something is off about similar issues, "it's just a joke" and "everyone (ELSE) thought it was funny" are often use to silence those who are uncomfortable. Not to mention issues of groupthink and the bystander effect... how often do we go along with things because everyone else seems ok? i can't tell you how many times i've found out later that others were also not ok or that they only said something after someone else was able to brave the pushback first...

[@adammyers7383]

As a suicide attempt survivor, I’ve always felt the same about suicide jokes. They’re unbelievably common and for someone whom suicide was once an actual possibility and not an abstract concept it makes me feel really bad. But aside from that, as an ally to ALL groups, I do try to stand up for them whether someone from said group is present or not. That said, I’m not always perfect and post-2020 especially I’m really trying to learn what I need to be aware of and, by extension, put a stop to. I fully agree that some things are just purely wrong, no matter what.

[@mrrobotvoice8321]

Mocking suicide and making suicide jokes are 2 different things

[@adammyers7383]

@@mrrobotvoice8321 the intent may be different but the result is the same. That said I don’t want to assume you’re not speaking from personal experience, are you an attempt survivor as well?

[@carpevinum8645]

I worked in hospitality, which can be a very "loose" work environment in terms of bad taste humour and what not. In one job, at one period of time, I work week day graveyards. We were a very small close knit crew. We didn't have security like the weekend crew. There were 7 of us that rotated through a staff requirement of 6 people. Very close knit. I also worked the day and night shifts occasionally. The humour, jokes, conversations and pranks and what not pulled during graveyard shift really pushed the line. And we acknowledged that they were not appropriate in front of customers and we did take pride in our work. Behaviours I didn't blink and eye at on graveyard I never would have endorsed in other shifts, partly because customer traffic and staff numbers created a significantly larger audience, and from that our close knit family, what we called it, were all consensual. Still can't call our behaviour professional. And ultimately if upper admin turned around and wanted to reprimand and put out consequences for our behaviour, they were well within their right. In that job now, 1.5 decades later my behaviour would be different, and ultimately I am happy for my children the the narratives or "suck it up", "everyone does it", "you need to earn [in the form of basic human rights] respect", "you need to learn how to handle it", "have a sense of humour", etc are no longer automatically toted as the norm and that people are no longer expected just to suck it up. That is for all that those were some of the happiest days of my life (young, carefree, disposable income, untouched by pandemics or cyniciism). I can't honestly say that our behaviour was okay. It was a hard job in an industry (and time slot) disrespected by society at large and the culture developed as a coping mechanism for us. That doesn't excuse the behaviour. Does show a need for change. I don't excuse John Barrowman's behaviour. It was inappropriate. I can see how the industry creates environments where inappropriate humour can be seen as, and accepted as fact by many to be, an appropriate coping mechanism to get through the day. I am glad he has grown and matured. I think the bigger issue in this case is acknowledging the negative cultures and what fosters them, and educating the public and developing supports to take away that perceived need.

[@VeeTuTonic]

The most woefully undersubscribed channel I follow. Here’s to honesty, acknowledgment, understanding and togetherness.

[@landlighterfirestar5550]

I NEVER thought that his actions were okay, even if people laughed about it. What I AM sick of, is the people getting mad at him all over again when he clearly (by Vera’s research) has moved past his behavior and doesn’t condone it anymore

[@dubbingsync]

It’s only become a thing again now because of Noel dredging that story up from the past again.

[@LamaKickMojo]

@@dubbingsync Noel isn't dredging anything up. People just happened to find a video of him mentioning it in 2005

[@landlighterfirestar5550]

@@LamaKickMojo he did bring it up, but maybe not “dredge” it up

[@ItsButterBean1020]

@@LamaKickMojo the video was 2014

[@amandajmb6228]

"Some things are OBJECTIVELY not OK." Thank you!

[@amandajm]

didn’t eve myles say like her first day on set she went home to her husband like “this is a huge problem i have to talk to someone - my costar is in love with me but later i found out he was gay how silly of me to complain” that doesn’t make it okay girl!!! being gay doesn’t give you a free pass to harass women!!!

