Destiny 2 Lore - Let's Talk about the amazing Lore of Salvation's Edge... & my 1 issue with it.

[@cee_ves]

*guardian arrives at encounter 4* *becomes a triangle* *refuses to elaborate*

[@Opbee12]

This my Destiny 2: The Final Shape + Annual Pass, and my Final shape is circle.

[@MasterCJ117]

I can't believe Byf explained the 4th encounter using lore better than most people explaining it period.

[@Augors]

Insane.

[@SnyperMK2000JclL]

Right... the simplest i have been able to describe it is.. "We decide our own Final Shape and it's the Key to the future" encounter...

[@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong]

youtubers are really out here saying " it's so simple! here's 13 spread sheets and 20 steps to every rotation"

[@zevoh]

imagine if byf got to encounter 4 on contest he prolly wouldve figured it out in like 2 hours lol

[@mayorofmombassa9946]

“Thank you Byf” we all say in unison

[@FlexTapeApe]

@mayorofmombassa9946 And any Dissenting voices will be cast away.

[@addisynsanders3805]

Literally my exact reaction to finding out my dude posted the video

[@twilso12]

@@FlexTapeApe I’d rather be a ghost than a pos crybaby fan boy who isn’t smart enough to read between the lines

[@NickTemperistic]

That's My Name Is Byf to you sir

[@headphones_guy777]

*"We thank you Byf"

[@FR-xp8uz]

Homies would ask me to run salvation's edge, but none would edge me to salvation 😔

[@BeefPanda]

Sir this is a Wendys

[@chandrashakarkuldeep4792]

@@BeefPanda 🤣

[@johnnyhall9154]

So true

[@gen8901]

There’s a reason why a company’s “Edge” tweet was deleted

[@michaelvin8632]

Ayo… easy there, Diddy.

[@aljazslemc9569]

I feel like the lack of lore is a response to the complaints of not seeing the lore in game. Sure we don't get a lot of written lore, but we got a TON of voiced quests. Each Micah quest could've been a simple lore entry in a lore book. Instead of that, we got actually voiced work. I feel like a larger focus was put on actually giving us the lore in game. Remember when Osiris lost Sagira, one of the only ghosts most d2 players knew by name, in a lore entry?! I too would love more lore, but a large portion of the Audience will come to you, to read and interpret that lore. This expansion is one of the first, where i felt like i was discovering lore for myself around every corner. In every quest, lost sector, overthrow, lost ghost quest, traveler memory, adventure and exotic quest. When we first met Mythrax it was in an adventures missable ending, with his and Eido's story being told in lore books. Now we get a similar situation with Luzaku, and it feels like we're getting way more info told to us via conversations with these characters, as opposed to getting a lore page about Glint talking to Luzaku, we actually get to listen in. And we get a lot of that throughout this expansion. And we get a lot of our companions actually fighting alongside us, talking to us, and making sense of this place together with us. What lore we did get, is right in front of us. And the year is not through yet. I wouldn't be surprised that we'd get more witness lore throughout the year. And if i had to choose between a lore book, or the same lore being a cutscene, like the one we got from Ahsa last year, I'd go with cutscene. If we get to see memories of the witness in game, told to us, that beats the books. The books should be there to add depth and mystery. This expansion, as many said, needed to wrap things up, not set things up, set up new mysteries and lore. We have a whole year of cleanup, where we can do that. It seems like it'll be all setup. Which lends itself great to weird lore, hinting at something greater on the other side of tomorrow. That's what saved destiny for me. The lore promised a future, when the present was barely keeping me engaged. Now im happy to say that what I've gotten is more than even the lore back in d1 had me bargaining for. We're talking to the legendary Saint-14 and Osiris and Toland on a regular basis. Helping Ana Bray, and chumming it up with the Kell of kells. And its not just relegated to a lore book. If i had to guess, Bungie focused its lore on the stuff that the majority of returning players would see. And i think that it was the right call for this expansion. I am hopefull though, that as the year progresses we will get more setup and mysteries, to set up the next saga, as the first one was. But the fact that i can talk lore with randoms on LFG, shows a general, and for the most part positive move away from lore that we must consume instead of playing the game, to lore we consume through playing the game. We should just be getting more stuff, but i would understand if Bungie has a limit to how many threads they're allowed to open at a time. After all, it's their writing team, that will at some point have to weave them into a tapestry.

[@jesseritchie9282]

Based take.

[@aljazslemc9569]

@@jesseritchie9282 oh thanks☺️

[@johnathancounterman9576]

Beautifully written and agree with the take.

[@MynameisByf]

I hope that is the case. Having more front facing lore that's more accessible to people is definitely a plus. My brain can't help but think "why not both?" though. Cultivating deep mysteries in the foreground is going to be great, I absolutely agree, I hope it happens in the future. I just see each weapon as a missed opportunity if it's missing a lore tab. Plus, take a look at Vow and you see that in almost any other way, it's comparable in terms of depth to Salvation's Edge. The biggest difference is the sheer quantity of lore. I don't think I'll ever not find it baffling that we don't get more here. Absolutely respect that if it's the choice, and I respect the sentiment you're putting out here too. Witness mentioning the winnower in dialogue is 1000x better than it being in a lore tab.

[@talia_al_gabagool]

@@MynameisByfI think with Vow it had to explain more because we only saw the witness for the first time a week prior to the raid releasing. There needed to be more mysteries to be unveiled. Here we are wrapping things up and that echoes (at least should) be showing off more of this lore. The collectibles and post campaign missions has been some of the most incredible content bungie has made with regards to character development and lore.

