DEBUNKING Dr. Mike’s MUSCLE GROWTH Principles?

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In this video Dr. Milo Wolf reacts to Dr Mike Israetel's (of ‪@RenaissancePeriodization‬) video titled "If You're Not Building Muscle, This Is Why.", in which Dr Mike goes through his 10 principles of muscle growth. Will their opinions line up? Or will drama ensue?
References:
1. bjsm.bmj.com/content/52/6/376...
2. assets.researchsquare.com/fil...
3. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
4. journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fu...
5. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35291...
6. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38684...
7. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30558...
8. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32602...
9. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12453...
10. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
11. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21771...
12. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23053...
13. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35438...
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"DEBUNKING Dr. Mike’s MUSCLE GROWTH Principles?”
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[@warrenhenning8064]

Dr. Mike been real quiet since this dropped an hour ago

[@schulme123]

Why would he respond? Milo agreed with everything.

[@warrenhenning8064]

@@schulme123 Of course he's going to largely agree. That is why my comment is also a joke

[@schulme123]

@@warrenhenning8064 Apologies!

[@Jamiey-]

@@schulme123 responding to a reaction videos response?! its only a matter of time

[@schulme123]

@@Jamiey- And here you are responding to my comment responding to the original poster reacting to the video. Now I responded. This could go off the rails!

[@gavinvandraven]

I want to see Dr. Mike debunk Milo debunking Dr. Mike, and Milo debunking Dr. Mike debunking Milo debunking Dr. Mike in an endless loop of sexual tension.

[@DominicSJarrett]

That would be great masturbation material.

[@stevel.251]

lolll

[@danielkanewske8473]

I hope these hostilities don't translate to the bedroom!

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

Ah, y'know, sometimes working out a little anger isn't exactly unpleasant for your s.o.

[@irakorez85]

They will be resolved there

[@Raey_Thoven]

I'm in my early 20s. After 6 weeks of consistent training, I can tell I need a de-load I feel more tired throughout the day, my joints feel super messed up, I'm prone to getting sick and my performance in the gym takes a hit. Personally, I've noticed that I'm not able to commit as much mental drive into my workouts after 6 weeks. It's like as I approach failure, the demon in the back of my head that reminds me of my past failures gets very quiet- and a new voice emerges that tells me to f*** off from the gym starts screaming. Point is.... I can't find the mental drive to perform to failure, even if my muscle may be fine. I'd take Dr. Mike's suggestion, cut my workout volume by half for a week, then by the next week, I actually perform better than I did on the 6th week of the prior mesocycle.

[@mathewstafford7943]

Same, when I first started lifting long ago (32 now) and was going balls to the wall and progressing every week, I started getting nauseous and sick after about a month. At the time I heard of stuff like CNS fatigue and all that, but didn't know about deloads. I also had a lot of knee and joint pains from really heavy squats and deadlifts as my weight was jumping so quick. Any time I took a significant break, I felt 10x better coming back. Only thing I wish I could of changed back then was cutting my volume and intensity back instead of taking a week off entirely. I love both Mike and Wolf but often I feel like Wolf leans too much into doing only what the data suggests and one of the #1 things you learn in the sciences is that correlation does not mean causation, and a lot of his thoughts are based on just a handful of studies which isn't too helpful either. Meanwhile Mike is a lot of generalization, but both are amazing resources to have for free.

[@D4Z3D_]

@@mathewstafford7943Good point. I think none of those studies include intermediate - advanced lifters doing heavy, intense, grueling sessions můtiple times a week. I bet they’d find it just wrecks you if you don’t take time off.

[@ThaKKatt]

I don't appreciate clickbait titles even if you're going for channel hypertrophy

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

Agreed, the keys to channel hypertrophy are volume, consistency, and quality. No need for fad exercises or cheat reps, though a little bit of body english is okay as long as you still control the eccentric.

[@asprinklingofclouds]

@@user-fn1cd6mo9z And Dr Mike is an eccentric who needs to be controlled.

[@andrewmueller9986]

unsub

[@schulme123]

DEBUNKED???? Come on Milo, don't be a click baiter.

[@Lerppunen]

I just unsubbed because of the annoying clickbaits.

[@schulme123]

@@Lerppunen I can understand that.

[@Ash.Palmer]

​@@Lerppunen Yes, I have also unsubscribed. The clickbait coupled with the ”ironic” Ali G / Omar Isuf humour is unbearable.

[@nirajshuklaNL]

How quickly I’ve gotten really into a channel and then got so fed up with it. This and the Sean video were so unnecessary

[@gn2540]

Same here. Also, he's not debating other people like Kassen Hanson from N1.

