The Death of the Author and how it affects History

[@CynicalHistorian]

4:35 - While Michael Jackson did overdose, it has been determined that his doctor was at fault for bad proscription during one of Jackson's restless nights. His doctor actually served a 2 year stint in jail under the charge of involuntary manslaughter for issuing the medicine to Jackson, who was determined to be abusing the drugs with Murray's knowledge. So Jackson technically did kill himself, but that is somewhat more complicated than the statement in the video may have you believe.

[@seigerthomastwo1200]

gtfo. did did Harold Shipman's victims kill themselves? does death of the author explain your hypocrisy for advocating accuracy whilst perpetuating myth?

[@mankytoes]

I like some of your videos but you are soooo defensive. Jackson did not "kill himself" in the way that the phrase is used, anymore than fat people "kill themselves" by eating too many hamburgers.

[@malic_zarith]

@@seigerthomastwo1200 Dr. Death had a whole list of victims. I'd like to see some evidence of other murders by Jackson's doctor before comparing him to one of the most prolific serial killers in history.

[@traplover6357]

How about artists who purposefully include their lives and thoughts on their art like Kanye West? If we remove the artist from the art, it's like removing most of the content.

[@CynicalHistorian]

Then that's part of the text, and therefore part of the context to be analyzed as according to New Historicism

[@IAmAwesomeRocker]

We give it new meaning of the message based on our different backgrounds. The meaning is not in the message but it's in people. That's the point of the argument from the essay of Barthes

[@supermasterball1]

@@CynicalHistorian That makes a lot of sense, the Song 'Born This Way' by Lady Gaga holds quite a bit of meaning for me because of the organization bearing the same name with it's mission which involved anti-bullying. So I think it adds some interesting context to the song.

[@oliviastratton7097]

I agree with this idea in the way you apply it. But I've seen this idea taken way too far. For instance I've seen people take statements like "I don't see color" and try to say that this means the person is racist because if they don't see race they don't see racist behavior. Clearly they MEAN that they don't use race/skin color as a metric to evaluate other people on a character level. I think in cases like this, the person should be allowed to defend their statement on the basis of intent.

[@johnyricco1220]

It's not possible to separate Crosby from his work because the work is visual art. That's him on screen, we're not reading his words. Especially in the case of family comedy where the audience has to like the comedian and accept him as a plausibly wholesome person

[@aaroncohen2700]

@@MrChickennugget360 But on screen he is portraying a character. Even if the character is supposed to be a parody or version of himself.

[@andrurosales5750]

Bring Crosby?

[@viktorberzinsky4781]

You can never separate the art from the artist because the art is ultimately a product of their outlook and their psyche.

[@SpyroJance]

Thank you for introducing me to this concept. It seems to work in wider contexts as well - if you like someone, you will interpret their actions in a positive light, and if you dislike someone, you will interpret their actions in a negative light. It seems to be related to confirmation bias.

[@ntdonat]

the thing about the death of the author is that if the intent of the author is not valid, then the intrepretations of the reader is not valid either, because it to is just another intent that might not reflect the meaning of the work... for example: *what is really the face meaning of "all men are created equal"? well no mention of women... so are they equal to men?

[@avivastudios2311]

Are opinions ARE valid because that is how we decide whether or not we enjoy things

[@MrSkovbakke]

Hey, Cypher! I really like your channel - you're doing some nice work! When you brought up Michael Jackson and you said that one of the reasons he wasn't impacted as much by the scandals was because "his music was never perceived as holding any kind of greater meaning". You afterwards say that they're not texts to draw existential statements from. It's not that I'm any huge MJ fan or anything, but I believe you do music a disservice here, because a lot of his songs are about political and environmental issues. Examples could be Heal the World or Black Or White. Music holds meaning as well and I was wondering how one would go about deconstructing a piece of music where the literal text only plays a factor in it. Do you have any thoughts on that? Kind regards A historically and musically interested viewer. PS Keep up the good work and good luck with the Ph.D.

