Cutting Down to 100 Cards | Commander Clash Podcast 163

[@siltygaming5067]

“You don’t want your hand to be counter, counter, sweeper, swords” Crimes face: 🥴

[@PSroka]

The best commander lesson I ever had: cut bad cards that are only good when your commander is in play. learned this from Yarok

[@jamesgreenwood1703]

I think it depends on the perceived threat level of your commander and how much you invest into keeping it around. So for example Kaalia decks shouldn’t follow this heuristic bc she is the enabler for the whole deck. Yarok is more of an amplifier which means that he really doesn’t do anything by himself so him being a high target “do nothing” card makes it way higher risk for a much worse up front payoff

[@karlon7132]

I agree, but what are Obeka players going to do? Cut the whole deck?

[@genesis4322]

Yes and no. If your deck needs your commander out to do it's thing it's a bit hard to justify.

[@immortalunicorn2544]

If Tomer and Crim weren't a part of clash for a season, Phil would win every game. Seth, Richard, and Phil would all just stare at each other when Phil plays a giant threat on turn 5.

[@orpheos9]

Yet again, I connect most with Tomer. As someone who primarily plays paper magic, when I brew a new deck, I leave out all the cards that cost more than like 5 bucks unless they are absolutely core to the deck. I play the deck a couple times and if I am liking the deck, I will gradually upgrade it with those expensive cards, particularly in areas I find more fun in the deck based on my actual play experience. Leaving out the "staples" that so many commander influencers talk about also has the added benefit of most of the time, I never add them in later because I realize I can still have fun and a decent win percentage without spending 20 bucks on a heroic intervention or 40 bucks on a cyclonic rift.

[@Slurreful]

Same, I'd rather build 20 100 dollar decks than 5 500 dollar decks with all the staples for each color. The brewing without the most powerful and good staples is the most fun part in commander, making it work with "worse" cards.

[@cleanaccount9991]

Absolutely agree, not only is it better for your wallet, it is so easy to deckbuild, as it pushes you to optimize each card, and the pricier upgrades become obvious as you can see which cards don’t perform as well.

[@tomerabramovici32]

Yup! By forcing yourself to find alternatives to generic staples you might discover that you don't actually need the same expensive staples in every single deck.

[@kylegonewild]

I always just run Angel's Grace over T-Pro. I have a playset from the very early meme days of Death's Shadow when Modern was just starting and 90% of the time T-Pro is there to save *me* not my board. I build redundancy and recursion into my decks to offset things like boardwipes.

[@delailama736]

The staples are so boring too. My biggest annoyance with Magic players is that they always seem like very creative, imaginative types but then play the most boring similar decks. It's so lame to play in a pod against someone who plays 3 different decks with like 10 of the same card in each one.

[@MrCrimAngel]

the only reason why low interaction works for Seth is because Crim and Tomer pick up the weight. There are less Crim's and Tomer's in normal pods so it does not work out well

[@blaaaarrrrgMTG]

56:26 One Crim to hate them all, One Crim to fight them. One Crim to counter, wrath, and situationally spite them.

[@jaysonking4055]

It's ironic because crim became an aggro player Although he still has am abnormal number of remal and counters Also manages to make everything stax

[@stevenpoche6988]

@@jaysonking4055 He started playing Aggro because he realized it was the best way to counter durdle players in Commander.

[@mikov6486]

Bars

[@BrootalMetalBanjo]

I’m in with Crim on situational cards are what make commander commander.

[@deansilvers9088]

I want to eventually build a niche tribal deck where every card is super conditional. Having a story of a situational card being incredible is priceless.

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

@@deansilvers9088 I mean sure but don't get rilled up when everyone else's deck does their thing and your sitting their unable to play the game. I am all for playing niche and janky cards but I first and foremost make sure I'm playing a functional deck.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Being situational is one of the balancing factors they use for cards. Generally, a card being situational means its going to be way more efficient than generically powerful cards. Murder is 3 mana, and Doom Blade is 2. That same design principle stretches across the whole game.

[@ryancromer2110]

Keep in mind the games crim plays vs the games we play are vastly different. He's playing content creator games non stop, you are playing against real people.

[@travisholcomb8787]

Richard: “First thing I cut is situational cards” Also Richard: *plays every piece of catch up ramp*

[@gerardlevert7]

Son suggested cutting inkshield. Get him out of here coach.

[@prod.fffeedback7679]

the condition in which you catch up ramp is every game if you play bounce lands and lotus field/vale

[@PalPlays]

Richard: Removal is worthless Also Richard: Anybody got removal for this giant threat?

[@wedgearyxsaber]

Removal for thee not for me: his point and in his discussion is he just over utilizes/ abuses the tactic others will remove it, when in reality, these players should just say "I'm holding a [insert removal piece] I will not use this specific piece of you focus Richard/apply pressure to Richard" so then said player with removal can remove it in the future with a different removal piece or something.

