Is Calling Republicans EVIL Bad For The Left? Debating a Socdem Viewer

[@rudeboyjohn3483]

Guy even said that "Republicans wouldn't do that because the public wouldn't agree with it." ...Has....has he learned about the Supreme Court and Abortion yet?

[@jakobc.2558]

He has, the stream was yesterday. I watched it live. I am suprised vaush didnt bring that up as an argument.

[@yeetusonix9795]

The Surpreme court is not governed by popular opinion ..... they arent voted in.

[@AB-zl4nh]

Who are winning over by calling the Republican Party evil? The Left barely vote and many on the Right will never vote for Dems. It doesn't achieve anything useful in terms of winning elections and enacting real change.

[@orangenostril]

Has he learned about any GOP position on anything??

[@submersedsword4949]

This sure is a young one, unfortunately I'm not sure if he has the time to learn and grow before it is too late.

[@hollywoo1054]

Matt Gaetz literally looks like the stereotypical evil politician that you'd see in an action movie.

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

Lazy Town extra loookin ahhh

[@ismth]

@@TwoForFlinchin1 💀

[@parrot998]

@@TwoForFlinchin1 Nooo! I don't wanna connect him to Robbie Rotten in my brain!

[@roberteriksen6434]

Stereotypical evil for me has always been Kenneth Copeland. I would call his face and mannerisms bad fiction and too on the nose if i read it in a book. He sets a bad precedent for lazy fiction writing, cause anyone can just point to him and say its realistic, and I wouldn't even know how to respond to that. Edit for the unitiated or unfamiliar: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b33Xd2ZqgtemnKs - Kenneth explains that he can't fly commercially cause those planes are filled with demons. And Jon 'A hungry dog is an obedient dog' Taffer is also up there. Literally bad fiction writing, but its just real instead.

[@jpkuremi]

Right? Like he looks like he’d be a character in The Boys or something.

[@LJStability]

It's funny for me because before COVID I probably would've described myself as a centrist. But after everything that happened over two years, it became more and more apparent that there isn't a "balanced" perspective on these issues. Fundamentally, many people want the US to follow a version of Christian autocracy or religious fundamentalism. It's one of the reasons why I stopped going to many churches because their political and religious messages were almost indiscernible from republican talking points. It was a lesson for me that being a moderate can make you into the biggest coward. I can understand wanting to appear the "reasonable" person in a conflict. It comes from a deep desire to avoid conflict. But by appeasing those who fundamentally don't see certain people as human, you lose everything. It's uncomfortable having to realize and accept that you have to engage and fight to protect those you care about from people you may know personally who hold really bad political views. But if it's a choice between standing by and letting these same people hurt those I care about, you have to take a stand.

[@SylvanasWindrunnerResurrected]

maybe the true centrist position is to go left?

[@rogersmith996]

You just perfectly explained the reason why people (rightfully so) make fun of the 'enlightened centrist' types.

[@rudeboyjohn3483]

Yep. I can't stand a centrist. Becuase they never avoid the simple fact that the center point between Liberty and Genocide is just slavery and oppresion. "Oh, they wanted to kill all the minorities, but instead, I convinced them to just enslave them. We all have to make sacrifices!" Fuuuuuuuuck that noise

[@korganrocks3995]

@@SylvanasWindrunnerResurrected When one party is far-right and the other is center-right, I believe you are correct.

[@skeletorpfunk6342]

perfectly to the point and well articulated, someone pinch me I don’t believe I’m in a comment section

[@ASolidSnack]

"Civility" has just made people apathetic so I really don't care if anyone thinks it sounds hyperbolic. If you have to call them 'grotesque mockeries of nature wearing suits made of human skin' to get people to pay attention, so be it.

[@XIII_Vanitas]

The problem is that using "charged" language will only result in you preaching to the choir, since the people you actually need to convince won't be willing to listen if you insult them. Beau of the Fifth Column is a great example of someone who's able to meet people at their level and then convince them to move over by pushing their buttons.

[@ricardobarahona3939]

@Vanitas Beau’s great but he’s not running for office. People who run win by using strong language (whether right or wrong) and getting attention. Remember that millions of Trump supporters used to support Obama and were not concrete with their beliefs but fell for demagoguery. We have to fight harder than the far right and must use strong language since it’s is appropriate to all the bad things occurring.

[@XIII_Vanitas]

@Oswald Cobblepot Are you one of those lefties who larp as revolutionaries without knowing the first thing about how revolutions go down? "That crap" is called successful political advocacy. It's literally the main point of channels like this one and it's the only thing that can alter the course the USA are currently set in.

[@XIII_Vanitas]

@@ricardobarahona3939 One thing is to use strong language, another is to demonize your potential voters, which is the best way to lose an election if you can't count on gerrymandering, voter suppression, and copious amount of campaign funds and political ads from super pacs.

[@TheExterminatorGuy]

@@XIII_Vanitas different rhetoric in different places. Beau’s got an awesome thing going; but it’s damn near unique to his specific situation and skill set. Not everyone can, or should, follow in his steps. I think “charged” language like that can be helpful in other circles. Places that are very edgy, politically engaged, younger, and so on. There’s lots of examples of “charged” language being extremely effective at pulling folks over, it just works better in certain crowds. I think the online political space, specifically in right leaning circles, is a good target for that rhetoric

[@Insomiotic]

Like an extension of capitalist realism, Luke cannot even imagine a scenario where you would need to act outside of traditional legislative politics, and fails to understand just how much blood was spilled in the streets for the rights we precariously hold today.

[@henriquesoares7893]

I actually laughed out loud when he said the laws passed by Republicans "would be unconstitutional" as an answer It's like that club penguim print "What do you mean someone is trying to kill you? That's against the law, people can't do that"

[@jerryjohnson4008]

Didn't we just...have a law repelled for being UNCONSTITUTIONAL 😆🤣 geniuses. What you don't realize...is you were making Illegal laws...and now think you need to die to uphold your values...of illegal and thus immoral acts 🤣

[@stevonwhite8933]

He’s a young white male w/no perspective or reason to care about any of those things. Sexuality being easily coverable as long as you aren’t Trans. That’s why progressivism is great. It brings people from different cultures, races, and backgrounds to combat racism, classism, and sexism, for the greater good of society💯

[@jerryjohnson4008]

@@stevonwhite8933 you mean....It makes enemies with moral claims upon groups without the sight of God, the knowledge of the heart, or forgiveness of the Divine....Verily I tell you the truth, Satan, is the accuser of his brothern..." 💀

[@stevonwhite8933]

@@jerryjohnson4008 you think the Nazis were socialist. You aren’t worth even acknowledging…

[@Gingersnaps_the_pumpkin_kitty]

This is low-key "calling someone a racist is using a slur" energy mixed with "I don't like conflict so stop fighting your with abuser so loudly".

[@wynoglia]

Succinctly put. Exactly.

[@dr17719]

Yes. This is why people who are more interested in being good than fighting evil become dupes, then act “concerned” as genocides roll out while writing mediocre letters expressing their criticisms, and then end up dead or shut out of power.

[@gskills55]

This comment literally equates an individual case of abuse to armed national conflict. Trying to silence a victim of abuse because you are uncomfortable with abuse is horrible, and not at all the same thing as saying you are uncomfortable with armed national conflict, so please stop fighting so loudly.

[@AB-zl4nh]

Please tell me what mainstream Civil Rights Movement leadership called voters evil?

[@pako5586]

@@gskills55 we're not fighting. We need to get ready. The abuser is in the house and he has a gun. Meanwhile you're over here saying we can talk him down, giving us shit for grabbing the knife. YOU CAN NOT REASON WITH A TIGER. WHEN YOUR HEAD IS IN HIS MOUTH

[@mikebiggums1921]

One thing I've learned from these two recent debates is that nobody seems to understand how hindsight can change your perception of something. The civil rights movement was good because it was successful but if you were in the middle of it and didn't have the knowledge that it would be successful in the future, would you be saying MLK had bad optics every time a propaganda piece was written about him causing riots? The Holocaust was bad because Nazis put people in concentration camps but if you were alive at that time and the camps hadn't been built yet, would you be making arguments that the broader public was being too hard on the Nazis? Before you make a political argument you should always question whether you'd be on the right side of history, and sometimes making a pacifist argument can put you on the wrong side of history.

