Deb Dana: Story Follows State, Climbing the Ladder and Diagnosing

I interview Deb Dana, a Polyvagal and trauma-informed therapist who has made the work of Dr. Steven Porges accessible to others. The conversation focuses on the concept of "story follows state" in Polyvagal Theory, where one's autonomic state comes to life and then feeds information to the brain, which creates a story based on what's happening in the body. Deb discusses the different stories that can emerge from dorsal, sympathetic, and ventral states, and how therapists can help clients identify cues of safety and danger in order to regulate their nervous system. The interview also touches on the process of moving up the ladder in therapy and the stigmatization of mental health. The interview concludes with a discussion of the "polyvagal family" and the importance of taking action to make a positive change in the world.
Polyvagal Trauma Relief System - www.justinlmft...
Website - www.justinlmft...
For absurdly in-depth show notes and quotes, head here - www.justinlmft...
DEB DANA - www.debdanalcsw...
(these links will take you to Amazon, where I get a portion of the sale as an Amazon Affiliate.)
The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy - amzn.to/3409v8z
Clinical Applications of the Polyvagal Theory - amzn.to/322IZK3
Intro/Outro music & Transition Sounds by Benjo Beats - / benjobeats
#polyvagaltheory #debdana #traumahealing

[@Perry.Okeefe]

Learning about polyvagal connected so many dots in my mind. I started really healing from my trauma when i became financially independent, got a safe place to live, and started raising my 2 year old daughter by myself. Being in a safe place and having her to connect to saved me.

[@JustinLMFT]

I'm pumped to read this. Hell yes.

[@marypelliott]

This was EXCELLENT. It's helping me destigmatize my (and my partner's) dysregulated states. My partner shuts down and I have been the one knocking on his shell and making things worse. Because, of course, his dorsal triggers my sympathetic and it's a rough road. This helped SO MUCH to learn that it's not that he wants to shut me out, but that his nervous system doesn't allow connection. I am getting better at regulating myself, so he can come put of the tortoise shell without pressure. Hardest thing I've ever done.

[@JustinLMFT]

Love reading this, Mary. Glad it was helpful, keep it up!

[@Wind3Warrior]

Mary, this is my situation exactly right now! For years I have been in the same pattern with my husband, until recently--I had a traumatic thing happen a few months ago and now I'm struggling with d.v. collapse myself and finally understanding how unable he was all along to connect with me. It wasn't that he didn't want to, but didn't know how to connect. I am working every day, sometimes on a moment to moment basis to get out if this. I feel for you so much.

[@debbieprice3556]

This was the BEST, most helpful interview I have EVER watched. THANK YOU so much! I have been reading about Poly Vagal Theory for about a year, but I have recently sunk into Dorsal. This is not the first time, but maybe the worst, because I have so many commitments to so many people right now. This gives me a “glimmer” of hope. I will watch and read everything I can find by you two. Your compassion is such a gift to me today. And that thing Deb said near the end about hard difficult it is to sleep with someone who also has a disregulated nervous system, so much so that they can’t sleep together - yes! You get it!!! Finally someone understands me!

[@JustinLMFT]

You’re very welcome. Enjoy your new Polyvagal journey, there’s so much to learn and apply!

[@Linda_P]

Thank you for this interview. “In sympathetic you’re my enemy, In dorsal you don’t exist.” This quote (@10:52) is my favourite from the interview.

[@JustinLMFT]

You're very welcome, glad you liked it! Yeah, that was a good one. I'm planning on compiling some quotes and putting more out there as a downloadable poster or something like that. I'm in quote collecting and designing mode recently lol.

[@Linda_P]

@@JustinLMFT Sounds good. I also like these ones… @16:44 “Our trauma stories live in sympathetic and dorsal, so when we hit those states, our trauma stories grab us, they come alive and grab us” @17:31 A very common sympathetic story = a blame story @22:44 “If we move through the world from a regulated place and offer that to others, the world will change” @26:58 “The nervous system is a system of relationship; it’s shaped in relationship with others. The beauty of that means that it can be reshaped as we go.”

