Crawler Canyon Answers Unasked Questions: Brushed motors, 2 pole or 4 pole?

In my admittedly limited experience, not everything seems to translate at 2mph that does at 40mph. I gave up brushed motors in RC literally decades ago-- prior to crawling, I hadn't used anything brushed other than some torture tests I ran on 12T Titans. So four poles are supposed to produce more torque and use more power than an equivalent two pole. But can I even tell?
540+ 5-slot 20T V2 amzn.to/42oDHs2
540+ 5-slot 20T V4 surpasshobbyus...
IG: crawlercanyon

[@fejwe]

This was super interesting, the difference was so immediately apparent. I just picked up a 35T Tekin HD for a rig running the Amazon dig gearbox, which doesn't seem to fit a Fusion SE under the servo bracket. After one day of testing in the backyard I absolutely love it. I may get another for my Gatekeeper, which currently has an 1800 Fusion SE in it, but for some reason feels like it lacks punch and speed. The 35T Tekin has a ton of punch and torque. I never thought I'd be in the "replace a Fusion with a 1080 and a brushed motor" club but I probably will be by May. I think the 1800 SE is destined for a home in my near-future Defender--I'm guessing the 2 speed will make any lack of wheel speed or punch less of a problem. I'm going to try a few pinions on the Gatekeeper before I decide, but I love the Fusion Pro in my TRX4, and can't imagine an SE in a Defender would be any less amazing.

[@BrandonM83]

yayyyyyyy found another vid I haven't dropped a like on. love scrolling and unlocking canyon knowledge😎😎😎😎😎😎

[@FaithSaraG]

My curiosity is satisfied. Thanks!

[@CrawlerCanyon]

Someone mentioned that the 4-pole has been discontinued, which if true is a shame. It's the nicest one to drive.

[@FaithSaraG]

@@CrawlerCanyon Yes, it has been. The only wind I can find on AliExpress is the 20t.

[@fromfin90]

I know some dont like Fusion and the sensored as they dont tell you when the wheel is stuck, you can absolutely wreck your axles, joints or links with axe and fusion :D Brushed too, but a brushed motor will tell you

[@BobBitchen100]

I run both brushed and brushless. Love the fusions in rigs that have room for a big can. I don't like how drag brake fails in a 5 slot on a heavy rig. Bought a used HH crawlmaster magnum and its amazing. I'd never spend $180.00 on a new magnum, but I paid less than half that. Its great lol. Better be at that price... 🤣

[@human890209yang]

The 4 pole 540PLUS (V1) are discontinued. V2 changed back to 2 pole. Is there a reason?

[@CrawlerCanyon]

If I had to guess, I would guess cost... or sales. People probably not buying up the V4s at the higher price. Shame. The 540+ V4 is outstanding.

[@dezfan]

That 5 slot 4 pole was impressive! Are you running a V1 or V2 1080?

[@CrawlerCanyon]

That's an OG 1080, one of the older ones I have, actually. The G2 would be maybe that slight bit smoother, but Jake owns that one and refuses to share.

[@SpyXEspoir]

Would you say a tamiya rz motor 23 turn will do okay in a crawler ?

[@neildaniels5443]

Gonna av ta rename Slickrock to Squirrel rock , its da law!!!😂

[@TheRCBuildersPost]

I went down a big rabbit hole with these motors. The surpass, team brood, reedy, firma, powerhobby, nhx and so on. Are all more similar than different and prices vary majorly! Rebuildables I should add. A couple of them being identical

[@CrawlerCanyon]

I don't know who the OE is (I suspect Surpass, as it's molded into pretty much every endbell) but I agree completely. Tons of brands, same motors with different stickers. This is not limited to the 540+, either, but most of the rebuildable can 540s and 550s on Amazon (and hobby-specific sites as well) are all just rebadges of a handful of motors. The Surpass and NHX in this were identical save for the cans, and the color of said cans. Related, I don't think Team Brood makes anything at all, much like Injora. They're just distributors.