[@akihitokoizumi2474]

Also only puts one counter spell in the 100 card deck because he never wants to have more than 1 in hand at anytime.

[@thefirstonion7741]

you kid, but this is literally his point

[@RBGolbat]

Richard: I can’t cut removal cause I don’t play removal

[@intoarainstorm]

he plays wraths as his removal, why don't you guys understand this?

[@bruvaroni]

I did what Richard suggested when I was building Gishath. I took out every piece of interaction that wasn't a dinosaur. That deck has only ever lost once. Worth trying folks

[@ZeroCr0w]

The question I always ask when cutting down decks is “would I ever tutor for this?” Edit: I wrote this before finishing. Kinda happy to hear Richard and I share this idea.

[@T_Peazy]

Richard is absolutely coping. All his catch-up ramp, fogs, and board wipes are situational.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Fogs are a situation that comes up so often that it's hard to say it's situational. You're never going to be in a position where a fog is a dead card. You can certainly find yourself in a situation where a board wipe is a dead card.

[@TheAlmightyGoiter]

​@@dontmisunderstand6041if a board wipe is situational, then a fog is too.

[@Graatand]

Is catch-ramp really situational? 1.5 players will go before you on average, and unless they manage to miss their 3rd land drop, your Knight of the White Orchid, Loyal Warhound and Sand Scout will be online.

[@thatepicwizardguy]

@@TheAlmightyGoiter bro, fogs are GIGA situational... more than board wipes honestly. pillowfort decks, combo, durdle, etc all tend to not love swinging creatures. ALSO 2/3 times somebody isn't really swinging at you and chances are you don't necessarily wanna dump a fog into that. fogs are wayyyyyyyyyy easier to cut than an extra board wipe in MOST decks and MOST games.

[@moonstatue9657]

the epsiodes about cutting past 100 cards he literally put a fog as the first example and said 2 fogs is max. would you rather cut your fogs ramp and board whipes or your lands and key spells?

[@stinkysteve05]

Love Tomer’s point of keeping the mana base and just refreshing the other 60-65 cards and commander; def an idea to try for sure and sounds like a great CC episode for the future!

[@nomeacuerdo]

Richard: “remove all the situational cards” Also Richard Leaves Obscuring Haze and Maze of Ith in every deck

[@peewee0224]

I agree about the fog part being weird but maze is one of the best removal spells in commander its not even funny lol that card is op

[@Metroid23456]

Maze is one of the most underplayed cards in commander. Card is absolutely cracked

[@nothingbutstatic]

Maze is the opposite of a situational card. It was one of the only cards (that, sol ring, and to a lesser extent icy manipulator) I ran in basically every deck I played in the old days because it was a very effective way to semi-permanently deal with whatever the biggest attacker on the board was for the price of a land drop.

[@imaginarymatter]

If you factor in mana costs and mana curves it is pretty easy to make cuts. For example, if you have a 4 cmc commander who you want to play asap the bar for other 4 drops in your deck becomes much higher because you won't play them as soon as you hit 4 mana because you have your commander. Also, an alternative to cutting lands is to cut ramp (if you ramp but miss land drops you're paying mana to accomplish less).

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

In theory sure, but what happens when a lot of your main synergy/ high impact cards clash with that. With the amount of great options new and old it becomes more and more difficult to make those kinds of cuts.

[@gdmikester4302]

I think this is true in part but sometimes you are playing a deck where the best cards and your commander are at the same mv. A good example of this is Kadena, who wants to play cards like Beast whisperer, ugin's mastery and guardian project to build a stronger engine, wilderness reclamation and panoptic projektor to cheat on mana, and other valuable morph support like the new vannifar and some flash enablers like leyline of anticipation. This doesn't apply to most decks but its something to consider

[@Jack-in-the-Mox]

dude i love my Kadena deck! most the cards you mention here dont actually make my final cut. I play the new Vanifar and elven chorus, ugins mastery and a few other 4s. But the flash outlets are 3 mana, think Urzas battlethopter, skittering cicada and War vivien.

[@Jack-in-the-Mox]

you dont really need beast whisperer, new outlaws Satoru plays better :) and other synergies like rescuing your face up morphs with cards like paradoxical outcome

[@gdmikester4302]

@@Jack-in-the-Mox I do think leyline is still worth playing because of the first ability. I would also play final word phantom (when i get one) over the flash colorless guys for flexibility, although vivien is still good. I play satoru also but you need redundancy with that effect in experience unless you are playing a bunch of creature tutors. I also cant imagine a world where the cards I mentioned don't make the final cut tbh and cards like paradoxical outcome do, but I guess we each have different lists elven chorus Ive been meaning to try out. I actually think out of all the cards here vannifar is the most cuttable tbh, just kind of low impact and only really good for saving mana on manifest costs

[@covfefe5842]

I like to do a quick quadrant analysis on my decks and separate the cards into piles according to what’s good when I’m behind, at parity, ahead, or all the time. For example, if I am playing Faldorn, impulse draw is excellent 100% of the time, something like collector ouphe is mostly only good if I am behind, etc. After that, I tend to cut the cards that are really only strong in the extremes (i.e., situational cards or win-more cards).

