Death of a Game: Mortal Online

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#DOAG . Death of a Game is a series dedicated to uncovering the mysteries surrounding the death of a game or company. nerdSlayer defines the term "death" in the context of the show as either... 1. Literally dead. 2. Had a mass exodus of players and never recovered (expectations etc). 3. The company ceased to exist. We follow a timeline of events, to uncover clues concerning why a game or company doesn't do well, and attempt to put it all together at the end for a deduction explaining how or why the game failed based on the evidence gathered.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Thanks again to Khimyra for sponsoring this video. You can shop Khimyra products at khimyra.com and use the code "nerdslayer" to get 10% off.

[@thembung]

Sir can u also do death of game for hero of newerth please?? I love that game and it a tragedy the game is shutting on the month of June and thank for giving us amazing content as always thank you

[@charlestrudel8308]

oh, 100 000 copies, thats more like it.

[@amirhossein1817]

Hey there dude, can you do death of a game for quantom league? Trust me they earned it

[@markwalker3510]

just wanted to say, your content is super cool, and educational, and i really enjoy it

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Rookie mistake: Shoulda called it Immortal Online.

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

It feels like that scene from office space with the printer, except the printer is bad games and I've passed nerdslayer the baseball bat.

[@matejvana3015]

Love you both, guys... Collab when? :)

[@stonefree7973]

@@matejvana3015 Ikr we need it :)

[@cmdraftbrn]

pcloadletter, wtf is that!

[@MajinStrach]

HAHAHAHHA came here after seeing your oneon Mortal, I still kinda wana try MO

[@IronAgeGamer]

Is it sad that the first thing i thought of when i saw this video was "hey its that game Moist Man talked about"

[@Slop_Dogg]

I remember thinking this game would be the future of MMOs when I was in high school, that it’d really change the entire landscape of the genre itself. While that didn’t really happen, it did give me some fun memories.

[@Winter420]

come try mo2 its better!

[@3Feathers]

@@Winter420 If the servers have room for you to log in and don't shit themselves.

[@MetalGamer666]

@@3Feathers There are zero queues now if you play on an alternate server.

[@3Feathers]

@@MetalGamer666 Hows the lag for NA players? It was pretty unplayable for a while

[@MetalGamer666]

@@3Feathers I can't comment on that as I'm not from America.

[@kingscrump]

Mortal Online 2 kind of slaps. It had a rocky launch but it is pretty fun regardless. Honestly the full-loot isn’t even that bad. You just store the stuff you don’t want to lose before venturing out into the world. I never felt defeated like I have in Tarkov. However, I love Tarkov so maybe I’m just a masochistic maniac.

[@nathandingy]

While it suffers from alot of the same issues as the first MO it seems they are fixing things much faster

[@Hedgeknight420]

It’s getting way better now . The past 3 months of updates brought it from negative to positive on steam reviews .

[@jaredmiller3564]

Im scared to play it again because it sucked so bad when it came out

[@Joutube_is_trash]

"Free for all, full loot, pvp mmorpg" Well case solved.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Except that's not even the games biggest issues, sorry that PvP makes you emotional I guess.

[@Joutube_is_trash]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss Lol not bothered by it personally, just stating that it is a large deterrent in the genre.

[@bnjxh787l]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss bro it aint that personal

[@Dirk_Diggler92]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss dont we all get emotional while playing PvP or games in general?

[@thesheeepjd]

@@Dirk_Diggler92 Seems like nerdSlayer gets more emotional when someone doesn't...

[@pawn4129]

Quite an obvious case, my dear detectives: Every mortal finds an end eventually,.

[@Marinealver]

Death of Mortals

[@asimplewizard]

Underrated comment.

[@witchdoctorteepo]

Man, this game was trying to be too much, too hardcore, much too early. Unreal 3 can only do so much and so the systems in the game totally took a big back seat. I think this game and the second one would have benefited greatly by separated servers because full loot pvp mmos are extremely niche. Besides, I don't know many people at all who are okay with someone continuously getting ganked when trying to do quest. On another note, the work you do is inspiring nerdSlayer! I didn't even know that the first game was on unreal 3! You learn someone new everyday, I guess! Cheers!

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Great point, and that's far more nuanced than just "pvp = dead game"

[@witchdoctorteepo]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss Absolutely!

[@garpten7772]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss is it though? That wasn’t nuanced at all, he made several completely false statements and has no idea how the game worked if you think it’s just a gank simulator. Comments from people who have no clue about the game or community but act as if they do are incredibly idiotic and give way to this PvP game bad mentality.

[@Biouke]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss It's a pacing and agency problem. The players must have a safe space where they can learn and experiment, and then chose willingly to put their skills and knowledge on the test for better rewards. Imagine EVE but there's no hi-sec : Not going to work. I've played DAoC, EVE, Wakfu and Albion, all have open PvP in some way and have a somewhat healthy player base, the common point is that you know where and when you're at risk and can manage your risk-reward balance in some manner. If the risk of losing progress is constant and everywhere, hardcore PvP ceases to be thrilling and becomes dreadful. It's game design basics ultimately, if Uncharted started with a 2 hours cut-scene then made you solve all the puzzles in a row and ended with hours-long succession of cover-shooter instead of alternating between calm, tension and reflection, it would have been a flop.

[@colby1398]

@@garpten7772 Except, he was right. The game died.

[@almalone3282]

Always a good day when nerd slayer uploads

[@KingMalikKYH]

Factss

[@TheSpicyLeg]

Really? So if your mom, dad, spouse, or someone you loved died the same day as an upload, it would still be a good day?

[@almalone3282]

@@TheSpicyLeg There could be a draft for the Ukraine invasion right now and a nerdslayer upload would cheer me up

[@-pressxtostart-]

But also a sad day because a game has had to die 😭

[@TheSpicyLeg]

@@almalone3282 Errr. Maybe if you’re Russian or Ukrainian. In which case you’ve got bigger problems. Assuming you’re lllAmerican or European, I think you’re buying into the propaganda. Modern first world nations would only institute a draft if foreign soldiers were actually on their home soil. I’m a veteran, by the way.

