‪@destiny‬

The Minimalists speak with KZbinr Destiny about a host of controversial topics, including extreme hoarding, opinions, objective morality, taxation, God, dating, and whether we should discuss controversial topics in the first place. Watch all 3 hours of episode 409 on The Minimalists Private Podcast: / theminimalists
Discussed in this episode:
How can we set boundaries with the hoarders in our lives? (02:19)
What’s the point of having controversial debates? (13:04)
Is morality objective or relative? (20:55)
Is taxation theft? (28:28)
Does Destiny have any controversial dating advice? (47:00)
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#TheMinimalists

[@TheMinimalistsPodcast]

Who is your favorite debater?

[@essaybyakc]

Destiny

[@ch311o5]

Steven Kenneth Bonnell II, not only is he my favorite debater, he is my favorite Latino LGBTQ+ millennial streamer.

[@sanskritiverma8010]

On the left- Destiny. On the right- The one listening to destiny talk.

[@UnlimitedAuthority]

Easy, Destiny.

[@SpoonbyChoice]

You clearly forgot to add Goransson there@@ch311o5

[@t.k.coleman5398]

T.K. Coleman here. I just wanted to pop in and give a big shout out to Destiny for a fun and stimulating conversation. I know that debates make a lot of people feel tense and that it often looks like we’re fighting when we do this sort of thing, but this was a truly fun conversation for all of us. And we had a lot of laughs and insightful banter in-between the recordings. I appreciate Destiny coming into our space and being willing to not only argue, but also being willing to share his perspectives on minimalism, consumerism, and relationships. I would not only be happy to have him on the show again, but this is a guy I could enjoy arguing with and conversing with even if…there are no cameras and microphones to capture the conversation. A very different type of show for us, but man…big shout out to Destiny and our viewers/listeners for coming along for the ride and being open to the adventure. Much love!

[@happycrimson]

you guys did really well conducting this convo. judging from what destiny said on stream about this podcast, it's clear that he shares the same feelings, as well.

[@ericofficially]

big ol' dggL

[@bandit7497]

I wasn't familiar with you before but was very impressed with how clearly and quickly you were able to express your counters to Destiny off the cuff like that. Especially with regards to the taxation/test discussion.

[@pawgerz4733]

Very well spoken and good counters and points in the debate. Loved hearing you on talking to destiny

[@TheDramaticDream]

Destiny fan here, but now I’m A fan of yours too.

[@stefanrabenstein3753]

I can definitely understand why Destiny spoke so highly about his experience being on this episode

[@Now-gn1vk]

What did he say about this, clip?

[@RS-fy9hb]

@@Now-gn1vk That he really enjoyed the conversation. He was asked what was his favorite podcast to appear on when he did his mass pod appearances, and this was the one he mentioned was really interesting.

[@Lenno94]

@@Now-gn1vk He basically said that the questions, answers and rebuttals all felt meaningful and moved the conversation forward. The exact opposite of some podcasts where people are talking for hours without saying anything relevant or interesting.

[@note4note804]

It was genuinely exciting to realize an hour had come and gone like that. Most times watching Destiny debate with someone feels like you've listened to people drone on and on, only to realize it's barely been a half hour.

[@Thiired]

@@note4note804 not tryna be an ad but the partean was actually a whole better conversation than this 1 hour perceived it was.

[@stratocaster1986able]

I swear Bonelli is on every podcast on youtube

[@d_lom9253]

$$$$$$

[@nickgardner1408]

I really enjoy this because otherwise I would likely not have discovered some of the podcasts that he has been on recently on my own.

[@MichealPacitto]

DGG Stonks are rising! Time to buy!

[@Sam-zw2kp]

I didn't expect this TK guy to be a voluntaryist/ancap. Nice to see someone actually being able to defend the taxation is theft stance against Destiny. Destiny's defense is so bad imo... did he forget that value is subjective?

