Cultish: What is Christian Science (Episode 2)

[@ApologiaStudios]

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[@Lillaloppan]

Thank you so very much😊!

[@aleighz1]

@ApologiaStudios Is there a link to the ministry for former CS? I’d love her information! This is an AMAZING interview and I LOVE Tanner’s heart. Thank you for doing this Tanner - very brave of you! And thank you gentlemen for interviewing Tanner. This is such a great (the best) video I’ve seen on this subject.

[@michaelekemp6679]

There's a lot of criticism atound this interview, but as someone who has lived with people involved in this, I see & understand Tanner's hurt. This interview put a lot into perspective for me, suddenly my interactions with these people in my life made a lot more sense. So, I just want to say thank you for talking about this, information is hard to come by, so this helps a lot.

[@avleck]

Thank you so much. I was born and raised in CS. Found my way out due to a medical crisis in my early 30s. So many emotions listening to this. Really well executed discussion.❤️‍🩹

[@judithmargret5972]

My neighbour is Christian Science. Everyday she spends a lot of time reinforcing the belief that she doesn't get sick and drumming the teachings into herself. She also believes she is a " Christ healer" so she spends most of her time at home and waiting for people to ring so she can heal them. A few times as we were walking we spoke about our beliefs, and they deny sin, and Jesus as Saviour. I did get to tell her the Gospel a few times, and to impress upon her that Jesus is the only way to the Father That He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. She did tell me she couldn't walk anymore, but at least she heard the Gospel. It's sad, she is completely deceived. Speaker is right about they are taught not to feel or speak anything negative, yet it was so fake. It reminded me of charismatics a lot, where they don't speak negative things over themselves and believe everyone can be healed.

[@judithmargret5972]

@@brando3342 Even Jesus didn't heal everyone. He picked out certain people to be healed. Then we are told during Peter's ministry that all who were bought were healed. Acts 5 15-16. This was also to verify the apostles, to build the church, and to verify the message. There is nowhere in Scripture that everyone could heal, and we only see healings mainly to verify ministries. Elijah as prophet, disciples, to verify their message that Jesus was Messiah. If you notice while the church was being established in Acts, there were many miracles and healings. By the time we get to the Epistles, they had stopped and the message is on how to live the Christian life Acts was a time of transition, from the Old to the New. Once the church was established, we had to learn how to live the Christian life and the running of the church, We aren't promised that all will be healed, and an unbeliever using Jesus name to heal is a joke. Even in Acts the apostles and a few others, appointed by the apostles did miracles like Stephen. God heals who He wills to heal, so we can pray for healing, and acceptance if we aren't healed, knowing that one day we will all be healed, but not yet.

[@judithmargret5972]

@@brando3342 Justin Peters has some brilliant teachings on healings. Here is one kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3qvgXxvZtN5iNE

[@justachristian4072]

@@judithmargret5972 Well said!

[@ljones98391]

@judith newman. I find it interesting that you say your neighbor spends a lot of time “reinforcing the belief..... drumming the teachings into herself.” Odd, because aren’t we taught to do the same by reading the Word and praying without ceasing? It seems quite unkind to call her practice “drumming the teachings” while thinking we are more righteous for “strengthening our faith” in a similar manner. .

[@AChippendale]

Hey, at least you tried.

[@zacharymicah]

Very eye opening. It's interesting to hear from someone who's been through the experience in any of these belief systems. A few years ago I borrowed my dad's copy of Kingdom of the Cults and read through it to get a better understanding of what the other religions/faith systems were all about. All that to say, I ended up looking into the story behind the song "The God That Failed" by Metallica and as I recall singer James Hetfield was raised by Christian Science parents who died from really bad cases of cancer and so his view of God as a failure is because his parents refused to seek any kind of medical treatment and they died while he was in his teens.

[@AgapeDisciple]

46:20 Best summary for this whole interview 🔥

[@aleighz1]

YES!!

[@M3MAX]

What an awesome testimony of his leaving idolatry and coming to know Christ!

