Debate on LGBTQ Representation in Kid's Cartoons

[@testoftempest]

Happy New Year or New Year's Eve! Depending on where you are in the world. The Best of Vaush 2021 video is coming out tomorrow on Vaush's main channel! ✨😎 ⏱Timestamps! 0:00 Intro 1:09 “I don’t like She-Ra” 5:14 Western Animation Renaissance? 6:57 Should You Explain Trans People? 11:52 Good Example of a Trans Character 14:14 Steven Universe 20:09 Getting Cynical 23:16 How Do We Solve This? 28:33 Showing transitioning in a kid’s show? 37:01 Virtue Signaling? 51:00 Laying it on THICK

[@BigaloMax]

Happy new year tempest

[@TonyAncom]

Ily editor. Happy new year

[@tomisntblue]

Worth pointing out, Bob's Burgers has a lot of gay characters. And Bob is canonically bisexual. It's played for a joke, but when a gay man misreads Bob's interactions, the guy hits in Bob and Bob replies with, "I'm mostly straight" and "you're out of my league."

[@LewdNoodz]

Welp Bob is my bi icon now lol

[@wacksonjittemore4013]

And there's that episode where he becomes a cab driver for some crossdressers (I think they're crossdressers? One of them refers to themself as a man) and he playfully flirts with them lol

[@j.malo-roper4050]

@@wacksonjittemore4013 I think in that episode they were meant to be crossdressers, but when they reappear in the series later on the show treats them much more like trans women.

[@WhichDoctor1]

@@j.malo-roper4050 To be fair I used to be a crossdresser, until I was a gender fluid enby. And now I'm a trans fem. It's not an uncommon progression.

[@hoobajoo]

Also Gene has big non-binary energy

[@keithredacted8154]

We need mlm relationship rep in cartoons that are between two main characters like a lot of the wlw rep we have. Its sad that only wlw get to shine.

[@jimmilton8333]

This 💯

[@LewdNoodz]

Naruto, I will forever say him and Sasuke are gay

[@violetsonja5938]

@@LewdNoodz Hey no bi-erasure! lol Naruto pervs after girls in the show. Especially after spending time with the Pervy sage.

[@thunderbird3304]

@@Ass_of_Amalek It's short for Men Loving Men in this context

[@user-yz7cd9eb4c]

Agreed we definitely need more Marxist Leninist Maoist rep 🙌

[@TheOutsider69]

She-Ra has a few problematic tropes but nothing too crazy. It's a net positive in my opinion and significantly so. It's also just extremely well written and fun as hell to watch.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

I've heard good things about She-ra and I plan to watch it. Any bad trope I should expect?

[@Toastishott]

@@DieNibelungenliad only two i can think of is double trouble is a shape-shifting monster as the only canon non binary character (I think) and entrapta is the amoral autistic

[@Toastishott]

@@DieNibelungenliad it's still a great show tho you should watch it if you like cartoons

[@SevenHunnid]

I got fired from my job of 2 years because i almost fought my 50 year old coworker.. and It got toxic yo so now, i spend most of my time smoking weed on my KZbin channel now, meanwhile i get back to the hustle😅

[@chrisnotpratt1903]

@@SevenHunnid what?

[@jaycetodd2883]

Amab representation is EXTREMELY LACKING in kids cartoons like how is there no AMAB queer ppl anywhere

[@blue3149]

i don't really watch cartoons or shows, but aren't trans women pretty prevalent in those?

[@jaycetodd2883]

@@blue3149 No??????? Like just not at all????? Idk where u heard that bestie???/?

[@blue3149]

@@jaycetodd2883 okay, right, but what about non-het men? even in the media that i do consume (which is mostly video games) it's pretty often that i see an mlm couple or a male character that simply isn't straight. sure, there definitely should be more representation, but that's kind of a problem with queer representation in general, no?

[@JMWraith]

I'm pretty sure this is just an unfortunate case of it mostly being AFAB queer ppl who head the cartoons so they tend to write their experiences in. Also helps that alot of recent cartoon protagonists have been girls.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

Amab?

[@amogus7978]

I found myself agreeing with both on some aspects. The caller is a bit of a doomer, and I get that things feel insufferable, but they should see how much the world has changed the past 10 years on those issues and wonder; how would queer people feel 10 years ago? Would they not feel like things won't change for the better too? And yet things did change and now we're here. And things will keep changing. Let's make sure we change them in the right direction

[@user-vu7ls1vm9h]

As someone who works in the animation industry, maybe I can shed some light. Firstly, I understand much of the caller's frustration but secondly, I also think that maybe she doesn't fully realize her own criticism. Maybe I can shed some light but keep in mind that I am Cishet so I might not be entirely accurate on lots of things. That being said, one of the things you have to keep in mind is that a lot of the problems she mentioned occurs due to the artists and creators clashing with the executives and those at the top. And many problems occur when largely conservative executives clash with lefty animators, writers, and etc. projects often get watered down. In the cases of the Owl House and Steven Universe, for instance, the initial concepts of the show were both aesthetically and thematically more mature and less saccharine but like with most shows, the art style, and the themes were changed to pass through what executives find appropriate for kids. This is also partially the reason why shows will often artistically feel the samey because executives know what works. As such, representing LGBTQ+ characters in kids' animation in the current era were already an uphill battle and even the current level of representation is a significant progress that derived from years of push by the artists and writers. Also, I think that representing LGB people in kids' shows is easy but trans people and non-binary people become a little more complicated. I think what this conversation showed me was that maybe she doesn't entirely know what she wants. For instance, when Vaush mentioned Raine, the non-binary character from the Owl House, the caller tried to imply that Raine wasn't significant. When Raine absolutely is a significant part of the show, particularly, in Eda's story which again, is also a significant part of the show. This idea that "If you're not super into the show, you might miss the fact that Raine is non-binary" isn't true. It was extremely obvious based on the context that Raine was non-binary and they were referred to as such several times throughout the show. But they also didn't make a big deal about Raine being non-binary either so I think Raine would pretty handily fit with the standards of the caller but it feels like she's just proactively attempting to dismiss the representation. I think Raine was "making it known without making a big deal about it or drawing an attention to it." as she said.

[@eccentriastes6273]

Maybe I'm just slow, but I did miss the fact that Raine was nonbinary.

[@Tacklepig]

So would you agree that giving artists creative freedoms without execs etc meddling would be a solution? Also, idk if trans and nb inclusion is that difficult, it will be a bit more ambiguous, but isn't that kinda the point? If you're not trying to enforce stereotypes, it SHOULD be somewhat ambiguous. My first idea for a trans character would be just a female character with a male voice actor, but that might actually be too stereotypical. With nb, you can literally just make them ambiguous, no obvious inclusion of male or female traits either way (though depending on animation style, that will often just default as a somewhat androgynous male, so it's maybe not the best solution).

[@U.F.R.G]

Exactly my thoughts on this convo very well put

[@andreja9425]

that’s true from the executive perspective but it’s an issue more broadly as well. Like it seems like lgbt rep is almost exclusively relegated to this kind of pink butterfly children’s animation. Like it would be so cool to have an enby protagonist in some kind of edgy sci fi or fantasy setting. It could be like avatar the last airbender and for kids or something further like Arcane or even some more live action would be incredible. I have some sympathy for the struggles to get such a show made but I think the only way to get it done is to continue demanding better representation and not just giving up cuz it’s “hard.” As far as to your uncertainty about the callers position, I really think they were just talking about wanting a characters transness to be an important part of that characters identity, but that it not be focused on so much that their only defining trait is their transness over any other attributes. Like it would be cool for a character to go to another character for relationship advice about a guy and then the other character says some surprising or unintuitive advice, and the original character is like “how are you sure that would work” and the other character could be like “I was born as a male” or something. Like it can be explicit without being sexual or dwelled on for too long.

[@TeiwazTheGoat]

May I ask why male x male representation is far more sparse than woman x woman? Is it that these execs think it less offensive to allow lesbian representation over gay male representation?

[@spooketh518]

i feel like the MLM representation is extremely lacking in kids cartoons, especially compared to young lesbian rep (like all of steven universe and lumity, korra, etc). The only outright young gay character i can think of is the guy from kibo, the rest i can think of are all only hinted at being gay.

[@keithredacted8154]

EXACTLY, and kipo's mlm rep wasnt even that good because the partner was barely even a side character unlike Steven Universe, Owl House, Korra Adventure Time, She Ra, etc. where the wlw rep was between main charcters and their relationship was important and in the forefront of the show.

[@ZanraiKid]

Thank you so much. Like, I love Korra for giving me the word bisexual, but ever since then I haven’t since many masculine queer characters unless they’re adults like caring dads or family friends. Young kids should know you can be a dude who likes other dudes. I wasn’t even a fan of the Netflix Voltron and what’s done is done, but we could have had a really good canon example of MLM done right.

[@tap5263]

TRUE

[@jimmilton8333]

Yo I was gonna comment this exactly. That's the main issue I have with this stuff in general. Like it's mostly lesbian representation in general, not just these young audience shows. Like that one Christmas movie on Hulu (that was really good tbh). The only men loving men representation for the most part is really bad tv shows written for teens or Oscar bait art house films, no in between

[@lukeyspooky611]

I agree, there is not enough Marxist-Leninist-Maoist representation.

[@l.3ok]

You know what? we need more openly ace/aro characters that aren't just those "I don't like ppl/I don't care for ppl" types

[@rumncoke76]

Yeah, a lot of the time in youth animation characters either want relationships or its not addressed and it's assumed that they don't. And then sometimes you get these "I hate ppl" types. We need more characters who just are not interested in a romantic relationship and it's explicitly stated and treated like a normal thing

[@Idarak1]

Similarly, as a non-aromantic asexual person, I'd appreciate asexual representation that doesn't automatically include aromanticism as well.

[@nanananananananananananana9430]

Bojack Horseman seems to do this very well with Todd. He's asexual but he still ends in a relationship with a girl, just not a sexual one and he also learns to accept that he cannot just be with someone just because their only thing in common is their asexuality and doesn't want to just be labelled as just the asexual weird guy.

[@Tacklepig]

Yes, and we also need ace characters who AREN'T aro, to show that romance doesn't have to be sexual. But the thing is, you basically can't do that without actively delving into the characters' sexuality, and I'd say that goes too far for kids media.

[@Crawver]

@@nanananananananananananana9430 Still feels weird that Todd, the comedy goofball and the butt of a lot of jokes, is one of the best reps for aces. Don't get me wrong, I love him as a character. But it feels he should be one of a few good representations, rather than him being the big one.

[@jimmilton8333]

Honestly, my main issue is the lack of men loving men representation in these shows. It's always WLW relationships in these shows, I'm glad that these characters and relationships exist in these shows now days, but the only MLM representation in these shows is two dads, with the exceptions of Troy and Benson in Kipo. Honestly MLM relationships in most media these days are really lacking IMO. For the most part it's just Oscar bait art house films or really poorly written shows on Netflix for teens.