[@GrilloTheFlightless]

I guess one of the issues here is that it may be dangerous to assume that just because some people find certain behaviours funny and aren’t offended, then nobody finds it offensive. I guess JB should be making sure that everybody is on board with his sense of humour before behaving in this way and, if in doubt, just assume that someone may offended and keep your John Thomas tucked away in your slacks. Having dug around in some old news articles earlier today, I think someone may have been offended by it at some point and most likely complained. I say this because I found an article in which Julie Gardner confirmed that Barrowman was formally reprimanded for doing it on the set of Torchwood in 2008. Gardner continued to advise that, as far as she knows, he never did it on set again after that. Nobody reprimanded him for it when he did it on set in his Doctor Who episodes, suggesting that nobody saw fit to reprimand him. For this situation to change suggests that somebody on the set of Torchwood in 2008 complained. The Torchwood reprimand and the Radio 1 apology happened the same year, which is the last time that anyone seems to have witnessed any such behaviour from JB. Given the tone and words of his apology, and also given what we know about his personality, I don’t think JB intended to hurt of offend anyone. And given that nobody had complained before, given that co-stars on Who and Torchwood have joked about it, including on an Easter egg on a Who DVD release, perhaps he felt that it was ok to continue - and let’s be honest, the Radio 1 incident was actively encouraged by the presenters which must have validated his conduct in his behaviour in his own mind. The nature of his apology in 2008 suggests he now he realises the negative impact his behaviour could have on people and the signs are that he’s stopped. I also think that JB just has a different viewpoint regarding nakedness in general and doesn’t necessarily see it as something bad. I only say this because I recall an interview he gave in DWM many years ago he discussed that scene in Parting Of Ways where Jack whips out a small blaster from his backside whilst naked. They originally shot part of that scene from behind and his bare butt was on show. He said I the interview that he was disappointed that they didn’t use that shot in the episode (although, if memory serves, it’s in the DVD extras). But it is important that he realises that not everyone views nudity in the same way as him. I’m not particularly offended by nudity or people flashing, depending on the context. I don’t necessarily think that a penis or vagina or pair of breasts is any more offensive than a foot or the back of the knee. I feel that nudity is only taboo because of century after century of being told that our body parts are something to be ashamed of. But I don’t ever expose myself publicly because I understand that the majority of people don’t feel that way and I have to be respectful of that. I also feel that imposing ones nakedness on other people for purely sexual motivation is wrong and is a different, very dangerous, kettle of fish. I’m not trying to justify his conduct, but there is a wide gulf between his behaviour and what Noel Clarke is alleged to have done. There are lots of articles on KZbin voicing concerns that JB will be hounded, dropped from shows and investigated. Outside the world of public speculation, there is actually no evidence at this stage that this is happening. But if it were to happen it would, in my opinion, be completely unjust to punish him for actions that were already a matter of public knowledge since the mid to late 2000s, for which he ahead already been reprimanded for, for which he has already apologised for and for which there has been no further reported incident of since 2008. This is the past. It was known about before he was hired for season 12. It was known about before he got the gig on Dancing On Ice and it was known about when he was given the job of presenting Tonight’s The Night. It would be hypocritical if TV shows were to retrospectively drop him for these historical misdemeanours. Ultimately, I have no issues with JB. I can still enjoy his performances. He’s behaved inappropriately. I could even say he’s behaved like a complete idiot. But it doesn’t make him a bad person. On different, but slightly related, note, JBs penis is on show, for just a bit, in an episode of Torchwood - Children Of The Earth. Remember the bit where his body has been mostly destroyed in a bomb blast and the remains are kept in a prison cell monitored by CCTV? There’s a moment where, after much time and agony where his body completely rebuilds itself, he finally takes full form, naked on a slab. His captors are watching this on a CCTV monitor and his penis can briefly be seen. It’s episode 2, 40 mins 53 seconds to 40 mins 56 seconds for the eagle-eyed fan. One could argue that the viewing public didn’t ask for this unsolicited glimpse of his old feller, but because it’s on tv it becomes acceptable. If you’ve not seen it, I can testify that it was nothing particularly special!

