Misguided Empathy Is Destroying Families, Culture, and Church

[@jaredshipp9207]

"It is better to speak truth that hurts and then heals, than falsehood that comforts and then kills."

[@smuggythornton]

Very well said,

[@ljimz7130]

Absolutely!!!

[@germanslice]

@@ljimz7130 Jesus said the following in Matthew Chapter 19: 8-12 For there are some eunuchs who were so born from their mothers wombs. And there are some eunuchs which were made eunuchs of men. And there be eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. (castrated their sexual love life and remain single & celibate) in order to serve God and have a place with him in the celestial Kingdom. 'He that is able to receive it, let him receive it In other words the Lord knew this would not be easy in order to have a place in the celestial kingdom for those who have homosexual feelings or same-sex love interests... A Eunuch is not just someone who is castrated sexually but also could "be a reference to someone who is deeply troubled with persistent homosexual feelings.Jesus knew about the existence of same sex attraction which leads to either men not marrying or to some men committing adultery and divorcing their wives. Of course not every divorce is over same sex issues but some are. Now when you turn to Isaiah 56: 3-5 you find this also said about the Eunuchs in Zion. They have to live the Church Standards. """Choose the things that please me That's the condition to qualify for the blessings of the temple. Keep the Sabbaths, and live the Law of Chastity. In other words, .. You exchange worldly interests for the Lord's interests. But those who dump their covenants and bury them in the ground and just walk away with a smug grin and think they are all forgotten about are not wise.

[@MrRickb75645]

Wonderfully said. I felt saying something comforting but not true , felt wrong. Now I know why. And I am no longer confused on it. Thanks.

[@kukey25]

Who is this quote from?

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

Resident Atheist here... This is bigger than just a church threat. This goes to freedom of conscience. Good show.

[@sarahaas183]

Thanks for this input.

[@SharkB503]

I found the part about narrative to be so true. We have a member in our ward that came out as trans and neglected his wife and 7 children to live this lifestyle. The ward was not sure how to handle it, but everyone that i know of did their best to love him, and allow a place for him. My husband became his ministering visitor for a few years, and although he stopped coming to church he requested a lot of help with renovating his house. These requests were almost always accomadated. One night, after my husband and the boshop had helped him move his washing machine to the second floor, he complained to my husband about how awful the bishop was abd that no one in the ward accepted him. Recently he was on a podcast talking about his experience as a transgender member of the church. I'm sure a lot of people that trusted his account, but i wish people would take the account of a man, struggling with memtal illness, with a grain of salt.

[@GAILandROD]

Thanks for sharing that

[@karylmorgan7320]

I don't have emphathy for a man who deserted his wife and children. Fix your own house. So tired of this attitude that ward members are entitled to movers, meals, construction workers, car repairs, etc. All for free. As a latter-day Saint I am not entitled to any of that. People have bigger responsibilities to fill in their family lives.

[@sarahbean6170]

Wow! This is crazy! We see one side of a person and they go out and tell their story and it’s quite fsr from the real story! I knew a gal that was awful to us other ladies in our ward. She and her husband split up, she was making peoples lives miserable in the ward and even trying to seduce missionaries. She ended up speaking at a women’s thing (I won’t say) lying about her story and she got so much sympathy. We knew the other side of her. She absolutely lied about her life to gain. I could tell you much more but I won’t in case someone may know her here. You really have to be careful who you listen to. Also know a lady who is an emotional abusive woman to her children and husband. I know this don’t ask me how. It’s family. She portrays herself as such an angel on social media. Ouch! It’s taught me a lot about who to listen to. Take it all with a grain of salt.

[@jameseverett4976]

​@@sarahbean6170 There's always another side to the story. They're "sins" for a reason, and it goes much deeper than anyone would believe. Every sin has it's "collateral" fruit, or damage. I wish I had the words to elaborate. I watched "Mormon Stories" for several years, just out of curiosity, and started noticing a similar pattern in every story, and realized that the unrepentant have a way of reorganizing their "story" [couldn't find a better word, because that's exactly what it is] in hindsight, even the order of events, to accomodate their own evolving justifications, AFTER leaving the church, that make it seem air tight and more than justified, when presenting to an audience. There are even moments of compulsive confession, and obvious brokenness, which seem at odds with the claim that they're "so much happier" now that they've left the church. Taking everything together, each "story" is a presentation of 2 opposing threads: 1 of triumph over a false & deceptive church, with the releif of finally finding truth and freedom, and a victim narrative of continual oppression, despite leaving, that will haunt and torment them the rest of their lives. I've even thought about making a youtube channel just to diagram and point out my observations, and use key video clips, side by side, to illustrate, but I can guess that the church would probably not approve of such a thing, because of the "attack" on "form-mons" it would be taken as.

[@vendingdudes]

​. On the contrary, that would be an extremely honorable channel to start

[@elipsis6700]

I was taught, in church and in school, is that "Sympathy" is a feeling of compassion for someone else. But "Empathy" is being able to relate to what another person is going thru BECAUSE you have experienced the same thing yourself, therefore you have a high level of understanding. (ie, you have lost a child, and they have lost a child.) You KNOW how it feels because you have experienced that same thing, so you can truly relate to that person on a higher level of compassion than just sympathy- (feeling bad for their situation.) When did this very clear distinction get lost?

[@alindalt2897]

Exactly!!

[@carenjennings7744]

Well said!

[@Chris27883]

When people stopped reading the dictionary.

[@Nassaldromus]

I was the priesthood leader of a young woman who was worried because she felt she didn't like boys. She was worried she might have a problem with her preferences, but she was not sttracted to girls either. In an attitude of orayer, I told her not to worry, to keep following the commandments and that when the right person showed up at the right time, she'd had the right feelings. It didnt take long, maybe a year or two and she met a young man with whom she fell in love and they have several children. I think the rush our culture has to identify someone's sexuality does a lot of harm, because they force individuals who are not yet mature enough to choose an identity first, and be defined by it second.

[@GAILandROD]

stinkin' hormones!

[@kirklandmeadows]

Yes but homosexual is real and to resist your sexuality for a lifetime can creates depression and other sad acts

[@Laurentdu59]

But if you are told that same sex acts are wrong, immoral, impure in the sight of a God who created other mammals who reproduce in a similar manner, you have a moral compass, whether you choose to follow it or not. If all you hear is the narrative of "eat, drink, and be merry" (or gay) for tomorrow we die, you are more likely to sin. Repentance is possible. He inviteth all to partake of salvation and exaltation.