[@erikm8373]

I think the Herald of Finality arena is kind of funny because the statue of Calus is really a "bro thinks he's on the team" moment. You got Rhulk, the very first disciple, and likely one of, if not the most powerful and devoted of them all. You have Nezarec, who was personally entrusted with the Veil. Then you have Calus, who was a Disciple for like half a year and whose only real success came from dying in a convenient location.

[@BatteredWalrus]

Oh FYI if anyone is curious the Bungie devs and artists have been putting up portfolio pieces up on the Internet so if folks want to see the WIP of animations, mechanics and concept art for TFS y'all can go wild watching it all and go give them a thanks and appreciation for all their work they put into this

[@Muhkoonga]

Any links to this? Or what to search?

[@CarlosHernandez-iu1cy]

Link ? Plz

[@justingohchyihng9460]

Try Artstation. Destiny 2 artists have always put up their portfolio there. Just search for Destiny 2

[@BatteredWalrus]

@Muhkoonga i don't have direct links on hand, but places to look are Artstation, Twitter, and LinkedIn

[@fiyesjustfi328]

@@Muhkoonga It was revealed to them in a dream.

[@wangchangbackup]

I think you're spot-on about Verity but honestly my first read was to take it even further. The Witness is combining Light and Dark to create shapes, and in Verity we demonstrate that we can also do this. Maybe not to the degree that the Witness can, but it further cements the idea that we are embracing concepts and exhibiting powers that no one - and the Witness especially - predicted we could or would. The Witness wants to distill us to one core element - the 2D shape of the Guardians being isolated. We not only reject that shape, but we embrace a greater one and literally ascend to another dimension as we escape. People love to ask "Why didn't the Witness just ___?" as they do about every raid boss but the entire point of the campaign, made explicit in Verity, is that the Witness CANNOT JUST. We are playing on its level now. That power isn't the Witness' power, it's just... a power that exists. We take it for ourselves, and THAT is what enables us to directly confront the Witness and separate it from the Traveler.

[@rcditti]

really valuable insight

[@aljazslemc9569]

Fantastic way of putting it.

[@crashlads2685]

If im being honest i wouldnt be surprised if the herald of finality was Chelchis, unnamed and twisted as the witness would want to spoil anything that served the traveller or received its bounty

[@lerthapurr7479]

Love this theory

[@eotwkdp]

A fallen that stood against a god. A good candidate to revive and take

[@GustavomendesReis-k2u]

Chelchis???

[@twilso12]

You can find a statue of human centipede Zavala with Taniks mounting him from behind in encounter 2

[@AyyFuji]

@@GustavomendesReis-k2uHouse of Stone Kell, and is the name of King’s Fall Scout Rifle, Doom of Chelchis. Defended the Fallen from the Hive when Hive attacked after The Traveler left Riis

[@RosaNagashi]

The 3 remaining lore entries are already available actually! You need to have one person in your fireteam who has beaten all 5 encounter triumphs. They can then activate 2 extra conductors on top of the 3 required for the deepsight chest. Completing the raid with all 5 conductors correctly activated drops both a raid mod and an additional piece of lore, which is how you can obtain the final 3 lore entries.

[@jellybackjoe]

In the context of your interpretation of Verity, my favorite detail is the fact that the Witness has assigned us a 2D shape and we make a 3D shape. Like, not only are we just blatantly flipping off the Witness by making “whatever it didn’t choose for us”, but we are refusing to be defined as static. It’s like a display of our complexity.

[@topheftyr533]

The Witness: "I am going to save every living thing from the pain and uncertainty of existence by severely harming them and forcing them to do what I say." The witness would make for a great politician.

[@redfalcon8062]

Only problem with that is that we wouldn't have the freedom of choice.

[@myguy2792]

@@redfalcon8062 *illusion of choice

[@Opbee12]

@@redfalcon8062 So... A politician?

[@Omega_speed]

I realize that the goals of the witness are entirely selfish. It doesn’t give a shit about us any more than what we represent to the witness: a purpose. That’s all it wants. As the precursors, they felt they needed purpose from the traveler. And when that failed, it decided to become the being they wanted the traveler to be. A god

[@shyataroo]

One other neat detail of the Voice Acting that I did not see you go over: It's voice changed after you cut out some of the dissenters, and changes further in excision. Also, since we killed the witness with a literal sword, didn't we just further the darkness' sword logic. That which CAN die MUST die.

[@zen4ever3]

I think that’s just the witness being more and more mad.

[@speenta4879]

Not necessarily we killed the witness because it posed a threat to us not because it could die, you could argue that we imposed our ideals on the witness therefor we sharpened our ideal and furthered the logic but that is debatable.

[@gigachadtheslumpgod6727]

sometimes I wish the herald of Finality boss was replaced with another disciple that we've never heard of before. I always assumed that there were a lot more disciples than we knew about even after meeting Rhulk, Nezarec, and Calus. Not having another disciple in the raid kinda upsets me but it still slaps hard regardless, so I'll gladly take what I can get.

[@Bestow3000]

Fr I was upset that it's a random Fallen. I don't care if is Chelchisnor some legendary Fallen. It's still an Eliksini. I would love to have another Disciple with a unique design for the last Light vs Dark raid ever to end this on a good note. But it's just a Taken captain.

[@Opbee12]

I feel like it should have been Taniks, like besides all the jokes, I feel it would be very fitting for it to be Taniks.