[@artisticcannibalism1350]

people need to remember that MLK didn't actually succeed in getting the Civil Rights Act passed. What got the Civil Rights Act passed were the mass riots that that were born from the outrage over the fact that he had been assassinated. The ugly truth that leftists need to realize is but sometimes self-defensive violence is only the thing that will improve the country.

[@natespringer9934]

What an extremely well written response!

[@zotaninoron3548]

The problem with your last statement is that people are fucking terrible at actually identifying their own motivations. Nobody is going to say, "Yeah, I'll electrocute someone to death for answering a test question wrong." But Milgram demonstrated most of us lie to ourselves about the evils we're willing to enable or excuse, if not outright commit.

[@bibsp3556]

Never stop fighting for what's good. Thats the only way. The world relies on people that fight for what is right, because so many will just go with the flow.

[@fen4613]

Really well put, I should probably apply this more to myself aswell

[@racebase9146]

The problem with conversations like these is that it’s really easy to fall into this cycle: “yeah it would totally be okay for Jews to take up arms against the Nazis” “okay, at what point would that be okay?” “Around when the Nazis started doing X to Jews” “conservatives are currently doing X to trans people.” “Yeah but that’s different” “Why?” “Because while conservatives and Nazis do X, the Nazis were also doing Y” “Conservatives are also doing Y to trans people” “yeah but that’s different” and it continues forever. And the REAL problem with this loop is that it’s actually really difficult for the liberal to realize they’re committing this goalpost shifting fallacy because they’re too afraid to actually set down the goal posts at “X” or “Y” specifically because they already recognize that Conservatives do those things so they just stay to talking about generalities. In conclusion, the Alabama forced de-transition law is about as explicit and active as a genocide can be before people start dying. You can’t draw a firm line between conservatives and the Nazis unless you’re willing to let them kill a few hundred trans people before you admit that fact

[@MindForgedManacle]

Which Luke and liberals more broadly are absolutely willing to do forever.

[@MattZaharias]

And so the frog boils.

[@donavanj.1992]

100% agreed

[@whyythestupidithurts5564]

As someone who grew up in about as far right as could find in states , i saw they crossed the line years and years ago it wasn't trumple orange skin . I wasn't lgbtq, but having friends that are it became clear long ago they literally want carbon copies of them or the others dead and their stoping at the line between was very unlikely... either the others have to live how they see fit or die there isn't a third option to many of these people. Conform or your life is worthless. It's spreading to just being on other side of the issues that irritate them . It's fascism rising period and it has been for decades .

[@maxwellsdemon10]

Honestly, I think the real problem is, that people like Vaush think everything is a lead-up to the fucking Holocaust. When should we take up arms? When the government forced us to wear something like the golden star, aka the mask? Not everything is a precursor to the God damn Holocaust. There is a reason it THE Holocaust and not one of the many Holocausts committed in world history.

[@breezer6568]

I think this is a combination of privilege and a coping mechanism that refuses to acknowledge things are getting worse because you're living a comfortable life. Most marginalized people in this country have been seeing the reality of things getting worse firsthand, but if you're not marginalized maybe these very real issues just seem like a dinner table disagreement to you. Now is the time to do some research on how genocide happens and what authoritarian countries are like. If you don't, you're probably going to get left behind as the people actually getting their rights taken away seem crazier and crazier to you because YOUR life is doing fine and you don't understand anything outside of your perspective.

[@jascu4251]

Right, but the question here is what do we do about it? Are all Republican voters inherently evil, or are there degrees of gradiation? What about people who aren't republican yet (because they aren't old enough to have formulated any views). Is it inevitable that people will become Republicans, genetic in some way? Or is there a process by which it happens? Can this process be interrupted, can people be persuaded or is it inbuilt and there's nothing we can do about it The reason for these questions is, if you tell a section of the voting public they are inexorably evil, persuading people to vote differently becomes more difficult - especially if people then say to undecided people "look they think you're evil" that makes their job easier, and ours harder I'm not saying I know the answers to these questions but I think the question is a utilitarian question, not a moral question. Do we want more polarization, or less, and who benefits from polarisation?

[@MindForgedManacle]

​@@jascu4251 You're asking almost entirely dumb questions. No implication of the badness being intrinsic was made, and in fact that was directly dismissed in the first 10 minutes of the discussion. Likewise with the who is evil question. That was laid against Republican politicians. You claim it makes it harder to vote different, but you're missing the point. The Republicans have now demonstrated for over 20 years that this rhetoric is effective in practice. So the insinuation that you're concerned with practicality falls on deaf ears and looks like a lie. They motivated their base to militant action (with militias all over the country being near exclusively Republican) AND fanatical voting participation. To the point where they tried to overthrow a presidential election with thousands of people, some of whom were f*cking Congressmen. Heck, even below that we had a militia who were planning to kidnap a Democratic governor, they're passing bills to restrict the rights and opportunities of queer people around the country and making it harder for states to ratify Democrat victories in presidential elections. They fired electors in Michigan, for example, because they didn't bypass the will of the voters and give the state to Trump. The Dems have been trying it your way and have completely lost control of the situation because they took everything the GOP dished out on the chin *by choice* because they claimed the GOP voters would see sense. By morality and practicality, their deliberate choice to take the nonexistent high ground when it came to countering Republican fear rhetoric left the Dems with a base of actual weaklings who flinch at the notion they might need to engage in self-defense when the Republicans continue to make good on their promises to overthrow the election. Telling people

[@jascu4251]

@@MindForgedManacle I'm not sure the Dems have been trying it my way! I don't like what the Dems have been doing it all. They've consistently failed to stand for anything! They've been weak in standing for policies, and weak when it comes to opposing other policies. They've not been clear about what they stand for. Democrats need to be clear, strong, and direct, Bernie Sanders is a good example of this Bernie's town hall with Republican voters on Fox was a great success. He was direct, he was strong, and he was clear. He didn't call anybody evil. He saw potential voters and he went in and tried to get them. I'd like to see more of that Dems fall in-between stools, they don't have a coherent message or strategy. I think almost any strategy is better than the non-strategy they're currently employing! Biden flipflopping on student debt is a perfect example. Either forgive, or don't! Take one of these two positions and take it firmly, either yes or no is better than this agonising nothingness that pleases no one. Make a solid coherent vision and sell it!

[@MindForgedManacle]

@@jascu4251 No but they've completely avoided any strong language, like referring to the Republicans as either evil and a threat to democracy. Which are things the Republicans have long claimed of the Democrats, successfully I might add. The reason they won't stand for anything is that requires pointing what exactly is wrong with the other side, and doing it emphatically. Again, the GOP do this all the time, true or not. And Bernie lost. I love him, but his approach was not able to work. We should still try that way too, but we don't have the luxury of waiting on another Bernie. We will lost either 1 or both parts of Congress this year alone. 2024 is probably in favor of the GOP as well. They've already been passing anti-queer legislation and making moves to prevent future Democratic victories. The dems have done NOTHING but seek Republican voters. They thought they would win GOP voters in 2016, under the delusion those voters would be horrified by Trump. They loved him then, and voted even more for him in 2020. It was a delusion. Student debt removal won't budge the needle on the election. His inaction in general guarantees a loss of some kind, of course. But Democrats don't actually fear the GOP the way they need to. Do you think the GOP would let the Dems get off optically scot free if they attempted the insurrection? Hell no, they would ride that to endless victory and end Democracy ASAP. Dems did fu*ck all.

[@pranays]

@@jascu4251 Who cares?? You are not attacking the voters you are only attacking the Republican you are in the election against or in office against. You seem to be confused.

[@NickTheGreatAndPowerful]

Next time someone tells you "Vaush is a liberal", show them this argument between him and an ACTUAL liberal.