[@TheAnonymmynona]

I think "Death of the Author" is a good concept but i wouldn't support a strict aplipication as looking at the Author CAN add or clarify meaning (espeacialy with poems or similar literatur) So it can be intresting and helpfull to look at the intent of the author but it should be a secondary consideration and only if its the intent and not if its just something unrelated in their life

[@CynicalHistorian]

That's the interesting thing on these kinds of ideas: It's another interpretive tool in the box. You're right that you can't always discount intent. For instance, reading someones diaries that have particular affectations, like short-hand or weird notes, it's best to try to figure out what the author meant by those. But in history, the author is often dead, so you kind of just have to figure it out on your own.

[@DarkSydeEditing]

So if an author explains what the underlying meaning of the book is, that does not matter? In the UK sir you would undoubtedly be called a Wanker, as that is utter pseudo intellectual bullshit.

[@Crazael]

I have always held the opinion that the author's intent is a perfectly valid angle to look at something. But it is not, and should not be treated as, any more valid than anyone else's interpretation of the work. The exception may be in documents like the Declaration of Independence, where the author's intent, as well as the historical context of the language used, are very much part of the work's meaning at the time it was created. That meaning has since changed, of course.

[@Deadite1982]

I have this same relationship to the films of Roman Polanski. I say this as someone that believes in a middle ground. If one can't watch his films because of what he did. Then they should not watch his films. If, on the other hand someone can separate the art from the artist, that is fine to. I don't think either is a bad choice, as it's subjective to the person. As a film buff, I respond to his work, because especially between Repulsion through Chinatown, his work his brilliant. Rosemary's baby is one of the best horror films ever made. Chinatown is freaking Chinatown. Not saying I like all his work, but for a time he was a top film maker. I also think he should be in jail. For me it's not separating the art from the artist. It's viewing the films as their own thing, irregardless of what baggage the director brings in his life. Joss Whedon is a smug asshole, I still love The Avengers. Mel Gibson is a racist, I still think Braveheart is brilliant. On and on. To me, rather an artist is problematic or not is irrelevant to the work itself. That doesn't mean they should or should not face consequences for their actions. It just means the work is out there, a part of our culture, and if we we're worried about the creators as people, we could not enjoy and appreciate anything, ever.

[@heykidschultz2225]

As a society, we have lost the ability to be able to separate the fact that what they do for a living is just that their JOB! No matter what that job is, be it acting, writing, music, chef, or whatever they do that

[@mvaliente2001]

I don't know if you've read Jorge Luis Borges beautiful short story "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote". It illustrates that point wonderfully. It's bout a man, Pierre Menard, who decides to write a book that is, word by word, a copy of Cervantes' Quixote. But he's a 20th century man, so the book has a very different meaning.

[@princejellyfish3945]

a seriously amazing piece of philosophical fiction, like most of his writings.

[@Rev6044]

How about George Orwell? I have read a couple of books of his essays. They provide us a lot of context for Animal House, and 1984.

[@bbbabrock]

Is that t definition of "grok"? I always understood it more as coming to understand something so well, that one has completely internalized it, and that this often is a process th as t takes quit a bit of time. It was a Martian concept and it was shown that Martians were so slow and deliberate that they often took many years to decide to act on a matter.

[@codex3048]

But did Derrida and Barthes suggest that the death of the author theory should apply to all authors -- including modern historians -- or just fiction writers?

[@CynicalHistorian]

Derrida didn't actually write about _death of the author,_ but informed much of the theory's development via _deconstruction._ Barthes and Foucault did. Foucault clearly meant it to refer to all text, since he was writing about historic documents

[@chinesellama1]

Love your videos, and love that you're also from SLO! I love that little Carnegie library :-)

[@JCdental]

If the intent is factually documented, you cant really ignore it

[@waderedsox]

Does this apply to speeches and quotes? Mlk or Kennedy and his moon speech or the Gettysburg address? I understand why it's useful and why you would want it but it also seems as though it could be somewhat limiting, like understanding that ayn Rand grew up in communist poverty goes a long way twords understanding how somebody could write all the crazy shit she wrote XD i mean I could certainly just say "that's some crazy shit" but if some aspect of the authors background can potentially give me some degree of insight as to where it MAY have come from I think that's useful to think about, it's certainly not a certainty but it does seem more than useless, even though I get how speculation down that path could quickly get out of control (apologies for my poor oversimplified example)

[@CynicalHistorian]

