DDR

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Күн бұрын

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@Melissanoma 2 ай бұрын

Now hey hold on a sec, Dave! I know this other interaction where the game *does* take some continuous effect into account when it's deciding whether to apply a replacement effect

@LawrenceMilesHasMovedToBluesky 2 ай бұрын

Giada's like, "I draw the line at Bears."

@ridiculous_fox 2 ай бұрын

CR 614.12. The rule that may be responsible for more confusion among experienced judges than any other.

@TheSpiritombsableye 2 ай бұрын

This makes intuitive sense. It's saddening that this wasn't a rule for a while.

@Tarrandus 2 ай бұрын

Huh, got this one wrong. I knew how the youthful valkyrie worked, but I definitely assumed Giada would work the same.

@Patashu 2 ай бұрын

got this one wrong too, this is definitely the 'mathiest' feeling one in a while

@TheCommunistGamerTV 2 ай бұрын

Yeeeeep. Got it. "Enters with" is a replacement effect, so it looks at the state before it enters. Great question.

@jerodast Ай бұрын

So, my issue, and reason I didn't get it, is that "Enters with" is a replacement effect, so it changes the way in which it will enter...therefore it should work the other way :P Specifically, Valkyrie's Call says the creature returns "with" the counter, exactly like Giada does. So we have two potential replacement effects. And part of the first effect (Valkyrie) is that it enters as an Angel. And we all know that once you apply a replacement effect, you re-check the resulting events to see if any other replacement effects can apply. So then Giada should apply. Clearly :P

@jerodast Ай бұрын

Obviously it doesn't actually work my way, and the CR rule cited makes that clear. But I'd find the intuition much better and not needing a special CR rule (and arbitrary list to distinguish between which effects do or don't get taken into account when you apply replacements), if entering a zone "with" some effect simply always meant "it's a replacement effect". Then you just apply replacement effect rules. I hear the objections, "but how can Valkyrie's Call replace its own action with a different action", and I say "why shouldn't a card that can replace your Bears with Angel Bears be able to replace its own action with a different action"!

@jerodast Ай бұрын

Basically I want the "Put [thing] into [zone] {with counters}. {It's a [whatever].}" template handling to be like "Copy [thing] {except it's [whatever]}." template handling. "Except" makes [whatever] part of the copy effect, nothing more, nothing less. Valkyrie should have an Angel entering the battlefield, nothing more, nothing less.

@HakureiIllusion 2 ай бұрын

Now hey hold on a Dave, sec! I know this other game where the interaction does take some continuous account into effect when it's deciding whether to effect a replacement apply

@damnerd 2 ай бұрын

I think this is a really unintuitive interaction, and having both of the parts in the same set should be an opportunity for wotc to fix that.

@PatrickLiu-cu3is 2 ай бұрын

This is where I draw the line.... I cannot intuit this distinction for the life of me

@LazarusIsBackBaby 2 ай бұрын

Imagine that "on the battlefield" = "inside a room." Valkyrie's Call and Youthful Valkyrie check for their conditions after a creature enters the room, so they both apply. Giada checks riiiight *as* the creature is crossing the threshold. If you had one foot through a door, you wouldn't say you were "inside the room." In Dave's examples, the Clone and the Automaton showed up to enter the room already wearing their angel costumes, so Giada is like "what up homies, enjoy your counters." But in the case of Valkyrie's Call, Giada sees a bear going through the door and is like "who tf are you."

@Dnallohes 2 ай бұрын

I agree it’s not intuitive. It’s a hard thing to grok. The continuous effect generating the type change will apply the entire time the grizzly bears is in play, but it is created simultaneously to it entering play. For it to work intuitively, valkyries call would need something like “Creatures returned from the graveyard with this card are angels in addition to their other types” on it. This would be a pre-existing continuous effect that a replacement effect could see and apply before the affected permanent enters. Instead, it generates a continuous effect that will be attached to the grizzly bears, but crucially is not yet on it before it enters.

@matthewgagnon9426 2 ай бұрын

One's a replacement effect and one is a triggered ability. The Youthful Valk is already on the battlefield, the Bear was not an Angel at the exact moment it entered, so it doesn't get the counters.

@kz1g 2 ай бұрын

@@Dnallohes Or change Giada's ability to be a triggered ability, I suppose?

@benjaminbuchan6497 2 ай бұрын

Replacement effects apply before the event happens. If they didn't have special permissions from 614.12 they wouldn't be able to take any continuous effects into consideration at all. Now because that rule does exist, replacement effects and triggered abilities looking for the same kind of permanent entering the battlefield will usually both work in the same situations. However, that rule lists exactly what kinds of continuous effects are taken into account, and Valkyrie's Call making Grizzly Bears an angel does not fit any of them.

@Trogdorbad 2 ай бұрын

Thanks for this Dave - I submitted this as a question as well after the Call and Youthful interaction simply didn't happen on Arena and was immediately confused. Glad to know it works as expected, as I wanted to play those two and Infernal Vessel in the same deck at some point.