[@aquelarre7616]

vaush literally defends nato lol

[@NickTheGreatAndPowerful]

@@aquelarre7616 And?

[@aquelarre7616]

@@NickTheGreatAndPowerful I’m aware that you people don’t see the people living in 3rd word countries as individuals whose lives are just as important as yours, but actually supporting an organization that helps the USA with its imperialistic agenda is a bad thing and it makes you a bad person, I don’t care if you think its beneficial for you.

[@NickTheGreatAndPowerful]

@@aquelarre7616 Imperialism exists without NATO, as do the forces that perpetuate neoliberal hegemony. All NATO is is a military alliance against Russia, a rogue authoritarian fascist state that is itself engaging in Imperialism.

[@aquelarre7616]

@@NickTheGreatAndPowerful There are other way worst authoritarian fascist states that also engage in imperialism and the usa seems to have no problem with them, the only difference is that russia doesn’t completely bow down to the us empire. This is not a defensive alliance, its purpose is to get russia to comply like the rest of the world, in other words, the purpose is to get russia under US control, it’s to further US imperialism (and not only against russia). And the idea that just because the usa would engage in imperialism even if nato didn’t exist somehow justifies its existence, when all It does is facilitate imperialism, it’s ridiculous, what else can you justify with that logic? You’re just regurgitating vaush arguments. If a military alliance against russian imperialism should exist, there’s no reason for the US to be part of it. And at the end of the day, russian imperialism will never be as bad as gringo imperialism is.

[@Fluttersniper]

Civility politics often crosses over with physical/social contact. People criticized Nancy Pelosi for trying to “save” Republicans and Biden for pushing for bipartisanship, but I think I know why they do that: they have to go to work everyday and interact with Republicans. They have to shake hands, they talk to them, they hear about their families and life stories and they hear, constantly, Republicans whispering about how much they hate the rising extremism and want to go back to the way things were. Their mistake is thinking this familiarity will change Rupublicans’ outward advocacy for policies that strip civil rights. Republicans are spineless cowards, without principles. If their base becomes more extreme, they will fall in line with acts and values they personally find detestable. I think appealing to their courage is, at this point, meaningless.

[@Dekubud]

True, and I think Democrats and most Liberals sincerely think that the Golden Rule, going high and being civil will eventually force those who want to harm you see reason. And while it may work in some interpersonal cases, they don't realise it's utterly pointless against people who only see civility and respect as weaknesses to exploit instead of as social tools.

[@bluexephosfan970]

True, very true

[@ProfDCoy]

Yeah, at some point you have to say "what is the point of your principles if you never seem to show them? How are you not evil just because you promise that you're good behind closed doors?"

[@MindForgedManacle]

The problem with this theory is that it's correct in one sense, but misses the obvious issue the Dems are in. The Dems know the Republicans constantly hammer them on insane issues. If they're friendly in-person, yet attacked viciously in public, that should breed actual resentment that boils over. But it virtually never does with the exception of the rare Progressive. Dems are just doormats that we unfortunately have to use as a bulwark against the insane Republicans. If a coup attempt involving 2,500 Republican voters, encouraged by vast swaths of the party and involving some Congressmen didn't wake them from their doldrums, essentially nothing will. Republicans are not spineless when it comes to their own values, they will push with lunatic abandon whatever they happen to believe that given month. They are not less extreme than their base. That's the fantasy of people like Cheyney and the Democrats. if they fall in line, it's usually because they don't really disagree much.

[@jontobin5942]

Analyzing the motivations of others is valuable but we have reached the point where I don't give a shit about friendliness in congress. It's actively destructive. I wouldn't stay friends with a Trump supporter and neither should they. I want Democrats to openly disrespect their counterparts and respond in kind to them. Stop leaving room for them to "do the right thing" they wont. Use any power you can wrest to force them into it. This constant weakness is allowing fascism to grow.

[@ryankelly8074]

Luke's blindness to where we are at with respect to a genocide is really baffling. Does he think every single German was murdering Jews during the Holocaust? No, many weren't even aware of what was going on. The vast majority were anti-Semitic, but not to the point of enacting a genocide. They simply did not care enough to ask "where do those train cars go". "Of course in those examples when the exact same things that are happening now happened, and led to a genocide, violence would have been warranted, but it's not ok now".

[@luchotenks2310]

I think this guy's 'blindness' is not due to a lack of knowledge of history but rather a coping mechanism. As you could see from his body language, just entertaining the basic idea of having to exercise self defense causes him distress, so he naturally dismisses the probability of that scenario taking place. And given the fact that the measures taken to address an issue are (or at leats should be) proportional to their perceived urgency, it is safe to say that his current attitude won't help him avoid the worst case scenario he dreads. That is unless someone else does what is needed to be done for him and spares him the trouble. Needless to say, if shit ever hits the fan, now you know where not to look for volunteers.

[@amberharmsen2497]

There’s also the fact that not every Republican would be for the idea a genocide of Democrats I’m of the idea that the hard core republicans would go the route of calling other republicans not “legitimate” because they disagree Essentially the ones not in favor of what the others are will be othered and there may even be a time like with the 2020 election where republicans will swap parties out of fear of what could happen

[@Feefa99]

He's young, but that's not excuse for not knowing history

[@MrBattlestar10]

So we really think republicans will start rounding up lgbtq people and video gaming them all?

[@AB-zl4nh]

Vaush is being stupid. Genocides occur at the national level & when they very Rai occur at the state lev it's with the Federal government support. Biden & Harris are not going to fucking let a genocide happen in Florida or Texas.

[@Mirrorthrone68]

“Acting like this imminent threat is imminent isn’t sugar coated enough for liberals so its not a good strategy” - this guy

[@hurensohn7605]

reality hurt my fee fees

[@MawcDrums]

More like, "Let's defensively be prepared for this imminent threat in case it happens, but let's not exacerbate it by accelerating the process or further radicalizing our side to initiate the violence."

[@matthewsteele5229]

@@MawcDrums aside from the morality of initiating violence, what’s the worry here? That if we initiate, then they’ll retaliate with the State on their side? My friend, have you heard of BLM? Broken windows at a Wendy’s turned into “rioters are burning down entire cities all over the country” and then we got Rittenhaus. Shit’s already happening. The only difference between now and a militant left is that WHEN the right retaliates against violence (real or not) and the State lets it happen, we won’t get wiped out in the initial wave of armed conflict

[@MaleckinJinx]

This kid needs to realize there is nothing wrong with having contingencies in place when shit inevitably goes sideways.

[@NuttyAs]

“Why would I have an umbrella at home? It’s not raining right now?” Hard headed guy with nothing backing him apart from, “I think this looks bad”

[@SleepyPossums]

His entire argument distills down to: “You catch more flies with honey than vinegar!” And Vaush is like “Wtf man TAKE THE FLYSWATTER ALREADY”

[@William-Morey-Baker]

its not even true... you literally catch more flies with vinegar... its not even close.

[@Meinfuhrerhoffman]

Yeah and the flies are giant and have a venomous bite.

[@mo-s-]

And the flies are murder hornets

[@latenightdriver9680]

Luke isnt wrong. Dude has pulled more former repubs to vote for biden this election than Vaush and his sneering viewers have a shot at. And I say this as a big Vaush fan. Beasley is a good ally to progress. I can often tell, by how much more hopeful and rallied behind "saving democracy" that his viewers usually are, compared to how doompilled Vaush chat and commenters usually are. Guys like Beasley speak to a broader audience, it's very good onboarding for more progressive views.

[@AroAceGamer]

The issue is that the Left doesn't seem to have the stomach for this. Where are the Left Wing Militias to counter the Right Wing Militas? We are at an extreme disadvantage. The desire for civility is going to lead to our extinction.

[@allsmiles7106]

@OldSkool Groovist let's ride brother!!!

