Destiny 2 Lore - The Origins of The Witness Revealed at last. The Traveler's Betrayal?

[@potatus1579]

Something I found interesting is that it now make sense why the witness knows about stasis but never discovered strand. The progenitors always looked to control things, which is a main aspect of stasis, while strand is more of letting things happen, going with the flow and not trying to control it

[@Shisui805]

this literally makes so much sense wtf

[@ImaginArt24]

I thought they were talking about mercury being a garden world with his gun?

[@potatus1579]

@@ImaginArt24 yeah, my comment is unrelated to what was covered in the video, and more related to the witness and the cutscene

[@joshfeldman7586]

Bungie : write that down write that down

[@raven-0621]

and in a Plunder dialogue Eris says "The Darkness moves just beneath its skin. Do you feel it? It Ruptures. Flows. Envelops." if Ruptures is about Stasis and Flows is about Strand, then The Witness should know about the third Darkness form since it Envelops, which could also be a form of control.

[@Lynch2507]

I don't think the horror of the Witness sunk in until that reveal in the cutscene where all the fucked up statues we've seen in the pyramids are the remains of the civilization the Witness once was. The Black Fleet is an literal armada of gravestones and that is just beyond cool and horrifying.

[@Boomer-12347]

There are an awful lot of urns

[@syu9572]

@@Boomer-12347 oh dear god you are right LOL

[@raven-0621]

​@@Boomer-12347holy shit fr

[@nocturnal7474]

You mean flying mausoleums

[@awesomeguy9513]

Self driving hearses

[@Slim-yu1ud]

The fact that the infinite forest could be an imperfect vex recreation of the supposed time warp inside the traveler is something I never would’ve guessed

[@SymbioteMullet]

fits with them trying to make a pirate copy of the veil though.

[@soulsurvivor8293]

​@@SymbioteMulletOne shunned Vex Sect attempting to recreate the Veil and Worshipping the Witness. In the totality of the Vex collective, they are the extreme fringe outliers and a relatively new development in the history of the Vex. Simulations and layering them over sections of space time is essentially the main manner the Vex have always operated. My personal spinfoil hat theory is that the Vex, specifically the semiorganic fluid, is the corpse's left after Witness's creation on the predecessor home world. The predecessor's Golden Age lasted Aeons after all. Consider the fact that the Vex Fluid shares properties with SIVA. Beyond the stated idea that SIVA may have been invented based off of it and the implication that Quicksilver is likely SIVA coated in Exo mind fluid for EMR shielding. Quicksilver, as was SIVA, is used to cybernetically enhance living beings. It would almost be a given that having Aeons of Golden Age prosperity that the same practice wasn't used by the predecessor race. It's also not outside the realm of possibility that the vex simulation technology is also a development of of the predecessor race. It may have been their first attempt to rewrite the history of the universe in fact, but they realised that it cannot account for the infinite variables caused by paracausal entities & forces. The Veil is the key, a compass and map of space time. The Traveller is the means of affecting physical change in the universe. Without both, making the changes they desired would be impossible. Fast forward to the Witness being created and leaving their home world. The next most sentient and sapient thing would be their nanotech, left within the organic body's and with an entire civilisation's aeons worth of advancements in technologies and scientific knowledge. Vex and Pyramid architecture have many similarities, where they mainly differ is in prioritising function and the creativity of form & aesthetics respectively. It's like the Vex have attempted to continue using the predecessor structures but only in the most efficient and practical ways. Leading to a distinct lack of the same aesthetics seen in Pyramid Tech, that and upward flowing fluids to literal lakes on the ceiling. The Vex in general seem to have a similar goal to the Witness, essentially with themselves becoming the final shape of the universe. The fluid also is capable of matter conversion, as seen with Asher Mir. Which is a shared property of both SIVA and Taken matter/energy/blight. All seems to be a bit too connected to simply chalk up to coincidence.

[@l.r8926]

@@SymbioteMullet agree it fits, but wasn’t the copy of the veil (black heart) made by a different faction/group of vex (sol devise) then the group who created the infinite Forrest?

[@cpaul562]

@@l.r8926 yes the Witness made it I believe, though I may be misremembering the lore so take my comment with a grain of salt.

[@SymbioteMullet]

@l.r8926 yeah, the witness apparently set it up, but the Vex knew how to make one - there's a D1 strike where you have to stop a Vex Mind from recreating the Heart. That reminds me... mars is somehow essential. Humanity first met the Traveller there, the Witness stole it and left the Relic there, our portal to savvy's throne world is there, the black garden is there (after d1 vanilla there was a permanent access point in the subway system in meridian bay). I wonder if any of that will be relevant.

[@zachheyland2545]

The concept of the witness is actually so sick

[@jacksonduncan142]

Yeah I don’t get how aztecross said he’s less interested in the witness from the cutscene

[@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong]

@@jacksonduncan142 Aztecross is well intentioned, if... slightly mentally deficient.

[@beatman2359]

@@jacksonduncan142 destiny youtubers are largely braindead, as is most of the vocal community

[@Lynch2507]

@@jacksonduncan142 because there's this really annoying trend on the internet where we've all been trained to tear apart stories like puzzles and analyze them piece by piece like a jigsaw to the point that when we assemble our version before the storyteller can reveal theirs, we can only be disappointed by the reveal. Its fckin JJ Abrams 'mystery box' brain, for those who've been in this community for years, the mystery of what the darkness is, what the Witness is and what the Traveler is, is a large part of why people keep playing through the good and bad periods. Though i will say its super fckin funny as someone who quite enjoyed Lightfall to see people get annoyed over a lack of answers in that campaign and now this concrete answer to the Witness. Its very r/DTG of them but thats all just me being petty.

[@Loderyod]

@@Lynch2507 ayo, based department?

[@superelite5133]

Jesus this just makes the witness even more terrifying now we know why Mara said it has enough rage to destroy entire stars.

[@Technodreamer]

The universe's longest, least mature temper tantrum.

[@dylanhumphrey2479]

@@Technodreamer LMAOOOO

[@lilwindingo1100]

Isn’t it ironic/symbolic how we learned to use and wield strand from the Veil to bind and unravel the threads of the universe, while the Witness used the Veil to basically become a woven construct of the countless numbers of its own people? Like the Witnesses body is essentially a strand construct with the souls of its people being the threads that make up its entire being, each individual being a single stitch or thread in the tapestry of its being and yet having the will to be one together. Strangely it still keeps an aspect of its existence as individuals when it refers to itself as “We.”