[@lizwood3514]

Christian Science is based on philosophical idealism whereby everything is the mind not materialism. Mrs Eddy probably got it from somebody like Schopenhaur who in turn was influenced by Yogacara Buddhism which is amazingly like Christain Science without the Christian bit. I was brought up as a Christian Scientist but I am Holy Spirit baptised. My Holy Spirit baptism was very powerful and was mainly the experience of love and joy. The power was so powerful I can describe it as a warm energy that felt viscous like oil that circulated around my heart. The teaching was the Jewishness of Jesus which changed my theology. I became very aware of the testimony in the Bible of the Holy Spirit and particularly in the OT like in Kings where the priests in the Jewish Temple were not able to stand to minister to the people because the glory cloud was so powerful. However, although the Spirit changed my theology I did not receive a hatred of Christian Science or of any other religion or to create theoligical division. Tanner mentions Martin Luther in part 2 of these videos as somebody better to follow and yet Martin Luther was virulently anti-semitic. Also, out of the reformation came a new biblical canon that excluded books of the Catholic canon that were later found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were Hebrew versions of these books and these books had been excluded by protestantism because old enough versions of them did not exist at that time. That is until they found the Dead Sea Scrolls. My view is that Christian Science has a lot to offer if you can make genuine discernments of what is relevant and what is not. I used it successfully in delivering myself of something. Now Mrs Eddy would not recognise deliverance as a spirit being delivered and perhaps that is a weakness in her theology but equally it has to be said she advocates that God is the only power which is essential in deliverance. Dualism just won't wash. Also she is one of the earliest advocates of the placebo effect long before such an effect was recognised by the medical profession. Strangely too there is a lot of similarity between what the Buddhist teacher Nagarjuna teaches 2000 years ago and Quantum Physics philosophy. So sometimes truth can be found other than from the church. Let's face it guys, if we followed the church in everything we would still believe the sun moved around the earth. In conclusion nobody has a perfect theology, not even the main stream church who seem to have missed some important things about Jesus's Jewishness. I would say even part theologies have something to offer and yet in the end love for God and neighbour matter the most not division and distrust. Here is a completely different take on God and is this to be discounted too as another deceptive cult? kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3rYe36Xl96rlck

[@M3MAX]

@@lizwood3514 whatever. I don't care

[@LillithLeonard]

God bless you, Tanner, and your beautiful tender heart. May it always remain so.

[@davechristensen8299]

Tanner does a fantastic job of explaining everything. Andrew jumps in mixing CS up with his general idea of cults and misquotes and accuses CS of things it is not guilty of. Just listen to Tanner and don't do the "telephone game". Every denomination goes off-track in their own specific ways. Also, every group offers some good things or they would never grow.

[@amberjohnston797]

Thank you for sharing. What a beautiful testimony!!😊

[@hanstwilight3218]

I must share: pastor David Lynn / street preacher is being charged in court for street preaching the gospel in Canada , please pray for your brother in Christ and reach out to him if possible.

[@heroldable]

Trav. I will pray, right now!

[@DawnHub666]

LMAO

[@hanstwilight3218]

@@DawnHub666 (O.o) ........... ok!

[@Dewfasa]

God bless brother

[@AlexanderosD]

"All of these religions are going to require a sacrifice" "Almost like a Stockholm Syndrome" ......wow! Bro you've spoken the gospel very well in this segment. Thanks to all of you for sharing about this. I've heard of Christian Science but didn't know much about it.

[@lizwood3514]