[@allsmiles7106]

That comments probably gonna put me on a list

[@jascu4251]

I think a key point here though is the fact that the Right Wing Militias and Police forces have significant overlap

[@Dekubud]

I don't think so. Through History, lefties have always fought and sacrificed themselves harder than fascists, for the simple reason that we actually believe in something and that something is constructive. Look at how many BLM protests there were, how big they were. Lefties always look weak compared to fascists because our aim isn't violence and we don't posture. The strength of the fascists is in the leaders: without those leaders, they fall apart. The strength of lefties is the people: we don't need to be told what to do, we have never depended on a monopoly on violence or money to exist or organize. However, out biggest flaw is that we tend to only use violence as personal self-defense and not as a preventative measure or social defense.

[@jascu4251]

@@Dekubud I partially agree here. I definitely agree that the strength of fascists is largely about leaders (though there is a significant percentage where the attraction is just violence in and of itself, with ideology much less prevalent than we might think) I'm circumspect about the use of violence itself, though I do think it depends on the context. The strength of BLM was the size, the numbers, but if they had been more explicitly violent (rather than violence sometimes spilling out of them), those numbers would have been a lot smaller

[@thatguy779]

This man just said he *barely* prefers defensive violence against attackers to the bigoted violence of the aggressors

[@gamedude412]

So what happens when your “defensive violence” is met by better “defensive violence”. Because your leftist violence only burns minorities’ businesses and trying to burn down a concrete courthouse for a 100+ days and failed

[@thatguy779]

Your mom can finally come up for air

[@hansuluthegrey8524]

Violence is worse then defending yourself from violence to him

[@gamedude412]

@@hansuluthegrey8524 The civil rights weren’t won thru better violence. It was won but pacifism in the face of violence.

[@MindForgedManacle]

@@gamedude412 And by threat of violence if rights were refused. And besides, the end of US democracy absolutely was not the issue during the 60s.

[@Southboundpachyderm]

This guy says hes a soc dem but he literally parrots almost every single moderate white voter criticism that MLK JR had for America.

[@saliv88]

They’ve earned being called evil.

[@collinp.9891]

Facts

[@AB-zl4nh]

Who are winning over by calling the Republican Party evil? The Left barely vote and many on the Right will never vote for Dems. It doesn't achieve anything useful in terms of winning elections and enacting real change.

[@AB-zl4nh]

@@collinp.9891 Who are winning over by calling the Republican Party evil? The Left barely vote and many on the Right will never vote for Dems. It doesn't achieve anything useful in terms of winning elections and enacting real change.

[@Limbaugh_]

Fr

[@Beeeep24]

Lefties looking like idiots per usual lol

[@LotharOfTheHillPeople]

We must be civil! If we call the psychos psychos they'll continue being psychos, but if we stop calling them psychos maybe they'll only be mostly-psychos!

[@dinosaysrawr]

"We need to be civil with these people who have no qualms about calling us groomers, pedos, authoritarians, SJWs, and baby-eating Satanists."

[@DodoticsJ4]

This but unironically

[@mckenzie.latham91]

This is like “The Nazis would have been more friendly if we hadn’t called them fascists” logic

[@DodoticsJ4]

@@mckenzie.latham91 yes, u could have de radicalised some of them I'm sure

[@MindForgedManacle]

@@DodoticsJ4 Your plan of inaction isn't a plan.

[@reesf743]

A narcissist doesn't listen to criticism, and that's why it's important for them to hear it. If you act evil, I'm calling it out

[@RenEmell]

Well, I never thought "learn how to shoot a gun at a range" would be on my To Do list but here we are

[@TheAmericanAmerican]

As a born and raised cuckservative turnedsocialist, I can 100% approve Vaush's points here... I legitimately fear how my trump loving family would react if they knew just how far left I've become. The only thing I hold onto from my right-wing upbringing is my knowledge and appreciation for guns as tools for defense. Seriously learn about them and how to shoot, guys, because history seems to actually repeat itself and we are in fact 1922 Germany...

[@nivelcourbiche6140]

spend your money elsewhere

[@Gingersnaps_the_pumpkin_kitty]

This is union busting but for politics. "They might crack down harder on us if we fight back" as if they aren't already trying.

[@LJStability]

I think this guy needs to read, "They Thought They Were Free". That would definitely explain why this attitude doesn't work. It's the same shit.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

Nazis Germany proves why the approach doesn’t work there is no greater historic example and or teaching moment This Neville Chamberlin, peace party shit fails when one realizes that A. no one thought there was a genocide going on until they liberated the camps b. but even before that, people wee being shot in the streets, disappeared by the secret police, and the curbing of all demonstration and democratic laws and norms

[@rudeboyjohn3483]

Lol boy actually whined about how we shouldn't make the people that are literally looking to murder him and us "afraid". WTF. Dude, this guy is destined for greatness in the Democratic party

[@5TailFox]

It's easy to care more about optics when you're not going to be the one who's targeted by all the actual injustices.

[@jansojele289]

So?

[@ButteredToits-]

@@jansojele289 what kind of low iq response is this

[@tylerhackner9731]

No because they are evil and we should say that

[@motorcycleman115]

Imagine if acknowledging basic reality was bad for the left

[@mogscugg2639]

Be your local Doomguy :)

[@TheSquareheadgamer]

@@mogscugg2639 yes. Evil is subjective

[@user-sm1bi5ix6l]

@@mogscugg2639 best comment. Fr, we need to become doomguy or we're fucked.

[@MawcDrums]

You think the average Fox News watching boomer wal-mart shopper is actually evil and impossible to be convinced? They had their minds changed to get to that point, they can be changed again.

[@JBlazingit]

I haven’t seen the debate yet, but just looking at the question you got to ask yourself Why is it only the left that seems to care about calling republicans evil? I last time I have ever seen a Republican care was when John McCain defend Obama saying he wasn’t a muslin. It’s so one-sided I just don’t understand

[@jascu4251]

I think the reason to care about whether or not to call republicans evil isn't a moral one, its a practical or utilitarian one. There are arguments for and against this, but its a decision of practicality rather than of morals. If we call some voters evil, the problem is that hardcore republicans point to this and tell moderate republicans, swing voters, new voters, uncertains, independents "see they hate you". This is counter-productive if we want those people not to vote Republican

[@1OtherMr]

@@jascu4251 the same goes the other way. When republicans do it they """"could"""" be harming themselves, and yet, you can see that republicans didn't really stop. That rhetoric works, because (obviously) you don't just call people evil, you point to what they're doing and say "that's why they're evil", and no sane person is going to look at the laundry list of all the shit republicans do and go "I dunnuh, maybe I should vote for them. Republicans need to make shit up to call the left evil, we don't even need to make shit up to throw it right back at them. JFC why is this even a question. Everybody's utilitarian until you have to actually do utilitarian shit.

[@jascu4251]

@@1OtherMr Well so for example, do you know any Republicans? have any Republican family members, colleagues, friends? I think the question here becomes, how do we stop those people from being Republicans? Or is it hard-wired and impossible?

[@1OtherMr]

@@jascu4251 Answer is yes to all of those, and it doesn't change anything I said. Nothing less than what Republicans do on a daily basis is going to work. People aren't Republicans because they're rudely misinformed or whatever naive presumption some people have. Most people don't even look for sources, they just want shit that reaffirms their preexisting belief, and can only be moved through emotion and abstractions, if at all. We on the left have the advantage that every appeal to emotion we make can be backed up with facts and every abstraction will lead to a better america. And if Republicans don't like getting called evil for all the shit they've pulled so far then that's their affair.

