D&D 5e combat is too slow.

Greetings mortals. It’s another Dungeon World video! This time I talk about its combat system (or lack thereof). Which do you prefer: a combat system with a good amount of crunch to it? Or something more narrative and freeform like Dungeon World? Comment below!
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[@quickanddirtyroleplaying]

6:23 This is a salient point you've made here: you can effectively (though very strangely) play D&D simply by invoking rules and game mechanics at each other. "I make an attack roll. I roll Persuasion. I deal 3d6 + INT damage." This design makes it possible to incorporate it into CRPGs very effectively, allowing the game designers to met out every possible outcome based on these binary resolution systems. In Dungeon World, a player literally cannot simply say, "I Hack & Slash or I Discern Realities or I Defy Danger" and expect the move's game mechanics to activate, due to the narrative trigger requirements set in place. Engaging in the narrative IS the whole game and not just the fluff in between the complex sub-game of skirmish combat encounters.

[@Red_Wonder8]

I agree, sometimes entire sessions can be just one encounter and go on for hours, and then in the game it's only been a minute.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Yeah that combat drag makes it so that you can't do much else in a session of 5e

[@SergioLeRoux]

That's why it's called Dungeons and Drag-Ons.

[@TheNanoNinja]

I tend to keep my group to 4 players for this reason. I've played in groups of 6-7 players any up to 10 in one session. I've played several session where I made a bad role on a Save and miss out on 2 turns. Once we started a session at 8.00 pm. First combat started at 8.30 pm. I made my first attack role at 11.30 pm.

[@drunkendelver1966]

I just did a sample combat scene for a solo Dungeon World game. Here's how that played out: A tavern is being coerced into paying off a band of thugs for protection. A thief in the shadowy corner of the dining room looses an arrow at their leader, immediately drawing the ire of the bandits. Just as they are running at the thief, the wizard next to him fires off a Magic Missile, brutally wounding their leader. The bandits attempt to go to their leader's aid, but he tells them to get the wizard and take his spellbook. The wizard fails his dex roll, and he gets brutalized by them. Just then, the cook steps out of the kitchen, wielding a massive meat hammer. Huge guy, built like a brick shithouse. He brushes his way through the crowd like a bouncer, grabbing the wizard by the scruff of his robe and holding him high above their reach. One of the bandits then stabs him in the back, only to hit his armor he secretly wears under his apron. The cook/fighter then takes the wizard, and uses him as an improvised blunt weapon, knocking two of the bandits out at once and knocking the others away. This finally causes them to back off and leave. However, the wizard, upon getting healed via some herbs and poultices, looks around and notices his spellbook is nowhere to be found. This fight scene took maybe 10-15 minutes to play out, and the mechanics caused me to think like the characters in the moment, rather than like an armchair tactician. It was incredible.

[@dm4life579]

Heavy rules systems messed up people's minds when it comes to trying a new system. "I don't want to learn a new game" or "I can't afford to sit for hours learning new rules." Even new OSR games can be played in a manner of minutes. Too many rules and big books don't mean better games.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Agreed, the barrier to entry isn't nearly as high as people think

[@jaimerivera2382]

I've found that, as I grow older, I prefer simpler games with clever rules, rather than massive games with comprehensive rules. We're here to tell a story and have some fun, not play a war game.

[@Ornithopter470]

I don't think I've encountered a single system where sitting down without having read the rules, I could be running a game in minutes that did not end up in an absolute morass as the table tried to pick through the rules to make sense of how it works. From what I've seen, Pbta games seem to usually solve this by disregarding mechanical character creation entirely, in favor of a pre-genned character, called a playbook. Which does work, because suddenly the mechanical actions of the players drop to near zero, and everything comes from the improv that role playing is.

[@SkittleBombs]

I think professors dungeon craft yolo style initiative sound fun but chaotic and relies heavy on the GM being skilled . Basically everyone announces their attack as a group, then he get them all to roll their hits all at once against the monsters and then uses the result to decide the fiction he narrates. This means they players can one hit all the enemies as a group like an action movie and the monster might get their hits in the middle where the gm sees fit

[@tabletopsandbox]

This reminds me of the declare/resolve style of initiative that Cogent uses. It's similar, but a little more structured. The best initiative gets to hear everyone else's declarations for what they want to do first, then they get to resolve their declared action first in the second phase of a round. It definitely does prefer a skilled GM

[@artistpoet5253]

Dungeon World sounds a lot like Ironsworn...or maybe Ironsworn sounds a lot like Dungeon World. The thing with D&D is that it's a miniatures combat game with RPG aspects and not even really RPG rules. Of course, you can abstract the combat in 'theater of the mind' but you still need to track where players are for things like back stab, flanking and so on. It gets way too crunchy. I mean, Warhammer 40,000 IS a miniatures combat game and even it has less crunch and better turn flow.