[@RCCurtright]

I have to say regarding over training, if the general population of viewers is 20 something y/o bodybuilders with desk jobs, sure. Very unlikely to be overtraining. If you are in your 40s and have a blue collar job, going from a 3 day a week beginner program to 5 or 6 days a week might break you. Ask me how I know.

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

Haha, yep, been there too 😅

[@adamsflake]

The one thing about the systemic fatigue/deload thing that I think gets overlooked by only looking at the data and having a pure empirical approach and ignoring the practical experience of a lot of lifters like myself, is that 1. As Milo admits theres basically a huge lack of data on the subject. 2. The data that does exist focuses pretty exclusively on recovery in terms of “muscle damage” I agree that soreness isn’t a good marker for recovery necessarily, but what about connective tissue pain ? For me my joints feel noticeably better after a de-load, and given how much less blood-flow there is to connective tissues I think its extremely unlikely they recover at the same speed as muscle tissue. So I do think there is a practical benefit to de-loading if you are someone who deals with connective tissue pain. There seems to be a pretty big genetic component to this, some people have tendons of steel, but for me personally I know that after a few weeks of really hard training at 1 RIR to failure 6 days a week my joints need a longer break than just a day or two.

[@EmanDS]

Yep, it’s been unequivocally confirmed that connective tissue and even bone adapt at a much slower rate than muscle. I don’t use deloads because I believe that they’ll improve results. I literally just do them after hard training has caught up and I’m starting to get consistent twinges in my joints despite crisp technique with slow eccentrics Don’t want them suddenly blowing up if I push through lol

[@Chappelle-JT4TP]

I need a break from lifting from time to time because I starting feeling weak and exhausted. Then about a week of not training I come back a lot stronger. I do have to say however, if it is a bit longer like 2 weeks, I feel like I need to ease into it slowly before I can do a reasonable amount of volume. I haven't been training for very long, but I do wonder, am I doing something wrong? I hear people saying they train 5 or 6 times a week which I find hard to match. I can do 1 hour of exercise for 5 days, but then I need 2 whole days off and a lot of sleep to recover. I walk a lot and am fairly active however when not in the gym. I don't count that towards exercise, but maybe I should.

[@stevetallantyre]

100% this. I'm almost 50 and I need a deload or rest week every 2 or 3 months so my joints can fully recover. This is true even -- or especially -- if I'm recovering well otherwise and my muscles and energy levels are fine. If I don't give my connective tissues the occasional break, the twinges build up and the 'injury imminent' radar starts beeping.

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

@@Chappelle-JT4TP Actually, this reminds me of one of the examples in Dr. Mike's "How to Return to Training After a Long Layoff"...tldr muscles lose volume adaptation and resensitize to training fairly quickly during a break, sometimes just a few weeks off is enough to require a low volume phase before you can get back to normal training.

[@kidbrown2010]

Milo looks at studies in a vacuum and does not contextualize them. These studies on deloads are garbage because they look at a 5-week window. The benefits of deloads are long term and the extra muscle (gained as a result of continuous high quality performance) and well being will not show up within 5 weeks. It's not like you hit 4 weeks of intense training and suddenly shut down and can't gain muscle anymore.. the fatigue accumulates over weeks and months and starts making you weaker and more prone to injury respectively in that time long term time frame. Any experience lifter will attest to this. It's not rocket science. To cap it off.. when you study deloads in a lab, you are assuming everyone fatigues the same way.. It's very likely many of the subjects that deloaded on week 5 would need 8-12 weeks of intense training before deloading is beneficial.. while others might need to do so every 4th or 5th week.. which such variance in genetics (and an inability to say who belongs where) the results are highly unreliable.

[@kwerby3285]

Being subbed to you both feels like my parents are fighting

[@schulme123]

But he agreed with everything...this is click bait IMO.

[@giuliam2531]

It's all pretend to fight❤

[@deanradley65]

@@schulme123Yeh it’d be like if your idea of parents fighting is one of them likes pizza for takeout but the other likes burgers.

[@schulme123]

@@deanradley65 Clearly burgers...LOL

[@koenigcochran]

I usually deload/take a couple extra days once a month, and it helps a ton. I'm interested to know more about the study you mentioned. How hard were they going? Were they untrained? Any previous injuries? I'll take a look later UPDATE: I read the article. Seems okay. They claim to have gone to failure on five sets of various exercises with a 2min break, lower body twice weekly and upper body twice weekly (though it sounds like the upper body routine was not supervised?). The subjects were chosen from a population that exercises at least 3 times a week. It doesn't seem any subjects reported a worrisome injury history, and they were

[@martonstarwars8756]

I’m so

[@BenG-rd5wg]

Very cool video to react upon, I got a lot of general hypertrophy takeaways. Thanks, Milo 🙏

[@dcuccia]

Re: cumulative fatigue and deloads, what about joint and tendon inflammation & other factors that can mediate potential injury/setbacks?

