Country Zoning: When Two Decades of Inequality Ruled Australian Football

Upon winning their first premiership in 1966, a decade of prosperity seemed within the grasp of St. Kilda. Unfortunately for the Saints, this was not to be the case. Instead, with the introduction of a system called “Country Zoning”, the next two decades would be a disaster for the club as they’d combine with Melbourne for 10 wooden spoons, while Hawthorn and Carlton, who had finished outside of finals that year, would go on to win 11 premierships between them. So what was this system? Why did the VFL see the need to implement it and how did it shape two decades of league football?
Written by Darcy Milne
Created by Andreas and Zachary Baruhas
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[@leowillee]

babe wake up new footy a2z just dropped

[@arwon2227]

The Swans essentially not even getting part of Victoria, coupled with the decline of their South Melbourne metro zone, was a huge part of what made them unviable to the point of being sent to Sydney.

[@jasonfreestone9944]

South Melbourne used to have Spotswood, Newport, Williamstown and Altona in their metro zone. This seemed bizarre when I first heard this, especially pre 1978, when the West Gate Bridge was opened when that part was then connected to Melbourne. Traditionally very much a Footscray area.

[@growdaddy4281]

AFL sucks. NRL is Australia's code champion!

[@Podgorski37]

​@@growdaddy4281you wish

[@christopherharvie8716]

@@growdaddy4281yeah that’s what it has the most fans… Oh wait.

[@iwenttobunnings7868]

​@@growdaddy4281As someone who is also a huge NRL fan (up the chooks!), why did you watch this video? It's clearly out of your interest. Let us who enjoy AFL watch it in peace my dude.

[@julianfebbraio7125]

Impacts still being felt today as the growth of the league corresponded with the success of those successful teams. They have cemented larger fan bases for the most part as a result.

[@rockylum6947]

NHL hockey ran on a similar system until universal player’s draft was introduced in the 1960s. Canada was divided in zones where the six teams had exclusive rights to young prospects in their assigned zone. For example,if a young player joined a youth hockey team anywhere in the province of Quebec,he automatically became the property of the Montréal Canadiens.

[@anthonypirera7598]

Leigh Matthews signed with St. Kilda in 65 or 66 as a young teenager but once the zone came in that went out the window.

[@SOmoeononononon]

Never new that. Amazing!

[@alansimmonds9030]

No he never signed with them, but he was zoned to them as a junior until the zones changed again in 1967?....They changed & were tweaked quite a few times over the journey I believe.

[@anthonypirera7598]

@@alansimmonds9030 I will need to read the letter again

[@aarongocs2798]

rudiculous that saints didnt get frankston area

[@anthonypirera7598]

@@aarongocs2798 who is from Frankston?

[@doylersafl8728]

Any chance of a video essay about international rules football. As an afl fan from Ireland, I'd love to know what happened to the game and whether people stopped taking it seriously or if it stopped being enjoyable

[@benjaminwilliams951]

Interesting to see what has happened with the clubs that experienced success under the country zoning system, particularly Essendon, Hawthorn, Richmond and Carlton. While Richmond and Hawthorn experienced falls, both eventually rebuilt their clubs and have experienced premiership success in the modern national competition. While for both Carlton, and Essendon, have to question whether it has been a failure to adapt, and grow their clubs in the modern era. The Blues problems can definitely be traced back to the sanctions for salary cap breaches for which the club has never recovered. However, for the Bombers, since the 2000 Premiership, and 2001 Grand Final, the club seems to have never recovered from the Kevin Sheedy era. Was it a failure to adapt?

[@1979RayDay]

We gotta also remember that interstate recruiting played a huge part in the tipping the scales towards the richer clubs.

[@guodade2239]

I have often said that without country zoning, interstate recruiting would not have grown so rapidly and it would have taken longer to develop a national competition. Had Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon, Geelong and Richmond retained their unlimited access to country players (and, in fact, to players from newly urbanising outer suburbs which were zoned at the same time country zoning began) they would minimally have possessed less need to recruit from interstate.

[@BryanLikesCandy]

Great video! An in-depth video on the Academies and how they work (both Northern and Next-Gen) would be great! Would like to see the pros and cons of the systems laid out, considering they are designed to catch players who would otherwise not play the game, and growth - particularly in NSW - is key to better financial security for the League.

[@smorgass7875]

I second this

[@OwoehaShehnsna]

Same this would be a good video

[@Rebekahlavy]

The Swans academy has been great. I know many AFL fans hate our academy the most it sometimes seems but it helps us a lot. We have players who have no interest in leaving or a very small chance of wanting to leave. As they have been brought up by the Swans already as a kid until they get drafted into the AFL. As well they cant really use some excuse like being homesick. The NRL is becoming less popular in NSW. People still play but its not the same like it was 10-15 years ago or even a bit less. NRL has stayed big in the West and South of Sydney but AFL has risen and have taken over more so in the North and East of Sydney. Which is where Errol and Mills are from

[@Magpie_Mark92]

Also, Collingwood was given the Western Border football league, which out of the 8 clubs in that league, only the 4 clubs on the Victorian side were eligible to Collingwood so we couldn't touch anyone from the South Australian side

[@sentimentalbloke185]

Their battle to get Phil Carman from there is a story unto itself.