[@rinothename5563]

I think one of the reason why is some people tend to be kinda ok with wlw relationships. Like, i've seen youtube comments from homophobic people that said they're fine with wlw because its kinda cute for some reason? But then draws the line when its mlm.

[@hi__im_zack4890]

One MLM coded example I can think of is from infinity train season 4. Although since it's very vague, it's honestly hard to tell if they are gay or just really good friends. Regardless, it's not an oscar bait or poorly written type MLM relationship, there is depth.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

Even in anime, MLM is just 2 tall hot dudes in their 20s. There are plenty of anime about a boy loving a girl in high school wherein the dude looks normal but none that I remember where two normal boys like each other in high school. Its as if gay and bi normal teen dudes, who arent tall hunks, dont exist. I think Evangelion nearly had that between Shinji and Kaworu. Some people joke about Naruto and Sasuke having that which is cool in the sense that Naruto is bi and Sasuke is asexual, and Naruto can't express his strong love and attachment for Sasuke other than as rival-friend

[@MackenziiRivers]

Seeing Bow in shera having two dads made me happy but we barely saw them in the seriese. Many side characters were a 'character of tge week' sort of deal so i get that but i still loved tgem. But it'd benice to see a mlm main character who is seena lot with their partner/partner tobe, wether gay, pan or bi.

[@rumncoke76]

It feels like WLW relationships are rare but normalized, but then MLM relationships are both rare and played as a joke pretty often

[@aceofsharks9837]

I'd say we're in a transitional era of representation in media. We're slowly getting more and more representation for race, gender, and sexuality; but we haven't quite hit the cultural stage to go all in without fear of losing money. That's obviously the reason why shows tip toe around gender & sexuality beyond cis-straight. Hell, we're still in the stage were non-white characters are considered inherently political/"forced representation". We're at the point where it'd be remiss to ignore such gender identities and sexualities, but the money making aspect forces the creator/companies to downplay the subject matter. That's why shows like Steven Universe, Owl House, etc. get cancelled after doing something that goes against the grain of subtext. As a specific example; homophobic countries censored Steven Universe's gayness by implying the character Ruby is a guy, so that her relationship with Sapphire would seem hetero instead of lesbian. So when they finally got to their wedding episode, the SU crew had Ruby in the bridal gown and Sapphire in the suit so that such censorship wouldn't be possible.

[@DeathProductions200]

I will say Steven universe did things very well in my opinion with the backlash it had. And I do like the fact they had sapphire who is the usually more feminine one in the suit (basing it on appearance alone, ruby gives more butch vibes). But also, the fact that with there being POC in the show, nobody really cared enough to point that out. And I think it shows a lot more how much harder it is to get queer characters in shows. Like you said. Its hard already to get a non white character as the main character. Hell I remember when the nrw star wars films got shit for their main character being a woman. But its all relative. You have a woman and person of color as the two main characters, the person of color will be pointed out first. If its a POC and the show has a LOT of queer coding, the queer coding will get point out first. In the end, we unfortunately can't just go all in. We have to play it strategically which is where I agree with vaush a lot more here in how to get it done. Its not possible in the current moment without backlash. I do agree that there isn't enough good representation though, and we should work for it. But then it does bring up the question of "how do we do it properly"

[@aceofsharks9837]

@@DeathProductions200 Yeah, for however long this traditional era lasts, less thorough bits of representation is going to be the norm. But, that doesn't mean there won't be exceptions. For example, the new Star Wars trilogy original had Finn set to be the protagonist, but sidelined him in favor of Rey. Although there would be backlash either way, it's comparatively more manageable & subsequently marketable to face sexist backlash rather than racist. One day, hopefully sooner than later, we'll hit the point where studios feel confident enough to not bend the knee to such hateful people & places. I'd say things like Spiderverse, Encanto, and similar movies are paying the way for racial inclusion. Unfortunately, I can't think of comparative examples for the gender & sexuality front.

[@DeathProductions200]

@@aceofsharks9837 well I think with stuff like spiderverse where it takes place in areas where you would expect to see a minority in a America, there's less backlash. But, I do know black panther got a ton of back lash for having a small number of white characters. So, ultimately we live in the era where even if it is explainable, for example if a movie took place in Mexico, and you see a Mexican (a shocker i know) there still will be backlash about something. Would I like it to be a thing where "tomorrow and you could show any minority without it being considered pandering, or get hateful backlash". Yes, absolutely. Im hoping within the rest of my 20s it'll happen, but being realistic with how slow progress has actually been for queer people (we have made massive jumps in progress dont get me wrong, but its a slow process in the end anyway) I don't think we can reasonably say that queer representation won't he normalized until gen alpha is in their 20s or 30s. Thats the only way it could make any reasonable sense at least.

[@aceofsharks9837]

@@DeathProductions200 Although we're fighting an uphill battle, it's human nature to grow and change for the better. As each day goes by, we inch closer and closer to a future of greater equality and empathy. One day, "forced diversity" will be an utterly nonsensical phrase, abandoned although.

[@DeathProductions200]

@@aceofsharks9837 oh absolutely! Ultimately the battle shouldn't even be fought since the majority agree about trans rights queer rights (in america). But its due to the invisible monster conservatives created that make it hard for us. As for developing nations, a lot tend to follow what the more progressive countries do anyway since we do offer assistance (not enough). In the end, likely for me at the age of 20, ill see the time where all forms of major hate, sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia be eradicated. But the question i want to know is "when will i see it?". Of course we still are making progress. Every time we can get away with subtle representation it shows a HUGE improvement. And once subtle representation is fine, we can progressively get away with more explicit (age appropriate specifically) rep. Itll take time, and in the end, we just have to continue pressing. Im hoping for the best, I personally would like to see it be, when I hit 30 media representation being at its best. Cause that is the step to stopping hatred from spreading

[@MrRizeAG]

I'm sorry but I have no idea what this person was trying to say. Every time an example was provided, the response was "Yes, that's good, but actually I want this", and then another example was provided, to which the response was "Okay yes that's nice, but actually I want this". For so long people fought for any representation at all, and we got queer-coded villains. Then people fought for POSITIVE representation, and we got tokenism. Then people fought for queer characters to be treated as normal and not exceptional, and slowly but surely, we've gotten that more and more. But now you want queer characters to be treated like tokens again for the purpose of education? I realize that's an uncharitable interpretation of this argument, but it feels like that's the inevitable outcome here. Either you want queer characters to be treated as unexceptional, or you want them to be used as tools for education. I think both are good in their own contexts, but you can't do both simultaneously. Either their queerness is interesting to the show or it isn't. You don't need to synthesize these two good options, you just need to utilize them in different situations.

[@wacksonjittemore4013]

Makes sense one of their good representation examples is a Star Trek episode they never saw. It's like when someone on Reddit pitches an idea for a video game/book/movie and people say "omg that's amazing!!" because their imagination is filling in the blanks.

[@hoobajoo]

Yeah I feel like this person is just determined to be vaguely unsatisfied by literally all representation in media

[@SPenrose1987]

@@hoobajoo No! I'm not! Maybe I was a bit stuttery and unfocused in this but just wanna make it clear that I'm after more equal representation for amab queer characters and fewer stereotypes/tropes being used. That's literally it.

[@lzmunch]

I feel like the last sentence says it all--we don't always need to have a and b in the same media, as long as either is used appropriately and proportionally in enough pieces of media

[@SPenrose1987]

@@lzmunch but different pieces of media are consumed by different demographics

[@Adze99]

I'm a huge fan of the She-ra reboot, but I have to admit a lot of the points made by the caller hit home. I do think Vaush also has a point about how difficult it is to walk the line between tokenism and pandering, especially if the show is aimed at ages eight to ten, but hopefully as society grows and changes, this caller will see more of the change they are looking for.

[@Tacklepig]

"walk the line between tokenism and pandering"? Both are bad and shouldn't happen. There's no "line" to walk there. Give artists full creative freedom, if they want to make diverse characters, they will, if they don't, they won't. Part of proper representation is also that not every group is always represented everywhere, and that you don't include something JUST to have representation. If you leave artists full control, some artists WILL make diverse characters, simply because it makes sense for the character to be gay/bi/trans/whatever in their artistic vision. And that's the only way you end up having GOOD representation, if you end up having characters that organically make sense and also happen to be that thing.

[@NoNo-fr2ev]

Does She-ra get better after season 1? Season 1 has been very mid

[@botanic3428]

@@NoNo-fr2evIt does in my opinion, a lot, and for me it really paid off in the end. Especially season 5 is pretty fucking great.

[@NoNo-fr2ev]

@@botanic3428 Good to know

[@Adze99]

@@NoNo-fr2ev Seconded. S1 is definitely mid. But by the end I think it's amazing.

[@IceFireTerry]

This person in the beginning said that animation is on a decline but I disagree. Even adult animation is getting good with stuff like Arcane, Final Space, Invincible, and others. I think cartoon network and the other tv networks net to get on board with streaming because canceling infinity train & the owl house hurts them while Netflix is killing it with the cartoon shows

[@jimmilton8333]

Yeah but those three you mentioned are adult animation shows (maybe Arcane is more pg-13 than adult exclusive), that market is thriving, meanwhile shows like infinity train and owl house are being canceled, it feels like the only animation there will be is animations for literal todlers and animation for adults, no in between.

[@simonjaz1279]

@@jimmilton8333 SPONGEBOB lol

[@jimmilton8333]

@@simonjaz1279 eh, hasn't been good since season 4 or the movie imo, just another milked dry show like family guy or the Simpsons, my hot take.

[@simonjaz1279]

@@jimmilton8333 I actually agree except with family guy. The newer stuff is okay imo. Some of their best was when things wernt so "pc" but hey, we can't win em all. Peeps be too sensitive.

[@SPenrose1987]

I literally never said that though. Also, final space is shit and for every Bob's burgers or rick and morty there's 5 Netflix originals that were shat out within about 3 months of each other.

[@newsoupvialt]

There is an argument that I think went unaddressed here Part of the reason people are secretive about their deadname, trans status etc. *can* be (but doesn't have to be, or be limited to) that people in the real world will be weird about it. They'll see and treat you differently. My deadname doesn't hurt because it's wrong, it's because in the contexts I hear it, it has an invalidating result. Animated shows have the option of depicting idealized realities we're trying to get to, especially when handling minorities. And in a society where trans people are 100% accepted & everyone has gotten super good at always using the right names and pronouns, I'm sure at least some trans people would be much louder about being trans, much less secretive about their deadname, etc. All this is to say: A trans person in a show being very openly trans would *not* actually feel *that* out of place if the society in that show's world is written to be more trans accepting than our current real society.

[@andreja9425]

This is very true and also I feel like I’m in a minority but sometimes it would be nice to showcase a world that isn’t perfectly accepting that more accurately represents our world. Like I enjoy it when a characters identity is just verbatim accepted everywhere too don’t get me wrong, but every day when i go outside that isn’t the reality i face and it would be nice to have some characters who struggle with that too to relate to. Especially in a world that is already somewhat dark or hostile to people in general. Idk I guess I just like bleaker settings and characters who have to overcome a lot of bs and still find power within

[@MrGizzyRey]

As a 26 year old queer man, I've been estatic about ALL of the representation lately. And nos that we've gotten I think we're being a little too hyper critical

[@PlatinumAltaria]

There's no such thing as being "too critical". Criticism is the healthy adult way to look at media.