Christian Science is based on philosophical idealism whereby everything is the mind not materialism. Mrs Eddy probably got it from somebody like Schopenhaur who in turn was influenced by Yogacara Buddhism which is amazingly like Christain Science without the Christian bit. I was brought up as a Christian Scientist but I am Holy Spirit baptised. My Holy Spirit baptism was very powerful and was mainly the experience of love and joy. The power was so powerful I can describe it as a warm energy that felt viscous like oil that circulated around my heart. The teaching was the Jewishness of Jesus which changed my theology. I became very aware of the testimony in the Bible of the Holy Spirit and particularly in the OT like in Kings where the priests in the Jewish Temple were not able to stand to minister to the people because the glory cloud was so powerful. However, although the Spirit changed my theology I did not receive a hatred of Christian Science or of any other religion or to create theoligical division. Tanner mentions Martin Luther in part 2 of these videos as somebody better to follow and yet Martin Luther was virulently anti-semitic. Also, out of the reformation came a new biblical canon that excluded books of the Catholic canon that were later found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were Hebrew versions of these books and these books had been excluded by protestantism because old enough versions of them did not exist at that time. That is until they found the Dead Sea Scrolls. My view is that Christian Science has a lot to offer if you can make genuine discernments of what is relevant and what is not. I used it successfully in delivering myself of something. Now Mrs Eddy would not recognise deliverance as a spirit being delivered and perhaps that is a weakness in her theology but equally it has to be said she advocates that God is the only power which is essential in deliverance. Dualism just won't wash. Also she is one of the earliest advocates of the placebo effect long before such an effect was recognised by the medical profession. Strangely too there is a lot of similarity between what the Buddhist teacher Nagarjuna teaches 2000 years ago and Quantum Physics philosophy. So sometimes truth can be found other than from the church. Let's face it guys, if we followed the church in everything we would still believe the sun moved around the earth. In conclusion nobody has a perfect theology, not even the main stream church who seem to have missed some important things about Jesus's Jewishness. I would say even part theologies have something to offer and yet in the end love for God and neighbour matter the most not division and distrust. Here is a completely different take on God and is this to be discounted too as another deceptive cult? kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3rYe36Xl96rlck

[@ringodingo6945]

Amazing....thanks all

[@wisdom33-i1n]

Despite some of the phraseology used in the First Edition of "Science and Health", Christian Science doesn't teach that man is God or becomes God. Instead, Christian Science teaches that man is the image and likeness of God; ie., the "reflection of God". The Christian Science Church doesn't use the First Edition. It uses only the edition that was in use at the time of Mrs. Eddy's death; ie., the last edition she authorized.

[@robbinsgamingchannel]

Guys I never hear the train. Lol. They may just be me though. Awesome video by the way, praise the Lord for such a wonderful testimony and the power of the accomplished work of Christ!

[@lizwood3514]

Christian Science is based on philosophical idealism whereby everything is the mind not materialism. Mrs Eddy probably got it from somebody like Schopenhaur who in turn was influenced by Yogacara Buddhism which is amazingly like Christain Science without the Christian bit. I was brought up as a Christian Scientist but I am Holy Spirit baptised. My Holy Spirit baptism was very powerful and was mainly the experience of love and joy. The power was so powerful I can describe it as a warm energy that felt viscous like oil that circulated around my heart. The teaching was the Jewishness of Jesus which changed my theology. I became very aware of the testimony in the Bible of the Holy Spirit and particularly in the OT like in Kings where the priests in the Jewish Temple were not able to stand to minister to the people because the glory cloud was so powerful. However, although the Spirit changed my theology I did not receive a hatred of Christian Science or of any other religion or to create theoligical division. Tanner mentions Martin Luther in part 2 of these videos as somebody better to follow and yet Martin Luther was virulently anti-semitic. Also, out of the reformation came a new biblical canon that excluded books of the Catholic canon that were later found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were Hebrew versions of these books and these books had been excluded by protestantism because old enough versions of them did not exist at that time. That is until they found the Dead Sea Scrolls. My view is that Christian Science has a lot to offer if you can make genuine discernments of what is relevant and what is not. I used it successfully in delivering myself of something. Now Mrs Eddy would not recognise deliverance as a spirit being delivered and perhaps that is a weakness in her theology but equally it has to be said she advocates that God is the only power which is essential in deliverance. Dualism just won't wash. Also she is one of the earliest advocates of the placebo effect long before such an effect was recognised by the medical profession. Strangely too there is a lot of similarity between what the Buddhist teacher Nagarjuna teaches 2000 years ago and Quantum Physics philosophy. So sometimes truth can be found other than from the church. Let's face it guys, if we followed the church in everything we would still believe the sun moved around the earth. In conclusion nobody has a perfect theology, not even the main stream church who seem to have missed some important things about Jesus's Jewishness. I would say even part theologies have something to offer and yet in the end love for God and neighbour matter the most not division and distrust. Here is a completely different take on God and is this to be discounted too as another deceptive cult? kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3rYe36Xl96rlck

[@davechristensen8299]

It's impossible to read what you wrote because you don't make any spaces. It's an unreadable wall of words. I want you to make your thoughts readable because I like what I did read.

