We Try to Bracket Cards | Commander Clash Podcast 169

[@Robert-vk7je]

Whenever I see Farewell, I think about Austere Command as "an elegant weapon of a more civilized age."

[@ms.sysbit5511]

The issue is Austere just isn’t great. I think Farewell is fine but could support a less juiced one. Destroy at 6 mana isn’t impressive and all too often it’s a bad Wrath of God because it’s choose 2 and they separated creatures into 2. I used to run it a bunch but nearly never since Farewell’s release. Exile is the new destroy in commander.

[@noobtuber10]

Or merciless eviction

[@Kryptnyt]

I run both in some decks. The flexibility on both is great. People hyperfocus on artifact and enchantment themes a lot too. I think it's harder to run something like Planar Cleansing or Hour of Revelation. The greatest strength in Farewell is often about what you choose to leave behind on the board.

[@tcurrid8059]

Merciless eviction on steroids, though being targeted by merciless eviction feels worse. If you ME the artifact player but leave the stompy guy and enchantment person alone that sucks, farewell says good bye to all of those players at once and you can choose to leave your strategy of recursion alone, or any combination of the above really, it only sucks when your strategy aligns with other players so you end up hating just 1-2 people out.

[@peewee0224]

@@ms.sysbit5511exile is not the new destroy stop with the boring narratives also creatures being separated into two is actively an upside because you can put it in decks that are able to use it as a one sided board wipe.

[@ragefultheunbreakabl]

Crim sounds so crystal clear and buttery. Shoutouts to CGBs setup

[@brady3126]

He also had some awesome takes this episode

[@chrismarlow9585]

Really? Sounds like he's speaking inside a helmet. As soon as he raises his voice it sounds like the microphone is being overloaded and the rest of the time there's a low gravely tone like he's trying to sound manly and cool. I always thought CGB's voice sounded unnatural and now I hear Crim sounds almost identical through his setup. It's really warping the sound doing some normalisation or something.

[@Ghuulish]

CGB and Crim being together in person right now just tells me that the plans for the CGB, Crim, Voxy, and Rarran game is coming up a lot sooner than I expected

[@babatazyah]

Rarran was saying on stream that it was scheduled for the first week in October, the timeline lines up. So, not really sooner than expected, but, right around the corner at least. And I'm stoked for it.

[@thatepicwizardguy]

@@babatazyah ditto, should be really great.

[@1ryb360]

Exactly my thoughts lol, looking forward to the game so much

[@Bentothethird]

They all posted pictures together on socials so I think it's already filmed lol

[@david21216]

Update recently is that it should only be another week or so

[@Small_Panda]

I'm surprised Crim is still in school, but it's great that Richard is taking part and joined the PTA.

[@RyanEglitis]

"What bracket is your deck?" "I don't know what that is. But my deck is a 7."

[@peewee0224]

Literally lol 😂

[@PalPlays]

I only have two decks I believe to be at a 7 or above. Most of them are 4-6.

[@DieJG]

@@PalPlays You have many precons?

[@PalPlays]

@@DieJG As someone who has concocted multiple gimmick decks weaker than precons, I personally rank them as a 3. 1 = 100% restriction (Ladies Facing Left, Artist Tribal, 6CMC) 2 = Optimized Jank Theme (Rat Colony.dek) 3 = Precons or Newbie EDH 4 = Comfortable mono color (Gonti, Chandra Tribal, inconsistently good) 5 = Comfortable multicolor (Vadrok, Tahngarth, inconsistently good) 6-7 = Tuned archetypes (Chain Veil Estrid, Niv-Mizzet Parun, consistently powerful and interactive) 8 = High-tier cEDH meta calls (Rakdos+ stax, Ruric Thar) 9 = Top tier (Urza, Brago, Godo Helm, Chulane, Rashmi) 10 S tier (Food Chain, Thrasios/Tymna, Najeela, Gitrog, Zur)

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@PalPlays are you saying cedh starts at 8 or am i misunderstanding?

[@darthsnarf]

richard at the PTA telling all those poor parents about Secret Rendevous

[@Lazydino59]

Richard didn’t need to be on this episode, his response to every card would be “bracket 1, it dies to farewell” or “it’s completely overpowered bracket 800” and no in between

[@ettorevolterrani2989]

That bracket 800 would be any spell that puts extra nonbasic lands into play.

[@enmanuelrondon9700]

Bracket 1, it's too good

[@addictedtomints9433]

I am convinced all the people who want farewell in bracket 4 is because of these guys. Farewell isn't seen in cedh folks.

[@asmo8725]

Farewell is anoying af to play against. It’s basically reset game make it take way longer to finish or kingmaker the guy with teferis pro lose next turn

[@singularleaf3895]

Farewell is a 3 for the same reason armegeddon is a 4 ​@@addictedtomints9433

[@johnpelphrey]

I am absolutely sure everyone will agree with the brackets and no one will be upset!

[@siltygaming5067]

Yea people will be upset, but there is way less room to be upset than with actual bannings. None of the bracketed cards will be banned and you can still run them just have to disclose it.

[@michaelcollins4534]

Surely, the commander community is mature enough to handle this change, right?