With your example (and it's actually quite an apt one), you're referring to why someone would write something, not what they wrote. The reasons behind any given work is important, but has no bearing on the meaning that work conveys. The fact is, most people read Rand without knowing her background. Knowing that doesn't give one a leg-up interpreting her work, but at least explains where it is coming from

[@waderedsox]

@@CynicalHistorian theres alot of different ways to think about that, it seems as though that [theory, idea, principle?] is attempting to control for assumptions about the authors intent at the time of writing, and it stating the work as set in stone at the time it is written or said, and i can really see how that would be useful in situations when a politician says something and 10 years later says no i didnt mean it that way, but it also seems to open statements up to more broad interpretations by the historians i could be overthinking this but it really seems like there is alot to unpack there its interesting to think about

[@jaydentownsend5402]

I think it would be interesting if writers were put under the same process as art students, where you must write artist statements for your works, as I've wrote far longer than I have painted, I found the reason for needing to add an external piece of writing regarding the work to be somewhat signifigant for further reading to an audience that is interested in the author's perspectives and opinions, while the ability to tell a story is the base to a great storyteller, I think if it was standardised for Author's to write seperate short essays on their works to help people further understand specifically what the author wanted to tell. Imagine if we had this kind of thing for books like TKAMB, c.s lewis, tolkein, tolstoy even, just short summaries no larger than like 5k (pretty much the equivelent of "literature notes" but the author does them. As a writer I am 100% down to make this a standard as I dont even fully know what I was on about in my floppy manuscripts.

[@andreraymond6860]

I am very interested in historian Stephen Ambrose, author of "Band Of Brothers" and "Citizen Soldiers" whose works have fallen into disrepute despite his amazing popularity as an historian of World War Two. Regardless of the critical judgements levelled against him by his peers, his works will continue to influence generations of readers. Any thoughts?

[@CynicalHistorian]

His work has fallen into disrepute because it is highly plagiarized - which is one of the worst things you can do as a historian. The man is the only person to have a Bancroft Award rescinded. I recently read an excellent book on this subject called _Past Imperfect_ by Peter Hoffer. He explores some recent historiographic controversies quite well.

[@andreraymond6860]

Thanks I'll look it up.

[@TomMorrisGolf]

great video , its very interesting idea. quick note the red text on the galaxy photo was a bit hard to read , other than that I loved it , keep up the excellent quality :)

[@CynicalHistorian]

question on your note - are you watching on a mobile device or something with a small screen - I do need to change the way I do text, but I need to figure out what suits whom best

[@TomMorrisGolf]

Thanks for the reply, I love your channel and videos, in regards to your question I watch on a phone.

[@CynicalHistorian]

The next one I edit, I'll try playing it on my Nexus 5x to see if the text works

[@TomMorrisGolf]

Thanks that is great, i just wanted to give you some helpful feedback :)

[@ToxicCrayon]

5:46 re Orson Scott Card, etc., while Death of the Author may render such works separate from their problematic creators, there remains a moral complication in consuming such works, Namely, in many cases these creators still make money off said works. As a fer-instance, Card has donated money to anti-LGBT causes, so Death of the Author or not, purchasing his books or spending money to see a film based on his works potentially means putting $$$ in his pocket...money he might then spend on causes the audience might be opposed to. One can argue that art is only truly separated from the artist when the pursestrings are cut and they cannot profit from the art's consumption. Do we *want* Bill Cosby getting a penny from our consuming his work? In my own case, absolutely not.

[@captainjoshuagleiberman2778]

I would suggest avoiding lumping in constitutional interpretation into this theory because one of the schools of thought on constitutional interpretation and on legislative interpretation in general is the intent.

[@Rev6044]

I am not familiar with Orson Scott Card. Did/do Michael Jackson and Bill Cosby have programs they want to advance? Maybe Robert Heinlein was too subtle with his messages.

[@rauldjvp3053]

Generally good but with songs like Heal the World, Black or White, Earth Song, They Don’t Care About Us, Man in the Mirror, I’m not sure that Michael Jackson only put out fun songs without explicit political messages or thought-provoking lyrics. btw your videos on the Civil War were of great help for a school essay not too long ago, so thanks

[@kmzstube]

Robert Heinlein was a libertarian (after having been a New Deal era liberal).en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein

[@satanlover134]

8:47 The media aren't philosophers and yes his songs are valuable for philosophical and historical reasons. Jackson was popular, Cosby gets criticized two but he was popular a long long time ago and hes an old conservative so it's not exactly surprising.