[@matthugenberg8869]

I just 1) always put in my number of lands first, and 2 ) never go above 100 cards. Once you hit 100, you start cutting a single card for another single card. It makes life a lot easier and it also shows you whats important in the deck and what isn't.

[@hyoroemongaming569]

The video up 23 minutes ago ffs

[@brianpendleton2674]

This sounds effective except when it comes to lines and packages. 140 you can see more total strats that 100 and you can narrow down to a main, backup, and tertiary game plan pieces or just filter how much draw vs removal etc.

[@Kestral287]

@@brianpendleton2674 If you didn't start your deck by building in a given line or package, the odds that it's important are very low.

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

This is how set does it.

[@yScribblezHD]

I started doing this because I'd always have so much trouble cutting down. This is the way that worked for me 😎

[@hazzenko_]

I had a "side" to my Grenzo, Havoc Raiser. My main deck list an aggro with evasive creatures to trigger it. The second list is focused to steal opponent's creatures. The third list is a goblin tribal. It keeps the deck fresh anytime I play it.

[@markmittelbach7975]

10:20 correct editing choice.

[@nathanchan8495]

The problem with expecting the other players at the table to interact on your behalf with Swords or wraths is if anyone plays problems that asymmetrically affect the board. In the worst case, if someone plays something like a Collector Ouphe and everyone else doesn't rely that much on artifacts but you do, then you're screwed when people don't cast their removal on it because it's shutting you down but not them, and you don't have any answers to it.

[@timbombadil4046]

Richard is relying on clash games to include such cards less since staxing out a table doesn't let everyone's deck shine and therefore make for less entertaining to watch of games. Essentially it's not a strategy that works in every meta.

[@Infernoman64]

My solution is those extra 20 ish cards I cut are the "sideboard" for when I want to mix it up and change my deck so it's still fresh and new.

[@ryantomczak2248]

You guys need to do a series for Commander Clash. My idea is commander gauntlet. You build 5 commander decks with the normal rules except for the following change. No card outside of basic lands can be repeated amongst the five decks. Each week you play a different one of the 5 decks.

[@kurowasanabe]

I've said it before, but the best way to cut down is not to cut down but to start from the absolute essentials and add from there until you get 100.

[@akumacode]

i like to do it the same way. start with the bare minimums and then add in places depending on how i want the deck to play

[@peewee0224]

Yes same. I usually cut all cards I have to think about and only keep cards that are must. And then choose from the pile of thinking cards which to put in

[@scaredycat3146]

This works great for construction but not at all for maintenance sadly. Didn't update a deck for a quarter? Here are five new sets with twenty new cards for your theme. Time to get to cutting again.

[@ecoKady]

I've been having trouble getting a 'good fundamentals' deck based around 1-power creatures with Zinnia. This strategy helped so much. Thanks for the new perspective!

[@nothingbutstatic]

Yeah but you may only have like 20 cards that are truly "essential" to what your deck is trying to do. Then you might have another 20 cards worth of staples--counters, wraths, fogs, spot removal, tutors, card draw, ramp--that help your deck function and keep you alive long enough to get those essential pieces into play. Factor in lands and cards that serve a dual purpose, and you're left with 20-30 slots to fill with things that synergize with your deck and fit the theme but aren't necessarily essential. And yes, you start with the land base, staples, and cards core to the function of the deck, but you might have 60-70 cards that could go in those last 20-30 slots and that's where it can get tricky to decide what to keep and what to cut.

[@Medicinalmagic911]

Every one of my 20 decks has an additional 30 or 40 cards. Sleeved touched behind it in the box just in case I get bored or need some spice. Also, I can use that to power up or power down the deck depending on the pod. 27:38 🎉

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

What kind of deck boxes do you use to fit all that?

[@Medicinalmagic911]

@@Blacklodge_Willy generic boulders do fine for me however I only single sleeve my decks since a majority of the expensive cards that I’ve taken into public are proxies.

[@deansilvers9088]

I think the 'scry to the bottom' theory needs more context. I goldfish quite a bit with my decks, and generally know which tier each of my cards lie in (top 10 cards, what cards to get in what situation, etc.). This includes cards that aren't special, but are definitely in the top 100 cards I'd want to have. So, if a certain card is the 80th best card in my deck, I'd usually scry it to the bottom, but it deserves its place in my configuration. So just because a card is 'below average' in your deck doesn't necessarily mean you should cut it.

[@surfinggarchomp2820]

Also because of toolboxes, I may be playing a “bad” card as a tutor target

[@kylegonewild]

It's too narrow and situational of a standard to apply. "Would you scry it to the top or bottom?" Well that entirely depends on the current game or the meta I'm in.