[@KellenAdair]

That's amazing, thank you. What I perceived my Rt.W.A. bro went through. But, totally fabricated. Scary! And, Thank you! For the best explanation I've heard to date.

[@KellenAdair]

Mine, too. I was invisible and shameful and selfishness won out for the brute and Bully.

[@ErinBirchCoaching]

Such a great interview! I'm super grateful I got to see it!

[@JustinLMFT]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@RogerFoxwellHypnotherapy]

For anyone interested in the Polyvagal Theory (and we all should be 😁) one of the best interviews I have seen. Thank you both.

[@JustinLMFT]

Thank you so much! Truly humbled. It was an absolute joy talking with her.

[@tinaanjalid.2935]

Thanks for this rich and uplifting interview. From my own experience, I feel that this kind of work with the nervous system is an opportunity to explore patience, trust and self-love on a deep level. And could it be that someday on this journey we might find, in ourselves, a trust in life that feels truly reliable and is not easily shattered? I love Deb's idea about co-regulation in schools (min 49)😊... It seems healthy to me to make the function of the nervous system common knowledge and create opportunities for (co-)regulation within our daily life contexts - maybe also with nature, like, for example, a garden where employees can relax inbetween working units, or with animals present ... 🦉 I think it could be very beneficial to spread this knowledge and implement it in a natural way so that everyone might be able to access a ventral vagal state more easily. And then being able to focus on things that are close to one's heart and want to manifest as one's "true colours" ... this would be quite beautiful, I'd say 🌈🙏

[@Supercalifragilistic_]

Justin, fabulous interview.... touched on a couple of things that I’ve not seen DD mention before (ie, no flat affect! :). ‘Every diagnosis in the DSM is a dysregulated nervous system ❤️).... And polyvagal language on ins. forms cuz it’s honest- how great is that?!!! And a 1st grader can get it too 🥳

[@JustinLMFT]

So glad you enjoyed it. I really wanted to get some new material from her. I love watching her interviews as well. And Dr Porges too!

[@wouterdesmedt1736]

What an absolute treat, thank you so much for this! 🙏

[@JustinLMFT]

My pleasure, thanks for the comment!

[@drsandhyathumsikumar4479]

Brilliant session .grateful to both of you ❤🎉

[@JustinLMFT]

Super nice of you, thanks for the comment, brought a smile to my face!

[@carolinebelli3749]

Thanks, fantastic interview!!

[@JustinLMFT]

caroline belli you’re very welcome. It was a ton of fun.

[@markstoll6080]

thank you for this amazing interview.

[@JustinLMFT]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@AtHomeWithLulu]

This was so helpful and lovely!

[@JustinLMFT]

Glad you think so! Thanks for the comment!

[@teresacello]

OK, so what happens when "connection" is a danger cue? Anyone who has been abused by their primary attachment figure would have this issue.

[@JustinLMFT]

What happens? Not sure what you're asking, sorry. If someone is abusive, that's not connection. That's a clear danger and would send the victim into a defensive state. When the abuse comes from those we are supposed to attach to, it could lead to c-ptsd, a chronically stuck defensive/dysregulated state.

[@cherylwilsherlimberlife7210]

Hi, terescello, I hear you, its because we have learned that in order to connect we have to put up with abuse as otherwise we don't have any connection. But its actually a Dis organised attachments and caused the Trauma response, we loose parts of ourself, to survive and get needs met, but as an adult its now mal adaptive. Internal family therapy and healing attachment styles could help with this work & learning boundaries to create and bring connecting under true safety.

[@metropcs359]

This needs to be taught from grade school through highschool.

[@JustinLMFT]

Agreed!