[@gh0ul2559]

So what happens if we use strand on the Witness? Will we unravel the being as a whole or be entangled into its being?

[@SymbioteMullet]

@@gh0ul2559 We stitch ourselves inside and them rip our way back out.

[@soundcloudpandapandawa2997]

@lilwindingo1100 it's more terrifying when you think the whole process for them to become one being was forced upon a considerable portion of its species. I like to think when we were first trying to learn how to use stasis is what's left of those who didnt want to become the Witness and their desperate attempt at warning and teaching us.

[@soulsurvivor8293]

​@@soundcloudpandapandawa2997I get that impression too, the Witness's predecessor species wouldn't have a homogeneous opinion after all. There is some parallel to Neomuna with how they had to force everyone into cryogenics, regardless of if they wanted to or not. If they went willingly then they were uploaded to the cloud ark, if not they were rounded up and just put in the deep freeze. Seems like the "Sympathisers" among the Witness's collective may have been able to pass it off as a means to lure humanity in with the same temptation that worked on Erimas and her House. A dependence on borrowed power, instead we had been able to use the power without the shard and truly claim it for ourselves without being claimed by it in return. Some guardian's have not been so lucky, just as Erimas and some of her House have doubts and likely attempted to resist succumbing to the power.

[@Sorain1]

@@soundcloudpandapandawa2997 I hope they go with that. It'd solidly differentiate the Witness from another amalgam being I know too much about, the God Emperor of Mankind from Warhammer 40k.

[@BadAnalogy91]

I suddenly find myself looking at all those weird Pompeiian statues in the Pyramids with a newfound sense of dread. Are those actually the petrified remains of the Witness’ people?!

[@everythingsalright1121]

Pretty much

[@SymbioteMullet]

@@everythingsalright1121 ... What would happen if a Ghost picked one?

[@Sorain1]

@@SymbioteMullet That would be pretty fascinating. Maybe that would be how they reveal that not everyone joined the Witness willingly. (While also suggesting how to unravel the Witness itself.)

[@SymbioteMullet]

@@Sorain1 But Ghosts are purely light, so it'd raise one of the Witness People with no memory... we'd have to find a Deepsight master like Savathun to restore their memory, and that might be a _really_ bad idea if it turns out this was one of the people fanatically devoted to the Witness' cause...

[@inquisitorichijou883]

I think the Predeccessors are what is depicted in the Veiled Statues. They are a memory of what the Witness once was, how it all started.

[@SymbioteMullet]

They are representations of that race, and they are wearing veils...

[@thatloner2831]

Dude you called it

[@manuelaraujo1992]

The Witness is my favorite villain right now. I love that the bad guy actually has a good reason for being the way they are.

[@GrotesqueSmurf]

good? wdym?? they want to erase every living being in existence..

[@ringomandingo1015]

Now it makes mores sense as to why we got Stasis. Remember that we didn’t find or make Stasis, the Witness GAVE it to us saying, “You require more control”. The Witness sees parallels to us Lightbearers and maybe every species that served or benefited from the Traveler and gives them a measure of control to establish order beyond what the light can give. Also the “EGGSHELL” lore card from season of Arrivals makes more sense now too! THE LORE IS SO RICH!!

[@makscepura3572]

The traveler see you nothing but a soldier, that you are thankless. The traveler Has been creating soldiers only to fight the witness and those soldiers they all gone expect Guardians and hive lightbearers. We may be lightbearers but we fight for the last city not the traveler. I don't care if he gets destroyed drifter is right the light is more like curse not gift better if he is destroyed or reshaped as new with the weil (personalny i think that the witness wants to combine the light and dark or more like the veil and the traveler as one force that can be controled he wants to do something like awoken all beings in the Universe reshaped as awoken I still remember the xur words "awoken you don't know what role you play in the universe" or something like that).

[@theonewayroad3867]

Really makes you look back at certain things with a new understanding for example : [Shadebinder Warlock] Flavor Text " Reality is chaotic and unruly; bind it and bring order. "

[@skydefender7554]

What if the betrayal isn't from the perspective of the nomads but of the traveler? The traveler gave them the light and its gifts and then the nomads attempted to control it and exert their power over it, which in the traveler's eyes would be betrayal as control is the opposite of the light.

[@StupidCatLady]

I don't blame the Traveler for fleeing. If the Veil can essentially shackle the Traveler, I'd run too. No one wants to be imprisoned or have someone else's will exerted over them. We may not know what the Traveler is, but it has shown time and time again that it is very much a sentient being. No creature wants a life of subjection

[@TerrariaGolem]

Control isn't the opposite of light. Strand is darkness and the lack of control.

[@skydefender7554]

@@TerrariaGolem not necessarily, strand is still a form of control. You have to relinquish control to be able to wield it or it will control you and inevitably destroy you. So to use it to control your enemies, suspend/sever, you have to learn to let it flow through you and not control it. So it still is a form of control, but in the sense that it controls others, not the wielder.

[@soundcloudpandapandawa2997]

Kinda like how Ghaul did when he forcibly attained the light

[@jackbrax7808]

@@skydefender7554​​⁠I wouldn’t say this is about control but about flow and mindset. “Perspective” as Osiris put it. Stasis is about control. Control over your self and then control over others. Strand is about connection. Void is the connection of all physical things. From pebbles to a black hole. Strand is the psychic connections between living things. The webs of consciousness that flow between all. To wield strand is to relinquish control yes. But more about “flowing with the strands and weaves created from all living things.” The reality is we actually have NO idea why the traveller chose to flea. Maybe it didn’t desire to be controlled. Maybe it didn’t like the predecessors choosing the darkness. We don’t really know.

[@Alassandros]

You want a bit of foreshadowing that's been in the game since vanilla D2? There's symbols around the Tower of a white circle that has a black triangle overlaid across it. The triangle has vertical lines on it. The symbol resembles the Traveler's current state. I feel like no one is talking about it.

[@tsunertoo9149]

I'm starting to believe the "deep" is a metaphor. It's not really something light or dark, the deep may actually be a thing that drives people towards the need of controlling everything. The deep constantly talks about taking, taking from others, taking OTHERS, taking the universe, taking time and space. It makes me think the deep is a threat that isn't light or dark related, but maybe instead it's an obsession, and obsession to control the universe, to control everything. The deep simply appears more related to the dark because the dark doesn't seem to really be bothered by it. But we've seen beings of the light seemingly falling into "the deep" in the form of the light bearrers who were warlords.