[@gumgumdookuin7963]

What the feck does being conservative have to do with anything? He's a traditionalist. Big feckin' woop.

[@jesussoto2722]

can you please review Hacksaw Ridge

[@CynicalHistorian]

I plan on it, but it'll have to wait until I can get it on Bluray. Got a lot of backlog until then

[@david3188col]

lol i dont think micheal jackson killed himself. great video though.

[@kenkastlekausmo701]

David3188col Look up his death. It reads homicide.

[@rodneykelly8768]

How does "Death of the Author" effect history we know to be incorrect? Two examples are the 300 Spartans in the "Battle of Thermopylae," and how many believe that the Jews were the only one who died in the Concentration Camps.

[@gumgumdookuin7963]

That last one you wrote is acting on conspiracy ground. Please push this in the right direction very carefully.

[@gaur1269]

So how about Jimmy Saville? I don't think anyone wants to watch anything with him in it, even now he's dead. And his crimes were connected to his TV shows including abuse on sets of shows he did, so detaching him from his work is much more problematic.

[@therealhardrock]

You know, George Lucas has said that the ewoks in Return of the Jedi were based on the Vietcong, which angers a lot of Conservative critics. However, the movie was released in 1983 when the Russians were invading Afghanistan and the US was backing the resistance, which is what the Battle of Endor feels more like. Speaking of Star Wars, in real life, Harrison Ford is nothing like Han Solo, Indiana Jones, or President James Marshall from "Air Force One." His movie characters are very popular with conservatives, but the man himself, being a liberal Democrat (par for the course in Hollywood) is not. But once he dies, will people forget his personal life and only remember his movies?

[@sonnywoods6846]

You said Michael Jackson music has no meaning that his work is just something to dance too! That is wrong in a lot of his song there are song about the environment, feeding poor children and helping the poor, looking at your self and being a better person. Some of MJ songs, Man in the mirror, Heal the World, We Are the World ( song written to bring awareness Africa), they don't really care about us, and Black and White Earth Song, just to name a few

[@AI.REACTIONS]

You argument contradicts with itself. Saying that the reason Michael's work remained separate from his slandered reputation is because his work does not carry much weight , contradicts the reason as to why Cosby's work is being attached to his reputation. Both of their works do not carry significant weight: one's is pop music, the other's is comedy. The actual reason is because Michael was acquitted and the majority of people presume that he was innocent and... He's dead, while Cosby is presumed to be guilty by the majority.

[@CynicalHistorian]

you have not described a contradiction. engage with the material presented, rather than moving goal posts

[@rorystockley5969]

I only care about what the author did if it was their personality I was supposed to like, e.g. Bill Cosby. With Orson Scott Card or Michael Jackson I couldn't really care less about what they were like as people because it is their creations I enjoy, not them personally.

[@5RRRtarRiver]

For once, I disagree with you fundamentally. “Death of the author” helps us benefit from the good works of very flawed people, but doesn’t work as an absolute. It’s better tempered with some context about the author. You like Orson Scott Card, and you’re being defensive, maybe. I get it; I like Pantera...but maybe nobody should take in Hitler’s speeches without ANY author’s context, no one should take in what Jordan Peterson says about human suffering without the knowledge that he takes antidepressants long term.You’re better off listening to Eazy E rapping about having raw doggin’ hoes with the added context that he died of AIDS.

[@gumgumdookuin7963]

I couldn't understand a feckin' word you had written...

[@traplover6357]

GumgumDookuin he's basically saying removing all context and the artist from the art is as detrimental as saying art is separate from the artist since without them, they wouldn't have created it.

[@vadimheldar]

thank you! just today was goibg thru post-modern ideas

[@gda295]

the more reliable...a book of autobiography or a peer reviewed book by a scholar of that person? the latter

[@gumgumdookuin7963]

They can both tell lies. Don't make yourself as this defender of Jackson.