[@Cdray24]

Would they get glasses or go to the dentist? If so , How is that not meedical care. Would they get hearing aides etc.

[@PassifloraCerulea]

Not sure about hearing aids, but glasses and dentistry are normal. Both my parents (devout christian scientists) wear glasses. It's just sort of accepted as what you do. Eyesight and dental issues don't seem to heal so well (I say cynically). Pretty much any other kind of medical care is avoided at great pains though. Supposedly, if you're 'not getting your healing' it's okay to seek medical treatment, but in my experience growing up in the church there was a fair amount of suffering and even death waiting for those healings that never seemed to come.

[@anikadey568]

My CS family members do not believe in wearing glasses and its frowned upon. I think it varies family to family

[@roguecalvinist]

"I got the measles but I didn't die." How about a spoiler alert next time

[@jhowe5571]

Aprx minute 52... He said that his christian science teacher told him that Mary Baker Eddy didn't get her stuff from the Bible but from private revelation.... 2 Peter 1... 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. We have a more sure word in the scriptures for all wee need for life and godliness.

[@ZoneTelevision]

I knew this kid and I new his teacher. He's talking in halve truths and he's also a liar with respect to his teacher.The first Tenant of Christina Science is "1.) We take the the Inspired word of the Bible as our sufficient guide to eternal life"

[@kpeterson1342]

Yeah but at the same time there's a tenet that says "The Bible is our sufficient guide to eternal life." I'm a former Christian Scientist and I remember thinking "Then why do we need Science and Health?" but was never allowed to say such a thing out loud. It is brainwashing. 100%

[@michelemcguire8995]

God doesn't expect us to be perfect.theres only one who is and God himself..he wants out love n to read his word n share it with the lost Obey his commandments n statutes.

[@Chirhopher]

Michael, i Love You, and truly care. May we talk about how one is Justified before GOD‽ -Who GOD Is and What HE has Done on behalf of HIS People.

[@timsharpe6652]

Lol you got your Michael mixed up with your Michelle there lol 😉

[@michelerivera2330]

Can you look at SDA? Seventh Day Adventtism. Much of my family are following these teachings. I don't understand how they can adhere to these doctrines when being born again. Yet they love Jesus. I see them as cultish, do you? Thanks sincerely concerned.

[@Chirhopher]

Ahmein. What are their false teachings?

[@DawnHub666]

ITS ALL CULTISH .. .

[@flowerpower3618]

I’d love to hear another former Christian Science follower as well. This is so bizarre

[@ZoneTelevision]

All "former" Christ Scientists will say the same thing. A.) It's not Christian B.) Eddy was self diluted C.) It's a cult The typical boiler plate arguments. The same arguments have existed since Eddy's time an have been propagated for over 100 years now. The problem for Tanner is he's never really experienced any "A ha" moments. He's just another self proclaimed intellectual who thinks he's "got it" and now he's going to to tell the/share with the rest of the world his musings through inference, hyperbole, and other logical fallacies. Which is to say he learned the lingo, studied, but never really truly understood what he was studying.

[@emmak366]

👋🏻 former Christian scientist here if you’d like to hear from me

[@kpeterson1342]

I'm a former Christian Scientist now following the real Jesus. You can ask me anything. And I'm writing a book about my testimony and the delusion of CS that kept me from the joy of worshipping my Saviour my whole life. So I'd be happy to "sharpen my sword" on any questions you may have.