[@tachi5408]

I played through the the DLC's and noticed that "The Deep" is actually a VERY COMMON phrase throughout the series. I think this season may be the most important narratively just because of how much "The Deep" is actually referred too even if not specifically referring to Titan.

[@GrotesqueSmurf]

@@tachi5408 The deep is just the Hive term for the Darkness. It's about how they dove deep into their homeworld, Fundament, way beyond the light bearing leviathan Ahsa, way down to the Wormgods, which gave them the darnkess. They were deep down below; hence: the deep. You actually get that definitvoin from ingame lore :) deep = darkness

[@aidenfanucci9523]

​@@GrotesqueSmurfthe leviathan on Fundament was not Ahsa (unless they retcon that leviathan's death as un reliable narrator) as that leviathan died. Also Ahsa doesn't wield light, she is a being of darkness

[@SINDRIKARL1]

@@aidenfanucci9523 I believe one of the dialogue bits you can get in deep dive as of this week confirms ahsa is the leviathan, it talks about having tried to stop the hive from getting to the worm gods.

[@SINDRIKARL1]

@@GrotesqueSmurf yeah, Deep is just the hive term for Darkness just as "The Sky" is the hive term for the traveller/light (as shown by Xivu Arath's raging).

[@breno499]

A note on the similarity between the infinite forest and the Traveler portal: Usually, portals that are round transport you through space (gambit portals, those cannons on nessus, the portal in the boss room of glassway, the portal to the black garden), and portals that are triangular transport you through time (corridors of time, vault of glass, maybe infinite forest? kinda?). I always assumed it has to do with the nature of the light and dark (round=traveler, physical realm. Triangular=darkness, immaterial realm, memories are kinda like travelling through time). Maybe why the traveler portal is triangular, its not another place in space but in time.

[@formerlyknownasmousecopp4367]

I like that theyre centering in on the theme of the traveler always being silent. To me it is part of what sets the traveler apart narratively: is the bravery to guide and not be fully understood. To let us actually have to work towards our goals rather than just being spoonfed

[@formerlyknownasmousecopp4367]

And i think this cutscene and dialogue does really well to BEGIN to explain things but leave a loooot of room for questions and interpretation and allows them to further expand upon this info over time

[@SymbioteMullet]

The Veil is the head, the Traveller the hands. A thinker and a doer, but they are not united.

[@andrewtackett8351]

​@SymbioteMullet so the traveler didn't consciencely choose to leave? The hands just happened to try and escape?

[@SymbioteMullet]

@andrewtackett8351 instinct. Danger - run. Can't run - fight.

[@axelkusanagi4139]

I wonder if that is ludonarrative resonance. Destiny has had many missions (at least destiny 1 did) that reminded me of ARGs in that it was up to the community to discover what to do and what was next. We weren't shown by waypoints and minimaps how to get Outbreak Prime, for example.

[@Ifyoucanreadthisgooglebroke]

The most interesting strand to tug on from this lore dump has got to be the untangling of light vs dark and the related "gardener" vs "winnower" in light of the reveal that the latter two are just cultural concepts of the witness being imposed on the light and dark by the witness.

[@steviejeets6479]

I imagined that (to fill in the gaps in Ahsa’s summary) the people who became the Witness had their own golden age that came on the heels of generations of struggling to live and find prosperity. Inevitably, their own Clovis Brays emerged and this is what I think the “deep” is. Those who have everything they need but allow greed, pride, or whatever it may have been turn their ambitions towards things that could do harm. As the benevolent silent god, The Gardener gave gifts of arc/void/solar/longevity/etc, some realized they could be wielded and used to harm or leverage others. Just like the risen warlord of Earth’s dark age. The discovery of Darkness gave them control over what they grew to fear, and they decided that because greed and harm would seemingly ALWAYS emerge in any civilization that the Traveller blessed, they deemed their perspective enlightened enough to rewrite the universe. One sect consumed the other and the remaining people merged to become the Witness we now know.

[@Opodebota]

From the way the Traveler's emergence was narrated, it seemed to me like the nomad people actually willed the Traveler into existence (which is why it looks like it's emerging from the ground as opposed to being dug up), from their desperation for salvation as a collective. That itself might be the manifestation of the power of the darkness or the deep, using the mind to create matter, light from darkness.

[@monadoboy9639]

No the Traveller is definetely way older than that I feel like they are going to tie the Vex or some other ancient race into the story of the traveller and the veil the witnesses people did not create the traveller

[@PT801]

I love this theory! But that leaves the question of the veil and how it exists.

[@abnego9676]

​@PT801 If their collective desperation willed The Traveler into existence, perhaps The Veil was born of their collective angst and yearning for purpose.

[@Sorain1]

I don't think that is where they are going with this, but it's a really cool idea in and of itself.

[@ForTheViolence]

Cool idea. But the traveler has been around since time itself probably.

[@thaabyss665]

Byf coming in clutch during a waiting room boredom moment

[@yeagerj7747]

same😂 Todd howard interview next. It's a good day for gaming

[@michaelcrandall4853]

I love how everyone and I do mean every single bad guy we have fought in this entire saga of destiny 2 has only ever wanted one thing and that is to have the traveler talk to them from gaul to the witness almost every major bad guy we have fought in destiny 2 has only wanted to talk to the traveler that's it 😂

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

Right, except for Xivu Arath, Panoptes, Xol, Uldren, Eramis, Rhulk, Calus, and literally everyone except Ghaul, The Witness and arguably Savathûn. You’re right, 3/10 is basically every single bad guy.

[@michaelcrandall4853]

@@SarcasticDragonGaming ur right some of those guys didn't want that but arguably some do xivu arath wants what the witness wants so u could say that she wants the traveler to talk or communicate in some way as well xol and pranoptes u r right didn't want that they were mostly out to destroy us but they gave us Allies that eventually help in the long haul. Uldren didn't want to talk to the traveler but he did want to talk to Mara but it was actually a taken riven so u could say he wanted to talk to someone but the only one who answered was the darkness. Eramis wanted to destroy the traveler but more than anything she wants a place for her people again and if the traveler spoke she would be the first to kneel to it and join the house of light. And rulhk and Claus were lost hopes before we even met them they had been transformed or tainted by the darkness so of course they didn't want to talk to it but they served the witness so rulhk definitely was ok with talking/ final shaping. But calus hehe he was only in it for the greed and power he was no more than a pawn at the very end.

