Debate - Christopher Hitchens vs Marvin Olasky - Religion and Politics

Debate date: May 14, 2007
Hosted by: The Future Forum
Topic: Religion and Politics
Moderator: Evan Smith, Editor of Texas Monthly

[@kadene2]

Can you imagine if nothing like youtube existed? Horrible thought. Hitch has been immortalized right here. His passion, courage, remarkable wit and brilliant ideas and for me, his rich baritone, keeps me watching these videos again and again...

[@milonguerobill]

Yes, I can imagine considering that KZbin was founded in 2005, only nine years before you posted this. In today's world, half of everything posted on social media is untrue or grossly exaggerated. Hitchens was right on the subjects of religion and God, yet remained a conservative despite the glaring contradiction. One of his biggest contributions was one that isn't so obvious, reading enriches and clarifies one's understanding of the world, without education people are doomed to superstition and other forms of fuckery.

[@AFMMarcelD]

Thank you for those beautiful words. Feelings are mutual.

[@AFMMarcelD]

@@milonguerobillIn-spite of today’s (at your fingertips knowledge) people still cling to their quackery delusions, yes it was none other than Albert Einstein when talking about the human race …”The human race? Oh, dear, we are a sorry lot indeed”

[@MrReaderfeeder]

"Which of us is more moral? Which of us is more courageous? Which of us has bluer eyes and is more sexually attractive? Which of us has more charisma?" - didn't expect his rebuttal of Pascal's wager to go that way, and what a beautiful finale. Hitch was the man.

[@ukrandr]

That was fourteen and a half minutes of pure gold at the beginning. The Master at work.

[@boxer12350]

ukrandr truly. The best opening I've heard him state yet!

[@Aliof]

Hitchens, simply put, is brilliant. Rest in peace for your legend lives on.

[@curtkohen6263]

Yeh real genius. Died choking to death in Houston. Real genius whimpering to kid in his last appearance while withering to nothing, that she should keep love in her heart. Of course the kid was about 200 pounds of gluttony mumbling his souless blather. Even then the miserable soul knew it was over. Pathetic.

[@benedictdonald4338]

Such an eloquent, wonderfully articulate speaker, his words are almost poetic.

[@harjinderooney]

christopher hitchens wiped the floor with him...

[@TheNuszAbides]

"My fellow Americans... thank you; I sometimes think you don't understand how lucky you are - yours is the country that has the only constitution ever written that absolutely insists on the separation of these ideas from the state."

[@stephencooper5972]

I still love watching Hitchens’s debates. However, I take issue as an Australian with this statement. Section 116 of the Australian Constitution (1901) - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_116_of_the_Constitution_of_Australia?wprov=sfti1#

[@oliverrhunt]

It's not nice looking back on old Hitchens videos seening him cough and knowing the struggles he had to come. He did great things on his way to the grave, knowing that there was nothing to come. What a great man.

[@masonvegas4336]

He said he wouldn't have taken back smoking if he had the option to

[@manusha1349]

Yes, I thought the same thing 😢 he was so brilliant and so pure of heart ❤ I often think his own goodness made religion redundant in his mind....if only he was still with us

[@jestermoon]

Take A Moment My fellow Ape The Man of words and pictures in my mind. I have PTSD after 28yrs in the RAF Suicide attempt mountains don't notice. I walk with a limp 24/7 in an approved home. Thx gods I still live in fear every day. 20 drugs a day to stop me having another go. I live in my foxhole with many comrades, No gods in sight Just men dying all around the world post covid. Please my friend 🙏 Get Free Stay Silly Stay Safe and Stay Free

[@pbinnj3250]

I think Christopher is the only person who I never met who I miss so much.

[@Rich-lb5ec]

Oliver, the man,, the idea, the philosophy never will die. Chris would appreciate it.

[@10290gilmore]

I wish this religious debate would end forever....religion belongs in a museum.

[@paullever9219]

Absolute pleasure to listen the Christopher Hitchens…

[@McLarenF1God]

@Sailright21 His way with words blows my mind. I've watched every debate of his multiple times, and I am continually astounded at his ability to express ideas within these debates in such an aesthetically pleasing manner. I very much envy his arrangement of language.

[@pyrespirit]

I take comfort from the knowledge that Hitchens accepted the risks of his behaviour whole-heartedly and would not have changed anything about it had he the chance. He lived his life exactly as he wished, to the fullest he could, and accomplished a huge amount. Definitely missed, and what he went through must have been miserable, and his life was inspirational to any who would live according to reason and evidence.

