Designing segmented Knapp-joint templates for the pantorouter

[@matthiaswandel]

$5 off your 1st order from pcbway.com with this link: www.pcbway.com/setinvite.aspx?inviteid=599997 PCBWay.com does 3d printing, CNC machining and PCBs and PCB assemblies.

[@lasskinn474]

your friend needs to adjust pressure advance on his printer

[@kaboomer13]

I was shocked by your ad in the middle. I'm glad you did it though! I love your content and if you can make more by running an ad, I'm happy!

[@TheFreeBro]

Great sponsor, I’ve used them in the past. Very quality stuff if you can wait for the shipping

[@killsalot78]

4:20 I assure you its so easy to 3d print. Printers aren't that expensive, a prusa mini is very affordable, built well, and could easily print out jigs like these and anything small/bracket like. Once you have a printer and use it a few times your really start to understand how useful it is and all of the things you can do with it. Yes sometimes there is some calibration but really its not hard at all. Also its funny how you immediately even without having a printer started blaming acceleration when the pcbway prints came out with the exact same segmented finish. Im pretty sure the sketchup export to STL was too low of a resolution for the details you wanted, I've had issues with it and other software like blender in the past hence me only using fusion360 for modeling now. Problems like these are so easy to see in the slicer yourself and I promise you its all very intuitive unless you overthink things for no reason. Most of the time printing slower will fix issues yes, but I think a slicer preview would show the real problem in this instance. Also filament is cheap and its obvious the pcbway print is a much higher quality material than whatever your client speed-printed. There is a lot of choice in material with FDM printing and it makes a huge difference

[@sodapopjenkins]

Retro Active Precision !!!! yes !!!

[@nixlarfs1002]

I find it very wholesome that the commercial provider of the pantorouter still consults you for these things. Of course its a commercial decision, but it takes at least a little bit of humility:)

[@ludvigericson6930]

… and 1.72 million followers

[@jo_nathan_nation6544]

I mean Mathis is an engineer and is the one that invented the pantarouter

[@nixlarfs1002]

Sure, I don't find it weird at all! But I do find it wholesome:)

[@mattym8]

He asks Mattias and gets a working solution quicker than anyone else could provide it. Why would he go elsewhere? Also they already have a commercial arrangement with royalties paid on each unit sold.

[@liambohl]

You can't get far as an entrepreneur without a bit of humility and a willingness to ask for help

[@tommysedin]

As a Swede, the word "Knapp-joint" always makes me smile. Knapp is Swedish for "button" and the joint does look like a row of buttons. It's just amusing to me that the inventor was named Knapp and invented a joint that looks like buttons. :)

[@timehunter9467]

That’s an awesome coincidence, couldn’t have worked out better.

[@rickt151]

In Dutch the word 'knap' (same pronunciation as Knapp) can mean something like beautiful, pretty or advanced. That's not far off from the truth either, an extra language in the list!

[@matthiaswandel]

In German it means being short of, or nearly short of something.

[@grantdeterman1987]

Knapp to me reminds me of a local timber baron "John Holly Knapp" that was very active in western Wisconsin (mid to late 1800s) and has a lot of places and buildings named for him now. Doesn't seem to be the one who it was named for but a relation seems plausible.

[@LouCars]

@@matthiaswandel Also in some Dutch dialects

[@PCBWay]

Our pleasure to help you fab these parts out and most importantly, nice content as always！ 👍

[@sbellock5]

Retroactive precision is something I would like to implement in my life as easily as you did here.

[@DenmarkRadar]

That's one smart pantorouter manufacturer, getting both some advertising and the help to invent/design this clever add-on 😃

[@bullfrogpondshop3179]

When I saw you making these templates out of wood, my first thought was, "that would be easier and more accurate on a 3D printer." Well done!

[@tmuka]

Haha, and I was thinking CNC 😁

[@williamreinhard]

Yeah, I love seeing Matthias figure stuff like this out with wood and a bandsaw but sometimes the best solution really would be a 3d printer or CNC.

[@simon5296]

Pure genius! You are way beyond the level of super skilled woodworker, but a combination of all thoughtful/creative ideas and ability to make them happen.