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

@@michaelcrandall4853 arguably yeah, I’m mostly just messing around, you are right that it’s a prevalent reasoning for sure.

[@michaelcrandall4853]

@@SarcasticDragonGaming yeah ik ur messing around man and I knew someone was going to say all this or more and I wanted them to because it gives me a reason to say all that I did because I'm not the type of person to write a paragraph as a starting comment 😂. As reply maybe 😉😂 but never a starting one.

[@agni-kai132]

I love that the witness basically has the same concept of the emperor of mankind but turned up to 100, instead of just every shaman of prehistoric earth it was every single member of it's race, wild stuff

[@DefConOnIt]

Kinda reminds me of Father from Full Metal Alchemist anime. All those souls in his philosophers stone.

[@Nchill74]

Don't forget about season of the lost with savathun! When you look up from her crystal, we see the triangle in the circle again

[@DeusExAngelo]

I think this cutscene indirectly revealed the origin of egregore and where The Witness gained it's power. It seems like the predecessor species used The Veil to fuse into The Witness via mass genosuicide (I imagine many among this speces were not willing participants). So how did The Witness become so powerful? Simple, the deaths of billions (potentially trillions) generated a massive deal of psychic power in The Darkness. This power harvested and focused into a singlur being: The Witness. How did I come to this conclusion? Remember what is said about eregore. It a mycelial network that responds to the unique psychic phenomenon of the death of sapient beings. Where was egregore encontered? From the Glykon, Leviathan, and now Titan. The first two ships were thrust into dark anomalies left by the Witness taking two worlds...and the last a location returned from being taken. Not just that, but then consider what happens when guardians kill beings like The Disciples, The Caretaker, or The Tormentors...a bunch of dark roots violently emerge from their deaths. As if the roots are reacting to said deaths.

[@AvantleFox]

I've been thinking about this too, glad I wasn't the only one.

[@SymbioteMullet]

Since the Drifter has apparently found the world Egregore came from (or at least one heavily infested with it), is it possible he found the Witness' homeworld?

[@eclips_total2215]

@@SymbioteMullet yooo my man drifter really is a wild card in this deck.

[@AvantleFox]

@SymbioteMullet I thought of that too, that much death all at once is sure to cause a surge. There's a lot Drifter is keeping to himself, too. I also wonder if we'll get more on that planet with the light suppressing beings.

[@SymbioteMullet]

@@AvantleFox Plot twist: The Drifter has been the Witness this entire time. Actually... it's been a long time since we've seen his ghost...

[@kasumiayanami4501]

The Traveler: Gifts us cosmic power The Veil: Memory of the Universe The Final Shape: Power to rewrite and control the Universe The Traveler flees to protect reality itself

[@TN29571]

Exactly. And than Savathun stole the veil during the collapse so the traveler no longer needed to flee. Then it was crippled?

[@SymbioteMullet]

@@TN29571 A shard of it fell into the EDZ and then it stopped wherever the last city is, and created Ghosts, little travellers who make life out of death, but it's only one half of the puzzle, so they have no memory.

[@monadoboy9639]

⁠@@SymbioteMulletwhich is fascinating because if the Witness isn't a being created by the darkness he's just an entire species of people who worshipped it what is going to be the counterpoint to that does the traveller and veil have someone inside like who made the ghosts how can the traveller fire a massive laser beam like we have one question answered on the witness but what is the traveller I have to know now

[@raven-0621]

​@@SymbioteMulletbecause Light is life and Darkness is mind, that's why Guardians have no memory, that's how Savathun used Darkness to make Crow remember his past life, that's how we use Deepsight to recreate things from the past, that's how the Witness had access to things from Mars' past. Since the Traveler can modify space/life, the Veil can modify time/mind, sum both and you can modify EVERYTHING. That's further hinted with the Sol Progeny, since the Vex want to modify everything to be Vex, they tried to recreate the Veil (Black Heart) so they could try to create a link with the Traveler and do the same thing the Witness wants to do.

[@amogus3367]

Holy shit so the Traveler is literally called the Traveler because it just constantly goes to different worlds chaotically and randomly transforming those worlds and civilisations with the light… It has no method to its madness, no plan. Just mindlessly running away and blessing left and right. In contrast to the Veil which doesn’t travel and instead stays put. The veils power was only harnessed by force in Neomuna, never does it actually just give out power… Oh god I’m beginning to get what the witness is saying 😂

[@eleanorcerar6273]

Ever since we met the Veil, I've always like the idea of it being the Traveler's counterpart. The Traveler (in creating Ghosts) makes people forget, and the Veil is described (in that one tweet, you know the one) as "the memory of the universe". As we have known, the Light makes you forget, and the Darkness makes you remember. The recent Hidden dossier we got really helps sell this concept home.

[@4ncientGu150]

Honestly, the Witness backstory reminds me of a psychological experiment. Some people wanted to see what paradise would look like, and what effects it would have. So they built a tiny mouse paradise where they had all the food they could want, water everywhere, etc. It was fine at first, but eventually things went crazy. The mice started getting incredibly violent towards each other, even their own mates and children. They stopped using the area they had designated for bathroom stuff and just started crapping in everything, including in the food dispensers. It got significantly worse once the next generation of young came to maturity and the older ones died. (They had no examples of normal behavior) In the end, all of them died. Some started refusing to eat or drink, even with clean sources right next to them. There were no more young, because they had all stopped procreating. For no discernable reason, without something to strive for and without having to struggle to survive, they all became progressively more crazy, and died. Edit: Small thing, but I forgot they were mice, not rats.

[@manuelaraujo1992]

Holy shit.... what is this experiment called??

[@baka_ja_nai]

This infamous experiment was proven to be just animal cruelty with no purpose since it was held under conditions and restrictions where it was bound to fail. There are many critics of it - for example "Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?"