[@IcyWingsLetsPlays]

The reason is: Nobody wants to play a game full of griefers.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Which is why it's the developers job to build proper systems to prevent such, just like we do in our society.

[@LordBattleSmurf]

Wrong

[@IcyWingsLetsPlays]

@@LordBattleSmurf Yeah... only them griefers themselves, true...

[@skarra365]

A note on the lore of the game world: The world of Nave is actually fascinatingly complex with tons of lore- it's just not in your face about it. The lore of the game is hidden within small snippets like item descriptions or remote locations within the world which had to be discovered and studied to understand, just like real life archeology. Like how the Sator dungeon was discovered to be an ancient Shinarian structure from a particular symbol found there which was only found at other Shinarian sites. Or that the Murnahas (the canonical MO name for Minotaurs) are genetically related to the Huergar and have rings on the back of their armour pieces, prompting the current working theory that they were once Huergar magically transformed and enslaved to protect the outside of the main entrance to Gal Barag from outside threat. There's also a high degree of linguistic complexity, with every culture's language being based on various real-life languages. For instance Old Tindremic is more Latin and Greek, and is more common south in the Meduli region nowadays, while modern Tindremic has more Italian and other Romance language inspirations mixed with it. There are also multiple pantheons of gods and myths, legends, philosophies, and ways of life for each culture. (Nave, the name of the planet, is a Tindremic mother goddess of life.) Part of the reason that MO seemed like it had no lore was because of the intention to keep this lore more subtle, so that, given the nature of a player interaction-centric game, players could easily make up their own lore without worrying too much about whether it fit or not. But the other reason was that, due to time and budget constraints, a lot of lore-related content just never got implemented, an unfortunately common problem for Starvault. The only reason that we know about this missing lore is from old forum posts (or more recent posts in the discord server) from Mats, the main lore and story writer for MO who came back for MO2. But even with as much as we know about the world of Nave there is still so much more we don't know. Secrets of this world which have been hinted at since the beginning of the game's life over a decade ago, that we know Mats has an answer to, but he won't tell us until we can discover them for ourselves on the other continents that haven't been added yet. So hopefully MO2 does well enough long-term that one day we'll be able to see them and finally uncover those secrets.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Lmfaoooo. Hope the game does well so someday they can finish it...lmaoooooo 😂😆😆

[@carlosdelsol76]

What a great timing! i've always wondered about this game specially since i've been watching a lot of content of mortal 2 over the last year!

[@soandsononame8750]

these games will continue to fail until someone figures out how to pull off full loot FFA pvp without scaring all the sheep away in the first month.

[@tbone9474]

I was wondering, would you consider a series of "life of a game", where you get into what an MMO did right to keep its audience

[@tbone9474]

@Storm Davis ?

[@toastertarts2990]

@@tbone9474 They're saying you should make that series

[@tbone9474]

@@toastertarts2990 I'm a family man with a 100% job. Plus no talent or inclination. He'd do a better job

[@toastertarts2990]

@@tbone9474 lmao

[@tbone9474]

@@toastertarts2990 whatever that means

[@LordBattleSmurf]

Mortal Online 2 is SO MUCH BETTER. The que times are fixed now too. I haven't been this hyped about a game in 10 years. The fact that Starvault already has a deal with Epic Games to move MO2 to Unreal Engine 5 over the next year is also very promising

[@nathandingy]

If unreal engine 5 solves the node lines and star vault adds TC this game should really boom and keep 10k players daily

[@nathandingy]

With how popular rust is, it shows players don't mind more hard-core games

[@lamecgod]

I played but elden ring has me now ):

[@Texelion3Dprints]

"Sounds good, doesn't work", in a nutshell. But they keep trying. Where do they find the money ?

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Considering a game idea isn't destined to fail... They should probably actually have a good game design fleshed out. Other than you spawn, and that's it. Figure it out for 10 years until we design a tutorial...

[@jjcoola998]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss lol that’s about right

[@BarokaiRein]

Mortal online 2 is gonna be featured on this show pretty soon as well judging by how it's doing so far.

[@LordBattleSmurf]

MO2 is doing great atm

[@LordBattleSmurf]

@Flare I'll bet you $ it doesn't. It's the best MMO in n a decade

[@dogwelder9699]

Shits kinda slapping right now

[@SalehAbuRashid]

Tried to love this game. the combat was annoying. I was a swordsman and hitting enemies could only be achieved by getting really close. Only when holding two swords did the range get normal. Yet the monsters did damage from afar. Tried to love it. Combat killed it.

[@1Raptor85]

yeah, as someone who's only ever liked pvp mmos and couldn't get into ones like WoW, mortal and darkfall's biggest problems was the combat was complete jank, the combat in both was often so bad it felt less meaningful than rolling a die. They both also had absolutely no idea how to handle the PvE side of content, it felt like an afterthought in both games, yet they both still forced in a level of grind anyways forcing you to at least somewhat deal with it. A better example of games doing full loot/open world properly are survival games, Ark/Rust/Conan Exiles/7 Days to die/etc, some of the highest player counts on steam and many on public full loot servers, yeah it's not "true" mmo in player count (though many can rival early mmo player counts at peak) but these games are the closest to the classic Ultima Online style taken farther than any actual MMO has managed to achieve. What do they do that's better? Well just like classic UO they got the COMBAT, world, and monsters correct first, because without a point to the PVP and actual risk from the world around it just feels hollow (controlling special map areas, resources, etc)

[@nikalasnalter4431]

Lool so u need to mobs get same range as u? Lol))) they a mobs they need to take advantage cos THEY A BOTS. If u fight with ppls u get fair fight

[@SalehAbuRashid]

@@nikalasnalter4431 how on earth are you making so much grammar mistakes on a small paragraph? Also this is bad game design.