[@GilesBathgate]

@Matthias I can understand why you don't want a 3d printer, I am always amazed how skillful you are at creating things in wood. In fact probably most of my 3d printed projects, you could make in half the time in wood, and it will be stronger! That said 3d printing is a lot of fun, so its worth the investment from that perspective ;)

[@GilesBathgate]

Your analysis of the segment approximation, not creating curves, is not far off. Its actually more that the 3d printer just prints exactly what you've told it, rather than the acelleration decelleration. (There are also ringing effects due to acceleration/decelleration, but that's a different story) Either way the solution as you rightly allude to is simply to create lots more segments in the sketchup geometry.

[@rutgerhoutdijk3547]

i think it was a hint to 3d printer manufacturers to send him one for free

[@T3sl4]

I was thinking, given his investment in wood as a medium, a CNC mill would be more his style :)

[@markot1962]

Anyone in 3D printer space perhaps could recommend what to get as a new user. I have Artillery Genius Pro and Anet A8 and I wouldn't call them hassle free printers. Anyone perhaps who has used these and perhaps Prusa (or even smth more expensive) could comment whether it's worth the extra investment up front. Then we could perhaps @ the manufacturer and make it happen :)

[@GilesBathgate]

@@markot1962 "not hassle free", yeah thats what I mean by fun 😂

[@mickeyfilmer5551]

What an amazing wood joint- that machine is just outta this world. I wish I could justify one. You've a rare set of skills there sir! Fantastic.

[@MultiKlompen]

Hi Matthias, you should do a strenght test with those knapp-joints.

[@stevekreitler9349]

I'm an old woodworker, and I got my first 3d printer a year ago. It's not really a steep learning curve, and I've been having a blast with mine- I find it a time saver in many ways.

[@williamreinhard]

I'm sure Matthias could do amazing things with a 3d printer or CNC if he wanted to.

[@timehunter9467]

Your ingenuity knows no bounds! That’s insanely clever and so well designed!

[@sjdennis]

Being an avid 3d printing guy since 2013 as well as a huge fan of your content and engineering approach to things I can comfortably say that I think a 3d printer is 100% the wrong tool for 95% of what you do. I don't think it compliments your creativity and workflow really at all. To that end though I do have to say I think the application of 3d printing to create dimensional and accurate templates like you did here is that remaining 5%. I think it has a place but I have also found that a lot of times, parts can be created faster, stronger, and way cheaper with other methods. I digress though, loved this video, and the end results are quite stunning. Thanks for the vid.

[@kortt]

I've been 3d printing since 2018 and I would not want to be without one now. So much you can do with the technology. But, I guess, you never know what you are missing until you miss it lol

[@jarodmorris611]

I've learned that the 3d printer is important but the state and the person designing makes all the difference between good and bad results

[@godfreypoon5148]

@@jarodmorris611 This is absolutely correct. I am in New South Wales, Australia, and my 3D prints turn out way better than those of people in Victoria.

[@Kineth1]

I'm really glad that you got a sponsor with a good fit into the channel! Of course, I also liked seeing something new with the panto router. Super easy Knapp joints are just a bonus (if i ever get to that level of woodworking).

[@piccilos]

These templates seem like the perfect job for a 3d printer.

[@float32]

Maybe it’s just me, but I *think* he likes working more with his hands. :)

[@SwitchAndLever]

Basically most 3D printers work off of STL (or similar) mesh format files. This means that there are no arcs, there are no circles, everything is made up of triangular faces and hence only straight lines. The way to get a smooth arc is to increase your export settings to create a denser (i.e. more faces packed more tightly together) mesh and export that. That way arcs will be arcs, and not the segmented thing you ended up with. Not sure how to do that in SketchUp, but I'm sure there's a way.

[@matthiaswandel]

I had the circles as 48 segmens initially. But when you lift the center to make the taper, it often messes up the connections which requires manual fixing. Decided that 24 was precise enough for the end result, but hadn't anticipated printing snafus. But the PCBway prints didn't run into problems with the 24 segments.

[@PCBWay]

caught you there 😊

[@SwitchAndLever]

@@matthiaswandel indeed, there are printers which can analyze meshes and look at the "curvature" of edges connected to each other and figure out what likely is supposed to be a hard edge and what is supposed to be a smooth arc. It's possible PCBWay had something like that turned on, though results vary.