[@SymbioteMullet]

@@manuelaraujo1992 "Calhoun's Rodent Experiment" or "universe 25". Here's an excerpt of some text on it, which is very familiar... By the 560th day, the population increase had ceased altogether as the mortality rate hovered at 100 percent. This marked the start of the "death phase" - aka the "die period" - in which the rodent utopia slid toward extinction. Amidst the violence, hostility, and lack of mating, a younger generation of mice reached maturity, having never been exposed to examples of normal, healthy relations. With no concept of mating, parenting, or marking territory, this generation of mice spent all of their waking hours eating, drinking, and grooming themselves. In reference to their perfected, unruffled appearances, Calhoun called these mice the "beautiful ones." Living in seclusion from the other mice, they were spared the violence and conflict that waged in the crowded areas, yet made no social contributions. According to Calhoun, the death phase consisted of two stages: the "first death" and "second death." The former was characterized by the loss of purpose in life beyond mere existence - no desire to mate, raise young or establish a role within society. This first death was represented by the lackadaisical lives of the beautiful ones, whereas the second death was marked by the literal end of life and the extinction of Universe 25. THE SUN SETS ON UNIVERSE 25 Extending on his observations of the beautiful ones, Calhoun later opined that mice, as humans, thrive on a sense of identity and purpose within the world at large. He argued experiences such as tension, stress, anxiety, and the need to survive make it necessary to engage in society. When all needs are accounted for, and no conflict exists, the act of living is stripped to its barest physiological essentials of food and sleep. In Calhoun's view: Herein is the paradox of a life without work or conflict. When all sense of necessity is stripped from the life of an individual, life ceases to have purpose. The individual dies in spirit. Gradually, the mice that refused to mate or engage in society came to outnumber those that formed gangs, raped and plundered, and fed off their own. The last known conception in Universe 25 occurred on Day 920, at which point the population was capped at 2,200, well short of the enclosure's 3,000 capacity. An endless supply of food, water, and other resources were still there for the mice, but it didn't matter. The behavior sink had set in, and there was no stopping Universe 25 from careening to its self-made demise. Soon enough, there was not a single living mouse left in the enclosure..

[@triplecastsleep1924]

An important detail with that that people miss, is that the 'paradise' that was created for the rats lacked space, privacy and any form of entertainment. Literally all the rats had was food and water.

[@Sorain1]

@@triplecastsleep1924 Exactly. Put humans (or other sapients) into that situation and they'd start pursuing art, culture, hobbies etc.

[@finleydean4]

As soon as you mentioned where Osiris discovered the prophecies I thought about the infinite forest and the as soon as I was reminded of the entrance it all made a lot of sense, I think that it’s 100% true and you’ve hit the nail on the head

[@kenricbourne9417]

The moment of the cutscene where the Witness opens the portal on the Traveller, I immediately connected that to the portal to the Infinite Forest. Different looking, but same shape. A Portal through time makes sense and, in some ways, may be the beginning of an answer to how Elsie Bray (The Stranger) came to be in this timeline since she clearly isn't from this timeline.

[@SymbioteMullet]

Previous lore has said that each time she's failed, it's all gone dark and she's wound up at the start of her journey again. However, her lore changed between D1 and D2. It appeared in D1 that she was being actively sent back in time repeatedly to change the past (based on her talking to someone on her comms we couldn't hear), jumping to specific points to observe and steer us. The speculation at the time was that she was working with Osiris in the future, but I don't think any concrete proof of that ever emerged. Now she's living the whole series of events over and over again, rather than selectively jumping in and out. And the Pouka are helping her remember previous iterations of the timeline better. But this timeline has gone further than any other...

[@papertowels9162]

The Vault of Glass is all about using time to rewrite the universe. What do we see throughout the raid? Triangle entrances/portals, especially the giant glass structure Atheon spawns in front of.

[@SymbioteMullet]

@papertowels9162 You have a point. It's a circular door into the vault initially, a circular one past the Templar, then a triangular one into the Glass Throne. Which is, when you get to it, a triangular room/usable space, with two circular portals to the past and future. And you're causing paradoxes by running the Aegis from the past into the future into the past into the future. Atheon opens the timestream with a spherical burst of power, then you have to deal with a triangle of oracles to escape.

[@domerius3995]

Finally, someone mentions prophecies from Mercury! It was one of the lore pieces that was really fascinating to me back in year 1. It's fun to speculate about and I would enjoy a video in this topic! Also great video as always! 😄

[@aidenfanucci9523]

I just re-read and re-contextualised them and they forshadow every event leading up to now so well

[@asgard_dad8149]

I'm so glad you make these videos. I forgot previous week's dialogue and also all about those weapons.

[@n0denz]

My theory on the Vex is that they are an imperfect replica of the Traveler. Their radiolaria is their light (radio being Latin for "to beam, to shine radiate light" and "Laria" referring to Lake Como [Radiolaria can literally be translated as the Shining Lake] or _Larius Lacus_ as it was once known), and the Black Heart as their Veil. Like the Traveler, the Vex also itinerant and singularly concerned with self-preservation. It gets even more interesting when looking at the word, "Vex". It's derived from the Latin, _Vexare_ "to shake, jolt, toss violently," but this word is derived from _Vexus_ an alternate spelling of _Vectus_ meaning, "to have borne, to have carried , to have conveyed," or, "to have passed, to have rode, to have sailed," ultimately going back to the Proto-Indo European root word, "*wegh-" meaning "to go, move, transport in a vehicle." I think this sums the Vex up pretty well. They travel and they harass. Perhaps they are another Yin to the Traveler's Yang. As a final curiosity, look at the Latin _Vexillum_ "flag, military ensign, banner" which is derived from _Velum_ *"a cloth, covering, curtain, veil."*

[@toffylikesgames]

I'm glad you mentioned the Vex because as the cutscene described what the Witness' people were trying to do , all I could think of was that the Vex are trying to do the same thing!!

[@CaydesChicken]

My thoughts were that the Traveler and the Veil were the "Eldritch race". They're the only one we know of, possibly the last of their kind. So it'd make sense that "The ending of the eldritch race" pertained to them. Also the Oxford dictionary literally defines eldritch as "Weird and sinister or ghostly"

[@CaydesChicken]

11:34 If anybody wants to read the prophecy again

[@em3460]

When they say they were the first to fall victim to the Witness its like when Obi-Wan said Darth Vader killed Aniken Skywalker.

[@gamerprodigy107]

This is such a cool reveal. Here is a little mind blowing fact: bungie might have hinting at this ending since vanilla d1. Why do i think this? On the walls of the d1 and d2 towers there are symbols on the walls that show a triangle in a circle exactly like the traveler with the triangle cut out.

[@ModuliOfRiemannSurfaces]

I think the final shape is going to be very Vex and Taken-heavy.

[@SymbioteMullet]

I hope so. I really like the Vex.