[@dyingbreath7]

I met Barrowman at a convention and he is weird. He came out in a WW costume and had every member in the audience wearing a kilt step over him to so he could see if they were wearing them properly. At the time the whole audience and myself were just in the moment, looking back though it was just strange.

[@kristennorth3268]

Thank you for this. Those comments really got to me as well. Especially the ones about how "back in the day" no one cared. Plenty of us were upset by that sort of behavior in the 70s onward too. You just couldn't say anything. I believe the women who say they never minded, but they're mistaken about speaking for all women.

[@amberhancock2039]

Thank you so much for this video. I’d also like to add that just because they seem to be joking about it doesn’t mean they were ok with it either. Most of the time when they tell those stories it’s in a setting where the expectation is that it will be lighthearted and toe the party line that it was a prank. The backlash that some have and would have gotten for doing otherwise breeds an environment where you have to ‘laugh’ when the higher ups are laughing. Remember, we don’t only laugh when things are funny but also when they are uncomfortable and we want to appear nonthreatening. And at the time, Barrowman was the most popular actor on both shows. Tennant might have come close in DW series 3 but despite stories of fart contests, the Guardian has reported that he did settle the set down. But even so no one can ever know what was told or what was their comfort level at time or how they convinced themselves they needed to view it just to get the job done. The power dynamics thing is real and it effects everyone. Heck Eccleston left and was blacklisted for years by the BBC and he was supposed to be the name that brought in fans during series one. The top billing guy. The complicity of this just makes me really sad and tired.

[@VeganAtheistWeirdo]

1) Thank you for being someone who does the hard work of saying what needs to be said. Thank you for pointing out that so many other people work on a set besides actors, and that they matter, too. It hasn't happened since then, but twice in the span of a few years while I was still a teen, men exposed (and touched) themselves to me and my best friend. One was probably actually closer to our age, now that I think back on it, but the other was definitely a fully adult, should-have-been-arrested man. And both times, it made me feel sick. It was a violation. Now, I'm not equating what Barrowman did to what these idiots were doing, because I haven't heard anything about him touching himself, but there is still the chance that someone else on one of those sets felt sickened or violated by being put in that situation. 2) I just wanted to let you know that I think your eyes look amazing with those lashes and the rainbow eyeglass frames. 👀 I'm not someone who normally pays attention to makeup, but for some reason your eyes really make an impression, so I wanted to say, good job! 💜

[@Snuzzled]

I was so ready to disagree with you in regards to "it's not okay even if everyone consented" because consent matters, and I don't think a naked body is inherently obscene or sexual, but now I don't know what to think. You're absolutely right that some things are never okay even if consent is given, like bigoted "jokes" but I don't know. You've definitely given me food for thought.

[@Sushizombies]

As someone who unfortunately had to work with someone like that (was also a sexual harasser) at a university television network, THANK YOU for explaining why this behaviour is bad x

[@CritterKeeper01]

The being a sexual harasser makes it a very different situation, but I agree that the precedent is too easily abused by predators.

[@pallas9113]

For the "jokes" part... I kind of want to distinguish between jokes where the bigoted ideas are the punchline, and jokes where "bigots like this exists" is the punchline. A lot of people use dark/edgy humor specifically _because_ the subject matter is important to them, and joking about it can partially be their way of dealing with the anger. So they can focus on the amusing irony instead of the offensive message, that kind of thing. It's definitely not everyone's cup of tea but I guess I personally give the latter quite a lot of leeway...

[@seto749]

I see your point, but find that most of the time it's just pandering to people who will laugh because they heard the F word.