[@siddharthkrishna8463]

@@PlatinumAltaria until it gets unhealthy because we forget to see how far we've come

[@professordreadwin7959]

These past few years have given us some of the best lgbt representation in animation and I really don't wanna look a gift horse in the mouth because some people feel like it's "not enough"

[@lemonadechamp4281]

Ur show is hideous, disgusting, so glad it got cancelled lol

[@Boyd2342]

@@lemonadechamp4281 BRUH the aggression

[@kye4216]

@@lemonadechamp4281 gay rage

[@TheFuriousMulatto]

For the LGBTQ, nothing will ever be enough.

[@LuisMartinez-jk3yo]

@@lemonadechamp4281 how so?

[@jellewijckmans4836]

When it comes to all lesbians couples seemingly being the same I would like to point out that across all straight media about 95% of all couples fit pretty tightly in like 3 archetypes. Gay people have the right to have representation that isn't just a bunch of tropes but let's not forget that most representation of any group is going to be tropes. Having fully fleshed out characters takes a ton of work and any media is likely to have way more NPCs defined by a couple of tropes then full characters with a rich emotional world. Especially considering most media tends to have romance thrown in just because it's expected and pandars to specific crowds most of it ends up lazy and shit. If you want a group to be included in media that is going to involve them being included in lazy ways as most media is shit.

[@grantlauzon5237]

I agree. It’s easy to make a story with diverse characters. It’s hard to make a story with good characters. That being said Owl House is both.

[@SPenrose1987]

yeah I mean, when's the last time a kid's show had an earnest, romantically framed couple with the lead characters involved that wasn't played for a joke that was between two guys? I legit can't think of any examples

[@jellewijckmans4836]

@@SPenrose1987 I mean I'm an adult so I quite frankly don't watch most kids cartoons so me not remembering a thing happening doesn't mean all that much. Now if you are assuming I meant with my original comment that there are no more issues with representation period and people should just shut up about it then I would like to clarify that, that was not the intended point. My point was simply that pointing at lazy writing existing for gay characters on it's own doesn't make a great point.

[@MomsterGirl]

Agreed, this is another point in favor of MORE of *all* positive representation. Is some of it gonna be less than good? Sure. That goes for literally *all* media, be it about straights, gays, bi's, enbies, whatever it may be.

[@SPenrose1987]

@@MomsterGirl representation can be bad I just want straight people to see representatives of the queer community in their media diet

[@meow.36903]

she's literally just saying "I want the gay rep, but they can't act gay" like she literally has a problem that these characters are queer coded in the first place...

[@NickTheGreatAndPowerful]

Yeah, I don't think that they actually know what it is they want. Because I sure don't, and I listened to them try and fail to explain it for an hour.

[@dipsheets]

Yeah,,, its like a weird self queer hate? I feel like her point leans towards wanting queer representation but conforming to cishet narrative

[@ImaginaryMdA]

This was a very good disagreement. Not antagonistic, just a difference of opinion.

[@TheCountOfMommysCrisco]

There's one really good example of trans representation which I think was way ahead of its time - Faris from Final Fantasy 5. This character is a member of your party for nearly an entire act before it's revealed that the rough-and-tumble pirate captain who has been your 4th member this whole time is actually AFAB. The two male protagonists go all Wojack when they find out, Faris tries to not make a big deal out of it, and the female member of the party steps up to basically say "Yeah, okay, Faris has tits. Get over it, we have work to do." and then the entire rest of the game continues on without any further mention of it.

[@Envy11235]

@Raul Faris never goes into their identity though. How can you say they are "just a tomboy"? Imho if anything they would identify with agender or non binary. Based off how they react when the warriors of light learn they are afab and tie into the fact that use "Ore" instead of "Watashi" in the initial Japanese script. If anything people are just coding them as female based off this idea that non binary people (which is probably closer to Faris' identity) can't exist in fantasy. Like yes, they do wonder what if it would be like if they were raised as a Princess they accept that they weren't and that their pirate crew is their family and they are happy with who they are. Which is honestly a pretty fucking enby story line if you ask me.

[@SonplaysMinEcraft]

That's...not trans at all, just girl crossdressing as boy. She can be trans or enby or whatever in your headcanon but y'all really need to cool it with the tomboy erasure

[@TheCountOfMommysCrisco]

@@SonplaysMinEcraft It's as close to trans as one can expect from a Japanese rpg developed in 1992.

[@XiaoYueMao]

@@Envy11235 "into the fact that use "Ore" instead of "Watashi" in the initial Japanese script." just FYI, saying "ore" doesnt mean you identify as aman, asian pronouns do NOT signify gender, they are more common for one or the other, but arent absolute. "ore" is a "boyish" pronoun, and when a girl says it, its USUALLY because they are a tomboy/butch, or a delinquent (when a woman uses it, they sound "rough" hence its common among delinquents, which includes pirates) ...... Faris using ore doesnt prove anything about identity, in fact them being a Pirate almost entirely explains the use of ore, pirates are thieves, delinquents of the sea, therefore ore expresses that idea

[@Junosensei]

As an actual fluent Japanese speaker who played (but never finished...) FF5, Faris explicitely revealed she was a woman in Japanese. "Ore" is, as has been said, "masculine" in the sense that it's ruff'n'tuff, but pretty much every ruff'n'tuff woman uses it. As a trans person myself, I do find it a bit frustrating to see Japanese authors play with gender tropes to a pleasingly absurd except, but due to a lack of widespread public knowledge, they never seem to take that extra step to a full on identity. For instance, Re:Zero has a really deep side cast and one of the deepest explored side cast in side material has actually been Ferris. If you just watch the anime, Ferris probably comes off as a bi crossdresser (they like Crusch, but tease Subaru a lot) who identifies explicitely as a boy with a feminine name, but has a more masculine dead name (Felix) they HATE being mentioned in public. However, in the side novels, there's a chapter that is titled "Felix Argyle Is a Pretty Boy". And despite the title, it starts off showing us Ferris' daily routine when they wake up, look into the mirror, feel relieved they inherited their mother's lack of body hair, feel at home in their dress, and repeat "Ferris is a pretty girl!" over and over to themself. They also very much enjoy being "mistaken" for a girl and hid their AMAB designation from their other best friend for years. It's like, "How is Ferris not trans?" And the answer is simple, imho. The straight Japanese author, Tappei, probably didn't realize he wrote a character with dysphoria. I can picture a scenario where someone genuinely tries to create a gender-bending character and then writes them logically trans... just without the explicit recognition that they are pretty much trans. I see a lot of Japanese characters like that. Heck, Ferris treats their old name as a dead name because it's the name their father gave them (their father is... a bad dude). Total characterization, not intended to be a trans allegory. ...Unless...? For the record, Crusch, Ferris's master and love crush, is AFAB trans-masc coded against their family's wishes, too. Kinda like a mirror of Ferris, but because straight white prince boy best friend (lol) wanted Crusch to wear a formal dress and desperately beat them in a duel for that honor before their death, Crusch wears the dress on special occasions to honor that wish. Otherwise, they explicitely say dressing feminine makes them uncomfortable. Again, trans? Nnnnnnnoooot officially. But close enough that, like Ferris, I betray the default story canon to give them ambiguous pronouns as a personal preference. I just wish these kinds of characters weren't so frustratingly toting the line because otherwise, I think they are VERY well written and could be an example of some of the best LGBTQ+ anime/LN/manga/game characters for representation in Japan. Alas, they are written as they are written. (Btw, check out actual queer authors like famed Takako Shimura for really good LGBTQ+ rep! Hourou Musuko/Wandering Son is unambiguously about trans kids.)

[@MackenziiRivers]

To me people whobsay its 'not enough' bum me out so much. I'm nonbinary and compared to the LGB and binary T, we've had less rep but god, i adore Double Trouble so much. Some people call them 'othering' because they arent as human as other characters like Bow or Glimma but i dont see that as an issue because nobody complained about Catra? A human-cat lesbian. Plus considering this is suppose to be an alien world where reptilian like sapient beings are treated just as well as the humans, i see no issues. Not every rep has tobe 100 percent human. If you have anthros in your franchise might as well utalize them for some flair in the main cast. I could be bias as i find humans boring compared to literally anything else but meh. I don't think we should take thigs like ATLA/SU/MLP for granted when it comes to queer rep. They walked so Shera PoP, Owl House and others could run.

[@a1t3rmusic]

so true! plus when it comes to representation everyone has a different idea of how they wanna be represented so all that can be done is giving people more representation that showcases that variety.

[@SPenrose1987]

are you fucking kidding me in terms of kids animation it's SO much easier to get in an envy character. Owl house, SU, She-Ra all have enby characters and yet NONE have canon binary trans men or women.

[@yellowtheyellow]

I like robot and alien enbys just fine, but I do find myself frequently seeking out human enby representation. I wouldn't ask She-Ra to change, but I think it would be weird if all enbies in media were like She-Ra's. One of my favorite enby characters from recent media was Niko Arris from Magic The Gathering. A lot of people talk about how Ashiok is better representation but I personally completely disagree. I enjoy that Niko is obviously human but still bucks presentational trends. I enjoy that they are a heroic character who fills a specific narrative and mechanical niche within the context of the franchise with their own goals, history and superpowers all completely unrelated to the fact that they're a they/them.

[@electroseal5822]

Truuuuuu! If the character feels relatable and like an actual person who gives a damn if they are human or not? But i would also mention that its ok if you want more human rep

[@gregchezick7757]

I did find it weird how they seemed to equate Hollywood pandering tokenism and a show made by 100ish% LGBT people as if it is the same. Calling Stevenson a Sugar wannabe is also just comes off as a weird bias, as if anything that comes after is just a cynical ripoff. I found their points extremely contradictory at worse and meandering at best. Not the best polite convo I have heard here.

[@Xeridanus]

One way you can include trans characters without explicitly talking about "The Genitals!": Have a character forced to meet someone from before they transitioned. Sense 8 and Star Trek both did this rather well, but they're not kid shows. However, you can still take that element and put it in a kids show. Maybe the trans character changed schools and transitioned at the same time? You could even have a point about their deadname still being on the roll call because the admin hasn't changed that yet or something.

[@thevoid3010]

Damn I feel that. Literally happened to me and a friend from HS Met them once, later she’s trans, and they pushed but were never able to change the name on the roster It always sucked when a sub came in and dead named her

[@DieNibelungenliad]

One way I can imagine is have a male character in the early episodes, then have that character "look" female (long hair, women's clothes, women's name) in later episodes. It ain't perfect, because it does enforce gender stereotypes, but its a start and lets be honest, most female cartoon characters have "female characteristics" like longer eyelashes and longer hair and higher voice

[@Tacklepig]

@@DieNibelungenliad idk, I feel like enforcing stereotypes is ultimately more harmful than just giving representation. How about just... a female character with a male voice actor? Them identifying obviously as female, but the voice and appearance can leave it somewhat ambiguous still, or at least imply that it's part of who they are. Plus, most cartoon characters are so stylized that gender can be somewhat ambiguous depending on the design, anyways. I think that's way better than forcing stereotypes on it or having an active transition during the story.

