Fixing The "Negative" Phase Effects Of Multiband Processing (Fixing OTT)

Рет қаралды 7,928

4 ай бұрын

Пікірлер: 81

@niklassilen4313 4 ай бұрын

A little correction: Your Allpass fix using EQuilibrium does in fact make it sort of Linear Phase and it's _NEVER_ a free lunch. You are indeed introducing pre-ring simply by reversing the polarity of the AllPass filter in EQuilibrium. The very fact that you set it to free-phase mode also introduces latency to the plugin, a lot of it. At it's smallest setting of 1024 window size, you have an additional 512samples of latency at 48kHz.. then it doubles from there depending on the window size. The bigger the window size the tighter the impulse response is. So unfortunately, like many things in life, nothing here is "free". What you are essentially doing is creating a way to linear phase optimize OTT.

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

Oh interesting! I knew about the latency but thought this is different to linear phase because I get far less pre-ring, but perhaps it’s still there I just didn’t measure that low

@DaveChips 4 ай бұрын

Oh man how i love learning. Could i kindly ask for a bit of explanation of buffer sizes in EQ? For example Ozone has buffer size selection wich are indepented of my native DAW setting. So few of my questions are: 1. In more simplistic terms... changing bufer size from 1024 to lets say 256 (im my general understanding, smaller size is faster response, as at least thats how it works in DAW, but cost is extra CPU) Am i on the right track here,or on the total opossite,larger size gets more "precise" on the EQ setting? 2. Example: If i set EQ bufer size at 256, and my project native is 512. Does it actully scale/multiply up or down if i change my project from 512 to 1024 to allow my CPU some extra headroom? Or is it set in stone as 256 in EQ? Any extra bit of light and technical knowledge is very appriciated guys! :) TBH at this point i should have read the manual (since im uing it from V5) xD

@niklassilen4313 4 ай бұрын

@@DaveChipsIn DMG Audio Equilibrium the size parameter is simply the "window size" or "kernel size" so what I assume it does is that it chooses the block size of the FIR filter and how long it has to operate it. This will, put simply, directly affect the tightness of the transient response, aka filter ringing. It's true for both linear phase responses as well as minimum phase modes. The larger the kernel size is set the shorter time the filter will be ringing. I have no idea how or why this is the case or how it works technically, I just know what it does. You can easily check this with any typical transient material like a kick drum. Typically the filters ring longer the sharper they are and the lower in frequency they are. So if you only operate at high frequencies then you can get away with shorter sizes but if you do a narrow cut at very low frequencies and want to avoid as much ringing as possible you should increase the size of the kernel. Naturally this kernel size directly correlates to latency because linear phase operations always work in the time domain, so basically it filters, reverses the audio and filters again, then reverses it back. You can even create your own linear phase filters of any normal minimum phase plugin. Simply render your audio with filter applied. Then reverse that rendered audio so that it plays backwards, then use the exact same filter settings and render again. Then finally reverse this rendered audio back to normal. Voila, you've created a linear phase filter. :)

@astrobearmusic1977 4 ай бұрын

@@niklassilen4313do you know if it is necessary to use an FIR filter to get the reverse phase that is used in the video? An IIR allpass filter would be causal so there would be no/negligible pre-ringing - and perhaps this is why Dash didn’t observe latency in his measurements. But I only know how to make an allpass for a simple bi-quad with “normal” phase shift so I can’t say if it is even possible to do the reverse phase with a bi-quad or any other type of IIR filter. On the other hand, it is somewhat easier to get an FIR filter to have the phase response you want because it’s parameters are directly derived from the Fourier domain - so I wouldn’t be surprised if you are correct and these flexible EQ plugins rely on FIR. And the latency Dash mentions also would support the argument that it is FIR. Idk, I don’t have the plug-in myself so I am just chiming in from the sidelines 😁

@niklassilen4313 4 ай бұрын

@@astrobearmusic1977Yes DMG Audio EQuilibrium is using FIR in it's linear phase and "free phase" modes. It's stated that way explicitly in the manual. You can even use FIR filters for minimum phase filters and also force them to be zero latency.. but naturally in this mode you have no control over the phase. It also has a very in depth IIR mode with several extra options but of course again you can't control the phase in this mode. And no, if you use a normal IIR Allpass.. then if you reverse the audio, it will just cancel itself out, aka linear phase, aka non-existent in the case of an All Pass. It would be like cancelling out a Linear Phase EQ with the opposite copy of itself.. that cancels out all ringing and the EQ itself. :)

@CypiXmusic 4 ай бұрын

Big thumbs up! Love it whenever you go real technical with these videos!