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@jascu4251 Most people seem to argue this from a moral feelings perspective, actually. Such as a deluded belief in nobility and "being the bigger person". The problem is that different tactics work on different people. The kinds of people who join QAnon aren't receptive to calm or nice or rational. They're just looking for an enemy to hate and fear. Trying to get to them with facts or critical arguments isn't doing shit, because they didn't logic themselves into that position. In the first place, fascism gets to people by appealing to their tribalist monkey brains and pointing to some people to call... well, ontologically evil. Whether it's Jews or non-whites or "Bolsheviks". So the counterargument is, fight like with like and power with power, because strength is all some people respect. Perceived weakness drives people away from the far right because they don't want to be associated with weak people and weak ideologies. So we just gain whatever influence it takes to be able to determine what, to those who are driven by emotions and outward appearances, looks weak and stupid, and we leverage it as hard as we can. So they think "Man, I don't want to look like one of those fascist r*tards" and don't join up. The thing we need to watch out for on the left is that a lot of people on the left also think the same way... So the key in doing this is not to actually buy into it. It's a tool, not a foundational belief. It's not a lie, but not our entire worldview either. Don't actually believe that the right is ontologically evil. Believe their outcomes are evil and their mindsets lead to that evil because sociological forces instilled those mindsets. But keep the ontological meme because it's useful in leveraging the "Ew, I don't want to be associated with those people” knee-jerk disgust people rarely see past.

[@eyeguyart8685]

You can tell everything you need to know from this conversation by the way he physically winces every time Vaush mentions arming one's self, and what's funny is that I don't even know if he realizes he's doing it

[@mogscugg2639]

Voosh should have said 'in terraria' the absolute buffoon

[@bananamerchant6387]

He's literally against the concept of defending ones self.

[@domm5715]

him and his friends are why we are loosing, they already tried to overthrow democracy, and we didnt do shit, and he still scared of saying the bare min, defending yourself

[@annaclarafenyo8185]

I'm not sure he's even a leftist, or if he's a trojan horse trying to prevent leftists from using successful language.

[@rudeboyjohn3483]

@@annaclarafenyo8185 pretty sure he's a plant. I mean, it's always about how you can't defend yourself from oppression or someone trying to kill you. It's all about letting the monsters win. There's a reason for that.

[@GraceDupre]

What struck me about this one live was that the “demons in human flesh” line was dropped *during the Roe v Wade* video…and this kid seemed stuck on the idea that Republicans can just do what they want. Big clueless privilege energy, I hope he learned something.

[@The_Rutabaga]

“Being a fun little movement of online people that’s screaming about being prepared for some kind of huge violent clash does not have broad appeal.” *Le Republican Party has arrived*

[@chegg7660]

I don't even think this discussion is a debate over desired ends, this is just a conflict between levels of faith in liberal democracy to protect itself from fascism

[@shadewings]

But our democracy has been and will be slowly pulled apart piece by piece. This is why Vaush says what he does.

[@Etherchannel]

You clearly have no idea what fascism is.

[@esbenm6544]

@@Etherchannel cope

[@0osamboo0]

As a transgender person (and leftist) I in no way think that Vaush is being alarmist. The scapegoating of trans people in the UK and US is only escalating. You've only got to imagine how far it can go when a whole group of people are likened to child groomers (whom society often considers deserving of death penalty).

[@kynixie]

To me vaush is a calming influence... I can't even be sure I can go to Canada anymore (they might swing right)

[@Putri-iu4bc]

Saying that we should essentially kumbaya our rhetoric to "get the majority (centrists etc) on board" is just another way to say "let's be weaker and hope that works." Cause republicans sure as fuck havent bothered to make themselves appealing to the average joe, but look at where they are. All tamping down on socialist rhetoric does is leave us with the same liberal bullshit weve always had, where we try to placate fascists and let them win as we do it.

[@rudeboyjohn3483]

Stealing your quote because yea, goddamn

[@Beeeep24]

Im Curious how y’all would feel if someone went and murdered a bunch of conservatives because they thought they were planning a genocide. I’m assuming that y’all would be okay with that right?

[@HannahNoell]

idk man, is calling the people who want you dead for no other reason than that you exist "evil" bad?

[@hieithefox]

This seriously obviously this dude isn’t being threatened on the daily and is in a more privileged group because I keep seeing my rights and the rights of my community come under fire by people who hate me and want me dead

[@verager2493]

Yep. I constantly see threats to genocide me and others, and libs always avert their eyes.

[@kurtacus3581]

@@hieithefox being privileged isnt even excuse, honestly. Im pansexual, but im also a white cis guy and havent had threats put towards me and even im more aware than him. He's just ignorant of reality at this point. He just wants to put his head in the sand and wait for it all to blow over. He just thinks "the good guys always win". He cant even comprehend how if republicans win in 2024 and completely gut our democracy that there is no way to come back and win after that. Like what shit is he smoking because i want some

[@Kevo6492]

I do think Vaush can be irresponsible with his rhetoric but the main crux of his argument is sound. I’m not there yet on speaking with neighbors and stocking up on weaponry, but I would say if you can be responsible do get a weapon and practice how to use it. Also the MSM and Democrats need to be tougher on the GOP obviously. If Biden wanted to spend his time in Buffalo to more so honor the victims I can respect that but outside of that he needs to actually use his bully pulpit. Like it’s time to stop playing nice and call a spade a spade. They need to be called out for the fascists they are and that term has to be used. Conservatives make it seem the country is on the brink because pronouns. Like Vaush says Dems need to come up with similar rhetoric but difference is it’s the truth. Say Republicans want your daughter to carry her r@pists baby. Tell them the state wants to take your trans child away from you.

[@TheRunawayTradwife]

Agreed

[@takeshikovax6254]

Talking to neighbors is going too far.

[@Kevo6492]

@@takeshikovax6254 I clearly mean in the context of a looming fascist threat and to stock up on defenses for it.

[@virtualgambit577]

It depends on your relationship with your neighbors and where you live. Obviously, reaching out to your QAnon neighbor to coordinate defenses isn’t going to go down well. But talking to a reasonable neighbor saying “if anything ‘crazy’ happens, here’s what we can do”. You can even discuss it as part of your natural disaster planning if your neighbors do that. Just depends on who your neighbors are and your relationship with them.

[@cv4809]

Then the word fascist just won't have any weight. At this point you might as well use the word conservative itself as a slur

[@craigcroy4615]

What's the old saying "evil doesn't win when bad men do bad things, but when good me do nothing" or something like that.

[@rudeboyjohn3483]

58:59 "I'm not really familiar with the timeline" --regarding the build up to fascism and the nazis. That right there, chap. You admitted that you have no interest in acknowleding the state of genocidal progress, which this debate is all about.

[@jo0rd73]

It’s obviously extremely difficult to look at how possible a genocide is but the fact it’s even on the table should be terrifying. The problem is people who aren’t far left will say it’s not gonna happen again and again until it finally does. They can’t acknowledge the steps being taken and it pisses me off. We are talking about peoples lives here. “What if we’re wrong?” I literally don’t give a fuck I’d rather take the gamble and act as if millions of lives are at stake rather than look in hindsight and think “damn if only we saw this coming”. Civility politics is sickening at this stage, we are dealing with a fascist right wing where Nazis like tucker carlson and MTG give what are considered ‘mainstream right wing opinion’. We have tried again and again to talk this through, discuss our issues with their ideology, state the facts of the matter and still little to none of these crazy demons political power has been taken away. We go all out and fight fire with fire at this stage.

[@gigaliberal3583]

Not giving a fuck about the truth and demonizing your political opposition ,but still claiming the moral high ground. No one is asking you to lick the boots of conservatives ,but instead talking to them as humans to be able tochange their mind.

[@fartyfazbear1932]

We just need to pokemon go! To the polls!

[@dehistoriapisciumfish7639]

Yeah, I wonder if the US will become a Hungary/Turkey style dictatorship if Trump gets in power again. Considering how those countries developed it does not seem far off. So I think the left has to kind of be ready to defend their rights and democracy. Not through attacking random republicans, of course not. But some kind of defense against Proud Boy types maybe. Like a more organized Antifa that only acts in self defense?