@cool_scatter 2 ай бұрын

Is this an oversight in 614.12? Would updating it so the effect from Valkyrie's Call works like the others break anything else?

@DrAngryMongoose 2 ай бұрын

Like... I get it, but I'll never remember this interaction. It's crazy all of these cards are in what is essentially a core set!

@HeavyMetalMouse Ай бұрын

So... essentially, it's because the effect that makes it an Angel is part of the same Triggered Ability resolution that 'has not yet happened', and not an already in place continuous effect that would be considered for whether it modifies the Bear-Enters-Event. It's a weird little corner-case, for sure, but I do think I see how best to explain why it doesn't work like we'd want it to.

@DrSlaughterRex1 2 ай бұрын

Funny that you made this video right when I was putting together an angel deck led by Shilgengar lol

@tjdragon7993 19 күн бұрын

This is one of those rules that's simultaneously silly yet also entirely logical and understandable. I wonder if updating the rules to make this more intuitive would break anything.

@R0boam 2 ай бұрын

That was really an unexpected *call*. A real *font* of confusion.

@TheSpiritombsableye 2 ай бұрын

Oh, it corresponds very well. 0:52

@cateranoverlord8116 Ай бұрын

Yup got this one, the grizzly bears is not an angel until it enters. Thus Giada does not see it as an angel attempting to ETB.

@alwillcox 2 ай бұрын

Now hey hold on a sec, Dave! I know this other interaction which helps the algorithm!

@EverianKalim 2 ай бұрын

oh this is an awkward interaction, I saw someone at a pre-release with the Giada/Call and was making huge angels with it :/

@enrikolankau3702 18 күн бұрын

That should aöso mean that Angels you return with "Nim Deathmantle" should get the counters from Giada.

@mervius Ай бұрын

Jess has said this is an oversight that they'd look into. He said he thinks it should apply. I would post a link but youtube doesn't like links. He agrees that the current wording does work this way, though. So the video is still correct until(if) it's changed.

@TheGrifcannon22 2 ай бұрын

This was definitely a trickier one.

@voltcorp Ай бұрын

can someone explain why Valkyrie's Call has to be templated like that? Why can't it say "(...) under its owner's control. it enters with a +1+1 counter on it and as an Angel (...)". My understanding it that it would work more intuitively (triggering Giada) and I don't see why it's necessary to have both types of templating. It's not like it opens some amazing design space.

@Giga-lemesh 2 ай бұрын

Super interesting!!

@Roll-Penut Ай бұрын

So if this is the case. Why does a clone enter with the counters from giada (posting this for algorithm)

@tinokerkhof 19 күн бұрын

Arena does NOT have Youthful Valkyrie trigger with returning creatures with Valkyrie's Call. Is this a bug?

@SLatios 2 ай бұрын

If you control Ashes of the Fallen that named angel, will Valkyrie's Call trigger and if so, would Giada's effect apply? What about another effect that returned the Bears from the grave?

@seandun7083 2 ай бұрын

I don't believe Ashes of the Fallen would work since it doesn't apply on the battlefield, but Xenograft should since it exists before the bears comes back.

@flaetsbnort 2 ай бұрын

I found this super confusing. Would Valkyrie's Call let Giada's ability trigger if it was written in a single sentence?

@gatherer818 2 ай бұрын

It would still be becoming an Angel simultaneously with entering the battlefield, not before. To make it work, you'd have to flip the wording: "when a non-Angel creature you control dies, it becomes an Angel, then is returned to the battlefield under your control." It's hella clunky, too. I think the best fix would be to make Giada's ability a trigger instead of a replacement effect - it'd be slightly less powerful but would work with more kinds of type-setting effects and also be somewhat more interactable.

@chrisbrannigan6210 Ай бұрын

I was waiting for you to use the word dependencies somewhere. This specific card interaction is silly and counterintuitive. Players everywhere are going to be putting counters from Giada's ability onto Bears who die and return with Valk's call.

@KomradeKrisis1701 2 ай бұрын

3:53 sorry Dave, but I'm gonna have to call a rule violation on your pronunciation of "automaton" /jk

@oia 2 ай бұрын

But what about the interaction of… oh ok I’ll still finish this post 😅

@WangerZ3291 2 ай бұрын

I believe conspiracy and valkyrie's call would be a non-bo if both were in effect

@seanheath4492 2 ай бұрын

Was right about Youthful Valkyrie, but wrong about Giada.

@eric.ingram 2 ай бұрын

False. I was going to call you Judge Dave in my comment about replacement effects!

@RibusPQR 2 ай бұрын

Good thing nobody would build a constructed deck with Giada and Valkyrie's Call together. Unless they were going for "Angel Art Kindred"

@Vex-MTG 2 ай бұрын

It could have actually been really fun though. Build a deck with lots of self sacrifice creatures, who then come back as giant angels. Sadly, it isn't meant to be

@ceulgai2817 2 ай бұрын

*typal

@AlmostM 2 ай бұрын

Wow that is really unintuitive. So yes, an angel entered the battlefield, but the creature did not enter as an angel.