[@anonymouslife3777]

It's not real, just endocrine disruption.

[@sarahaas183]

So true. My teenage and young adult years were already kind of sexually confusing! I eventually was not confused! I dated lots of guys, and am happily married with kids. I’m just glad no one pressured me to identify with any label

[@confusedwhynot]

I think we conflate Charity the pure love of Christ with Empathy defined by society. You can't fix other people's problems, but we can seek to help people through guidance from God.

[@MustangWriter]

A homeless man is standing on the street corner. A mormie passes by and having empathy hands the homeless man a few bucks out of his pocket and then goes his way. A 2nd mormie walks by and sees the homeless man and feeling empathetic decides NOT to give him money ...he might buy coffee! And instead buys him a Happy Meal, and goes on his way. A third mormie sees the homeless man and he doesn't have any cash on him but being kind and empathetic hands the homeless man his business card and says... "I don't have any cash on me...but I own a manufacturing company and heres my card and if you come by I will give you a good paying job. Out of those three mormies....which one showed 'charity' the pure love of Christ? The first one? The second? The third right? You might be impressed to know while all were kind...NONE SHOWED CHARITY. What if the homeless man's needs were medical? What was a few bucks going to do? What if he needed a room for the night? A safe place to rest his head. What was a Happy Meal going to do for him? What if the homeless man's needs were immediate? What was the promise of a well paying job and a paycheck 2 weeks away going to do to help him? CHARITY the pure love of Christ can only come by revelation.

[@LadyDisdain3]

Agreed. Which is likely the reason why the scriptures define what charity is. Including that it rejoices not in iniquity but rejoices in truth.

[@lindamartinez7006]

@@LadyDisdain3that still doesn’t mean you tell truth to make a relationship bad and not care . You teach in Jesus way . The pure love of Christ . 14 is a hard age for a lot of boys .

[@LadyDisdain3]

@@lindamartinez7006 there’s nothing compassionate or charitable about telling someone that their chains aren’t chains but are beautiful bracelets to keep their feelings safe. There are definitely compassionate ways to be truthful and call sin, sin which are also found in the description of charity. I wasn’t suggesting that we be brats about what is righteous merely pointing out that part of loving someone is distinguishing right from wrong and telling the truth. This should be done with love and thoughtfulness.

[@Chris27883]

​@@lindamartinez7006I couldn't imagine being in the gym and having a personal trainer get down there with you and be like "Look, big guy. I know this is hard. I know this is heavy. This must be so difficult for you. You're such a brave boy." We are also commanded to admonish, reprove, even at times with sharpness, preach, and strengthen. You don't make someone strong by comforting them alone. "You have got to learn how to BECOME Gods yourselves

[@tomasina10]

My daughter is a child psychologist working with schools as a consultant and she says the trans situation is 100 percent a contagion and advices against ANY action but support and let them grow up . She actually has encountered kids wanting to be animals with good LDS parents going along with it thinking it was “fun “ .

[@deborahcasper6120]

I am so grateful for this conversation. My strength in the field I retired out of "Children and Family services," was my ability to emphasize, but agree to disagree. This conversation is so intelligent. This conversation is that light at the other end of a very dark tunnel. I have felt so alone somewhat knowing what you are sharing here. One of my experiences in social work was when I was asked to go work with parents of a 3 yr old boy child and help "normalize" what the therapist was telling them to do to support their child in his acceptance of his journey to transgender. I told the therapist I would not do that. I would help the parents deal with their horrifying feelings of what was being suggested and helping them take each situation their child was experiencing and working with the anxiety some of his behaviors were causing him and them. My point was to support them in understanding they needed a different therapist. The therapist was a lesbian with her own issues transferred to this child. It was a very toxic situation. My superiors chose not to have me work with this family. Years have passed and that child was misguided as were the parents and the outcome was tragic. Your voices need to be heard. Thank you for the podcast. You are right on! I can stand beside you and be grateful for this conversation.

[@ZachGorham44]

I love the point you guys made that it is pathological to accept, enable and facilitate self destructive behaviour in others by being solely empathetic to them when we should be holding them accountable. If I think about it going the other direction I would only consider someone a true friend if they were willing to tell me the truth even if it was uncomfortable for me to hear about being accountable for my own actions. You have to really love someone to go through the stress of correcting them, whereas being nice and not ruffling anyone’s feathers is easy. Christ came to save us from our sins and not in our sins.

[@shannonwarner7673]

And in our loving others while maintaining doctrine, we may expect that there will be anger and false accusations thrown at us from the other party. Keeping knowledge and the empathy firmly fixed can help us maintain our beliefs while being falsely verbally or emotionally assaulted. Sadly, in some cases, we have to step back (however that looks for your situation) in order to maintain healthy boundaries. I never say cut someone off completely. We never know how hearts may change. We still can be accessible but from afar. That’s something I’m trying to figure out myself right now. How to be loving from a distance. This was an awesome podcast. It came to me at exactly the right time. Thank you.

[@napaljarrinappaljarri5175]

@@shannonwarner7673 - Don't have to permanently cut off, but cutting off completely with a clause that when they want to tell the truth and change their tune is fine. Boundaries are set to keep faith and lives and relationships firm and safe.

[@RecoveringUGrad]

Not sure how to spell Becky’s last name, but the quote that starts at @8:18 is perfect. Becky Borden “Pray for your child to have the experiences they need to return to you, Heavenly Father. Help my child have those experiences, help me be part of those experiences that will promote that. That may mean pain, it may not. We leave that plus to God. He knows what we need better than any of us.”

[@Aristotle33]

A necessary conversion for anyone who wants to be a disciple of Jesus Christ in our current social political environment. Empathy without accountability is like love without law, tolerance without truth, and agency without responsibility.

[@CwicShow]

Very well stated

[@celindahearld1328]

Amen !

[@jenme7926]

I'm only 23 minutes into this discussion and I feel it's very valuable! I love the part about someone's narrative. Their experience, but not necessarily fact. Thank you all!

[@JacenCB]

I was in Jeff Bennion's ward for quite a while and simply couldn't say enough good things about Jeff. - This is true stuff Greg - THANKS for creating this!

[@brandinshaeffer8970]

Toxic compassion is a real thing

[@jeff3olsen]

100% The adversary has weaponized empathy along with many other Christian virtues.