[@fysy9989]

Before season of the witch and the announcement of episodes I was wondering if Xivu Arath would become a raid boss before the witness

[@knickiicht]

When the main issue is that there aren't enough lore tabs, Destiny is in a good olace

[@cathef117]

A peak isn't good because all that can exist after is a descent

[@lego1999100]

Encounter 4 be like The Witness: “you’re a square” Guardians: “Fuck you witness, we ball! ⚽️🏀”

[@SymbioteMullet]

Witness: The triangle shape goes in the triangle hole. Guardians: THE SQUARE HOLE!

[@mono6158]

The witness: "you're a circle" Guardian: "Nuh uh" Witness: "Fym 'nu uh'?!"

[@acgearsandarms1343]

All these squares make a circle. It doesn’t bother the Witness. It bothers it a lot and THAT ONE’S STILL GREEN!

[@JM1992]

@@acgearsandarms1343”let it go witness, you got bigger things to worry”

[@Opbee12]

@@JM1992 Like the 500 rockets

[@joshuamagruder2241]

I like to think the Herald is actually Chelchis. We know chelchis was the greatest Kell, and probably the most valiant of the eliksni warriors. Its not hard to imagine that the witness maybe pulled the same stuff with him that he pulled with us, offering us godhood above the final shape. Maybe Chelchis actually took the deal, and became the witnesses herald of finality.

[@redfalcon8062]

It probably is Chelchis. It couldn't be Taniks cause he doesn't really look like em. And by reading the gun and the Adept gun's lore, it seems like Chelchis was also on Riis as well when the Traveler left. I knew he stood up to Oryx I think. And the Adept version quote says "The Hunger Comes." It feels like he was willing to give up his life in search for power or something.

[@hammyboi891]

Considering he’s half taken, it might have not been a willing choice

[@joshuamagruder2241]

@@hammyboi891 only half of him his. A lot like we see Sloane in season of the deep. Might be something to that

[@ringomandingo1015]

Bruh where is everyone getting Chelchis from tf? The Hive literally eat Light and have most likely eaten him, not even bothering to take him since he was desperately searching for the Great Machine (Weakness).

[@ItsDobbie]

@@ringomandingo1015Bro, name ONE other notable Eliksni that makes sense. I’ll wait. Stop repeating the same comment.

[@MrJacoolest]

I'm not overly concerned with the steady decrease in lore. Lore is usually about setting up mysteries for a subsequent payout in the narrative. Final Shape was the payout. The episodes are reportedly about putting more mysteries in. So I would expect to see a renewed focus on lore as we enter the next saga.

[@skylerfreeman1173]

Byf when the saga is ending: 😭"where da lore"

[@shawnbarron2144]

byf angrily: “WHY ARE YOU WATCHING THIS!? Me: “because I don’t have a fireteam to run the raid🥺”

[@trav3linglemon662]

Same. I cracked and said I'll watch this while finishing my prep for the new ffxiv expansion

[@nickgrout2502]

Same, friend. Same...

[@ch35tburnzzz84]

Same

[@Dane4323]

same since i just got back into the game seems like no one wants to play with me lol

[@ch35tburnzzz84]

@@Dane4323 definitely feel that

[@ps5426]

The revelation of what the Monolith is, is such a LOTR reference and I love it.

[@SymbioteMullet]

It's a LOTR reference? That's got to be something silmarillion, could you explain please?

[@wolfrosefrost5475]

Eye of Sauron

[@ps5426]

@@wolfrosefrost5475 This

[@ps5426]

@@SymbioteMullet the tower of Barad-dûr

[@ps5426]

@Tu57ht now that you say it, I do remember that.

[@MoonlitDhampir]

I understand that you wanted more lore stuff from Salvations Edge but for the raids you mentioned, Vow and Last Wish, there were still things to flesh out with these characters and things. Salvations Edge is a race to excise the Witness from the Travelers heart. This isn't an extra mystery or story. This raid is part of the story and there isn't as much to expound upon. We're getting more story IN the game which is a GOOD thing.

[@raysolo137]

Byf are you going to do one raid run with bunch of content creators and teach lore as you go on? Aztecross said he's down for one run if you are

[@devynlich00]

The only way I could see him doing that is once everybody gets the actual mechanics down and can do it concisely within a couple of attempts

[@MynameisByf]

I normally do a run with Gigz and T1… maybe I should expand the crew?

[@weaklyxonin]

@@MynameisByfplease do, sir. We’d all appreciate a guided raid tour!

[@RiloTribez]

A raid lore guide with Cross would be a blessing! I usually cant watch streams cause of time, but I would make time to watch that stream.

[@Loram117]

That would be a nice serie for all raids

[@theroadstopshere]

I could gush all day about Verity and what an incredible encounter it is, and equally so about all the missed opportunities for lore and tying off (or expanding on) questions in the raid itself, so it brings me no end of satisfaction to hear a lot of what I've been thinking reflected in Byf's thoughts. But as a result of that, I'm somewhat left without much to contribute as a comment unless I wanted to get super specific and wordy about it. So instead, I'll just say that if the shape my guardian holds in Verity is indicative of my Final Shape, then given my diet and habits since the expansion dropped I'd say my final shape being a sphere is pretty fitting

[@RollMeAFat1]

34:38 god the word cocytus gives me a blast from the past, that was such a good weapon from D1

[@anonymousperson1142]

Kinda fitting that the First Knife would be a literal tower impaled into the Pale Heart's geography. Just makes me think how deep its foundation pushes below where we start.