[@amberrichards2778]

@@Tacklepig Butt Witch from 12 Forever

[@Xeridanus]

@@Tacklepig Otis from Back at the Barnyard is cannonically trans. Because he has a male name, male voice actor, but also udders like a cow, while the bulls don't. At one point another character talks about how he used to hang with Otis' sister, Otis corrects that he doesn't have a sister. The friend says, "Oh right, that was you wasn't it?" Then the scene continues. There's also Dad from Cow and Chicken who says "This is the best decision I've made since I decided to be a man!" or something like that. It's subtle but also hilarious and very fitting with the rest of the show's humour. I think these are great examples to bring up as positive representation.

[@AlmightyThagomizer]

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I suspect that this person's "British stiff upper lip" or whatever it is within them that is repulsed by kid's media is having an impact on their analysis here. It feels telling that the one positive example they keep returning to is from a shooter game, but they dismiss all of the cartoons as not being good enough. It feels like they don't really know exactly what it is they want.

[@exalteddjinn69]

I thought the same thing.

[@D4n1t0o]

I think it is the cultural difference, but not a negative one on the British side. See, the American misapprehension might be Alexandria is in some way repulsed, hedging or subdued, when in reality it's just a matter of different cultural coding and approach. In the case of the UK, an approach and cultural coding that has resulted in an all-round more pro-LGBT nation and preferable LGBT history. I think Americans would be wise to listen to more people like Alexandria.

[@exalteddjinn69]

@@D4n1t0o I would rather people push against cultural values than play within it.

[@zzmoonz]

@@D4n1t0o lies and cope as a Brit thats factually inaccurate. Uk maybe more pro and favourable to the lgb but not the t and even then the lgb is heavily stigmatized. I mean for godsake we had section 28 the idea our lgbt history has been preferable is laughable, like yeah maybe compared to the us and not the european countries next door ig. Personally the weird british 'stiff upper lip' sensibility has done more to harm sexuality in this country than gay afab acoustic players ever could.

[@SPenrose1987]

Hi, Alex here. My stiff upper lip of being British or what have you is just a cultural thing. It's a middle/upper class mannerism to keep a poker face on in the presence of displays of affection. What I meant by this is that I found some of the shows with like, 90% LGBTQ cast to be kinda cringe sometimes. I think SU is lovely and I adore it but to some extent, it's definitely suffered from a very American form of over-expression of emotion.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

Ideally, a gay or a trans presence should be subtle, but the conservative reaction should be expected and ignored because it will always happen no matter how subtle.

[@Tooopper]

Yeah. While there are people that will get turned off at being proselytized at too much, usually if you turn them off, it’s because of bad quality media anyways. Other than that, which you can get around with some artistic restraint, conservatives and the like will get mad regardless. One of my roommates from my alt-right days would get mad just because somebody casually talked about a same sex crush they had once. They’re lost. Just stay the course and hopefully they’ll eventually recede into the abyss where they belong.

[@Lanoira13]

Ideally there should be a variety of ways gay and trans presences manifest, subtle, overt, in between, and even occasionally never brought up to the point you probably wouldn't know until someone told you and you watched it back, though that ideally shouldn't be the only rep in a work. Ideally none of the above should be the sole way queer people or issues are dealt with in a piece of media.

[@billieeisenhower406]

Nope, literally straight representation has been rubbed in everyone's faces for centuries. Our representation should not be subtle, we're not background props, we're human beings.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

@@billieeisenhower406 I'm bi. I'm not speaking from a place of opposing gay representation

[@Tooopper]

@@billieeisenhower406 I mean….true, but I prefer Lanny’s. I get your sentiment and I don’t mind works with more overt messaging. But diverse messaging is ultimately useful. I don’t want representation to spite the straights (I guess that doesn’t mean much considering that I’m straight). We want it for progress. So the more pipelines to accommodate different modes of engagement, the better.

[@Charolette21]

The type of trans rep the caller wants is actually in Cyberpunk 2077 in the form of Claire. All the hints we have is a cople of trans flags on her car's dashboard and as a decal on the bumber, her casually mentioning her transition, and in her bio in the game's inventory menu.

[@pentagrammusic3385]

So what I’m hearing is that JoJo is the best straightest gayest show? Hell yeah!

[@QuartzIsAnOxide]

There's a girl in Helluva Boss whom you only figure out is trans because she has male imp horns. I think that's as good as it gets.

[@simonjaz1279]

But also...like....rnt they supposed to be the opposite gender? How r u supposed to know they transitioned (and also then, who cares as long as you recognize them for who they want to be)?

[@MackenziiRivers]

Are you being sarcastic? Sorry i can't tell.

[@QuartzIsAnOxide]

@@MackenziiRivers No? I think a lot of trans people wouldn't feel comfortable sharing their past with strangers. They only do in some shows because uncreative writers want you to know that they are but don't know of any way besides telling you. Regardless of topic, that's bad writing. Ideally it should be hinted at, but not spoken of. Admittedly, this is something you can only do with non-human characters, since human dimorphism isn't _as_ apparent.

[@stevenheibner]

Needed some lo-fi debate beats to chill to, to take my mind off the whole Betty White dying thing. Thanks for this.

[@Frankthegb]

Bro wtf how is broadcasting a reminder of it to everyone who watches this completely unrelated video “taking your mind off it”?

[@stevenheibner]

@Raul Random celebrity who is a beloved icon, a household name for anyone in the US who wasn't born after 9/11, was an advocate for civil rights when your dad was knee-high, and worked with organizations like GLAAD, The Trevor Project and the SPCA. Like it's fine if you're 12 or a sociopathic conservative, just say that.

[@stevenheibner]

@@Frankthegb because immediately after posting this I proceeded to focus on the discussion and the game I was playing and stopped thinking about it? Did you mean to say "by posting this reminder you've made me think about it and now I'm upset?" That'd be a valid point. 👌

[@chazza8670]

One of the things I like about Steven Universe is that when Sapphire and Ruby meet and fuse, the reveal isn’t that they are lesbian, but that they are a fusion. Just normalising LGBTQ+ like it should be

[@EatingYourWAFFLES]

I really hate nitpicking trans or gay representation like this, especially when the writers clearly put forth a good effort. The issue with this debate is that there's absolutely no such thing as "one-size-fits-all" LGBT representation. If She-Ra made someone out there more accepting of trans or gay people, or just provided gay kids with the type of saccharine content they wanted, I think it succeeded. If Big Mouth helped familiarize its audience with trans issues in a positive way, I think it succeeded. Trans people vary widely in how they prefer seeing trans characters depicted in media. So the key thing is just having MORE trans characters depicted in all types of different ways. From subtle nods to a perfectly happy/secure character being trans, to stories that focus on the realistic struggles a character faces with being trans, to fantasy stories where characters change gender through magical means. As long as a character is respected as a trans person and doesn't enforce destructive right wing talking points about trans people, that is generally good representation. Cis people or more cynical trans audiences vary widely in what they will accept. Some will balk at any show that feels like "pandering", which is why edgier trans icons can also be great. Such as Togata from Fire Punch or even Dr. Girlfriend from The Venture Bros. Everyone has different needs in this situation.

[@Nillllllllllllll]

Hot take: Big Mouth is actually pretty great and if I had access to it in my teens it would've been a much better sexual education than the lack of it I received in Idaho. I guarantee it's making a massive amount of people less stupid in rural communities

[@abhuman802]

"All nonbinary people wanna be shapeshifters irl, right?" I feel so called out right now omg.

[@KalinTheZola]

I can empathize with her, but I think for me I'm just more of a "visibility at all costs" kind of person. Granted I also think we're at a point where it's important to push for good representation of all kinds, but I Also don't want to demonize an attempt that is overall good for the time it came out but imperfect all the same. I've done a deep dive into a lot of historical queer representation and I think doing so really helps you frame where we've been and where we are now. Maybe it's a difference between being a half glass full or half glass empty kind of person idk

[@a1t3rmusic]

yeah i absolutely get this

[@Lanoira13]

Yeah, I have a hard time with this criticism 'cause I'm just like ... We've had enough "subtle", we've had more queerbaiting and barely there canon 5 second references than you could shake a stick at. The shows being referenced are distinctly pointedly queer media, by queer creators, who are making the rep THEY want to see. It feels super "Mm, but why do you have to be so gay about being gay, why do you have to make it a big deal? Can't you just be normal and quietly be gay in a way I barely have to know about?" when it's literally queer people making what they want to make to the extent they are allowed to do so by execs. For years people denied us overt representation with the excuse/dismissal "if you want representation on your terms make it yourself". And that's exactly what people are doing now. If this person wants to go ahead and take a step back and make a baity "trans in only a single subtle reference that'll be cut out in china" character, then well, be the deprogression you wanna see in the world I guess, but don't act like it's revolutionary 5 star representation, because we HAVE had that before, for a long time, and it was distinctly because of queerphobia and it wasn't particularly fun for a lot of people.

[@a1t3rmusic]

@@Lanoira13 yeah i find people who think representation needs to be a certain kind of way and that way only a little weird. i think the more representation we can get the better. we need it all whether subtle or not but i personally would love more overt stuff.

[@KalinTheZola]

@@a1t3rmusic It definitely wasn't intentional on her part and I'm not bringing it up to say they're 1:1 because there are major differences, but some of what was said made me think of justifications of the haze code which is a major component on why it has taken so long to see good queer representation.

[@LucasDarkGiygas]

What this person wants is impossible to get

[@SPenrose1987]

ok doomer

[@LucasDarkGiygas]

@@SPenrose1987 The person said it themself. "it's like i want to have the cake and eat it too"

[@SPenrose1987]

@@LucasDarkGiygas I am the person. If what I said sounded like that, then you weren't listening.

[@LucasDarkGiygas]

@@SPenrose1987 Oh i did listen. Live, in fact. It was unbearable. It made me hope that said animation studios don't get demotivated by seeing people like you who are IMPOSSIBLE to please complaining about how they represent queer people.

[@SPenrose1987]

@@LucasDarkGiygas you clearly weren’t engaging with my good faith critiques. My issue is with studios, not creators

[@kap1618]

Most lgbt+ representation is wlw, which is cool but in the gay/bi spaces i hang out with gay guys still feel like they're being ignored.

[@kap1618]

@@Ass_of_Amalek yeah i know. Lesbians are almost always seen less threatening to heterosexual audiences. Gay men on the other hand scares the crap out of straight parents.

[@rumncoke76]

Alex says some dumb shit here but her frustration is completely understandable and she is extremely good faith and pretty measured here, I respect that

[@dustinproffitt9824]

I was so frustrated that nobody brought up infinity train, which has one of the best queer coded characters in Lake. The show literally has an entire season dedicated to a characters journey which exists as a metaphor for being trans.