[@kpeterson1342]

@@ZoneTelevision you mean Eddy was "deluded"? which she wasn't. She knew what she was doing. She was a plagiarist and a liar. A phony. And she knew it. Watch Tanner's interview with Doreen Virtue to hear about his "aha" moment. We, as Christian Scientists with a doubt or two along the way have many AHA moments, but we are brainwashed and scolded for doubting the all might Science and Health. Tanner does seem to struggle with explaining the doctrines of Eddy, but for good reason. They are confusing and contradictory. Are you defending Christian Science here? Your comment is quite snarky and unfair. I'd love to give you my point of view on the DELUSION (not dilution) of Christian Science if you'd like to hear something "new" about it other than the "same arguments" which were right 100 years ago and are still right now. Any time.

[@kpeterson1342]

@@alexis1605 that's interesting. As a former Christian Scientist I am curious how you manage that. It's like a Christian Scientist operating a brewery or owning a liquor store or a cigar shop. If you don't mind sharing with me how you reconcile your medical education with the teachings of Science and Health that basically calls medicine evil and a disease nothing but a product of "mortal mind."

[@NowhereNN]

Orthodox Christianity doesn't believe that Jesus was a substitutionary sacrifice. Don't put words in our mouth.

[@rayortiz6189]

the sharp inhales are killin me 😄

[@ritawahn6934]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thought the same thing, same with all of the um's and uh's.

[@magmasunburst9331]

There is a problem when you are so divisive in the body of Christ that you take the most influential Christians (Norman Vincent Peale, Joel Osteen) that have positively affected culture and our general morale and say they are off base. The Bible does say a lot about "He sent His word and healed them" (Psalms). It's the Tower of Babel: we would rather be antagonistic towards each other because our ways our not God's ways. Just do greater works than Jesus did as He said and you can then say you're following the Word.

[@hfk6266]

"All of these religions are going to require a sacrifice" ... all cult/religions do... "Almost like a Stockholm Syndrome" ... You can say this about every cult/religion. I wish for more critical thinking and skepticism... for everyone. Just a thought...

[@sliderinc1]

I think he's off base on this one. I have been checking Creation science/ Christian science this out for years I havn't heard this at all. I think you need to check out Kent ham, Kent Hovind I think you read a book that needs shelving.

[@tommyd3955]

Creation Science and Christian Science are not the same thing. This is about the cult called "Christian Science". Do a little research.

[@jasonmillis8954]

Jesus did teach about healing. Look up the greek words for saved and salvation. They include healing. The majority of Jesus' miracles were healing. He told His disciples to heal. Holy Spirit gives life, quickens the body, vitalizes the flesh. Healing is part of why Christ came, to destroy the works of Satan, sickness, bondage, and death, by His finished work on the Cross, actualized in us, by faith. Jesus' body was broken for our salvation (healing, preservation, protection), His blood was spilt for remission of of our sins. True healing is a spiritual matter, and is only accomplished by faith, along with recieving the Holy Spirit and bearing fruit, again all by faith.

[@TannerJohnsrud]

Yes, Jesus gives true and lasting healing - full redemption and salvation through his life, death, and resurrection But Jesus didn't give techniques for curing cancer or setting broken bones by changing your thought. He gave the disciples power to heal, he didn't give them advanced spiritual knowledge which gave them the ability to heal through their knowledge. (FWIW I actually read New Testament Greek)

[@justachristian4072]

Jesus performed healings. He didn’t TEACH how to heal. He performed miracles so that people would listen to His message, the Gospel.

[@davechristensen8299]

Yes, God still heals. I am not CS any longer, but I did see some real medical miracles in my life, and had several myself. It's not so odd. People can heal in many cultures. Jesus' teachings make it easier. CS people got healings sometimes because they believed and tried. There were just enough legitimate miracles to keep the movement going for a long time.

[@emmak366]

I can’t stand any religion. The sinner has spoken.

[@meomy29]

I'm afraid to hear about all your pro-Calvinism in your videos. I hate that it is so prevalent in today's church. Would love to see people look at things like Congdon Ministries the Tumbling TULIP of Calvinism and other similar ministries.