[@joshuavidrine889]

You're probably right, but with the Witness being a collective of all of its species, Bungie has the best opportunity to finally add a new species faction to fight if the Witness splits off parts of itself to deal with us. However, knowing Bungie, they'll take the easy route and reuse Vex and Taken rather than actually create new enemies. After all, it's their motto to do what is quick and easy rather than make quality stuff that requires a bit of difficulty.

[@CptArg]

Just a side note on the icon with the forge. The icon is not upside down the player's position is wrong. If one is to use a "forge" one does not stand in the forge itself, one stands "outside" and uses the the forge. Also when doing so you need a schematic to build your design so you would go to the icon that would represent your schematic. So kudos for Bungie for having these small hints that early on 👏

[@Alassandros]

The Traveller coming out of the ground makes me wonder if it's a gaiaform.

[@JonasLekevicius]

In the last message, I'm not so sure that "betrayal" is from the perspective of Witness people: "betrayal and escape" might be from the Traveler's perspective. By brining the Veil they betrayed Traveler's gifts, and Traveler had nothing else to do but escape.

[@Baldeaglefacts]

If I remember correctly, the unveiling lorebook said that some of the vex "found their way back to them", referring to the sol divisive returning to worship the darkness. Given what we now know, perhaps we can now infer that the vex were made by the progenitors. My theory is that the progenitors actually did succeed in linking the veil and the traveler in the past, at least temporarily. They created robots to scout through the portal first, as the progenitors didn't know what exactly to expect on the other side. The chaos of the traveler made the robots into the vex, and spread them across spacetime. When the traveler fled it closed the portal and broke any control the progenitors might have had over the vex, making them into their own "people" ( I use that term loosely).

[@KaiPerspective]

Mora than time travel, I think that the veil, being "the memory of everything" has the information to recreate the time before the division, and with the light, being the realm of the physical, one with the two of them can recreate (in this case) that time before

[@xdarkwing104x]

I actually feel like the whole light and dark saga was giving away in the cut scene after the first part of the red war. The part where the person fell into the water, then looked up, and saw a bunch of black pyramids. That garden looks like the same area where I Cora found cayde-6 in the trailer for the next season. I could be wrong, but it's worth taking a look.

[@BrotherShaw]

"I want you back" by The Witness and the Black Fleet 😂

[@primedasymmium]

I can't help but to always go back to original Destiny 1 concept art and from 10 years ago and look at how things are starting to come together. Europa in Beyond Light, the 5th race aka The Witness, the hecking pyramids in detail, and so much more and then the world's we see in great detail in the concept art that we have yet to see

[@kevinvanwanrooij3113]

The vex are still such a mystery. When I read the unveiling lore book there were talks about how light and dark fought during the flower game and the collided force made the universe. The game made up patterns. What if the Vex are the physical manifestation of those patterns in the game? It makes sense as to how the darkness was viewed as the pursuer of perfect patterns and why the vex always follow particular patterns to shape their perfect reality.

[@healthcaredotgov3097]

I'm in love with the Witness, I can safely say that I'm hyped for the Final Shape. As a concept, being an amalgamation of the collective will of multiple species is insane, but the added subtext of a search for purpose distinctly humanizes it. The Witness isn't any different, its pursuit for concrete, understandable meaning is mirrored exactly by humanity, which makes its true motives uniquely unsettling. Just like the Guardians, it seeks dominion of Dark and Light, but what separates us from it? Power? We have power now, and now we have the same understanding. Really looking forward to where Bungie takes and interpolates this thread.

[@skunkgucc]

I’m happy your still making videos when I used to play destiny obsessively I was addicted to your lore videos..

[@Moose_Hawkins]

Out of all the places I would've expected to see major hints about the story and the deepest lore, I never would've expected Garden Progeny 1 to be one of them.

[@ASpaceOstrich]

I do find it interesting how almost none of this new information comes as a surprise. Its not that I already knew it, but I had a hunch. They'd hinted at a lot of this stuff, which is impressive because they're definitely making a lot of this up as they go along. We've learned more about the Veil this season, but for me at least its nothing I didn't already infer. It's neat how they've managed to do this, and I'd love to see their writing policy that makes this possible. They have a system they use for writing that enables this illusion of pre-planning. I think I've heard it referred to as open-window writing or something to that effect. I'd love to know more about it.

[@bendubose9887]

This video gets me excited about the cutscene way more. I was too sour about lightfall when this first dropped to get excited. Very interested in seeing what else you cover in the next videos!

[@steampunk_fox4225]

I've always thought of 'The Deep' as like a darker Darkness, if that makes sense? Like, Strand, Stasis, Taking, and (Resonance? Is that what the yellow-and-black abilities are called? The ones used in Vow and by the Shadow Legion?) are Darkness powers, they can be controlled in some way. But the Deep is uncontrollable Darkness. You can't control it, you can only drown in it. Also, switching over to the Vex, I think the Vex were created by the Witness to replace the Traveler. If they were to replace the Traveler, then the Vault of Glass makes a little more sense (to me at least). The Vault is focused entirely around time, which is what the Witness wants to control, maybe. The Vault was supposed to be a replacement for the Traveler Portal, with the Black Heart, the Veil replica, eventually going to be linked with VoG, creating a pseudo-Traveler Portal. Also also, I think the Infinite Forest is a prototype of VoG. But because it doesn't have any actual control over time, the Vault was made. Might be stretching a bit, but look at the Forest's portal. Big triangle. Look at Atheon's Throne Room. Big triangle.

[@Convorees]

I hope we find out how the Vex fit into the wider story of Destiny, they’ve always been an interesting point of lore within the universe.

[@GrotesqueSmurf]

yeah and since we've been lied to about the creation of the universe (gardener and winnower), we now don't now anymore how the Vex were created..

[@anthonyhessen8271]

The lore team works so hard, it’s just so unfortunate that the rest of bungie doesn’t work this hard on the game or else d2 would literally be a 10/10 game

[@truegrave007]

Listening to this made me think of the similarities between the witness and the anti spiral from gurren laggan. A civilization that ground it's evolution to a halt and fused into a single hive mind to prevent the chaos that would stem from rampant growth

[@jaycenr]

Is there a possibility that the Witness is human? The cutscene refers to a race that experienced a “Golden Age”, just as Earth did. Also says they found and brought the Veil and the Gardener together and learned to reshape reality, and that’s when the Traveller fled. I’d assume that is when their Golden Age ended, just as ours did. If the Witness isn’t human, there are at least a lot of parallels.

