NonCompete's Video On Me is WORSE Than I Thought

[@testoftempest]

Timestamps! 0:00 Intro 1:28 EJ’s Video Response Starts 6:48 Sophistry 16:06 The People’s Theory 23:27 Should We Take Non Compete & Luna Oi Seriously? 28:37 Sneaky Debate Tactics 32:54 Dialectics 38:48 Pink Washing & Color Revolution 51:48 FIX YOUR AUDIO 1:01:46 Marxism versus capitalism 1:06:32 MUH WIFE 1:09:54 No 1:11:09 What is dialectical materialism? 1:22:52 Going Back to the Bible 1:32:22 HE DOESN’T KNOW 1:46:06 My Reddit Sucks 1:52:52 NO CLASS 2:01:04 Point For Non Compete 2:10:47 Scientific Marxism 2:16:56 Luna’s Grandfather & Landlords 2:37:07 Wrapping Up

[@S4RGE007]

ty

[@wa-bu3ke]

Vaush kept skipping his arguments and then acting confused surprise surprise....

[@grymkaft]

@@wa-bu3ke Watch President Sunday's take on the same video. He basically has all the same concerns as Vaush. Including the wife angle.

[@wa-bu3ke]

@@grymkaft Everything NonComplete says was correct. Vaush dismisses anything Vietnamese without reading it just because :insert joke:

[@grymkaft]

@@wa-bu3ke So did you watch Sunday's video? Does he also joke around?

[@Korvmannen]

Normalize calling NC ableist for berating an autistic person's supposed inappropriate facial expressions. He stopped laughing.

[@sqwyd]

This and completely unironically

[@Gaawachan]

Not even a joke, this shit is infuriating as a fellow autistic person. I'm so sick of people policing my body and words to an obscenely uncharitable degree.

[@Korvmannen]

@@Gaawachan Yeah, I mean sure if he kept laughing or something it would show a character flaw, but policing like that is frustrating. Luckily for me I usually have a passive/neutral face. People don't know or forget, and I'm not bothered, but the active denial that I see online by people with VDS of someone saying that they have autism (even though there's nothing to speak against it?) really rubs me the wrong way

[@supermutantsam1160]

Yeah, Vaush joked about saying them attacking a “pansexual, neurodivergent person” in his video on ThoughtSlime, but this is unironically JUST ableism. And like I’m comfortable saying Luna’s just homophobic or transphobic based on her “color revolution” shit

[@ratcat9238]

I'm also autistic and I take on enormous stress worrying about how others will perceive my facial expressions. Actually unironically and non-gamer-style triggered by EJ's tactic in that part of the video. And he invoked his disabled-card earlier in the video too. It's disheartening to me how much internalized ableism there is out there.

[@robinvik1]

BROKE: Luna Oi doesn't understand english WOKE: NonCompete doesn't understand english

[@wa-bu3ke]

NonComplete destroyed Vaush. He had to ADD speed past all his arguments and give nonsense responses

[@paintedbird1020]

maaaai wiiiiiife. nice!

[@bethannierose1885]

@@wa-bu3ke which one? i’d like to see

[@pastamondays1712]

@@wa-bu3ke you must’ve rubbed your two brain cells together really hard in order to type this comment out

[@wa-bu3ke]

@@pastamondays1712 more sophistry. Typical Vooshbot

[@Pepsiman1848]

EJ really said, “Vaush says he’s read all theory. That’s wrong because *I* actually have read all theory.”

[@luciferkotsutempchannel]

Would've been a great uno reversal if the theory he shared didn't agree with Vaush.

[@sherlocksmuuug6692]

How selfish of EJ to hoard all of the theory for himself.

[@sypherthe297th2]

The problem is that NonComplete wouldn't be using it ironically. . . He's serious. Dead f-cking serious. Such a clown.

[@burnttoast111]

EJ has even read unwritten theory.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

​@@burnttoast111 Taboritsky Socialism = Free lifetime sarin gas for all citizens until the Monarchy returns.

[@Earzentail]

If Vaush fans are called Vaushites or Vaushists, then Luna Oi fans should be called Lunatics.

[@Korvmannen]

Damn, I'm writing that one down

[@forthelulz5411]

That's a good one

[@scoobydoobers23]

Anyone who identifies themselves by a KZbinr they watch needs more in their life.

[@Earzentail]

@@scoobydoobers23 Vaushites and Vaushists are literally derogatory names originally used by people with VDS that are now used ironically by Vousch viewers. So basically I'm hoping same happens with Lunatics.

[@herec0mestheCh33f]

I like "noncompoops" for EJ's acolytes

[@seththeawesome3366]

Sophistry is when you are Vaush

[@Krawnbundungle]

Vaushistry

[@sasak369]

This is basic theory, Marx said so himself.

[@Cruizinelli12]

Sophistry is when you call out my wife’s BS- EJ

[@supermutantsam1160]

Idealism is when you are Væüßh

[@IgN5P]

Sophistry is when you know your theory?

[@deckie_]

Hearing him defend Nazi ideals and then hearing that he believes mandatory labour and militarised policeforces would be a great political system made me chuckle when seeing that his shirt is, in fact, brown. Literally a brown shirt.

[@gRinchY-op5vr]

Whats funnier is his excuse for leaving the debate early was his refusal to discuss with someone who defends/uses Nazi ideals...I mean we all know that was just an easy out for him as he'd been losing the debate for a while there but come on Noncompete, try to stay consistent

[@mikesdead365]

I wouldn't have figured out his shirt was brown, if you hadn't told me his shirt was brown. Literally.

[@deckie_]

@@mikesdead365 I don't think you know what either a brownshirt or a joke is

[@wehavebiscuits]

I'm on Vaush's side but what's wrong with forced labour? In a situation where the economy is strong and no war it isn't needed, because the conditions will be so good people won't mind doing it. But in periods of strife force labour should definitely be considered an option. Obviously taking into account disabilities etc.

[@mikesdead365]

@@deckie_ No, I do. I think saying the same thing twice in a row is redundant and wrecks what could have been a good joke.

[@Cruizinelli12]

Sophistry is when you tell EJ’s wife that she’s wrong guys… EJ, blink twice if you need help…

[@IMelkor42]

The term he's actually using is "So-fisty". Defined as being when someone criticises Vietnam and his wife beats him up to vent her frustrations over it.

[@solsikkeridderuhyre5172]

@@IMelkor42 Soh-fistry almost sounds like the study of couches, to me.

[@godocs11]

@@solsikkeridderuhyre5172 So-fish-tree: the practice of planting fish to grow fish trees that bear fish fruit. Also known as fish husbandry and Vaush is the only known master fish husband.

[@solsikkeridderuhyre5172]

@@godocs11 I would actually be really curious to see how a Fish Tree functioned. 🤣

[@xuxuang8574]

I kind of feel sorry for him tbh. He's between a rock and a hard place. He needs to defend what he and his wife have been working on for years, and he needs to defend his wife's honour, and he's turning up to a gunfight with a knife. Poor sod. I hope he feels better. He should have just ignored Vaush, but he had to poke the bear. He's going to get rolled.

[@UltaFlame]

As an autistic person I'm so tired of neurotypical people hearing something phrased in a manner atypical to their experience and making a grab bag of assumptions about it. Like, I'm sorry I didn't say it like you expected, but my guy, I'm still speaking plain English, words still mean what they mean. I put in the effort to understand neurotypical idioms

[@sasak369]

Scream this from the rooftops.

[@ultraprincesskenny6790]

I don't believe neurotypicals don't get it in this case; they're just being willfully ignorant

[@projectsixam1579]

Yeah. Vaush really clicks with me (as a fellow aspie) for that reason. He says things in ways I might phrase them myself.

[@tugger]

@@projectsixam1579 same. straightforward and to the point

[@ListlessLion]

It really does come across as policing the way autistic people speak. We shouldn't have to walk on eggshells to keep people from being uncharitable towards us.

[@robertjohnson5794]

After the debate with Noncompete a bunch of leftists started constantly using the word sophist like it was some new word they learned, now I know the origin story.

[@robinvik1]

Sophistry is when you are good at debating. This is why no one in Vietnam ever debate anything.

[@Anthropomorphic]

I think Perspective Philosophy started saying it after their debate.

[@ListlessLion]

Am I missing something, or is this just another way of saying Vaush is a grifter?

[@CynicalBastard]

Dude, Marx was a sophist, I guess...lol,....he was a master at polemics.