[@nikalasnalter4431]

@@SalehAbuRashid cos ing not my leng) and im sorry for this. but this is not bad disign cos mobs be a really weak with small attack range. i can jump over in my villa and dodge but if small range lol. that be a joke

[@asecondcycle]

Been waiting on this one. I actually played this in highschool, gotta say, this game is one of the peak cases AGAINST sandbox mmorpgs. It's pretty cool in concept, but extremely hardcore as well as obtuse. Even if player made narratives can be created, they were only enjoyed by like 100 people at the time I was playing. Played DF as well, and honestly, while they tapped into 5% of the potential, the 95% untapped left more to be desired. Also, people who love hardcore pvp sandboxes tend to be intense ass people who are not only outspoken in their opinions, but sometimes extremely toxic and gatekeep-y which leads these games to be extremely walled off to anyone who isn't already in the fold. I was obsessed with sandbox mmos even in highschool. I have next to no faith in MO2 based on my experiences in MO1 and its lack of growth and development over the years. SV is just unreliable at updating in a timely manner, and had NO justification charging a subscription for the snail pace it updated at. Just my opinion as someone who played it, look forward to watching this investigation, thanks as always nerdSlayer. Sidenote: this game's (starvault's) database got breached a while ago so I'm pretty sure a lot of the playerbase got doxxed. Also, Basshunter (of DotA fame) played it, you'd see him in town a lot if you played regularly

[@rimurutempest4945]

I used to fantasize about an MMO where you can create your own story and forge your own path like some novels do, but man playing it isn’t that gorgeous in practice. I felt so lost and confused, and since I’m less of a social gamer and just wanted to do quests and stuff, it turned me off so much.

[@finnfin]

Its just not a game for you then. I havent dipped my toes to these pools (mmos) in decades, but the concept of having as real like freedom in game, akin to a real life, just means that in order to someone to thrive, or be better/in better position, someone needs to get shafted. And that is in of itself, a very off putting thing for casual or mainstream gaming audiences. I think Rust, (even tho not an mmo, but shares some of the hardcore elements) is a perfect case study of this. It significantly lowers the bar, stress, and commitment when you introduce straight up wipes to a server, but it still doesnt alienate the concepts of player driven economics, and or territorial warfare. My point being that, the more absolutely hardcore game you put out. It averages to more and more niche playerbase. And i think thats okay.

[@wrathava]

@@finnfin it's not okay if the niche playerbase is toxic af.

[@Lanadra]

>Hardcore >PVP >MMO So you have chosen death.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

RuneScape. GG pointless post sigh

[@LordBattleSmurf]

You sound like a female

[@bombermankenny1550]

The second nerdSlayer mentioned Unreal Engine 3, I immediately sensed a disturbance in the force.

[@elro8081]

I remember trying it after a couple of months of release, full of "dreams". Logged in, create a character, gather a few resource and have a look at the world outside wherever I was, and get killed by a guy in heavy armor. Re-tried another day ... same story Never logged back in ever

[@L.Bomrek]

I never played mortal online 1 since I was born in 2006. It was before my time. Now getting my chance with mortal online 2 and playing it since combat alpha

[@linkesocke4533]

Mortal online 2: 120k copies sold does not sound that impressive for an mmo or a sequel. The first mortal online had 206k players. And even chronicles of elyria somehow got 211k players and they don't even have a game. And even with 120k players there are still big server issues and people stuck in the queue for hours. From the sidelines that does not look too promising, but I do hope they can fix this and turn it around.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

That's your opinion, but it literally is in a niche genre.

[@rimurutempest4945]

I remember playing this game when I was 13 and being so confused on what to do next. Like man, maybe I was just too used to games that tells you what to do and whatnot, but man I felt so lost playing this game, especially since I wasn’t a social gamer and just wanted to do quests and stuff. Sometimes havong a story and structure for a player to follow, especially newer players of MMOs, is necessary.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Some people don't want their hand held. And not all games are made for all people. The problem is these kinda of games almost take pride in having no tutorial.

[@DoctorEviloply]

I know I'm going to sound mean saying this but why are you playing a freeform, sandbox MMO with the expectation of quests and "structure". You have been catered to plenty. The entire MMO genre has forgotten the Massively and Multiplayer part of MMO to cater to you specifically. Who just wants to play singleplayer games pretending to be MMOs. You have plenty of great options other than this game. You can choose to engage with the game on it's terms. Or move on to WoW, FFXIV and other games you'd be much happier with.

[@rimurutempest4945]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss Yeah, the tutorial would have helped so much. It took me a while to even learn how combat properly worked.

[@rimurutempest4945]

@@DoctorEviloply I had no idea it actually was a freeform sandbox MMO, I just saw it, thought it looked cool, then downloaded it. Didn’t really figure out it was a freeform sandbox until like a few hours of playing it. Back when I was younger, I only get to play like once a week, so I usually just pkayed whatever looked cool and never looked too deeply into it.

[@Yomom12388]

@@DoctorEviloply You’re not “forgotten” at all. The MMO genre understands you exist, they just don’t care. Because you don’t constitute a large enough group of people to care about. Most normal human beings don’t like having hours, days, or even weeks of progress ripped from them just because they got caught with their pants down while they stepped away to take a leak. Every “hardcore full loot PvP” MMO ever attempted up to this point has, as a general rule, flopped harder than Neymar getting brushed against. Most of the time from what I’ve seen it’s generally because a few small groups of players rise to the top and then nobody can do anything without them rocking up and stomping them. Then everyone leaves and they whine that everyone is “too soft”. No, we just have lives. Also, you don’t sound mean, you just sound like an elitist douche who thinks your thoughts on the MMO genre are superior. Which is exactly the type of person I would expect to be playing a “hardcore full loot PvP” MMO. Enjoy your dead game in a year.