[@laurenjazy2475]

When you say: “it’s not that he doesn’t want to be in connection with me, it’s that his biology won’t let him”. I have a question regarding abusive parents/partners in our lives. Would you say that it’s still true? That abusers are simply “victims” of their nervous system? I like Deb’a videos and content, but I am surprised that this topic doesn’t get talked about. When you are in a relationship with such a person, where do you draw the line? Many people have to leave to save their own nervous system; but hearing this kind of statement can create an excuse for abusers, and for the abused person to hang on. What do you think of this?

[@marypelliott]

You definitely need discernment on this one. There were people I had to leave so I could save my own nervous system.

[@pattyfluegel7816]

I hear that you have to move through SNS to get out of dorsal, and I use that. Also, because some clients have such a habituated yo-yo between Dorsal to SNS anxiety or fear I also wonder if its true one has to go through SNS. I have seen shift from Dorsal to Ventral during session...but Im not sure if it has always been through SNS...I mean yes, there is always some SNS that comes up in the work I do (Somatic Experiencing) because its a pendulating process. I guess Im just curious if its possible to go from dorsal to ventral without engaging SNS and what the science is behind that.

[@JustinLMFT]

From what I have been learning about and applying, no. There's always some level of sympathetic that kicks in. That doesn't mean it's overpowering and there's actually running fighting happening lol. But the energy is there consistently before getting to ventral.

[@pattyfluegel7816]

@@JustinLMFT But whats the science to support that? I mean, say you are in high tone Dorsal Vagal (DV) and you lessen up on the Dorsal brake going into low tone DV (which can be in a nice state in itself) and then bring in some Ventral Vagal, so you are then in a nice ventral vagal state with a pleasant Low tone DV base? Sure you can keep transitioning and go into a VV state with some Sympathetic (Like a nice playful state with social engagement and sympathetic activation in the form of playfulness) . But that isnt always whats called for by the system or what happens. ...Im realizing Im not sure if the vagal brake, which applies to the sinoatrial node in the heart and keeps the rythm slow, is of the dorsal, or the ventral branch of the vagus. I know that brake keeps sympathetic repressed..from what I have been taught.

[@Neilgs]

Sometimes or rather often the cues of danger cannot be articulated, so it is about being through nonverbal affective sharing/co-regulating, which then not only allows subtle nonverbal shifts of state but the platform of availabity, accompanied behaviors (as an integral part of shifting state) to articulate greater somatic authenticity rather than cognitive dissociative voicing.

[@amandaadams7934]

Please have her back. This was sooo helpful. I want her as my therapist!!

[@gudulejermish9548]

1:04 Avec la TPV il s'agit de porter son regard selon un autre point de vue, entre autres choses : les histoires arrivent après l'état du SNA système nerveux autonome (pour la clarté : l'état du polyvagal précède les histoires que raconte le client) Les histoires arrivent, se produisent dans le cerveau pour donner sens à ce qui s'est passé pour le corps - s'est produit dans le corps... Les histoires qui émergent d'un état vagal dorsal sont très différentes des histoires qui émergent d'un état vagal ventral. Les histoires dépendent de l'état de mon système, pas de ce que je choisis de penser........ 3:45 J'ai l'habitude de dire nous avons une sorte de profil SNA qui s'est crée au cours de notre vie...... L'autre jour je disais notre "chez-soi" (home) c'est le vagal ventral, sinon nous avons un "chez-soi loin de chez soi" (home away from home) c'est le vagal dorsal.

[@laursd4866]

❤

[@a_d_s5361]

Can you be in two states, or stages of the ladder at the same time? Where is freeze on the ladder?

[@JustinLMFT]

Yep, you definitely can. Those are called "mixed" or "blended" states. Freeze is actually one of those mixed states, a combination of shutdown and flight/fight. It would be sort of in the middle of those two on the ladder. I have more info on the other two mixed states and Polyvagal basics in this free resource on my site - www.justinlmft.com/polyvagalintro

[@angelabaker5038]

Re diagnosis - have you come across the Power, Threat and Meaning framework. It's much more along the lines you're talking about.