[@ericktellez7632]

Let’s be honest though, Vaush’s rebuttal wasn’t that good either he basically said “i am not a sophist, I am just smarter than all of you”, what kind of non answer is that? Also did Vaush just said ad homs are only insults? That is literally incorrect.

[@CameronBaba]

vaush: (responds to something a chatter said) noncompete: *_YET AGAIN VAUSH IS ATTACKING MY WIFE_*

[@tabryis]

mai waif

[@maeschder]

@@tabryis very nice

[@ThisIsANameBruh]

*in bernie voice* I am once again asking you to stop harassing my wife.

[@laurenwalker1048]

MAI WIIIFEE!

[@richardmacdougall7812]

he is a wife guy

[@Kat-yl8pp]

"you're not interested in seeking truth" said the guy who refused to engage in a hypothetical

[@paintedbird1020]

but he has a wife

[@Gloomdrake]

@@paintedbird1020 Vaush needs to get a wife to counter EJ's wife

[@kevinbeck8836]

What's hilarious is that 18 minutes into their debate, he literally says "I'm speaking hypothetically"

[@Kat-yl8pp]

@@Gloomdrake I'm envisioning a pokemon battle type thing; are we on the same wavelength here?

[@Gloomdrake]

@@Kat-yl8pp well we are now

[@Southboundpachyderm]

Yeah I don’t see how this video doesn’t make EJ look really bad. Not only does he come off like a cry bully, he doesn’t understand his own logic.

[@Zomik02]

EJ is straight up incapable of understanding *anything* if the past few videos I've seen of him are anything to go by. All dogma, no thoughts.

[@tylerinmotion4075]

i feel if u put him and rave dubin in a room together, they would understand all the words ever

[@sypherthe297th2]

Because they're essentially pre-suppositionalist apologists. You start from the conclusion and work your way back.

[@supermutantsam1160]

The number of times he defaults to “let’s consult the Ministry of Education’a textbook on the matter” comes off as parody

[@blargh3428]

EJ read the theory but he didn't understand it.

[@solareclipse4241]

if it weren't for American health care people could get therapy

[@jwomackandcheese73]

As someone who works in mental health and is training to become a therapist, you are correct.

[@M.J44]

Imagine if democracy wasnt walking a fucking tightrope because we actualy had free therapy Sad to think about how simple changes could fix so much

[@wohdinhel]

@@M.J44 conservatives are anti-healthcare because they know that if we treated mental illness properly there would be no conservative parties

[@GeoNeilUK]

But he's in Vietnam.

[@EdamL22]

Unfortunately even here in the UK where healthcare is supposedly free, mental health treatment leaves a lot to be desired unless you can afford private therapy.

[@kazamajack1091]

what I learned from NonCompete: Sophistry is when you say words not from theory. Idealism is when hypothetical. Materialism is when thing exists. I am very smart now.

[@mewntay230]

This is such a horrible misrepresentation. The hypothetical & idealism one is understandable because he didn't do a good job explaining what he meant at all but... bro, you need to start watching the original videos with Vaush barking in your ear.

[@kazamajack1091]

@@mewntay230 I saw the whole video, I just had a based daddy whispering in my ear while I watched it. Besides have you heard this Noncompete guy? he said nazi's have a point. kind of sus if you ask me ngl.

[@wiggledixbubsy98]

@@mewntay230 NonCompete made some *understandable* mistakes, but he still acts as his wife's lackey and defended her pedojacketing Vaush, which I consider pretty indefensible and makes it worth misrepresenting him

[@seanphelps4057]

@@kazamajack1091 You're wrong. Luna said that. Jeez, get it right Vaushite.

[@user-dt4sr8yl2r]

@@seanphelps4057 you're defending the person who cant describe why the holocaust was unethical, silly Lunatic

[@Kameth]

"Vaush is so skilled at making stuff up his audience doesn't see it." Tell me you've never paid attention to Vaush or his chat without saying so. The chat loves it when Vaush misspeaks, they jump on that like candy.

[@Neon_Plasma]

These people are used to their yes men fans and not Vaush's viewers who will question and point out when he does something dumb.

[@verager2493]

@@Neon_Plasma Seriously. It's a running joke that his hate and fan reddits are the same

[@thechief043]

May we all meet in the Vowsh trenches to give him shit.

[@claires1063]

@@Neon_Plasma 99% of the time chat is wrong when they try to do that

[@Eagledude131]

Man made a video about getting so mad at chat for doing this, he played Kerbal Space Program about it

[@SuperAsefasef]

Vaush should feel proud that apparently EJ thinks that he can snatch victory and the illusion of truth from the mountains of evidence and theory ej presented in this debate with his amazing debate skills. Pretty big compliment tbh. Like “ahh.. I would’ve won b-but you’re just so smart and quick witted and good at debating that I could never stand a chance”

[@namjoonssexybrain1679]

I-it’s not like I l-like you V-v-v-vaush-sempai.

[@Badbufon]

how to win a debate: put each of your index fingers in your ears, close your eyes and keep shouting : "sophistry!, sophistry!, sophistry!" .... or you can just clip and run.

[@RebelWithoutABoss]

Fascists tend to be good at distorting reality

[@oscwre]

det va det är så jag

[@andreymontag]

@@RebelWithoutABoss that's how we know they aren't fascists. At least not good ones

[@Wissahickon]

I’m so glad Luna explained that we should make assumptions based on reality. My whole life I’ve just completely ignored reality, the material world, evidence, facts, and just imagined my entire reality from the ideal substrate. How could I be so blind? Thank you, Luna, I am now enlightened.

[@jacksmith-vs4ct]

Wait you are a conservative? ;)

[@j-rey-]

This is actually hard for many people to grasp. Not joking. Religion is the big one. They are told what to believe, they don't observe it for themselves

[@diegorincon4673]

The strange opposition to hypotheticals is actually interesting to me. The ability to understand hypotheticals, causal analysis, and comparison is literally Abstract Reasoning. It is most closely connected to fluid intelligence, or the ability to solve unfamiliar problems by using logical reasoning. There is a reason that tankies, nazis, and other fascists and fascistic people hate hypotheticals. They can’t understand them.

[@austinhowley3907]

Did you just assume the rest of your life is going to be better? Planning for the future is idealism 😡 😡

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

@@jacksmith-vs4ct I don’t think so no, why do you ask?

[@andrewlastname5296]

As a married man, it is so f*cking cringe when men feel the need to speak for their wives like this - as if the woman can’t defend themselves. Then again, everything about Luna’s political perspectives are indefensible so maybe she actually can’t.

[@nackskott12]

In Luna's defense, I feel like it's unrealistic to ask someone so profoundly dumb and brainwashed to defend their own viewpoint when there's no way to defend it. We have to understand her weakness of character and give her the space to be as much of a weasel as she needs to be, otherwise I'd genuinely fear she might need to be put on suicide watch.

[@Tacklepig]

Defending your wife is based when you actually admit you're defending your wife. Like... "you insulted my wife, fisticuffs, outside, now". That's based. This shit is just ridiculous.

[@BackwardsPancake]

Right? Like, sure, you have to look out for each-other in a relationship, but that doesn't mean "blindly and uncritically". At some points, "looking out" also extends to giving each-other space, and even calling each-other out when you fuck up. A decent relationship will help the participants keep things stable. A great one will help the participants grow.

[@austinhowley3907]

@@Tacklepig defending your wife by saying it would be wrong for you to defend your wife because that would be speaking over a Female woman POC of color 😤

[@jlp6864]

@@Tacklepig TRuE like if he just had insulted him that would have been based but instead he does this

[@joshh.9139]

"Sophistry is when you don't have a coherent and structured ethical system" *Refuses to engage in hypotheticals to construct an ethical system*

[@solsikkeridderuhyre5172]

He literally doesn't even know what it means, like most people that throw around Sophistry as an insult. That meaning being, the intentional use of fallacious arguments to deceive people. I know you know what it is, but when he said that, I almost broke my neck from the cringe. Sophistry is TOTALLY when I don't understand your ethical framework and then refuse to elaborate on my own to provide an alternative. 🤣🤣

[@Nsuage]

@@solsikkeridderuhyre5172 yeah that sounds intelligent so you must be a idealist hypothetical sophist or something. You probably dont even Ho Chi Min brah.😌

[@RealmRabbit]

It's funny how Vaush kept asking him "Why?" and NonCompete was REALLY struggling... And then you go to NonCompete being like "Me and Luna are basically like Socrates in that we understand wisdom and not just rhetoric, Vaush though is like those sophists." Idk... Just feels like a bit of irony in comparing yourself to Socrates after you just got crushed by the Socratic Method...