[@pitching]

Death of a game : habbo hotel

[@ixonite]

I was in Kindred Rising omfg.. Name was Satanjuice.. I remember those days we spent playing aoc waiting for release. Damn..

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

I miss Vunak

[@-Raylight]

I hope they don't abandon Mortal Online because they want more money by making sequel. A day long queue? Wow Almost all negative reviews on steam are about their server, let's hope they'll learn from past mistakes lol Next game is Hood: Outlaws & Legends, right ?

[@quartelgeneral6261]

they fixed server issue

[@xursed7990]

I think anyone who actually still played mortal online 1 has already switched to 2. It's pretty much a better version overall and besides the past month the patches have been pretty consistent. I think they might have already shut down the MO1 servers to focus on the 2nd one.

[@quartelgeneral6261]

@@xursed7990 mo1 is still up

[@АйдоралСмертестойкий]

I wont lie, for a very long time seing the ads of this game I was sure it was just a multiplayer homebrew version of Mortal Kombat.

[@Dracas42]

"It wasn't just for PvPers" Yeah, tell that to all the people murdering you before you can get the resources to fight back.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

I'm sorry, did you watch the video? Or just post emotionally? Their pvp systems didn't work. What stops murderers from just killing everyone in real life? Laws, systems. It's bizarre people lack this simple context that a broken system doesn't mean the whole thing is bad.

[@Dracas42]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss I did, but the whole game was built around the PvP, and the hardcore full loot aspect encouraged people who were already well established within the world to stop anyone from getting a foothold. This has been a common problem in any game with full loot PvP because you can't stop someone with more power than you from murdering you, especially if they didn't care about the consequences (which a large portion of the playerbase of these games don't). Yes, the systems in place were flawed to stop this, but that doesn't change the reality of my comment. If you wanted to get into the game, you'd have to deal with people murdering you because they could, and the game is focused on and centered around the PvP.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

It counters your comment, but your emotion can't see that. What stops you from dying to a better player is getting better or finding friends, when the system actually works. Which it didn't. Something most MMO players are allergic to these days though, so they make really bad arguments and speak on absolutes. You saying that new players are preyed on is not new, nor really even that helpful when the same concept applies to any game that let's new and old players compete. It's like people like you forgot the survival genre exists, I assume because you don't like the games.

[@Dracas42]

I really don't want to keep arguing with someone I respect this much, so I just won't. I'll admit that my first post was made out of emotion, and that I kept arguing my point from that same emotion. My argument was supposed to be "a full-loot PvP game won't appeal to anyone other than the hardcore PvP audience" but I let my emotions try to dictate an ultimatum instead of logically stating my point. So, I'd like to apologize for wasting your time trying to debate from a place of emotion instead of logic.

[@TheDarkestPhoenix]

Another game I'd never heard of. Interesting seeing this dissected, but the whole server issue thing on MO2... I don't know if there is a good way to solve that right now. Even major players like Square Enix are having issues getting server upgrades, I'm not sure the company behind MO is going to be able to get around those issues of queue times in a reasonable way until player interest tapers off, which isn't a good result, but is what had to happen for FF14.

[@MetalGamer666]

He didn't mention this, but they added alternate servers, and there is zero queue if you play on those.

[@benjones8649]

Wait times are now around 10-15mins to get into the main server. The game is by far the best MMO I have played since the glory days of MMOs in the late 90s early 2000’s.

[@MetalGamer666]

@@benjones8649 No other games can capture the dread and excitement of moving hundreds of thousands worth of gold and resources with 20+ people on horses from the city to the keep location some distance away.

[@Obelion_]

oh man mortal online. one of those games i wanted to like but really couldnt. played it in the beta way back when. it was kinda fun goofing off with full servers and spamming "guard" in the chat to crash the servers, but eventually (imo) full loot no rules games just arent fun. after the 10th times getting pked 5 meters outside the city trying to complete the tutorial i just stopped. though the scale of the game world was truly amazing

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

There wasn't a tutorial fyi lol

[@sidewithwerewolves]

I am playing mo2 now and would love to see you do a critique 12months later and review the 1 year since launch.

[@zavok]

a suggestion for Death of a Game you should do Battalion 1944 by Bulkhead Interactive that game and their 2nd attempt called promod is such a roller coaster, you have the devs attacking their community and to some degree stalking their community, Backers from their Kickstarter never getting the promised rewards (they did this twice first time under the name deco digital for their we made a game documentary), toxic environment in the studio (see that from glass door reviews), Lies about battalion development as they claimed there were vets from the industry and they even claimed to have hired ex AAA devs who use to work on old school shooters, when battalion failed and they announced promod they brought out a statement which i guess was suppose to be an apology but was just filled with excuse they said they only had 19 months to develop it (which isn't possible when you like at the time frames and a pre alpha being made before the Kickstarter) and then claim they was an inexperienced studio filling junior roles (they released 2 games before battalion and as mentioned before claimed to be vets and hired vets). They even attacked their publisher square enix in their live streams.

[@leatherDarkhorse]

For me any mmo prmote: sandbox hardcore pvp, usually died very fast since there is nothing much bring to the table, no story no progress.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

That's why I think RuneScape is so special!

[@xursed7990]

To be fair almost every Sandbox Hardcore PVP game was mentioned in this video. Taking a sample size of like 4 games ever attempting it and saying its a bad genre is a bit flawed. So far MO2 is the best one.

[@WyrmLimion]

I;m frankly surprised its sequel looks so similar to this and has many of the same issues.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Could you elaborate? Only same issues I've seen is inexperienced devs and latency problems. For example there's no simulated extra 40 Ms to account for lag etc.