[@yScribblezHD]

It should be implied that you need to use your brain when applying that standard. Obviously if you're goldfishing and you draw a boardwipe, you have no targets. But if there's a card you'd find you're consistently scrying to the bottom you should consider if it's fulfilling a purpose often enough to keep.

[@seanfallon2271]

One way I start cutting that was not brought up at all is looking at the mana value of cards, and just start shaving off the top end. Fewer of the 7, 8, 9 drops is often just correct. I love the big flashy spells but you don't want to have 3 of them uncastable in your hand on turns 1-5

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Having a bomb in your hand ready to drop feels nice though. Having 3 feels safe. As long as you're still playing something on each turn at least. Though with 3 in your first 12 cards of the game, you're either missing a land drop, casting your commander instead of a card in hand, or simply not casting on each turn. Food for thought: Top-decking a 1 drop on turn 10 is usually way more detrimental than having a 7 drop waiting for you in your starting hand. For this reason, I tend to value 4 drops more highly than other spells. They almost always have enough oomph to make an impact in the late game, and are devastatingly powerful in the early game. They tend not to run into the problem that the high and low cost spells do, they're just always good.

[@Nathanael_Forlorn]

I've just finished the one-and-a-half year long process of getting down to 100 for my first edh deck. Sometimes it was fun, sometimes agony - but it's done. Now, win in the lottery to afford it. :D

[@Slippils]

The "moonfolk" test is something I keep in mind when deck building and cutting, but primarily think of while actually playing. Deck building is a constant process and every draw is a chance to think "how do I feel about getting this card?" and the follow on "what is the card I'm wishing to see?". If you're often unhappy with a card and it's never the one you're wishing for... it's a cut.

[@RyanEglitis]

What I do that helps most is put cards into category piles so I know why they're in the deck. Then anything left over from ramp/card draw/removal/lands has to have a good reason for being there. Often I can cut 10-15 cards off the bat with that. It also helps make cuts, as I can rank all the ramp cards against each other and cut down to say the best 15 pieces. And of course, pieces that fall in multiple categories get extra points when ranking. Second method after that to make final cuts is to curve sort into piles to make sure I don't have 15 3 drops and 20 4 drops. Smooth out the numbers as best as I can by cutting the weakest, then circle back to the other method if I'm still stuck.

[@Larkinzzz]

I used to stare at my screen for hours trying to cut down from 103 to 100 cards, but I've changed my deck building process. These days I build a deck from the bottom up instead of from the top down, my list never exceeds 100 cards anymore. The trick is to build a deck of 90 cards and then consider what the deck still needs more of for the remaining 10 slots.

[@p45yourfired3]

I've only been playing a short time but you guys have really helped, I've built like 5 decks but I always stick to certain rules to enjoy myself, no tutors (except for basic lands) no extra turn spells no fast mana and nothing that will completely lock people out of the game. I enjoy the randomness of my decks, best case scenario a turn 6 win if I get the ideal draws if not my deck will be stable enough to just enjoy playing. The randomness and difference between each game is what makes it enjoyable.

[@ho-cq9ow]

I used to use the method of category (ramp, removal, card draw) sorting exclusively (giving bonus value to cards that fit in multiple categories) I started running into issues, specifically I kept putting cards in that were excessively flexible in order to put in cards that were more fun or interesting and it led to what I started nicknaming the Chandra problem. To explain the name I started finding myself including Chandra, Torch of Defiance in all my red decks because it can impulse draw cards, ramp you, and remove some threats, I realized as I played with these decks that although I had “10” ramp pieces or whatever because they were all basically the same cards I would run into more situations where I would always be looking for the same cards and have many games I didnt find any ramp or card draw or removal because so much of it was doubling up as something else which led to many hands not having any of it. The other problem with this was that if I spent one of those flexible cards as one of their modes then I often couldnt use it for the other (such as a card like archdruids charm). This ended up giving me problems for a long time where I couldnt figure out why I never found anything useful besides my theme cards. Took me a long time to realize what was going wrong.

[@brandondrake69]

It’s pretty easy, just cut lands 😊

[@EM10gamer]

A note on Inkshield, you get a 2/1 Inkling for each 1 DAMAGE prevented, so it’s not like Arachnogenesis. If your opponent swings with 1 big threat it can still be worth it to Inkshield to get like 10 Inklings.

[@RyanEglitis]

Of course, but if they don't swing, you held up 5 mana for nothing. The card is obviously powerful when it works, the problem is the opportunity cost of putting yourself in that situation.

[@jasonhart543]

This is one of the things I love most about playing a lot of red. Those cards you consistently bin or let go to exile in your "card draw" shows you quickly what to cut for that newest hotness.

[@beerman2000]

I very much liked Tomer's idea of cutting the cards you know you want to include, giving the deck a chance to show off the other cards (good or bad). Then after you've seen which are duds you know what's replacing it. That way you don't have to add these 5 "maybe" cards and start testing all over.