[@DodoticsJ4]

A genocide is not on the table outside the most extreme left online voices

[@50733Blabla1337]

@@DodoticsJ4 "right wingers and enlightened centrists dont see it". Ah well no shit sherlock one side wants it and the other are blind to anything not directly touching them. Also "extreme left" is telling on yourself

[@eeneranna9795]

I think I get his opinion. He's trying to say that the militant framing of arming oneself for an oncoming genocide isn't really going to sell to centrists who wish they could just "talk it out". I don't think it's wrong, but I feel like it comes down to how we view genocide and violence. When he hears political violence, he thinks full on war and chaos. Think the ending scene of Joker (its the only example that came to my mind, bare with me). When in reality it's not that. It'll be police brutality cases rising and more of a push of this "thugs and criminals" mentality. Same thing with the genocide part. I really like how Vaush phrased how conservatives think of racism. "It begins and ends with burning crosses". Same thing here. Unless there is a "kill queer people" bill passed, genocide isnt happening. But it's a frog in a pot of water thing. You slowly raise the temperature with ideological associations (queer people are groomer), and move into legislation getting passed to "protect kids" (don't say gay bill), and then legislation gets put in trying to ban them from existing (Alabama's anti trans bill). I feel like this guy understands the seriousness of what's going on, but not the weight of it. We need to not just get people to oppose these bills and ideologies, but actively fight against it. Voting only does so much, but people centrists and liberals think anything more than that is "going to far". I'm not sure how to fix this and convince them that we need to act against these policies.

[@rainbowkrampus]

"I feel like this guy understands the seriousness of what's going on, but not the weight of it." Yep. It's not real for him on a visceral level. He thinks he understands but he lacks the experience and the sense of what it's like to value something so much that the loss of it would be literally unbearable. In other words, he's young. Hopefully he doesn't have to learn about such things the hard way.

[@Gingersnaps_the_pumpkin_kitty]

Dude we low-key need to stop normalizing stupid harmful and ignorant positions. These people are anti-conflict not anti-abuse, they don't care how they just want the political inconveniences to stop. Centrists are just conservative lite, they're less motivated to actually accomplish anything but they literally say the same shit, like how change is bad. Hence why they don't like the idea of oppressed groups fighting for their rights, they simply use "pacifism" as a shield because it sounds less assholish. *Hating politics isn't quirky.* *Complaining about how people aren't compromising on their human rights is selfish.* *Wanting everyone to "get along" rather than for everyone to be treated equally is coddling abusers.* *Not every opinion or question is valid as some shit genuinely should not be said.* *Your opinions and beliefs do in fact say something about the kind of person you are, that not your cover their judging but your content.* *Nothing is black and white, even violence.* *And if you think the biggest issue in politics is the name calling or the fact that there are multiple options, you friend are nothing more than an useful idiot.* I feel like these points just tell people who aren't total fucking monsters that it's okay to do nothing and in fact everyone must do nothing but stopping abusers is something so they don't wanna. Mean while the dangerous ones are out there sharpening their pitchforks and the few opposed to it are fighting both sets of assholes.

[@Tahllia]

@@rainbowkrampus He seems like a well off white man who can pass for straight, living in Texas. He will likely NEVER learn things the hard way.

[@curses6166]

Liberals and centrists think that people like Vaush are crazy for thinking a genocide is on the horizon.

[@Dekubud]

This talk made me realise that if the US becomes fascist, it will make every superpower in the world a fascist regime. Russia, China and the USA, three countries that together possess 90% of the world's active nuclear warheads (mostly Russia and the US). This is a disastrous scenario, especially since the other countries who have most of those warheads, the UK and France, aren't exactly moving away from fascism themselves.

[@MagusMirificus]

Yeah our biggest hope right now is that the EU gets its shit together and forms a strong alliance with Canada; I imagine if they don't fall to fascism themselves they'll eventually piss us off and we'll try and start some shit, and then they rebuild our government after it collapses at the end of the war, just like the forties.

[@adrianopolis8777]

What’s scarier is that the US has the most powerful military in the world. If we go fascist, no single nation could stop us. The world would be our dominion, and the only two countries that COULD have the capability of stopping us, Russia and China, have significant internal issues and military weaknesses that could easily be overwhelmed by American military technology.

[@50733Blabla1337]

Thats a big yikes and something I didnt even see :(

[@TravisWayne254]

If the US becomes fascist it’ll basically be 1984 and Canada as well all of Europe and NATO will all be fascist as well due to American influence. I hope none of this happens.

[@stevonwhite8933]

I’m ready for the astroid now…

[@fen4613]

I was gonna say the "nobody watched Tucker Carlson and then is like 'oh, I wanna commit violence!'" aged poorly with the recent shooting… but hasn’t this actually happened before? Like multiple times? Is he unaware of the backstories of terror attacks or in denial of them

[@forgottenlurker2428]

During Trumps term I was in fear of getting deported or detained by I.C.E. I had a family member detained and they were harassing Latine and hispanic people all throughout my community. I was in constant fear that I would be next because I'm also a first generation immigrant. I had Co-workers in fear that not only ICE detainments but also fearing for their safety due to being Latine. THIS WAS HAPPENING IN WASHINGTON STATE!! Not a red state, not a red district in Washington state. Blue district and the Blue state that is Washington.....IN 2018!!! I hate to be this person, but the dude is talking from a SUUUUPER privileged perspective. I'm saying this not by the way he looks, but by the way he's acting and speaking. Even from my position as a relatively privileged first generation immigrant the fear of ICE detainment, and possibly deportation was VERY REAL and if we don't take the Republican politicians as the serious threats they are it could get even WORSE.

[@thecriticalone1783]

I'm scared of random people finding out that im trans. I got called a groomer just for being trans. This shit is scary and this guy doesn't seem to realize how bad it is. Roe v Wade and all the anti trans bills is just the start.

[@jeremysmith2725]

This is the type of guy who when far right wing private militias start going door to door he will slip into the bushes like the Homer Simpson meme and rat out all of his minority friends.

[@rudeboyjohn3483]

"But ... we have to cooperate with them! If we give them what they want..." "Dude...they want to kill us." "...well...maybe not me...right?"

[@jamesreynold6711]

Big Kyle Kulinski energy Not that that’s inherently bad it’s just entry level and naive Give this guy more and engagement with hard-right people and he may well move further to the combative left

[@rainbowkrampus]

Yeah, dude had a downright pleasant conversation with a conservative and came away thinking he understands them as a group. Ah, youth.

[@hansuluthegrey8524]

He totally flinched at throwing bricks at people that want u dead or imprisoned

[@bluhmer1990]

It's SO telling that Luke had no answer to when Vaush asked him what he would do what Republicans take all the power and start making undemocratic laws.

[@hurensohn7605]

Maybe wants to debate with them. „hey you know taking away peoples rights is kinda unpoggers. I found several studies saying fascism is bad.“

[@goose5761]

@@hurensohn7605 what would Vaush’s answer to that be? Sit in a chair and do the exact same shit?

[@luminousghosts]

I had the same journey, I would have described myself as a centrist too, "both sides are extreme and extreme = bad". I think what made the difference is losing unfounded faith in the system and that good people always wins. That may be a product of our media, where it mostly does, but what we don't see is that the people need to actually fight for it to win. There's no 'cosmic good' that will win over fascism. And of course realizing that capitalism is the reason for most of our fucking problems. Or rather, finding an actual alternative through socialism.

[@freedomofmusic2112]

This debate deserves to be on the main channel. I'm kinda shocked it isn't, this is a pretty important topic. I think this kid was made in a lab. Some scientists said, "I wonder if we can make the most libby lib that ever libbed?" And it was a success

[@jansojele289]

He is really chill imo

[@bibsp3556]

Hes saying you gotta get punched out cold before you swing back.

[@bitacrumpet]

This guy clapped the hardest at that "if I were Putin's mother" poem.

[@anthonymontague756]

This reminds me of an old story my father told me that helped prevent me from ever being that into gun control when I was a lib. A friend of his had the Klan come for her father during the 1960s. She was a little girl and remembered being told to hide under the bed. Her father met them at the door with a shotgun and they backed off.

[@hinaruto43ver]

This guy's position seems to be "you're not wrong that fascists are gaining power, and you're not wrong that there may be death to come, but that's no reason to tell people about it and say that we should prepare for violence."