[@andrewlyon4495]

It did? (Not knocking your reading, but any trans allegory went right over my cis head)

[@Xeridanus]

Isn't that the problem though? Neither of them wanted a metaphor any more.

[@dustinproffitt9824]

@@andrewlyon4495 Think about Lake's story from a trans perspective. Everyone always expects her to be this totally other person that isn't her, but she wants to be her own person. Her whole story is about both finding her identity and fighting to have that identity respected. What makes her allegory such a good one is that, often in trans metaphors a character will start as one thing and become another, but lake doesn't. The thing lake wants to be is what she always was from the beginning, a person. And sometimes it felt like the universe itself disagreed with that (the porters not recognizing her, one one insisting he had to keep helping passengers, etc) but she knew she was a real, unique person and she never stopped fighting to prove it.

[@dustinproffitt9824]

@@Xeridanus The caller specifically said she wanted trans people to be portrayed in metaphor. While I do typically agree having LGBT people only represented through allegory, especially with non human characters such as lake is generally a problematic trend, in this case I'd argue that lake is one of the most well executed examples of this and the metaphor adds a lot to the commentary beyond what could be done if she had just been a trans person.

[@Xeridanus]

@@dustinproffitt9824 Ah, yes. It was a little hard to keep track of her point. I do think Sense 8 did a great job of handling a trans character, but what else do you expect from both a trans director and actor. In that show the trans woman has to meet with an old friend who knew her before she transitioned. They meet, old friend doesn't recognise her. "It's me, but I go by ____ now." Old friend: "Holy shit." *awkward moment while old friend looks her up and down perhaps too long* "You look good." At least, that's how I remember it.

[@Regenmacher175]

I'm a cis-het guy and I enjoyed She-Ra, Steven Universe, The Owl House, etc. With regard to LGBTQ rep in She-ra specifically, I can see both sides expressed here but the relatable, well-written characters, cool storyline (which specifically revolves around the relationship between the main protagonist and the antagonist) and the fun world kept me invested and it was awesome to see a show that portrayed all kinds of members of the LGBTQ+ community in a world where the characters are just fine with who they are. It's one of my favourite shows.

[@samescourt3801]

Well said and I definitely agree. Whether it could have been done better or not the show is still an objective net positive for LGBTQ+ rep in media.

[@hi__im_zack4890]

I think a good trans/NB character in a kids show was Lake from infinity train. However, it was kinda subtle as if the writers were playing it safe. It would be nice to have characters that aren't just queer coded but actually trans. With that said, Lake was the best trans/NB character I've seen.

[@nanananananananananananana9430]

Was Lake really canonically nonbinary/trans tho? I think it works very well as an allegory, sure but she's referred by only female pronouns and she is the reflection of a human cis girl.

[@electroseal5822]

@@nanananananananananananana9430 Non binary people can use she/her pronouns as well, she also likes to dress in an androgynous way. Free, without the need of any labels, no longer reduced to someone else's reflection. Idk at least thats what i understood from it.

[@billieeisenhower406]

Let me guess, everyone else or atleast most other characters are straight on that show?

[@thevoid3010]

I feel like it’s a bit silly to say that She Ra is a problem for being too gay, like it’s siphoning the gay characters from other possible shows. For me it seems clear that they have so many characters because the creators and fans have been starved for representation so they put in as much as they can when they have the chance. Even her idea that they won’t have rep in the future because they gave the one show is proven wrong, because Kipo had good rep too, not as much, but that wasn’t the focus. Really these shows are pushing the ball for what we can put out there, showing that there’s interest and that it’s not going to hurt a show, but can boost it

[@AlmightyThagomizer]

It almost sounds like she’s saying that She-Ra expended all of the queer community’s mana so they wouldn’t be able to summon any new characters for new shows.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Making a show where every character is gay isn't good representation just because there's more gay in it. Good representation accurately depicts the experiences of real people, it doesn't pander to what executives think gay people want (which is apparently what straight people want: a world where they're the only people around).

[@photografo9240]

@@PlatinumAltaria Not every show about queer people should be about our struggles and how about bigots are bad. We don't need every show to be a period piece about how being gay/trans/bi/whatever is hard and sucks. We're allowed to have comfy escapist shows, trashy romcoms, or just, ya know, shows where there's alot of queer people and it's not a big deal, it just is. She-ra is great rep because it's a great show, not because everyone is LGBT+.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

@@photografo9240 I'm not saying there can't be any shows with a large gay cast. I'm saying I don't want to have to drink from the gay water fountain.

[@thevoid3010]

@@PlatinumAltaria I don’t know if you got the point I made? It’s not about whether or not the rep is good or bad, It’s about the reasons why some shows have a lot of rep and if that leads to less rep in the future

[@mightytaco123]

i just want native american representation and i wont be happy until theres as much native americans in tv shows as there are black people and white people

[@cineful]

I'm very confused about exactly which audience she wants to appeal to so it doesnt feel like pandering and just saying 'mainstream audience' doesnt clue into whose being targeted unless we mean mainstream to equal cis and straight parents? or is it kids in general? There is already a struggle for animation to be taken 'seriously' still. There is LGBTQ rep in live action 'mainstream' shows too that could be discussed but within her focus on animation it felt there was a fundamental misunderstanding on how 'mainstream' viewership/TV works for animation which carries into LGBTQ rep in animation as result.

[@StuartAtkinson4467]

I don't like how much this fellow Brit is cringing at "too queer" stuff

[@KeshmarOrange]

I'd like to know what "queer culture" is. For She-Ra, it just seems like the queer characters are just -there-. No one's shoving it in your face. I don't see anything someone should be complaining about.

[@Xeridanus]

Queer culture is the setting for Q Force. People who aren't in Queer Culture wouldn't get some of the jokes or references there. But Queer Culture isn't exclusive to queer people. Cishet people, like myself, can be a part of it just by having a lot of queer friends, a queer girlfriend, watching queer shows and content creators, that sort of thing. It's a sub culture in the same way gaming is. Have you ever tried to talk about a video game to someone who's never played one? Or only played the latest FIFA? There's nothing to connect over. They're not in gamer culture.

[@thevoid3010]

She Ra is one of the most gay things I’ve ever seen (in all of the best ways) It’s hard to describe but it’s not just people being gay, but how people talk and the shows esthetics It’s like a rain is filter everything is going through

[@KeshmarOrange]

@@thevoid3010 ​ Well that explains why the aesthetics are so comfy. It looks way better than the She-Ra I grew up with. Far better. How they talk though? I honestly never noticed anything that... honestly, maybe I just don't know what I'm looking for.

[@KeshmarOrange]

@@Xeridanus I'm queer and I have a lot of queer friends too. Though I can honestly say that it's still all new to me, so I'm still learning. I love the She-Ra reboot and have been finding out more and more about it every day. Things like this still go over my head, unfortunately. Or maybe I'm so used to them that the "gay coding" in even my new friend groups doesn't seem like a new thing to me...? I don't know what I should be looking for with regards to this, to be quite honest.

[@SPenrose1987]

if you think I was complaining that She-ra was "too queer in your face" then I'm sorry, but you weren't even listening to me

[@chairmanhiro7401]

"Owl House was cancelled because it wasn't profitable enough" ....I'm fairly certain it was literally their most popular show. Also "they wouldn't have signed onto this without knowing how gay it would be"....yes, yes they would. This is a long standing tactic by animators to hide the "real shit" in their show until later because they know it would make it harder to get greenlit. Steven Universe did this, Animaniacs did this with the censors constantly. Korra did this. Gravity Falls did this. Many more. Was she-ra obnoxiously saccharine and laid it on super thick, which then made it feel really trope-y/token-y? From what I've heard and what little I've seen of it, yeah. But the majority of this callers arguments aren't against overdone tokenization, they're against ANY depiction of queer characters that doesn't meet their VERY SPECIFIC definition of "good enough". I get a vibe that this person just actually doesn't want to be reminded of the personal/political issues they deal with as a trans person, and then gets upset when their escapism of cartoons portrays those issues to them, as opposed to presenting a perfect universe where trans/etc people are so normalized it's not even talked about. The big mouth example is a big one. For one, that character DOES come back, and two, that character is someone who recently transitioned and the episode is very much about the personal/social issues they have to deal with as a trans person, even from people who are on their side. For this caller to watch that, knowing that Big Mouth is basically a sex ed cartoon about puberty and self discovery and whatnot, and STILL complain that the character dared to talk about being trans instead of just handwaving the entire issue and smiling at the camera the entire episode, is very telling. I genuinely suspect they just want their entertainment to not remind them of real issues and only depict the exact, perfectly written for them, totally unchallenging world they want to see. This is someone who will literally NEVER be satisfied with representation unless they write it themselves, because they'll write it solely for themself.

[@SPenrose1987]

Hi. You're talking about me. Please stop patholagising me like you're Jordan Peterson or something just based on me taking an hour to say that I'd like some more organic representation that hits a middle ground in more mainstream shows that younger kids and straight ppl watch too.

[@chairmanhiro7401]

@@SPenrose1987 First of all, Jordan Peterson would say that you're a confused boy with no father figure who didn't go to church, so you tried to become your mother or some shit like that. Second of all, that's not what pathologize means, I'm pretty sure you mean psychoanalyze. As for the rest, I can only assume that I'm right, since I took the time to make a few perfectly reasonable observations, explain why you gave me that impression, and then say nothing more than that you "gave me a vibe"....only to have you respond by getting defensive, insulting me for no reason by basically calling me a conservative chud (which I'm obviously not) so you can dismiss anything I say, then stomping off in a passive-aggressive huff while refusing to address ANY of of points I made, even the ones that are just basic facts you got wrong. I said the Big Mouth episode was very telling, but your response tells me even more. Instead of even attempting to consider any of my points or engage in any introspection at all about the arguments you made, you basically just said "nuh uh, you're dumb" and threw a smoke bomb. Yeah, I listened to you talk about a single subject for a solid hour....did you somehow think that I WOULDN'T come to some kind of conclusion about you or why you believe those things? Do you listen to a politician give an hour-long speech about healthcare and then go "well I have no idea what they believe, why they believe it or what kind of person they are". Come on, this is just silly. As far as your actual points go, my observations of you are perfectly fair. You want queer representation, but you don't like it when queer issues are pointed out or addressed in any meaningful way, even when it's done in a very positive, compassionate, well-researched and non-tokeny way, you STILL have a problem with it. The only show you spoke positively of was Steven Universe, which as Vaush himself pointed out, doesn't directly deal with queer issues because it's a kid's show and it's LGBT commentary is done almost entirely through metaphors and allegory. If your point was against overdone, overadvertised, "look at us we're the gay show"-type stuff that lays it on too thick, like She-Ra, that's a totally fair point to make. But you were also against Owl House, Big Mouth, and literally any show that directly admitted "this character is gay/trans/etc", even when done in a very positive and healthy way. The only time you weren't upset at a show was the only one that sidestepped the issue by having a metaphorical excuse to never come out and literally say what it's doing (Pearl isn't LITERALLY a lesbian...she's just an alien rock person that looks and acts exactly like a human woman in love with another human woman....cough cough). As Vaush said, you really sound like you want to have your cake and eat it too... The only conclusion I can come to is that you want representation, but something about direct acknowledgement of queer issues bothers you, regardless of how it's handled, and the best explanation of that is that you watch cartoons for escapism and entertainment (as we all do) but don't like being reminded of real-world serious issues when you're trying to be entertained. That is the only thing I can think of that explains why you want representation but only like it when it exists but is not addressed in any direct manner whatsoever. And frankly, that is just not a realistic standard, nor is it a very helpful one in the current state of our society. "Put a trans character in but just don't talk about it" is an unhealthy mentality to have when it's something that needs to be talked about in order to be understood and normalized. Trying to hold every show to that very specific standard will just doom you to be uncharitably overcritical of 95% of the representation you see, and gives you a real wokescold vibe of nothing ever being "good enough" for you.