[@MrTmm97]

I think it’s silly every time Sloan finishes her dialogue she transmits away just for us to talk to her through the holo immediately after. Guess Bungie didn’t wanna have to animate the rest of the conversation lol. I just find it odd for her to transmit and immediately talk to her again. I understand we can not immediately talk through the holo but who’s ganna wait…. It’s like 10 second away.

[@erikm8373]

I believe they've said it's specifically a technical/resource thing, with it being significantly less resource intensive to do the half-body hologram than a full-body performance.

[@MonogamousPigeon]

Hopefully those resources are going into making new armor and guns, updating Gambit…wait.

[@BrazarB]

2:20 i think depending on the context "the Deep" can be the Witness, in one of the audio logs from the recent dungeon Xivu talks about "The Deep sings its promises" to me shes talking about the Witness talking about its promise of its Final Shape. And back when Oryx communed with "the Deep" its clear that he communed with the Witness.I think its clear that the Witness has tried & in a way succeding into making its servants & other people/races, belive that it is inseparable from the Darkness, even though there is a distinction & there are characters that make this distinction, (like Mara Sov recently) but whenever you think of the Witness, you think of the Darkness, & vice versa (Mithrax sees them as the same). The Witness has even exterminated other races that didn't align with its use of Darkness. When the civilization became the Witness, they basically became the embodiment of what the Darkness represents/is "a power that was shaped by thought & consciousness". And the Witness itself is the reason behind the Darkness's corruption

[@SymbioteMullet]

You've just made me think. The witness is an amalgamation of an entire race. The way the hive tribute their power upwards is kind of similar, the amalgamation of an entire race's power into the Hive Gods. Mimicking the witness in another way.

[@adamcrook4611]

One tihng that's interesting is this: The Witness' race coming together to form a unit the complete a goal, that's not sword logic. That's bomb logic.

[@RetroMetroism]

The Traveler and the Veil were probably once connected, literally. Look at the vines underneath the Veil.

[@XSoldat13]

It might be nothing, but the winding river in that cutscene looks a lot like the winding river in the trailer for The Final Shape.

[@justcallmeness]

I was thinking about that too. Perhaps we go back to the "Beginning" in the place where the Witness was formed.

[@XSoldat13]

@@justcallmeness I'm just hoping it doesn't end up being that our actions create the beginning of the Traveller making a causal loop.

[@tommymeregalli7428]

my question now is how does asha know all of this??

[@epicelephant1258]

Finally back to the style of lore videos I subbed for. Solid video. No personal takes, no complaining, no reprimanding the community, just straight up great destiny lore. Thank you. I hope this keeps up.

[@tezra9085]

Giving someone infinite possibilities but no purpose beyond survival is actually a very realistic method to drive them insane.

[@zombiepicnic9683]

This cutscene essentially shows the very beginning of the Light and Darkness Saga. It's also our first hint as to the stories beyond this saga. The Traveler and the Veil have a history that far predates the Witness.

[@marvinnation]

From the Halopedia: The Precursors were an advanced race that preceded and were mythologized by the Forerunners. The Forerunners classified them as "Transsentient" beings, having the ability to travel among galaxies and accelerate the evolution of intelligent life.

[@timewaster504]

The only reason why that I’m disappointed with the witness is that I was really hoping for more of a primordial god,was of a super SUPER advanced species.

[@lazyvoid7107]

They're super advanced species we watch the same cutscenes?

[@DG-oc2uw]

The roots that grow from the other end of The Veil form the Tree of Silver Wings, which when fully grown is a Sphere. This is where The Traveler, and maybe a new Traveler, originates.

[@bahatia2130]

There's been a circle with a triangle in the middle in the tower for years, yet it wasn't until last year that I really paid it any attention.

[@BarstucksCoffee]

The Predecessors' pursuit of the Final Shape feels like the Covenant's Great Journey all over again

[@mastertwigg3974]

Exactly I feel like these predecessors are also like the forerunners which some were turned into the flood, a hive mind

[@mastertwigg3974]

Or actually the predecessors are like the precursors from halo

[@ElA-eb9pi]

I’ll be honest I was really expecting it to be revealed that the witnesses motive was just based on revenge, and that really annoyed me. After seeing the cutscene tho, I like the witnesses motive. It’s more in line with what I wanted, which was the witness just having a philosophical disagreement with the traveler. I really like this, gg bungie.

[@jamesbridges6993]

That’s fine my Brother BYF safe travels to you and your family

[@HumzyTumzy]

13:31 god i love bungie so much i hope this was intentional from the beginning

[@heickelrrx]

The Vex already hint us about the witness since VOG, the Shotgun flavour text clearly show, WItness

[@knowledgeseeker3068]

You will never read this but thank you for your honesty and hard work BYF. :)

[@ArcaneStrain]

The two siblings are surely The Traveler and The Veil

[@HumzyTumzy]

im confused too because in week 1 and in the actual cutscene, Ahsa through Sloane says “the first to fall victim to The Witness” / “The Witness’ first victims were once like you”. kinda makes me hope The Witness actually is the main being of the entire body of souls that were the victims of it. i feel like finding out The Witness is just the entire race in one kinda took some of its aura away for me, but i’m still nonetheless losing my mind excited for The Final Shape

[@donb7519]

its the idea that the entire race died to make the witness so they were its first victims. Plus the witness uses we to refer to itself as if it really is an entire people

[@rebel_alpha_gaming]

It's crazy to think that one of the most hated expansions could be the most important key to understanding and predicting the story of Destiny

[@nailinthefashion]

I was looking through the field guide from the collector's edition of D1 and there's stuff that's still relevant to this day. Feel how you feel about the microtransactions or gameplay, but the lore is next level and far more rich than most other shooters, and games, periodt.

[@arthanor9631]

Lore and moment to moment gameplay, those are definitely the strengths of this franchise. So much potential, you can't help but want to see it come to fruition, regardless of how it is being squandered at a given moment.

[@ForTheViolence]

Lore doesn’t solve an overall bad narrative nor does it make up for the stale gameplay loop

[@rinzlur-k6m]

If only that lore was actually shown in the game and not some tiny text you have to read through.

[@Firellius]

The role of the Vex in this becomes interesting if you consider Patternfall. If the Garden is recontextualised to be the Witness' race, then does that mean they are also the origin of the Vex? And if that isn't the case, could it be that the Garden referred to in 'Garden Progeny' is instead, indeed, the Flower Garden? And what would that make the Black Garden?