[@ShadowDragon1848]

I think the biggest problem is: Fascism doesn't need to wear black uniforms and swastika armbands. Modern day American fascism would probably look and behave to historical European or present day European fascism. Look at Russia, it's technically far away from being actual Nazi Germany. BUT I think we would all still agree that it is fascist, or at least very close to it. I´m from Germany and have no conclusive opinion on the American situation, but it´s very very dire.

[@nochillwill4667]

This kid pisses me off, YOU'RE NOT WORRIED BECAUSE YOU CAN HIDE IF THINGS GO BAD. I am black and in the south, I am a target. Boy sounds just like Pelosi.

[@roberteriksen6434]

Vaush is wrong here. The three most important political wins is the independence of black people not to be slaves, the removal of the royal family as political leaders, and the defeat of the Nazi regime. All of them were achieved by turning the other cheek and being the bigger man, I was taught that in my christian homeschooling. We just need to be nicer to the people we percieve to be evil, they are like us more than we'd think! They will be powerless against it and realize their mistakes. I almost died writing that one.

[@Kropothead]

You had me going for a minute, man.

[@MindForgedManacle]

goddammit I was ready to be angry

[@glumdrop4672]

The problem I experience is when you try to explain to normies just how deranged the right has become they just don't believe you, so it really depends who you're talking to. Sometimes it's easier to focus on explaining why their policies are bad.

[@kurtacus3581]

Its because the right has successfully convinced people that their extreme takes are now the avearage and moderate takes to have for the right. There is no leftists tucker carlson equivalent on CNN preaching LGBT advocacy and discussing socialist policies. To a normie, right wing extremeism is the norm. its "oh thats just how they are, they're crazy" and hand wave great replacement talking points away like its their crazy uncle at Thanksgiving. Just look how this guy cringes and defelcts when vaush even slighty eludes to defending ourselves or taking any sort of direct action, even when discussing Jews defending themselves. The right can say and do what they want because "thats just how they are" but the left cant be anything more than fickle, weak, kumbaya types because thats all they see in popular media and anything slightly more strong than that is fringe and extremist. He cant even say republicans are evil when that has been what the right has said about the left for a century

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

But the policy shows the derangement

[@patricksikhrangkur8814]

My coworker is a big MAGA guy. He's also a guy that goes on a lot of rants. I've heard him talk about his family, who he swears are intelligent but just don't see the truth. I've seen him talk about how he doesn't engage with sports or with his favorite actors or authors anymore, because they shit-talked Trump. MAGA is his life. He has his job, and nothing else.

[@younggod5230]

10-50 Iq: Nooooo, the other political side is unironically evil!!! 100 Iq: Noooo both sides are humans, and we need communication to solve our problems! 200 Iq: Haha, the other side is unironically evil.

[@MawcDrums]

250 IQ There are evil people on both sides at the extremes but most people aren't at those extremes.

[@braydenlanter95]

@@MawcDrums300 iq: there ARE extremes on both sides, but the MOST DANGEROUS and LARGEST group of extremists come the the far right who are unironically evil.

[@MawcDrums]

@@braydenlanter95 very true. I'd say dangerous extremist leftists only make up a small proportion of the left, where as extremist conservatives are way more numerous and way dumber lol

[@HolyKingKong]

​@@MawcDrums 30 IQ take

[@MawcDrums]

@@HolyKingKong want to elaborate?

[@sheepwshotguns42]

Is evil too kind a word to describe the republican party

[@markk7082]

Yeah for real. Compared to the unhinged, lunatic shit they call the left, evil is the most tepid criticism.

[@bewing77]

He's a personification of the problem: the belief that a fascist takeover is some sort of hyperbole. I spoke to my old teacher in conflict politics from WP, who has been doing quite a bit of research in how democracies die and succumb to totalitarianism and he pretty much is of the opinion US democracy was lost years ago and we are currently seeing it collapsing. But people in the US are so used to liberal democracy being a law of nature that they can't even fathom anything else. On the other side of the isle, among Republicans, the same "illness" also contributes when their voters don't take seriously the oversteps and weakening of democratic institutions, basically thinking it's a workable avenue to temporarily set aside democracy to push through their ideas, after which things will snap back to normal, being unable to understand that totalitarianism lasts for decades, nor how horrible it is to live under, for everyone, including inner circle loyalists. People have to understand how democracies die, and how the big bang, where the bad guys officially take over and ends things might never happen, and if it does it's just a formality, every practical step already being in place. This guy, like so many liberals seems to believe we are at a point in history where we are fighting for the power to drive home further progressive change and must play careful politics to do so, where in reality we are in an entirely different place, where we are fighting to retain basic freedoms and to protect any of the progress made during the last century. We need to make these people understand they are entirely wrong and that the threat right now isn't to the ability to move further, but to the ability for all of us to continue to live lives of relative freedom.

[@user-gc1wj8tt2p]

lmao you have no clue how politics work. My way don't work, shoot them.

[@CarpeDonnelly]

If I had a nickel for every socially awkward, unassertive, soft spoken dude with vocal fry and ambient lighting in his room starting a politics show or a podcast, I would have SO MANY NICKELS

[@YomiTheBeast]

LMFAO

[@cosmictraveler1146]

WHY IS IT SO COMMON??

[@dr17719]

No one listens to their milquetoast opinions IRL so getting a camera and microphone operates as a way for them to be “heard.”

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

Too bad he's cute af though :(

[@theelordpyro]

wtf is wrong with calling a spade a spade?! ffs, kids these days.

[@xboxollieify]

I really feel like this is one of those debates that is going to be vindicating in 5 years

[@nickfinan6031]

Probably closer to 3 years

[@Nyanx4]

Let's be real here, half of the people who would feel vindicated by it will have their voting rights stripped from them, or they'll be in jail or marked as a felon, or they'll have been fuckin' lynched. This kid is standing idly by while it happens, wringing his hands as it gets more and more apparent that we're not talking about his single mildly conservative _aunt_ when we say that fascists are preparing to kill us.

[@gibsonn2018]

@@nickfinan6031 I give it 2 if that

[@helios566]

I'd rather it wasn't but I think you might be right.

[@HolyKingKong]

If it's still up and not taken down

[@soyuzsovietsky]

The way he keeps being like “easy, the public will get sick of it and vote them out” as a response to “what if they completely take away our democracy?” is absolutely brain dead. We CANT vote them out if we CANT VOTE??? Come on, man!

[@patkohler9695]

There is an element of class reductionist to Luke's arguments. He kept bringing up how economically left some conservatives were. But the politicians they vote for and the policies they support all seem to indicate they aren't. Tucker Carlson himself says he's pro M4A but how much time does he dedicate to that issue as opposed to anything else. Can anyone find me one elected republican at the state or federal level that supports m4A, paid maternity leave,.

[@redgladius9919]

This was a good reminder of why I'm a Dem-Soc and not a Soc-Dem.

[@dcmarvelcomicfans9458]

Same

[@MeMe-nm7jr]

Some socdems will disagree with his position about calling Republicans evil or his civility arguments. It has nothing to do with social democracy or democratic socialism. You can be a socialist or not and agree with him or not. You're ascribing things to socialism that aren't socialist.

[@sothisisbasicallyhow4696]

“So you want to do violence against fascists??” “Yes.”

[@hurensohn7605]

sigma move

[@caesarplaysgames]

Only problem is Vaush’s definition of a fascist is tenuous at best and completely bullshit at worst.

[@sothisisbasicallyhow4696]

@@caesarplaysgames what’s your definition of a fascist? How does Vaush’s differ from that

[@kap1618]

The fact that this guy brought up the civil rights movement makes me sick. He is the white moderate mlk warned us about Vaush is unquestionably right to warn people.

[@JonathanYoungZ_Kaiser]

Yeah, this is where Vaush is losing me. It’s obviously a bad strategy politically and morally to call your political opponents evil. Evil is a term that dehumanizes and begins to justify a mass shooting level of violence.

[@JonathanYoungZ_Kaiser]

@@yaraya. I wouldn’t have been sympathetic to this idea 6 months ago, but I am now.

[@aegis_knight]

This reminds me of the video from Innuendo Studio "We go high, they go low." We can't sacrifice our lives and freedom just for appealing to the moral sense of our oppressors.