[@Chirhopher]

25 min in, you call the followers of false teachers victims, but that isn't the heart of the matter. They are perps. Their hearts are wicked and deceitful and they are walking in their evil nature, against GOD, intentionally. Rapists have been victimized, but that doesn't mean we say they are victims; rather, we say that they are evil. Just because an evil person has had evil done to them does not mean that they themselves aren't evil.

[@hillaryjohnsrud9430]

I was raised in Christian Science and wanted with my whole heart to serve the true God... I just didn't know Him... I know I was guilty of that sin but at the same time, I wasn't *intentionally* 'walking in my evil nature against God,' as you say... Again, guilty, but I do feel I was also a victim of false teaching...

[@plsspayorneuter]

People sin. People commit wicked acts. They are not the act. Only Satan IS evil. Love thy neighbor.

[@ZoneTelevision]

@@hillaryjohnsrud9430 Last I checked "A Tree is known by it's fruit". Remember that one ? Ya'll are making claims about "false teaching" yet providing little more than dissatisfied hyper-opinionated criticisms (and analysis) of the Church, its congregants, It's Revelator, and those who selflessly gave their lives for the good of others and then asserting it as "truth". It leaves one with the impression that you never had any monumental or "miraculous" healings,...ever, and just caved to a (convenient) "truth" or what I've often referred to as Coloring Book Christianity i.e. Nicene Creed, Holy Trinity etc.. One could easily entertain the same criticisms of Jesus disciples (and the Apostles) or ..even Jesus himself. Hell, Atheists do it all the time. Arguing over what is (or isn't) of God implies that you're more interested in intellectual arm wrestling exercises than actually BEING a Christian. Sad. I've seen this happen over and over and over again for decades and its always the same ole story. It occurs to me that people (like yourselves) hide behind this notion that you somehow now have the moral high-ground and have "seen the light" because you've adopted all of the same boiler plate criticisms and talking points that enjoin you to bad mouth others because it makes you feel better about your life choices. Bravi. You've just become hypocrites. Slandering those who are no longer here to defend themselves and then ascribing to yourselves the roles of "victim" are hardly the characteristics befitting of a Christian. How can you even call yourselves (Christian) whilst in the same breath crucifying those whose only motives were to bless others? Seems to me neither you or Tanner never really understood what it means to be "Christian" in the first place. You'd have to learn what it means to be Christian FIRST before even beginning to assimilate the (Science) aspect to faith. From where I'm sitting it occurs to me ya'll have a long way to go. Historical footnote: Gnostics where never really a threat to anyone and whilst I wouldn't agree with most there theological musings (though they have some echoes that point the (believer) in the right direction), many were put to death by "Christians".

[@hillaryjohnsrud9430]

@@ZoneTelevision hey, not sure if you wanted me to reply, but here goes: Arguably what is 'Christian' should be determined based on the teachings of Jesus (and by Jesus' choice, Paul).. and they both warn extensively about false gospels. I think these days, non-Christians or pseudo-Christians assume 'Christian' means 'nice and non-judgmental at all costs' even at the cost of truth, whereas the Bible points to 'Christian' as meaning 'one who follows Jesus, one who has repented of sin and believes and accepts the good news of the gospel, salvation through faith in Jesus' atoning death on the cross.' (Ironically, the gospel is articulated over and over in the Bible, but Christian Scientists, who claim to believe the Bible, focus on the healings of Jesus and the apostles, while summarily rejecting the basic gospel they preached.) I can understand why someone who hasn't been hurt by the teachings of Christian Science would see it as something to respectfully disagree with rather than outright warn against. But I have had multiple friends and family members die from a lack of medical care because they were taught by the Christian Science Leader's textbook as well as by Christian Scientists, that to choose medical care is to reject God. And every single Christian Scientist I know, both former and current members, struggles from the emotional/psychological abuse of believing that their sickness, financial problems, marital problems, etc., are all their fault for not being 'good enough' Christian Scientists -- that God would heal them if they could just have a little more faith/understanding. I see them hide in shame when they are sick, or if they do seek medical care, they usually do it secretly, hiding their medicine where their family won't see it and judge them, getting kicked out of branch churches or CS schools for taking medicine or having life-saving surgery, etc. (The CS cultural tide is shifting on medical care overall, but this is still in direct opposition to the teachings, so that doesn't help its strictest adherents.) I have also known around a dozen ex-CS people who were sexually abused within CS but who, when they went to other CS adults for help, were told "that's not who he/she really is as God's perfect child" and asked to forget about it. Yes, I have seen Christian Science healings, whether those were miracles God allowed, or the body healing itself, or what, there are also countless tragedies where CS didn't 'work' -- but in those cases, they always blame the CS 'practitioner,' the patient, or 'world thought,' -- CS never gets the blame. From your tone, I wouldn't expect you to believe me, but our motive in taking a stand against CS is love for our family and friends who remain in it. All cults/destructive groups are misguided, and many of them are dangerous. And Christian Science is a dangerous one. Would you take your sick child to a doctor? Or would you give him some apple juice and play CS hymns and pray the problem would disappear? Would you spend money you didn't have because 'divine Love has infinite supply' and 'your life should reflect limitless good'? Would you encourage a mother and child to stay with a physically and sexually abusive husband and father because 'that's not who he really is as God's child' and 'if you see who he really is, he will be healed'? Because I've seen all of that and more in CS. I know there is evil and abuse within EVERY religious and cultural system, but my point is that Christian Science theology leads directly to this kind of suffering...