[@brettjohnson4321]

​@@siltygaming5067 it only works if all players have their decks ranked. Bans are needed and stonks MTG people need to stop thinking the format will just become open. Having to submit a decklists just to see who you can play with/ what you can play and when isn't going to be used by the vast majority of players. All I see are financial bros crying about "value" and clearly they just started foaming at the mouth when WoTC took over the format. Bans = line go down WoTC running format makes all lines go up. All banned cards have spiked BC financial bros think they can make the money and it's not actually about playing the game.

[@Thoughtmage100]

And everyone's deck will be a 3.

[@nathand6467]

The thing with this is,... that fine, or even good. All nerds everywhere, love to debate nonsense and be technically correct. So people getting hyped up if a card should be a 3 or a 4, is good, yeah, its enviable, but thats good.

[@bobatehfettz6255]

Really liked Phil's insights on this episode. He had some solid points about how WotC is likely to view some of these different cards.

[@seanedgar164]

The more the ep went on the more I agreed. Farewell and teferi's pro especially

[@Chris_seh]

CGB just peeking in from the side of Crim's screen was sooo funny

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

I must’ve missed that, when did that happen?

[@kavfulmer]

@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai 28:43

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

Gracias amigo

[@kavfulmer]

@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai de nada

[@L1GHTGAMING]

Tutors = Consistency In a singleton format guaranteeing what you're getting, that's VERY powerful

[@addictedtomints9433]

Yes, however a lack of combos would fix how strong they are really.

[@OliverQuadros]

@@addictedtomints9433what are you playing where being consistent is not very powerful? Efficient tutors are just powerful. Doesn’t really matter the deck since it can usually be the best card in your deck.

[@jakelink1482]

​@addictedtomints9433 It's the strongest card in your deck in every situation, barring specific Tutor hate pieces? Every single card in your deck would have to be bad for this to be bad and if every single card in your jank deck is janky, why are you running tutors? I'm pretty sure you're the exact reason the bracket system is being created.

[@TheSmartCinema]

@@addictedtomints9433 You don't need to combo, you just need to get the specific card you need in a given scenario. I'm not casting Recruiter of the Guard to combo off, I'm casting it to get my Loran for removal, my Esper Sentinel for draw, my Jirina for graveyard hate, etc... A tutor's strength is almost solely based on the versatility it brings

[@jasonb6860]

Low mana tutors also massively increase the odds of turn 1-3 combo wins

[@Spotifist]

It’s a relief that Phil is here with some level-headed takes 🙏

[@ajbateup5101]

Fr he's one of the only people on here who know wtf he's talking about. The entire argument about barbflare gremlin just cements crim as a bad player

[@Blackstar-rf9yp]

Most casual decks lose harder to Farewell than Armageddon tbh

[@gbasso666]

Yes. Armageddon is simply a BAD EDH card. It's just bad. It doesnt do anything that helps you win the game or save you from losing. Any situation where Armageddon would be good, there is probably a safer and stronger alternative.

[@imaginarymatter]

@@gbasso666 It's easy to tilt Armageddon into your favor while essentially knocking other players out of the game. For example, an aggro deck can develop first then beat down the table while everyone struggles to catch back up.

[@Alkhemia8]

@@gbasso666 it more that Armageddon just makes the games last forever if the person casting it is not winning on the spot last thing I want to do is spend an extra 3 hours because some ahole blew up all the lands and did nothing after I would prob just pick up my cards and find a better person to play with

[@EmbeJuicemazzopazzo]

​@@Alkhemia8 I won with armageddon many times with my mono white aggro deck. Always cast it to just discourage any hope to catch up to my board, everyone concedes and not need to waste 2 turns attacking

[@pendotxl822]

@@EmbeJuicemazzopazzo this, it seems people dont factor in that the decks that want to play armageddon or similar mld cards for reasons other than to annoy the table will have ways to win the game with the boardstate on hand or not care about his lands etc. Making them strong in the kind of deck that would like to play them cause they can literally seal the deal on a game, while at the same time having little to no usecase for any other deck or strategy you would see on less optimized decks. So the only thing it realistically does is keep it out of your more casual games where you wouldnt want to see it anyways

[@thetrinketmage]

I honestly have no idea what makes a card bracket 2 and 3. I feel like those two will be the most arbitrary

[@seanedgar164]

Hi trinket, 100% it will be arbitrary. It'll be up to wizards to determine "levels of acceptability in casual"

[@friendo6257]

I think it will be used to distinguish the differences between a good version of a powerful effect and weaker versions of similar effects.

[@timothymimeslayer]

I see 3 as a highly tuned commander deck not playing the.most busted cards. 2 is better than precon but basically still jank.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@timothymimeslayer precons are so far from jank so by definition 2 cannot be "still jank" jank is 0 or unranked now that modern precons will apparently be the floor.

[@AgonalRhythm]

Whatever PTA Richard is participating in is about to encounter quite the politicking mastermind..

[@joshcastro8526]

I used to be a certified Richard hater, but I've seen the light. Now I'm sad he's gone for an episode. Cartographer's hawk should be a 4

[@danielsniff6405]

Don't forget about secret rendezvous

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

“I’ve seen the light!” I think just about every cult member in history has said the same thing! 😂 But I would’ve actually loved to hear him argue in favor of Spirited Companion being a 4.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Richard's on the PTA? Man that kid is growing up fast.

[@donb7519]

I think it may be an older kid of his. Or it's a pta for like a preschool. Since the last kid was only born like 2 years ago since i happened to rewatch the episode where phil filled in for him when the kid was born

[@TheJuicyTangerine]

CGB's setup matches Crim's aesthetic rather perfectly...