[@typeaboutit]

Get the 3D printer Matthias. You and your smarts will be such a valuable contributor to the community! I love my prusa mini plus - it's very reliable stock :)

[@Sburke15435]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who still calls it google sketchup! The artifact on the DIY printed parts is most likely caused exactly how you described. This can be eliminated/reduced by tuning a parameter called linear advance. Linear advance "predicts" the pressure buildup in the hot end and compensates to prevent over extrusion when changing direction. It could also be made worse by loose belts or other mechanical issues. The number of segments in an arc/circle can be changed from the standard (12 for arcs or 24 for circles) by typing the number of desired segments followed by the letter "s" after creating the arc/circle, i.e. after drawing an arc, type "20s" for 20 segments on the arc. This style command can be used for other properties like diameter, or when copying something, the number of instances. Tapered parts and chamfers can usually be drawn easily by offsetting the face by the taper distance then grabbing the face and moving (not extruding) it upward the desired height. Although, as I'm sure you know, sketchup doesn't always "play nice", so it may not work for all geometries. Thanks for all the great content over the years.

[@matthiaswandel]

I started with 48 segments. But due to sketchup issues, I had to manually fix the polygons after creating the taper, so decided 24 was enough to make a decent joint.

[@Yeltrah]

@@matthiaswandel Makes sense, wondered why you used so few segments.

[@Andyjpro]

9/10 the issue with poor curve approximation with a well tuned printer is in the exporting of the model to STL. For some reason CAD software presets for exporting STLs is hot trash. Any STL files I've received from others using SketchUp have had pretty bad curve approximations.

[@Andyjpro]

That is to say the resolution of the model is not high enough to have smooth curves.

[@jisharagu]

I truly admire how intelligent and ingenious you are. As someone who moved to Canada somewhat recently, it's very hard for me to have the space and money to buy the tools. I have been playing around with those dollar store crafting sticks trying to make small things, like a cell phone stand. I wish there were a mini table saw where you could cut small stuff like that... Crazy stupid idea I guess, but it would be cool to have something you would be able to put on top of your kitchen table... Anyway... Great stuff as always.

[@foolingmachine]

You might want to look into a scroll saw! It's a pretty niche tool usually, but I've found it gives a much higher amount of precision than a jigsaw or bandsaw. Worth a look if space is at a premium. I realize you might be wanting the table saw for clean rip cuts and this wouldn't work well for that, but you could always clamp a piece of scrap to the base plate and achieve something similar which could be cleaned up with a sander.

[@jisharagu]

@@foolingmachine Hey, Thanks for the tip... I'll look it up.

[@matthiaswandel]

There are table saws like that, I think Proxon makes one. But they aren't cheap. There are benchtop table saws though that can be put on a table.

[@jisharagu]

@@matthiaswandel Oh wow... Thank you for responding. I will definitely look it up.

[@elitearbor]

Buying or building a pantorouter is on my "some day" list. I can think of oh-so-many uses for it, but so far I haven't found myself stuck on projects where the only solution would be a pantorouter. Still... talk about a useful, time saving tool.

[@jwsvandr]

"RETROACTIVE PERCISION"----- Love it.. Describes a lot of my work.. Thanks for the video

[@Deqster]

@Matthias Wandel you're partially right on the 3D printing curved line segments... Pretty much all file slicers will take circular profiles and convert them into a series of line segments. There's not usually a G02 or G03 command used on 3d printes.

[@ericsnis]

I found that a 3D printer is rather useful for making woodworking templates as you did. There is a bit of a learning curve for more advanced things, but it's usually not that bad. The most annoying part was bed leveling, but automatic bed leveling is cheap upgrade. Like others pointed out the facets are dependent on how many vertices approximate the curve. Sometimes that is configurable in the CAD package. The Marlin firmware in most consumer printers can be recompiled to enable arcs which improve performance in curved segments. That's probably beyond the abilities or even desires of your average user though.

[@MahBor]

You're the Bob Ross of woodworking!

[@esotericsean]

A decent 3D printer doesn't really require much. I think you'll find way more uses for it than you think if you ever get one. Awesome that PCBWay is sponsoring you, though! :)

[@jethropebs]

Brilliant as usual Matthias! I will be in line to buy this from Mac one day.

[@zerimaryar]

I actually used Pcbway to print a key for my Cintas center pull paper towel holder that cintas no longer sold. I used the library 3d print service to make sure it will work. LOVE the prints from pcbprint!!

[@moorelandhouse]

This is great! We are restoring an 1891 stone and brick mansion and all of the built in cabinets have this joint. Not many people have even heard of this joint. It really is good that now we will be able to recreate some of the joinery. We will mention you if we get some and have a video of it.