[@ZoneTelevision]

@@hillaryjohnsrud9430 1.) Quote: Arguably what is 'Christian' should be determined based on the teachings of Jesus (and by Jesus' choice, Paul).. and they both warn extensively about false gospels. Reply: Yes. 2.) Quote: I think these days, non-Christians or pseudo-Christians assume 'Christian' means 'nice and non-judgmental at all costs' even at the cost of truth, whereas the Bible points to 'Christian' as meaning 'one who follows Jesus, one who has repented of sin and believes and accepts the good news of the gospel, salvation through faith in Jesus' atoning death on the cross.' (Ironically, the gospel is articulated over and over in the Bible, but Christian Scientists, who claim to believe the Bible, focus on the healings of Jesus and the apostles, while summarily rejecting the basic gospel they preached.) Reply: Being a Christian/Scientist does not equate to just being a “good human”. You’re making “hasty generalizations”. Oh I know the whole “saved by grace” mantra. Begs the question if any Christian even understand what is implied by Grace. No a Christian /.. or Scientist should be mostly concerned with the 10 commandments the Sermon on the mount and “be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” Because why should we take Jesus word for anything now ? You do remember why the Puritans fled Europe right ? The Puritans unanimously rejected the Roman Catholic doctrine of baptismal regeneration etc . They also rejected the idea in Ecclesiastical hierarchies and yet there were schisms among them and Voila ... AMERICA. “Summarily rejecting the gospel they preached” the assumption is that the Gospel has been "rejected" according to the dictates of doctrinal cannon taught in most seminaries. How quaint. 3.) Quote: “ I can understand why someone who hasn't been hurt by the teachings of Christian Science would see it as something to respectfully disagree with rather than outright warn against.” Reply: Peculiar. Your assertion is a Strawman. Atheists make similar claims to persons of faith because they lack the (empirical evidence) that a God even exists. And so, since Christians are charged with “proving” that something intangible to the physical world “exists” they are “wrong”. (Christians) make the truth claim that Christian Science Teachings are “harmful”. That is a bit like saying Gravity is harmful because ones fails to understand the conditions under which and how gravity works. A crude analogy but speaks the point. So thousands of persons who have claimed and declared health (by faith) and I being one such person) are “wrong” because we were able to repeat the results as a consequence of relying on God for health ? One of two things is true. Either the people have been healed by faith, or they we are lying and a third explanation is in order. 4.) Quote: But I have had multiple friends and family members die from a lack of medical care because they were taught by the Christian Science Leader's textbook as well as by Christian Scientists, that to choose medical care is to reject God. And every single Christian Scientist I know, both former and current members, struggles from the emotional/psychological abuse of believing that their sickness, financial problems, marital problems, etc., are all their fault for not being 'good enough' Christian Scientists -- that God would heal them if they could just have a little more faith/understanding. I see them hide in shame when they are sick, or if they do seek medical care, they usually do it secretly, hiding their medicine where their family won't see it and judge them, getting kicked out of branch churches or CS schools for taking medicine or having life-saving surgery, etc. Reply: False Dichotomy Argument. Death would appear to an inevitable consequence of being mortal irrespective of how long one survives in this world. So your assertions that CS is “False” because people who chose prayer vs medical and die are now “victims” because they were "lied to"... SMH. I’ve seen this too often. Most Christians ... and Scientists tend to think that they can walk on water or they act like they can are the ones that often fail. It's all about humility. 