[@bobasaurusrexy]

The vast majority of Americans are pro choice, but they are close to overturning Roe V Wade. And this guy thinks because the vast majority of Americans support LGBTQ+ the 6:3 Supreme Court won’t take away their rights? What?

[@kenjen9861]

And then they did overturn Roe V. Wade.

[@draunt7]

Deeper I get into this video, the more I keep thinking. "This guy is gonna get us all killed".

[@annaclarafenyo8185]

You have to be more specific: which guy?

[@draunt7]

@@annaclarafenyo8185 lol tbh kind of both, but at least Vaush is correct about the need to be armed. IMO these are the people Vaush needs to be talking to. Conservatives are too far gone, and we need more radically minded libs converting to our side to recognize the severity of the moment.

[@pako5586]

@@annaclarafenyo8185 the liberals THE LIBERALS ARE OUR ANCHOR AS WE DROWN IN A SEA OF RED

[@jackxv]

This has been a very frustrating debate to watch. Like, DUDE. WITH THE BLONDE HAIR. Just admit that your plan is to do nothing.

[@virtualgambit577]

Unfortunately, Luke did not understand that there is no “next election” if anti-democratic candidates are voted in to put anti-democratic policies in place. He kept saying how moderate Republicans would realize it’s wrong which (even if they did) would make zero difference if there isn’t another election. That’s it, it’s too late.

[@sameyo]

The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[@mckenzie.latham91]

I keep a copy of that book and a few others in my car and etc Always be prepared.

[@strongbone9471]

If it sounds like a duck And if it talks like a duck And if it walks like a duck I think it's fair to call that thing a duck.

[@MagusMirificus]

ANd if it walks like a goose it's fair to call it a Nazi.

[@maxwessel7786]

When vaush asked him if he would actively resist unjust laws once it past a certain point The way this boy said "...of course" I don't think even he believed himself. There is no grit in this one. By the time things hit his line of immediate action it would be well beyond his courage. That's liberals for ya.

[@dr17719]

Great for Vaush to post this. People need to see how ineffective Luke’s position is - Luke is setting himself up to be a defenseless victim. Everything about him from his justification for nonaction to his communication style is just passive and ineffectual. Sad to see, but we need to see it. Interesting how he couldn’t let Vaush finish a point because Vaush knows exactly how he comes off, but he himself doesn’t like the fact that people have pegged him exactly as he presents himself.

[@LegoandmoviereviewsBlogspot]

If we’re talking MTG or Matt Gaetz (pictured in the thumbnail), then yes... I hope we can at least agree on that

[@Neko1Trick]

Q-Anon is an actual cult no joke or meme like according to multiple models used to determine if an organization is a cult they are literally a cult, cult members will do ANYTHING.

[@helios566]

A cult that's end game is to kill large amounts of political opponents. But you can't call them evil.

[@soccerguy325]

44:19 "We're already in the point in the history where it's getting near too late to do anything." Goddamn that's powerful.

[@Charles-pf7zy]

23:03 “when that happens I want guys to be able to take shots at them from apartment windows” BAD FUCKING ASS BRO. I wish more leftists start becoming more badass gung ho, none of the feminine soy shit I’m embarrassed to be associated with. We need real rifle clubs

[@JebeckyGranjola]

Agree with your message, but what does feminine have to do with it? Look at the women in Ukraine. Hell, even look at GQP women like Lauren Bobblehead. They can do it. The Left needs badasses, but we don't need actual toxic masculinity.

[@rudeboyjohn3483]

Somehow, I don't think the "Lets Be weaker and not defend ourselves" strategy is the best option here

[@connort3186]

Guy said they wouldn’t go after gay marriage and contraception….. here we are

[@coaxill4059]

Bro, you keep saying "fighting in the street" when vaush said "gunmen shooting from apartments." He's explicitly and specifically talking about the capacity for defensive violence, which in certain extreme cases might warrant aggressive action. There's no nuance to his concept of politics, and his view is unfortunately common.

[@honor2996]

Ok Vaush saying we should kick down the doors the Republican Party and END them is too much for me lol

[@honor2996]

Clip in question 1:06:00

[@caesarplaysgames]

@@ruhhills8310 And he said Republicans are equivalent to Nazis multiple times in this video. He directly called them fascists. Don’t fall for his irony posting bullshit.

[@rogerbaker9353]

Words can't discribe how much I had to pause and take a long cope drag to attempt to process what Luke was saying. I admire his optimism, but fuck. There's blood on the street, and the enemy's at the gates.

[@CD-tk2oc]

Saying that you don’t advocate for violence right after claiming you should be able to take shots at people in trucks driving by is some insane mental gymnastics.

[@SkrumpBumpky]

I am a competitor in an arm wrestling contest. I come to the stage, and put out my hand for a friendly handshake before the event. My opponent flies out and breaks my nose, and punches my face into a pulp on the floor, and breaks my arm. Should I then stumble to the table and insist we have a fair match because I'm not going to sink to their level?

[@rudeboyjohn3483]

"Ok okay, so we've already had the AIDs genocide, but if we had stopped it then where would the progress be?!" I can't with this dude

[@davidbrobinson1995]

"Screaming online doesn't have broad appeal" (or something to that effect) The Great Replacement was popularized by Lauren Southern and was carried into The Republican Party. How does "being online" have no affect?

[@ashleecantu6470]

"Why Can't We Be Friends"- The head banging (against the wall) ballad of the Liberal. 🤯

[@plokky8052]

"We're on the precipice of a genocide" Bruh... Vaush has completely lost the plot. I used to take him seriously because he seemed more level headed than other leftists but now he's just a demagogue.

[@hurensohn7605]

yes close ypur eyes to reality.

[@plokky8052]

@@hurensohn7605 Nah this is doomsday prepper nonsense. The reality is that even Trump failed to undermine US democracy, with institutions proven to be strong enough to withstand a wannabe fashy president. Yes, in a democracy losing elections come with set backs, but that doesn't change the consistent progressive direction the country has been moving towards for decades. The realistic solution is not a civil war but electoralism, and Vaush's current rhetorical approach does nothing but alienate the very people we should be trying to reach.

[@hurensohn7605]

@@plokky8052 hitler also failed the first time. what happened? he became even popular after his prison sentence.u dont know how democracies die and how genocides happen. just because it disnt happen yet doesnt mean it wont happen.

[@vowel8280]

let me guess, you are a destiny fan correct?

[@Bravepotato1]

Why is everyone’s go to “you’re a Destiny fan” if someone pushes back against daddy vaush. It’s so boring. You really think it’s that out of field to think vaush sounds insane in this video and that he has a god-like complex? If you think Vaush sounds reasonable, please interact with a diverse group of real people and revisit this video in a few weeks. There’s no way you will come back thinking vaush made good points

[@TheBasedGreeg]

Come on, this was definitely a main channel worthy debate! Shamelessly post it on both channels 😈

[@PSYCLOWN185]

I have a friend that is more conservative leaning but not full right and he even joined me on the Republicans are fascists train recently. You definitely can get liberals to understand.

[@mattmcconnell1838]

I'm a lib like Beasely. I like Beasely. But Vaush is right. The eliminationist rhetoric of the mainstream right and it's widespread normalization is terrifying.

[@caesarplaysgames]

What eliminationsist rhetoric?

[@Shtoops]

I think this should've been a main channel video. Gotta crush the libs into submission

[@PlanetDeLaTourette]

Centrist types have blamed for having an attitude problem. I have a lot of conflicts with right wing attitudes in daily life. I draw lines in the sand, set boundaries. I'm being disregarded and invaded. I have rules of engagement. We can play it civil. But there is a point of no return. Call it self-defense (non physical conflicts). I will apply force to end on top. And it will be messy for all involved. I'm Buddhistic about it: it is. Sad. I will not compromise once the gloves are off. And inherently to defence the force is overwhelming. I do not mess around. And the centrist will be apologist: The right wing (institution) walked the earth righteously. I say: I nailed them to the cross properly.