[@gregariouswoodworks1270]

I have a piece of furniture I've been restoring and giving it a face lift and it has Knapp joints . Really cool seeing the process of making it

[@joethompson11]

Totally agree with not faffing about learning a printer, good call.

[@icew0rm]

Retroactive precision is my favorite!

[@blakeshafferfilms]

I’m surprised you don’t have your own printer. It seems right up your alley. You mentioned you can’t imagine what you would use it for after this project, but oh, you will. Once you have one, that’s when your life really begins. ;) I bet you could get a free one with a sponsorship, I love my Prusa

[@chuckbailey6835]

Man I can only imagine the cool stuff you could build with a 3d printer

[@costarich8029]

The issues in the 3D print at shown at 4:22 seem way more like underlying geometry or maybe configuration problems. Most slicers are incredibly advanced and can easily slow down the extrusion rate when they slow down the x-y motion. If you can 'see' a feature in the geometry you can generally see it in the printed object. I love having a 3D printer so I can make all sorts of woodworking jigs and templates. Super handy.

[@HarmanRobotics]

I agree, both the geometry and the slicer/printer. All my printers can print the geometry just as designed, slowing down for corners/changes in direction is not an issue. Being able to handle that sort of printing problem has been solved for over a decade so there is definitely some other issue besides just the geometry. SketchUp has way too many limitations in designing 3d parts. I would highly recommend Fusion360 - no more segmented curves. When you export the model to stl for printing you can then decide how tight the mesh is. Making the required taper and smooth curves is dead simple in Fusion360. In other words, 3d printing these templates is a perfect use case for 3d printing. Any widely available 3d printer, even one several years old, can print this template exactly as designed.

[@matthiaswandel]

whatever the problem is, that same STL file produced a perfectly clean print from PCBWay. So it's the printer.

[@HarmanRobotics]

@@matthiaswandel Yes, but the printer should not have those problems. Any average 3d printer can produce results equivalent to what you received from PCBWay. I don't know what specifically caused those printing issues, the points you brought up are true, but slicers and printer software has solved those challenges many years ago.

[@thejoshmoss]

I started using SketchUp because of you back in 2014, right when I built my first 3d printer. Back then one had to do lots of learning to get printing but its not like that anymore, also the printers themselves have gotten much better and cheaper. in fact I printed some of the parts for my 16" Woodgears bandsaw and tilting router lift. I also print star knobs for all sorts of things. Someone like you could be printing successfully in less then a week for less then $500us You of all people would find a lot of unusual things to do with the technology, I truly hope you get one. An important thing I started doing to avoid that low polygon issue is increase the number of curve segments from 24 to 128 or more if the thing is big enough. to do this you select the circle tool and hold control then press + OR - to change the number of segments. 3d printers can aproxsimate much better curves then needed for this. Also, the machine doesn't stop on direction change, but the acceleration make everything shake just a little, giving artifacts called 'ringing'. he was clearly trying to get it done asap but printing slower would solve most of the bumpiness.

[@AdamEarl2]

In CNC machining, the controllers will have options to do curve smoothing or something called exact stop, where each axis will go to the position asked before moving to the next. Exact stop is useful when doing precision operations, like boring a hole or milling a slot.

[@onecarwood]

Totally can get that to print way better with a tuned slicer. 3D printing is unbelievably useful in the wood shop. You can also get one four less than $200 American dollars and with your modeling knowledge you’d be up to speed in a few days.

[@matthiaswandel]

but this was the first time I needed some small plastic bits that I couldn't just easily make from wood.

[@KipdoesStuff]

@@matthiaswandel People keep forgetting that you have about 50 revolutions around the sun and this is the first time You needed a 3d printed part. Yeah, they can be fun but we find other ways.

[@onecarwood]

@@matthiaswandel not saying you would change your mind but I thought the same thing till I got one. Although I’m not as good a woodworker as you I found many jigs and gears come out better and.more intricate than I could making from wood.

[@feinschmegga]

@@matthiaswandel how much did that one prototype cost you with shipping to Canada? Just like you I can't be bothered with the learning curve and printer purchase but think I might consider pcbway for the occasional time I need a custom 3d print. Did they provide the software to produce the STL file or can sketchup export that as well?