[@paragonflash8937]

So wait the entire raid is just us helping the Witness's geometry homework from Ms winnower's class

[@jesseritchie9282]

Mister to you.

[@ringomandingo1015]

@@jesseritchie9282Accidentally calling the male teacher “Mom”

[@Opbee12]

"Yeah the triangle goes there in the triangle hole"

[@jesseritchie9282]

@@Opbee12 "That's right it goes in the square"!

[@Sta_cotto]

"The Great box of Dunkies" I fucking lost it right there

[@IvoryTempestCandleOfStories]

My youtube subtitles translated that to "The Great box of Donkeys". Dunkies made much more sense.

[@MrWiggz69]

'Dunkies' is slang for condoms where I'm from so...yeah.

[@Jimtheneals]

When it comes to lore, Bungie point blank said about 3 years ago they were getting away from telling the story through the lore and telling it in game. So they said point blank this was going to happen.

[@frozi1541]

This is just like Gorbino's Quest. This is the Gorbino's Quest of Salvation's Edge.

[@Gr4veM1nd]

... was that... a Cruelty Squad reference?

[@frozi1541]

@@Gr4veM1nd yes!

[@adrianramirez4129]

Based Cruelty Squad reference

[@legioning]

the worlds ONLY video game!

[@ALTVRA]

A really cool thing I noticed which no one else has really commented on, the Witness / the Monolith is absolutely meant to resemble the Tower of Babel, check out Pieter Bruegel's paintings as reference. Given all of the themes with the Witness, this design is so appropriate and well thought out. Love the design of the raid.

[@queencrimson4750]

This has extra connotations with how the echoes are likely fragments of the witness, this comment has the potential to age like wine depending on how the episodes go.

[@topkek3927]

To be honest, i don't even have the time to pay attention to the Lore in game, that's why i especially appreciate people like you Byf. Thanks to you i feel even more immersed in Destinys universe, and have even more fun playing the game. People that ignore the lore completely are missing out big time in my opinion.

[@dreammech_test1]

I love the dichotomy of the interior of the traveler vs the witness

[@ihdiinnotime]

47:00 Those white things bursting out of the Witness when you kill him are the entities that make up the Witness, 3 of them are the things that escaped the traveller, One is on Nessus now after taking a new form.

[@63Limar]

Are these precursor individual minds?

[@BerenElendilAPGaming]

That would explain why the Witness switches from "We" to "I" at the very end...

[@elijahford3696]

Anybody play Dark Souls 2? If you know what happened to that confounded quintessence of humanity, then you might just have an idea where we're going.

[@josiahjoestar]

@@elijahford3696 ds2 goes hard

[@summerrose7650]

My favorite part about this raid is that you're actively preventing the end of the universe as we know it. Every encounter, every incision into the witnesses plan gives you just a tiny bit more time as we hurriedly scramble to the final encounter. It's desperate, you feel like when you wipe it isn't just you and your fireteam being taken out. I love it.

[@elmoandicecube6779]

My personal favourite fan theory on the herald is he’s the abhorrent left overs of the kell of the house of stone chelchis. Would be cool ( and tragic ) if for he’s efforts against the witness and oryx and the price he paid for ensuring the eliksni escaped riis is an eternal life of solitude to the enemy of the great machine.

[@wikipediabrown6151]

I like that the 4th encounter is so literal. It's almost like The Traveler is trying to show us how it thinks. "Don't over think it and try to find meaning in me. I'm just a being that's trying to live, sort out your own shape and meaning." It's also interesting that it's a literal representation of Plato's Cave.

[@Julio321G]

I believe the reason there’s less lore is because of the community complaining that too much of it is buried in readings. That it should be shown in more dialogue and cutscenes. Now that we have more of that, we should Go backwards?

[@jackmack4181]

I like to imagine each of the armor pieces come from a different descenters voice

[@cheezyguy7119]

In the campaign mission where we go to where they destroyed themselves, when the witness or as someone else put it, an illusion of it arrives, we can still see the witnesses face in the mess of floating shapes behind the 'illusion' just like how its fave appeared in the storm column of shapes in the first mission of the campaign.

[@cheezyguy7119]

I was mentioning this as a support to the witness being the monolith, someone mentioned it in a comment of a different video that i completely forgot about, but its cool to think that the visage of it we see is pretty much the actual size of its face.

[@starwatcherusa]

Never seen such a brilliant explanation of the importance of the lore. It reminds me when Destiny's universe was at a slower pace with less dire circumstances, and those inklings of what was to come kept me invested because of knowing what threats were out there. Great video Byf!

[@prestonphillips473]

I understand that "lore tabs on armor and guns" is important to Byf, but I would MUCH rather have lore explained in game, in order, while playing. And not something that I have to read out of order from many different items, then later built on with other items from other expansions. I like the idea of lore books taking over this aspect of story telling. We can get complete stories and tales of characters/locations/weapons/races/etc all in one location and in order. Destiny just needs a Library/Reliquary/House of Curiosities built in the tower. Eido, Fenchurch and Spider can maintain it and then give bounties to the player to go obtain mysterious items or scout locations to gain more lore pages or library decorations or golden age tech etc. An in-game place where you can continue to learn about the story or revisit events from past seasons or cutscenes. Or just fun side stories from the past or Fenchurch's fireteam missions or old missions from Eris, Saladin or Saint. The lore tabs were carry overs from Grimwore cards which as we all know now are in response to a massive scramble when the original story was scrapped and massively changed before the game was released which is why we got "no time to explain" and characters with no names like The Speaker, The Stranger, The Queen (Mara) we had factions to pick with no purpose or reason to pick one over another, and to get any information on them you had to stop playing the game and go on Bungie's website to read the random pieces of what you collected. It was very bad, it's the "Collapse" of Destiny's lore history. They are fun to read, but there are much better ways to have story in the game and I would guess MOST players don't bother reading lore tabs and more people at least read the lore books.