[@Syncopiia]

@@RealmRabbit When he said that bit about being like Socrates, I legit couldn't believe what I was hearing. My dude, you ~literally~ just bailed on a debate in the middle of having the socratic method used on you. He's either maximally dumb or maximally disingenuous, no in-between.

[@solsikkeridderuhyre5172]

@@Nsuage Who's Ho Chi Minh? /S 😂

[@FortuitousOwl]

NC willing to forgive Ho Chi Minh for torturing his wife’s family but not Vaush for saying mean things about her. Amazin. They really are both just Nationalists. I figured you were exaggerating to make a point but you aren’t. What’s that meme? I can excuse torture but I draw the line at bullying. Also looking at his comments, he isn’t getting harassed. He’s barely getting comments even disagreeing with him.

[@sherlocksmuuug6692]

Hey, Ho Chi Minh made up for it by making an apology video decades later. So there is still a chance for Vaush to make a comeback from his far more heinous crime of being slightly mean to her once.

[@FortuitousOwl]

@@sherlocksmuuug6692 so there’s still time!

[@luciferkotsutempchannel]

@@sherlocksmuuug6692 To be fair, I'm pretty sure NC came into this debate expecting an apology.

[@chrisking6695]

He's a whiney ass. I wonder if he knows that he's a nationalist and trying to fool his crowed or if he actually knows what he's doing.

[@JakeBrancatellaClips]

Nationalism, at a time when a country needs to come together in order fight colonialism/imperialism, can actually be a really good thing. We should be a bit more specific when we say nationalism is a bad thing. I agree it's a bad thing if you are simply going to defend everything your country does and just become a racist/close minded person.

[@resm-oe9ji]

As a Vietnamese person, I am deeply offended that EJ is not letting his Vietnamese wife speak for herself. Has he considered that his white-knighting is very patronizing towards women of color? Also, as an autistic person myself, I find his disingenuous attacks against Vaush's very reasonable reactions at Luna's story very disgusting. I think he should reconsider his values and not speak out in public again until he has done so.

[@SoWhosGae]

It's probably a language thing. Her English is great but maybe it's still difficult for her when it comes to philosophical terminology.

[@supermutantsam1160]

Remember that one moment where he says that Vaush’s use of r-slur is tantamount to genocide apologism, even though Vaush himself is mentally ill, but then later goes on to make those shitty comments about Vaush’s expressions? Like literally *just* ableism following an accusation that Vaush is ableist for being an autistic person saying the r-slur NonCompete, Luna, and Professor Flowers all collectively engaged in the exact same kind of behavior in their stream following the EJ/Vaush discussion. Flowers legitimately argues that saying that they’re “coping” is an act of toxic masculinity and sexism, to which EJ and Luna agree, only for EJ SECONDS LATER to make a joke about Vaush being molested by Karl Marx. That’s crybullying in a fucking nutshell. In the same video, accusing the person you’re attacking of some grievous offense against you and yours based on some utterly innocuous word or action, then casually engaging in that exact kind of cruelty you accused them of.

[@user-xz4du3es5p]

@@SoWhosGae that would suck come to think of it

[@beo3828]

You missed the chance to write "wife-knighitng", my dude.

[@anselravenhart4753]

69 likes.

[@christopherjustice6411]

When Vaush said "Blink Twice if you're in an abusive relationship" all I could think of was that downed American pilot during the Vietnam War who blinked out "Torture" in morse code when he was put in a North Vietnamese propaganda video about how well the POWs were being treated.

[@lennartduchow7415]

I could be mistaken but wasn't that in WW2 against the japanese?

[@silaskuemmerle2505]

@@lennartduchow7415 you are in fact mistaken, the pilot in question was an A-6 pilot named Jeremiah Denton, and he was shot down over Vietnam in 1965.

[@lennartduchow7415]

@@silaskuemmerle2505 Ight, thank you for the clarification!

[@trianglemoebius]

That's where the 'blink multiple times if you're being held against your will' meme comes from. Not just that specific event, but that's what started what'd later become "blink codes", where soldiers were told to blink in unusual patterns on hostage vids if they were being tortured. This is actually part of a long history of people fucking with the people holding them hostage, to communicate back to base that something is wrong. For example, captured US Navy sailors took advantage of NK soldiers not being exposed to American customs, and convinced their captors that flipping people off was a sign of respect in American culture. They thus got to flip off NK soldiers in their hostage photos, because the soldiers thought the Americans would interpret this as "we respect and love these guys!"

[@EzraFieldsofStrawberry]

It's weird to see EJ drift in and out of civility and then impotent rage.

[@rumncoke76]

It was weird for the first time, but then you get that he's the type of guy who fronts civility and softboy energy, at the same time being a contemptuous and hateful moron, just like Luna and a lot of tankies like her. So many of these types online

[@stoneman472]

@@rumncoke76 He's got the same energy as Thought Slime. And they act like that because they'd never have the guts to act like this to a person's face

[@Xx_Pico_xX]

@@rumncoke76 If you scroll thru NonCompete's content, you will hardly find any contemptuous or hateful content. At least not the type you seem to be implying. I really don't see how someone can see NonCompete come across like that. Just scroll thru their content on their respective channels. It is Vaush who is posting videos with titles that can be deemed as hateful or contemptuous. He has dozens of videos with the same "this person i am talking about is crazy, an idiot, evil, or a combination of all 3" kind of character and energy. Vaush has and is still milking this entire drama with NonCompete. This is like his 4th or 5th video about this petty drama - and he addresses it in a contemptuous manner. How many times has NonCompete done that about this petty drama? Vaush even said he has no problem being mean to people he doesn't like. Saying things like that is highly indicative of a contemptuous, spiteful, and hateful person. As far as I know, NonCompete has never said or suggested something like that. Who is the one coming across as contemptuous and hateful? Just to be clear, I don't think either is. But I do see in Vaush a habit of being petty and being this edgy debate bro, which isn't a good combination.

[@diobrando6910]

Mask on/Mask off

[@rumncoke76]

@@Xx_Pico_xX EJ's or Vaush's content don't factor into this, what I'm saying is that EJ acts civil to Vaush's face, and then pedals misinformation about Vaush being a nazi, and also defends his wife calling Vaush a racist pedofile. And Vaush has only been reacting to this shit, and, at the very least, he's not literally lying about them because he doesn't like them. So yeah

[@zoobiewa]

Vaush roots out two more bad actors who says they speak for leftists. It was really eye opening. The fact these two have sway is really concerning.

[@alexspear2145]

2? I thought we knew Luna was red fash for a WHILE now...

[@rowbot5555]

@@alexspear2145 some people probably thought vaush was being hyperbolic as he sometimes has a tendency to do

[@andrewisaguyname]

Gatekeep the fuck out of tankies.

[@noname-bu1ux]

@@rowbot5555 I still think he's being hyperbolic. I don't understand what makes Luna fash.

[@beo3828]

A shame that "rooting out" turns out to be "the crazy club grows bigger" because they all band together anyway.

[@JakeFace0]

"I'm not poisoning the well" [primes audience for 20 minutes before showing any of the arguments he's responding to]

[@rowbot5555]

Litterally names the video in a way as to poison all wells that could be drunk from

[@JakeFace0]

@@rowbot5555 I don’t think it’s poisoning the well to name your video after the thrust of your argument and be a little click-baitey

[@rowbot5555]

@@JakeFace0 in another case sure but "Vaush is a manipulative liar" is kinda like... Really not gonna leave people new to the topic with a neutral veiw coming in

[@JakeFace0]

@@rowbot5555 Vaush calls his videos similar things all the time

[@rowbot5555]

@@JakeFace0 never said v doesn't engage in a bit of cyanide sprinkling in the resovoir but at least he's upfront with his content being bloodsportsy and doesn't pretend like he's doing a rational or reasonable thing

[@worldmighty5381]

47:45 Watching EJ cite theory to defend Vietnamese nationalism is like listening to an American Conservative justify systemic racism by quoting a speech from MLK. 🤕

[@screamingphoenix8113]

"Unlike torturing my grandparents, laughing a about the torture of my grandparents is unforgivable"

[@Gaawachan]

Felt that burn from several thousand miles away.