[@ALAPINO]

The "Good, Cheap, Fast" triangle/Venn diagram is so applicable to mould making, as much as it applies to everything. Thankfully, this is a small and simple part. Having one made up overseas is cheap and sometimes good. The older timers here call those "Canadian Tire Moulds"-- cheap and 'can' be good enough. It's not going to see loads of cycles so I'm sure it'll last them a long time.

[@cgstadler]

"You made me learn something I didn't want" Prime Matthias

[@Tomasu321]

As an early adopter of 3d printers who also primarily used sketchup for 3d modelling early on, I can say that the faceted curves from sketch up is very normal, using 24 segments on a circle is always going to be noticeable. Especially when printing a bit larger.I often used 36 or even 72 segments when going up in size. The printer does not generally "slow down" in those corners either. if anything it kinda smooths out the corners a bit. However when going as fast as you can the stiffness of your machine also comes into play. Not to mention that 3d printed parts are layered and therefore reflect light a bit strange too. Quality of plastic matters, it might not extrude entirely evenly, the plastic is hydroscopic so needs to be dryed to avoid uneven printing. In the end FDM printers are a huge compromise. speed vs quality vs dimensional accuracy. You can usually ask for 1, with effort 2

[@Tomasu321]

Come to think of it, i designed a speaker grill for some hadphones once using hex cut outs, but the size was so small they turned out circular. Reminded me of an early paper i read where they found you could even make circular screw holes using only 3 segments per hole. Since the machine can't change direction fast enough and is not stiff enough, they end up circular when printed at speed.

[@klave8511]

I use “Arc Welder” plugin for Octoprint, I believe Cura also has the plugin, to make straight lines segments into arc segments. You need a printer that supports G02 and G03 for arc movement, Marlin does in my case.

[@sleepib]

I've been using freecad. Looks like it would take about an hour to model the segmented and tapered version of this in that program, using the part design workbench. As for a 3d printer, I bought a prusa mini kit about a year ago. Since building it I haven't needed to mess with it. I'd say the accuracy is about halfway between woodworking and machined metal. Certainly better than I expected it to be.

[@l.merbecks8144]

4:45 Your observations are correct. In general for smooth surfaces the STL s trianglular faces have to be as small as possible. Moreover I tend to think, that the bumps are also a concequence of the model being defined bumpy. That however is a problem of SketchUp...

[@matthiaswandel]

same model produced clean prints from pcbway, as shown in the video

[@l.merbecks8144]

@@matthiaswandel Interesting. Those are also FDM prints?

[@scotty2307]

I really like the look of that joint. Especially with contrasting woods. One place your guy may want to call is Creative Machining in Burlington, WA. They specialize in making aluminum molds for injection molding, and have several automated CNC machines. They can also do any other type of machine work someone might need. If you need something that they have never done, they will do their best to figure it out, thus the name CREATIVE Machining. I work in purchasing at Nordic Tugs Inc, and they have gone out of their way to help us when we were in a pinch. Believe me, the last few years have been very pinchy indeed. LOL

[@multiplysixbynine]

Looks great! It sounds like you already have most of the skills for a managing a 3D printer of your own. I use OnShape CAD with a Prusa MK3S printer and being able to quickly prototype parts of all sorts has been amazingly useful in the shop. It really isn’t all that fussy. At the least I would recommend switching to a better CAD package that handles curves and parametric design!

[@mightygrom]

You are correct about the bumpy nature being caused by the number of segments you used for your circles... partially because the plastic filament (those were FFF, not resin parts) does ooze constantly, so more is deposited when the nozzle decelerates or stops... but also because the slicer software takes the segments literally and doesn't average them out. I am a fusion 360 (and autocad, corel cad, turbo cad, and some others) user... you could probably create two cylinders and Boolean subtract one from the other to get the smooth curves... it's easier in other cad programs, but there are workarounds in most software. I priced out something small on several 3d printing sites today (a balloon popping robot body), and the cost to print one was about 25% of the cost of a reasonable budget 3d printer... These days, they are much easier to build and maintain (as well as inexpensive, you can get one for around 100 usd on sale) and they only take up about 8 cubic feet. (less than 24x24, and a bit taller than 24 if you leave the filament spool on it. ) If you really don't want to buy a 3d printer, you probably have everything you need in your workshop (except for the extruder)... the earliest printer frames were made from wood and used allthread instead of leadscrews... you could use drawer slides for the different axis, and an arduino with a ramps 1.4 board to control some small nema 17 steppers... though the cheap $100 printer would assemble much faster (I build them for others in about 45 minutes now... I don't have an excuse to have more in my office) and they take minimal amounts of maintenance... just need to wipe the dust and fingerprints off before you print (a little bit of 70% ipa on a towel does a great job)