[@naturelover1284]

befriending your self makes jealous older career mothers very angry often in the midwest if uneducated. I am having mucho trouble in a rumbling apartment, and there is no other kind...it is constant alert and interruption. I am having trouble in a 3pd program are there other options? 4x a week is too much and then I can't be in the program if not

[@jenniferarnold-delgado3489]

I resent that Deb throws all the bathwater at the mother - ridiculous and unfair - human beings have children as a society , a mother is not the central commander of the universe , her situation is reflective of her surroundings - stop already .

[@rachaelmartin7901]

Yes cultural and institutional dynamics and influence are inevitably the overarching shapers AND regulation, sense of self and worldview are all developed integrated and processed through the secure/insecure attachment formed with our primary care-giver.

[@jenniferarnold-delgado3489]

@@rachaelmartin7901 although the relationship that the infant has with the "mother " - as you call " Primary caregiver " - the connection that that person has with society and their own support system is multi faceted and multi layered and multi dimensional , so , you want to lay it all on the mother because she is the ONLY link for the normal bonding process to happen , yet she is not actually in control of her own support system . This is a bizarre dynamic that will reflect much more the social status , than the mothers behavior . An alcoholic or dead mother in a wealthy family , will purchase great one on one care , 25 an hour is the going rate now , to properly nurture that infant , however there will be a limited continuum inside of that . Basically you are talking about a math ratio of 1 to 1 to 1.000.000 - at that point , philosophy and morality must come into play , and at this time in history , human life does not hold form as sacred . You still cant lay it all on the mother . Face facts you freaks .

[@cherylwilsherlimberlife7210]

Hello, sorry that this triggers you, its not your fault, but the way ancestors have passed on mal adaptive ways of being. Its no ones fault and everyone's, we are all here to heal and grow. Its your biological automatic response that can be learnt to work with

[@cherylwilsherlimberlife7210]

Jennifer - sounds like this has triggered something in you, I didnt experience her as blaming it all on the mother, but that we can learn to take responsibility for growth, as none of us was taught this. Its the solution that we have all been looking for

[@jenniferarnold-delgado3489]

@@cherylwilsherlimberlife7210 I am not posting as a client of a therapist , I am posting as an equal to all the participants in this open forum , both the people speaking on film, and the people reading and commenting . I am not triggered , I am serious . I believe that something is missing inside of this dialogue . My serious point is , is that if an entire society leaves the mother to emotionally manage a task that normally is the work of the collective , then the collective just stares at her and says " Why are you not solving this situation " its called a set up , and for professionals to perpetrate the set up is just plain old unfair . As I said , I am not triggered , you are basically bullying mothers by first of all , by calling them " PRIMARY" - its just not true . If somebody does not bring the primary food , the primary has to go get her own food , and find another primary . Therefore , obviously , there is no hierarchy in having a child , its a co operative effort of the entire circle to make it possible for a mother to have a child . Be she a mother wolf , an albetross , or a human . Tell me when and how that idea of PRIMARY CAREGIVER came about ? And what exactly does it mean .

[@Mona-gu4sc]

Everything I experience is a response to primary trauma dynamics rooted in my embryological development. When I say this, I mean that every action my system takes, every survival mechanism it employs, is designed to keep me safe-nothing more, nothing less. My heart, brain, and nervous system are deeply committed to my well-being. They engage in these survival mechanisms to protect me, based on an already programmed dysregulated nervous system, which is rooted in primary trauma dynamics that began during my embryological development. Understanding this, I recognize that my body's responses are not random or flawed; they are deeply ingrained protective measures. These responses are my system's way of ensuring my safety and stability when faced with the impacts of overwhelming environments By acknowledging this, I can approach my healing journey with compassion and kindness, knowing that my body is doing its best to protect me from uncomfortable suppressed trauma.