[@siltygaming5067]

29:35 Blast Act, Deluge, and Farewell are all precon wraths. Farewell was in 2 precons this year, deluge in at least 1 and blast act in most red ones 😂

[@seanedgar164]

And farewell is still the least socially acceptable. It should be bracketed

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

Yeah, but judging bracket 1 purely as cards that have been in precons is silly in and of itself. I understand the logic because they want all precons to be able to be played against each other, but all precons were not designed equally, and were not designed with this bracket system in mind, either. And when Farewell is arguably the best sweeper ever printed by a _long, long shot_ (only competition being Cyc Rift) and is a legit design mistake, it should be in a different bracket. Final Judgment and Farewell are not the same card, at all, and implying they should be on the same level is objectively ridiculous.

[@laytonjr6601]

Dockside Extortionist is bracket 1 then?

[@CodenameFuyuki]

Ive been telling everyone that thinks of the brackets as a ban list the same thing. "It's like the pirate code from Pirates of the Caribbean: 'Their more, guildlines' "

[@sabersaurus7018]

The brackets actually work if they are banlist though, otherwise you just get "my deck is a 1 except tooth and nail trust me" and you die to tooth and nail because it's unconditionally busted.

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

@@sabersaurus7018That’s the rough part with the current bracket system though; if they don’t draw T&N and they’re being legit about everything else being a 1 (meaning no tutors), they’re gonna get destroyed against decks running a bunch of cards in T&N’s bracket (which is probably gonna be 3 or 4).

[@jakelink1482]

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai That's exactly what should happen. The natural response would be to remove T&N from your deck which is otherwise a 1. Which every other 1 will be extremely thankful for. Too many players think they're game designers. Like you have enough mastery of the game to decide T&N isn't that bad in a deck full of 1s... No brother, it's bad. People play 1s to avoid cards exactly like that. Stop playing tutors, ancient tomb, dockside etc in your "7". You do not understand card games well enough to make that call for your table.

[@tbclabamba8051]

Could you please paraphrase 'their more, guidlines' for me? I really cant make sense of it or translate it

[@adamkarolak3544]

​@@tbclabamba8051 It's from Pirates of Caribbean about the pirate honor code . They mean it is more like suggestions than absolute law that you need to follow.

[@jcstaff1007]

34:16 Crim “Crimmed” himself at the thought of Open the Way for 4X. That’s how good it is.

[@rquer7913]

The more I learn about the Tier brackets, the more I realize that we all as a community are more or less unconsciously thinking in that WotC will make the list according to money, and not to power level

[@Alkhemia8]

without a doubt

[@marimi46]

I don't think so, stasis and back to basis will most likely be 4 and they aren't worth very much

[@jakelink1482]

@rquer7913 They're a business, anyone who doesn't think that is an idiot. The question is whether they value the long-term reprint equity the format represents higher than the immediate cash grab the wizard's takeover allows. The last 30 years says wizard's is going to milk you like the 40 IQ cash cow you are. So I'm pretty sure you're going to be fine, Timmy.

[@Friendly_Rivals]

14 minutes in and the biggest variable being missed that Crim is hitting on is access. In every white precon is a Plowshares or a Path to Exile. Trouble in pairs being in a single precon is a bit different. Smothering tithe is quite different than both of these.

[@hahahafunniness]

thanks for admitting the price is a big component of these brackets. sickening

[@megauberduber]

Great point

[@elsporko321]

​@@hahahafunniness It's such a component, that one of the strongest cards in the game (Sol Ring) gets its own special exception/category. I would wager most busted cards around the same power level as Sol Ring would get the same exception if they were also ~$1.00 and as accessible as Sol Ring has been.

[@enso8379]

@@hahahafunniness Yeah well like it or not, the salt value of a card is due to price. If Cyc Rift was a $8 card people would not be nearly as upset by it. The card is more than fair, by 7-8 mana you should be looking at closing out the game.

[@brady3126]

Price should not be a factor. What happens to a bracket placement when a card drops in price? How often would cards have to be adjusted? Seasonally? Yearly?

[@EmmyDiesAlone]

Farewell was actually in a MKM percon as well!

[@nick-qb5wu]

And a MH3 precon

[@Gravekeeper5890]

Doctor Who, too.

[@hhinder5121]

The same precon trouble in pairs was in.

[@Aphrenka]

And in the same breath they said Blasphemous Act was a bracket 2 but it's been in 5+ commander precons.

[@DaveTheNoob]

This conversation is a great example of how the bracket system will only cause a division in an already divided player base. 4 reasonable people have 4 very different takes on the same card is the best case scenario and its still inconclusive.

[@leroyderange5080]

💯 truth, you speak facts.

[@theoneandonlyflexo]

This bracket system sounds a lot like the usage based banlist in smogon competitive pokemon battling.

[@scaredycat3146]

That would make this discussion much easier though. Everything with more than 200k decks is a 4, everything above 150k a 3, and all cards above 100k a 2. Everything below, that's a 1. Yes Rampant Growth is a 4 now, deal with it.

[@TravisBrandt-g1z]

They said during the magic show with gavin "Bracket 4's are cards that produce an experience we would not want to play against" and i think many cards that produce salt in large amounts can be a 4.