[@noncombatveteran8714]

Sorry cypher but the Chris Benoit fallout proves this idea kind of dead

[@WordBearer86]

You've gotten much better with your presentation man! I'd like to point out that perhaps Jackson's sales didn't diminish due to the allegations, because he was repeatedly shown to be innocent of those charges. The Michael Jackson Rebuttal video by Razorfist. I HIGHLY recommend you check it out, it's about 36 minutes long, but well worth the viewing. I will link it below. That being said I have yet another bone to pick with you; at around 5:40 you stated "Yes, his raping of several women is a blight upon his record" and as far as I know he was declared innocent of those charges wasn't he? If I'm mistaken and his trial hasn't happened yet, then what happened to innocent until proven guilty? Your statement is making the assumption he is guilty and presenting it as an established fact in this video. I don't think that was your intention to do so, but it doesn't come off well. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bKHRoISnod6ah9U - The Michael Jackson Rebuttal

[@CynicalHistorian]

Yeah, there is an "allegedly" in the script, but I didn't catch that I'd missed it. I'll put an annotation on the video.

[@aaronkhan2357]

Please do a video on Oliver Stone's movie JFK ... I would LOVE to hear your opinion and spin on it!!! Thank you and your KZbin video series is freaking AWESOME!!!

[@Cinefilms_708]

Thank you.

[@obermegalutschoar]

I think you are failing to take into account these works not only as 'art' but also as escapist media and as marketable products. When someone watches The Cosby Show, they will not, in all likelihood, view it as a work of art to be critically analyzed, but as a form of entertainment. If they viewed the show critically, they may not lose any enjoyment, but if they simply watch it to be entertained they can't but associate the work with the actor, which makes them unable to enjoy it. The second point of the work as a marketable product views the interpretation of the work as entirely irrelevant: people do not choose to not watch something because they are critically opposed to it, but because consuming it would support someone financially who is committing something the consumer considers wrong. Let's assume Orson Scott Card had explicitly said he supported gay rights during the writing and publishing of his books, but had begun writing hate speech when production of the movies started. In this case people would still have boycotted the books and the movie, even though they were created under a pro-gay rights worldview of the author.

[@satanlover134]

8:39 Are you fucking serious, they attacked him because he was a big deal and yes his music has great meaning. Why are you messing up such simple things?

[@thomaspaine3394]

Very interesting:)

[@liamtahaney713]

personally i like shadow series more..

[@hieronyma_]

Shut up man, linguistics and literature for ever! >:(

[@ivangushkov3651]

umm about Michael Jackson...no just no. I HATE pop music with a burning passion. I never could listen to a MJ song without getting boren. His music was not tarnished by the scandals because anyone with half an eyeball could see that the accusations raised against him were BULLSHIT and the sly lying sensationalistic mainstream (and not so mainstream) media was just looking for an outrageous story. This is what happened with Trump (and I am no Trump supporter), I mean what didnt they call him? Hitler, racist, homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic, sexist and probably some more I missed. The public opinion is not something that can be easily molded by the media in our time. There is the internet now, and everyone can do research and the only ignorant people are the willfully ignorant.

[@gumgumdookuin7963]

Found my, "I hate so and so thing, but respect, and or love so and so person who does something I greatly loathe."

[@StepBackHistory]

Paging Dr. Hayden White to this video

[@CynicalHistorian]

had not heard of that guy. I'll have to look him up.

[@StepBackHistory]

He's written a few books on the literary study of writing history. Which means we can look at historical writing in the ways we look at literature, comedy tragedy, liberal conservative, radical, anarchist, etc.

[@ethanfasking5243]

Excuse me but what? MJ had a lot of deep, meaningful songs, and the allegations were entirely unfounded. The latter is the difference between those cases

[@Godiswithus3]

*read some of Scott’s “homophobic” rants.* ...I fail to see what he said was wrong.

[@simonhofer7895]

Well, Id suggest that you got it worng. In my opinion, as Long as youre good enough at what you so, and beloved enough as Well, you can so whatever you want. You will still not have to cope with the consequences of your wrongdoing since so many people Like you. Eg. Elvis and precilla Presley vs. Any case with a similar Situation but where the offender is Not a legend(even if for the wrong reasons, but thats a different Story)