[@Chapps1941]

​@@sentimentalbloke185I'm glad he came to Norwood

[@insertnamehere5809]

Collingwood got some good zones in Melbourne, especially in the northern suburbs

[@Magpie_Mark92]

@insertnamehere5809 Yes, that's what kept us competitive. If it wasn't for that, we would have stayed on the bottom like South Melbourne and St Kilda, but we were still screwed in the country zoning as the 20 years of it Collingwood produced the fewest star country players followed by South Melbourne and Melbourne

[@Magpie_Mark92]

@@sentimentalbloke185 we had to play tug of war with the SANFL for him

[@iqweaver]

The conversation is generally "what is good for clubs"; zoning was very bad for a lot of players. If you were in a strong zone your 'owning' club would run clinics and carnivals etc and develop the young talent. If you were in a bad zone clubs would decide not to throw good money after bad and not invest. The big beneficiary was Hawthorn who's metro and country zones adjoined. They could run them easily as one big zone and from the comfort of Melbourne.

[@guodade2239]

Hawthornʼs metro and country zones did not adjoin, actually. The clubʼs metro zone was bounded outwards by zones allotted to Essendon, Richmond, North Melbourne and South Melbourne. However, itis true that it was very easy, vis-à-vis any other club except perhaps Carlton, for Hawthorn to run its metropolitan and country zones as one. That may have solidified those clubsʼ opposition to rotating zones.

[@falchoon]

Stewart Loewe was zoned to Hawthorn and rejected. He then went to St Kilda under 19's

[@shannonpincombe8485]

Fat lot of good that did him. He might have played in a few Premierships. He chose poorly.

[@jeremybean-hodges6397]

@@shannonpincombe8485 rejected by hawthorn, not the other way round

[@falchoon]

If you chose the Metro zones you'd choose the areas that cover Private schools, if you chose your country zones you'd choose urban growth areas classed as country. Hawks had both.

[@OwoehaShehnsna]

I love videos. The AFL needs more KZbinrs like you.

[@dhenderson1810]

Interesting fact. In the 70s and 80s, only five teams won a premiership and 7 played in Grand Finals. Since 1998, every team other than Gold Coast has played in the Grand Final. Collingwood, Geelong, Sydney Swans, Melbourne, Richmond Western Bulldogs all broke their premiership droughts.

[@TheVision_13]

So in conclusion, 6 of Carltons premierships shouldn't count Fantastic video as always I had no idea about this at all

[@leaderofnoone9087]

No Carlton six premierships should count. It's more like it shouldn't have got to that to begin with. To be fair calton did nothing wrong. It's more like the VFL screwed up by bringing this rule in instead.

[@BryanLikesCandy]

@@leaderofnoone9087 "Carlton did nothing wrong" - For once! ;-)

[@iankearns774]

Carlton were extremely professional and were the benchmark in terms of sponsorship and recruiting business people to the club and thats why they were successful. When the VFL went all socialist Carlton suffered because their methods of recruiting players went out the window (open chequebooks). Probably why Old Jack did the under the table thing but you would be mistaken in thinking other clubs didn't do that as they did. They just didn't get caught.

[@TheVision_13]

This is obviously a joke btw lol

[@ImGodTheMaryBanger]

haha as an essendon supporter i started to read this and thought it was going to be an argument for essendons premierships being more important than carltons. going to be interesting to see who gets to number 17 first, i got a feeling collingwood will tie with us first making a 3 horse race and for this i kinda wanna see carlton back in the 8 so all 3 of us can have an exciting battle for number 1 premiership count. thouh if its not the bombers im going to wish i didnt wish for this haha

[@trentmiles4116]

Absolutely love the content. In depth and informative

[@delinquent1807]

Really good job putting this video together, keep it up!

[@piratekerry]

Great information and very interesting - well done A2Z team! 👏👏👏

[@Nick-Elder]

Great content! I dig the history of footy stuff. Very unique on KZbin.

[@liamschulzrules]

Style and delivery completely rips off Tifo

[@scottwalker6141]

This was amazingly produced. I loved the easy to understand speech and the simple images that went with the dialogue... rare in AFL/VFL videos. As someone from Ballarat with a stature better suited to mining it did sadden me a little however.

[@guodade2239]

The video is informative for those lacking knowledge of football history. Nonetheless, more detail about the era preceding country zoning is needed, for example: - how, as discussed in 1979ʼs "Up Where Cazaly", the traditional inner suburbs had seen their populations decline and their old populations replaced by new immigrants much more interested in and knowledgeable about soccer - how the "big five" of Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon, Geelong and Richmond were able to expand tbeir support bases to new suburbs retaining preference for Australian Rules - how, contrariwise, South Melbourne, Fitzroy, Footscray and North Melbourne could not expand their supporter bases and were left with followings collapsing alarmingly. [A crude calculation based upon "Up Where Cazaly" would show Fitzroy losing four-sevenths of its supporter base in just thirteen years between 1951 and 1964]. - how the contrasting supporter demographics of the "big five" and the "soccer belt" clubs were making the VFL a two-tier league. [The situation of Hawthorn, Melbourne and St. Kilda was more complex].