[@seanedgar164]

That's how I view the brackets. Levels of acceptability. Most of my decks have no concerning cards but my Yasharn has drannith and more, which distinguishes it from a landfall deck

[@jamespatterson5644]

thats what I think. 4 is going to be a mix of power and salt. stasis is not super strong, but its super salty. teir 4 will be a combination of the CEDH staples and the salt scale top scorers

[@Tclark6199]

Crims ability to look at and evaluate these cards objectively has him making more sense than ever 😂

[@OliverQuadros]

Them just evaluating a lot of cards on mostly the salt score was kinda annoying

[@Tclark6199]

@@OliverQuadros yup. Have to remove your emotions for a fair evaluation

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

@@Tclark6199Not entirely, there will almost certainly be cards that get bracket 4’d based on miserable play experiences and not power. But they’ll be the minority.

[@Tclark6199]

@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai fair, I suppose Armageddon would be a good example of that

[@JulioDRai]

I agree except for Rhystic and Trouble in Pairs which (in casual) are gonna draw you a lot more cards than The One Ring yet he rated the former at a 2 while the later as a 3.

[@misterpig7739]

For mana barbs, I’m not sure if the fact that burning earth exists which only deals damage for non basic lands would affect what mana barbs would be rated since it doesn’t matter what land you tap.

[@IainSomebody]

Two points: 1) Commander is a casual format. The brackets, in my mind, add official structure that erodes the casualness. Sure, rule 0 will still exist, Clash can have a personal ban list, the RC can be very concerned about wheels and Nekusar, my group can ban cards with moustaches! But looming over it all, will be the official stance on whether this should be the case or not. Good luck explaining to inexperienced players why tutors for Skeletal Swarming, or one half of a combo in your deck aren't 4-worthy. 2) You touched on it, but there's been very little clarity on commanders yet. How many of those 100 bracketed cards will they make up? If a 1/99 lone Vampiric Tutor turns a precon into a 4, surely the only card you have access to all game every game matters all the more? Can a Yuriko deck ever not be a 4? How long will they hold off bracketing a shiny new commander like Prosper for fear of hurting sales? Just my tuppence~

[@brady3126]

Oh you pulled a Vampiric Tutor from the single Visions pack you opened? Sorry you can’t play it with us. This table is for 3s only

[@IainSomebody]

@@brady3126 Much as we can say "buy singles" who doesn't enjoy crackin' the odd pack, with fond memories of pulling a chase card you'd never have felt comfortable buying? Oop, you upgraded your precon 3 brackets!

[@dariocampanella7992]

​@@brady3126 ok, but what you gonna tutor for it? Your combo? If you tutoring a grave titan that's fine. This is supposed to help group discussion, having strong card means a stronger deck: this is the most objective way to do that rather than making up a number. Keep a replacement around for your bracket 4 but most off that people probably will let you keep that

[@dullestpenguin4151]

I think brackets could be simpler: 1 is good at any level 2 is the average commander game, 3 is high powered table, and 4 is cards that are soft banned

[@brady3126]

@@dullestpenguin4151 Vampiric Tutor is soft banned?

[@shawnbroderick7544]

@@brady3126 Would be good since tutors are against the sprit of a singleton format.

[@brady3126]

@@shawnbroderick7544 Even Cultivate or Rampant Growth? Or Open the Way? Crop Rotation?

[@shawnbroderick7544]

@@brady3126 Color fixing, random land flippers or basic land only tutors are just ramp or chance. So open the way, cultivate or rampant growth I feel is fine. Crop rotation is a get your best land tutor and so I think technically is against the sprit of the format. Vampiric tutor is even further again the sprit since you can get any card.

[@brady3126]

@@shawnbroderick7544 Do you disagree with the “creative expression” section of the commander philosophy?

[@PalPlays]

It's always a great cast when Crim and Tomer are here to temper the discussion with their insight.

[@SushiDJ_YT]

For Swords to Plowshares in the “Tutor” pile/column, maybe they meant to put Path to Exile for the land tutoring?

[@seanedgar164]

Nah I think it was more about efficient cards. Vamp is very efficient but that is more concerning than an efficient removal piece

[@electric_dream_machine]

You guys are being very optimistic about what cards are gonna be put in brackets. I respect that.

[@lloydmull6297]

Seth’s logic - Farewelll shows not all sweepers are created equal. Open the way is just like rampant growth!

[@firby7341]

1:02:00 Cyclonic Rift in fact HAS been in a precon. the mono blue teferi planeswalker precon from 2014 featured cyclonic rift. nowadays it probably wouldnt be in one purely because of its pricetag.

[@williambrabham5028]

You guys covered the pie here visually… 😁 Seth, Black… Tomer, green… Phil, red… Crim, blue… And we all know Richard, white 💯 well done

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

Trouble in pairs just makes you play fair magic. Rhystic study says "you do anything, I draw" They are NOT the same

[@imaginarymatter]

I think of it as Grand Arbiter Augustin and just pay the (1).

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

They draw about the same amount of cards in the earlyish-mid game, but yeah, Rhystic outpaces it so hard late game.

[@Spaced92]

Fair magic is playing 1 card per turn and not attacking you ;o;

[@tomerabramovici32]

Is Phyrexian Arena not fair magic? Drawing a single extra card per turn is unfair?