[@shawnbarnes3420]

The fact that the brethren are falling for the adversary's ploy says a lot about the brethrens' pretense of holding special "keys". They clearly do not hold these keys since they have been completely duped by the adversary.

[@CwicShow]

@shawnbarnes3420 Ridiculous

[@napaljarrinappaljarri5175]

@@shawnbarnes3420 - go somewhere else with your bitterness.

[@unholywarrior9007]

Well we can't just shun the people. And we need some empathy. So what role do they want ? Is this movement going to be honest on what they want ? Is it a progressive movement to slowly get gay temple marriage ?And everyone gets the priesthood? It like normal politics. We slowly get ore and more progressive and we never resend anything so more and more to the left more and more government. So if we never resend sould we just shun ? Where should the compromise be ?

[@sarahaas183]

This what Elder Holland meant with his “Musket Fire” speech. He was spot on, but widely criticized

[@Nassaldromus]

Mercy (empathy) can not rob Justice (truth) I was typing this and you just said it.

[@songsoflight]

2:03 - Defining empathy and its positive aspects of relating to others' feelings 3:41 - The problem of "misguided empathy" in supporting self-destructive behaviors 6:13 - Empathy as a neutral tool that can be used for good or ill 9:36 - Examples of empathy being "weaponized" or used to manipulate 12:10 - The importance of aligning empathy with knowledge and critical thinking 16:49 - Exploring the quadrants of empathy and knowledge 23:44 - Frustration with the Church when it doesn't match one's empathy level 26:21 - Personal examples of shifting views and narratives about sexuality 32:20 - Distinguishing data, narratives, and knowledge about sexuality 38:01 - Epistemic closure - resisting new information that challenges views 43:17 - Carl Jung on individuation and the "crucifixion of the ego" in growth 49:11 - Value of diverse views and patient flexibility in Church councils 57:41 - Testing, validating and applying knowledge to attain wisdom 1:03:27 - Putting doctrinal truths and knowledge in a hierarchy of values 1:05:41 - Elder Maxwell on the adventure of orthodoxy and ecology of doctrine

[@CwicShow]

Thanks again!

[@tsmithson1]

Misguided empathy, as you are discussing here, is the definition of "co-dependency", which is NOT empathy anymore. Empathy, like love, is responding to suffering by answering the question, What good is needed here to help this person becoming healthy again? Empathy is not tolerating whatever someone does, but the alternative is not condemnation either. Empathy is caring about the persons health and well-being.

[@csc7211]

Well said!

[@davidfrey5654]

Yes. Exactly.

[@geography_guy335]

Part of me almost thinks that Lucifer's rebellion started out this way. He may have been truly concerned about our siblings that would not return to live with our Heavenly Parents. Then at some point it became all about power.

[@CwicShow]

This is my position.

[@ZachGorham44]

I think you are exactly right and that is why his argument was so persuasive. He was appealing to peoples’ empathy by arguing that God’s plan was unjust because it would necessarily involve suffering and inequality. The only way to guarantee no suffering and no inequality was to take away agency and give the decision making power to someone else. Lucifer was all too happy to take on this power if he was allowed to. I think he was always a megalomaniac and just used false empathy as a way to mask his true intentions just like the authoritarians in our culture do today. We are still fighting the same fight now as we were all the way back then!

[@geography_guy335]

​@@ZachGorham44 the only way I differ is that I think that he was truly concerned at first. Isaiah wouldn't mourn his fall if he hadn't fallen from such a great height

[@dcampbell374]

I totally agree with this. Who doesn't want to protect our loved ones from sin and sorrow? I think it would be very easy to take away someone's agency to ensure that they will return to heavenly Father. There are probably parts of Satan's plan that we would all embrace if we didn't see the bigger picture

[@geography_guy335]

@@dcampbell374 that's the problem. We all saw the bigger picture. Lucifer and his followers openly rebelled against God. In mortality denying the Holy Ghost is essentially the same sin

[@FebbieG]

Misguided empathy: Padme listening to Anakin's angered genocidal rant and then comforting him.

[@lizh7777]

Seriously, that's also my favorite example of that. (I use it to teach my kids about toxic relationships 😜)

[@JeffTankerSr]

I"m totally with you. Unfortunately what you are saying is not what is read from the pulpit, and I quote: "Members should also study candidates carefully and vote for those who have demonstrated integrity, compassion, and service to others, regardless of party affiliation. Merely voting a straight ticket or voting based on “tradition” without careful study of candidates and their positions on important issues is a threat to democracy." That is unfortunately the current counsel. We are not necessarily supposed to vote for wise leaders who upload the traditional family. Instead, we are supposed to vote for candidates who advertise themselves as compassionate, and to do otherwise is a "threat to democracy". .... I am not making this up. You can google it yourself.

[@virginiasomerville5113]

I like the term advertise...candidates do flaunt good prior to elections but few follow through. 😢

[@cranberrymarmalade9081]

Demonstrated intergrity...I think that's exactly who we should vote for. If we can find them.

[@thedragonking8854]

lol I’m fine with being a “threat to democracy”. Out of everything listed I’d consider integrity to be the most important as far as the political field goes. Unfortunately there are slim to none options

[@BrotherOfAmaleki]

It seems like you are publicly stating that your understanding of truth exceeds that of those we consider prophets, seers, and revelators. What if this is an indication that you're wrong?

[@lancebroshar5818]

A person once said I needed to understand what they're experiencing. I said no, I don't. I was told I had no empathy. I responded: I didn't need to be hit by a bus to know that it was going to hurt me.

[@tsmithson1]

How do you explain the common language of Jesus suffering everything we have in order for him to be able to succor us then? By your logic, he didn't need to get hit by a bus so he could heal you.

[@lancebroshar5818]

@@tsmithson1 Good points! You're forget one important thing. I'm not the Savior.

[@tsmithson1]

@@lancebroshar5818 Good point! You're forgetting a couple really important things, he said "come follow me", pick up your cross and do as I do. This is one of the bones I have to pick with how Christianity has formulated "The Atonement", it's some legal idea about something Jesus did "for" me, that creates a passivity to our religious life. "I'm not the Savior" becomes a really convenient excuse to not even attempt to descend into another's experience. It's like we are saying, it's his job to do that, not mine, so I can go on acting in less than divine ways, because I'm not Jesus. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that I am Jesus either, but we do have a popular primary song titled "I'm trying to be like Jesus". Does that mean trying right up before the cross or did he actually mean something when he said pick up your cross.