5.) Quote: (The CS cultural tide is shifting on medical care overall, but this is still in direct opposition to the teachings, so that doesn't help its strictest adherents.) Reply: Yeah... tyranny is a bitch. 6.) QUOTE: I have also known around a dozen ex-CS people who were sexually abused within CS but who, when they went to other CS adults for help, were told "that's not who he/she really is as God's perfect child" and asked to forget about it. REPLY: That's unfortunate. How about this. I've been to prison. All of my family is gone. I've been homeless, Most everyone that I've known is gone. So I could do one of two things. Give into Nihilism and indifference or continue my journey and carry my own Cross whilst enduring the the lies you and your betrothed continue your selfish quest and Crusade of slander, mal-practice and anti-Christian sentiments. In the words of Davey Jones...."Do you fear death?" Me, ..a great deal less than I used to. 7.) Quote: Yes, I have seen Christian Science healings, whether those were miracles God allowed, ...or the body healing itself, REPLY: "The body healing itself" I always chuckle at this statement. All things material will end in dust. And make up your mind. Either they were healings or they weren't. 8.) Quote: or what, there are also countless tragedies where CS didn't 'work' -- but in those cases, they always blame the CS 'practitioner,' the patient, or 'world thought,' -- CS never gets the blame. From your tone, I wouldn't expect you to believe me, but our motive in taking a stand against CS is love for our family and friends who remain in it. All cults/destructive groups are misguided, and many of them are dangerous. And Christian Science is a dangerous one. Reply: Well God is the author of all creation right ? Assuming you've now adopted the "Creationism" mantra so based on that rationale you'll inevitably have to conclude that God F&^k'd up. Which puts you on the path to Atheism. Don't come at me later and say I didn't tell you. 9.) Quote: Would you take your sick child to a doctor? Reply: I was a child taken to a doctor. I would liken my my mother to one who was a “great rock in a weary land” I was instantaneously healed of polio, a broken jaw (witnessed by surgeons). A severed finger that was sowed back together where gangrene had consumed the entire figure and the doctors wanted to cut it off. Mother refused and yes she caught holy hell but I was the better for it. The finger was restored as was witnessed by the surgeons to their shear disbelief . The world is an ugly place and pseudo-Christians (and CS’s) are satiating humans with a false convenient peace. I saw the writing on the wall decades ago as to what was happening to the Church and decided having Children would present far too many obstacles (both for them) and myself. Propagating human kind is like inviting unwilling participants into a game of Whack-O-Mole. The medical industrial complex has become one of the “Gods” of this world. One cannot be doubly minded. We will all cross the threshold the questions you and Christians will inexorably have to wrestle with is will you know how to contend with the problems that you have here failed to solve. Jesus is NOT the guy at the bar buying everyone free drinks. 10.) Quote: Or would you give him some apple juice and play CS hymns and pray the problem would disappear? ……… Reply: Cute. Ad hominem much ? How about this. You’re in the middle of the ocean 1000 miles from anywhere, the boat is being pummeled by waves, you’re getting tossed around inside the boat like a rag doll doing face plants into bulkheads. You think you’ve broken an arm and your nose and you’re bleeding profusely. All your systems are down and no one knows where you are and you have no way of communicating to the outside world. Your boat is taking on water, your ditch bag and life raft are gone. What would you do…… Gas lighting and hypotheticals will get you into trouble every time so don’t go there.

[@Guy-em4ck]

People in a cult talking about cults.

[@emmak366]

Basically.