[@matheusrudzevicius6448]

Seth's way is the way lol, i do that all the time, i hate when i fuck up and end up with 102-103 cards, but usually the way i do it is just playing the deck a couple times by myself and see what works best

[@brendans1983]

40:14 🤯 epiphany moment, this is a great idea. I thought i had levelled up enough as a deck builder, but this philosophy is epic 🍻

[@shogun452]

Situational cards are also situational to decks. A card like inkshield is going to suck in a tap out creature deck, because it’ll be difficult to leave that mana open and advance your plan, but it’ll be great in a control deck that’s always leaving open mana anyway. It’s worth considering what your deck is doing, and if your deck is taking the best advantage of situational cards.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

the first thing i cut - winmore cards. damage doublers, panharmonicon, and other do this thing an additional time cards.

[@ManrielXiii]

I cut coffee

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

The things you just described aren't win-more cards. The best example of what the term "win-more card" means would be Fierce Guardianship. It literally only helps you win if you were already winning. It gives you a clear advantage, but you had to be winning already to get the advantage it gives. Being synergistic doesn't make something a win-more card. Having a board state doesn't mean you're winning. Comparatively, Fierce Guardianship is only a good card when it can be cast for free... and can only be cast for free on a board state where your opponents have determined that you are the threat, and are casting a spell to change that. Very literally the PURPOSE of the card is to BE a win-more card.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

@@dontmisunderstand6041 fierce guardianship is a counterspell. every blue deck should have them. it's not a winmore card, you're using that term incorrectly.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@edhdeckbuilding Fierce Guardianship is a bad counterspell when not getting the freecast ability, and the freecast ability is a winmore effect. That's what makes it a winmore card. The fact that it's a counterspell is not even relevant, and the fact that you're pointing that out as if it were shows that you either don't understand what you're talking about or are lying on purpose.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

@@dontmisunderstand6041 how does fierce guardianship make you win? think about it. you're using that term incorrectly. winmore is exactly what it sounds. just doing more of the thing that makes you win. counterspells don't fit that description.

[@dmany13]

Editor zooming on on tomers dog. Is the best part of the podcast

[@darthsnarf]

I think tomer is the editor, he does some of them at least

[@HopelesslyTenacious]

Interesting conversation :) the thing that struck me the most was the land conversation, I rarely have more than 34 lands in any given deck, a few mana rocks and a handful of ramp and I’ve never felt pressure by having too many or too few lands in play. Now of course depending on the deck I’ll add in any combination of 5-6 lands , 2-4 mana rocks, or 2-4 ramp spells and those decks are trying to cast 4-5 “4-6” mana+ cards in one turn. But for almost every deck I’ve ever built. I’ve found I’ve never really needed more than 34 and some games I find I’m even too abundant in lands

[@judahjeremydelrio7886]

My worst case was when my Anikthea deck had 210 cards…. that legitimately took me 2 months to cut down.

[@jamesprior8090]

I’ve made only 1 change to the precon, because I knew how much of a headache upgrading the deck would be! And the change was to cut a land for a better card. The deck was so well made that it still curb-stomped the rest of the table as is (though my playgroup doesn’t go hard on power level)

[@TeaHauss]

The best part about inner sleeves with designs is making it very easy to sort out the "sideboard" cards. I haven't done this in paper yet, but I'm *this* close to making the jump

[@maggiek8616]

I've started putting the 101-108th cards of a deck into a 4x4 folder so they don't get lost in the wider collection, and you can often refer back to them, sometimes after a new set has come out with potential new synergies. As far as actual deck building, I try to adhere to the main theme, only specific decks can use Universe Beyond products, and for majority of cards I only own 1 copy so it's about figuring out where they best belong. Keeps decisions to a minimum haha

[@Swellchild]

On subthemes, Older precons often felt unfocused because they'd have some secondary commander stuffed in with a subtheme package to match. Usually the secondary commander and its subtheme are the first to cut (unless you're building around that theme instead). Recently, I've found myself leaning more into subthemes throughout my own deckbuilding. There are so many commanders nowadays that bridge the gap between multiple themes. Some of the more common strategies, like +1 counters, can start to feel repetitive if you don't mix it up. For example, I run a gates deck with Zimone and Dina as the commander. It combines a heavy ramp + Maze's End plan with a "draw second card" subtheme, and light sacrifice synergies. The commander ties these together quite well. Then there's my Kenrith deck. I had planned on doing activated ability tribal, but as I built I found myself leaning into an etb theme. While brewing I came to find that there's a decent amount of creatures that have both etbs and activated abilities: Loran, Alpha Deathclaw, Etali pc. Then there's other creatures with triggers that bridge gap. Emiel the Blessed is the goat. Purphoros gives etb to all creatures, and Thassa triggers etbs over and over. Suddenly, I realized there's a few Gods in my deck. I manage to squeeze in a few more. Scarab God, Locust God, Esika. I already have a World Tree to fix mana, which gives a convenient payoff for running a handful. I once cracked it to fetch out 4 Gods (because I had already drew one) after a board wipe. That was deeply satisfying.