[@lancebroshar5818]

@tsmithson1 Well, you're a much better Christian than I am.

[@thedragonking8854]

@@tsmithson1for every sin there’s the pain, guilt, torment, feeling of abandonment etc. the Savior quite literally suffered all the pains of hell including (and most important) the abandonment of His Father. With the bus example, no he didn’t experience getting hit by a bus but he did experience pain enough “to make even a god tremble”.

[@jtregulator49]

Empathy can be powerful in opening up conversation. The key is to be strong in telling the truth afterward even if truth upsets other people.

[@BrotherOfAmaleki]

I agree. But if someone were to declare that referring to empathy as malevolent or misguided compassion is like calling good evil, would that truth be received?

[@emwettstein]

Great interview. I loved the high empathy/high knowledge chart. Really gives me something to think about in relation to where I am and how I treat others. Jeff/Dan give great information and truth. Loved that last quote by Elder Maxwell! Hit it outta the park!

[@matthewglosenger3180]

Hey Greg. I want you to know that I watched the entire interview. You started by asking "Can empathy be a bad thing?" The answer to this question is an emphatic NO. It can't ever be a bad thing because the definition of empathy isn't how it was described in this video. Sympathy is the act of wallowing in self pity. Misery loves company. Empathy is the relationship we have with another person who is at the beginning of a journey we started long ago in our own lives and GOT PAST. We no longer wallow in the self pity by falling into the same sadness that the person we are trying to help is in at the moment. We live in recovery, not injury. We live in our new joy we found and we don't give the person wallowing the freedom to keep wallowing because it doesn't serve their recovery long term. It does not make their experience irrelevant, but, as a person in recovery or who has been recovered will tell us, it's not helpful to stay in that pity for long. But it can't be overstated that NOT everyone has empathy for another person just because they love them. You CANNOT have empathy for a person who struggles in a way you never have. You don't even know what their experience looks like to be LGBTQ if you are straight and always been that way. However, you CAN empathize with the underlying things that led to the decision to act in an LGBTQ fashion. IE: Girls understand girls more than guys understand girls. What human hasn't thought that at some point? LOL. Empathy can't replace sound doctrine, reasoning, or data. But you're not going to win any debate where reasoning, data, and doctrine is the first weapon in your arsenal. So you MUST attack it from a place you ACTUALLY can relate to. A place where you can actually connect where you won't get push back. So, revisiting the question, "Can empathy be a bad thing", I think that anything outside of a commonality of experience becomes anything BUT empathy and it becomes corrupting. I think it's interesting that you've done interviews highlighting where counseling has been going into unhealthy places but yet you still had this interview with an actual therapist who didn't understand this. Just because someone gets published doesn't make their opinion valid when it shouldn't be. As always, just my opinion. ( I really should do my own podcast. LOL) I like challenging people to think differently.

[@davidfrey5654]

Yes, empathy must come first. If not, you’ll just make an enemy that won’t listen to you and will resent you.

[@urubu715]

If someone is addicted to drugs, you don't show you love them by encouraging them to do whatever they want. You show love by supporting their efforts to stop.

[@Chris27883]

Support is the perfect word considering that's what they say the Savior does.

[@Liz-hr6hf]

I sincerely hope you’re not comparing someone that is gay to someone using drugs.

[@brentyergensen2257]

Important thing for us to realize: toxic empathy, assuming individual narrative is reality, and prioritizing self-pronounced truth as superior to doctrine.

[@deborahbeeton3634]

I heard Jordan Peterson call it “malevolent compassion”

[@CwicShow]

That is the term I use as well.

[@BrotherOfAmaleki]

It is concerning how often Jordan Peterson is praised and quoted in so many of these LDS communities. From what I can see, he preaches conservative values rather than Christian values, and too many Christians think those are synonymous. Tweeting a rebuttal to the Pope on religious matters was very much like Sherem seeking opportunity to confront Jacob.

[@AnalogKid2112]

Thank you for this episode, Greg!! Open, honest, and knowledgeable discussion on this topic is so very important right now. And Jeff Bennion is truly courageous. I work in mental health, and the fact is that psychologists and therapists can literally lose EVERYTHING if they so much as even question the prevailing narrative right now. Good stuff. 💯

[@Leelee-ny9lt]

I would suggest a change of wording , when it comes to "Plan of Happiness" , instead use " Plan TO Happiness". The plan is an ongoing process. Just my thoughts. Love the podcast, Greg!!!!

[@kerstenlindhardt1653]

I agree!!

[@benzun9600]

the Nephites “lived after the manner of happiness” (2 Nephi 5:27). The plan of happiness is joy on the path and eternal destiny afterwards. Dont wait to be happy until after death sometime.

[@davidfrey5654]

The Plan of Happiness is 100% correct. Because it’s a plan that will ensure that everyone is eternally happy where they end up living. Telestial people will be happy to live on a telestial sphere. They would be unhappy living anywhere else. Same with terrestrial and celestial. So it truly IS a Plan of Happiness for all.

[@herbmason3204]

Thanks! Im only 20 min in, but I'm enjoying this so much. Looked another way that I teach my kids, is you cant effectively love someone to become good. This mentality is similar to a good young lady marrying a less than good man, just knowing that she'll be able to change him. How ive always looked at it is, the love felt from God isnt the invitation; the invitation is to learn what we're doing wrong, be inspired its Gods will, repent, and then Gods love fills our hearts. Until then, we feel pricked in the heart that we've messed up. And instead of seeking out vain justification or essentially being told not to worry about it because we're accepted in some way, negats the pain of guilt which is necessary meat for repentance. Typically people repenting of their guilt, kneel before the lord crying or sad, feeling ashamed and regretful; they dont come to Him smiling and laughing in comfort and bliss. Thats the message of popularity seeking born again world and just the world in general. Also, since when in all history, have the true people of God ever been accepted with open arms by the world and by people steeped in the sins of the world??? Since when have they not been hated and cast out??? Since when have they not rubbed kings, rulers, and governments the wrong way??? God has always promised to fight our battles for us, that its not us who comprise the Gosple and change the covenants we deem too inconvenient at any particular time. Too often people view the gosple or God as the thing which is inconvenient or requires walking on eggshells, in need at times of apologizing His teachings being hard to hear. Its not God thats in the wrong, it is sin which is in the wrong, the true inconvenience. Their guilt causes them to tread lightly on eggshells as to not awake the awareness of the gosple, they being the ones in need of apologizing and trespassing Gods laws. We cant justify ourselves or others to heaven. Only Christ can do that.