[@HolyWoodProducti0ns]

Great video as always

[@kenchristie9214]

In 1973 North Melbourne decided they were going to "buy" a premiership team. Firstly they lured Ron Barassi from Carlton and set to recruiting star players from other clubs around Australia. Barry Cable (Perth) John Burns (East Perth) Malcolm Blight (Woodville) Gary Dempsey (Footscray) Brent Crosswell (Carlton) Stan Alves (Melbourne) and Barry Davis (Essendon) were amongst those elite players recruited.

[@lloydhenderson3880]

And they went to 5 grandys in a row

[@mjames4709]

Yep, they were handed premierships.

[@lloydhenderson3880]

@@mjames4709 handed, we recruited from other teams and interstate

[@Igloo3471]

Doug Wade from Geelong as well

[@guodade2239]

​@@Igloo3471There was a short -lived ten-year rule that allowed North to recruit Wade, Rantall and Barry Davis. Alongaide a strong Under-19 team from their newly granted zones, that was what turned North into a league power off a 1972 season in which their senior and reserve grade sides went a combined 3-41. Historically, North was the poorest club in the VFL with the smallest following. Although not so severely affected as fellow "soccer belt" clubs South Melbourne, Fitzroy and Footscray by outmigration and replacement (by Southern and Eastern Europeans preferring soccer) of its supporter base, North certainly did suffer such erosion and from a smaller original base. Between 1960 and 1972 its senior success rate was under 29 percent.

[@steverogers3959]

Mid Murray League was in the Richmond zone with Sunraysia League, not Geelong as stated in the video.

[@PatrickMaher4]

I would like an episode on Fitzroy!

[@chrisferguson237]

Great piece of history. Well done.

[@AussieOutlaw]

GREAT VIDEO . Something that is not often discussed is the story how StKilda actually cheated The Moorabbin Football Club out of their Ground

[@MrBlazemaster525]

LOL Moorabbin fucked themselves

[@sentimentalbloke185]

The original proposal was that the team be renamed St Kilda-Moorabbin for the first 10 years after the move (ie. to 1975) then the club would be called simply Moorabbin.

[@jasonfreestone9944]

Was that the VFA Moorabbin? Because after this Footscray we’re thinking of doing a similar thing to the VFA team Sunshine at Skinner Reserve. But thankfully stuck to the Western Oval on Geelong Road/Princes’s Hwy which wasn’t lost in a suburban area.

[@AussieOutlaw]

@@jasonfreestone9944 The club entered the VFA in 1951. A clash of jumpers with Brunswick the team had to change and they choose the blue and white like North Melbourne. Its Federal League home ground, the Dane Road Reserve, was not up to VFA standards; so, in 1951 the club played at Cheltenham, and in 1952 moved into the Moorabbin Oval, which the Moorabbin Council had developed during 1951.[1] The Kangaroos made the 1954 and 1955 finals series without success but in 1957 they helped eliminate premiership favourite Williamstown after defeating them by two points in the Semi Final. Moorabbin, who were coached by Bill Faul, took on Port Melbourne in the Grand Final, whom they had not once beaten since joining the league. In another upset, Moorabbin won comfortably to claim their maiden VFA premiership. In 1958, Moorabbin reached the Grand Final once more, but were forced to return the following weekend after drawing with Williamstown. The replay was won by Williamstown, the first and only instance of a grand final replay in the VFA. By the 1960s, the club was one of the strongest both on and off the field in the VFA. Its 1962 match payments to players of £12 for a win and £6 for a loss were the highest in Association history.[2] The club was minor premier in three consecutive years from 1961 until 1963, and reached the 1962 and 1963 Grand Finals. I

[@sentimentalbloke185]

@@AussieOutlaw The old Moorabbin club was booted from the VFA as it didn't have exclusive use of its ground once St Kilda shifted there. The Moorabbin council was the prime mover in the shift as it actively courted a number of VFL clubs to come to Linton Street on the promise it would redevelop the ground. Moorabbin briefly revived as a VFA entity in the early '80s but didn't last very long. A similar thing happened at this time with North Melbourne & the Coburg ground.

[@jddamc5275]

As a Saints fan, cheers for this!

[@user-mu6uw3cv9w]

Idk as a saints fan I kinda wish I never knew this, just makes me all the more sad that we were kinda dogged all those years when we could've been elite

[@TPW13]

love the TIFO style content for AFL well done

[@thisislilraskal]

This channel is awesome.

[@harrybaruhas5576]

Great Video. Seemed to stirred the Suburban Rivalry. As a Richmond Support, the Tigers did pretty well also recruiting from Tassie.

[@lunch2102]

This kind of video would be great for all the haters of the teams with the least premierships to watch, essentially it's the leagues fault for allowing them to struggle while others cashed in, makes you wonder how much under the table the leaders of the VFL were getting

[@JonJon-dn7hu]

Great content

[@LodgicalThoughts]

Great video mate I think academy players hinder the draft as well, but tough to balance. One thing I would like to see go is zones for academies, I understand rich clubs benefit from this but the standard of play benefits as more kids from talent rich areas will get a crack.

[@user-uw8ru7eq5c]

Can you please do a video on the time Carlton nearly couped North Melbourne and took over the club?

[@AmackBT1]

Mate you’re videos are absolutely unbelievable! Keep up the good work!