[@SPenrose1987]

@@chairmanhiro7401 just going to say I’ve seen this and I refuse to read it because Jesus you spend way too much time arguing in comments sections

[@MrCnovalink]

@@SPenrose1987 i actually found the comment super interesting and a pretty in-depth review of the points you were making in the talk with vaush. It was especially frustrating to listen to you handwave any example given because it wasn't good enough. I could go to the obvious example, owl house, an incredibly popular show (which was cancelled despite being one of the most popular shows because the execs want to generally move away from story based shows as it is harder to artificially extend them and market them) which has both a non-binary character, not specifically addressed, and a now canonical gay couple with the main leads, again the fact that the pairing is a gay one is not addressed and treated with the normalization that you kept referring to.

[@SPenrose1987]

@@MrCnovalink the only gripe I had with owl house is that, like so many other good queer rep based shows: the rep is a barely mentioned, easily missable enby character and a lesbian couple. I think it's just so hard to get a variety, which is after all, what makes queer representation good

[@Junosensei]

The way I see it, writers should just write what they want to represent. Rather than gatekeep which types of queer rep are "good" or "bad", get more real queer people into the writing room and let them write characters from their own lived experiences. It's a bit simplistic, but ultimately, we're not looking for some kind of objective ultimate representation. We just want to be represented honestly with characters that we can relate to and that might help others understand us better. That's usually it. And, like, who's to say there's not a lot of people out there who see themselves in a character who isn't widely seen as "good rep"? Queer characters are only really bad rep when they get to be nothing but the butt of a joke no actual queer person would actually make, or the subject of a misunderstood stereotype. To me, at least.

[@seto749]

But as long as they're writing for primarily straight audiences (example: the same-sexer Christmas movies), we'll never get more than halfway there.

[@megaman02468]

She-Ra came off to me like the creator of the show just wanted it to be that way rather than Netflix trying check off all the boxes at once.

[@storyspren]

I really don't get what this caller's trying to get at with that "shoving queer rep in three shows" point. Does she think having a few hyper queer shows targeted at queer people somehow prevents general-audience shows from having queer characters??

[@SPenrose1987]

I mean that people call that queer representation. My problem is that when you have those shows, you market to a mainly queer audience, which keeps these shows just outside the mainstream, meaning that cishet people AREN'T learning from media about queer experiences

[@storyspren]

@@SPenrose1987 Ok so encourage the makers to market those shows more widely? Recommend those shows to cishet friends?

[@SPenrose1987]

@@storyspren but cishet people ARE marketed these shows and they don’t watch them or understand them

[@MoonatikYT]

the reaction to she-ra from progressive liberals proves that they would be okay with feudalism if all the nobility were cute cartoon lesbians

[@SPenrose1987]

TRUE

[@OccuredJakub12]

Here's an idea: have a flashback of a character's backstory or a photo of them when they were younger, but they're presenting a different gender. Same general look, so you can still see it's the same character, just watch out not to guide the audience into thinking it's a brother or a sister. Would this be good?

[@calumbyrne5926]

Kids could get confused or just straight up miss it You would have to make it explicitly obvious that it’s the same character

[@ladyarrogance]

they are talking about children's animation, and she complains, that the "good looking lesbian couples" pander the audience. audience of children? i don't think that attractive women are aimed for them, in the sense she's implying. also, in cases like she-ra and legend of korra, the main female characters recieved lots of dissing for their "not girly enough" -looks (spop more than lok)... and i don't think that any of gems from su are stereotypically "good looking", with their really diverse body types and personal features (like pearl's nose

[@TheLithp]

Guess I might as well throw my 2 cents in here. I think I overall agreed more with Vaush, I don't think she made her point well, but part of that is because Vaush really had a tendency to interrupt her. When she started explaining something, Vaush would interject with a question, then she would say "well, that's only part of what I was saying." Sometimes it pays to be patient to get the full picture, my man. Now, I don't want to say it's all on Vaush. Like I said, I agree with him more. Her standard really seems impossible to please. Like it has to be really understated, but not something you can easily miss, something that's not tokenism, but also not trying to fit in a bunch of representative characters, & I can't imagine how exhausting it must be to consume media like this just based on how it felt listening to it. I also wonder if they aren't failing to account for how close they are to these communities. I, for one, had no idea ahead of time that either She-Ra or Owl House were going to try to be "gay shows." Vaush said it was extremely obvious based on marketing, & his big example was rainbows & unicorns with She-Ra, but that's the entire aesthetic of girl's marketing in the era She-Ra originally came from. All this to say, I think those shows are using much more mainstream tropes than they seem to think.

[@MrCnovalink]

The issue is that she had a lot of trouble explaining what it was she wanted, and a lot of the questions vaush was asking were for clarification to what she was looking for out of lgbtq themes in animation.

[@vriskaserket1120]

Saw this debate live. This is somehow not the least interesting debate of the night btw.

[@M3G4FR34K]

True. I mean I do wanna take in good faith that maybe her brain was fried from sleep deprivation because it was 2 am in her time but I also feel like she hasn't thought her positions fully through or perhaps wasn't fully ready to have her positions moved...? There was definitely good potential in this convo.

[@D4n1t0o]

@@M3G4FR34K I felt like she was making good points tbh, just Vaush didn't really get it as an 'Honourary Queer Person' as he put it.

[@UberNoodle]

It's funny going back and watching the original Japanese anime versions of the cartoons I used to watch back in the 80s and discovering how many queer, gay, non-binary and even trans characterisation that was removed in the English versions. It wasn't a huge amount, but it was significant enough. And sure, the representation was a product of its time (esp. Japan at that time), e.g. being trans or non binary was sometimes a trope for the more extravagant villains. But there were also positive side and hero characters as well.

[@takke9830]

Gotta say as a huge fan of both Steven Universe and She-Ra I can confirm that the representation while not terrible is still pretty basic and safe. Like, most of the media prioritizes WLW and usually only really feature maybe 1 bi or gay male character if at all. Trans people getting any of the focus is even more rare and almost nonexistent imo. Like, even with Double trouble, I do like them a lot as an enby, but they also feel like they were written as a shapeshifting lizard first, and as a nonbinary character later because it fit best. I mean, with so little representation it really falls into stereotypes as well because we barely have any characters to present us. Like, all gems in steven universe thouch genderless, are being written as she/her‘s. And so there‘s a huge pool of representation there regarding characters and relationships. But if you wanna pick your favorite gay male character or trans character, you‘ll either be limited to 1 supporting character, or basically a background character you see in one episode. It‘s just so bare bones and when most queer tv in the cartoon sphere can be written off as lesbian tv it certainly isn‘t doing it‘s job well of being more inclusive. But on the other hand I also get that the networks may be a problem. Steven universe had such a rushed ending cause after forcing a wedding episode between 2 gems aka 2 aliens who both were adressed as she/her (not even human characters) because the network was against it, they cancelled the show and left the crew with 6 more episode slots to end their story. When gay ppl can‘t even show things like their weddings on tv because of fear from the studios of upsetting aweful people, how far have we really gotten? How far is being able to finally see the horizon of the queer movement move into the mainstream when not even any relevant deeply opressed group is being elevated, but instead it‘s only the safest of the group to be shown and even they don‘t even get their own love stories told because some hateful loser wouldn‘t like it and their opinions are apparently the most important. It‘s just so frustrating. All this advertizing and self praise left and right, every company flying a pride flag each pride month to virtue signal basic bland bs. But when it comes to actual rights and actual creative freedom like the str8‘s get, suddenly all of them are silently packing that pride away and pretend they aren‘t part of it at all. It‘s so frustrating. It‘s like a massive shit show. Nothing really gets done. But everyone treats it like there‘s massive gold unearthed everywhere. We get a drip from the faucet every 2 or 3 months maybe. And most of it is focusing just on lgb, but apparently it‘s so much. No it‘s not. We should ask for so much more. And the fact that we tolerate treatment like that rebecca sugar got for wanting something as innocent as a gay wedding, while mainstream media glorifies pedo shit all the time with no issue, is just not it. I mean hell, we all got mad at her blaming her for the show‘s ending being bad. But nobody was looking at the networks, or podcasts. Not even interviews. No. Because apparently, we‘re so used to propaganda from those who hate us and only mildly tolerate us, that we didn‘t think twice about if it was the network pulling out after a queer kiss and wedding, or if it was the creator just having a brain fart. We can‘t keep being fine with the bare minimum. And as a group that has been harmed so much and shoved so harshly into the shadows by opressive hateful idiots, we cartainly shouldn‘t be fine with the bare minimum. That should be the start of it. Not the finish line.

[@carlcarlington7317]

People talk about not over doing it in kids shows when it comes to lgbt rep, how you shouldn’t have to state it or explain it out right and I’m reminded of a meme from a bit ago and we’re going deep so try to follow me here. You remember did the science kid? The 3D animated pbs kids show? How a few years ago everyone online was shitting on it for being “cringe?” I do hospice care for adults with severe physical and mental disabilities one of the houses I worked at only had bare bone basic cable so I’d have it on pbs kids a lot since it was literally the most entertaining thing for the clients to watch. Once I got past my knee jerk cringe response to the shows including Sid the science kid I realized 2 things. One: odd squad, word girl, hero elementary and wild Kratz are all underrated bangers I would’ve fucking loved those shows as a kid around the intended age range. 2: That even the shows that didn’t really enjoy were actually really educational. Like looking back I remember watching shows like blues clues bear in the big blue house and the backyardagains that explicitly advertised themselves as “educational” and realized they never taught me anything, that they’re almost maliciously designed to seem educational to a parent paying half attention while having no actual educational value discovery kid was better about this but even that doesn’t compare to pbs kids if we’re talking pure educational value. Sid the science kid seems really cringie to adults but if you where’s kid in the intended age range watching this show you’d actually be learning things like how friction works and stuff. What I’m coming around to is maybe if our intentions are to educate young people to be more accepting of others (and potentially themselves) we should kinda accept the cringe. That’s to say the goal in the case of childrens content should always be to educate first no matter how lame that may actually be to adults.