[@aljazslemc9569]

Its especially funny when you look at the sheer amount of stuff we get to hear in The final shape. So many characters, perspectives. The Micah quests resisting old content with new bits of context and clues to future stories... and not once did i have to go to orbit and read 10 pages of a book to get those bits of information. Little interactions between Savathun and everyone, or Luzaku the others. Last season we got a lore tab of Toland arguing at Eris, this expansion we got voiced conversations between a friendly lucent hive, and friendly fallen. And we got to fight alongside the vanguard and Savathun, as we defeated the witness. If we had to lose a lore tab of how Caitl and Mythrax fought through a bunch of enemies, in order to get to fight alongside them in the game, that wad 100% the better choice. And the best part, we can always get a piece of lore further down the line, that can elaborate on parts of that battle, without the risk of it getting datamined and spoiled before the event happened. I feel like the books are an easy way to add lore into the story, when voice talent would be to pricey or time consuming. It feels like the final shape had tons of voice work. Same with warlords ruin. On the other hand, onslaught and into the light, had no voice work, and a ton of lore, in large part due to it being filler, and the lore being extremely easy to just write into the lore tab and slap on. The fact that we didn't get a bunch of random filler on the armor, about the witness' favourite Nietzsche book, makes me think that rather than running out of stuff to talk about the witness and giving us some filler, they may be saving things for the future, and avoiding writing things in, that could prove hard to retcon later, if plans change.

[@benballard6132]

Amen Byf. Well said. Lore has kept me engaged wayyy past when I should've left

[@rileyusher8786]

I don't play Destiny anymore but I love these videos, I watch them every time they come out, I love the lore and ilove how enthusiastic you are! I stopped playing just around the end of Scarlet Keep just after the sun setting of wepons happened (my opinion took a 180 on that fast after it happened and i realized what a grind it had become). Anyways though i just really wanted to say thank you for keeping me connected to a game i loved and the lore i love yo hear about =)

[@tommysagemar]

I got chills when you discussed the 4th encounter!

[@ScrawnyClownSnatch]

Byf: "I wish I could stay here forever" Witness: "THAT IS LITERALLY SOMETHING I COULD HAVE DONE, BUT NOOOO, YOU KILLED ME"

[@Truds]

Didn’t know I need a Byf guide for the 4th Encounter, until I did!

[@johnb3587]

A bit I found neat about some of the IRL “lore” of the raid, Parabellum being the team to clear it first punching the hole for the rest of us, with Parabellum meaning “prepare for war” you couldn’t write a better finale

[@nitrozeus3288]

Always a spectacular lore vid as usual byf! When you put into the perspective of how brutal the witness broke the traveler, it definitely had me look at a in a sense of a human body where say a parasite has eaten up everything that a human is and left with only is veins and nerves. That is how i imagine how the traveller must be feeling. Doing the into the darkness (Micah-10 Ghost rescue missions) we are healing the traveler in a sense but it will feel like a millenia for the traveller to be fully healed

[@WebofHope]

Verity is my favorite encounter, not for the shapes but for the bit with the team 'dying' and having to be revived by your team *knowing both you and your ghost*. it's the witness attempting to erase us, excise us like the dissenters, from the universe's final shape, but the entire point of the encounter is essentially each of the fireteam speaking each other's True Names into the universe and Verifying our existences as immutable facts. That's why it's called Verity. We're establishing each others true selves so that the Witness cannot simply undo us It's a big thing in egyptian and fae mythologies, and it's essentially how Oryx called his sisters back from death that one time: Through action, embody and establish someone else's identity, their whole and complete self, and speak that pure True Name into being. But because we are as guardians essentially a duality, both lightbearer and ghost, we have to know both and establish both as a singular thing.

[@TheWagn156]

I finally got back in the raid after an utter defeat during contest (also failed at 2nd encounter). My team got to 4th encounter and were explaining it to me. I had watched some guides so I kinda got the gist of it, and after a while I understood what both teams were trying to accomplish. Watching your summary of the encounter here actually helped my understanding of the mechanics a lot. Thanks Mr Byf.

[@anotherkenlon]

I have watched footage from raid teams and not quite gotten what's supposed to be happening in Verity. Your lore-based explanation made it suddenly clear and obvious. Bravo, Bungie writers - excellent gameplay/lore integration.

[@BntyNoakes]

the fact you pointed out the herald's bottom half is taken. makes me certain its taniks considering he lost his bottom half in deepstone when fusing with the shank

[@cuzzin9577]

Speaking of the voice acting. My fire team was on the last encounter for 7 hours. We heard so many different voice lines before I started to notice repeats it really was impressive. And to the lore tabs I literally said the same thing to my fireteam about how sad I was there was not lore on the sword or the pulse.