[@pallas9113]

@@seto749 irl I'd usually ask them to explain the joke. If it's the former, repeat the "joke" back to them and ask again "how exactly is that funny". If it's the latter - and in my experience most people would say it's the latter - be very vocal about "yeah, people can be _so_ close-minded and horrible" and basically spell out the punchline so no one can get the wrong idea. As for online... I try not to get into unproductive arguments online (sign)

[@trackeduser2577]

That cold open caused my blood pressure to spike. THANK YOU for this. I was harassed at work. one of the mistakes I made in my career was not taking a hint when the son of the owner of the company whipped this out as a partial defense of the harasser. I should have made getting out of that company (i.e. finding another job) a high priority. instead I made the mistake of believing that this wouldn't come back to bite me. It did. hugely. this was also the excuse I heard growing up over and over again. soon as someone calls someone else on a behavior, 'It was just a joke man, can't you take a joke?' is the first defense and everyone just circles the wagons, because it would not be said or done if the victim was of equal or higher rank, and lower rank people are not allowed to complain of their 'betters'.

[@ironsnowflake1076]

and this is why I subscribe to your channel... thoughtful, intelligent & kind ❤️

[@kellswitch]

When I was 8 I had an adult man expose himself to me. The cops asked me if I asked him to do this or flirted with him or in any way encouraged it and clearly didn't care. So what was my takeaway? Don't bother reporting, no one cares. Would adult me be upset if this happened again? Yes. Would I report it? I don't know, how safe would I feel doing so and what price am I willing to pay to do so?

[@Rik77]

Thanks I agree with you. I made a comment on the other video that might have made it seem I was excusing his as no one complained. But that wasn't what I was trying to say, I was simply distinguishing between him and Clarke. There were complaints made at the time and he was asked to stop, which as far as I know is the end of it. No one has since come forward making new accusations (I believe anyway).

[@cappuccinocrafts2412]

"But nobody complained" is the weakest defense and as you pointed out so well, does not even stand up because of power dynamics in a work setting.

[@flashlightning6000]

Being Gay is not a get out of Jail free card, although Mr Barrowman thinks it is. He should be charged like any other member of the public would be for Indecent exposure.

[@mrdr0161]

And so should Eve Myles, Naoko mori, and Gareth David Lloyd. They did this too. Why does no one seem to talk about them?

[@Venemofthe888]

Its definitely not ok and it might make some people look at him differently. I think he has learnt from those mistakes and hasn't done it since although he shouldn't of in the first place. He shouldn't of done it at all and thats not acceptable ever. Some people will probably never forgive him and others might. I just think everyone has a perspective and everyone will make up their own mind going forward.

[@timrob12]

Yes, what you say in this video is absolutely correct. I might be trying to defend John a lot, but that doesn't mean that I approve of his actions. What he did is still very wrong. I'm not going to deny that. Just so you know, people, I DON'T approve of showing your private parts in public.

[@andrealablanc5373]

From my own research, it seems that after he did, said action on the torchwood set, the higher-ups were informed and Judy Gardener(The Head of BBC Drama at the time) told him and his agent that they'd be reprimanded. It also seems from my research that he apologized after the 2008 interview on BBC Radio(Which was briefly mention) and he apologized again more recently, I do believe on the 7th of May, after this got brought back up. Note: this is from my research and is not a solid source, but this is what I've seen online. I think that Barrowman is attempting to apologize. I think if he's changing and admitting that he's done wrong and is trying to heal from the mistakes he made, then he deserves a chance in my mind, these events are from over 15 years ago and I personally believe there has been a lot of time for personal growth. Like them I have to admit I'm biased, I've grown up with Barrowman my whole life, I first saw him in Arrow, and being a musical theatre nerd I've seen a lot of the musical stuff he's done, lastly, seeing him in Doctor Who. I try to be unbiased and view this as someone who's changing, but of course, I'm going to root for him changing because it's someone I look up to. I think we've all honestly done stupid things we thought would get laughs out of people, doesn't make them right or nice, but I think owning up to the wrong you've done and moving on is the best way to move forward and heal the damage you've done and that's what it seems he's doing. so I'm going to try and give him a chance, I'm just really really hoping his didn't/doesn't do anything else dumb. You can't say what he did was okay because "nobody complained" he was someone in power on the show, that's scary, just because people don't say "No" doesn't make it okay, action is what proves change, don't try to invalidate the ones hurt by the actions taken, demeaning the actions don't change anything it just makes you look like your trying to make someone smaller, and ignoring it, ignoring a problem will just make it worst later. I'm sorry that this is so long I just wanted to put in my two cents also.