[@TheRCBuildersPost]

@@CrawlerCanyon I agree. That was my conclusion that Surpass was more than likely the OEM of it all, kinda like how hobbywing is behind most ESC 😂. Good video though! Keep up the good content!

[@TheRCBuildersPost]

@@CrawlerCanyon I don't know if you have already explored this route yet, but the reedy sc400x or whatever it is, it's just the surpass hobby ESC rebranded. They have the same exact program cards and everything. Kind of disappoints me really. When you, well I, think of team associated, I think of rc championships and quality. Kind of a bummer to learn how poor quality their electronics are. And I'm a huge element and associated fan. But I will say their electronics are overpriced junk!

[@CrawlerCanyon]

@@TheRCBuildersPost the current junkbox, the SC480X, is theoretically the more powerful version of the awfulness that is the SC400. Associated, and by extension Reedy (or vice versa) have been phoning it in when it comes to RTR electronics for ages-- the XP120 and XP130 are pretty much all they've offered for radios in the past 15 years, and those radios were NEVER good. This is another part of why I can't understand why everyone dumps on Traxxas so much for their RTR gear-- at least it works. The XL-5HV might as well be a jet engine compared to the SC480X.

[@TheRCBuildersPost]

@@CrawlerCanyon Yeah those transmitters are probably the worst in the industry. I see it everyday in Element groups someone having trouble with their rc taking off or glitching. It's always the transmitter and receiver. Most RTR electronics are junk, they are supposed to get you started I get it, but come on lol. Traxxas transmitters are great IMO but I do understand the hate on their other electronics. I hate the reedy and associated stuff but I've had never had a smoke show with them . I've had multiple with Traxxas. But it is what it is. That's why we jerk those things out when we get our RTRs lol.

[@TheSphongleface]

Please, I don't have 20.minutes. What is the actual top speed and punch difference ?

[@shyancole2490]

It's not called black or blue chrome it's called anodized or zinc coating

[@CrawlerCanyon]

The cans are steel (not stainless) so they are definitely not anodized-- and anodized SS has a brushed finish. I'm going to guess the cnas are all nickel plated (which is what makes chrome shiny) and then either heated to achieve the final color, or has a color layer over the nickel. IF someone figures out how to make zinc (which is dull gray/white reflective, they could save a whole industry a lot of money.

[@augustzackery]

12:56 tune the 1080 a bit and you can make it super smooth. A little ESC tuning goes a long way

[@CrawlerCanyon]

There is no tuning to achieve what I'm referring to. Either the hardware-- that is the motor and the ESC powering it-- can do it, or they cannot. The 1080 is a fantastic ESC, and there is simply no other ESC that can touch it at the pricepoint, but it is not the absolute end all and be all of speed controls. That is not an opinion, that is an objective fact. So something out there can offer finer low speed control, but it is almost certainly beyond the point of diminishing returns. I don't want to sound like I'm speaking in absolutes, but I feel like I've tested more motors, and tweaked more ESCs than the average person. Something like a BR-XL might feel a little silkier, at a price premium of 150%. Same for the motor, where some hand-wound would be punchier, or smoother, or have even lower start-up RPM, but cost two or three times what the Surpass Rockets cost. The 540+ 5-slots have rapidly become my favorite brushed motors, and when I recommend a brushed ESC to someone, it goes, "Buy a 1080, or upgrade to brushless. There's no point messing with anything else." So in case my meaning was missed in the video: there might be a brushed combo out there better than a 1080 and a 4-pole 5-slot-- but it won't be worth paying for.

[@erwinadriaensen]

Great video ones again! I need to dig into this subject more. Do you have a technote about motors? Like it's a five slot, but why? I was into 4x4 buggy racing about 35 years ago and still have a lot off stuff from that time. LRP motors, do they still exist, and are they any good for crawling? I'm on the point of no return into buying a first crawler. Maybe an Ecto... However, I'll ptobably take that so much apart that I'm better of starting from an Enduro builderskit. Anyway, your vids are addictive and I'd really love you're advice on the right crawler to start from. Greetz, Erwin (from Belgium).