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

@@Spaced92 I was being hyperbolic. But people don't normally attack at all in my experience, let alone with more than 1 creature. And playing 1 spell per turn isn't that bad if you're curving out.

[@Conklebot]

Crim "Everything i like and play as a staple, thats a two. Cultivate? Thats a four!"

[@derekseaton4412]

Ice Cave in Baral, Chief of Compliance. Even if someone else counters your spell, your effect still countered it so you still trigger Baral

[@BloodMoonGo]

Richard jokes aside, I expect about 50% of the players at my LGS to know and follow the bracket system. It'll be an interesting trial run once the brackets drop.

[@sithishellsing9432]

This is the perfect example of how people will not agree about any card being in a particular tier

[@DanielEvanClarke]

So ice cave is only above 1 if people play cards like seedborn muse, which is arguably itself a 3 or a 4?

[@Lord-Pepsi]

Wotc has been doing a good job communicating. It's been two weeks since brackets were intro'd. We're wasting our breath speculating on a system that wotcight not even use! Lol We're gonna be blindsided with a new system two days from Vegas lolz

[@TransformersBoss]

It’s so hard to make a power-ranking system for Commander. I think the lesser-of-all-evils might be to have rankings based on how quickly your deck is trying to win. Maybe not “win,” but, at least how fast your deck does its thing and gets into the winning-position. Decks that win the game (or Stax everybody out) on turn 1 or 2, are high-powered cEDH decks, and maybe make power-tiers descending from there

[@seanedgar164]

Honestly it's gonna be a casual friendly score more than power. Coz swords is good but not mean. Mld isn't lethally scary but is very rude

[@tylerhardin9228]

I think a good exercise would be to take a commander & make a bracket 1-4 version of the deck & discuss the differences & why

[@brady3126]

Love this idea

[@dyslixecturtle2755]

Crim going "not by how much you hate this card" Are we making sense here?

[@mattpk1609]

Man you Guys are cooking with Video/Podcast ideas! Saving this for Work tomorrow

[@Target008]

Wraths and targeted removal will all be tier 1. Unlimited tutors will be 4. Limited but good tutors will be 3. 4 mana and very nitch tutors will be 2. Really powerful stax like winter orb will be 4. Limited stax will be 3. Mana taxing stax will be 2. This isn't a teir list so their won't be a ramp spell in each slot guys.

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

They made Fabricate a 2, and that’s 3 mana get any artifact.

[@wilfriddanjou4704]

This is exactly the topic I was hoping you guys would tackle next!! Hyped.

[@brady3126]

I find it interesting how land destruction is so taboo and so cards like Cabal Coffers, Maze of Ith and Glacial Chasm are ranked so highly. They’re “hard to interact with” because it’s so taboo to do so

[@damonlouis6536]

exactly lands are easy to interact with besides armaggedon. just strip/waste/gq/demo field etc. etc. etc.. all colors have ways of dealing with lands too btw. "but it's easily played from the graveyard" well let me list a bunch of colorless grave hate cards. oh wait there's too many to list, and every color can do that as well. meanwhile "cyclonic rift is a 2"? it stops you from playing the game is easily looped from the grave, here's the real problem only blue can deal with it (besides corner cases in white basically).

[@brady3126]

@@damonlouis6536 Good luck looping strip mine in your pod 😂

[@OliverQuadros]

@@brady3126 they’re not hard to interact with and people should be running single target land destruction. I feel you are conflating single targeted land removal and mass land destruction. People are usually fine with the former and don’t enjoy the latter.

[@brady3126]

@@OliverQuadros How do you distinguish mass? More than one target? Would Ramunap Excavator and Strip Mine qualify? Numot the Devastator? Detritivore? Avalanche Riders? Icefall?

[@OliverQuadros]

@@brady3126 id say a sweeper is mass removal. If your plan is to loop land destruction effects, that’s pretty much the same thing as mass land destruction in my book. But if you’re just running Ramunap Excavator and Strip Mine to hit one land per turn, I wouldn’t count that as mass. Same with some of your examples. Obviously, if you’re really abusing those effects, yeah, it becomes mass land destruction. But you can also abuse a Swords to Plowshares by copying it a bunch and turning it into a pseudo-sweeper, though that takes a lot of effort. Same goes for your examples-most of them take a lot of setup, are vulnerable to removal, and tend to be slow. Sure, the one in exile can’t be easily interacted with, but it’s still super slow unless you start abusing it. In the end, whether targeted land removal counts as mass destruction depends on whether you’re actively trying to deny resources by blowing up multiple lands or if it’s more like using spot removal, like Swords to Plowshares or Curtain’s Call That’s just my take-happy to hear your thoughts if you disagree!

[@Sicktoid]

Love Phil's take on Farewell. Retcon everything, nothing mattered. You felt tension? You felt suspense? You felt invested? Silly you. Now we get to do it all again, but worse!

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

I agree its bad but what happened before still matters your lands stay and life totals aren't at 40 anymore (hopefully) and also your engine is gone forever. its worse than starting over, if we start over I can draw my engine again.

[@TheTomb16]

I think the problem with Farewell that could make it a 3 is that it's also pretty hard to interact with if you don't have a counterspell. All the "destruction" boardwipes can also be countered with "make board indestructible" cards like heroic intervention or dawn's truce. But for farewell, if it resolves the only solution is to phase out your board with something like teferi's protection. So if teferi's protection would be a 3, I think Farewell would also be a 3.