[@fwarquar]

Awesome thanks

[@thefmi5209]

Good work

[@fletcherburns2134]

I don't understand why clubs weren't just zoned to closely geographical area St Kilda- peninsula, Bulldogs- Ballarat. Etc. I know I idea never worked out as intended but and least it would have made more sense.

[@spirosthomas2975]

all 12 teams minus Geelong were basically metropolitan Melbourne teams, it wouldn't have worked. How would you decide Melbourne, South Melbourne, North Melbourne and Richmonds zoning?

[@mjames4709]

Then Carlton would’ve been screwed with many newly arrived non-footy migrants in their zone. Check who the VFL President was at the time and follow trail.

[@guodade2239]

​​@@spirosthomas2975Iʼve often imagined "fletcherburns2134" ʼs suggestion above myself, sometimes thinking of how to do it on a map projection (with multiple possible results) . Its only advantage over actual country zoning is that it might have been possible to adjust boundaries without rotating zones.

[@jackaspley3283]

Zoning bakes in unequal outcomes and shouldn't exist in any form in the league. The fact that the AFL has returned to zoning (albeit a watered down version) is remarkable given its history of failure as laid bare in this video.

[@Cheaze56789]

Talk about the affects of the father-son rule considering how much impact its had in the last 15 years

[@jeremybean-hodges6397]

At least the father-son rule is relatively equal for the Victorian clubs, though I agree it disadvantages expansion clubs. Obviously, Geelong were the big winners out of the Father/Son rule, getting Ablett, Scarlett and Hawkins. That said, Geelong were pretty smart about it - they got the kids on board early, knowing that they were the only club if the running if they were any good.

[@RobertBatchelor]

@@jeremybean-hodges6397 But Geelong didn't get Ben Cousins.

[@jeremybean-hodges6397]

@@RobertBatchelor arguably a win there too :)

[@falchoon]

@@jeremybean-hodges6397 under current rules they would still have had Ablett and Hawkins (and Scarlett) but would have missed Bartel and Selwood.

[@jeremybean-hodges6397]

@@falchoon yeah - it was actually the recruitment of Hawkins that changed the rule. Arguably no Stevie J if we had to pay properly for Ablett.

[@HRinc]

And Carlton raided SA at the time too

[@user-kk4zw5jo4t]

So good!! Love the content 👏👏🤝

[@andrewburns3524]

Never knew this! Thanks for a great video. Go dees!

[@jackphillips3433]

Would love a video about North Melbourne in the 90s what made them so good how they pioneered Friday nights and how they probably fell a premiership short!

[@jeremybean-hodges6397]

I don't know that they did quite fall a flag short, to be honest - West Coast and Carlton were clearly the best sides in 1994 and 1995, then North had a poor year in 1997. While they shot their own feet off with poor kicking in 1998, that was made up by Essendon tripping over their own bootlaces in 1999. Two flags is probably about right.

[@jackphillips3433]

@@jeremybean-hodges6397 93,94,98, they absolutely had chances 97 from what I know injuries played a factor

[@jeremybean-hodges6397]

@@jackphillips3433 they had a chance in 93 and 94, but weren’t the best team in it. Carey was injured in the first half of 97 but they weren’t really close to the Saints, Dogs and Cats.

[@lastbreathsigh]

if this video is solely about the VFL it shouldn't be titled "When Two Decades of Inequality Ruled Australian Football" ... country zoning existed in SA and WA as well

[@BigBlack81]

I would love to see a further video on this. SA and WA footy content like this in a Tifo style would be GOLD.

[@01EvangelionUnit]

I’ve always been interested in foreign sports. Great video, you’d never hear about any of this in Queensland.

[@mjames4709]

What sport do you play in country?

[@Yt.Extrakt]

This was how my uncle played for the bulldogs

[@brendanhartzer5712]

The bulldogs won the spoon in 82, the magpies in 76 and the lions in 80 but on the table at 5:50 Collingwood won 2, it should be Collingwood 1 , Footscray 1 and Fitzroy 1

[@brianambrosemcmahon8531]

An area that deserves attention is the recruitment of interstate players from 1979 tob1987 when the AFL was introduced . Players like platen Hunter Ralph Bosustow Bradley motley kernanhan .

[@lunch2102]

As I understand it, the whole of SA was zoned to Carlton

[@malcolmjackson7274]

@@lunch2102 Hunter, Ralph & Bosustow were from W.A

[@lunch2102]

@@malcolmjackson7274 so they basically had the rest of the country? I know north got a few out of WA, Barry Cable, Phil and Jimmy Krakour, Ross Glendinning

[@benbutts9203]

Good vid

[@rafiwerdiger]

please look into the transition from richmond almost folding in the 90s to the build back all the way to the top

[@guodade2239]

If you were to do that seriously you would need to also look how Richmond declined after being billed as the team of the decade following their 1980 premiership triumph. One would need to look at how demographic changes in Richmondʼs receuuting zones [Sunraysia, the area around the City of Waverley] affected the quality of their recruits, and how ill-judged recruiting and coaching changes prolonged the decline. Only then can Richmondʼs later history be understood.

[@fredbloggs8362]

But ya not factoring in wealthy clubs buying interstate players for overall success. It was actually a cool way to attach regional areas to a club.

[@weirdo1083]

Interesting video even though i am a rugby league bloke cheers.