[@CwicShow]

Thank you!

[@pdnwy]

I think we forget that we can easily shout our empathy on our Rameumptom just like our humility. Both are self-serving. Doing so is evidence you are really the opposite of what you claim to be.

[@justbob2133]

Excellent comment! I probably will be "borrowing" it in future conversations.

[@justbob2133]

Great discussion, and so timely! I'm going to listen to this one again. I love the Elder Maxwell quote that Jeff mentioned at the end. Thanks to all 3 of you!

[@CwicShow]

You're welcome

[@brendamartin3444]

Sympathy… I sincerely feel bad for the things you are struggling with right now, I am ready to comfort you, if you are ready to receive it Empathy… I have been where you are, I remember how it felt, I have real life lived experience that can make a difference in your life, I am happy to share these things with you, when you are ready, I feel sincere sorrow for your situation

[@warrensmith2902]

Your kid suddenly identifies as a cat, no problem be empathetic and supportive: Buy them a cat bed, cat food and a litter box. Sell their computer, phone, TV, cloths, and game consul.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

Excellent work, brethren. What do you think of this? Empathy is a secular substitute for charity, as consent is a secular substitute for sexual morality.

[@safrew1]

Excellent!

[@plum_colored_dahlia]

It’s become even more of my witness that our Savior is very good at what he does in his work of salvation. He is more than competent and I stand in awe at who he is. He sees the one and they are never out of his sight. He knows them and he knows how to help them along their way. Yes, they have their agency; they always have and always will. Sometimes we are permitted to be present as he works his miracles in their life and sometimes he can use us to reach out and minister to them. Remembering that each of our fellow man is in his constant care helps me to take things in stride. We can ask him in prayer how he’d like us to minister to them and we can also go about the business of living our lives well so that we are a blessing wherever we go and to whomever we meet. The Spirit can teaches us what to say when we pray and it can guide us in our conversations with one another. (Preaching to the choir here 😊). It is worth the effort to do the spiritual work to clean up our hearts, minds and actions so the Spirit keeps our company. It can be done and that is where peace, happiness and joy are found. Good show brethren! Good topic. 👍🏻

[@barbarajean7]

I immediately hit the like button when I heard that Jeff Bennion was in this episode. Thank you for being such a voice of reason and for representing Northstar in this way. As a member of the North star parent community, the different points of view represented can often be confusing, but you truly are a Northstar and I'm grateful for you. Thank you Greg for this episode and many others.

[@maxilla_asini]

Great interview. Remember the "It's not about the nail" skit? That is a perfect example of weaponized empathy. Also Doug Wilson talks about this in the first episode of his "Man Rampant" series.

[@tylersingleton9284]

Man, I've hated that skit since the first time I saw it. They played it over and over during my time in YMs and in institute and seminary. Everyone else lapped it up, but I would get so angry because I saw it as telling a lie and ignoring reality.

[@lazerlorne2670]

​@tylersingleton9284 , I never did understand that skit. What were they trying to get across? I'm kind of like, "there is a nail in your forehead" person. A friend's vehicle broke down. It was too expensive to repair and $15,000.00 was still owing on it. Some people said, " walk away from the loan". They wanted to. Some asked them, would doing that help them aquire eternal life? It was the straight talking that helped them make the harder but correct choice. They are happy having choosen honesty.

[@brainhunter1000]

Only on minute 12, but that Freud comment made me think about a new reason divorce is so bad. We know it causes drug addiction, poverty, increase risk for jail and gang relationships. But now this conversation is saying another one is we become over “empathetic” as the world might use the term. That they don’t get the fatherly influence and so the sense of responsibility and accountability leave society and we get this compassion without pain type mentality. Just a thought I had.

[@cerimoore3577]

I learned a really great lesson about appropriate empathy when a fried of mine had an experience where she felt diminished by our childrens' coach. She had expressed a concern about her child's growth regarding specific skills. The coach gave her a simple suggestion that seemed totally reasonable to me, but I could see that my friend was not satisfied with the suggestion. This exchange happened at the end of practice- in the chaos of parents picking up kids. Later that night, my friend posted on social media about how her child's coach had as much as accused her of being an inattentive, non supportive parent. Having been witness to the conversation, I was completely flummoxed by her description of the interaction. All of her friends responded with vitriol towards the coach who, thankfully went unnamed. It was supper eye-opening for me. My friend is an generous, lovely woman. I would not have thought it possible for her to falsely accuse, which just makes me think she must have already been in a fragile state with regards to her motherhood, and something in the coach's words triggered her. I now really try to withhold judgment and apply love without the vitriol and without validating the other person in their story.

[@Kaederyn]

I’m really grateful for this video, thank you! My oldest stepdaughter just came out officially as trans to my husband and I (we knew that this was going to happen at some point), and I’ve been struggling to figure out how to handle this. This chat has been very helpful in that endeavor!

[@aliciasorenson3807]

I am loving this conversation!! Never thought about empathy this way before, and it makes so much sense!🤯

[@larrainemoore1880]

That is wisdom! The narratives people use to say what is true…I loved the quad graph on knowledge and empathy, and the other pyramid of knowledge. Great discussion. I will try to incorporate it into how I talk to my young adult children who are all on different paths. 😅

[@Amanda-yf7vj]

What a great interview!! Thank you all!! God bless!!