[@andrewgreenwood9068]

The big thing for me is do the subtheme cards support the main theme. Like having a token subtheme in an aristocrats deck can work great because the tokens are also fodder.

[@kamilczajka5197]

For me the best way is to think that it is not 100 cards - it's 100 slots. You can take f.e 38 land slots, 10 mana ramp slots, 5 interaction slots, 5 protection slots, 3 mass removal slots, and the rest is your thematic slots. When you create a commander deck you chose card that fill the proper slot (if it fits more than one slot, just put it where it fits best). Not only you won't have a problem with going over 100 cards, but sometimes you will struggle to fill 100 cards :)

[@LukeColdFire]

Seth around the 45:45 mark basically says the quiet part out loud for Richard, Phil and himself about removing interaction because someone else will probably deal with it. It isn't just this group that does it, it is a common thread among many EDH players.

[@THESCHNEV]

One trick I employ to cut cards is look at other Legendary creatures in the 99 - they often have powerful effects but are tangential to the core strategy of the deck, and cutting these often help to streamline your gameplan.

I used to take a look at the mana curve. For example, if the highest CMC of spells are at 4, or 4 is too high, I use scissors there. Obviously, I try not to run out of draws, board-wipes, ramps... etc.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

Love watching this while I’m actively trying to cut down a deck to 100 cards from 109

[@SamuraiJM]

"Sideboarding" is 100% great for commander! I have plenty of "120 card" decks where I have ~20 or so cards I swap out week to week to keep things fresh.

[@Titanreaver616]

It's interesting this video is coming out now because in the past 20 years, I've never had an issue cutting, and I generally need to find more stuff to make it to 60/100. But I'm building Winter, and I have so many extra cards, some whole packages that put you in a wildly different deck. Which is actually a cool experience.

[@ElisaKaysCauldron]

I just came to the same realization as Seth talking to a group of players about finalizing their decks. I was so confused when almost everyone told me they get 150 cards in a list then cut it down. I'm over here getting my list to 90 cards then adding some of my own special sauces and calling it a day.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

It 100% needs to be called the merfold test that is so funny!

[@demolisherman1763]

The crew talking to us about cutting lands like we’re toddlers is both hilarious and entirely justified

[@Bongus_Bubogus]

I enjoy the win-in-a-can Inkshield slander. Lowers the chances of encountering it.

[@as95ms98]

Whenever I think about cutting a land, I always think of the Animated Short that Phil made about cutting a land and I stop.

[@shawnpariseau9951]

It's really great that yall bring up a "sideboard" In commander. Build a 140 card deck. I do this by grabbing absolutely every card I got that could work. I build the deck to one of the themes and keep a card sleeve box with each deck to adapt the theme as needed. Should we build commander decks with a side board in mind? This can help rule 0 conversations. Like a certain player really despises a theme for a commander but you want to play it. Swap in your secondary theme and see where it goes.

[@nothingbutstatic]

Right...if you start by building your deck with roughly 20-25 core cards that are essential to what your deck is trying to do, 20 staples (counters, wraths, spot removal, tutors, etc.) and 40 lands/mana rocks, that leaves you with 15-20 spots to build around secondary themes. Those spots + a 40-card sideboard allows you have 3 different themes you could play up or down by swapping those last 20 cards in and out, along with a bunch of cards that allow you to power the deck up or down. This can help keep the deck fresh and fun, and also makes it easy to play in a variety of settings.

[@Snowfox11]

@50:28 Seeing how giddy Seth got when Richard said he was going to defend him had me laughing 😂

[@thatepicwizardguy]

heres my trick - get down to like... 105-110~ treat the extra cards as a sideboard to power up/down your deck or replace potentially problematic cards for specific matchups/tables/groups to keep games more fun. that way your deck is slightly more flexible, fun and replayable!

[@LukeDawson22]

I wouldnt have believed it if I didnt hear it for myself. Richard being the voice of reason? Finally chalked up a win! But I think decks with 1 sub theme are fantastic. It gives you that variation week in week out as us regular people play the same deck for months to a year+. Most of my decks have some sort of sub theme to keep the games interesting.

[@MrValentineful]

I have loved Derevi since she was first printed back in 2013. I bought all four decks. My friends chose the others and I was left with the bant deck. For years, I morphed and shifted her. Now I have a core mana base that I use and spaw out spells to make thirteen different variations of Derevi lists. I.E. Enchantments, Artifacts, Flyers, Voltron, Stacks, Super Friends, and so on. Derevi can be the head of almost Bant list and still do well.

[@TheJungleboy2123]

I think what changed my perspective on sub themes the most was when I realized focused decks are often both $$ cheaper and more powerful than a deck with lots of themes. Another way to put it might be that you have to invest much more money in tutors and raw card quality to keep the power level up on a deck that's trying to reliably do a bunch of things where a focused deck can lean more into niche synergies to get power/value.