[@anthonypirera7598]

I was enjoying seeing your video on the Zoning system but I don't think it's that right between Carlton and Hawthorn from the late 70's to the late 80's both them two clubs were full of interstate players would you like me to make a list? Compared to other clubs with interstate players at that time.

[@fredbloggs8362]

Exactly, zones weren’t necessarily a bad thing and were a pretty minor factor compared to Carlton literally buying all the most talented SA players.

[@Joshozanne]

the f/s and academy's has made norths rebuild alot slower could've had ugle-hagan, dacios, ashcroft and this year potential walter in one team.

[@lesnorton3968]

cool man

[@xdgagdbdfhs562]

Interesting af

[@Mammutidae]

I went to high school in Eltham I don't wanna be a Collingwood fan

[@OwoehaShehnsna]

I feel like they made the recruitment process too complicated. I feel like just rotating the zones definitely could have worked, or just leave the draft as it. The academy stuff is super confusing.

[@OwoehaShehnsna]

And like people are saying, the afl should try to get players not from private to make it a bit more fair, I don’t know how they would do this though.

[@grogery1570]

The first draft was not done as a way to equalize Melbourne football, but as a cheap and orderly way to steal South Australian footballers. At this time the transfer rules limited South Australian teams to a maximum of $10.000 but no limits were placed on Victorian clubs. So South Australian players were poached for $10.000 then traded to an other Melbourne team for $100.000. Throwing salt on the wound Melbourne clubs would pay in installments over 100 games. So if a player didn't reach that mark the transfer fee was prorated. The finances and politics of this era are more interesting than the games with the league being expanded because Victorian football was almost bankrupt.

[@guodade2239]

It was not just the VFL that was bankrupt in the middle 1980s. The VFA and the WAFL were much, much deeper in crisis as attendances declined, while the sport as it was played on Saturday or Sunday afternoons was entirely unsuited to television, as games were too long and the action difficult to film. Into this void swept the NBA and the local NBL - suited to television as games were much shorter and easier for people to fit in. It was, above all else, basketball (supported de facto by a politically hegemonic road lobby that prevented railways to VFL Park) that forced the radical changes to football over the quarter century from 1982.

[@OhAeroHD]

I'd be interested to see where teams would relocate if the AFL ever decided to move 8/10 teams out of Melbourne. I'd be happy to have Essendon go to Bendigo or Albury.

[@billba]

😂

[@zballer45j15]

Make aNorth Melbourne video… what ever angle you want to come from

[@sliat1981]

Melbourne were the first non-hawthorn, st Kilda, Carlton,Collingwood, Geelong, north Melbourne , Richmond side to make the grand final in 1988 since 1964

[@craigschruhm2379]

And the Mighty Hawks belted them😂

[@sliat1981]

@@craigschruhm2379 yeah but they had the massive advantage as shown here. Demons later denied them a hat trick in 1990

[@JimDee999]

The bloody Jamarra rule was only in the league for a short period but it still managed to screw over Melbourne when they wanted to draft Mac Andrew.

[@jeremybean-hodges6397]

That rule is still here, and will stop a whole bunch of clubs from taking too hard an advantage on the NGA system. It wasn't just Jamarra, either. There's also Tarryn Thomas, Isaac Quaynor, Liam Henry, Lachie Jones, all of whom were taken in the top 20.

[@timbodedidleo]

Hmm. Does this video hint at a possible reason why Alan Jeans left the St.Kilda Football Club for Hawthorn?

[@Magpie_Mark92]

Don't get me started on how unfair this system was, the league lied when they said it was drawn out of a hat and also they promised to rotate every 3 years but Carlton and Hawthorn talked the league out of it for obvious reasons

[@iankearns774]

Collingwood did ok, look at all the Grand Finals you made. You had a pretty good zone in the Northern corridor. The PDJFA was the strongest junior comp throughout the 1970's and early 80's, plus you recruited from a lot of Diamond Valley clubs.

[@sentimentalbloke185]

The zones weres drawn out of the premiership cup on the night before the '67 Grand final. The 3 clubs who voted against it were Coll, Richmond & Geelong.

[@Magpie_Mark92]

@Ian Kearns yeh our suburban zone kept us up there, but you gotta remember stats show more stronger players came from the country zones and still to this day most AFL standard players are from the country

[@JimmyRaptis]

Its not the leagues fault your team failed and failed time again in the grand finals.

[@iankearns774]

@@Magpie_Mark92 I played against a lot of those blokes in the PDJFA who became very good players in the VFL, it was a very strong comp and far stronger than the nearby neighboring DVFL at the time. Clubs like Banyule, Bundoora, all thePreston and Reservoir sides, Olympic etc fed Collingwood throughout the 70's. Phil Manassa cut his teeth at Olympic as did Shane Kerrison and Craig Braddy at the Swans. All the Shaws were from Keon Park, Garry Wilson Fitzroy from Preston Swimmers, Collingwood and to a lesser extent Fitzroy did pretty well out of the Northern corridor. Carlton also got quite a few from out Thomastown and Broadmeadows way. You got the bigger boys from the bush but I reckon the Northern Suburbs were big contributors as well.

[@Breeanna73]

But did you know that the South Australian football league? Is the oldest football code in the world, it's older than the VFL...