[@elijahgreenberg2634]

7:45 "Retroactive precision" I love it lol

[@jamesbrunnette4895]

“Retroactive Precision”Love it! ❤

[@andrewgalbreath2101]

I caved to peer pressure and bought a 3D printer on sale, but mostly plan on using it to aid in making with other materials, e.g. templates, guides, stuff for casting. Also it's weird to see you do an ad break, but I'm not mad about it. I'm happy knowing that you are getting paid lol

[@vega1287]

also the bumpyness comes from not having a high enogh triangle count in the stl file so the printer actually prints what it was told to

[@JebJulian]

1:54 Guess there's a reason but... Leave them square. The Radius is automatically added by the flush trim bit (Panter router follower). *Easier to draw a square recess in CAD. Radius is added automatically by machining (radius of bit).

[@JebJulian]

Unless size is scaled (is the follower also scaled?)

[@JebJulian]

Oh... better for 3d printing. Yeah nah get yah

[@MadMathMike]

7:45 "Retroactive precision" is hilarious! 😂

[@MRrwmac]

Matthias, Excellent idea in order to get Knapp-joints on variable height boards!!

[@nathansmith5229]

pcbway seems like a good sponsor for the kinds of stuff you do. hope you can work with them more in the future.

[@PCBWay]

❤

[@rjmackenzie]

I moved from Sketchup to onshape for my 3d work. I should probably move to fusion360, but I find onshape does everything I need, and it's SUPER easy to use (completely online). I found it saved me time over using sketchup, even with the learning curve.

[@_P0tat07_]

Matthias, I think you would really enjoy working with a 3D printer. I know the costs can add up between the printer, filament, nozzles, etc. but it really seems like something that would be right up your alley. You’re a really smart guy, it won’t take you long to learn how to use one. I think you would have a lot of fun using one. I really think you should reconsider.

[@jhayes1944]

As always, genius and fun. Great work. Thanks

[@grannyflatgarage7599]

Watching the high speed of the female half of the joint there's a lot of fiddling with the follower bearing, have you (or Matt Sheldon) considered a spring loaded pin so that you can quickly move it to the next part of the joint? Nice video, I always like watching prototyping happen!

[@jannebengtsson7338]

Fun fact. Knapp means button in Swedish. (not sure if it is related at all) i love these joints. And your jigg looks great, but for some reason my brain likes the first ones more because you could make just one peg. I do realize however that it would be highly unusual to only do one though 😂

[@reinholdu9909]

INVENTOR: Charles *Knapp* of Waterloo, WI in 1867

[@prayoonjaem3396]

Hello, I am Thai. I have always followed you about this amazing tool. I would like to know if it will be available for sale in Thailand or not. Another thing is that I would like to know the price.

[@D4rkS7der]

The bumpiness is caused by modeling part in Google Sketchup, I used it when I started with modeling parts. When I switched to Fusion 360 it's not bumpy anymore.

[@kahoycrafts]

Nice work! 👏 Always neat to see the stuff you come up with.

[@godfreypoon5148]

In my opinion, rapid turnaround is most of the advantage of 3D printing. If you're sending away for it, you may as well get it milled (or whatever proper process is applicable).

[@jmpattillo]

This is awesome. People have probably already suggested this, but Fusion 360 is great software to learn for this sort of thing.

[@matthiaswandel]

very expensive!

[@jmpattillo]

@@matthiaswandel Oh yeah I didn’t think about that. It is free for amateurs but I guess you would need a license to use it for a paid project. It is a really great program though. Might be worth playing around with the free hobby version and then buying a one month license whenever you need to do something fancy

[@nicolaslowman2704]

The world would be a better place if Matthias had a Prusa. I can only imagine what he would come up with. Put up a campaign where we can vote with dollars to show our support.

[@jholmessiedle]

This is the first time I find you behind the curve :) Rubbish in, rubbish out - the 3dp just reproduced what you fed it. You can't really blame the machine - operator error in this instance (it would be like using a square blade on a circular saw - gonna be a bumpy ride!!!) Love the project, but the correct sequence would be a more featured 3 modeller and then almost any 3d printer would produce the results that you wanted - yes there would be a learning curve! Like any tool the more you learn how it works, the more you get out if it - today for me it was vacuum hose adaptor time! Otherwise, fascinating video.