[@WyrmLimion]

​@@nerdSlayerstudioss The game world is a prime example, you are constantly get stuck on things, in things or getting trapped in pits on or near the main trails of the game world. I have had to use the "I'm Stuck" feature more times than I can remember and all it does it make you jump a little which doesn't help most of the time. The Combat at the best of times can be a bit odd, when I clearly ask my character to block left or right it does the opposite, and this was on multiple settings of that system. The inventory system is also a mess, particularly when there is lag, seeing multiple stacks of the same item for example and speaking of stacking items really don't stack properly when you are trying to sort your bank. Speaking of the bank they didn't design them for horses and pets, or crowds. Its hard enough just to get to the banker then you have issues getting out of them cause they are in many places, in tiny buildings filled with peoples horses. My personal feeling is they ported over the game from MO1 which had a tiny population and didnt take any consideration to a larger audience which is the hot water they are boiling alive in right now. The population is dropping off fast and the game will be normal, with a tiny population.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Great post, thanks for the response mate. I agree completely about the terrain issues still there.

[@WyrmLimion]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss Been a year so wanted to give my response. As expected the player base balanced out and things got much more stable. I have to applaud the dedication of Star Vault to Mortal Online 2, they got through the launch pain and have dedicated themselves to it and have been making positive improvements and additions. As they say alot, they are not out to make the best story game, they are out to make the best sandbox they can to make the players the story. Today, that is rare, with most of our sandboxes have much more structure. Happily playing MO2 now.

[@heraditestreamingarchive1100]

A year late but I will say I did try Albion Online. While sandboxes can't hold my attention because my answer to "you can do whatever you want" is always "well what I want is a deep story that I go through while learning about the world lore" and well sandboxes turns out don't let you do whatever you want, Albion Online was one I tried nonetheless. And I will say the new player experience is pretty good but even once you leave the tutorial, you aren't lumped into a PvP area. Instead you build your character up and then to get better resources you eventually venture into the pvp areas and then to get the best resources you enter even more hardcore pvp areas. So you don't immediately get jumped when you join the game and have your stuff stolen: you first learn the combat and crafting and when your ready, you can go risk it. Mortal Online (and probably Mortal Online 2, but probably after it's version of Haven?) just throws you into the fire. Why would I try a game where I as a new player would immediately be attacked and have my stuff stolen?

[@thesheeepjd]

"It wasn't just for PvPers" My experience: Play for about a dozen hours in the "safe" areas. Venture out into the wide world to try and do some business (in the most worthless starter gear possible). Get assaulted by a group of people ganking on noobs, killed for no reason (as I didn't have anything of value, which was obvious). Yeah... I don't think I share your initial assessment.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

It's weird you hear my words and somehow erased the context in which I said them. Only thing I could assume making you do that is your emotions from the bad experience...except the game literally wasn't just for PvPers, by design. The game had poor criminal systems. Is real life just for PvPers? Or did we come up with laws and systems my dude lol...

[@thesheeepjd]

​@@nerdSlayerstudioss Bit touchy when someone doesn't agree with you, huh? Then please explain to me how any game that allows a player experience such as mine (and I certainly wasn't the only one with that) was actually "designed" for anyone except PvPers. Seemed quite obvious to me that if you don't enjoy PvP, there's nothing in the game for you as you'll have to deal with constant PvP anyway even if you don't seek it out. Just because you can do something other than PvP doesn't mean a game is for anyone except people who enjoy PvP.

[@Lunite1392]

@@thesheeepjd By the same logic just because you can PvP doesnt mean the game is only for PvP. You can craft or RP. The game is a sandbox where you can do whatever. If you just want to craft and play politics there are guilds you can do so to great effectiveness both in MO1 and MO2

[@warpfall4654]

Bro u need to do a death of a game: Titanfall/ Titanfall 2 its gonna take a lot of research but it has the single most complex and interesting death of any game i know of

[@darthcinema4262]

It died because of EA and hackers.

[@warpfall4654]

@@darthcinema4262 That is correct. But I wouldnt give all the blame to EA

[@darthcinema4262]

@@warpfall4654 I also blamed the hackers

[@DigasUé]

wait, hood? wow...I didn't see that coming...no, really, I remember the trailer back in 2020 , the idea for this game was so good!

[@DigasUé]

​@@janundsoo I don't think it can be called an mmo nor that sandbox mmos are that bad idea

[@xursed7990]

@@janundsoo That's what makes MO so good though. It doesn't cater to the masses and there is at least a few thousand players who do enjoy these types of games. Even Henrik says him self that he has never enjoyed most popular MMORPGS and made MO to scratch that Ultima Online itch. Besides its still more forgiving than games like Conan Exiles or Ark where when you die you often lose everything including your base. At least MO you only lose what you have on you.

[@mramazingxd4851]

Since the server issues have been fixed for MO2, it's been such an amazing experience. Best MMO i've been able to get into

[@Veep_The_Goblin_Hermit]

WURM online was very simlar to this. It is very niche like this. And really dead, but never was really alive

[@MonteKristof]

The very sad thing is that history is repeating itself with Mortal Online 2. The same problems, the same getting killed while spawning naked, the same refusal from Devs to implement some consequences, and moreover, a VERY toxic "old fans" base that are hell bent on making MO2 the same barren wasteland of 100 or so players to be their own personal sandbox.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Ive never died spawning, what do you mean? There are consequences too, do you just not like full loot games? What an utterly delusional post basically crying about a game not being made for them, but going a step further and speaking broadly for the fanbase while being insulting in the process.

[@MonteKristof]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss I love full loot, full PvP games. I am speaking about actual griefing.

[@kyle93watson]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss I can't even leave a city without getting killed... That shouldn't be an issue. People set up housing outside town and murder players who clearly have nothing on them. Hell, I wasn't allowed to use a road because a player told me, "there's a tax to be using this road." I was naked and got killed.

[@GreatSmithanon]

I tried Mortal Online for a while, but I found that it had a central, fatal flaw, that being "What the fuck am I supposed to be doing?" makes it very discouraging to play as a noob. There's this big world I'd love to explore, but I'm given no pointers on how to get things done, upgrade my character and equipment, etc, and that meant that I didn't stick around for long.