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

This is pretty much exactly why I deload, it's to let my joints heal between mesos.

[@Valentindk]

You should not put a deload in, just because, it should bw done if you can feel you need it, but to do it every month or 2 month, it is worthless

[@ProphetFear]

If you want your arguments to hold water you have to beat Dr. Mike on the mat!

[@ippanpedrozo1162]

preferably shirtless and baby-oiled up 👀

[@lenapaulsstepbrother2338]

naked

[@Gopher31]

He’s done that many times! Or did you mean Jiu Jitsu?

[@ProphetFear]

@@Gopher31 Of course, how else do you know these arguments are valid?

[@NewDarkKnight]

Make it drug tested

[@killerkhatiby009]

Milo, you mentioned 10-20 sets being adequate for trained lifters, but what about beginner lifters? What's a good set number recommendation to start most people on who are brand new to lifting? Also, what qualifies as a trained lifter in your opinion and when should sets be increased to reach that 10-20 range as you transition from beginner to intermediate?

[@dymbus]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZ6ZqJKahKadebc

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

New lifters need very little volume to get great results. It also usually takes 2-3 years of consistent lifting to move from beginner to intermediate...it's not a good thing, we're not talking about your experience or how much you know, it's about how resistant to growth your muscles are becoming due to prolonged adaptation. You want to be a 'beginner' as long as possible. If you're brand new, start with about 4 sets per muscle group per week. So if you train chest twice a week, do 2 sets each time. After about a month of consistent training, add 2 sets to your weekly total. So, 4 weekly sets to start in month one, next month 6 weekly sets, then next month 8 sets etc. Use that to add volume until the 10-20 range. Stop adding volume and reduce by 2+ weekly sets if it ever starts feeling like too much, either in terms of recovery or how much time you're spending in the gym. Most brand new lifters won't need deloads for at least the first 6 months of training, sometimes longer. Just listen to your body, especially recurring joint pain or decreases in performance from week to week (i.e. weight and reps). If pain is a problem, try changing exercises first. Also immediately stop whatever exercise you're doing for the rest of the day--never try to work through pain or very weird sensations, you'll just end up regretting that decision eventually. If that doesn't help, or your performance is decreasing, it's time for a deload week.

[@jexcdevvv]

Milo I don't agree you this time, soreness can affect your performance inside the gym like bro your chest sore until your next session and it will really affects your performance

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

Yeah, especially if the same muscle is sore going into multiple workouts, something's off and more rest is needed.

[@Valentindk]

Soreness has never hampered me in anyway

[@SEAKPhotog]

Great stuff. Thanks!

[@artvandelay1720]

I've never had overtraining from resistance training (unless you count overuse injuries), but it's pretty easy to hit that point from doing endurance sports. I've been struggling with it a lot this summer.

[@russelljfawcett]

Nearly 40. Doing full body workouts every 4-6 days, though my recovery time does seem to be trending downwards. From session to session I am increasing volume. I'm using auto-regulation to gauge recovery. I try to fatigue everything that I work to the point that they are each recovering about the same time. My question is on where you disagree with Dr. Mike about recovery. I have been using the self regulation, but would you think it would actually be more beneficial to have scheduled sessions and pull back on my volume so as to be recovered between scheduled sessions? I can't imagine doing 4-6 full-body sessions a week and not either being constantly tired, or sufficiently stimulated from one workout to the next. And on top of that I've had to transition to higher rep ranges on the bench to rehab my shoulder. Pushing the number of reps and sets to get near failure is very fatiguing.

[@RESNone208]

The simple solution would definitely be scheduled sessions with much higher frequency and some sort of split. It's what pretty much everyone who gets results does. You could do 4x weekly upper/lower, 5-6x PPL, arnold split, whatever - the split is just a way of organizing total weekly volume such that every muscle group is getting a given number of hard sets weekly based on recovery. If you're the type of guy who doesn't want to spend a lot of time in the gym, which it sounds like you are (and there's nothing wrong with that, we all have different priorities and goals) then 4x/wk upper/lower would probably be the way to go. U/L/R/U/L/R/R, something like that. If you're running one full body lift every 4-6 days, it's unlikely that pulling back on total weekly volume would be necessary - you'll probably even be able to increase it - but per-session volume might be lower. It might also just be more targeted, ex. total per-session sets equated but spent on fewer muscle groups.