[@SimWOT]

Not only that but it ignore death trigger, empty graveyard and is modular. Farewell is OP.

[@moralessanchezoscarelias6412]

In this stage, imo it's more useful to think in more abstract terms, in categories of cards. If Swords is a 1, every single-target removal is a 1. If Armageddon is a 4, then every mass mana-denial card is a 4.

[@McArRuIzO]

Shout out to Phil for being the only person on the crew to pronounce "anticlimactic" correctly.

[@OstrichSoup]

In the Trouble in Pairs vs. One Ring argument, I think that the one ring should be ranked higher always, besides drawing a comparable amount of cards it's indestructible and it has a buffed up fog on ETB. You just Reclamation Sage the TiP and in the late game it can be a dead draw

[@matthewbixler2728]

So I’ve thought about this, and I feel a good chunk of this discussion is the need for a consistent philosophy on rating cards. So I’d like to propose the following: 1. 99% of all magic cards are a 1. 2. 2s are the most powerful versions of any rank 1 card. 3. These are the extreme outliers of rank 2 cards. 4. These are cards so above the power scale that WotC doesn’t actively print cards like this anymore. And then a propose a 5th power scale, which would be called something different. Essentially these would be cards that should not be in any power ranking, but are noted that if your play group wants to play them, that’s their prerogative. So for example, let’s use counterspells and land search ramp. Using this scale, things would go like this. All counterspells are 1s. The outliers are stuff like counterspell, arcane denial and swan song. Those would be 2s. A 3 are the outliers of those powerful counterspells, which would be like mana drain and fluster storm. And lastly 4s would be stuff like free counter magic, so fierce guardianship, force of will, force of negation, pact of negation. Same thing works for ramp. 99% of all ramp would be a 1, those that get basic lands. Those that get a single nonbasic, like three visits, farseek, nature lore, are 2s. Your 3s are single shot multiple nonbasics, so like open the way, hour of promise, and tempt with discovery are 3s. And then things that repeatability get nonbasics, so like primeval Titan (if he gets unbanned) would be a 4. With this philosophy laid out, you can do any basic type of card, from card draw to wraths to stax pieces. There will be some cards that don’t follow this, but those can be judged on a card by card basis.

[@Darkflamecrusader]

Since when did "No mass land destruction." Turn into "Nobody touches the lands."? My understanding was mass land destruction was frowned upon, but spot land removal was fine.

[@TheDylls]

I think that salt level can be an important metric because cards make you salty when they drastically alter your ability to interact with an opponent. Sounds powerful to me

[@thechestrockfield]

Just like the bans, money will definitely play into it... If it's cheap, it'll likely rank lower than it otherwise would.

[@dariocampanella7992]

I agree, the way I see it: how much resources you put into upgrading a deck? If you don't have a budget limit you playing for power. If you have a budget you are happy to have a less optimized deck

[@3PFTF]

Finally turn 1'd a Serra Ascendant, and everyone scooped by turn 3. It was wonderful.

[@thewell2662]

Serra Ascendant can basically do the same as slasher by Turn 4 with no mana ramp. Except it will also gain 18 life for the player. It is way more powerful than the slasher.

[@ReyaadawnMTG]

The big problem with Barbflare Goblin is that it doesn't work with Ojer Axonil...that's what really stunts it.

[@TokenAsian-MTG]

They didn't even look at the salt score for the Ascendent lol...sometimes these guys crack me up.

[@patbates13]

You have to remember that it is a singleton format. Adding any one card to a pre-con isn't going to turn it into a 4 deck. There has to be a critical mass of bracket 4 cards to make the deck problematic. You could add a jewelled lotus and a mana crypt to any pre-con and it would probably not win too much more against other pre-cons. What % of games will you see one specific card?

[@wilfriddanjou4704]

Would love if you guys did some commander clash games where you play test these various brackets you’ve defined!

[@justinwelsh9367]

So long old vibes and feels system, this new vibes and feels system is my new best friend.

[@garkr]

Hey, I am not the only person that thinks about Ice Cave on a daily basis! @39:00

[@BabyBull72]

I've never seen Ice Cave, but Inga and Esika as the commander or any other commander that lets you play colors outside your identity combined with a seedborn muse effect would be great for Crim on a future clash!

[@Piratejackyar]

I think the point of the examples for bracket one is to tell us that efficient removal and big threats are fine and won't take you up a bracket.

[@Nathanael_Forlorn]

Bracket 1 is for kitchen table magic. Imagine, all your cards were gifted to you by a friend who was happy to get rid of his draft chaff. There might be rares, but it's the bad ones, or older with a lower power creep. By that measure, everything talked about is above 1. 1 is for random garbage 2 for most precons 3 for optimised, focused lists 4 for the highest signpost cards.

[@NaviTheMD]

Lets not forget Gavin was the guy behind yuriko

[@imaginarymatter]

Gavin is the guy behind thousands of cards.

[@NaviTheMD]

@@imaginarymatter yeah dude is super cool

[@damonlouis6536]

and jeweled lotus, arcane signet, dockside etc.. but i'm sure he's learned from consistently making so many mistakes

[@scaredycat3146]

There is probably not a single designer at WotC who isn't behind a dozen cards that needed to be banned somewhere or were deemed design mistakes in hindsight.