[@cesarsotillo784]

I love how much this channel has grown since it's beggings. More power to you, man.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Thank you bud

[@happyaccident8001]

I play MO2 and love it. Luckily it’s actually playable now. I did take a week off though until queues were fixed.

[@lizardjr.7826]

#DOAG has taught me that while YOU like "hardcore" PvP mmos,most of the gaming world myself included DOES NOT.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

That's perfectly fine, thank God. Because MMOs aren't massive popular until the age of Blockbusters, and they aren't meant to be for everyone. It was always a niche genre. We are dwarfed by many other genres.

[@kfcnyancat]

I think they're the kind of game most people like the idea of, but not the actual experience of.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

What about the games that...idk...exist in this space like this? Why do we have to pretend they don't exist, to just say you don't like this kind of game?

[@DarthLee117]

Great video as always. Next Death of a Game, Hood: Outlaws & Legends.

[@dukeofnylon]

that's already dead? damn xD

[@litterbox2010]

I was a prominent player of Mortal Online. As one of multiple leaders of a clan who controlled the entire southern half of the world map, with influence in northern regions as well, I was pretty well known. A major reason for this game is the corruption of staff and the lead dev. There were many cheaters, using exploits and hacks that went unpunished because they contributed to the game financially or were personal friends of the lead dev. There were also many duped items and currencies ruining the economy that could have been effortlessly removed by GMs, but the GMs were not allowed to do this because again, they were held by favorites and 'protected' by the higher staff. The database was very easy to search and our members who were also GMs were removed from the team for exposing these corruptions. Mortal Online was a suicide.

[@FrostyThundertrod]

I really liked the crafting system in mortal online. I just could never get much done with out being killed

[@BygoneUser1]

The biggest problem I have with Mortal Online is one that you see with a lot of 'sandbox' type MMOs. The developers lack direction. They don't have the leadership & vision in terms of design/mechanics to direct their efforts & build up the core of the game properly, never create systems that the player can use to actually create dynamic results with any given mechanic, and then just move on to something else... If you read their patch notes it's always just a huge hodgepodge of different things, and often content that isn't at all necessary, instead of fleshing out extant mechanics that are half finished and degrade the overall experience. The result is no single mechanic ever feels like a complete system. 'The players will make the content' is just lazy design for people who lack vision. If that is your mentality your reach is always going to exceed your grasp. It feels like they never deliver a finished product. The last time I played Mortal Online circa 2012-13 it still felt like a beta test... Right now people are paying cash down for Mortal Online 2 to beta test what is basically a beta/early access of the game, except they 'released' it anyway. The same shit happened with Mortal Online 1. I love what they are trying to do, but I don't think they are the ones to do it. Or, if they are, they sorely need new leadership. It's a very similar situation to Darkfall. "He who defends everything defends nothing". They don't know how to pick a mechanic and fully flesh it out. I'd love to see them succeed with Mortal Online 2, but my guess is basically this is the best the game will ever be. We'll never get a cohesive product because they don't have a cohesive vision. Again, would love to be proven wrong. But I won't hold my breathe.

[@theverylastuser]

I don't play games and of course don't pay developers who abandon their games to make the sequel. I remembered Forest.

[@xursed7990]

Trust me the sequel was needed. There was like 3 people still playing MO1 and 1000's of people who have been wishing for a similar (But better) game since. MO1 needed to die and the very existence of MO2 was a complete surprise to me back in alpha. It was written with spaghetti code on an outdated engine filled with 1000's of duped items. So far I'm loving MO2 but the community is pretty polarized with fanboys like me defending it on every video and salty people trashing the game any chance they get.

[@natecw4164]

The only way I can see a game like this NOT succumbing to the toxicity of zerg gank squads is to have GMs on each server that serve as guards and can recruit players to their ranks as needed. You'd have to police the police, yes, but without a strong balance in place, an openworld full loot PvP MMO will always be a gankfestival.

[@celiafrostborn]

John Strife covered this one. Pretty much a grindy slog of killing zombies to get gold and then go out and die to lose it and start again! So... much... fun...

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Such a boring world to where even if you enjoyed the game, you were bound to be bored fighting over things that you had no personal connection with. Including basically the whole game. So if you weren't rage quitting cause you don't like full loot pvp, or inferior pvp systems (that are flawed by their design, not indefinitely) then eventually you would get tired because of a boring lifeless world. Sad they don't improve that in the sequel, thus making it more about combat.

[@Hedgeknight420]

Its sequel is getting way better now . The past 3 months of updates brought it from negative to positive on steam reviews .

[@khandimahn9687]

Perhaps the biggest hurdle of MO (and MO2) is the new player experience. Quite simply, it is horrible. Some better design, to teach the basics and get people invested in the game before tossing them into the world, would do a lot to retain players. I can only imagine how many gave up before even a single hour has passed.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Absolutely and that's probably why NPE matters the most to me personally

[@MetalGamer666]

The game expect you to use the community to figure things out, and the Help channel has answered any and all questions I've had. It could be better, but as long as the community is helpful, it hasn't been a problem for me. Especially after joining a guild.

[@D_Abellus]

@@MetalGamer666 The biggest issue is that heavily relies on helpful people being online when a new player is. In MO2 this is far more likely, but during the waning years of MO, very very unlikely. Still, having a player help you learn the game in tandem with a more robust tutorial and some safety to figure out what to do, and some story to help guide new players would probably allow so many more players to get into the game.

[@walounet99]

You said it : PvP Nothing about PvP can last

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Then explain RuneScape, Eve Online, UO, DAOC, and the survival game genre.

[@pitching]

Death of a game : Dynasty Warriors Online

[@ohnosmoarlulcatz]

I feel that one is largely due to the publisher in the west (Aeria). The Japanese version of the game survived until this month. It went through like 3 or 4 rebrandings and lasted over 10+ yrs. That's a pretty good run.

[@jimmyjazz7414]

Still waiting on that Guild Wars video, NS! Super happy with the content lately though, it's been stellar.