[@russelljfawcett]

@RESNone208 I appreciate your input and thought, but this was a comment specifically about full-body workouts. I've done PPL and UL splits before. And even with what you're suggesting, each area is getting hit twice, maybe 3 times a week. My comment centered around the portion where he was specifically talking about full-body training needing to be 4-6 times per week. And really, everything centers around recovery for me. I chose full-body because PPL/ UL have never been able to build any sort of consistency for me. I focus hard on 3 compound exercises and supplement with isolations if I feel an area is lagging. My goals are also not mass-monster goals. I am alternate hypertrophy and strength phases to break through a plateau in my strength gain. 7 working sets of bench, 5 working sets of pull-ups, 4 sets of pause squats. Everything is done to about 2-3 RIR.

[@reallyeffingcooltechnodude]

Did you see the recent vid by Dr. Mike about training in your forties? Really good stuff.

[@russelljfawcett]

@reallyeffingcooltechnodude I did. I agree, great vid.

[@followtheenglish]

Love this and Mike´s channel. Keep up the good work. Especially you two making sweet lov.... eeehh... making videos together. :D

[@Ignoranymoose]

Let's not forget that most of Dr Mike's content isn't intended for 90% of gym gen-pop. He caters to people with serious goals of bodybuilding, be it casual or professional. Min-maxing people, not just those casually looking to lose some weight and 'tone up'.

[@jordany9807]

Great stuff. Love your content and Dr. Mike's. You should get Dr. Mike to respond to your critiques.

[@Chappelle-JT4TP]

When it comes to building muscle, which is more important? Training the muscle to failure where it gives out and cannot contract anymore, or work it so that it fatigues from soreness/muscle damage and there is no more drive to get in another rep?

[@russelljfawcett]

1 to 3 reps from failure. As he stated, when the velocity of the concentric rep begins to slow significantly, you are in that failure range. You can go to total failure on every set if you want to. That is what I did for years. The soreness and fatigue are reduced a ton just by stopping 1 rep short. I've converted to aiming for 2-3 reps shy of failure and more often with my later sets am hitting 0-1 reps from failure. But my overall fatigue has dropped significantly from 7 days for full recovery to 4 or 5 days. Fatigue and soreness aren't a prerequisite for muscle growth, but they can be a byproduct of working hard enough to achieve muscle growth.

[@crazynaroo4259]

How can we account for the multiple press movements if we want to train 20 sets per week for triceps? Would you count each work set for the bench press with emphasis on chest as half a work set for the triceps, as per Ogawara et al. 2013?

[@SakuragiLastname9]

You are overthinking it brother just count sets for the muscle theyre targeting. If you do 8 sets of bench you wouldnt decrease your sets of triceps by 4 because they count as "half a working set"

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

@@SakuragiLastname9 Agree, only count primary muscles in compound movements for set tracking purposes. That said, listen to your body...you may need to lower some isolation work volume if you're supporting muscles are feeling taxed from earlier compound lifts.

[@Burkhimself]

Dr Wolf…..give us a nerdy vid on shrugs ! Angles, frequency, etc 🙏🏼

[@DarthNoshitam]

The problem with empiricism is that most science is kind of a contrivance-the "average human" doesn't exist 🤷‍♂️

[@LongFacedBastard]

You do not understand science.

[@assafmatia9823]

both you and dr. mike have a great content. debunk=1 disagree on recovery/deload(which on a vid both of you did a few weeks ago this isdue was more understood by both of you), 2 minor correction, 7 agreed 😊 you can continue to "love" each other😉

[@giovannidominoni]

8-10 sets seems a little bit too much. I remember a recent study that said that 6-8 to sets per week of the main muscle groups (so, basically, push 6 reps, pull 6 reps, legs 6 reps) is statistically enough to retain muscle mass and gain muscles to some degree too. Personally, with 8, I get the best results. 10, I tend to feel like I recover too slow already after 1 week (of course it depends how hard you go, and also if you throw in some aerobic training too in the "rest" days, which I normally too, doing 20 mins of Vo2Max on Wednesday and 10 mins uphill sprints on Mondays, plus 4 days of weight lifting). Of course, the weeks I do only weight lifting, maybe because my ankle is injured or something like that, I grow like a baloon

[@Chappelle-JT4TP]

While perceptual may not have an effect on muscle growth and performance, I do find that ignoring them butchers motivation. If something makes me so sore that I feel like shit, yet I perform the same, that's not something I want to deal with all the time. The same goes with a pump, if it gives me a very good feeling, that drives me to train harder, leading to better gains. On that note, does anyone else feel like they are stronger with a pump? I imagine that internal pressure does indeed increase strength temporarily like holding breath. Interesting hypothesis. Is there any data on this?