@jacktherip7750 4 ай бұрын

love this kind of technical underground tips

@jethrobrewin 4 ай бұрын

Really appreciate showing the context linear eq in a full mix!

@philpetrocelli5191 4 ай бұрын

This is so good. Really eye-opening, really interesting from a problem solving perspective. Thanks for this!

@degstep9968 4 ай бұрын

Great examples! Always a pleasure to watch

@gerardfabisch 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for sharing. Hope this gets implemented in an OTT plugin in the near future.

@liam6949 4 ай бұрын

I’m totally down for more technical videos! Thanks!

@speckles9251 4 ай бұрын

Good ! Well explained, for such a complex topic. I refrained from telling about it to my date. However, the fix cuts 245,- units out of your account. So the date will have to settle with a walk.

@andrwwaugh 3 ай бұрын

Clever!

@astrobearmusic1977 4 ай бұрын

Nice tutorial! I had been wondering if there was some way to correct for this phase shift and you made a wonderful explanation. I think the mixing/mastering concerns are even more important than just the “audible” example you mentioned. I’ve also done some experiments on phase-coherency and crest-factor, and saws/squares are optimal on that their phase coherency gives you the most loudness for a certain headroom. It pretty much boils down to those sharp peaks introduced by phase rotation that take up extra headroom but don’t give any extra loudness. It can be several DB of loudness, and even clipping these peaks does not fully recover the crest factor.

@CRayBeats 4 ай бұрын

You could use control surface and link the bands of both to a macro knob and just only adjust the macros.

@FlagAudio 4 ай бұрын

I can almost bet money on that "filter stages" basically means the stacking that you did earlier. The effect of one all-pass-filter is not very audible, so stacking that is a great way of getting intense effects.

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

Yes it is, I did mention that

@woopeedyscoop1858 4 ай бұрын

smart stuff

@callmesleeper 4 ай бұрын

I dont know if it's a linear thing, but opening up the XFer OTT "Generic Editor" in Cubase allows access to the Clean X-Over mode to be turned on/off. (Steve Duda added this option) I know Logic also allows this "generic editor mode". But how does people using other DAWs access this without openeing up all automation lanes for the plugin? 😅

@untoldstories001 4 ай бұрын

yo critical information, helpful in deciphering the element being discussed. hey dash i checked ur tracks, do u play in festivals ?

@mignax6888 4 ай бұрын

His rme soundcard is a gem, without the db25 multipair connector it would be perfect

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

I use the ufx2, so no db25 this is just the controller 😁

@Nebvla 4 ай бұрын

Ott is now my disperser And dioxer

@DaveChips 4 ай бұрын

Whenever OTT video is out... i have to rewatch it few times xD And in all fairness... i never thought i would actually think about another EQ, but... Something in that manual phase adjustment seems awfully inviting. Ozone has something similiar in the toolbox but this EQuilibrium is really inviting and visual...

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

DMg audio is by far the best developer imho, they make super high-level plugins but also have good guis. This EQ is the best imho

@DaveChips 4 ай бұрын

@@DashGlitch I have downloaded just yesterday demos of EQ and Tracklimit (im huge sucker for Clipers n limiters) and tbh i feel like over last 10-15 yrs i got so integrated with Izotope,Melda and Fabfilter... that i have missed some gems like DMGaudio,Kirchoff,even sonible. TDR also tickled me slightly,but i havent used it yet. Had to get Elevate bundle though... best clipper ever! xD I always like to keep my VST list compact as possible. But lately Kive,Softube and UA freebies had nudged that part of my curiosity and willpower... So list might get expanded.

@vnz421 4 ай бұрын

excelent :alien:

@frequency_sequencer 3 ай бұрын

Hi Dash... I have been making some music at 110 BPM these days... I love the Kampfer kick packs but they don't sound great at that BPM.... How would you approach making dub technoish kicks with very less transient.... Something which is easier to push into a limiter.... Kind of like above and beyond ish ?

@morgan0 4 ай бұрын

is that doing reverse phase allpasses with fir filters? if it’s iir i’m suuuuper interested because i tried to do that and couldn’t figure it out

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

Correct

@tothefinlandstation 4 күн бұрын

A frequency that's -170 degrees shifted and one that's +170 degrees shifted are only 20 degress different than each other!

@DashGlitch 4 күн бұрын

It's not shifted in degrees, the phase correlation is shifted in amplitude ;)

@Nebvla 4 ай бұрын

I use multiple otts so my phase is definitely positive 😱

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

It doesn’t invert each time, it adds more phase rotations. More OTTs means more negative effects so to speak

@Nebvla 4 ай бұрын

@@DashGlitch I was kinda joking but :)

@JohnSmith-pn2vl 4 ай бұрын

steve duda should see this and include it natively in OTT pro ?