[@dannydoomno1]

I have a bit of a take on what is going on in this video, at many points I have been repeating the same thing, "It's not about the strength of a card, it's about the speed, efficiency and player experience" a lot of the card ratings they are giving they are talking about oh this card can be really good in this deck, sometimes you can get this value from the card. But what they should be talking about is how fast this card allows you to win the game on its own, how efficient it is mana wise and if it is played, how it affects other players and their experience. Trouble in pairs is a great example, they are all putting it at a 3 because it can draw you lots of cards, but really, while the card is strong, its slow, it's not the most efficient and the experience for opponents is not massively oppressive, just a minor annoyance. Trouble in pairs I would personally put at a low 2, it's a card that could go in almost any deck, it is strong but not in a way that restricts or negates the game experience. The only reason I wouldn't put it at a 1 is because that card draw is just high enough that it would smother a table of T1 deck players. As an overall, focusing on -Speed -Efficiency and -Player experience is what will lead to a better defined bracket system rather than worrying about cards being strong in some archetypes. My own ratings: 6:35 Trouble in Pairs 2 - Overwhelming card draw can be too much for a 1. 15:27 Manabarbs 2 - Player experience is poor but not overwhelmingly so. 20:33 Craterhoof Behemoth 1 - completely on its own, ignoring that it can be tutored/cheated in, on its own, its fine, its expensive and will take a while to get down and players dont hate seeing it. 24:33 Farewell 2 - Mainly just player experience, feeling like the game is reset and wasted time. 31:32 Open the Way 1 - idk, it ramp bro 37:18 Price of Progress 1 - no issues here 39:02 Ice Cave 2 - Player experience might be poor, not entirely sure, could be a 1 45:45 The One Ring 3 - fast to come down, impactful at almost any point in any game, insane card draw, but it takes a few turns to actually win the game so not a 4. 49:37 Cabal Coffers 3 - Slightly slow and does have restrictions/downside but can make insane amounts of mana that lower tiers cannot fight against. 54:21 Serra Ascendant 2 - strength isnt an issue really, but it might feel bad seeing an opponent play this, would be happy seeing this at T1 as well.

[@bdienes20]

This conversation should be in terms of Salt-Scale only. Super powerful things produce lots of salt, so this is a good tactic for resolving this issue.

[@killersamson7881]

Serra ascendant is in the angels are better with wings secret lair precon, so there's that.

[@BLByline]

I think what wotc showed is that there are tiers within card types. The best tutor is a 4, more specific, targeted tutors are 1s or 2s. So specifically with Farewell and Open the Way. Ramping is fine, open the way is slightly restrictive (off the top) but way more efficient than most ramp. That’s a 3. Farewell is an inefficient sweeper from its mana cost, but it’s highly salty, invalidated enchantment, artifact and graveyard decks and messes with aristocrats by exiling and not having death triggers. Being modular gives it more value too. So I’d say farewell is at least a 2, possibly also a 3 because it’s less efficient but WAY more powerful than your average sweeper.

[@IonFONE]

I love how Richard still got the most salty comments today and he's not even in the podcast.

[@filippomilan2656]

About craterhoof, I personally really dislike it, because it is smultaniously the best overrun that exists while also being the most boringly generic. There is literally zero deckbuilding requirement to it and that is so sad and annoying.

[@ms.sysbit5511]

My bigger issue is green’s access to it. Green has a dozen ways to grab it whereas it has precious nothing to get a sorcery Overrun. That access is the biggest issue imo.

[@filippomilan2656]

@@ms.sysbit5511 oh yeah, I really dislike tutors in general, so theres that aswell, what's the point of playing singleton if I'm gonna look to do exactly the same thing every game. But thats just how I approach the game

[@ms.sysbit5511]

@@filippomilan2656 I like a couple but generally I keep them in the 3 or so range. If brackets mean I have to cut or replace them, so be it.

[@seanedgar164]

It's hard to interact with for most casual decks and scales way too scarily. I'd love 3. I see 3 as real punchy and pubstompy, no real feels bads

[@dariocampanella7992]

Mana geyser + insurrection. There are lot of ways to steal a game.

[@huddlestonb16]

22:25 Crim is totally right: a tutor should be the higher rated card because it can always get the win con, and can get more than one win con. Hoof isn't as powerful as GSZ or Finale of Devastation for that reason

[@edhdeckbuilding]

manabarbs is a perfect example of the issue with the brackets. some people would put it as a 1 and others would put it as a 4.

[@stupidstutesman2444]

The same could be said for just about any stax piece, which highlights a major flaw in the system, its entirely subjective

[@VincentWolfeye]

Crim is continuing to have the most levelheaded takes. *a surprise to be sure, but a welcome one*

[@JC-xb9sp]

Cyclonic rift was in the first batch of walker precons, the teferi one

[@Seergun]

I know you've talked about thespian stage/vesuva before and how much you think it effects your meta, but I've seen either literally once in the last 6 months, and that was only because they were playing an upgraded Omo precon. They just don't get thrown in random decks. Stage's top decks are: lands, lands, lands, colorless, colorless, doctor who (because it was in one), colorless, colorless, colorless, colorless, snow(so lands), lands, lands, colorless, snow, lands, colorless, colorless. Vesuva is in a _slightly_ more varied amount of decks, just much less numbers.