[@garbaaj1071]

ive been wondering if the black garden is where the witness civilization once stood

[@Achatius1982]

Ever since first landing on Nessus and seeing Vex "architecture" I can't help but see all this in the Traveller. Now, did the Vex copy the Traveller, or was the Traveller a Vex that became different? Really hard to tell, but it might also be worth pointing out that there seems to be no lore of humanity ever getting really close to the Traveller in order to study it, which is weird considering what we usually do

[@enixraghunath703]

The concept of the Witness is very Guren Lagann with a whole race basically becoming the opposite to the chaotic force of life

[@garbaaj1071]

I want to consider something for a moment. yes, we're told of a sandy world, but the witness civilizations called it the "gardener" and "seeds of hope". something grew in the desert, and i dont think it remained a desert for long. I want to consider the fact that the witness civilization originated in the black garden. perhaps the struggle between the gardener and the winnower represents the civilization trying to combine the traveler and the veil, and in the process bringing down the tree of silver wings (which still stands as the mesa), and the creation of the first knife was the creation of the witness? i feel like there is something there. the other thing i think we should consider is, how does ahsa know this? was she there, does she predate the witness civilization? or did the witness tell her, or is there some cosmic understanding ahsa possess that allows her to know?

[@lunaticgmd6427]

If that story thread from Cure of Osiris was intentional then bungie's writers are actually insane for keeping that thread going for that long.

[@prismgames]

This reveal also brings up a very important question: If the traveler doesn't provide guidance (which is the thing that lead the precursors to the veil), does the veil provide understanding? Have we seen any evidence of that?

[@kalcfide]

i think the vex relating to the traveler can make sense, because idk if it is in unveiling but i remember reading that crota discovered the vex by cutting through reality trying to make his ascendant throne. i think back in the book of sorrow lore in d1. and since they have the black "garden", and the hive with the swords, like the "winnowers".

[@fakenok5878]

I'm genuinely excited to play and hear the story unfold

[@lukefurno1151]

The Garden Progeny 1 is something I can’t believe has existed in Destiny for so long but no has incredible context, consider my mind opened

[@Myahster]

What if the Vex are imitating the Predecessors? They perhaps view themselves as one in the same, but through a broken mirror.

[@BlaadyAtYoutube]

Upside down triangle on a circle... and I can only think on the "Upended" and the fact that Rhulk when it appears it's upside down

[@perfectlyhopeless]

Nothing is more satisfying to me than the Destiny Lore Long Game

[@Klassfy]

Just a theory, but what if the Vex are an AI technology created by the Witnesses race (with the use of darkness) made to be able to time travel to the beginning of the universe to reshape it into the final shape.

[@miniverse2002]

With their connection to the paracausality of both the Light and Dark, I'm surprised the Vex would have neither. That being said, they certainly are pursuing their own "Final Shape".

[@justriskit4423]

Still feel like we’re missing the God of Darkness in all this The Veil feels like a thing that connects the two it’s not big enough or seemingly sentient enough to be what I would call the sibling to the Traveler

[@sithticklefingers7255]

“The vex are meant to be gardeners of brass.” M240 Gunner: “Am I a joke to you?”

[@lukasvillar9328]

So why the Traveler is silent ? Is it incapable of normal communication or does it prefer to let others do whatever they want ?

[@Taniks_with_a_steel-chair]

Byf coming in hot with the lore once again

[@jjfordingpoursoulstudios8581]

It's kinda funny to me that my favorite scout rifles lore from the Osiris expansion is so telling. Read it back then, shrugged, and exclaimed "cool" before forgetting about it seconds after reading it. I did love that gun, though. Best sounding scout in the game at the time. And the entrance of the Infinite forest being the same as the portal in the side of the traveler is a bit of a mind fuq. Love the way Bungie ties things years apart together like this in the story/lore.

[@iamcrash5525]

I'm getting Anti-Spiral vibes from the Witness now

[@nicktitus4374]

Welp! Time to drill!

[@kararalhilaly5415]

hopefully you'll talk about the witness and not wine about lightfall again

[@demonsorrows]

(Apologies for the lengths. I'm just thorough with my thoughts is all.) Part of me expects that The Gardener and The Winnower were already in an old myth back then, and they just attributed those names to them because of the myth. The Veil doesn't seem to show any personal or independent intent with its actions the way the Traveler seems to have. Perhaps, in the beginning, their combination allowed it to both have the physical properties and the connection to past, present, and future. Thought rolling around in my head is maybe the precursors to the Vex had been present during the separation and they were hit by both similar to how Awoken were created. However, they saw past, present, and future all at once. The universe still being "new", there was no memory gained a view of time that we're still not privy to. The Vex could have been doing everything for billions of years in preparation for an event they knew was coming. Where they knew they would have to survive and/or be a major player in keeping the universe from being destroyed. A long shot theory I've had is I think they knew of Cayde beforehand, and they'll play a minor role in his resurrection. During the Red War, Cayde was trapped in the Vex teleporter. Maybe him being stuck could have created or stored a simulation of him. Exos having radiolarian fluid in them, they might connect in some way to the network. We get an old Red War Cayde-6 back. We use The Veil to connect him to his memories, but it end up pulling memories from his previous numbers and when he was human, but he's stable. He's not Cayde-7, he says he's all of 'em, just Cayde. All the different versions of himself, he's not as plucky and has a lot going on upstairs.

[@jnavarra]

Brass Gardener entry in the inspiral lorebook insinuates that the vex existed before the witness came to them

[@emerald_alpha8555]

It is absolutely insane that Bungie has had this planned for 10 years. So crazy.

[@everythingsalright1121]

Tbh you could cut out a good chunk of the seasonal content and still arrive here sooner.

[@LieutenantAlaki]

They definitely didn't have it planned for ten years. Bungie and the Grimoire team has outright stated on multiple occasions that, for the first few years of the franchise at the very least, they were making things up as they went along. Seth Dickinson once mentioned that the original Grimoire card for the Darkness was just him spitballing random ideas for what the Darkness could possibly be, because they hadn't figured that out yet! And Luke Smith is apparently on record having said that, circa Vanilla D2, they were outright trying to abandon the concept of the Darkness entirely as anything other than the various alien races we've been fighting. I'm willing to believe that they've had some idea of what they're doing ever since, say, Beyond Light, however. Possibly Shadowkeep. Maybe even Forsaken.