[@simonjaz1279]

I would be inclined to disagree ONLY because of 2 reasons. 1. I watched all of those shows as a kid and remember next to nothing about them except the theme songs. 2. The SMARTEST people I know grew up watching SpongeBob and THAT show melted brain cells.

[@Arian-11]

WE NEED MORE MLM(MEN LOVING MEN) REPRESENTATION

[@Spectra651]

"So, you want a realistic, down-to-earth show... that's completely off-the-wall and swarming with magic robots?" That's basically what this entire conversation felt like.

[@josephinehendricks]

bro you just described evangelion

[@BringerOfBloood]

Would be quite interesting to put queer characters as lead characters for kinda Scott Pilgrim style shows, where you have the juxtaposition between every day life (where you can show the every day struggles and queer issues) and fantastic JoJo style fights. Then the queer stuff is both very much in the center and an aside.

[@SPenrose1987]

Based idea!

[@aagh8714]

WALLAAAAAAAAACE

[@D4n1t0o]

I feel like what she's looking for is what was done in Sense8, a trans character where it was just a reality that was apparent and treated as entirely normal. Also, I feel like Vaush is wrong in saying that a character being revealed as trans needs a narrative or an arc. That's exactly what it doesn't need. Mentioning you happen to like falafel doesn't need an arc, it's just a normal thing that might come up in conversation, because idk, let's say someone suggested eating falafel tonight - You know? I really feel like I get where Alexandria is coming from here and she's making a lot of sense. Anyone know her Twitter handle? Would like to hear more of her thoughts.

[@TheSquareOnes]

Exactly, I think they both made some good points here but he seemed to keep getting caught up on "how to explain" that has a transition has taken place. Isn't the entire point to achieve passing? Why bring it up at all if it's never relevant (which it generally only ever is when dealing with the kind of bigotry that probably wouldn't come up in plots in these kinds of shows)? It's also worth pointing out that in the case of children their parents should be at least somewhat involved in their media exposure anyway, obviously it's unrealistic to expect them to be there every single second but the explanation aspects for more complex topics like gender identity can always just be outsourced to those parents. If the kid picks up on what is happening and has questions that's probably who they're going to ask anyway, it's fine to expect parents to still be responsible for some amount of parenting here.

[@TheArtistKnownAsNooblet]

I don't think vaush was saying it needs an arc. I'm pretty sure he was saying that transes are hard to introduce organically without making a whole deal out of it. Like It's pretty easy to introduce gay people because there are lots of actions you can take to show that you are gay but there aren't really many actions you can take to show you are trans other than just like saying it.

[@D4n1t0o]

@@TheArtistKnownAsNooblet I would respectfully disagree. There are many aspects of a trans person's day to day life which are unique to them, including how they have to negotiate relationships, the prospect of having children, the law, medicines, sexual intercourse, sometimes wigs or doctor's appointments. Not to mention the social aspects, stigma, the way people talk to you, treat you, view you, etc. All aspects of a thoroughly unique experience, none of which should define a person of course, but as simple indicators, manners of showing not telling? Sure and they can be incidental to the main story being told, just shown as minor aspects of a life focused on something greater and more significant than just their identity.

[@Idarak1]

Sense8 isn't a cartoon though and is therefore unwatchable to the online left

[@houseofcrazyman865]

this entire debate was just the "MORE CHEESE" "LESS MACARONI" scene from Courage the Cowardly Dog.

[@horrorterrorharvey]

i feel like you could hit a balance by having a character who is casually but unambiguously revealed to be trans, and perhaps have them go through some kind of arc/plot which is about super trans emotional struggles without it being explicitly about transness, eg have a trans woman come out and maybe have her have an arc about feeling pressure from not being able to live out the expectations her family put on her, explicitly careerwise (say they wanted her to be a doctor) but also implicitly, possibly without stating it about their expectations for a son which she will not fulfill. that way its a somewhat meaningful representation of a trans struggle, without making her whole character about being trans, but also without having her transness be up in the air and unnoticed by the majority cis audience

[@frankwest5388]

This might just be me missing a lot of never shows but I have observed something weird in a lot of shows with LGBT+ representation. The amount of primary characters that are lesbian (or at least lesbian coded in case of alien rocks) is massively higher, than gay men. Like I said, maybe I am just missing a lot of newer shows and characters, so this could be just me. But it's weird that I notice it at all.

[@aagh8714]

yeah i can barely think of any gay dudes (unless they're super super super in the background) but i can list off like 10 main character lesbian couples lol

[@frankwest5388]

@@aagh8714 my working theory is that lesbians are, for some reason, either more marketable, safer with executives or just more socially accepted. Like a guy being "gay" still gets stigmatized and seen as feminine, in a bad way, by default. While female characters that breach gender norms are more accepted in the wider cultural background. Example. How many female leads in cartoons, wish to go on adventures, fight, marry a commoner or not be seen as "just the princess" despite their parents wishes? Quite a few, I myself could list like 5 from the top of my head. It's at times almost expected. Now try the same with guys? Usually the most that they get is a secret hobby like cooking. And even those characters are more rare. Another reason I can think of, is target demographic. Let's face it, the majority, or at least the stereotype, of people actively campaigning for either LGBQT+ or other minority representation, are young women that are terminally online. So, it might make sense from a business perspective to allow more lesbians, since it makes the target audience happy, while not risking as much, as a gay guy would be. Take all I say with a grain of salt. These are just wild speculations from a straight cis guy from the other side of the world. So, what do I know.

[@phirah79]

Okay, so this person finds overt shows of emotion cringy but I, as an American, find the stereotypical British thing of not being able to show emotions to be cringy. So it turns out that's just their personal preference and not some huge flaw in the media they are critiquing.

[@totan3992]

There needs to be more gay representation I feel like lesbian couples are used more often due to it being more socially accepted

[@renardleblanc5030]

The problem with representation, for any demographic, is making it seem organic. Say you have a trans character. They had experiences *related* to their transition, and you gotta ask how those experiences effect their behaviour and competence. In kids media, I think you'd have to examine what experiences a trans-kid has. It's not all "gay coded stuff," maybe they knew at age 6 they'd rather play with toy pickup trucks and baseball bats, rather than barbies and easy-bake ovens. I don't think you could really "get away" with depicting proper trans experiences (to a broader, non-lgbt, audience) until you hit the 12 - 14 demographic anyway. It just wouldn't "land." By that age, though, I'm pretty sure you could start working in the full experience. If a characters *only* defining trait is: "I am trans person, who is trans, and I go trans everywhere," they *obviously* come across as a token.

[@TheCountOfMommysCrisco]

I really appreciate Alex's position here, but I hope she practices her public speaking if she intends to get into any more conversations like this. It's legitimately stressful trying to follow her point through the constant um's and 'you knows' and reiterations of things she's already saying. Just take a moment, gather your words, and say them.

[@D4n1t0o]

I feel like I got what she meant just fine. Also, keep in mind Vaush is a strong character, even at his most gentle as seen here and that can be intimidating for anyone.

[@zeltron5168]

Chill. Some people find it hard to gather their thoughts cause there's a lot of things they wanna convey and it's hard to compartmentalize those thoughts and present it in a condensed way. If you truly care about the topic, you wouldn't mind sitting through a conversation that's seemingly all over the place in order to learn something interesting.

[@wacksonjittemore4013]

That's most people who debate Vaush. It's annoying that people ask to come on to speak, then sound like they don't know what they want to say. Like prepare a little notecard or something.

[@D4n1t0o]

@@wacksonjittemore4013 Would we even call that a debate? Seemed more like an amicable discussion.

[@wacksonjittemore4013]

@@D4n1t0o The title says debate.

[@MalachioftheForest]

I feel like this is one of those "you can't make everyone happy" kind of things. If you make a show for the LGBT by LGBT then its pandering, but if you don't have enough LGBT characters it's exclusive or they're depicted as a trope.

[@MalachioftheForest]

If were talking strictly kids animation, i think the easiest way to directly portray it and not have it be the focus of their character is to do what Big Mouth did and have a character that hasn't been seen in a long time come back presenting differently. It can be brought up, explained, and then not be a thing anymore. Do it episode one with one of the main characters so then it's not a one off inclusion.

[@sethdrake7551]

2:55 "all non binary people want to be shapeshifters IRL" i cannot argue with this one

[@notthis9586]

I dabble at creative writing in the fantasy genre, and I can never figure out how to, or even if I should, include trans characters. In fantasy characters can just be what they want to be since it's fiction. So besides ham-fistedly (if I wrote it as a cis person) having an arc about dysphoria I can't think of why I wouldn't just write my girl characters as female, boy characters as male, and non-gender conformists characters as whatever. Like there can be trans centered stories about the struggles that come from it for sure, but it's not something I persoanlly can tackle, and having it as tokenism, or as a minor background element in a story not targeted at trans people seems pointless or, if mishandled, othering. Not sure if that ramble meant anything, might be a bad take, happy new year!

[@TheSquareOnes]

I think it would depending heavily on the setting and the types of stories you're trying to tell, but there are definitely interesting ways to fit them in. As an example, let's say transmutation makes perfect and permanent transitioning available but that doesn't mean everyone automatically has access to that magic. It might require paying a hefty fee to a powerful enough spellcaster, thus justifying why a trans person might want to take up a life of adventure and find the necessary wealth. The authorities might want to keep that kind of magic heavily restricted since giving people the ability to completely change their appearance would make catching criminals difficult, so you could explore that for a more heavy-handed trans rights narrative. Obviously it can also be easy to fuck up though so if you're not comfortable doing it or don't think you'll do it justice then it's also fine to just not even try. It's tricky since I'd imagine a lot of the lack of representation in media does actually come down to "the writer didn't feel like they knew how to write the experiences of other demographics" but being another neutral work that doesn't progress the situation is probably still better than doing a really horrible job and moving things backwards.

[@thevoid3010]

One fun thing is having the NB shapeshifter With magic systems that can change appearance and the body, many trans people and NBs specifically I could imagine playing with that a lot And depending on the world maybe it could have a class element too, where the more rich can afford the magic to get to be able to play with it in that way while many poor would have to struggle to be able to get it, or learn it Maybe there are no visible high class binary trans people because of that. And a side plot about a party member hoping to find that while on the quest could be an interesting way to put it in (A bit wordy I know but the ideas kept going as I typed)

[@harperna3938]

i mean, it's fantasy. you can do whatever you want. i'm enby, and i have an elaborate fantasy conworld where all humans in the setting are shapeshifting true hermaphrodites that can adopt animalian characteristics (think fins, gills, feathers, scales, etc). it is, in many ways, an exploration of a post-gender society where people's physical forms are so fluid as to defy categorization beyond their essential humanity. if you want to grapple with gender in your fantasy setting, attempting a relatively "faithful" reflection of gender dynamics as it exists in our reality is kind of a waste.

[@emylily8266]

there doesnt have to a reason for a character to be trans the same way there doesn't have to be a reason for a character to be gay or for them to be x ethnicity. It's just what they are, theres no need for an entire arc about it if it's not what the story is specifically about. This is the heteronormativity deep within all of us asking for us to justify these things.