[@CrawlerCanyon]

Any of those old motors are worth a try-- you never know. I put an old Tamiya FL-tuned in one rig, and that motor is great. With a lot of the older stuff though, the turn counts will be pretty low, so they might be too fast. Only takes a few minutes to find out, though. With regards toward what to start with in Europe, I guess that would come down to availability, and how much the EU is gonna grab you on VAT, etc. I know that some of the stuff that's economical over here is insane over there. If you have support and it isn't marked up to the moon, any of the Elements are great starting platforms, the Builder's Kit 2 being especially good. If you want an Ecto, I'd say BK2 with an Ecto (or similar) body on it. Then in the future should you decide the addiction is growing, Artful Dodgers is right over in Poland, and the GroundFox kit will make it absolutely formidable.

[@erwinadriaensen]

@@CrawlerCanyon thank you very much for taking the time to answer me sir. BK2 sounds nice. I can buy one in Belgium for 270€ (±290USD). Then I can choose a lot of things. Ecto or a comp body would be me preffered. I'll try my engines as you say. Will need to decide on a lot of other stuff though... ◘ speed controller ◘ radio transmitter ◘ tires ◘ rims ◘ ... All advice is appricieted!

[@erwinadriaensen]

◘ a servo

[@erwinadriaensen]

And batteries. I need to catch up on batteries... Lipo, what is that. Seems we were running completely different stuff back in the days.

[@CrawlerCanyon]

@@erwinadriaensen If you're sticking with brushed, there's no point in buying any ESC other than a Hobbywing 1080WP. Nothing comes close for the money. For radios, I'm a devoted Radiolink man, the RC4 and RC6 suit every build I have, and see no reason to spend any more on a radio. I'm not sure I can help with tires beyond saying don't count out Duratrax (or Louise, or Fastrax, or whatever "brand" you have available there. They make a very good, inexpensive (in crawler terms) tire-- and options like the Deep Woods ( which I is the Louise Champ) is one of the best mixed-surface tires I've tried. For a servo, again, what's available to you might differ, but try to future-proof and go with direct-power, like a Flash Hobby, 9imod, etc. The Flash Hobby M60BHW is my favorite servo for the money, and the AGFRC SA75CVSW is one of my favorite servos ever.

[@brianmassey7563]

Okay, so what is the slot count on those motors? Shouldn't the speed of the motor be halved when doubling the poles? I never hear rc crawler motors described in poles, so I'm a little thrown off. I assumed 2 pole = 3 slot, and 4 pole = 5 slot, but IDK.

[@CrawlerCanyon]

These are 5-slot motors, the only 5-slot motors I've found that I actually like. Speed can often change even with motors by the same manufacturer claiming the same base numbers when comparing two of what is supposed to be the same motor. Not the case here, thankfully. Slots and poles are independent. Slots are how many "wire sections" there are on the rotor, poles are home many magnets are on the inside of the can-- for instance, most outrunners are 12S 14P, which is why so torquey, and why startup can be so smooth without sensors.

[@drowildcat2960]

​@@CrawlerCanyon that is a great reply comment A+ Canyon

[@butch6819]

I prefer a 16turn over a 20turn.

[@CrawlerCanyon]

Absolutely depends on the gearbox and the axle. The 20T is a little soft for a Stealth X, but would still be too quick for some setups-- most anything RC4WD, where a 3-slot 45T feels too fast. I'm running the same 540+ but in 16T in another rig, and with an Amazon dig box and Pro44s, it's just about perfect.

[@dkmgm2011]

You being nice to Susan now?

[@CrawlerCanyon]

Not all the time. But you know. Sometimes.