[@benedictdonald4338]

Indeed. During his life, I was very concerned that a radical Christian or Muslim would murder him simply for voicing words that scared them.

[@godot789]

I love Christopher Hitchens ,his mind ,his views,his voice especially .I can and have done listened to him all night so many times.He is so missed by this world and we need another just like him now .He was so prophetic as we can all see now his ideas of free speech ,good night dear prince RIP xxx

[@woutkoopman]

I agree and I think that Douglas Murray has the potential of filling these enormous shoes. He is a very smart British journalist who can debate very brightly with the same ethical believes.

[@Trickshot72]

godot789 Well said.

[@JosephNordenbrockartistraction]

+godot789 No one can be born at the same time and place with the same parents. We can only have one Christopher Eric Hitchens. At least he left us his books, these videos and audio books recorded with his own pleasing voice. He is not resting peacefully anywhere, but I generally share your sentiments while I too miss him dearly like a great friend I almost met.

[@Trickshot72]

Joseph Nordenbrock Absolutely agree. Watching his brother on question time recently, was heartbraking. His mannerisms reminded me so much of what we've lost. Such a shame that Peter doesn't posses his brother's vision or charisma. Christopher was his mothers son. Peter is much more staid, like his father.

[@jadezee6316]

try spending those nights listening to yourself. that is the only way to learn.

[@rosslumbus]

Hitch nailed it....again

[@diddleydee]

This debate , mainly everything that Mr.Hitchens mentions, completely unveiled reality , changed everything for me: ESP the part "resist this with every fiber of your being", thanks so much

[@benoneill4636]

This Olasky guy had no idea that he'd already crossed the event horizon out in the parking lot and would never escape.

[@1simon1000]

So well said sir. Thank you for being somewhere out there.

[@Reerrpad5515]

I love olaskey's opening...it's clear he either didn't read the book or didn't understand it.

[@AnkiMirandaBellyDance]

We need more Hitchens!!!!!

[@rieniekramer1912]

Douglas murray...a man of great intelligence...but nobody will ever replace Christopher hitchens

[@modo203]

Brilliant! Thank you for sharing.

[@MrSidney9]

"...which of us has the bluest eye and is the most sexually attractive...?"lol 

[@NOXFPV]

Christopher is a great speaker.

[@mikefromwa]

Hitch is The Man, no doubt. :) Marvin Olasky made a few good points, but nothing substantive, and nothing that invalidated anything that Hitchens said. He was pointing out minor exceptions to the rule of religion's toxic nature, and was acting like it was a big deal. As if the minor amount of good religion has done somehow outweighs all the mountains of harm it has caused. All in all, Hitchens clobbered him.

[@oliverrhunt]

You can only say that someone has done something good because of religion if you can show that they wouldn't have done good without religion.

[@blueduck5589]

Great thought!

[@JosephNordenbrockartistraction]

Best thing I can say about religion (apart from how deadly it can get around the world) is that it's boring in the information age.

[@VerumAdNauseam]

How did Marvin Olasky ever get a PhD? Either his professors were afraid of his family, or they got paid off by his family, or they gave it to him just to get rid of him. This is why college degrees alone don't impress me.

[@TheNuszAbides]

you're so informative!

[@maximustubulus]

My apologies, uploader. You have done exactly as I requested - provide full provenance. I confused your video with another of the same event (I had them showing side by side) in which the uploader gave almost no information. Thank you for your efforts.

[@TheNuszAbides]

"...This fighting - not just about religion but between the religious; this desire [to] have the freedom not just of religion but from religion - is enshrined in the founding documents of this country in a way that should make you very proud. And it should therefore put you very much on your guard that there are people who don't seem content with it, who seem always to wish to impose their own religious belief on this."

[@gor265]

Utterly brilliant! There really is no other way to describe Hitchens in this post, as an orator and clear thinking reasoned logician, he was quite literally miraculous.

[@Viky.A.V.]

Hitchens made the final minute even better than the whole discussion =D He was such an honest, moral, unbelievably brave, intelligent person, that I, as an agnostic, truly wish there was an afterlife, just because of people like him. He cannot be gone into nothingness. Forgive me Mr Hitchens for these faith-filled words =D

[@scrumpymanjack]

And he doubtless turned up without rehearsing, without notes and with a couple of whiskeys on board. Gotta love the Hitch.

[@lockwyn]

...spread his words fellow humans!