[@matthiaswandel]

then why did the pcbway printer produce nice clean templates where the extrusion printer made a mess? From the same STL files.

[@evanbarnes9984]

Man, I really need to build a pantorouter! I have your plans for the regular and XL, I've got to get around to that

[@MrTarfu]

If it wasn't for this video being sponsored, how long would if have taken you to make this with the tapered parts? I assume you could of used something like your adjustable router table (if you still have it) to make these parts up far faster then even having your own 3d printer would of allowed.

[@IanSmithKSP]

Matthias, I bought myself a very accurate 3D printer for making custom drain moulds for concrete sinks. I then promptly left the company. I do a lot of custom woodwork and custom furniture stuff. I’ve never found a use for the 3D printer since. They’re only good for templating as far as I can tell, and it seems like you can pretty well make your own without one. Perhaps you could use the pantorouter templates to make the actual templates?

[@jefferylebowski7355]

You switched to splitting the templates between the pins, but I have some comments wrt splitting on the pins. 1) for the prototype, maybe you could have glued the bits on first and then split the templates? but.. 2) when cutting the prototype circles, would the kerf effect the shape? could maybe offset them from the edge to compensate 3) splitting on the pins would let you insert intermediate templates to make the circles longer or other shapes, you could do some really neat stuff! also could be done with the split-between ones just to space the pins out out. I think it might be worth creating both types and an assortment of intermediates (straight, barbell, tapered/hourglass, etc)

[@opcn18]

@3:00 I see you have a carpal tunnel mallet in your shop too!

[@madman2572]

Most 3D print slicers approximate the curves as line segments and only use straight lines in the gcode. There is a plugin compatible with most popular slicers called arcweld that makes much smoother edges by using gcode commands for arcs.

[@frollard]

There is a post processor called arc-welder that can take 3d print files and convert those segmented polygon circles into true mathematical arcs that the printer will interpolate properly/smoothly.

[@T0tenkampf]

Can the templates from the metal pantorouter be used or be adapted to use on the woodgears original? I have finally come to a point in my life where I want to make one along with a BA Bandsaw and a few of the other jointery jigs. I wouldn't mind building a hybrid pantorouther if I needed to use the extruded aluminum pattern holder.

[@TrdrDAX]

Hi Matthias. If you change your standard circle setting to 96 segments in sketchup, most good slicer software will disregard the segmentation all together and you'll have perfect circles when printed. Take care! G ps: If you ever consider buying a 3D printer, learning curve is very low these days, price for a 0.1 accurate high quality secondhand PLA, ABS printer is maybe 1000$. Good slicer software is free.

[@brianoz2brn976]

@Matthias - don't you have any local maker-spaces with 3D printer capabilities that you can use for the ever-so-rare need of own 3D printing ? -thanks for another vid

[@EyeOnTheTV]

This is where having a 3d printer would be very helpful

[@AdamEarl2]

With an indexable pattern, can you make different joints line up? So a round pin, square, etc in the same setup?

[@DonBarthel]

The templates would be an ideal use for a 3D printer.

[@DonBarthel]

Oops, commented too soon.

[@86abaile]

You were correct about the cause of those bumps. There are ways to mostly tune that out of the printer, but in this case the correct thing to do would be to have made the circle have an order of magnitude more segments.

[@rogerrabt]

Cura has a nice plugin for smoothing curves: Arc Welder.

[@aristotles-lantern]

They were caused by exporting his model without enough resolution. That's why they were on the PCBWay ones too.

[@Rick-vm8bl]

I get where you're coming from with the investment in 3D printing. I started playing with them back in the RepRap days and built a few, partly as a way to learn some electronics stuff. These days though you can pick up a Prusa Mini or Mk3 and they work out of the box with no tinkering or big time investment needed, especially if you use their Prusaslicer software as it's all preconfigured for their machines. They are very much a set and forget setup, although the same can't be said for some of the lower cost alternatives like the Ender based machines. It's certainly something thats only worth investing in if you know you'll use it. A lot of my usage is for random projects and bits and bobs that are needed for something. For example my workplace needed to temporarily mount two 2u network switches vertically, so I hopped on the printables site, grabbed a model someone had shared for doing just that and printed it out. An off the shelf commercial vertical stand was several hundred dollars, the one I printed cost about 50c in PET plastic and is incredibly strong. In relation to the bumps you found on the 3d print its something I've had a few times with sketchup based models, I found that tinkercad was a bit better as it was able to work out curves and account for them in its exported stl files.I'm fairly sure you can import a sketchup model into it and do any tweaks needed then re-export. It's also free to use which is a bonus.