[@vladmarghitas3794]

Yess, that's a very good point. The perceptuals are useful at least in one regard - the psychological one, which is perhaps underrated as a variable within Milo's pure empiricist framework. I think this is more of an issue of epistemological blindness in relation to mechanisms and potential cofounded variables - even though we don't have the evidence to attest that pump or soreness reliably predicts muscle growth/recovery rate (which btw is only absence of evidence, not evidence of absence), using these perceptuals to guide training decisions is observed to be effective in practice times and times again (which is probably where Dr Mike comes from with this argument) for certain reasons, which I would guess are mostly psychological in nature. Being a psychologist myself, I can 100% assure you that it doesn't remain just a psychological phenomenon, as this literally influences your motivation to be consistent with working out, the degree of enjoyment and self-eficacy, even more so the perception of fatigue (which is always a combination of physiological and psychological factors - also relevant for the arguments on deloads, besides the obvious Milo's omission of connective tissue fatigue). Those psychological factors, in turn, will contribute to your actual performance, consistency and adherence in the gym, which all of us agree are objectively decisive factors for hypertrophy. I think that this is not really a disagreement between these two, but rather different epistemological lenses influenced by different backgrounds and experiences: Dr Mike - more of a practioneer, oriented toward useful heuristics and synthetical in his way of thinking; Dr Milo - more empirically-oriented, skeptical and analytical. And I think that we need and should love both for what they offer :)

[@richtheunstable3359]

I support deloading every now and again. Doing it now been missing weights I've been hitting for a month in some cases. Motivation going down etc. however i don't think its the workout that is messing me up and causing fatigue but life in general. I need to rest and recouperate due to life being a b***h.

[@TommyEgan.7]

Dr. Wolf, could u please do videos for skinny people that struggle gaining weight and muscle mass ? It's so hard to gain it.

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

Just want to say don't give up, bro...my bestie is a genetically skinny guy, started around 6' and 130lbs, is up to 155lbs lean after two years in the gym now. Not sure if it'll work for everyone, but he lifts fairly light but slow with higher reps. I have the opposite problem, I started out 5'11" and 300lbs, now I'm at 220lbs, still chubby but feeling way better and stronger. Anyway, hang in there, plenty of hardgainers out there still putting on muscle.

[@chayoto]

I loved the summary. Mike is my Plato and my friend, but studies are an even better friend of mine (amicus meus Plato, sed magis amica Veritas).

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

Plato was my first love, I've had Cooper and Hutchinson's edition of his complete works for probably 20 years now, still go back to scribble in the margins every so often. Dr. Mike is pretty cool, too.

[@Flahtort]

11:18 Training 2-3 times for 5-8 sets adds up to from 10 to 24, nor from 15 to Because 2*5 and 3*8.

[@seanfarrellforreal]

Please please please critique Dr Jim Stoppani. I’ve followed him for YEARS and his information is very valuable, but I’ve asked SO MANY PEOPLE to give him some constructive criticism and have not gotten or seen any.

[@johnkross7227]

i'm gonna have to go with mike on the recovery, wolf is talking about how terrible soreness is as a marker, but then starts talking about systemic fatigue as if it's a marker at all for 99.9% of people. at least soreness is some sort of feedback. who the hell is like " I think i might be overtraining, let me just wip out my blood analyzer and figure out my systemic fatigue" s.f. is completely worthless. i'll stick with soreness till we have a better way.

[@douglasauruss]

Ok but if you're an intermediate and not gaining weight despite good training and sleeping, and getting all the protein in, and you're 12-15% body fat, you must eat more calories to gain more muscle at a decent pace?

[@janfollner5774]

I might be an outlier, but man, if I didnt start using deloads 3 or 4 years ago, I probably would have made half of the gains I made.

[@michaelmac3]

I feel like the human mind was really disregarded in this video for some of the "debunks". Taking a week off after 4 months of lifting can just be a nice break for the brain as well as changing up some workouts every so often. You can and most likely will get bored as hell if you are doing the same exact workout for a year straight without any variation.

[@666kuzya666]

Why is the variety of responsiveness to certain stimulus for muscle growth from person to person is always out of the question?! Some are more responsive to volume, the others - to intensity. Both approaches are tools. It's like arguing what is better: fork or spoon, or sticks...

[@jacobt3962]

Damn I really need that shirt lmao

[@falcn828]

Damn...I found you through him...now you are debunking his stuff...I'm about to bounce

[@plugliferecords8618]

19:15 taking Dr Mike out of context. I am sure he’s speaking of high intermediates and advanced lifters. He’s stated many time that the majority of people are not advanced to necessitate a deload. He’s also stated many times throughout the explanation of his systemic RP programming that the deload is to ensure joint tissue health after a mesocycle due to ramping up of training. The final week of the meso should be at an unsustainable volume meaning that the next week metrics will decline or stabilize. This week is intended for failure training and beyond 10RPE. Drop sets adding sets and exercises to beyond failure at an unsustainable practice would then determine a deload necessary. This is the whole sales point of his programming style. 3 sets by 3 exercises 2 x weekly for 18 sets normally and upwards of 25 on a week 4 or 5 before deload.