[@mushroomfat]

It makes me sad to hear Hitchens coughing

[@MatthewMetanoia]

I really like most of the people Hitchens debates. I appreciate christians who are open to discuss their beliefs rather than taking offense and hiding from nonbelievers.

[@vashna3799]

Obviously Hitch is pulling his punches here because Olavsky seems a nice man but still wipes the floor with religion.

[@mikejacobs6994]

We need more people like Hitch if we hope to keep our liberties... If not we will lose the first amendment, it has been under attack for a long time by religious political incumbents ... For example, the national day of prayer THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING PEOPLE... if we let them win there it will only be a matter of time before the rest will go... STAND UP FOR THE 1ST AMENDMENT... Their is a reason it is the first one and the first sentence says very clearly; Congress shall make NO!!! law respecting an establishment of religion ... We have got to fight to keep religion out of our schools and our politics the more religious people we allow to be elected the weaker the 1st amendment gets... STOP VOTING FOR RELIGIOUS PEOPLE... Fellow atheists we are losing our rights to think freely more and more everyday thanks to politically motivated religious people... That being said it can no longer be beneath us to fight the battle of ideas with these people, that is to say we can longer afford to let these people perpetuate their backward ideologies amongst our youth. Make no mistake this is not a laughing matter we ARE losing this fight and will continue to lose if we do not take it seriously... PLEASE WAKE UP AND FIGHT!!!! (HITCH WOULD HAVE)

[@Ikindoh]

He actually said they are equally evil but not equally violent at this time

[@jebediahkrimsoncraftleding3012]

I'm impressed by that. I hope that sometime in the near future, the U.S realizes that anything a church can do (in terms of aiding the poor, etc.) can be done equally as well, if not better, by entirely secular organizations with no religious affiliation whatsoever.

[@boxer12350]

Is there anyone at all willing to transcribe Hitchens opening statement as a KZbin comment? It was just so amazing and I can't find a transcription anywhere.

[@cheebawookie]

Did Olansky really say "teaching atheism in class"? Not a subject.....You can tell Olansky doesn't know how to debate and was not up to date on the latest arguing points.

[@ernestofurchtgott5421]

Olasky spent all his time telling stories of people who do well because of religion, he could’ve spared us the rest the tales, his main claim that underlies all the examples he gave is all based on a non-sequitur: To believe that religion’s premises are true because people do good because of it

[@rossmetacraft]

I wonder if Olasky actually thinks that religious people who do good things wouldn't do good things without religion.

[@bmartins6018]

Humanity misses you Hitchens!

[@ihatespam2]

That guy who said he never heard a response to Pascal’s Wager has never looked, obviously. It’s a crap argument and you shouldn’t need someone to even tell you that. Just read it. Terrible logic.

[@FrankReif]

Even the English are impressed by what he says in that awesome accent.

[@takepartlive]

Everyone needs to try and vote more often!

[@salasvalor01]

1:12:40 to see Christopher Hitchens do a Bertrand Russell impersonation!!!

[@MyMojosSoDope]

Theres footage missing from this debate between the 39-40 minute mark. I don't know why it was cut because some of my favorite points made by Hitchens were in this section.

[@gaynomadic]

My St Christopher.....Christopher Hitchens. RIP.

[@deceptivepanther]

Does anyone know of a debate on KZbin where Mr Hitchens is properly challenged? He seems to quietly mop the floor with his opponents. Not that he isn't under pressure, but it would be interesting to watch him threatened intellectually.

[@deceptivepanther]

I suppose. I spotted one or two old debates on 'the media' and what-not, and he seemed to thrive in those also.

[@fredthemanish]

Ian P some say william Lang Craig gave him a hard time. its alright in my opinion.

[@deceptivepanther]

Thanks.

[@johnwillman9400]

Hitchens Vs D’Souza are my favorite. He is by far the best opponent Hitchens ever faced.

[@interestingyoutubechannel1]

Ian P Yeah there is one - Hitchens vs Rabbi David Wolpe. This rabbi does a much better job & has intellectual honesty & sharp thinking, unlike most others. Check it out. I'm an atheist Jew by the way.

[@mgdibtygd]

I've seen this again and again in these debates. The argument for religion always boils down to 1. There exist religious persons, and 2. A religious person once did a nice thing.

[@davebryan8416]

I don't understand why religious people seem to think that without their existence, there wouldn't be any people advocating for the assistance of those in need. If there weren't religious people, does anyone with a decent sense of reality think that we'd all just stand idly by and watch people suffer and die? I think the secular humanist movement would happily step in to take religion's place with the same kind of tenacity.