[@Tacklepig]

Unironically I get that. Laughing about it is a disrespect you don't get to do if you don't have any connection to it. Whether you condemn or forgive an act of torture by a government is ultimately a political opinion. Laughing about a specific person getting tortured is a shitty thing to do, and ultimately a disrespect to that person / their family. Vaush didn't even do that, obviously, but that position isn't as contradictory as you make it out to be.

[@screamingphoenix8113]

@@Tacklepig I still think its very silly. She literally forgave the man who was directly responsible for her grandparents murder, because he made an empty fake apology. If you can forgive that, you should be able to forgive someone smirking while you say exactly that. Especially after Vaush has explained a dozen times he wasnt laughing at that event. Torture is forgivable with a little apology, laughing about it isn't. Its very silly no matter how you slice it.

[@dylanb265]

Calling someone a sophist for using convincing rhetoric is on the level of Matt Walsh making fun of using big words

[@crocve]

Vaush's ideal wife dialecticaly materialized in this debate.

[@Kropothead]

“What you need to do is dialectically materialize you some bitches.”

[@XIII_Vanitas]

Guys, I'm starting to think this NonCompete person might be married.

[@ProperlyGaming]

Are you serious? I was picking up major Virginia vibes from him

[@CrossfacePanda]

I feel like everything with NonCompete always comes down to not understanding words.

[@brotusclips]

more specifically knowing too many words that he doesn't understand like theory, for instance

[@HumanTooth]

To paraphrase a social media post: "He learned the word "sophistry" and has not shutten the fuck up since"

[@solsikkeridderuhyre5172]

Hence dropping Sophistry in the first five minutes. 🤣

[@siroj4249]

His video on platformism comes to mind. He somehow made "We should have an anarchist organization that has strictly defined ideas and then tries entering and influencing social movements" into "Although we don't agree on everything, we can just unite with MLs on a topic we both agree on. There is nothing bad with accepting authoritarian ideology inside a social movement" (broad strokes only here, go watch the Zoe Baker video on it if you're interested).

[@MK_ULTRA420]

@@siroj4249 ML is authoritarian now? According to who?

[@hardy_har]

OK both ironically and unironically it is ableist to make moral judgements about a neurodivergent person's facial expressions but OK great tell me why Vietnam is good some more

[@supermutantsam1160]

Dude’s gonna condemn Vaush as justifying genocides when he uses “retarded” but goes on to attack an autistic person for their facial expressions. So progressive, much crybully

[@IHaveNoMouth]

???

[@jlp6864]

@@IHaveNoMouth when neuroatypical people show emotions they dont always do it like the majority does, but that doesnt mean theyre insincere or whatever

[@jlp6864]

yup it reminded me of how i cant express certain emotions well and how others judge my reactions wrongly lol

[@Flatscores]

“Maybe he should have considered the material conditions.” Was a killer fucking joke, don’t let anybody say otherwise.

[@coleb2264]

Vaush is making our spaces less safe with those toxic jokes bc I was listening to that video on my morning commute and laughed so hard I had to concentrate on not crashing when he made that joke

[@goliathusregius360]

I used to watch non-compete in high school, then I saw him say that in his ideal society, people who disagreed with the state would be sent to "re-education camps." Noped tf out of there when I saw that

[@MohammedAli-hl4mr]

where?

[@felicityc]

This seems like a claim that needs to be substantiated

[@oxfordcommaisthegreatest]

source?

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

Y’know what? I gotta agree with the non compete fans here, do you have evidence for that?

[@ruefullysage]

the replies to this are funny. literally type "non compete re-education camps" into KZbin or Twitter... you guys are on the internet.

[@purpledragon3075]

You claim Vaush to be a Sophist yet you ran away from the Socratic method, curious.

[@beo3828]

He would need to know what that is to begin with.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

Tbf everyone runs from the socratic method. It infuriates people.

[@beo3828]

@@Jeremy-hx7zj Being able to admit you don't know everything is the first tenant of philosophy. I guess that explains why so many of these people are so bad at it.

[@helios566]

@@Jeremy-hx7zj sure but if you've come into a discussion to teach someone about philosophy you should be prepared for literally the oldest trick in the book.

[@Flatscores]

Oddly enough, Socrates was also accused of being a sophist, if my memory serves.

[@subroy7123]

As a real "Marxist", I proudly remember the day I cancelled Marx for being a white male. It's marked on my calendar that I laminated afterwards.

[@quinnrosenberg3500]

Is it difficult to be so brave?

[@subroy7123]

@@quinnrosenberg3500 somedays, when I have flashbacks... but no, we shall not dwell on such. In the name of BIPOC Biden voter Vaunch, we must keep cancelling.

[@Tacklepig]

I wish people wouldn't refer to themselves as Marxists anymore. Dude is more than a century dead, his writings are largely outdated (though of course they're still valuable of study in the academic sense). Whenever I see someone unironically call themselves a Marxist, I assume they're either a tankie or some cringey person who treats theory like religious dogma.

[@subroy7123]

@@Tacklepig I understand your pain. I hope you take solace from the fact that I am a Marxist.

[@kevinbair8486]

@@subroy7123 This is my favorite response that I've ever seen to anything. Perfection distilled in just two sentences.

[@Dsworddance22]

I don't get why Luna couldn't talk to Vaush herself instead of hiding behind her husband and white knighting for her. I get you wanna defend your wife but bro this "debacle" is between Luna and Vaush

[@CervantesVI]

I think this would be an instance where ESL would be a legitimate excuse. It'd be difficult to have a prolonged discussion about theory in your second language, especially one that would've inevitably ended up being pretty antagonistic. Just sucks for EJ I guess because he comes off as a super embarrassing wife guy out of all of this.

[@temerianlillies]

probably because she was scared. and found it a good idea to send her husband who seems to a be a bit of a more verbose and more well read person than her to do it for her. i like to believe she knew that she wouldn't stand 5 minutes without admitting or conceding that it's weird and a "bit" propaganda-y that vietnam practically lets you take ML classes at the state education level, with, books written by the state, and that terrifies her. she's built a lot of her world-view and her leftist thought *on* the back of this weird propaganda state marxist leninist stuff. to admit that it *is* sketchy, and it *is* propaganda-y is to lose her philosophy and everything that's built her to who she is today.

[@Cruizinelli12]

She still loomed over his shoulder the entire time, which is why EJ kept looking off stream every once in a while. It was clear that the only reason EJ spoke to vaush was so wifey could get some more out of context clips though.

[@Saurawr]

It doesn't matter, because the two of them have identical ideologies, because they worship the same bible written by the Vietnamese government.

[@miketemple876]

She did say Vietnamese kids "dont do debate BS" i guess she doesn't debate because the glorious Vietnamese state didn't teach her how to

[@TheRatSquid]

Vaush's statement of people only reciting theory rather than assessing it struck a chord with me. I remember being an early leftist just getting into theory and coming up with my own interpretations of it and having all of them shot down. People didn't want to engage with it, but treat it as dogma. I also think this was a big issue Lenin himself suffered with as in State and Revolution, Lenin wrote a lot about how his interpretation of Marx was the one true interpretation and everyone else was "revisionist." Kinda maddening.

[@Tacklepig]

I remember having a conversation on a leftist subreddit quite a while back where I was arguing that workers owning the means of production isn't enough to get rid of capitalism, since the worker-owned businesses would still have a profit incentive, which I personally view as more damaging than the exploitation of labor (since profit incentive causes things like exploitation of resources and the environment). The other person deadass responded that that's not true because "the definition of profit is tied to employer-employee relations and without an employer, profit is impossible". I literally tried rephrasing my point 3 times and they fell back on "theory defines this word differently so you're wrong" every time. Don't waste your time reading theory, come up with your own ideas. Apparently reading theory rots your brain or something.

[@BackwardsPancake]

@@Tacklepig I feel like this is just another symptom of human beings in our current society being optimized towards "fastest + least wrong" solutions over complex, fully thought-out and fully realized ones in everything. It's kind of hard to blame someone who's under constant info bombardment for just blindly believing the writings that seem mostly right instead of investing their already stretched resources into consulting alternatives and constantly re-evaluating everything. ...but at the point where they do have time to argue about it on reddit, yeah, maybe this doesn't apply so much. Perhaps they just believe they're doing their part and promoting unity by keeping everything on the same straight-and-narrow - I.e. "Even if it's intellectually dishonest, the gains are worth the sacrifice" sort of thinking.