[@jackbennett9040]

'...or we could forget him permanently!' you ICON hahaha

[@OfficialRaveBlitz]

I agree it's VERY inappropriate to whip out your junk in a public or professional environment. I don't hate John Barrowman, but he should know better.

[@kellyschiess782]

You're amazing, and I'm so glad you took the time to consider and respond to innappropriate behavior of our fave. Yes, our fave could, and it's not ok! 💚

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

The two thoughts I had while listening to the matter are that of Vic Mignogna and the actor (can't remember his name off the top of my head) who played Will Zimmerman on "Sanctuary." One was accused of sexual harassment and supposed claimed (while doing voice-over work) "Silence is acceptance" after not being told whether the work was good or not, the other was known as an on-set joke to drop his pants (seen during BTS moments on DVD. While there can be people who will joke around the idea of claiming "no one complained" is also difficult to deal with in the Me Too era because there might be people who either can't complain or aren't "in the know" enough to really make it stick

[@charlieinthefog]

Thank you for your thoughts, I'm new to the channel, but these last weeks watching you feels like I've always been here. ily ✨💜

[@frunobulaxthepoodle5334]

A lot of those responses remind me of Louis CK's apologists. "He got permission so it's okay! Don't kink shame!" Dude wasn't on a date with these women; they were people he knew professionally. Huuuuuuuge contextual difference.

[@gozerthegozarian9500]

Oh hell, yes! The way they twist themselves into knots in defense of that creep beggars belief!

[@rog2224]

If memory serves, there was also a massive power imbalance on the CK pleasuring himself thing. They either worked *for* him, or at least at his whim. You don't say 'no' when you're at risk of being fired for doing so... it was coercive and nasty.

[@Quirderph]

@@rog2224 So basically, he's the missing link between Barrowman and Clarke?

[@thedirectorschair1054]

Great video. As an example of the power imbalance in entertainment. The first time I worked in professional theatre, I was hit on by an older, very famous, gay man. In retrospect he didn't really do more than make a pass at me and didn't do anything wrong, but I was very young and was not comfortable. I mentioned to the Director that I was being 'sexually harassed', which is not language I would use now. But still... The Director replied: "He makes me money. You don't. Get used to it."

[@TonyPaulazzo]

I'm subbed, disagree with you on some things and like John Barrowman but on this I 100% agree with you and had the same thoughts myself, that no one even thought to ask the behind the scenes crew about their feelings on it. Peace!

[@sara_sah-raezzat5086]

Norms change over time and that's good. People passively accept things at one time that they later realize they should have been more aware of. I know there were several work environments where I accepted disrespectful even abusive behaviour because it was the norm. Making clear that his behaviour was and is unacceptable is how we change the norms so people don't do this stuff and if they do those who are uncomfortable are empowered to ask for it to stop.

[@DRockeh]

If food services didn't like it, I could totally see them not saying anything, out of fear of being replaced.

[@saffronia2992]

Whilst I agree with most things said, what people are not emphasising is that these things are in the past and he has apologised, changed and learned from it. Most fan pages I've seen (particularly on instagram) are vilifying him to the same degree as they are Noel Clarke which is unfair. The motto of most people nowadays is 'educate yourself' and I find it ironic that most people haven't seen his apology or that know that this wasn't recent. He has changed and knows it was wrong so I don't see yhe problem. Isn't that what we want people to do?