[@legoking2372]

Please list the best secular humanist charity in our nation; how about in your city. Please tell us a civilization built in the foundation (primarily) of secular humanism. Contrast the most secular humanistic nations today with those most Christian and tell us which is more charitable.

[@ihatespam2]

@@legoking2372this is a dishonest response. Secular humanists were not allowed to exist in most of history due to your pretend moral religious people. It’s like saying racism is OK in the US because none of the founding fathers were Black.

[@jimmyjam992]

You wouldn't need faith if you had facts and evidence!!

[@10290gilmore]

Yes

[@koolanator]

First, just to be clear, I'm with Hitch... but it seems to me that, Olasky did treat this as a logical statement; if he took the statement as a generalization his entire argument would be void since he agreed that some evil was produced by religion. That being said, I think Hitch didn't say "...poisons everything" lightly. I think he would also say that [Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still wrong] suggesting that even good actions which are done for religious reasons are tainted.

[@davidsmoothington]

When I Wikipedia’d Marvin Olasky, I got a bit embarrassed as an admirer of Hitchens that he spent any time at all with microbial wot of Olasky. And yet Olasky had an outsized influence at the time. We all need to start somewhere, it seems.

[@shadowdragon1414]

@Wrahns how did you mix up with and we? :P lol

[@cyberslick18]

@AstronomyGuru84 Not only that, all studies show that those that consider themselves atheistic donate a far greater percentage of both their time and money to charitable causes than those that identify as theists.

[@PerfectHamsterFiend]

No one knows. No one says they know except for religion.

[@oskarmamrzynski]

The observation that things fall due to gravity is a fact and true by definition. Heliocentrism is also an observable fact. The principles behind it though are subject to understanding only through mathematical models, which can be incorrect on some levels, e.g. newtonian mechanics fail on quantum level, but are still taught and accurate for macro interactions.

[@Endymos]

Hitchens rocks, as usual. I've yet to see him be defeated in debate

[@markrutledge5855]

Then you didn't watch this debate. Olasky's rebuttal was devastating.

[@woodytheduke]

@@markrutledge5855 idiot!!!

[@nosteinnogate7305]

@@markrutledge5855lol the best you get out of that is that you can do good for bad reasons

[@markrutledge5855]

@@nosteinnogate7305 The best? Hardly. That is a silly comment.

[@angeliquesebban]

yes, I love it!!

[@larjjlion]

In the West 3 major language families evolved in time and spread to regions around the Middle east. This was due to the fact that when many languages exist in cosmopolitan regions like Mesapotamia was languages tend to develope similarities. Thus the Semitic, the Indo-European, and the Turcic language families formed. The Indo-european languages were cemented by the Greek and Persian empires which made these languages even more similar

[@omgflarggralfgmo]

@yatter1 Read this as only the first line. Made it so much better.

[@FirstFretCapo]

Debate date: May 14, 2007 @ 35 min he brings up Kony..5 years ago.

[@xjaskix]

WTF why does it cut off right when he is talking about Marjoe Gortner at 39:53?? i wanted to hear it! so annoyed right now.

[@FlailingJunk]

Has Hitchens ever found someone with something interesting to say to debate?

[@eliehasteiner3167]

Olasky presents standard inadequate defenses of religion. Hitchens owns yet again.

[@AneTix101]

"There are a lot of ppl who spend their whole life looking at these things"..that does nothing for the validity of the tales. I'll spend my whole life looking at them and studying religion, I truly love studying it, but that doesn't make it true.

[@chokin78]

The "holy shit" bit is for the books man...

[@billthestinker]

nice post

[@alan12814]

Wasn't he a wonderful man. Does anyone know of a person nearly as good as a speaker please?

[@seanscully4347]

Yes, Richard Burton is number one speaker ever, and Christopher Hitchens is number 2!

[@jonathanrussell1140]

​@@seanscully4347Stephen Fry also Have you watched the Dawkins/Hitch/Fry one?

[@CuddleScout]

Yes, a conclusion is valid. It doesn't mean it's "absolutely true" otherwise no one would question it, which is not science.

[@AFMMarcelD]

I know I am not going to live forever and neither are you, but until my furlough here on earth is revoked, I’d like to elbow aside the established pieties and raise my tumbler 🥃 of Johnnie Walker Black high above my head in honor of the brilliant intellect and oratory that was Christopher Hitchens, his thought provoking courageous ideas and opinions will enshrine him forever amongst the giants of reason. I sorely miss the gorgeous bastard.