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

Dungeon World is a PbtA game. It follows the same general structure. Ironsworn is not a PbtA, but it's similar in several aspects hehe

[@TheNanoNinja]

I do agree with the HP problem in D&D. As a player character levels up and gets more HP, the enemy "Level up" and do more damage. I'm playing D&D 5e as a Level 15 Champion Fighter AC19. last session, I got shot by 2 Drow Assassins with 2 attacks each using poisoned crossbow bolts. I was downed in the second round. 40% chance of a Hit x 4 at 1d8+3 Piercing + 7d6 Poison (1/2 on a CON Save DC 15) 30% Chance of failure. Based on Average damage, 4 hits on 4 failed saves is 124 HP damage. In 2 rounds, its easy to get 4 hits and 2 failed saves.

[@DOU6LEJAY]

I created a tabletop roleplaying game. It's called cards and cobolds. It's basically a dungeon crawler roleplaying game where you play cards to perform physical and verbal actions in gameplay. The dungeon master determines everything, and the game carries the lack of dice. Instead of dice, you have playing cards. The playing cards are known as action cards. You play one card per action. The dungeon master decides who's turn it is, and the gameplay is fluid and flexible. There's a mode called solo play where you can use ai and chat gpt to write campaigns for you. Multiplayer is where you can play with others and the dm is the referee. This game takes place in multiple fantasy worlds. It is a very enjoyable game to play. The dm also determines whether your character lives or dies. The lack of hit points and the dm determining whether your character lives or dies is an excellent hp system to make the game more realistic. You can play as a cleric, a sorcerer, a bard, and etc. The world of the game is huge.

[@didjargo]

I rather like the idea of no attack rolls. So often, in D&D combat, you sit there waiting for your turn to come around. You declare, "I'm going to swing my sword at this goblin," fail, then say, "I missed. That's my turn," and go back to waiting.

[@tobiaslundqvist3209]

Battles become drawn out when DMs are afraid to challenge the players. If there are stakes and risk of death things will both move and feel faster.

[@CScott-wh5yk]

I really wish Adam Koebel would come back from the void with a premium digest-sized hardcover DW offering.

[@Qv3z]

Same, such a shame! Check out daggerheart though

[@LeMayJoseph]

I don’t. I want someone else to do it. Also, it came out as a premium hardcover digest in the KS

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

@@LeMayJoseph I published a RPG that started as a hack of Dungeon World here in Brasil and I'll try to release it in english next year hehe

[@CScott-wh5yk]

I like my games 80/20 RP/Tactics. Gotta play Dungeon World one of these days. It’s been a joy to read.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Yeah DW is ideal for about that mix

[@ToddPutnam]

The group I DM for played 5E for years, however after just a single one shot session of Shadowdark, they all voted to switch systems - mid campaign. It's faster combat and character creation, plus the combat is actually dangerous. Everyone should play whatever system they enjoy, but for us, we jumped to SD and we aren't looking back. I don't care what they do with One D&D / 5.5E.

[@zaqsiefert5508]

I personally enjoy the combat of DnD 5e for the most part, although after I've played the game for years I get bored with the extended combat sessions. There are only so many things you can specifically do according to the rules that it can feel creatively limiting at times.

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

I love PbtA games. I'm a game designer, and the first RPG I released started as a Dungeon World hack hehe

[@raff3486]

I agree, it gets boring. Especially whenever players don't think of their moves beforehand. As someone who has a love/hate relationship with 5e, I've tried other systems and as such im going to try running pf2e to see whether its easier to run, even if its rules heavy. I'd love to find a game somewhere between pf2e and old school... If dungeonworld fits this description, I shall look more into it.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I would highly recommend checking Dungeon World out, but I do think it's in a different category than PF, old school, and even 5e. It has a lot of similarities to D&D at least superficially, but the way it's played is very different. It might be just what you're looking for though!

[@dkbibi]

The biggest challenge with DW is the concept of traditional rpg ingrained in your brain. Forget anything you know and then read the book as if it were your first ttrpg book. I highly suggest The Dungeon World Guide pdf that explains how pbta games are played. Of course there are many good actually plays in podcast and video. Check for Discern realities podcast and Spout Lore (although that one is more improv but man is it good still).