[@ATC_Forgiven]

This felt like the history Channel for gaming. Reqlly well presented. I never got to play mo1 but just seeing some of the areas got me hyped to see them in mo2. See yall online

[@alexdevlin42]

As soon as you mentioned Unreal Engine 3 at 2:33 one of the main causes of death was already clear - it's been a sadly recurring theme in this series xD

[@6Catz]

Mortal online 2 has a 51% rating on steam is it really doing that well?

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

I'm confused what the question or implication is? Did you read the reviews?

[@BeeWaifu]

Oh wait, I know this game. Something happened on Steam with it so I decided to try it out. One of the players stood in front of me while I was attacking a mob then killed me and stole all my stuff. When I talked about it in the chat and on Steam I got shit thrown at me and mocked.

[@quartelgeneral6261]

yes the game is not a discord server with moderators on It lol

[@BeeWaifu]

@@quartelgeneral6261 It sure isn't lmao

[@xursed7990]

I mean criminal actions are disabled by default so you must have turned it on to pvp. It does suck when that happens though.

[@BeeWaifu]

@@xursed7990 I had just started the game. That option didn't exist. They were doing it to every new player. Dumped it in less than an hour. Trash.

[@oldmanfrags8543]

@@BeeWaifu look on the brightside, there's always WoW and no one can ever loot your stuffs.

[@Grandmothers]

Death of a game : playstation home

[@rod1028]

Damn you going real hard with these death of a game videos.

[@denisskenderovic3707]

I just came back from my microbiology exam which left me with little sleep, cozied up in my bed, and a new DOAG has been uploaded. What a great day. Bless you, nerdslayer!

[@mechanomics2649]

What does having an avatar pic of the original Blue Ranger have to do with being an insufferable troll? I genuinely don't get the connection.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

If only my dude, if only you could figure it out.

[@3sgamestudio]

mortal online 2 ends up here in 3 months I'm afraid :(

[@3sgamestudio]

@@maxIehner it proves full loot pvp has a place in the world. and building something better just requires something that works ;) Plus there's no endgame activity to keep people playing long term.

[@Ooyama1997]

I'm waiting for another Death of a Game episode about Heroes of Newerth

[@eduardoabarca6021]

Do an episode on Monday Night Combat!

[@Grandmothers]

Death of a game : original FarmVille

[@hanklestank]

“The Blaine, which are kind of like… hair dwarves?” Soooo…. Dwarves then?

[@NotTheWheel]

Of course this game died. It was only Mortal.

[@lv100Alice]

when mortal online 2 dies you can just post the same video

[@Xdgvy]

The fact that it was a full-loot hardcore PVP wasn't the reason it died. It just meant that they had almost no leeway to make mistakes.

[@HArrowsmith]

I've been using the picture in the thumbnail and that's the main part of their website as a background on my computer with some text over it for years now, without ever knowing it was from an actual game. Watching this, I'm kind of glad I didn't know, would've just made me want to play it, then subsequently sad about it

[@hazatheonly]

Funny how i went from josh strifes hayes talking about this game to you

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

We are everywhere

[@Slop_Dogg]

@@JoshStrifeHayes when it comes to the mmo genre, between searching for the worst & eulogizing the dead, your two channels are great companion pieces!

[@chost-059]

When is the new world episode coming?

[@mana20]

Have you ever tried Kenshi? I'm a long time player of these kind of MMO's since Asheron's Call and it hits some of the same notes for a single player game.

[@hungryhedgehog4201]

Tarkov has pretty much solved the full loot pvp thing with the scavs, scav karma and insurance but I see how that would be hard to implement in a system like that. I think what's important in these games is to always have some progression and to have a quick bounceback, high risk, high reward style.

[@lv100Alice]

very much this. full loot pvp mmo's just need to remove the mmo part honestly

[@Soridan]

Oh, I forgot I even tried this one back when it launched. I played all of a couple days, the new player experience was dreadful and it was so janky Age of Conan's launch was a masterpiece comparatively. I loved the concept but it seems like the Devs dreamed bigger than they could reasonably achieve.

[@RCmetal11]

lol Mortal Online 2 already down to a 6k 24 hour peak less than a month after launch. That's not a good sign. It really shows that the majority of players THINK they want a hardcore sandbox mmo, but its a formula that doesnt breed a healthy playerbase and pushes away players.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

You are ignoring so much context it makes your conclusion effectively useless. I even covered it in this video dude, talk about having blinders on. Yhe games server issues is killing the population more than anything else, and there's proof. Pointless to spin it as "well I don't like hardcore games so I will weirdly assume in a genre made to be hardcore people don't want hardcore games". That's how I read your post.

[@RCmetal11]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss name a single hardcore game that has been deemed an actual commercial success. Albion online - peak of 13k all time. Mortal online 2s peak is 10k all time. These aren't failure numbers by any means, but they aren't success. These sandbox MMOs have barren and boring worlds, uninviting new player environments, and frankly kind of toxic communities. I played Mortal Online back in 2012 when it went f2p for a while, and it was alright. But sandbox MMOs all share a common issue. The world's are sparse because the players are intended to be the content, but the sparse world bleeds players, and less players means less content. So you are eventually left with an empty, lifeless world where only the hardcore players stuck around and they grief and kill new players, making them not want to play. It's the same story for every single game. You can't just chalk it up to "omg UE3 and server problems". Lost ark was built in UE3 and it's grown in playerbase in Korea, and launched to massive success globally. Ff14 had horrible server issues during their last expansion where people couldn't play for weeks. Still has an extremely strong community. All this to say, if a games content was worth playing, many players would overlook temporary server issues in order to keep playing. But when a games content is boring, server issues are all it takes to bleed a playerbase.