[@CwicShow]

Thanks for listening

[@napaljarrinappaljarri5175]

I would like to give an insight into why some people have this misguided empathy. We have recently had an experience in our ward where a female leader “quit” her position because I called out her toxic behaviour (I called this behaviour out privately). Back story - she was gossiping about all men in the ward, particularly male leaders, plus gossiping to her councillors about how soft and useless the sisters were. If her gossip had gotten to the whole ward - it would have torn us all apart (note: all the information she was saying was incorrect, or embellished to make victims where there were none). I never knew that she was gossiping about everyone until I called out her behaviour. All I knew was I got weird vibes from her initially (which I always take note of) and that I am a wife of a priesthood leader in the ward and she had assigned herself to me to be my ministering sister. Every visit with me, she would ask prying questions about how my husband treated me. I would tell her how wonderful my husband is and that he leads our family in a godly manner etc. She would continue to ask more and more prying questions each visit. I got the impression she was trying to find something to nail my husband on. I had enough, I called out her toxic behaviour and told her I never wanted her to visit my home again. I BCC’d her councillors because I could see this woman was good at making up stories. I only did this so no one was caught up in more of her lies. Because I did this, she “quit” immediately that day and sent my message to the stake president and my husband to try and smear my name - her message to them said that I was gossiping about her and bullying her. But I had already informed my husband what I was doing. I then found out from the councillors that their meetings were a gossip fest (where they tried to shut this woman’s gossip down) - one councillor just had enough and had gone to see the bishop the night before my letter to see what could be done about it. This councillor informed me that this woman had told them (the councillors) that I was fake and that no one could have such a perfect life (I never said I did) and that she was going to hammer me with questions until I cracked so she could prove that my life was as miserable as hers. So my insight - I believe that sometimes there is what the church services provider for my leader husband calls “hot empathy” - where a person’s toxic mind or lifestyle influences their ability to empathise with others in that they create false narratives about the person they are being empathetic towards and the empathy achieves nothing and actually makes things worse. Eg: This woman I believe is a narcissist (from observation of her behaviour and learning about this toxic trait in recent years) and behaves as a victim in her own life (I actually don’t know what her life is like, because I don’t believe any of her stories anymore) and therefore has to go around finding other victims so she can whinge about the whole world and how terrible it is. This is of course just one reason or cause of people’s misguided empathy.

[@JC-qz3zr]

This year, I saw misguided empathy play out in my ward and stake regarding FSY, YM/YW Camps, and Youth Conferences. I live in a region of the United States close to the southern border. In a drive to make church programs such as FSY, YM/YW Camps, and Youth Conferences accessible to all youth, those who cannot pass the border checkpoints were exclusively catered to. Their feelings were the priority when it came to location, activities, experiences, and opportunities to meet new people (in this case, there was a huge lack of it) at the expense of the youth who are legal American citizens (whether it's by birth or because their parents utilized the proper channels and immigrated legally). The youth who are legal American citizens were essentially told that the wants of those actively breaking the law will always be prioritized over their needs. This caused a lot of resentment among the church members who are legal citizens of the United States, with the parents planning on sending their youth to these programs elsewhere. The families with young children who saw this play out are now moving out of this region because they don't want their children growing up and being deprived at the expense of those who are not honoring, obeying, and sustaining the law. This will result in the FSY, YM/YW Camps, and Youth Conferences floundering and more families leaving this region of the United States, resulting in the church struggling here, and it's all because of misguided empathy.

[@gemelindacjp7976]

39:51 Great quote from Chesterton. Are there some scriptural passages that would support those ideas?

[@duncansh81]

This was a good discussion. I'm going to read their article! They also have a YT channel that has pretty good content. The analogy of the map vs the geographical features is excellent. It is a manmade construct vs an inborn question without framing it that way.

[@celindahearld1328]

I agree with this 100% . I see even within our own church , having empathy towards peoole who are out right in sin. Christ wants us to help lead people back to him, not makle them comfortable in their sin so as to not offend them. I'm just going to say it, parents all8wing the mutilation of theur childrens bodies to become a different seclx if which they were birn. Adults doing the same thing. Same sex relationships, my giidness we have men becoming women in our Gov't. Some of these people are leaders in the military! And so many other grievous sins. Im certainly not saying to be nean to anyine but we are to share Gids teachings with these people, help them to see their sin and hopefully bring them to repentance. I love the gospel, im so grateful for it and i know my understanding of the gospel in this respect is correct. God does not tolerate sin of any kind

[@Chris27883]

I love hearing this episode. I recently listened to a talk from the Journal of discourses and I think it was either by George Q Cannon or Parley P Pratt and in it they spoke of the horrendous idea of being saved because you're sincere, that as sincere as you might be you have to follow the laws of God to be saved and then spoke of how it is not charitable to tell someone that they are doing just fine because they are sincere. I believe this episode speaks perfectly to that.

[@kellyjean8]

Well said!!! I was nodding my way through this!!👏🏻👏🏻

[@Laurentdu59]

THANK YOU Greg. This will be shared many times. One of my most useful commutes ever, listening to this!

[@MsCrow716]

Great podcast, very informative! Totally agree.

[@CwicShow]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@IntoAllTruth.]

The Book of Mormon is instructive: Omni 1 10 And it came to pass that the prophets of the Lord did threaten the people of Nephi, according to the word of God, that if they did not keep the commandments, but should fall into transgression, they should be destroyed from off the face of the land. 11 Wherefore, the prophets, and the priests, and the teachers, did labor diligently, exhorting with all long-suffering the people to diligence

[@baref1959]

hate the sin, not the sinner - but disassociating the two does not make the sin ok.

[@lukeslc-xd8ds]

Many will say that I am apostate for saying this, whatever "apostate" means, but I believe that certain things spoken from the pulpit (even at general conference) should be taken with a large grain of salt. Just sayin'.

[@frederikatenhoopen6112]

I have counseled missionaries on a mission where they “ feel “ like they’re gay… i saw how compassionate he had become and was directed to see that he was confusing compassion with attraction. They have been set apart and now their focus is to “ love your neighbor .”He realized after some month he was “ not gay.” When little children act “ gay “ they could be experiencing hormonal changes. Believe it or not the shawts they are getting can contribute to this imbalance….

[@stanleymcomber4844]

I’ve always delineated a difference between empathy and sympathy. Empathy towards someone, means you know and have experienced the same issue, as apposed to sympathy which is just feeling sorry for someone. This sounds like the misuse of terms, to my point of view.

[@sherriedix5837]

I think I’m low empathy and I know for a fact my daughter is high empathy. She left the church to stand with the LGBTQ community even though she is not one of them. She also has her masters degree in psychology so, there just wasn’t a lot I could do once her mind was made up. But- I keep Praying she can find a balance. This was a really great discussion for me to hear. It shed alot of light on something I watched happen to my daughter.

[@DavoBenjamin]

33:05 High empathy paired with low knowledge can be a vulnerable combination for individuals. Narcissists often target such individuals in relationships, akin to sharks going after weak or sick fish. They exploit their empathy to exert control. Awareness of this dynamic is crucial for self-protection.