[@plugliferecords8618]

Also deload means light workout for a week to ramp back up to such a program

[@mathewstafford7943]

meh a lot of it is out of context, or a surface level view of just ONE of Mike's videos. I mean right away we are talking about 1g of protein when Mike himself has had plenty of videos where he talks about the .5-.8 range. This is sort of a critique video of a very "Mike's generalizations," kind of video so it's already going to be off. That said, I'm pretty sure they are friendly with each other, and critiquing each other just helps fuel their own channels together.

[@KhaaliqDeJan]

I totally disagree with your overtraining opinion. Cumulative fatigue is absolutely a thing. I was doing a full body plan 6 days a week and by week 8 I was toast, had to deload and switched to a modified bro split where I’m still in the gym 6 days a week, but doing like half the number of sets and focusing on 1 or 2 body parts every day. Fatigue hasn’t been a problem yet and I’m on week 7 of this plan. Also I don’t think you’re taking progressive overload into account. At the beginning of a plan you’re doing less weight and thus less overall total volume (sets * weight * reps), but two months in each session is going to be that much more fatiguing.

[@gman9002]

Dr mike says in other videos 1g of protein is a little much but its the easiest way to keep track

[@johnrocksvold9105]

Most studies seem to be regional and not systemic. I keep hearing these insane set ranges for a week. Definitely not achievable by your average lifter. So, how do you know your systemic volume is affective before that volume makes you too tired to be consistent?

[@youteubakount4449]

I think we shouldn't limit ourselves to what science provides evidence for. Science is limited to what we have tested and reproduced, and only allows us to access so much in terms of knowledge. I would prefer if, when you say "there is no evidence of...", that you either say "this hasn't been tested", or "multiple studies have not found any difference with the alternative", which to me is very different in terms of how I weigh it. What do you think?

[@DarthThogre]

In the variation question, you kinda stawmanned arguing against pump as a sole feeler for what variations work, but he explicitly said in his example to keep doing an exercise for a few weeks even if it doesn't feel like much, and I feel like the obvious implication there is to use growth as the metric. Like I think you're arguing against a point he didn't make

[@ozzy6162]

I think Mike & Milo don't consider the age range of those going to the gym these days when they make their videos & they really should by now. I know that some of what they recommend has to be adapted for me as I'm over 60 and age, hormone changes etc., don't allow me to train with the intensity I once did nor recover as fast as I used to. However some older guys (50+) may not have my gym experience & may not realise that they need to adapt some of Mike & Milo's advice - that should be made clear.

[@freddym6643]

What should the ratio be between pushing and pulling exercises for the upper body? Equal? More pulling than pushing?

[@pilapolicka9744]

Depends on priority muscle groups

[@dieandgoaway]

There are more muscles in the back. You need at least a close grip horizontal and vertical pull both and either a wide grip horizontal or vertical pull. For push you need a lower and incline press and vertical press and side delts.

[@DavidListen_Buddhism]

Love the friendly disagreement and critical thinking.

[@swandaley]

Empiricism is king in bodybuilding. If you don't see a change, it means it's not working.

[@tedwhite9359]

You could be weaker if you timed recovery wrong in either direction. Not recovered due to overtraining or recovered and weaker due to not training for too long. If you’re working out a muscle 2-3 days per week and getting weaker, switch to once per week and cut cardio in half.

[@RoidfreeSenior]

sounds like you guys are not too far apart

[@D4Z3D_]

Fatigue does not cummulate weekly? Just try heavy 2 deadlift and 2 squat sessions per week. your fatigue will build at the speed of light amd tendons + joints will be begging for mercy.

[@fran6b]

How about the importance of getting enough sleep to build muscles properly?

[@BlackSpice]

Please do a video on regional hypetrophy

[@thebonk7138]

While it's a thing it's not as dominant as full muscular hypertophy

[@BlackSpice]

there is a lot with triceps and biceps

[@thebonk7138]

@BlackSpice I think you're talking about separate muscular heads being grown instead of different portion of a muscles head. Like what we do for Incline Bench for upper/clavicular head of the chest. That type of training can be used to absolutely preferentially grow muscles. But there's minimal evidence of different parts of a head being grown is what in saying. Like its not as effective both physiologically and physics wise to grow the bicep heads near the elbow preferentially over the entirety of the muscle being grown.