[@cassie7611]

I would honestly love to categorize every mtg card as a job.. I think it would be so fun

[@Shimatzu95]

The thing with coffers is: if the cheap/good tutors for it are gone (higher brackets) then its not that great outside of mono black. With that in mind i'd say its a 2.

[@paulszki]

I think for cabal coffers, if you want to restrict the power of it, there's two ways. One of them is actually likely going to happen: No tutors. If you can't reliable tutor for it in monoblack, that has a real deckbuilding cost. You can't rely anymore to always have it so now how powerful will, say Torment of Hailfire even be, if you're casting it at like x=6 if you're lucky? That leaves golgari colors with green non-basic ramp. If that is a worry, I think just making urborg a higher bracket and leaving coffers alone will let casuals play their "all swamps and one coffers" deck and even some possibly expedition map, if it stays bracket 1. You never see any deck playing urborg and it NOT having ultra greedy non-basics like glaciers, labirynth and of course, coffers. If too reliable big mana was an issue (probably not) Urborg and tutors would be the real culprit.

[@PalPlays]

The crew (sans Tomer) is crazy about Open the Way. You don't hear them talking up Mirrari's Wake, which ramps more for cheaper, at the price of being targetable. It's just a ramp spell guys. It's a fundamental mechanic in Commander. Run two-mana rocks in other colors to keep up (catch up ramp and rocks work well together).

[@nickburrellaka]

Bad take

[@PalPlays]

@@nickburrellaka How so?

[@Minervastouch]

Ice cave generally only counters low cost cards which tends to be removal and interaciton.

[@thek838]

I love how CGB set up suits Crim way more than CGB.

[@adamcajkler2477]

in all of these bracket prediction videos I've not seen anyone mention extra turn spells, which (as was implied at the end of the video,) I think is how the brackets will work; a card to represent a set/type of cards. So I'm curious where you think extra turn spells will go but also cards such as 'Thousand year storm'/Scuteswarm (i've grouped these together as they create mass instances of copies- which wizards seems to be fine with considering how much copy spells and copy permanent spell cards they've printed recently)

[@punkypinko2965]

Regarding some kind of bracket system, currently, the only "brackets" that work are EDH vs cEDH. The whole power level system does not work. And I think the proposed new bracket system will fail for the same reason: it's too complicated. So here are the two options that I think might work. The first option is we have brackets based on the intention and gameplay, like EDH vs cEDH. And we already do this now. I hear people say, "I'm going to play my low power deck" or "I'm going to play my high power deck". The particular cards in the deck don't really matter; it's what the deck is designed to do that matters, like EDH vs cEDH. The second option, if we really want to focus more on particular cards, would be to just bracket the commanders, not every single card in the deck. So maybe some janky commander that isn't powerful would be bracket 1 and the most powerful commanders would be bracket 4. And then you could put any cards in the 99 that you wanted. People already do this as well by saying "I'm going to play Lathril" etc and then other people might try to find a similarly powerful commander. They wouldn't even have to bracket every single commander; all commanders not bracketed would by default be bracket 0.

[@EDtheIII]

I am 100% with Crim this episode.

[@pauljaton5128]

Crim through CGB’s vocal chain is CRISP

[@BsRascaL]

Really great podcast, thx gents

[@hanschristopherson8056]

The reason green ramp is busted in your meta is because there are actual artifact sweepers and lots of them. I rarely see artifact sweepers and if I do it’s late in the gam so it doesn’t hurt that much to play rocks

[@RyanEglitis]

I think you mean that the default state is "green ramp is busted," but you don't notice it as much because nobody is punishing interactable artifact ramp.

[@Kydrou]

​@@RyanEglitisthing is, land ramp is also taking land cards out of the deck, effectively diminishing the chance to get more land drops on each turn, while improving card draw. At the same time, green players without an effective card advantage engine, will stagnate after their burst in speed, balancing out. Sure, green ramp is highly effective, and as a green player myself i know from personal experience. But i have also witnessed players without the insight of either increasing the land count or card draw engine be low in pressure on board, while not knowing why; or plain refusing to realize the obvious.

[@mees8711]

I can't believe there is no discussion around the Craterhoof grade they gave.

[@bodaciouschad]

5:30 the reason T1's "tutor slot" is sword to plowshares is to indicate that all tutors are t2 or higher, even the niche "bad" ones. Shuffling 100 card decks is a pain. I for one would prefer a 100% tutorless format for shorter turns alone.

[@paperwatt]

I like the idea of 1 being the usual precon fare. 2 is the 1 or 2 bombs that each precon comes with. 3 is stuff they'll never put in a precon (or give it like 5 years of power creep lol), and 4 is the saltiest stuff along with CEDH staples.

[@SixTwoFive625]

Honestly, there is no way Wizards can effectively use this tier system to please everybody. We can't even get all 4 of you to agree on most of these cards. So you already know that a whole team would have lots of different takes on powerful cards, that may be different from the player's take on it. 100% guaranteed that some cards will be ranked too high, and some will be ranked too low. Your average casual commander player probably doesn't like to play cedh level decks, but when they have 1 or 2 tier 4 cards (that may not deserve it), their deck is a tier 4 deck. And players will be pissed for sure.

[@JKMessy]

I think the card(s) of the paper seasons have been Open the Way and Caretaker's Talent. Would love to see a "Open the Way and Won" chart at the end of S17