[@themightymcb7310]

@@Tacklepig it's not that it rots your brain. It's that it gives you an excuse to not critically assess the information and arguments in front of you. Someone else already did in this book right here, see? It directly enables intellectual laziness. The ideas that A. The author could be wrong in some way, and B. You could be wrong about your interpretation of what is written, is never contended with by many of these people. They trust not only that their theory is correct, but that they also understand it perfectly.

[@JamesRoyceDawson]

EJ gets so mad about pedantic disagreements on word definitions but doesn’t explain why it’s bad Voosh gets them “wrong” other than yelling “sophistry”. At least when Voosh has a disagreement about words with Luna, he explains how her definition would lead to bad outcomes if people believe her.

[@jizburg]

Thats the diference between authoritarians and anti authoritarians, Authoritarians think that critizism toward a thoght leader is herresy Anti authoritarians think that critizism is valid and needs to be structured to make a point.

[@Badbufon]

@@jizburg there is a Hakim video ranting about how "anti-leftists" are libs, and at one point he cites Orwell as a moral bankrupt traitor of the left and that if you have sympathy for him you should question your values........ while on the screen there is a quote of Orwell (paraphrasing:) "criticism of russia (or self criticism) is a proof of moral honesty", of course he didn't bring that up. and of course he kept doing soviet crimes apologia. "we had to purge because the cia bad, uwu".

[@jizburg]

@@Badbufon is that the infrared guy? if so then yes that checks out

[@sirleo003]

He also shows that, even if Vaush is wrong with the definition, that it's a common "misconception" given that it's also on Wikipedia. He spends a long time talking about how Vaush is wrong here but ... The worst part is that I do think there are some criticisms to take with Vaush in that original video, but EJ is so bad at this that he cant substantiate any of it.

[@verager2493]

Ironically, he's using sophistry against vaush

[@themightymcb7310]

A really important point that I think Vaush missed here is that every single time NonCompete says something along the lines of "let's see what Marx and Engels had to say", he cites the same Vietnamese textbook instead of citing Marx and Engels. Also, it's worth noting that historical materialism as a concept actually came first and existed before Marx and Engels. Historical materialism was first conceived by enlightenment era philosophers like Montesquieu, Condorcet, and Turgot, as a counter to the whole "great man" theory of historical analysis. It was later built upon by early socialists like Henri de Saint-Simon, who actually had died two years before the publishing of the Communist Manifesto. Dialectical materialism, on the other hand, was first coined by Joseph Dietzgen in 1887, exactly 40 years *AFTER* the Manifesto was published. Dietzgen was a friend and confidant of Marx, so I think it's fair to assume that Marx would agree with Dietzgen's conception of dialectical materialism, but it's still incredibly untrue to claim that dialectical materialism came first and that Marx and Engels came up with it. Just goes to show that people like EJ can straight up tell bald-faced lies as long as the lies are obscure enough to go completely unchallenged by the broader left.

[@kestral63]

Luna:"2+2 is apple dishwasher God King Vietnam, crush gay protests because color revolution" Vaush:"No, 2+2 is 4" NonCompete:"Oh my god Vaush you don't know anything you've never read Luna's Vietnamese math textbooks you have no right to say 2+2 is 4 this is idealist sophistry your opinion is bad faith"

[@aaronmarks9366]

😂😂😂

[@ladyvanda]

EJ: I hesitated to make this video because I don’t like cults of personality… I learned this from the Divine Superior Ho Chi Minh (God Bless His Soul and May His Relatives Whip Us All For Our Sins).

[@Kazoo_man64]

If Vaush cries and apologizes to the country, VDS will be no more.

[@diegorincon4673]

Fun fact: the ability to understand hypotheticals and engage with them is called “abstract thinking”.

[@premiersportingkc3443]

As someone who's wife grew up in China, their education system has the same propaganda about Mao. It's taken her over a decade to deprogram herself from that mentality, but every now and then it just pops in out of nowhere. It really is like a NPC dialogue tree when it happens too. An example: We were talking about WWII for some reason, and she started parroting CCP propaganda about how China actually won the war, and the only reason America was able to get close to Japan was because of China's victories in the field. She also talked about how it was the CCP, not the Nationalists, who did the majority of the fighting. When I explained to her why this was VERY historically inaccurate, her brain short circuited and she went into dialogue tree of propaganda. She eventually came to the right historical analysis, but it took an hour of pulling up source after source to prover her wrong. I see the same thing happening when Luna speaks. Like, it really is just parroting propaganda they were taught in schools. It'd be like me as an American repeating all the propaganda about the Founding Fathers, but on steroids

[@amyglynn6827]

props to your wife for trying to unlearn that stuff. I have some family from Russia and trying to talk to them about *anything* to do with history is like pulling teeth. but they are actually trying to understand, it’s just difficult as it would be for anyone to realise so much of what you “knew” to be true actually isn’t.

[@kevinbeck8836]

Would you say it's like Christopher Columbus?

[@renarddubois940]

I mean aren't you repeating what you've learned too?

[@fruitygarlic3601]

@@renarddubois940 Learned how? You should repeat what you learn if it comes from questioning of sources, rational scrutiny, and evidence. I don't think you become a leftist if you unquestioningly accept US school propaganda. It's still important to point out that, compared to other world powers, America isn't the worst about this stuff.

[@jellewijckmans4836]

@@fruitygarlic3601 it's also very important to note that US and western propaganda in general is very much vague, wide and has plenty of people publicly disagreeing with it. While we definitely have wrong ideas that go under challenged in public discourse but the idea that our schooling systems and society at large are consistently and aggressively re-enforcing this singular world view isn't true. Most of our worst propaganda is spread in churches and homes not public institutions.

[@pogo8050]

Why the f does Non Compete call Luna, his literal wife his “comrade”? It’s so incredibly weird

[@rainbowkrampus]

It's a part of his sex cult. All of his sexual subservients are his "comrades".

[@solsikkeridderuhyre5172]

LARPing. That's literally it.

[@evcarr3008]

Nah, I'm down with that. I have more of an issue with the language of "my wife" with its connotations of ownership. It's not a hill I'd die on but in a relationship I'd rather be considered a comrade than a wife.

[@andrewcowan6688]

@@evcarr3008 that actually kinda makes sense 🤔

[@prettyokandy230]

comrade first, wife second.

[@NeoRipshaft]

This is one of the most bizarre and hilarious vid reacts ever - I initially found the comments about Emerican's ostensive compulsion to please his wife as in bad taste and well beyond the line of what I'd consider merited mockery for Emerican but Vaush really leaned into this one and it became and increasingly funny and effective comedic lens and critique. 2 Hours in I was chuckling like an idiot and yelling 'HIGH FIVE' at my screen in a Borat voice at 4:00am. Would watch again 9.5/10.

[@stoneman472]

I lost it at "Vietnam gets gamer apology! Germany gets Hitler dead in bunker!! VERY NICE!!!". Fucking gold 🤣

[@Badbufon]

i don't like those kind of remarks either but at one point you get fed up with these people, LunaOI is the mathriarch of all tankies, and as it has been proven, tankies are red right wingers, we don't need them poisoning the well anymore.

[@deckie_]

@@Badbufon EJ is literally wearing a brown shirt in his rebuttal. I think his subconscious knows.

[@eaglefly35]

.

[@MrNeumie]

By accusing vaush of saying nazis had a point, EJ basically implied that the nazis would have been justified if it was true about the jews and banking. EJ literally admitted he's a nazi

[@EternalDensity]

Yeah that was the strat and EJ is walking right into it.

[@basil7292]

it is something that can never be justified, any reasonable person would say

[@fruitygarlic3601]

A nazi? No. Weirdly susceptible to their rhetoric because he can't form a consistent world view? Dangerously so.

[@SawChaser]

That's illogical. The thing about the Nazis was that they lied about the jews. You can't be telling the truth and also be a Nazi.

[@thesaltybeard1793]

@@SawChaser even if the Nazis had told thr truth about any aspect of their caricature of Jewish people they'd be wrong for what they did. Like, there's no justification for genocide. Period.

[@alearnedman]

It's kind of telling that he starts his his video by basically saying, "I know there's people watching who like Vaush, and people watching who hate Vaush, and probably all of you think this is pointless for me to talk about, but I swear I can explain why I'm not wasting everyone's time"

[@Gloomdrake]

Followed by 90 minutes of gibberish

[@LegendLeaguer]

"For you see: my wife..."

[@supermutantsam1160]

Vaush literally reeling back upon hearing Luna’s mic quality is so fucking funny, holy shit

[@M.J44]

Barely even began to watch this but am leaving a like anyway because NonCompete is a liar and dishonest while VoOsH was not during the debate. Much love Vorsh, the Vershiest Vwash.