[@melodypond8008]

According to Julie Gardner at least one person did complain in 2008 because she had a sit down with Barrowman and his agent to discuss his behaviour and make sure it didn't happen again, which to be fair it doesn't seem to have ever happened after that incident. I think intent is an important aspect to be sure, but he has acknowledged himself on many occasions that it was unprofessional and he has since changed his attitude towards his actions and apologised sincerely on multiple occasions. In my opinion, though of course still not ok, what Barrowman did is incomparable with Clarke's actions.

[@cherylemmanuel744]

I agree.

[@beebeelicious]

I complained about similar actions by a man at work to John Barrowman. He used to offer me money for oral sex in front of my staff. Everyone used to laugh, I didn't. When I did complain, I was accused of stealing and sacked. So yes, people stay quiet.❤️

[@VenusAD]

THANK YOU! I get that everyone wants to dismiss it because of who it is, and most of us like him a whole lot, but it's still unprofessional, inconsiderate, and not remotely acceptable.

[@marissawilson9460]

Thank you Vera. You are absolutely right. Even when you speak out about abuses that happen on set to your Union, they more often than not side with Production since the accuser was a Director, an AD or an actor and you are a background performer, daily player etc. It’s an incredibly toxic and corrupt situation that is still happening. Not all people have the ability to hire a lawyer so they turn to their Union only to be betrayed because you don’t hold the power. THEY do.

[@WithADashOfPazazz]

"Nobody complained" I have seen about a dozen articles all confirming that people DID complain.

[@nipponhakkyou]

Another fantastic video. "No one complained" is always exhausting in all contexts, especially when someone personally knows it's wrong but are brick walled by people who could change it.

[@justuscrickets]

You're absolutely right that normalization and dismissiveness toward these lesser(?) acts of impropriety in professional environments is no less wrong, just because "nobody complained".

[@arielsteinsaltz1956]

A lot of people don't understand the concept that people who are generally decent people (which I still believe John Barrowman is as of now) can still make mistakes and do wrong things, so they jump on trying to defend behavior (of others or themselves) so they can justify still liking the person. If someone has generally had a good track record, and made a mistake in the past that they have grown from, you can like them and still acknowledge that what they did was wrong. Growing and changing from your mistakes is a mark of good character. Exposing yourself at work is not.

[@ninjagamer1359]

Except Barrowman is losing work now over this. It’s ridiculous and not fair. He needs defending.

[@ShaneJMcEntee]

He apologised in 2008, never denied it and apologised again now when people should be talking about and worrying about Clarke's serious allegations . Let it go. Move on.

[@jahmeljones2]

I don't know why John Barrowman is being accused when Noel Clarke is the horrible one in this situation. John Barrowman is an amazing actor who loved to make people smile and laugh. John Barrowman did do some bad things but he didn't think they would have the effect it did. He has apologised and is still a brilliant person. Noel Clarke is out of order. It has come up in the news somewhere that Noel claims 'He can get any white woman he wants'. Noel's wife is a white woman which makes the situation even worse. I cannot believe how much he has ruined his ovmen career.

[@gobatron6589]

You’re very good at breaking these things down for people and giving good understand and reasoning. Thank you I’m sure it’s very helpful for some and it helps me get confirmation and clarity on the thoughts I’ve already had. I know it’s shit to even have to talk about this stuff but good work.

[@SalandraG]

Thanks so much for making this video. It was very well laid out and I was excited to see you responding to these kinds of comments. I was a little uncomfortable with your use of the phrase "low on the totem pole" because I have heard Native creators ask white people not to use that phrase unless talking about a literal totem pole. Thanks again for all your insight!

[@charlielarson1582]

Often folks don't come forward because people in power are complicit in bad behavior, the workplace environment, and/or they don't feel safe doing so. I've had many experiences like that, both myself and others I know. I know people who have accepted that people are just going to behave like this and their best option is to be quiet, ignore it, let it happen knowing that others are affected as well as themselves. This norm needs to change. My workplace environment has improved since I started reporting things. This isn't the case with every job I've had, but at least then I know I did my part and things are on the record. I encourage others to do the same so long as it is safe for them to do so.