[@Hello-qd3uy]

I like this one. My poor Saints

[@james3621]

Given that Ballarat is a bigger city than Bendigo now (I assume it was the case 40 years ago as well), do country zones really explain St Kilda's uselessness compared to Carlton? Is/ was Bendigo's league that much better?

[@Josh-zw1ui]

I would have thought Ballarat would have been one of the better zones?

[@iankearns774]

Wasn't as populous back then as it is now but always was a strong footy area. Bendigo area was a bit stronger back then, clubs like Golden Square and Eaglehawk were extremely strong and Carlton did really well from that zone.

[@sentimentalbloke185]

It was. Very productive. This video has got that completely wrong.

[@TopFix]

Theory kinda falls apart when you realise that in the last 18 years (almost two decades), only 8 teams have won a flag. So the idea of teams being dominant in a certain era isn't restricted to just one thing. Also, the Saints have had their chance to win a flag _three times_ a decade ago - they blew it then just as they blew it after 1966 (#culture). Another case to point out is that Essendon didn't win a flag from 1965 (a year before St Kilda's premiership) all the way until 1984, while suffering it's worst period in club history during the 1970's (known to Bombers fans as the depression era). Puts it all into perspective.

[@destinedwarlord2128]

Most of the other 11 clubs not winning a flag in the past 18 years comes down to either just bad luck or mismanagement than being screwed by zoning out of their control. You can squarely put the failures of clubs like Melbourne, South Melbourne, Fitzroy, Footscray and St. Kilda on the zoning. Meanwhile looking at clubs like Fremantle, Gold Coast, Essendon, Carlton and St. Kilda today, they've either had their chances and didn't make good of them, or they were so poorly managed that they never gave themselves a good shot to begin with.

[@jeremybean-hodges6397]

Except that the only team to have any sort of consistent dominance throughout the modern era is Geelong. All the other great sides - Brisbane, Hawthorn, Essendon, Collingwood - have had some serious troughs.

[@TopFix]

​@@jeremybean-hodges6397 I said 18 years, therefore this has nothing to do with Brisbane or Essendon. And the Hawks have been very successful, snagging 4 flags (more than any team in the last 18 years) in two separate decades. Therefore that reduces your point to just Collingwood, and we all know about the Colliwobbles.

[@TopFix]

​@@destinedwarlord2128 *"Comes down to just bad luck"* Which the same can be said about the 70's and 80's. Essendon were a basket case in the 70's. I brought up the disparity between clubs of the last 18 years (almost 2 decades of the most recent data) to show that a similar outcome can happen: a _minority_ of teams can dominate while others struggle. The very fact that it has happened again means it isn't down to a single thing, there's more to it. *"You can squarely put the failures of clubs like Melbourne, South Melbourne, Fitzroy, Footscray and St. Kilda on the zoning."* I've already shown that the same pattern happening again means it isn't down to a single thing, therefore your _opinion_ flies in the face of that with nothing else sufficient enough to counter-act it. Your only answer is "squarely put", just because you tell yourself something to make yourself feel better about it doesn't mean it makes it true. *"They've either had their chances and didn't make good of them"* Again, same can be said about teams in the past. Fact of the matter is, even when St Kilda of the modern day had their chances, they failed, in *three Grand Finals,* and that shows that the *culture* of a club and how well it is run permeates through generations, and it takes a mighty effort to be successful and pull the club out of a loser culture while juggling the cards you're dealt, this is why flags are so revered. That's what history is for, that's why the choice of the club you support matters, because you're betting on them being competent enough to come out as the best of the lot. Just because yours doesn't and is a perennial failure, doesn't mean you can just find one thing to excuse it and illegitimise the greatness of others, that's the ultimate pathetic cop-out and nothing but a generational coping mechanism. Teams dominate with what they're given regardless of an era, as proven by my post, so this idea of trying to find a scapegoat is an extension of that loser culture, which is what permeated through those clubs that failed. That's hard to stomach for some. Tough luck.

[@jeremybean-hodges6397]

@@TopFix yeah but what is the difference between 2007 and 2000? Both were draft-dominated sides

[@crazymusicchick]

Im pretty sure wafl has this, that link with the junior clubs too thats how the decide the region. ametures in perth have grades they go up n down and anyone can join a club. country ametures have thier own legue but pay players so towns closer to perth get better players according to my cousin.

[@bomberkid6]

make a video about the protest on the bombers logo

[@ray.shoesmith]

How did Carey wind up at North when he was from Wagga (Riverina)?

[@travisharvey7911]

Swans traded away their rights to him…and Longmire for a couple of grand each

[@insertnamehere5809]

He played in their Under 19's under Pagan.

[@ray.shoesmith]

@@travisharvey7911 Well John played for Corowa/Rutherglen in the O&M league so it made sense for him to go to North since they had the O&M. Didn't know Sydney had dibs on him.

[@RCT1963]

Footscray’s zone was in Gippsland🙄 Typical V(A)FL

[@fredsmith2277]

father son is good for collingwood at the moment ???

[@iqweaver]

Club Acadamies are not aimed at equalisation, they are aimed at promoting minorities to play the game and developing regions where the sport is a minority sport. They are about increasing the talent pool potentially at the expense of equalisation.

[@pavementpounder7502]

Imo Eagles and Dockers should get first pick of WA talent.