[@vivvygipe9605]

what kills me about NC explaining the deep history of luna's grandparents is that vaush would not be able to know any of that because luna didn't explain any of that in her own video wtf

[@ladyvanda]

Has anyone translated EJ’s blinks in Morse? Around 1:32:02, I deciphered “help, I am being held captive and tortured by the Vietnamese government”. But my Morse is a bit rusty.

[@avidsatanist]

vaush dunking on victims of kidnapping arc

[@foxgloved8922]

Damn vaush skipped my fav part: the bit where EJ quoted Malatesta to support the idea that anarchists should support MLs or something. I went and looked up the quote to get Context TM. Interestingly, in the next paragraph, he follows up his left unity statements by saying he has little faith in the Bolsheviks achieving liberation, but he hoped that they wouldn’t brutally execute people or keep political prisoners. He also says that while it is important that we work with those with whom we share similar goals, we (anarchists) should always insure we have equal/proportional voice and influence in those alliances, and learn from betrayals if they occur. But anyways guys, Malatesta said left unity is good and left unity is when you agree with mah wife Edit: the Malatesta piece is called Anarchists and the Limits of Political Coexistence (1926). It’s available free online and it’s pretty short. Worth a read if you’ve got 10 min.

[@markbaker4425]

All of malatesta is online and worth reading tbh. All of his books are under 300 pages

[@Tacklepig]

So, uh, considering the time this text is from, is it safe to assume this person died in a gulag? I don't know anything about them other than what you just wrote, but that tended to be the typical fate of anarchists in soviet russia.

[@foxgloved8922]

@@Tacklepig he was 76 at the time of the quote and he died two years later of pneumonia. He never worked with or was in physical proximity to the Bolsheviks (he lived in Italy most of his life). He was imprisoned and persecuted by the Italian government though.

[@alexalexandrov9684]

Literally quoting from a piece with the words limits of coexistence in the title. Obviously anarchist should fight to be equally represented

[@danielsandwhichpants1391]

Tysm for this sourcing

[@egg9033]

Wait...if Luna claims ESL as a defense to professor flower tier arguments, would she be ok with Germans openly praising the Wehrmacht as a dogwhistle since English ain't their first language?

[@herec0mestheCh33f]

No you see they use a white language so they're all perfectly fluent unlike poor little her. Or something. Is it racist if she's infantilizing herself?

[@Tacklepig]

German here, I have bad news for you. Germany and the German military do openly praise and honor the Wehrmacht, and there's tons of military monuments for them. The logic behind this is that, while the nazi ideology obviously is despicable, the Wehrmacht was first of all a military fighting for our country and their soldiers should be honored like any other soldiers. I personally find it disgusting, but that's what German culture is.

[@egg9033]

@@Tacklepig thank you, this makes it much clearer.

[@littlegravitas9898]

How does one "practically", without hypotheticals, create a moral or ethical framework? Or legal system? Do you just like...do things to test it, work out post-hoc if that was bad or not? It's...fucking insane.

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

You just look at the material conditions really hard because as any philosophically literate person knows, what ought to be can be directly derived from what is.

[@Tacklepig]

You jest, but isn't that literally what NC suggested during the debate?

[@Ninetale3z]

You know what. NC is right. Let's just ground test the purge. We don't know if it is a bad idea till we put it to the test right? /s

[@LimeyLassen]

I'm trying to imagine applying NC's Dialectical Materialism to the use of nuclear weapons. Like "Should we turn the desert to glass? Do an analysis. The material conditions will dictate what is right and wrong."

[@Jnihil00]

@@Tacklepig "My morals come directly from dialectical material-" He stopped there, I would assume he understood the claim he was making was so absurd as to be disregarded. But then again, I'm not defending MAI WAIF. And I love moral philosophy.

[@ImaginaryMdA]

It takes such a long time for Luna's husband to start showing actual footage. Talk about well poisoning!

[@brockcarson]

It was really hard to take actually.

[@RegsaGC]

NonCompete was among the first creators of Breadtube I started watching after hbomberguy and contrapoints. I am so proud of myself for identifying his class reductionist takes, before I even learned of that term. I thought of it as "the capitalism game" where you take any issue, and then abstract it until you can blame it on capitalism.

[@mackenziegoodwin459]

True. I mean *yes* absolutely, capitalism IS to blame for many of our societal ills! However, this is only a surface-level analysis that ignores where our capitalist system originates, how it is maintained through various oppressive mechanisms and interests. Reality is so much more complex, interesting, and helpful than just a simple reductionist take!

[@RegsaGC]

@Angus Chandler No, but NonCompete has straight up been close to saying that if capitalism ends, do does racism. This is silly and also class reductionist which is what I'm talking about. Reducing the poc struggle down to a class struggle. It's not good.

[@jennanyx4968]

"You don't know what she was taught or what textbooks say"... wasn't the point of that video to LITERALLY explain what she was taught? SHE BOUGHT HER OLD TEXTBOOKS!!!?!?!?!?!

[@pepeef]

Episode three is gonna have some wild plot twists, thats why you can't comment on the first one yet

[@LegendLeaguer]

@@pepeef can't*?

[@pepeef]

@@LegendLeaguer yeah

[@entertain7us148]

I think I've figured out where the confusion over dialectical materialism is coming from now - Vaush is simply using the more commonly understood version of the theory while EJ is adhering to the official Stalinist version of the theory. "In the early years of the 20th century, historical materialism was often treated by socialist writers as interchangeable with dialectical materialism, a formulation never used by Marx or Engels. _According to many Marxists influenced by Soviet Marxism, historical materialism is a specifically sociological method, while dialectical materialism refers to the more general, abstract philosophy underlying Marx and Engels' body of work. This view is based on Joseph Stalin's pamphlet Dialectical and Historical Materialism, as well as textbooks issued by the Institute of Marxism-Leninism of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union._

[@LegendLeaguer]

It always comes back to deferring to authority and, at minimum, agreeing with Stalin with them, doesn't it?

[@Revan058]

Oha, good find. Yeah that...explains a bit. Fucking tankies.

[@xuxuang8574]

It still doesn't explain why he thinks analysis can replace ethics. It's because he actually doesn't, he's just saying that to conceal the truth: he has replaced ethics with ML dogma.

[@ashkebora7262]

@Rohan Orton If he would've even showed up with as much as OP up there, he'd have at least cleared it up instead of sounded like a numpty. A quick googling will explain what Vaush is talking about with the normal meanings of dielectical materialism.

[@ciamciaramcia99]

This "vietnam school's teaching marxism" always felt weird to me. I'm from former warsaw pact country and here teachings of Marx & Engels were barely taught even in universities since the rulling party knew that reading Marx is the shortest path to becoming a political dissident, since the "real socialism" looks nothing like what he desribed.

[@Tacklepig]

Yeah, leftists are typically persecuted in tankie-type dictatorships.

[@NotYurAverageJoe]

NonComp always sounds like he just found out about the words he’s using.

[@meta1storm]

Exactly my thought! He sounds like this typical guy you meet at a party with whom you have a conversation at 2 pm and he sounds smart for 30 seconds because of his use of big words but then you notice there are huge gaps in his knowledge and understanding of basic concepts.

[@LimeyLassen]

@@meta1storm Dialectical Materialism is when you mansplain 😂

[@nickfinan6031]

30 minutes in and EJ hasn’t made a single counter argument

[@Korvmannen]

He can't articulate good ones, so he tries priming the viewer instead

[@avidsatanist]

@@Korvmannen EJ complaining about Sophistry and Speaking without proper substance while completely gaslighting viewers 99% of the time without responding to anything Vaush is saying in a proper manner, and running himself in circles trying to do so

[@krawieck]

45:00 in communist Poland there was a subculture that meant to mimic the way Americans dressed in an idealized way, and generally idealised United States, they were called stilyagi (in polish: “bikiniarze”). The point is: it’s very normal in an authoritarian country for people to idealize democratic countries, especially the ones that export their culture abroad (the US)

[@alejandrorivas4585]

Its not limited to soviet and western either. In france there was the Japonique movement, in japan they voraciously emulate italian aesthetics, even america for a long time aped upper crust english culture.

[@LimeyLassen]

WEEEBS

[@hollywoo1054]

It fathoms me how EJ is incapable of understanding the difference between idealism and dialectics, let alone dialectical materialism.