[@jbach1738]

I'm with you. It's definitely not cool to behave in this way in a professional sense. I did see an interview with some head honcho or something, who said that at soon as it was brought to her attention, she addressed it with him, and he didn't do it again. I mean, it was horribly unprofessional, and absolutely not a way anyone should behave at their job. However, we all do stupid and unprofessional shit sometimes. If it's brought to our attention and we insist on continuing the behavior, then we have a major problem. He apparently stopped the behavior, and has not repeated it. Do I think he deserved to be reprimanded, and told to stop this behavior? Absolutely. Do I think he should never be allowed to work again? Absolutely not. He did something juvenile and stupid, learned from it, and changed his behavior. That's really all we can ask of any human. I hope others are just as understanding of me the next time I do something stupid. Because I am only human. I will do something horrible eventually, again.

[@wanderingaesthetics7849]

Working in the theatre/entertainment/the arts can give you a skewed perspective. I was a substitute run crew (backstage) member for a production of Singing in the Rain. Nobody warned me that the lead actor would get offstage after the big rain scene and immediately take ALL his clothes off- dressing rooms are far away and he was completely soaked. He tried to be modest, but my track took me past (and into) his changing area. (I didn’t know this at the time I was hired for the job.) The costumer had to help him with the process. (He had to get to the dressing rooms, dry off from head to feet, put on a new costume, new mic, new makeup, and be ready to go in about 10 minutes.) There are many, many situations where modesty is just not an option. I once had to have a costumer sew the crotch of my pants- as I was wearing them- right before I made an entrance. (There wasn’t time to get my belt and shoes back on and off to have her sew.) She was fine, I was pretty uncomfortable. Not to mention entire costume changes that have to take 30 seconds or less which require you to have a dresser see and touch all sorts of uncomfortable places. (In the theatre, as an actor, You don’t often know this kind of thing will be required until right before first dress rehearsal.) Another show I worked was the Full Monty. The guys would occasionally hangout in rehearsal naked and/or backstage as a way to help them feel more comfortable onstage and/or deal with their nerves. Same for a production of Equis. The latter two, you know there’s going to be some level of nudity going in. The first one, I didn’t... Or there was the time, weeks into rehearsal while working on a new play, that the director, lead actor, and playwright all agreed that nudity was pivotal to the moment. (The actor was the one who brought it up- so he wasn’t being coerced.) So he performed the scene nude. None of the other actors or crew could have known about it (it was a new play) before deciding to do the show. Which is all to say: there are a lot of times nudity happens in the arts/entertainment. And being around such nudity in a professional environment can give you a skewed view of what’s okay and what’s not. (Look how much nudity I’ve mentioned in LIVE THEATRE and there’s way less than in film!) Or at least it creates a very casual attitude that skews your perspective. Which isn’t an excuse. But it truly does distort the lens through which you see these things.

[@wanderingaesthetics7849]

Also: I’m not defending anyone. I have no idea who these people are and I don’t like Doctor Who... which seems to be the show they worked on?

[@beckyvan-orden7540]

I absolutely agree - theatre dressing rooms and backstage areas and modesty frequently don’t go together. You learn pretty quick not to care and just get on with it. I can absolutely believe that JB had this mindset at the time.

[@wanderingaesthetics7849]

Oh yeah! You’re right! I forgot that, unless you’re a big star, you typically share a group dressing room with ALL the other actors. (Sometimes by gender, sometimes not.) And maybe have to do your complete costumes changes just backstage. (Some places, site specific for example, don’t even have dressing rooms.) I have gotten so used to it, that I will sometimes start to completely change my clothes in public areas (ex: changing from a wet bathing suit before getting into my car) and have to catch myself or be reminded that I’m not in a theatre. It’s utterly and completely unintentional.

[@sd-bj6wd]

Very sound analysis, you’ve changed my mind about the Barrowman fiasco which, as far as I’m aware, I’m grateful for