[@iankearns774]

First pick only if you are sitting on the bottom mate. You also get the option of recruiting the best available from other states determined by where you finish on the ladder the previous year. You cant be fairer than that.

[@robertparry4929]

This is forgetting the clubs put money into those zones and developed talent

[@LordEdmund1973]

Why was Ballarat such an unproductive zone when Bendigo was excellent? That makes very little sense given how similar in almost every regard the two are.

[@guodade2239]

St. Kildaʼs country zone was actually in no way unproductive. The difference was of course that Carlton was the richest club in the League, whilst St. Kilda was one of the very poorest - differences rooted in Carltonʼs links to the Liberal Party ever since Menzies and St. Kildaʼs historical remoteness from wealthy industrial patrons. Also, as Inside Football noted in 1979, St. Kildaʼs metropolitan zones were losing population more rapidly than any other clubʼs, whilst at that time Carltonʼs metro zones were the most rapidly growing in the League.

[@Cazza1648]

It’s the Goulburn Valley not Goldburn

[@mrduuud]

So did Carlton and Hawthorn's objection to rotating the zones win out? The video didn't make this clear, and it's obviously a very important point. This could have been made clear and if it's true, I would've liked to have seen more made of this since it effected the success and misery of all teams for DECADES! For example I would love to know more about the politics of this decision. Who made it, who was lobbying for Carlton and Hawthorn. What a tragedy for all the other clubs. Another example of elitism winning out by holding it's privileged ground. Shame on the VFL management for letting this occur!

[@sentimentalbloke185]

You have to be kidding if you think that St Kilda's zones in Frankston & Ballarat weren't strong. St Kilda's problem stemmed from poor management & a lack of money, they were perpetually broke. They gave away great zone players such as Perovic & Greene. Meanwhile, Richmond was dealt one of the worst zones yet won 5 flags '67-80. The major effect of country zoning was to force clubs to recruit more from interstate (and even Ireland later on) and clubs began paying transfer fees & preying on players from other clubs.

[@JimmyRaptis]

Exactly, StKildas problems always stemmed from poor management off field. Then in the 90s and early 2000s they had a strong side that contended in finals and grand finals but couldn't capitalise.

[@falchoon]

St Kilda didn't have Frankston, Hawthorn's country zone (MPNFL) came all the way up to Aspendale. Harvey (Seaford) , Loewe (Mt Eliza) and Burke (Pines) all came after zoning. It's amazing that St Kilda's best players post zoning were all Hawthorn "country" zone players.

[@sentimentalbloke185]

@@falchoon wrong. I lived in that zone & the northern half of Frankston + Seaford belonged to St Kilda, eg. Russell Greene (& his brother Mark) for instance. IIRC, Loewe was passed over by Hawthorn, that's why he ended up with the Saints.That happened sometimes with zoning, a player could be cleared to another club before playing a game.

[@sentimentalbloke185]

@@JimmyRaptis Saints really struggled after Jeans left, but they had a good side in '78 which broke up in the off season as St Kilda was effectively bankrupt & they couldn't pay their players. They finished last in '79. Not even Lindsay Fox as president could cure their problems & they entered their scheme of arrangement in '84. That they somehow survived is a miracle. The idea that it was because of zoning is bollocks.

[@mjames4709]

Always was and still is a sh*t club. That’s why.

[@dits791]

Throw in a mid season draft that kill clubs in the SANFL and the WAFL.

[@BDub2024]

Its still happening. East Fremantle has one of the most productive zone in Australia in Geraldton mid west region. Claremont the great south. Then Perth only have the Avon area. Then you have Claremont Subi and West Perth having big metro areas. Its gone on for 30 years now. You've seen the clubs with the biggest supporter groups miss the finals for year after year. It seems such a joke and wrecked the WAFL comp.

[@BDub2024]

@@horacehamilton2191 I was annoyed last week when one of the SEN journos interviewed Wayne Martin? of WAFC. I think it was Duffield. He pointed out that Perth have Avon district which hardly has any players. Also the south east corridor which is mainly local clubs that are probably underfunded. Meanwhile Claremont, as great Southern and then picks up all the western suburbs. In those suburbs there is a high number of kids that play AFL. Also the players get all the extra junior development from playing at all the expensive colleges there, plus the clubs are really well resourced. Martin acknowledged it but said Claremont do things well. Obviously CFC and Subi have a big powerbase at WAFC. EPFC has south west from Busselton downwards. EFFC has always had a huge zone in Geraldton. I reckon kids are more likely to stay in those regions now, due to less money at WAFL. So that's why clubs like EFFC and EPFC aren't as strong. Even Swans don't get as much out of Bunbury.

[@BDub2024]

@@horacehamilton2191 Its unfair for Perth and East Perth my team. EP got rescued by Eagles players. Also in 1996 basically most of their team was recruited from Victoria. But had no choice. You should look at the results from underage interdistricts comps. Claremont Subi WP SF just totally dominate year in year out. You see EP getting thumped by massive margins. But the WAFC just allow it to keep on going. What incensed me was 15 years ago or so, EP heart land suburbs in the inner north east were taken over by Claremont for a year or so. What the hell?