[@Zeett09]

My wife’s LDS family lent an empathetic ear to several Jehovahs Witnesses missionaries many years ago. Guess what? 1/2 of them converted. The family is so religiously divided they won’t attend the opposite faiths funerals all due to empathy.

[@gemelindacjp7976]

Great video so far! One thing: innocent children are not capable of a sexual orientation. You can't have a "gay child," at the very least not before age eight, and probably not before puberty.

[@MrRickb75645]

I agree. When I was twelve , I worried I was gay. Because I was infatuated with a boy in my school. This scared me. And so I told my father. He laughed, but not at me, but by my innocence. He said , worry not my son. Your are facing puberty, and you will find some one else to get your heart going the very next week. But that won't last as well. Your hormones are out of wack. Be patient and wait a little longer and all will straighten out. He was right. It all settled down with in the next two years. And I was completely straight. But I had a very understanding father. What about kids with parents who are not ? I fear this is where we get you g people who think they are gay , and they're not.

[@Zeett09]

My friend’s son was about 4 years old when he presented clearly feminine mannerisms. Everyone knew he was likely gay at age 4. Sure enough he ended up coming out in his early 20’s, and found a terrific partner and has a great career. Now he is in his mid 30’s.

[@tomasina10]

@@Zeett09Being “gay” is being attracted to the same sex . It is NOT an interest or characteristic. Lots of men who don’t spend their days watching sports or whatever is “manly “ in 2024 like women . To be blunt it is the desire to have a physical relationship with the same sex NOT anything else .

[@JarvieDigital]

Have you listened to the podcast The Ancient Tradition .... I feel like it would be right up your alley. Specially with your connection to Egypt trip.

[@chucknelson1378]

Your strength can be your weakness, President Oaks talks about this in a talk.

[@napaljarrinappaljarri5175]

Yes and President Oaks has also been talking aiming for Celestial Kingdom - not to mention President Nelson. I don't know what Greg is talking about saying the church messaging has gone soft and we don't' talk about exaltation.

[@clintonmiller9035]

At what point do we risk losing the 99 to go after the 1?

[@aaronbullen9120]

This really is the same lesson that Elder Anderson gave us about the two great commandments and the suspension bridge.

[@anthonyjames4478]

Misguided empathy is that kind of sharing that tends to validate the behavior or choice that needs genuine and honest re-evaluation.

[@darlayeates510]

Greg, are you aware of the Cougar Chronicles article on how the RaYnbow Collective Vice President was quietly removed from the speakers list for the upcoming Women's Conference? This is encouraging, and maybe your efforts to bring awareness are helping. Troy Ables of The Last Dispensation touched on this.

[@gefil8781]

The daughter of Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt is a good example. As a child, Shiloh Jolie-Pitt said she was a boy so her parents let her dress as a boy and called her John. In a recent photograph, she is dressed in an evening grown with makeup and long hair, a very beautiful young woman. What happened? She grew up and passed through the phase of thinking she was a boy.

[@Laurentdu59]

👍 She grew up... with no help from clueless Hollywood "parents". 🤔

[@markbowman8586]

Recently, an organization in our ward, had a portion of a discussion, that included how we needed to love and support teenagers who identify as animals. I heard about it second hand, but was disturbed that no one mentioned we are created in the image of God, not animals. High empathy/low knowledge can damage people. It supports them in fantasy. True facts supersede stories. Facts are more friendly than empathy, for they actually help people do and become better. Though, the presentation of facts are sometimes better made following listening with moderate empathy. Empathy today, is often encouraging people to languish in falsehoods. I personally think the best place to be on this quadrant table might be "High knowledge/moderate empathy". Though I'm not sure about that.

[@jasonrobinson8912]

Heck is exactly right.. pray for the experience god would have them have to learn and return to thee. Amen 🙏

[@rudycox7688]

I love watching your channel. Always very informative. Have you considered having Rosaria Butterfield on your show. I don't know how she feels about the LDS church, but she would be an interesting person to discuss the LGBTQ and Christianity issue.

[@andrewbfrost7021]

Empathy/compassion can’t be malevolently used by the person feeling it. It can be manipulated for evil by those outside the person feeling it. It can exist in a framework of lies that cause the empathy to bring about evil. But the person feeling it, if it is truly felt, cannot feel it with the express intention to do with it what they know is evil towards the object of their empathy. It can exist in the mind of a person at the wrong level of the moral hierarchy, but not as an explicit tool to harm the the person towards it is felt on purpose; in my opinion.

[@bradpetersen7803]

So what do parents do when a child tells them he or she is gay? Society, medical community and psychologists all tell the child they were born this way. How does a parent know if they were born that way. Even if they believe they wernt born that way, they automatically have the world between them and the child. The child will leave forever if parents don't empathize or support. This seems like an impossible pretzel parents are being asked to negotiate.

[@CwicShow]

Not impossible. That is a great question for Jeff

[@sarahjoym]

As a parent having to navigate this very thing with my own teenagers, I have come to learn that the fear my child will leave forever is a lie. It is not my role to “save” my children or to stop them from leaving me or the gospel. Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and it is clear that Heavenly Father’s Plan of Salvation is centred on our personal growth and development. My role is to be a parent and to love my children. I can set healthy boundaries and work to create unity within my home without compromising my covenants AND desire to work to be personally qualified to have an eternal family. The Church handbook gives wise counsel to us as parents that we are to take the long view and be patient. I also hold on to the belief that these children were sent and prepared for this time, and that we don’t understand yet how this will all work out and the understanding our youth will gain by passing through this societal philosophy of man. I believe the Lord has a plan for each of us and it is up to us to choose to have faith in that plan, instead of responding with our fears. My children know I love them no matter what, and they are okay with me expressing that I don’t understand or share the same feelings. Yet, I have expressed to them that regardless of sharing different thoughts and feelings we can certainly create a safe space and respect for each other. They have responded very well to this.

[@CwicShow]

@@sarahjoym Thank you!

[@daleclark7127]

Key reason i stopped my attention to the Faith Matters organization. It was apparent the organization was heading in this direction of empathy over the Gospel.

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Other than the idol-worship of the prophets and apostles by the guests, I enjoyed this conversation. As far as Joseph not "obeying" the word of wisdom, it's interesting that we as believers in the Restoration look at that and judge him, instead of considering that we don't understand it correctly.

[@RebeccaGroendyke]

Sometimes our empathy, sympathy and compassion leads to advocacy. If we are not careful and prayerful we can enable others and actually get in the way of what the Lord can do.