[@BlackSpice]

distal and proximal is a thing with long head shortened pushdowns vs overhead extension.

[@thebonk7138]

@@BlackSpice not as effective tho man

[@pricklycats]

Why does this thumbnail make Mike look like Sean Nalewanyj if he took tren lmao

[@tommylarnefeldt7671]

Bold move to even try but nothing Sensei Mike said was debunked

[@baronmeduse]

So you're saying if I can't get it up I'm a failure?

[@dorvaci]

how you can keep a straight face with all Mike is saying is beyond me, I'm seeing this for the second time and its still fucking hillarious 😅

[@steeltempest00]

how about a q&a?

[@phantomcreamer]

Hey doc, you've done quite a few "perfect X bodygroup workout" videos. I'd really like to see how you stitch them together into the "perfect weekly/monthly" program, to see how the volume and exercise selection changes.

[@LucidStrike]

There's no way that's not already in his content schedule - He's even already recently done Push and Pull videos - but agreed.

[@schulme123]

Don't per session volumes lead to per week volumes. Therefore, shouldn't we care about per session volume?

[@LucidStrike]

Per session volume and frequency are mostly just ways to manage fatigue - and time - in your programming.

[@schulme123]

@@LucidStrike While I fully agree with you, that's not my point. Milo is "debunking" Mike's claim about per session volume being important. Milo disagrees and states that per week is more important. One leads to the other and this seems like splitting hairs to me.

[@enumclaw79]

I certainly seem to accumulate systemic fatigue (as opposed to localised muscle fatigue) so that if I don't deload I get more and more generally tired and crappy feeling, even if my performance isn't dropping (I start needing a nap after a gym session to be able to do the rest of my day) until, if I keep pushing through, I start to get ear and throat infections and am forced to take time off sick. Maybe it doesn't help being mid-40's. That said, I tend to play it by ear and take a week off when I feel I need it rather than scheduling in advance.

[@flow1188]

I think ppl like you have other Problems. I Workout 6 Days for 70 Minutes and have a Hard Job and i have no Problems im 37

[@enumclaw79]

@@flow1188 There is a very big difference between mid 30's and mid 40's. I'd wait till you get here before slinging insults around.

[@michaelsiemasko9395]

Odds are he doesnt train as hard as he thinks he does.​@enumclaw79

[@michaelsiemasko9395]

If you were accumulating volume im a way that produces as much growth stimulus as possible your workouts would get longer, they wouldnt hover at 70 minutes, so i doubt you know what your talking about, daily training sessions can rise up to 120 plus minutes per day. Your problem is a lack of understanding and over confidence​@flow1188

[@fran6b]

I think you are doing great. Dr Mike and Milo seem to both miss and important point : sleeping. Not getting enough sleep is different than doing too much, but is an important part, if not crucial, for building muscle. Many things happen during that time and many others things is to consider to evaluate our needs in that department. Taking a nap when needed is never a bad idea, _au contraire_ .

[@tomashorst9544]

26:29 Why? If something works better for you, then do that? I feel like this is putting science too much on a pedestal to be honest

[@Yupppi]

Developing different parts of muscles is a strong idea? Athlean-X was right all along having 20 different exercise for a single muscle to hit it from all directions.

[@timothykowalewski3943]

I like Milo, but he needs to keep the whole humor thing to Dr. Mike

[@fullhd5277]

I lean more with you .

[@dakotasonney2142]

"Thats what she calls it, strange"

[@naturelife418]

Team Grizzly Kyroakis scream endless volume with 0 rir and 0 sleep and 0 food 100% waterfast.

[@TommyEgan.7]

I knew this would eventually happen...

[@MightyMarven]

Milo, there's a significant resurgence in the popularity of HIT training by Mike Mentzer on KZbin and social media lately. While you've addressed some of his recommendations already, would you consider making another video breaking down his other ideas in more depth?

[@Ryan30z]

The only reason it's catching on is because it sounds good. Most of the information he gave is beyond sub optimal.

[@afifsamirnasreddine3768]

I thought that resurgence was a couple of years ago? Maybe it's just my feed that ends up being a lot of debunking (in a fair and nuanced way) of Mentzer's methods. I also think a lot of folks do applaud him for having a systematic approach and rationale in the absence of quality scientific research.

[@The_Legend715]

The principle are good in-fact great, the application is garbage. Anyone who claims a one size fit all is automatically wrong.

[@phantomcreamer]

I hope he doesn't. This sh has been beaten to death by the science-based community. A complete waste of time.