[@justcallmeness]

I believe the lore tabs were delayed on some gear. I'm sure we'll get something later

[@Tempest_1211]

“You want me to be a square witness, fine I’ll be a cone”

[@thunder5026]

Bungie artist posted concept art earlier today and yeah, the witness is the entire monolith. I love how terrifying that really is

[@Doggy-B]

If there us one person who knows whether or not we need more lore, it is Byf. GG my dude, thank you for taking us through this 10 year epic as loremaster. Looking forward to more and hopefully the team at bungie hear your counsel and indeed increase the amount of lore for the road ahead.

[@Everrrrr]

Byf, as a casual player of the game I think its really important to take your message from the last 15mins and make that its own video. Its too important to not be blasted out into the community for more eyes and ears to see. Thank you for your content.

[@jackula4903]

I love how the witness is basically a cult that has merged into one being

[@nickgrout2502]

The Precursors drank the darkness koolaid

[@life-destiny1196]

@@nickgrout2502 RIP Osiris soon I guess. (Though, more seriously, if anything it sounds like Misraaks might be the one feeling ill effects from the events of Plunder.)

[@MrDumbRodent]

I loved encounter 5, but your mention of wishing there was more to it got me thinking. It would have been cool if the Final Stand phase began with the fireteam needing to grab the blades of light that appear in Excision and use those to fully sever the hands that have been used for mechanics, and then proceed to center for a final DPS push now that the Witness had been physically cut off from the Traveler. Great video as always. Glad you enjoyed the raid!

[@CyanGemini]

If I remember right, there was art concept work of the Witness that was shown off long ago in I think Witch Queen. And it had a guardian for scale. I think this was a great detail and I'm happy they kept that

[@vekzforce8820]

I haven’t been able to watch anything about the raid but knew Byf would make a video on the lore, and he dropped it on my lunch break hell yea

[@VenonXeno123]

Hey, Byf. This is completely different but Kelgorath is back as a boss in an over throw. Part of the overthrow over next to the Dam with the subjugators. He is a tier two or three boss fight in the bottom left corner of the map next to the Dam. Thought you want to know.

[@supergatorhator]

I don't think many were arguing the Witness is lying in Salvation's Edge when it said it wasn't the Winnower, but was the first knife. What myself and others were arguing was that the line wasn't intended to literally mean "the Unveiling is literal, the Winnower exists and made me, and this physical being does not control me". The Unveiling lorebook itself explicitly states that the story is a parable (a fictional story designed to relay an underlying message), and also directly states that the gardener and winnower do not exist except as basic fundamental forces, saying they were "as bodiless and inevitable as the primes". The Unveiling lore book was also provided to us by the Witness, but doesn't seem to be written from the Witness' perspective. So, here's the crazy part. I think that the Witness wrote the Unveiling as its way of outlining its ideology to us in a way that we can understand and that echoes our way of thinking. The way the story unfolds feels like it would fit in any religious text out there - the impossible "time before time", the epic battle between gods, etc. Then we have the other parts of the lore book that aren't trying to appeal to the religious elements of our history - things like the chapter on the gene that tells cells to self-destruct not being evil, and how the darkness/winnower is no more evil than that gene is. This seems to appeal to those that wouldn't find a religious text compelling, and instead appeals to the scientific/philosophical parts of the human mind. Unveiling was tailored to these traits that are seemingly specific to humanity because it IS our Books of Sorrow. The Witness provided hive with the book of sorrow, and the idea of the sword logic, but when he talks about it in the final shape, it's with disdain - he specifically calls the sword logic a childish notion and that their obsession with it that ruined the hive. In the same way Unveiling is meant to appeal to our psychology, the books of sorrow and overall idea of the sword logic was the way that the Witness conceptualized its ideology and made it digestible by appealing to pre-existing ideas or the zeitgeist of the Krill, but ended up inadvertently distorting their entire culture well beyond what was intended. All of this is to say, Unveiling is not literal, and was intended to communicate ideology in a way that would have relevance and resonate with humans. I don't think that the Witness was attempting to convey that the Winnower was real when it said it wasn't the Winnower, but the first knife. I think it was trying to explain by referencing the established theology it had given us - it isn't the cosmic force that ends life and brings order, it is the result of conflict between light and dark and was forged from the universe trying to bring order back to itself after the traveler was trying to make it "disordered" by uplifting life beyond what it should naturally be able to achieve.

[@toontownmanic07]

I like how in Verity, our poses in the Shadow Realm are showing off our Final Shapes - since we're Guardians and we like showing off our new guns and achievements.

[@CloneMalone]

I love how different the Herald Finality along with the Caretaker in Vow look from their unpyramidified counterparts. I'd love to see that kind of thing more for minor bosses in raids and maybe even dungeon bosses.

[@Bloopel720]

I feel like I understand you when you talk about the knife bit in the witness fight. I feel like we as guardians deserved a RULES OF NATURE moment where we band together with a knife of resonance and sever the witness from the monolith

[@Gr4veM1nd]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was going to be a mechanic at some point. Using a sword relic or something to sever the Witness' connection it was making to the Traveler or something. Still a fun fight though.

[@hydrocn]

That was a very good explaination of verity in lore terms, it makes so much sense

[@Berry_Garden]

I would like to add a slight interpretation to Verity that adds on to the idea that we are choosing our own shape. Just a neat little thing I found. The outside is host to the more complex 3d shapes, while the witness's idea of you in the shadow realm is a simple 2d shape. Just a nice little nod to the idea that the Witness/Winnower value simplicity over the changing complexity the Traveler/Gardener does. The on the nose symbolism in that encounter is genius.