[@Chibifox]

A useful tip I have, if shuffling all the spell cards together, then randomly pile shuffle them into ten piles. Then I go through each pile in just pull out the weakest card from each pile. Obviously all of them are cards I want to keep, but some are obviously better than others.

[@nothingbutstatic]

Random isn't really a strategy though. Maybe the staple interaction cards are never going to be the weakest, but a card's strength/importance to your deck depends on how well it synergizes with other cards in your deck, and also how much of that particular effect you're playing.

[@MrCrimAngel]

i like the 35-36 land and 15 ramp/mana sources

[@QuasiGame0]

Step 1: Build mana base that can play the commander Step 2 : Puts in all the fun synergy word cards Step 3 : Add veggies (removal, protection, ramp and card draw) Step 4 : Find actual 'secret' synergy Step 5 : Cut inefficient cards Step 6 : rebuild mana base with utility lands and fill empty deck slots with advantageous card draw Step 7 : Play a Game and realise the deck is missing payoffs and wincons

[@lukebortot7625]

In response to cutting theop cards, I think this is something that is crucial to making a casual deck. I always strive to make the 99 cards my deck as close in power level to eachother as possible.

[@williamagoras]

Find where redundancy exists and start cuts there. When you put more flexible cards into your deck there is always overlap.

[@shogun452]

Cut cards you’ve won with already. I know this is a weird idea, but at least for me, if I’ve won with a particular card too many times, it becomes boring to me, and I’ll cut it from my decks. Good examples are things like torment of hailfire, craterhoof, expropriation, teferi’s protection etc. but also cards specific to certain commanders, like a tainted strike with a 10pwr commander. I think it’s more fun to find new ways to win, rather than find ways to get your regular win con.

[@ElDocBruh]

I came to this podcast for answers and I was left with nothing but more questions.

[@onewhosaysgoose4831]

53:00 I have a deck that wins a lot of games because people rely on its ~20 pieces of removal. Showing someone a "Destroy all enchantments" is a great way to bargain for your life. Then just use that turn to finish the gready value engine and dig for a new survive condition.

[@tajsdiscord5952]

This helped me a lot thank you. I was one of the people going down to 32 lands lol

[@fearghaill9738]

I’m with Tomer about leaving out super powerful staples from the first draft of a deck. Not only does it let you test more cards, it also makes it easier to evaluate the list as a whole without needing to wonder if you win because your synergies were effective and consistent, or because TPro saved you or Trouble in Pairs drew you a dozen cards Super-powerful cards can make any pile look good, and hide flaws that would be more obvious if you were forced to play fair magic

[@cybeerus120]

As long as you ramp or card draw you only need around more than 30 lands, but it also depends on how many colors or cost of mana for your spells. I have 2 two color decks that only run 33 lands that is 1/3 of your deck adding 7 more lands doesn't help when you are in drought but gives you more lands when you are flooded.

[@Lazydino59]

Perfect time to drop this I’m boutta hit the road for a work trip 💯 💯

[@muddlewait8844]

I like everyone who appears on this channel, but for a discussion like this there’s something the classic cast brings that no one else can.

[@vaporeon344]

I think situational cards are quite simple. Your deck’s situational cards should account for the situations that your deck would lose, or be put at a MAJOR disadvantage for occurring. That’s why counterspells are the most common situational card. If a certain spell resolving would slaughter your board state, then it’s a great tool to have. The best situational cards are those that have use in their certain situations, and outside of them. In particular, I love March of Swirling Mist and Sundering Eruption for being narrow, and either being consistently excellent outside of it, or game-ending by removing blockers.

[@scottricks1676]

Super paying attention to this one, cutting down is ALWAYS what takes me the longest. Normally coming down from like 200 or so 😢

[@kylekrazymars6726]

Every time I hear fog being brought up in a coversation, it makes me want to try to build a fog deck more and more. 😂😂

[@Groovemancer]

27:55 I have the same sort of thing with a 5 color Kenrith deck. It's basically 50 cards that are lands and mana rocks + mana fixing cards like Chromatic Lantern and Dryad of the Ilysian Grove, then a pile of 150 cards that I pull 50 cards at random and shuffle it into the base 50. There's also no tutors or fetches of any kind so I don't ever get to look through the library, unless an opponent forces me to. It's like a weird mini-cube/sealed sort of deck.

[@andrewgreenwood9068]

25:01 for me the big thing is the subtheme should support the main theme. Say your aristocrats deck has a token subtheme most of the token cards are also a good source of sacrifice fodder. Basically if you draw half main theme and half subtheme your deck should still function well.

[@MrMalorian]

If I'm over, first I break my deck into categories and make sure it's the ratio I want. Then I go through the groups that have too much and identify and remove the worst version until I'm at the right amount. So really, it's about the discipline of having an idea for a deck that breaks down to the card ratio (example: I will have 10 ramp cards)

[@1azertywow]

Just don't put more than 100cards when building, so no need to cut down ;D

[@tomdoetsch8603]

Yeah, this is exactly what I do and I never have to cut down 😂

[@judahjeremydelrio7886]

My worst case was when my Anikthea deck had 210 cards…. that legitimately took me 2 months to cut down.