[@drmichaelshea]

Proverbs 13:24. “Misguided empathy” and enabling are near synonyms.

[@jmjm4860]

The scripture that teaches not to favor the poor in judgment dismantles the entire premise of social justice, yet many Christian continue to have faith in this horrible doctrine in the name of empathy. Your guests are right that knowledge must be a part of sorting out differences of healthy and non-healthy empathy. Understanding the scriptures is key. Following our current culture can quickly lead one to the abyss.

[@harambeboy]

I would love to have a drink w Joseph Smith.

[@CwicShow]

So would I.

[@justbob2133]

​@@CwicShowYes, but if Brigham asked me to join him in a pinch of snuff I'd probably pass.

[@bumpercoach]

Also considet how God tries His people via BOTH ease and hardship We should not expect to always be told what is right any more than always healed since we arent here for either such optimality

[@glycoboy]

This last priesthood class the teacher focused on “judge not” and gave all these examples about how he caught himself with unconscious bias when he went to be a referee at a church basketball game or one team had mostly Mexicans and one team were mostly Caucasian. He said he was afraid that if he happen to call more fouls on the Mexican team. People would think he was racist so he decided to make sure and call additional fouls on the Caucasians just in case, it wasn’t balanced. So he was deciding to not Treat everyone based on the same set of rules, i.e. equality, but instead considered in his mind if he would instead make sure and be a little more harsh on the Caucasians as to not be perceived a racist… he would go onto be fair in the number of files. He called on each side based on equality, but simply because he had thought enter his mind before hand that he might want to be additionally harsh to the Caucasians made him feel totally guilty because he considered this judging.. 😢 t they might think about him. that has nothing to do with unconscious bias. And none of that has to do with not judging All of the comments were focused on how we should not judge other people no matter how bad their actions are except one finally mentioning the cave that we should, of course judge righteously.. 😢 “Our own sins and lack of perfect understanding disqualify us from being able to pass final judgments on anyone, including ourselves. We must, however, make constant intermediate judgments. We are to righteously judge actions, not condemn people. When those judgments are based on principles of righteousness, our focus will more fully turn to the Lord Jesus Christ. “

[@All-Things-LDS-ze1rh]

Such a great episode---thanks!

[@lightrevolutionsdotcom9415]

"Epistemic closure" ... the concept & reality of "cognitive dissonance" is powerful.

[@karylmorgan7320]

Being baptized at 16 w/o my parents and attending BYU at 17 (so young and new in church) someone showed me the same info about JS drinking and BY snuffing and I just figured it was a Word of Wisdom and maybe they didn't have the wisdom to keep it yet but later I found out it wasn't a commandment for many years after JS was martyred(sp). So then I figured the same. If it had been a commandment they probably would have had the spirit to keep it right away. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little for all of us. But like you, it didn't bother my testimony when I was 17. It was a surprise but as I got older and had more wisdom I understood it better. As Dan says more knowledge but...I don't have empathy for those who quit living Word of Wisdom but I mind my own business when they tell me. What do you call that? ( I doubt many Saints gave up coffee or tea right away in 1833, do you?)

[@joannastle7901]

It makes me sad to think that any human idea could be credited to be more compassionate than the Savior.

[@BrotherOfAmaleki]

Is empathy the human idea you're talking about? I would think that because the Savior suffered all things, his ultimate compassion IS empathy. Maybe when we see counterfeits of truth, we should give it a different name before attacking it. Empathy is charity, but the counterfeit of empathy is not. We have now put an hour long video into the world that suggests something that is good like empathy is actually bad, just because bad people incorrectly call what they do empathy.

[@tenerds4569]

Watching a certain musicians recent song makes me sad. Seeing the change of countenance really is apparent. What i don't get is if your child chooses a different path you and your family doesn't have to go with them. Majority of my family is not active and one child is ugly i in. I still keep my sealing covenants.

[@gemelindacjp7976]

Misguided empathy = malevolent compassion = codependence. The people who prefer to descend into hell and remain there with their self-destructive loved ones seem to think their version of love is better than the charity of Heavenly Father and Jesus that rejoices in the truth and continually seeks to lift people. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

[@tdwagner1]

It reminds me of the adage and scripture straight is the gate and narrow the way; I interpret that now as walking that thin line between empathy, sympathy, and righteous. And frankly it is not a straight line in practice.

[@glenshaver9013]

Question; is miss guided empathy , being victimized by one’s own good intentions ?

[@paulspence8980]

Empathy means that you can understand or identify with the feelings or situation that someone else is going through. That is its meaning. Language is under attack. This is just another misuse of a word to really push, not for understanding, but for advocacy and validation of any behavior. I would say that the literal quality of empathy is Christlike or divine. We should feel for those experiencing pain for any reason. That should be something we care deeply about and should desire to minimize that pain if we can. But this does not mean that we don't acknowledge the natural man's role in bringing upon ourselves much of the pain we feel. The acknowledgment of the real cause of pain is the real start to relieving that pain by ridding ourselves of the cause. So many time the cause of our pain is deep misunderstanding of reality, which could include anything from simple ignorance to full on delusion, or its simply the natural consequence of traditional sinful behavior. Regardless of the cause of the pain, we should still care about it and hope and pray for its relief.

[@parkcityprimarychoosetheright]

Thank you.

[@CwicShow]

Welcome!

[@MamushMatusala]

Jeff is brilliant. Kudos dude

[@deborahcasper6120]

Thanks!

[@CwicShow]

You’re welcome. And thank you!

[@darlayeates510]

Our government welfare system is another good example of misguided empathy. So much damage can occur in individual lives, families, and society when welfare is misused. I've seen individuals become completely unable to be self-sufficient, the family unit is weak, and they live far below their potential.

[@porchtime504]

Great episode guys

[@dmandrewsauthor]

Anyone find the source for that Maxwell quotation they give at the end of the video?

[@glenshaver9013]

Question ; is miss guided empathy , pollyanaism ?

[@bbbarham6264]

Empathetic listening was NOT the issue in that situation with the ministers. The people leaving probably had a valid concern (like Joseph’s polygamy or the erased church doctrine supporting the priesthood ban) and the ministers did not know how to have a nuanced perspective, due to the black and white culture in the church, so they couldn’t reconcile it and left. THAT was the issue, not the fact that they listened to valid concerns about church history or doctrine.