[@BDub2024]

@@horacehamilton2191 Perth maybe could have gone further down to Gosnells or across to Canningvale area. It would have meant more youth in that corridor would play for Perth instead of their mates in the Sunday league. In the old Sunday league comp (well when it was running 25 years ago, not sure what happens now) you had about 8 clubs in the zone from South Perth down to Armadale. Kids were playing Sunday league instead of WAFL for Perth. I've got no idea if that's still the case. Maddington, S Perth, Canning (I think), Cannington, Gosnells, Kelmscott, Armadale,... I'm probably missing a couple. Then you had Wanneroo and Osb Pk.

[@BDub2024]

@@horacehamilton2191 I think Perth will probably have to merge with Eagles as the WAFC doesn't want to give them a fair deal. If done properly it will rejuvenate Perth.

[@BDub2024]

@@horacehamilton2191 Colts is a very clear sign. Claremont and Souths have been in finals for most of that period. Its so annoying as its not difficult to adjust suburbs. Remember how all the recruits to AFL used to be Claremont East Freo and Subi. What did that say. Thirty years ago, East Freo junior area was split into East Freo Blue and East Freo White. Two divisions!!! East Perth junior area folded . Then merged with West Perth junior area. Then merged again to become Centrals... all different now. But so typical. As I said have a look at U/15s etc...

[@zacharybos4230]

You could do a video on ‘right of reply’ when the minor premiers could play the winner of the grand finalists

[@FootyA2Z]

Definitely one of my favourite niche football facts

[@mregas78]

Saints faired badly on this quirk as well.

[@sentimentalbloke185]

'right of challenge' not reply.

[@user-pq3bl8zu5i]

What suck is that Saints could have won more but nooooo the richer clubs who had won several cups just had to interject

[@FlashMeterRed]

Wtf did st kilda (the top team in 66) do in the years immediately after the change, before drafting effects pitch performance? In contrast to Hawthorn and Carlton at its conclusion...

[@guodade2239]

Following the end of country zoning, St. Kilda did improve though from an extremely low level. Between 1979 and 1986 St. Kilda had finished bottom five times, eleventh twice and tenth once. They had not won more than five games in a season, and their overall record from 176 games was 31-143-2. In 1987, the Saints rose to 9-13, but a succession of injuries to key forwards Lockett and Owen, plus enduring lack of pace, caused them to fall to last in 1988 and to have a total record of 20-46 between 1988 and 1990 - still about 12 percent better than the last eight years of country zoning.

[@Jpy71]

zoning was all about stopping collingwood and melb as the each got crap zone

[@sentimentalbloke185]

no

[@insertnamehere5809]

Collingwood received a great recruitment area in the suburbs, they got the Diamond Valley FL & the Preston DJFA.

[@Jpy71]

@@insertnamehere5809 lol

[@millertas]

This is why Saints Fans are real fans NOT the type that picks a team to support on superficial means.

[@sov839]

Personally I think we need a much better CBA for the players, a looser Free Agency, and get rid of exclusive rights to father sons, academy players etc.

[@sentimentalbloke185]

good call, still too many hangovers from ye olde days.

[@BDub2024]

When the Eagles started they only had a squad of 35. The other Victorian clubs had U19s reserves and league plus a zone. So when the Eagles won flags it served the VFL right. They wanted the WA money and the extra TV royalties but didn't want a fair setup.

[@mjames4709]

Do Western Australians ever stop whinging? Massive chip on their little shoulders.

[@aarongocs2798]

why was ballarat so poor for talent? bad weather kept people indoors?

[@darthgeros5863]

the only way to make it fair is to remove drafting and salary caps, and let the clubs who are ran right, make money, sell memberships and are attractive recruit the best... everyone has a chance to make money, sell memberships and become an attractive prospect.. not everyone can attain pick 1 though

[@jasonfreestone9944]

That would only be fair if we had a proper draw, not a fixture like we have now, that certainly benefits some teams over others, eg big public holiday matches and prime time tv slots. The fixture is grossly unfair.

[@darthgeros5863]

@@jasonfreestone9944 everyone should play eachother once, that is how it should be

[@tsv2087]

Spoken like a true big 4 bogan

[@darthgeros5863]

@@tsv2087 yeah, sydney swans definitely are a big 4

[@davidburne9477]

Mate, wake up, inequality still rules. GFs still played at MCG, where some teams have their home, VIC clubs travel less frequently than other states, and the whole mentality of the AFL treats clubs as Victorian or non-Victorian (loaded as that is with inherent bias), and the administration is permanently located in Melbourne. Even the NFL moves the Super Bowl around to venues that have capacity… The extra travel for teams outside Victoria is not even compensated to players. Try being from WA and having to travel every week vs Melb clubs whose players get to sleep in their own beds - and be with the families, undisrupted - probably thirty or forty more days per year. And there is no compensation in the system for all that extra travel. Overall, there is still massive inequity that for the most part the AFL does not want to discuss or explore, let alone remedy.

[@Quokka666]

west cost v freo the old dasys the 2000s wen there were punch ups every game

[@disgruntledformeryfopinion1927]

can you talk about salary cap cheating.

[@botchklobb8521]

Oh man! As a cats man I reckon we’d of won about 10 flags in a row if zoning was still in during the 2000’s 2010’s so many good footballers outta district

[@mjames4709]

You’ve all got the one father in that sh*thole, so many father-sons.

[@PiesGuy35]

collingwood didn’t lose two in that era 😂