[@sunflowertheog]

​@@judahjeremydelrio7886 how do u keep adding cards after like 115

[@judahjeremydelrio7886]

@@sunflowertheogI fell so in love with Anikthea and there are SO many enchantress payoffs

[@patriciaboggs8882]

​@@sunflowertheog Easy, I don't count how many cards there are as I'm adding them. I would just go through my collection and set aside every card I thought might be good for the deck. Then I sorted and chose which ones stayed. The worst was when I was building an artifact deck. There are so many interesting options. I ended up with about 5 or 6 hundred cards. Obviously I couldn't figure out how to fit everything I wanted so I made about 5 artifact decks with each focusing on different ideas.

[@markmason2216]

Richard! Great point about the "Scry". I used to use a guideline that was ... "Have I ever HOPED more than anything this was the next card I would draw off the top of my deck" If not, why is it there?

[@TwintailNami]

Utility lands like maze of ith and glacial chasm are great to play along with urborg, yavimaya, dryad and other effects like that

[@jacobhholt]

Precons don't even have just one commander, most from what I remember gave you three choices of a commander to play, each their sub-theme, a deck that can operate optimally 1/3 of it's true power.

[@robertruybal7172]

I build a deck list of 110-115 cards. I then buy the cheapest 100 cards, play it a few times, and then re-evaluate adding those more expensive cards. It helps make sure those more expensive cards deserve to be there. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. My original 100 card deck is rarely a finished product.

[@Foddman]

Man the lands discussion blew my mind.. 37 is where I start and even then I'm trying to cut a few unless I'm playing 4/5c 34 land club

[@elliotted6690]

For me, a lot of my cutting is helped by just setting hard limits for certain types of cards. When I start building a deck I go with 38 lands, ten pieces of ramp, ten draw pieces of removal/interaction, and ten draw spells. That leaves 31 remaining cards for the theme. I can obviously have more of those categories, but I'll only include more of a given card if it also fits the theme. Like, maybe I'll add something that is a narrow card draw spell because it draws me cards for casting artifacts and I'm an artifact deck.

[@Belena711]

One of the things I do to help cut is focus on molding my curve. Make sure the average CMC is appropriate for your lands/ramp, as well. Also along those lines, depending on the deck's strategy, I'll go a lot lighter on cards that have the same CMC as my commander. (Of course, that depends a lot, and you don't want to be dumb about it.)

[@tommarren3809]

I end up using the 'remove one from each category' cutting strat a lot for combo decks, and that determines a lot of whether I think a deck is viable. I'll start with (hopefully) around 10 iterations of combo pieces for each necessary component. For example- 10 free sac outlets, 10 token generators and 10 blood artists. I'll cut those more or less evenly, and if I have to go below 8 for combo pieces the deck is probably too unfocused to be really viable without dropping subthemes.

[@Elbleino]

Tomer, I didn't need that last take at the end in my life. NOW I"LL ALWAYS KNOW I'M MISSING A CARD

[@snowmanO07]

I’m a “140 cards, now I have to cut 40” guy, and it is normally pretty easy to deduplicate and cut to 120. I then normally cut the 20 cards that have a cheaper alternative, landing me at about $110-$170 for the deck. Then it is easy to slowly upgrade over time, card for card, and I’m not out $400 if it’s not what I was expecting it to be!

[@wdeborde]

I've found that in my brain that cutting can be difficult but if I say put 150 cards into a Maybeboard and using that pool, bring cards into the 99 I am much more able to make a solid deck. Its also gives me a readily available list of things to tweak the deck with or evaluate new cards for the deck.

[@ethanglaeser9239]

I think "situational cards" is a difficult category to define, because the other reality of Commander is that a long 4-player game just creates a large quantity of situations. I like the example of Keep Watch here. That card relies on multiple creatures attacking, which is situational, but also just always happens all the time.

[@Tayahmaryanne]

This is so funny to me, but I realize that's because I collect by drafting. All my draft leftovers go into binders and boxes, and when I look to build a commander deck, I pick an interesting build-around, then flick through my collection and look for things that go with it. I always make a first version that just includes the best possible permutation from what I have in hand, then jam some games and tinker from there. If I hate it, it goes back into the heap, and if I love it, I trade for upgrades. I have one Teferi's Protection, and it lives in one of the beloved decks. I've never once considered conceptually brewing the most-optimized version with all the staples then having to trim it down to 100. I might check EDHRec later if something isn't working right, but I make sure to only build within my existing means.

[@tygiffin8131]

One thing I try to do is make more cards in my deck work in multiple ways/fill multiple categories. So I can pick what I need in the moment.

[@h2muller]

I have been playing 61 cards in my 60-card formats since 2009, it’s been my personality too for a long time

[@baltosstrupelos302]

Teferi's Protection has always been The Great White Catch up Ramp Enabler!