[@Quizzoli]

I was just looking at my screensaver I took from the salvations edge second encounter at the top of one of the towers. Those shelves holding the statues LOOK LIKE RIBS OMG

[@VoidCommander808]

Given that "the Herald of Finality" has a physical body from the waist up, and his legs are Taken, I'd say its more than fair to assume this is Taniks, since his legs were removed in Deep Stone Crypt in favor of shank-adjacent transportation.

[@enexie_nxe]

Taniks has a very different and very recognizable helmet though

[@SymbioteMullet]

We've seen half-taken things before, and the legs/lower half being taken is quite common. I don't think we've seen taken-ness used as prosthesis before, but it would fit with how being Taken "cuts away your weaknesses"

[@rainingdeathx3368]

It currently thought that the herald of finality is chelchis, the kell of stone. He 1v1'd oryx to give all of the other fallen enough time to escape. What happened to him isnt known. The herald of finality doesnt look anything like taniks.

[@ringomandingo1015]

@@enexie_nxenot to mention we have his head as a trophy on Europa

[@ringomandingo1015]

@@rainingdeathx3368Where are you getting that 1v1 thing from?

[@lmlagg]

Some cool details I found: The shadows in Verity feel like a nod to the shifting class symbols you'll see when the game is loading (either in the bottom right or center of your screen) which Ive possible spent days of my lifetime watching. When you first see the monolith, it is obscured by a hologram of the Witness. In the final mission, this occurs again but only in the glass shards that cover your apparent view of the monolith. These kind a tease at the reveal that they are one and the same (beyond the fact that the monolith looks like the witness generally)

[@somahagymasy5341]

Great video as always Byf! In my opinion the declining number or written lore entries year by year is an answer to the mass complaints from the community that they wanted more in-game storytelling as opposed to having to read dozens of pages of vague text up to interpretation more often than not. Your point is valid, however, the lore tabs being investments for future storytelling. But at the same time, the amount of in-game dialogue we got might just be the transition from witten lore to in-game storytelling. Which is a W for most.

[@Livan-yuruikami]

I'm gonna need to rewatch the video necause of this but thank you byf for having such a calming voice, I slept so fucking well I tough I was dead when I woke up

[@coolking4715]

For me, the Winnower definitely makes more sense now and it is good that they finally confirmed it. My problem with it is the problem of making it a villain or not, if they do, this saga has no reason to end. If they don't, what is the point of making it real? My question is what is it, is it the darkness in general? That would make sense since the darkness made the witness, aka, it clutched the first knife when the witness was created through the dark. Same way the Traveler spread out the ghosts to make us. I would rather they make it a god which makes different powers in the universe to enact its goal of destroying the Traveler. Granting darkness to enemies we have to fight just continues the light and dark saga.

[@jxb679]

The last 3 lore unlocks come from the "mod runs" After beating every triumph challenge (static ones) you can use the 2nd and 4th rooms that we thought were for the red border runs, and use the same symbols from the column to activate them. As long as 1 person has all triumphs then you can do it for everyone. Got the 6th unlock today as proof.

[@jj_grabes]

“You want me to be a square, Witness? Fine, I’ll be a cone” has no right to go as hard as it does.

[@rock4ever812]

Your read on the decreasing amount of lore tabs is interesting and I personally hadn't picked up on it so I'm glad to be aware. I think a few things can make some sense of this and I'd be curious to know what you think: 1) some of what used to be in lore tabs is now present in the actual playing of the game (more voice lines for example) 2) potentially less background context is needed at this particular point in the narrative because we're paying off story beats and answering questions whereas in the past we might have been building more exposition 3) bungie could be putting less into lore tabs specifically if they're seeing that people don't interact with them as much as they'd like. I'm not saying any of this stops the NEED for lore tabs. I'm with you and would like to see more. But I can see any of these points be their justification.

[@Noblesix84]

I don't care what anyone says, that's just Taken/Dreaded Tankis. He was here from our early days and he's here at our end.

[@liquidrufus]

Truly the alpha and omega.

[@VGBrothers]

It's even funnier when you think about what Byf and Unknown Player were discussing in Creator Chat 6 about the raid in the Pyramid vessel in the Throne World before Witch Queen launched. "Could be Taniks again! Taniks, but with Darkness!"

[@usaflagraybans]

I actually believe that. Keep in mind that at the end of the Deep Stone Crypt, Taniks was fused to a shank to create Taniks the Abomination. The Herald’s lower half does look fairly mechanical, even though it’s taken while the top half could be explained that the process of turning something into a dread turns inorganic material into organic material. As Byf says, the dread have to give themselves to be turned into a dread. Taniks’ top half could have willingly given itself to the dread process while his bottom half had to be taken.

[@happypie1362]

Im just saying, i saw a familiar head shape similar to taniks in the fikrul teaser, and fikrul bringing back taniks as one of his vampire lords would thematically also be pretty sick

[@Noblesix84]

@@happypie1362 I'll admit that would be a pretty cool way of bringing back Taniks. Before it was plot armor that saved him now it's him literally being undead.

[@eiriksundby]

they actually just released a whole lot of Concept art for the Witness's Raid form on the various Bungie Artists' Artstation profiles. I reccomend checking it out. some of those concept are wild, and this idea of it being the monolith comes through even clearer in some of them.

[@raygotz1069]

I wanted to know about the precursors and what caused them to turn to the winnower. More about their civilization

[@robert2german]

In case Byf hasn’t yet heard, the ship Nacre has been updated with a lore tab, and the implications are… interesting.