[@Wimikk]

There was a point in the debate where he just described Rationalism and called it m idealism. I’ve never been great with my philosophy terms, but it was described *verbatim*.

[@markbaker4425]

The idea that human conciousness and thought doesnt have a role to play in dialectics is dumb as fuck and proves he doesnt know wtf hes talking about lol. Material is primary but ideas affect material conditions, its an interplay. A dialectic if you will.

[@chibiraptor]

@@markbaker4425 yes, in terms of ideological shifts in society. Dialectical materialism has literally nothing to do with debate and ethics.

[@DevinMacGregor]

@@markbaker4425 That is what I was laughing at. I did not watch the video Vaush is critiquing here but was reaching the comment section of it and it is apparent they are butthurt and looking for sympathy by all the hearts they dished out in the comment section. But I posted the link of Ask Prof Wolff on dialectic materialism for NC. Idealism is that ideas come first and we largely get this from a religious viewpoint of first there was the word etc. Yahweh came first etc. Materialism is that matter came first as ideas are based off the material conditions. In dialectic materialism it is that matter is primary but that there is a two way dialog going on, Ideas, constructs, etc are based off of material conditions but that it is a reverse as well as ideas can shape material conditions. A rich person and a poor person can have a different perspective of the same thing due to the material conditions each is in and both come up with completely different ideas.

[@qualivia]

It's kinda weird that Vaush is more Critical of Ho Chi Min's actions than Luna and EJ are when he indirectly tortured her Grandparents.

[@DankAudioStash24]

According to Wikipedia, NC is right that technically Vaush made an "ad hominem" argument when he dismissed Luna's State sources, however, it also says that such arguments are only fallacious in matters of formal logic where we can totally divorce the arguments from the people making them. So Vaush is still correct that it's not necessarily a logical fallacy to question the origin of the information.

[@waffleworshiper]

Yo you’re citing Wikipedia? Cringe bro /s

[@Discojericho]

@@waffleworshiper Its a basic definition of a logical fallacy, you don't need to resurrect Plato just so you could get a source for that, Wikipedia is fine.

[@Discojericho]

@@cameronscott9399 My bad lol

[@Noromdiputs]

Seemed to be more of a possible genetic falacy. Ad homs are a related falacy though. Might even be the same one? I need to go look this up later.

[@Tacklepig]

That's not correct though. The dismissal of the source in this case is not an ad hominem. These sources being state propaganda means they implicitly serve a specific agenda and have a narrative in favor of that propaganda. Even if that's not said, that's what's MEANT by that dismissal, and that's not an ad hominem. It's also not a dismissal of the argument (since Vaush further engages with it), but simply him adressing that the source for it is questionable. Which is not only not fallacious, but something one should definitely do whenever applicable.

[@stanleythedoggy]

I can't help but laugh every time Vaush says "MAI WAIF". It's so dumb but I love it.

[@Kazoo_man64]

Its the power and force with which he says it. A proper “MAI WAIF” should come from a deep place and leave your lungs devoid of air.

[@stanleythedoggy]

@@Kazoo_man64 Yeah. For me it's also how matter-of-fact he says it sometimes, as if that's just how you say those words now. There's flow.

[@hardy_har]

He keeps talking about "the texts" and "the theory" as separate from "ideas thought up in your own head". WHERE DOES HE THINK THE TEXTS CAME FROM? DID THEY SPRING FULLY FORMED FROM KARL MARX'S FOREHEAD?

[@Yurothehotot]

I mean that's the problem with the sorts of people who think that Theory is dogma handed down from the prophet Marx and his disciples to help bring us into the everlasting paradise of communism. It's attitudes like this that kept me away from socialisim for the longest time because a concerning amount of it's proponents treat it like a new kind of religion.

[@aliadnannasim8477]

Yes

[@wrazzberrie1197]

People like noncompete don't do any synthesis, nor do they critically question the texts. They read, they write down notes, they memorize. Like it's a highschool test. The fact that they're literally using textbooks makes it incredibly funny.

[@Gloomdrake]

@@wrazzberrie1197 in NC's case he's just parroting everything his wife taught him to say

[@jessiemiller880]

As Zeus gave birth to Athena, so did Karl Marx, born in the year of 1818, conjure dialectical materalism and the holy truths therein.

[@6868Phoenix]

"VOWSH has no idea what Luna is talking about because it's ONLY in Vietnamese." Hmm. I didn't know Marx and Engels were Vietnamese and were unable to have their literature translated in a million different languages.

[@JonathanMandrake]

Yeah, since NC and Luna don't speak German (or at least I think so) they have no idea what they're talking about, which now that I think about it...😂

[@nullskey8370]

"he assumed this nazi book would be bad bc it's a nazi book!! he didnt even read it!!" like come on

[@UmQasaann]

Liberals are not leftists but closeted fascists.

[@thefarmer6541]

​@@UmQasaannyou support fascist

[@davidv4018]

They cry about sophistry, yet all they do is appeal to authority.

[@queueue_]

Why does it matter that you haven't read the Vietnamese textbook specifically? He does realize that people write about these ideologies in English too, right? Why is he treating that specific book like it's a bible?

[@jasonsimmons4319]

LUNA'S BOOK

[@Khalkara]

Cuz nobody can easily fact check him cuz most people don't have access to it or can read Vietnamese.

[@wutthe8284]

i visited the gofundme, they claim it's a textbook that has never been translated to english. I think the assumption is it will have flavors added from various vietnamese philosophers/politicians. But we also already have other text from those people, so it's not entirely foreign. it might be interesting from a historical standpoint in seeing what was taught, but I'm not entirely sure if the state textbook is a good source of theory. idk why, but they reminds me of Joseph Smith finding the mormon bible.

[@Revan058]

@@Khalkara And now give how much of a lying shitwesle those two are, their translation efforts are also highly suspect. How the fuck can we trust they don't 'fix up' a few things they don't like? Particularly after Luna's copedown over Vietnam's love of free market capitalism where she just glitched out and tried to claim the data didn't say what it says nakedly.

[@xuxuang8574]

Sunk cost fallacy.

[@unclescipio3136]

NonCompete's take has more projection than IMAX.

[@LaigledeMeaux]

You know, I was one of the guys who thought you were getting hung up on semantics when discussing the "there are no classes, so all classes are equal" line. To me originally, it just felt like a misspoken phrase, something like, "Since all classes are equal, classes disappear." But with your explanation at 1:53:00 adding in the secondary example of races, it really brought up a good point and shows that you are not being nitpicky. This is why I really like these after action videos. I even think they may be more helpful than the initial video, at least to me.

[@Mainimi]

Tbh if someone calls you a sophist and can't explain why or argue against you, that's a W Had that happen to me in college, no one took that guy seriously, it was a right winger though

[@13enwarner]

I think what Vaush doesn't understand is that if you cite a text of theory, since that quote is written down on paper somewhere, it makes that theory dialectically materialist.

[@JonathanMandrake]

Yeah, and Vaush also doesn't understand that only documents published in communist countries will show the true definitions of words, so he has no basis of ever criticising them for misusing definitions

[@cnvrgnt]

‘MAI WAIIIIFFFFF’ - Non Compete during this entire fucking situation

[@tylerhackner9731]

Cringe. Luna should’ve talked to Vaush directly instead of hiding behind her husband

[@Cruizinelli12]

That was really pathetic. Funny though, because in their post debate cope stream, Luna called vaush every name under the sun, yet she was too cowardly to say any of that to his face, and hid behind hubby.

[@jdprettynails]

The entire video was Vaush: *reacts to thing Luna said* EJ: What MY WIFE means.... Like, I'm willing to give ESL some credence here, but it can't excuse everything. It's the go-to excuse for things she says in debates, her essays, her tweets....is the introduction for the textbook she's translating just going to say "Sorry for poor translation! ESL lol!"

[@sherlocksmuuug6692]

Human shield activate!

[@Discojericho]

@@Cruizinelli12 To be fair Vaush would be sitting on his chair in his house on the other side of the planet and they would both be insulting the camera. I never got where the perceived courage of this types of scenarios comes from. I mean in this particular situation I can see it kinda, getting into an insulting match when her English is not great with someone who is essentially a pro insulter at this point would take some guts I guess.

[@zillafire101]

MAI WAIFE!!!