[@Ornithopter470]

Try Worlds without number.

[@lucio8349]

Thank you so much for this video I love dungeon world it's so fun, my only problem is that my friends are not to fond of it

[@Jason-sj7xi]

Cannot agree more!!! Dungeon world also allows for more cinematic experiences where crazy gonzo crap happens. 10x more fun! Also the hit point progression helps defeat the wild swingy low level combat and the nigh invincible high level PCs

[@travman228]

Where can i find a good source for monsters or a bestiary for DW? Love your vids

[@tabletopsandbox]

Dungeon World itself has a pretty extensive bestiary included. Using that for inspiration and know-how, I made my own monsters after that. It's very simple and there are instructions on monster creation included

[@travman228]

@@tabletopsandbox i downloaded the solo rules, so i will go back and grab the full version. Great to know that monster creation is easy. Thanks Mr Perfect Opinion

[@THEFabianValenzuela]

What is ur favorite DW class?

[@tabletopsandbox]

Probably paladin, the boon mechanic is so cool and on in a really fun way

[@cobinizer]

I went to Dungeon World once. Someone had a pet cat. That cat killed everything on the planet. If only there were higher numbers of hit points....

[@josephwilliams9208]

Have you ever played dnd gold box games on steam. That type of game is a lot simpler then dnd 5e because there is no dice rolling. The closer a system can come to simplified the better. My hard experience is, that 1 battle alone in dnd 5e could take between 45 min. to an hour. Yes, it could easily take that long because of variables like splitting up the party, and unfun fights like the black pudding only a wizard or sorcerer could easily take on. Sometimes in dnd, certain players even announce every item that they want to buy from the merchant. That could take another 45 min. easy. The main flaw is that your spells could usually do a far better job than the common equipment that you could buy. Half the time you're not going to need things like ladder when there's featherfall, or a flying spell. Half the weapons that you could choose to buy don't stand out much more than either does more damage, is one turn, or is light and gives a bonus action. There is no point in needing to buy cheap or expensive spell components in dnd, when putting spells together is complicated enough for new players. Brand new players very often get blamed by their dm for not knowing exactly how their character works, when they don't know where to look for things like their domain spell list+ plus spells that your character gets added to from their race. It takes some practice looking in (wikidot) to know where everything is. The players handbook would have a lot of information but isn't fully up to date on the new spells that recently came out. Most players like me would rather stick to pc gaming if not for the social part of the game.

[@edgelord0923]

this video made me realize how much i honestly dislike dnd combat...

[@tabletopsandbox]

It is my calling to awaken the complacent masses

[@oKingLexx]

Turning armor class into a skill check on the player greatly speeds up my combat. The DM doesn't roll to hit the players, the players roll to avoid getting hit. UPDATE: THROW MY IDEA IN THE TRASH AND PLAY DUNGEON WORLD.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I like making this more player facing, though I'm surprised that it speeds up combat so much. Recently I've been leaving towards players subtracting their armor rating from incoming damage as my favorite armor mechanic

[@oKingLexx]

@@tabletopsandbox YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT DUNGEON WORLD. I BOUGHT THE BOOK AND RAN IT FOR A ONE-SHOT. TOTALLY WON MY PLAYERS OVER AND COMBAT WAS HEAVENLY. THANKS!

[@tabletopsandbox]

I'm glad you've seen the light, I love PBTA games, especially Blades in the Dark, which I've been running a lot of recently

[@oKingLexx]

@@tabletopsandbox I gotta agree. I am in love with the PBTA system.

[@lucaricciardi8253]

If it takes more than 10 minutes to resolve a fight, I'm out of the game

[@tabletopsandbox]

I love action movies, and I think combat is fun, but I've learned that I appreciate combat that is quick, brutal, and meaningful much more than long drawn out battles of attrition.

[@newmadiba]

I prefer turn based combat this sounds chaotic and stressful

[@tabletopsandbox]

I will say it requires a group with a solid foundation of respect and being willing to let others have the spotlight

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

It's not as choatic as it seems. Specially once you get used to it. It's up to the GM to aim the spotlight, giving everybody equal oportunities to shine, and ocasionally given a little more "scream time" to some one because it's more relevant to the story right now.

[@AndrusPr8]

Sure. Make it last 1 or 1.5 rounds and you'd be closer to a Dungeon World combat.