[@wolfrosefrost5475]

I can see the final encounter having an additional pantheon mechanic for Master where we take the staffs of the subjugators as relics and use them to cut at the witness with Darkness.

[@drakeramsey9514]

The Witness transforming at the end of the campaign and then the raid itself reminded me of Emperor Ganishka from Berserk, and the "blood elevators" from Devil May Cry 5 climbing up to fight Urizen.

[@Grayves_X]

I think it's very interesting how much music and sound has been mentioned since TFS launched. Hoping it leads to more coming out about Resonance and I'd love for the sound heard at the light house when guardians die to tie into it.

[@tornap4rt]

The Light Kamehameha to the Witness’s chest at the end of ALL of this was quite literally the cherry on top.

[@Mr5111111]

But the traveler itself did this to the witness in light fall! To no effect! Right!

[@legioning]

@@Mr5111111 traveler BLAST

[@TheBancast]

Re: Encounter 1 mechanics - I think that dunking resonance into the resonance dunk box is postponing the final shape because resonance is keeping the shape from forming. Like if something is trying to form, shaking it will disturb it. So the players are literally postponing the final shape by creating resonance within the witness.

[@kakkaohjus]

I think the way the Herald of Finality was made is that it started as a Taken Fallen that was then augmented with Light to form the Dread bits on it.

[@dropzxfuzzion2430]

Never been so quick to see a Byf video Love your content, keep up the awesome work🤌🏻

[@chi_pa_pa]

Bungie totally took notes from the PS4 game "Journey" when designing the pale heart destination and the Witness Monolith! It's super cool. If you've ever played that game, you'll know what I mean. Throughout your whole journey that shining mountain grows closer and closer as you make your way to it; growing taller and more imposing as you approach, and giving you a subconscious sense of progression and climax as you eventually make your way to the top. It's your destination and ultimate goal, symbolically and literally. It's an amazing demonstration of visual and environmental design.

[@merilynnshark6144]

To be fair, the Lore of the game before Shadowkeep was all in the lore tabs and such. But, they started putting more and more and more into the actual campaigns and quests and into the actual game itself.

[@DTheWhiteWolfD]

See my team assumed that verity is actually the heart at the centre of the traveller being torn apart by the witness

[@XxDeathxX509]

It was YOUR video that got me into this game, specifically the books of sorrow you described way back when you made the full story of destiny from the beginning to shadowkeep. I know there are people who don’t care about lore but lore brings people to destiny, lore keeps the game alive. In lightfall when the lore was quite literally dying, my fireteam quit the game. I hope their efforts are going towards more voice acting bc there has been an uptick in that, but I totally agree with the statement “why not both”?

[@105thBattalion]

for encounter 2, I think we’ve seen this guy before: Chelchis, the Kell of House Stone. He most famously faced Oryx during the Whirlwind and was presumably Taken after noticing the Traveler fleeing.

[@commander_swift3765]

24:37 all I can think of is Adam Savage going "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

[@lyexer]

Didnt see anyone writing about it so here goes - the last three Lore Entries arent hidden in the raid. You get them as a reward for activating the secret Red Chest and the two additonal rooms and killing the final boss. You can only activate the two additonal room once you have done all encounter challenges. This also rewards one of the raid mods. I have only done this once this week so I'm not sure if its farmable or not.

[@kylesmith8602]

Imagine, the precursors species were the first pieces of the gardeners flower game, but the winnower took that piece, thus making the witness (The First Knife)

[@likwid_smoke]

@kylesmith8602 the lore on this has already been established. The witness is an amalgamation of its species. The winnower did not create them. The precursors used the veil to become one & upon doing so they claimed to be the first knife.

[@Mr5111111]

I think it was just one of the precursors that was originally corrupted by darkness at the moment the traveller emerged and that led to them all being systematically assimilated into one being resulting in the witness! Like most diseases of the mind it starts with just one seed! Hence the witness reverting to saying I don't understand at it's defeat! The single mind that was originally corrupted being singled out and separated from the collective it had overwhelmed haha I waffle but yeah the witness was the first politician 😅

[@Gum-3k]

Byf is my favorite person in the d2 community.

[@Derbearian]

The Fact that The Witness Literally is the Raid, Is so damned cool Byf.

[@saynotololi]

I feel like there is so many more questions than answers. And the “answers” we get gives more questions.

[@theshadowdoctor5500]

as a solo player who will never be able to raid, I enjoy these type of videos so I can enjoy the raids with others.

[@johnnyhall9154]

It's a shame you won't. Some of the best content in any game are in the Raids

[@tylerrandall05]

Theres nothing stopping you from raiding

[@Dynasty1818]

Depending on hardware played on, not everyone has a mic. Some have social anxiety. And the worst part is community toxicity - old raid? You should know every mechanic by now. New raid? Not interested in carrying someone who has no clue, must have 5+ completions, DM raid report or no invite etc etc. People want loot as quick as possible.

[@tylerrandall05]

@@Dynasty1818 the mass majority of players dont care about people being new. They care about people expecting a carry and do not stand for it. It is not hard to find a team to help if youre willing to accept the help and not be an arrogant douchebag like most 'new players' are nowadays. At the same time, a base understanding of mechanics are normally expected to be known, as there are literally thousands of guides on every raid

[@Harrison-zc3hu]

@tylerrandall05 the one thing that should stop most people from salvations edge is the DOG SHIT they disguised as armor and weapons, besides the bow