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

I think consumers want low latency more than quality tbh, not many plugins do FIR filters because of this, it’s high-level stuff

@GizzyDillespee 4 ай бұрын

My favorite part is from 7:28

@DawnHub666 4 ай бұрын

OTT actually has a clean mode u can access on the back or hidden settings.

@musicforthemind3421 4 ай бұрын

More details please

@DawnHub666 4 ай бұрын

@@musicforthemind3421 u Switch to generic editor instead of plugin editor . and there is a clean crossover button

@DawnHub666 4 ай бұрын

All this drama is really for nothing. Its always been there./ And its turned off by default. coz phase shift from the crossovers is the whole point of the preset that is OTT

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

It’s not really drama, just interesting findings, use it or don’t kinda stuff. Anyway AFAIK the clean mode is just linear-phase filters which have a different downside as I explained in the video

@DawnHub666 4 ай бұрын

@@musicforthemind3421 open up generic editor and there is a clean crossover button.

@lawinter1949 4 ай бұрын

Is this track possilbe with other plugins besides Equilibrium?

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

check out Psyphaz by FX23 or MFreeformPhase by Melda, neither are as easy but good alternatives

@lawinter1949 4 ай бұрын

@@DashGlitch can you show in a video how to do it in the Mfreeformphase? I feel like that would super help your viewer as it is free. I have it and will try it as well. I went full melda last year and while the learning curve is steep I love what the can do.

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

you just need to draw the correct shape with MfreeformPhase, all the theory is here in the video. it was a huge PITA and took ages so I gave up, and hencewhy I don't recommend it in the video

@glyph6757 4 ай бұрын

Are there any other plugins or tools that can fix this, or do you absolutely have to use EQuilibrium?

@DaveChips 4 ай бұрын

Fabfilter Volcano has all pass too... Basically any Allpass filter will work. Could make it work with reaper EQ as well

@olbap4683 4 ай бұрын

@@DaveChips not sure you can change the phase flip on your allpasses in volcano

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

you can try with mFreeformPhase by Melda but drawing the shape in that GUI is a nightmare, so I gave up

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

@olbap4683 this is correct, you can't do this with any all-pass, only FIR free phase filters

@DaveChips 4 ай бұрын

@@DashGlitch ahh got it, I rushed throught the video while I was at work. Yeah completely makes sense for FIR filter. I was too fast on the trigger and too low on my break time 😅⌚ I'm just thinking about options, but in all honesty... Not many all pass filter plugins come to my mind overall. Feel like they might be underrepresented in audio plugin world, or I'm just not capable to find them.

@joechapman8208 4 ай бұрын

I did this by buying OxyOTT, but your method is certainly more economical

@zebraforceone 4 ай бұрын

I didn't see you adjust Vital - the initial patch has phase randomization. I'm just jumping in at 4:47 here so not on how we fix this phase inversion, but the difference in sounds there once you have many instances of Vital is almost certainly because of it's phase randomization being at 100%.

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

I think you are way misunderstanding the topic. This isn't about Phase start position of the oscillator. It's about the phase rotations which occur through multiband, I guess you could explain it almost like each frequency has it's own random phase. Regardless of the vital setting.

@zebraforceone 4 ай бұрын

@DashGlitch I get that but pointing out the audible difference in presses without turning off phase randomisation seems moot. I may well have misunderstood that too though. Really interesting video btw

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

Not necessarily, the differences are not in the phase randomization of the start-point of the sound. They're actually tonally apparent. It's a distortion of the overall phase per frequency, while the phase randomization in the synth keeps the shape/tone in tact still. Try vital's phase disperse spectral warp mode, that's closer to the effect - a different phase for each harmonic.

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

in short: when you random phase in vital it doesn't change the waveform, only where the waveform's zero-point is. Multiband processing actually changes the waveform, and this is a technique to reverse the change back to the original shape.

@Shane-zo4mg 4 ай бұрын

Holy shit, the fixed OTT track is 100 times better. My jaw dropped when you soloed it

@nay-nay30no40 4 ай бұрын

kzbin.info/www/bejne/gJmag6Sleq2Xa68si=a5YU2Dn7WOciV8yy Does this work?

@DashGlitch 4 ай бұрын

Most likely but Ableton only

@No.0.o.0 4 ай бұрын

I really don't like OTT's high end artifacts allll the time, love what it does to lows and mids butttt.... it seems silly to then slap a lowpass/shelf after an OTT and then add other high frequencies from somewhere else. Great video!

@mafoomusic8126 4 ай бұрын

You can remove the compression on the high band to help reduce artifacts