[@MrDaAsif]

Say what you will about NonCompete, you have to admit that being known as "Luna Oi's husband" is a W for gender equality re: him calling everything idealism, I bet what happened was Luna Oi was complaining about Vaush being an idealist, so he just said it as a reflex

[@elijahgavin6706]

Luna refuses to fuck him every time Vaush puts her in a bad mood so NC makes hour long rebuttals in hopes of reopening her walls

[@zacharycompton5624]

I'm waiting for the translation to come out so that academics can waste their time criticizing the Vietnamese educational material.

[@papitomichael3317]

“Waste their time criticizing the Vietnamese educational material” ?? Lol interesting

[@ericktellez7632]

All state educational material is full of propaganda, the US to me stands just next to Vietnams propaganda as well. It’s crazy how much BS governments get away with when teaching history

[@wutthe8284]

im more interested in her releasing the source material. Because to be frank, I'm not sure if they can translate it well to begin with, there are plenty of people who can read and speak vietnamese.

[@Gloomdrake]

@@ericktellez7632 I wish tankies would pick up in that. It's really weird how they figured out that the US lies to push an agenda, but somehow they don't realize that other governments also lie

[@entertain7us148]

i adore how off the rail NC went around 1:22:00. Vaush: "Marx and Hegel were both modernists." NonCompete: "Wow you have no idea what you're talking about. They both used dialectics."

[@markbaker4425]

Reading hegel is weird cause the guy was at once really progressive and conservative at the same time. Supported the hatian revolution. Supported constitutional monarchy. Believed the church and the bible where bullshit but was a devout christian. Said some kinda nationalist stuff but was so scared of german nationalism he was happy when napolean burned his house down.

[@MakooWallinen]

When it comes to the EJ debate I would actually look at The serfs video on it because he brought in a philosophy professor just to get his view. And he was like 90% on Vaush side, but he also said that he is not a Vaush defender since the only time he talked to Vaush was to disagree with him.

[@MDoorpsy]

Heck, he even corrected Lance a bit about the banker thing, in that he actually understood what 'disproportionate' means when Lance was trying to say Vaush was spreading a conspiracy theory that had been debunked.

[@elsanto2401]

he also rated the whole debate as a 3/10. nobody looked good coming out of this

[@rainbowkrampus]

@@elsanto2401 Ehh, maybe to an outsider. As someone who has seen the softboi left/tankie arc play out from the beginning, it's been kinda vindicating to see so many people finally criticizing NonCompete etc. in a more strident way. If people want to get uptight about Vaush deciding to not put up with these cry bullies anymore by out doing them at their own game, that's their problem. The way to deal with a bully is by punching them square in the nose until they stop. Taking the moral high ground just leaves you tattered and miserable.

[@wrazzberrie1197]

@@rainbowkrampus I never understood why people associate letting yourself be abused with the moral high ground. All it generally does is embolden the bully, and let's doesn't do anything to stop them from harassing others. IMO fighting back (literal or figuratively) was the moral high ground. Also there's a point where you need to choose between optics and principal, and i do believe people like noncompete and luna are dangerous to the left.

[@elmonchis2]

@@wrazzberrie1197 Christian thought.

[@OutdatedBeverage]

“In this video I am going to demonstrate that Vaush relies upon an ignorance of history and a lack of substance in his arguments to win debates, with his conclusion already made before any of his arguments” *Proceeds to repeat the word Sophistry 1400 times in a 2 hour video without giving any examples*

[@rei3707]

What's hilarious is there's people in the comments of his video thanking him for explaining what sophistry is and revealing the truth about Vaush. I'm so done with the internet.

[@DevinMacGregor]

@@rei3707 I was laughing at that. Look at all hearts given out to comments. It is so apparent they are butthurt and looking for sympathy. The thing is as well is they want to be experts in this subject. They want to be a larger channel and I am assuming they are not doing this for simple love but this may be a source of income for them. They cannot afford to have any level of criticism placed on their channels since this may hinder their growth.

[@mewntay230]

You people really struggle with over-simplifying things or completely not comprehending the point which is convenient in disregarding what was said.

[@ashkebora7262]

@@mewntay230 You're right. Explaining why NC is an incorrect goon takes more than a paragraph. Thank you for adding minutes of astute observations and comments to this topic. We are enlightened by your presence.

[@danielsandwhichpants1391]

@@mewntay230 explain what you’re saying instead of being vague

[@hashtagspooky]

Watching this at 2x speed makes the sped up clips go into overdrive. This is like a new subgenre of nightcore.

[@user-zi4wx3uw1y]

Hell yeah it rocks

[@LimeyLassen]

I don't know if I'm on 3 or 4 layers but it's a vibe either way

[@Ben10man2]

Yes

[@joeyjose727]

Which stolen anime background pic would be appropriate for this nightcore video?

[@mr.irrelevent8956]

“There should be no class” Vaush anti school confirmed.

[@queenmari82]

Ho chi mihn was like “ah shit guys I think we executed too many landlords!!”

[@-ed-ge-]

the most annoying thing about this guy's video is how he pronounces sophistry. you can tell google to say it out for you ffs

[@themandokero1410]

I came down here just to say that lol

[@gking407]

recently my mind was darkened but now it’s been enlightened and I’m enjoying the non-optics of this arc

[@LegendLeaguer]

I usually darken my mind before going to bed. Sometimes when I wake up, too.

[@sangreiti]

Watching this without knowing what dialectical materialism is is just a blast. 🤣🤣🤣

[@QuartzIsAnOxide]

Doesn't Vaush know having an ethical system equals idealism and sophistry? I thought he read all theory, smh.

[@jaymorgan8013]

Can't believe his wife forced him to humiliate himself like this. 😞

[@Qjciak]

43:30 im sorry, Luna, if you are like, not very good with languages or just plain stupid its fine to admit that, but writing signs in your second language isnt that hard. If i were to write a book in english i would propably struggle a lot, but using common language on a sign and not making grammatical errors too often is not that hard. I went to leftist prostests in poland, i helped making signs and you wouldnt believe it but people who would like to write a sign in english propably just use phrases they heard or they find funny and ARE ALREADY VERY COMFORTABLE WITH ENGLISH, THATS WHY THEY WRITE IT IN ENGLISH WITHOUT CONSIDERING THAT A LOT OF THEIR COUNTRYMEN MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND THE SIGN and for american flags: liberals like looking up to usa, usa is just this perfect model to them, and when i say liberals i dont even mean like hardcore neoliberal austerity good etc types, i mean just like, normies who have non-conservative ideas but barely care enough about politics to show up to a protest every once in a decade

[@cameronscott9399]

i also imagine if youre looking for international sympathisers for any form of aid or even just to apply pressure to your countries gov then english is a p good shout

[@cryoboy]

Vaush commenting over NC commenting over Vaush commenting over Luna, all at various playback speeds and audio qualities ... sorry, but as a non native english speaker I have to pass on this one.

[@jdprettynails]

Yeah, as a native English speaker.....I'm struggling honestly.

[@DaveTheVader]

As a non-native english speaker who watched all of this: Try it. Might be a good exercise for listening comprehension.

[@entertain7us148]

Sophistry is when you respond to chat

[@LimeyLassen]

Yes

[@user-yr8ge3fz8o]

Throughout all of this drama EJ and Luna's arguments have followed transparent pattern: they introduce a term (sophist/idealist/materialist etc.) signify that it is either a good or a bad thing, and then give it such a loose and shallow definition that they can apply it as a label to anyone they want to defend or criticize. And y'know what? I don't doubt that this is an accurate representation of this "marxist-leninist curriculum." This the same way any ideology of control works. EJ talks about Vaush using ideas the same way christians talk about people committing sins, like having made a hypothetical denies him access to the glory of dialectical materialism. For the record, by the way, Hegelian Idealism is the descriptive claim that history progresses forward when conflicting ideas have been synthesized. Marx's adjustment to this was to say that rather than ideas, history progresses when classes resolve their innate conflicts.

[@Kickiusz]

I just realised something. Luna says that protest signs written in perfect English look sus in Vietnam, the implication being that no Vietnamese person would know English well enough. But she is explaining that in perfect English. Her point is completely nullified by her own existence. Normally, that's a level of cognitive dissonance achievable only to someone who has been fed nothing but state propaganda their entire- hey, wait a minute!

[@alrecks619]

i'm surprised he didn't change his name to Veeyeetnam Johnson yet.

[@Onl1neDr3ams]

He really said “deceived” as if he’s exposing vaush after years rather than basically calling people who consume these videos too stupid to understand truth from projection

[@jeremyg7261]

This is why I’m an absurdist.