[@tannerlowe6082]

She seems well educated on what she is talking about, but it also seems like she’s constantly dancing around what she wants to say.

[@bulletsandbracelets4140]

I really wish that people could ask for the things they want without pushing the idea that the stuff we have is terrible. It's a really important point that we don't mind stereotypes in non-minority content - if every single instance of minority media is torn apart, people are going to hesitate to create it. The more we get, the less this will be a problem. I know it's a vocal minority but I still wish they'd be a little more forgiving. Saying "this could be better" or "I don't like this" shouldn't always be the same thing as "this shouldn't exist" or "this is an objectively terrible show".

[@jasonco2]

For a show that avoids almost all these issues and does representation right, see: Arcane. Also, everyone should just see Arcane. It’s just a damn good show, period.

[@francisxavier8374]

i think alexabndra(i think that was the name)'s gripe was more with the lack of good trans representation which i dont think was there in arcane but, yeah, piltover's finest > *

[@jasonco2]

@@francisxavier8374 A fair point! Although, given how Arcane tends to handle queer representation, if they did include one they likely wouldn't/didn't draw attention to it overtly.

[@lonniegabbie]

Raine Whispers was nonbinary rep done really well, yall arent giving them enough credit. Also Luz is Dominican vaush lol

[@SPenrose1987]

Raine gets called they like, twice in the whole show and although I can spot an enby from miles off it's barely noticeable to any cishet people I know who watched it

[@lamb6549]

You shouldn't be required to explain trans people, gay people, ecc... But there's a difference between how things should be and how to reach that point.

[@stoneman472]

Unironically, One Piece does LGBTW representation very well. Ivankov, Bon Clay, Yamato, Kikunojo, Inazuma etc. The LGBTQ aspect of the characters is touched upon and then just excepted. For example when Yamato identified as a man, Luffy didn't even slightly question it and went right back to trying to knock Kaido's teeth out.

[@avatarwan5824]

Sanji in Kamabakka was not as good tho, ngl.

[@stoneman472]

@@avatarwan5824 nah I will admit that that one could have been handled way better. Which is strange when you compare it to how the Newkama pirates in Impel Down where portrayed. Very Rocky Horror Picture Show.

[@avatarwan5824]

@@stoneman472 Impel Down's Paradise was amazing, but Kamabakka is horrible, imo.

[@stoneman472]

@@avatarwan5824 that's the thing. I think he only did what he did on Kamebakka is because Sanji is his favorite punching bag for jokes seeing as Sanji is a horndog. Doesn't excuse it, but that's why I think that there wasn't any malice behind it.

[@stoneman472]

@@avatarwan5824 oh dude you're still at the beginning of Dressrosa? Prepare yourself, that Arch gets giga heavy. IT'S SO DAMN GOOD THOUGH!

[@drksideofthewal]

I guess one way to show a trans character in a kids show, while they’re a teen, would be to show them as an “effeminate boy” in the first season, and they gradually look more female overtime? And then, don’t even mention it. Just portray it as another way of “growing up.”

[@drksideofthewal]

@@Ass_of_Amalek Yeah, that’s true. That could be done naturally as well, you don’t need a whole episode about it.

[@Chazreal]

As a cis male, and artist, I've often wondered if cartoon depictions of LGBTQ characters for children are too outlandishly depicted and possibly a detriment to collective understanding of that culture.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

I remember Adventure Time having a good depiction of lesbians. That show is the bomb. Cant think of any other.

[@notthis9586]

@@DieNibelungenliad I remember it getting flack alongside Legend of Korra for only having explicitly gay representation right at the end... huge fan of adventure time, just sharing what I saw at the time.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

@@notthis9586 Legend of Korra was really guilty of that

[@SPenrose1987]

Thank you for actually listening to what I was saying rather than just trying to demonise me like most of the chat/comments

[@Chazreal]

@@SPenrose1987 Thank *you* for having such a classic Anime heroine as your KZbin Avatar, Loved Nausicaa!!!

[@erisofterra8986]

I still honestly believe that Brooklyn 99 has some of the best LGBT representation in any media. Between Holt and Kevin It shows characters whose sexuality doesn't matter because it is an integral part of their behavior, but rather because they face realistic biases and maneuver around them as a team. Their relationship, when it is on screen, isn't a "gay" relationship, its just a relationship between two loving people. Shit hits different. Oh also bi-racial.

[@andrewgrime8389]

Representation in media is such a weird topic. What do people want? Characters who are gay and that's their personality? It seems like the LGBT community finds it extremely cringe. Do people want to have LGBT representation in media, because it helps to normalize the community irl? If that was the case, it'd just feel like mindless propaganda. Do people just talk about representation to combat anti-SJW Conservative "forced diversity" argument? Maybe a couple of years ago, but now everyone seems to agree that "forced diversity" is a thing with existence of shows like, "Q-Force" for example. For me this whole thing is overblown. We have a show like, "Breaking Bad" which is UNIVERSALLY praised and often called "the best TV show ever", but do people criticize the show for its lack of representation? Walter White is a white cis stright man married to a white cis straight woman with whom he has two children and the family is living the suburban life. I wouldn't call the show "diverse". Leftists maybe give a show like BB a slack, because it touches on class and economic issues which LARPers like to soyclap over. I don't know, just enjoy things you enjoy and don't overthink every single thing in life. You're not as important as you think you are. Have a nice day and Happy New Year!

[@PlatinumAltaria]

No one is asking for literally every random show to insert a gay character. They're saying that Walter White could very easily have been a gay man and nothing would fundamentally change about the story, and they're asking why that show never gets made. Being white, straight and cis is the default for most characters: that's bad.

[@verager2493]

Good convo, I think a core issue is that there are multiple types of representation, and multiple goals, so most types aren't going to tick every box. A show to help people understand things is less likely to appeal to the people who already understand it, but the straight audience might legitimately need it spelled out, and benefit from that. Hell, people who don't understand themselves might benefit from that. Whereas shows that go more into less explicit depictions are a good way to make the group itself feel included. The key is asking "what is this for? What am I doing with this?" And executing on that principle. Diverse portrayals help more than trying for a single perfect ideal

[@oldmanvox3897]

THE TRUTH: Shows with Gay characters are bad because Bottoms write the characters.

[@HeloisGevit]

Granted it's not quite a kid's cartoon but Arcane has a great example of LGBTQ representation in Caitlyn and VI's relationship. When's Voosh gonna stop being contrarian and watch it already?

[@AndaraBledin]

The thing she's not getting is that there's a lot of straight/cis people who watch Shera and Owl House and Stephen Universe. The TV show is Loki, and the character is never trans or bi in story - he is always male, and his love interest is only a female. There are dozens' of gay/bi/trans creators on KZbin who are distinctly unhappy with Loki, marking it as being only one slight step up from queerbaiting. And, oh, man... if you think the modern She-ra was over the top, have you ever *seen* the 80's version of Swift Wind?!? The new show toned his model down quite a bit. Old She-ra was from the era of Lisa Frank, which back then was just bright and colorful, but if the line was introduced today, too many people would accuse the artist of pandering to gay culture. >_> Sometimes a rainbow is just a rainbow, and sometimes it's representation.

[@StuartAtkinson4467]

Also Vaush's ability to talk while playing a fps based game?!? God tier multitasking. I enjoy Destiny's less "debate and somehow squeeze in disavowment of the left" style streams but the amount of running in circles in Minecraft or scrolling through inventory consequences. I often wonder if I could game and talk about stuff.

[@shao-ningwu9209]

One of the best I have seen is Uri on Ice, the relationship doesn't feel forced or unnatural, it just happens, and the show isn't mainly about relationship anyway. Personally I am aro/ace and all the shows seem to have to have romance so welp...

[@worldpeace1386]

bojack horseman did a pretty good job with queer representation imo. at least by the later seasons.

[@EmpireGamingWynter]

I think this all depends on the age of the kids Younger kids need to be walked through concepts like friendship and sharing so they will need to be walked through the concept of queer people For older kids, closer to teenagers you can include these characters without making a big deal about it

[@dipsheets]

Owl house got cancelled and steven universe had to end early because of the kiss between sapphire and ruby. There are EXTREMELY strick guidelines for gay media in childrens cartoons, things you can get away with for a cishet couple but not easily for lgbt couple

[@BornOnThursday]

I was trying to think of concepts, but many shows, for example, don't age characters, so even having someone suddenly begin changing their appearance, and they have emotional rises and falls, and their appearance continues to change, and maybe they appear uncomfortable, but it's not out right stated, still means, at some point they either reach a place they are happy, or time passes to maybe another appearance, and they are older.

[@hobosorcerer]

So are we not going to bring up Orochimaru as the perfect NB representation? No? Alright then.

[@dancedagondance861]

The only problem is that Orochimaru is always referred to as a man, even when literally taking a female form. Anime and manga run into that problem a lot. There's a character in the Jujutsu Kaisen manga whose AGAB and gender identity are both basically indecipherable, even though I don't think they're meant to be.

[@ClarkNewman608]

@@dancedagondance861 Can't really remember how it went in shippuden, but I do know that in boruto, orochimaru's kid always refers to them as his "parent" and there was even a scene where he asks if orochimaru is his mother or father. Orochimaru responds saying "I have been a man at times, and a woman at times, as well as something not of this world" so yeah, NB icon

[@isaac_marcus]

If I were to criticize what the caller said it sounds like she really liked Steven Universe and holds it on a pedestal and then compares it to that

[@Salvanas42]

There are valid criticisms one can levy at She-Ra regarding rep but I don't think a single one was brought up in this entire exchange. The idea that this show that managed a full run and ended multiple years ago had rep at all was amazing, that it got to the level it did was beyond anything I could have expected.

[@chrispysaid]

Alex really is just "Represent people that are like me but only do it explicitly and specifically _this way_ or else I don't like it." That's just...brainwashed pandering. "Do this thing exactly the way I like it." "Okay. _shuffle shuffle_ " "I liked that." You know?

[@deviousdoggo5534]

Steven universe wasn't explicitly gay, the gems were genderless but really only the main gems used pronouns. But they still remained genderless.

[@GhERM2SOIED72]

0:00:29 I'm already cracking up!! Like, the drama of being on stream and IMMEDIATELY getting hit with a super serious "I'm the rootinest and tootinest, so don't you even dare" and she's not sure whether to take it seriously! Golden moment!

[@davidbodor1762]

25:50 - Did we watch the same show? Owl house doesn't really have any friendship is magic stuff, that's more She-ra. Owl House is more found family and weirdo's stick together and outcasts being who they are stuff. I don't remember any episode where friendship was really the focus other than maybe the Library episode where Luz wants reads a book with an Enemies to Friends trope and wonders if maybe she can befriend Amity, but that's it. One out of 29 episodes.

[@TheThisIsMe2010]

Her points may have been kind of circular and at worst contradictory, but I'm just relieved that Alexandra seemed relatively good-faith; I was expecting a lily orchard-esque meltdown about how She-Ra is secretly some kind of anti-queer psyop