[@nenolabrego]

big fan of retroactive precision

[@gatekeeper84]

That pantorouter is a great machine.

[@TorbenArentoft]

"Retroactive precision". I like that term. I'm so gonna start using that 😄

[@bussergi]

The problem with 3d printed parts being bumpy often stems from using too low 3d resolution when exporting it to STL or whatever format you choose to print from. A 3d file consists of a bunch of points and vector descriptions of the polygons (Actually just triangles most of the time) between them. So the software approximates circles quite rough, as you can never perfectly make a circle using triangle.

[@matthiaswandel]

same 3d model produced a part without those bumps when I got it from pcbway

[@muchmuchmore]

Could you stain one piece of wood before assembly for better contrast?

[@kevphil4841]

This machine has so much potential, are you familiar with the arunda system? I've been thinking about trying this wedged dovetail joint with my pantorouter. Arunda claims it to be twice as strong as a m&t joint and I'm interested in finding out

[@mexlemax3307]

That's a super cool idea. I really like this box and the design. An outstanding piece of work. Can I buy this wooden box from you? Or order it from you? Thank you for showing us this.

[@GlassImpressions]

So satisfying!!!

[@hassanal-mosawi4235]

Thanks for sharing those tips and the make!

[@cuptain85]

Retroactive precision 🤣 I like it 👍

[@MCsCreations]

Brilliant work, Matthias! Really well done!!! 😃 You should definitely consider getting a 3d printer. You already know the most difficult part, that is to design the parts! The rest you find on yt. 😉 Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

[@BenRyherd]

If I didn't know better, I would've expected you to have gotten into 3D printing before you got into your experiments with Raspberry Pi's. I have only used sketchup once or twice and it almost turned me off to CAD (I'm now a design engineer who uses Solidworks all day, and sometimes Fusion360 for CAM in the evenings, so thankfully I tried other software or who knows what I'd do for a living). I feel like if you gave Fusion 360 and 3D printing a little time I think you'd really enjoy it. 3D printing is also one of those things where it's a little bit hard to think of all the use it'll get before you get one, but once you do there are so many things you can do with it (though you're significantly better with wood than most, so you might be able to match utility without it). I'd be honored to help you through 3D printing and troubleshooting if you ever want some help. An ender 3 would just about fit in a milk crate so the space commitment really isn't much either.

[@tjerkheringa937]

It is a pretty looking joint, if you use contrasting wood. But it also looks like a complex and expensive way to join. I think i will stick with my favorite method; dowels. Or i might buy a Shaper. Which would be more flexible.

[@dtec30]

Looks like a good knock together box kit

[@FinaISpartan]

That segment at 2:02 had my anxiety running. Am I missing something or is that as dangerous as it looks?

[@matthiaswandel]

I didn't know it looked dangerous. On a sled like that, the piece can't just shoot out from under the fingers.

[@Exgrmbl]

Anytime you use your hands close to a spinning thing is potentially dangerous. Given the circumstances, this is actually fairly safe cause lots of factors are controlled for.

[@LeeBreece]

You have no idea how many uses you will have for a 3d printer! Even someone with no other tools would have great use of one!! Its especially handy when a random part breaks on an appliance, power tool, etc. and instead of dealing with part numbers and ordering overpriced replacement parts you can just look up the part on thingiverse and 90% of the time someone has uploaded an stl file for it. I've even printed out parts for the interior on my truck and to replace broken pieces on my headphones.

[@ebaymagot]

fyi: fdm printers is what had the bumps that material is generally pla, abs, etc. sla printers uses resin and wouldn't have the bumps issue.

[@udolamprecht521]

did you draw it in a 1:1 ratio in sketch up? like in millimeters? try to draw it next time in meters, even with 24 poor facets and scale it down at the end.

[@matthiaswandel]

yes, I do that too, cause if stuff gets too small, it often leaves holes in the model cause it figures these small gaps aren't worth filling