[@DonRico333]

I still can't believe hitchens is gone, forever.

[@perdaygo]

Also "Secular Charity" in the form of foreign aid (paid for by taxes from religious folks) is used for political purposes which suit multinational corporation.

[@edga69]

My guess is that consciousness just has to be appreciated in a different manner. Just like matter and interactions (forces) themselves are different from the laws that describe them, consciousness may too be apart from the descriptive laws of physics. It may not be possible to get from description to experience. Although, this is all a guess and I am not stating it as the truth.

[@edga69]

One could say all of science is our abstract models of the observable universe. A wavefunction is not directly observable, although its modulus squared is i.e. its probability. The problem is you decouple the abstract from observable reality, and then say it completely outside the remit of science. The issue here boils down to the nature of consciousness, and how shared ideas can be regarded. (In my opinion.)

[@Vrailly]

it randomly skips some footaget at around 40 minutes

[@MrDmorison]

how did hitchens use the word terce in the sentence when he starts talking at like 1:05:00?

[@postoergopostum]

I've often heard this argument, but only from the third world or the states. Most of the rest of us in the industrialised world have decided that we do really want effective health care for all of our citizens, a welfare safety net that works, and a first class education for everyone. Yes, by US standards, that is pretty socialist. Any charity involving a faith based organisation, though, will always be the least moral because the need is not the first priority.

[@edga69]

The lack of free will does not mean we are not accountable. It someone commits a crime, they should locked up to keep them from harming others and/or to reflect on their actions to become better members of society.

[@CuddleScout]

First of all, if you don't do something to someone so that you hope no one does the same to you too, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. You're not stealing from someone out of fear someone does it to you, and logically it's necessary for a society to function. This is not morality, because a moral action is one that is done because it's the right thing to do, not expecting anything, like good karma, to follow you in return. This is why the Greatest Commandment is to love one another.

[@cyberslick18]

@AstronomyGuru84 almost all* studies, I didn't mean to say ALL studies show that.

[@rouzbehazshab]

Hitchens is one of the people i have gladly known who describes what it actually means to live under a dictatorship.you who have not experienced this might now hesitate and contemplate the idea a little more deeply.

[@sccitylhh]

Because for some unfathomable reason, one can receive a doctorate in hokum. If Olasky healed people through prayer, I confess I might give the title some credence.

[@johnwillman9400]

Happy birthday Christopher Hitchens, he would have been 69 today.

[@CuddleScout]

Love is generally understood as an abstract feeling that is forever and all-encompassing, unconditional with no limits. You ask for nothing in return. Love is also considered to be irrational, as people do illogical things because of it. It's because of these qualities that love cannot simply be reduced to something physical, and the romanticism of the emotion is lost on atheists as such a thing does not exist to them.

[@larjjlion]

Not only would the chemical composition of carbon change. But the chemical composition of water itself could of changed. What scientists should know is that a change in the frequency in the electro magnetic spectrum can have an effect on chemical behavior and vis versa. The loss of a water canopy encircling the earth and the resulting planned by god change in the tilt to prevant the earth from scorching would effect the gamma rays (highest point known on this electromagnetic spectrum).

[@charlesrobinson6650]

Hitchens is in excellent form. I also kind of like Olasky as well, but he sets his debate objective low by taking the position that religion doesn't poison LITERALLY everything.

[@ihatespam2]

He strawmans the point and wastes our time with anecdotes.

[@Brianchse]

@norwegin Not many people Hitchens debated in his entire career EVER had even a slight chance of coming out looking intelligent afterward.

[@VikingII]

Yes it is. I hope you're not suggesting that is what I did, because my premise and conclusion is concretely stated.

[@MusicVersa]

We can rationally say it's unnecessary. There's no rational way to say it's unlikely because we have no frame of reference and no way to understand or calculate probabilities.

[@MartinBuzora]

Yes, that would be an exciting word for someone like you, wouldn't it?

[@McPrfctday]

@weefeatures It's really strange when you see him as a young man... and he has the same voice!

[@GODTHESOOTHSAYER1]

Correct..

[@Jrunri]

Anyone know what was cut out at 39:52 ?

[@StevenKHarrison]

gee, no, I never noticed. unfortunately their prattle has done an incredible amount of damage over the centuries.

[@AndysEdits]

wow there was no coming back from Hitchens first verse