[@RCmetal11]

@@maxIehner yes games lose players. That's normal. But to lose 1/3rd of your players in under 30 days, especially when you only had less than 10k to begin with? When New World lost 1/3rd of it's players people called it a total failure. I think people are just so desperate to see hardcore full loot sandbox MMOs work that they overlook facts.

[@DestroyerArcher]

@@RCmetal11 Commercial success does not mean it is creatively great, as some titles can garner a niche fanbase that see a strong idea. I cannot think of any titles as popular as Lost Ark that I would personally want to play.

[@RCmetal11]

@@DestroyerArcher creativity is great, but it doesn't pay the bills. If a game is creatively great, but flops at marker, then no one else plays the game and it fails anyway. You need a combination of success and creativity to make an MMO worth playing.

[@Apple-xx3wh]

Won’t be long until mortal online 2 will show up in a video

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

You mean won't be? Lolz

[@Apple-xx3wh]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss oh god yeah haha dam auto correct haha

[@waidixon8965]

Well to put it short, as endlessly possible as it was advertised, there wasn't enough possibilities for new players to have fun. So it results in there being no more new players, and slowly results further in no more Mortal Online.

[@4.1132]

Well, can doing weird finance be added to the list? They fell into the trappings of a lot of start-ups: not understanding the market (some memorandums even have weird flaws of not differentiating segments and audiences) and some corporate choices that are just weird. Why incorporate without a product? You’re trying to get capital fast and attract investors, but incorporation costs somewhere around 25-50k Euros and it comes with duty of disclosure, which most gaming companies try to avoid. Why not go for an LLC and Series A, via strategic investor, incubator or business angel which probably could have helped with all the resource and technical issues? It’s just odd, as well as their massive losses the last few years, until 2021.

[@Supadrumma441]

LOTRO needs a video IMO. Would love to see you pull apart the whole Sapience debacle.

[@pixieskitty]

is Lotro dead? didn't they get a new chapter, new races and finally Aragorn married??

[@Supadrumma441]

@@pixieskitty I wouldn't say "dead" as yet but its on its last legs IMO. With each expansion the company the runs it keeps making more and more shitty decisions. Its starting to feel like draining the last dregs of blood from the stone. Not to mention they absolutely SUCK at communication. But after the whole Sapience/trait trees disaster the game lost like 70% of its player base and its never really recovered. Which is a shame because its one of the best MMO's out there, its just been driven into the ground via developer incompetence and greedy publishers.

[@pixieskitty]

@@Supadrumma441 huh, I played it for a bit and then I got faceplanted by the paywalls, and everyone else moved on to play something else, so I'm more of a tourist than a local in LOTRO thanks for clearing this out for me!

[@Supadrumma441]

@@pixieskitty Yes its monetization is garbage as well.

[@FerintoshFarmsPhotography]

What went wrong with the unreal mmo? The fact it's an mmo on unreal is going to be a big part of my guess

[@MetalGamer666]

Do you play Mortal Online 2 still? The server queue is no more with the alt servers, and I'm having a lot of fun! I never played MO1, so it's exciting to figure out all the complex crafting and trading features. I especially like that you only have one character so you have to interact with other players (unfortunately some sweaty people have more than one account and play two games/characters at the same time, though).

[@xursed7990]

To be fair players often had 2 accounts in mortal online 1 as well even though it gave you 4 characters per account. I currently have 2 accounts but I still have to rely on others for a lot of things and the second account is so I can play melee once in a while. Being in a guild pretty much covers the disadvantage of having only 1 account. I think it really depends on how much you play and if you can afford it. If you play the game for 16+ hours a day 2 accounts seems less crazy. But you're not wrong, I'm pretty sweaty.

[@Whatever4690]

I like Josh have played mmorpgs from hardcore to themepark for over two decades and i truely believe i know alot of what it takes to make a good mmorpg. Pvp is great endgame content but you have to cleverly offer low risk areas or the pvers just quit, eve has done this best. Sometimes people just want to solo or small group pve even hardcore people, most of the time people will not roll in large groups. Huge elaborate areas like Tindrem are a waste of resources, even in wow stormwind 90% of the population went no further than the AH, people will group in areas with close resources and high population. Small details matter they can make a world feel more real. Sandbox is often used as an excuse for lack of content. Grind can be good, when you can't think of anything else to do you will grind in an mmorpg, standing around bored is worse, like most thing its getting the balance right. Rare drops really add interest. That which is easily obtained has no value. Cheating must be dealt with swiftly and seriously. People must always have the distant mountain to climb = challenges to beat. Sadly so far i feel Henrik hasn't learned from MO1.

[@Sedward9]

Always look forward to these uploads

[@Fluwufy]

the concept of this game looks really cool i would have loved it if i knew it even existed

[@beardedshadow]

I always find it a bit bemusing when a person has played a game for 100s of hours but doesn't recommend it.

[@CrystalClod]

Just watched the Josh Strife Hayes video on it today, so I find it very interesting to see views on the same game from a totally different perspective. Great vid as always!

[@renuvatio9986]

I wonder when they will abandon Mortal Online 2 to develop Mortal Online 3 in the Unreal 5 engine they could in essence keep coming out with new ones when Unreal pops a new release

[@SebastianPersson84]

I'm honored.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

[@Stuffystufferfield]

I know so much about so many dead games I’d never heard of before thanks to you

[@GothGfGG]

MY FAVE KZbin SERIES EVER DROPS TODAY!? ITS A GOOD DAY

[@AidenAlias]

I want good PvP in an MMO doesnt have to be in the openworld It can be a matchmade instance based thing.

[@spahghettiboi4150]

i've come across mortal online 2, but not the first one. this is gonna be interesting

[@bilskibrandon]

These MMO's make you look like a string bean oh shoot! Son eat some food! Luv your vids btw

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

String bean = lifelong martial artist body btw

[@bilskibrandon]

@@nerdSlayerstudioss ahhh that explains it so its all solid muscle. Dang! I'd hate to run into you in an alley

[@mike-sz5zz]

great vid. you should do heroes of newerth next