[@thorinhayward1124]

@@afifsamirnasreddine3768HIT seems to resurge every 6-8 years. You can tell it's happening again when videos featuring Arnold Schwarzenegger start receiving floods of angry comments, with new HIT advocates claiming that Mike Mentzer, the genius, was the true winner of the 1980 Olympia, and Arnold stole the title from him.

[@itsmyboardwhotalk]

to deload/accumulating fatigue: could imagine it changes for hybrid athletes/hybrid training could be a moderator variable. most ppl I know (myself included) who advocate deload time frames (I personally think one week is to long, 4-5days is enough) accumulate a lot of small injuries of a certain training time frame. maybe my muscles recovered from my last workout, but not my whole body. But I also def tend to overtraining, bc with 3+ different sports I always feel I dont do enough, maybe thats whey deload time frame has such a big effect on me.

[@Metalmachine18]

Milo got Kendrick on the back foot for being the biggest hater around town

[@dcoderjr]

How is he not laughing?

[@kygo]

One thing it would be great if you could touch on at some point... If I was doing 21 sets per week for a muscle group, say shoulders... is it better / worse / no difference if I do 3 sets a day, or 6 sets every other day? One argument could say, if I'm just doing 3 sets a day, well I can hit each of those 3 sets hard vs if I was doing 6 sets, by sets 5 or 6, they probably aren't going to be as good as the first few sets. BUT maybe on the other side, doing it every day without a full rest day in between I'm not giving sufficient time for them to recover??

[@gokukakarot1855]

For the algorithm

[@pricklycats]

Bro changed Mikes race in the thumbnail

[@gravshark]

wait you guys thought your brolationship was a secret? oh my sweet summer child

[@TheHybrid350]

Great

[@kapitankapow]

who got time to do more than 20 sets per muscle

[@nicholasfevelo3041]

Did you flag my post Milo?

[@chrisyim5692]

Mike is great at speaking with confidence so people take his word as fact even on topics he's not qualified on

[@Vintage_geek]

Hm... a sports scientist with a PhD in the field is not qualified to talk about strategies for muscle growth?

[@chrisyim5692]

@@Vintage_geek I'm talking about his non-sports rants. But also when he dabbles on pain science and injuries

[@contentkeeper8769]

He also makes jokes so people find him more likeable. They perceive him as a more trustworthy guy because he makes them smile or laugh. They do this without actually thinking of validity of the information they consume. Most science based lifter communities have this problem. The gym-goer takes whatever the ‘science based’ influencer says without critically thinking.

[@contentkeeper8769]

⁠@@Vintage_geekA PhD in what? That means nothing.

[@camdendavis284]

chad thrice sayer, I do it too, we are twins

[@6guage]

Thanks, you addressed two of my concerns. 225 at ~ 30% (hard to tell, I store fat oddly) basically recomping and I was skeptical of both needing a calorie surplus as well as needing 225g of protein because of my higher bf. I’m extra inclined to now believe that I do not yet

[@leodegas7731]

Reaction videos, to me, are a waste of time and seem petty. I like Dr mikes videos when he's giving advice or alternate ways to think about something. Food for thought. It also looks like those videos are just content fillers. Just to put a video out and not informative. Putting down a star or trainers to stars is just a filler. Stars have different goals than powerlifters and bodybuilders. They're making billion dollar block busters and it's their livelihood. Reacting to their training methods is ridiculous in my humble opinion. In short. Do great informative videos and don't give in to negative type videos or judging others. ✌️😊 Stick to facts or showing your workout tips. ✌️

[@gyorgygajdos1657]

You don't have his muscles, so this decides the deal.

[@Malravenous]

I mean one person is natural😅

[@vedranvedran141]

Milo why are you doing this? You debunking God himself looking for a hair in an egg.

[@ScbSnck]

Click bait titles are like rep cheating, bro.

[@unreactive]

Dr Mike's lover 😳

[@lukeharris2622]

✝️💪

[@elijahcaraballo2903]

So maingaining works.. either way just train hard and eat and look in the mirror and check the scale for insight!

[@GregPaxson]

🙄

[@natpaolone3897]

Cleavage!!! Nice one Milo 😅

[@MiguePizar]

0.7 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight only works if a person eats high quality protein, and a lot of people don't eat 100% of their protein from high quality protein, they count incomplete protein like plants and collagen among other as their total account, that's why the 1gr is better, because of that and because you are going get a diet easier with more protein, but yes, the 0.7 is true, that's what more or less I eat, but from full quality proteins and I even add some EAA. Thanks for the video

[@antonioM6896]

More like BUNKED

[@Scott-fs6pj]

Whats shakin....

[@President488]

What the fuck is that thumbnail

[@stevel.251]

Splitting hair!!!

[@Bknorrski]

First comment and like

[@DonVoyage6948]

Why are you hiding your chin tho?