[@laobaba]

Great podcast! Thanks for having Destiny on! Some feedback as a first time viewer: as a headphone user the woman laughing was very loud and distracting, and honestly added as much as a laugh track (can’t stand those). I suggest either muting when you’re laughing or turning down her volume. Thanks!

[@goodolarchie]

Taxation as most people protest it is in the form of income tax. That's triggered because you earned income. You earned income because of things only made possible by taxation. It's a symbiotic relationship that, as Destiny points out, is not possible without government. As much as you are stolen from with your 1040 EZ, you are stealing from everybody else when you wake up in a building enforced by public codes, drink your glass of water that meets public standards of sanitation, take your supplements made safe by the FDA, check your messages on a network stood up by the American Military, and pull your car out of the driveway onto a public road. And that's just the first fifteen minutes of your day.

[@Lore_from_Stars]

1:10 HOLD FRAME, DO NOT SMILE

[@nickgardner1408]

Stealing Sneako’s rizz!!😂

[@Kristof_ow]

Im so used to seeing destiny debate the redpill stremers/ podcasters. its so wierd seeing him talk to someone whos actually openminded.

[@kyledodson2992]

They lock 2/3rds of their podcast behind a paywall?

[@daasnahk5058]

Will say destiny said this was one of his favorite podcasts to do recently so I can't wait to see for myself

[@jacobjeleniewski8694]

Same destiny has been talking about this for a little bit now ive looked through their catalog a few times trying to find it

[@poffpoff1]

Same!

[@TNTspaz]

With all the awful people Destiny has been talking to lately. This was a breath of fresh air. I get Destiny's whole brand is to try and make some sense out of the insane but I really miss his old teaching concepts videos

[@aSSGoblin1488]

unfortunately, this doesnt print money as much as redpill or drama content☹️

[@aSSGoblin1488]

stephen fits ryt in bcoz he is a minimalist or is not prone to conspicous consumption

[@badicusvibesimus182]

Oh my god, Destiny hasn't been on a podcast where he gets asked meaningful and unique questions since probably the Lex Fridman/Iced Coffee Hour podcasts. This is fantastic!

[@AntiTheBird]

Alex O’Conner was probably his most challenging interview if you’re interested

[@bruhdabones]

@@AntiTheBird imo Alex exposed major weak points that Destiny needs to address. Definitely an important and valuable conversation!

[@Gruso57]

​@SlurmTV Agreed. He was actually asking Alex answers to the questions he was asked lol. Which I respect from Destiny to be honest like that.

[@nickgardner1408]

What, you didn’t want him to talk to some ex-club promoter or instagram model about if body count matters for the 127th time?

[@Baggerz182]

repent to Christ God

[@DaltonDaDigga]

Hey I’m here as a fan of Destiny but I really loved what y’all talked about. Destiny has gone on so many different podcast and this is the first one I plan on watching In the future.

[@Funnywargamesman]

I'm impressed on how quickly Destiny's contender was able to let go of surface disagreements with Destiny's arguments and dig deeper. When I hear about an hour long show that is going to cover multiple HUGE issues I just roll my eyes because it's going to be the same surface level discussion. This was good

[@RS-fy9hb]

It's like a ptsd response from Destiny's many debates xD. No topic ever really gets unfolded, we just get a bunch of technicalities, unanswered questions, shift in topics and shouting matches xD. I also really enjoy just getting general insights into why Destiny thinks the way he does, especially because he's so seemingly different from myself, yet similar in some aspects.

[@LuckiestManAlive]

Can I just say how refreshing (33:00) it is to actually hear these guys properly engage with hypotheticals? No claiming "debate bro" tactics. No claiming that hypotheticals are pointless to answer. Just simple, qualifying questions to really understand the question, and answer with no hesitation. Great stuff.

[@slain4ever]

eh, I feel like tk got a bit TOO engaged in the hypothetical, and they began discussing them instead.

[@darkmoon2744]

The issue with hypotheticals is their a brain masturbation activity and passive aggressive tactic in debates. It is better to give logic, proof of said logic working and reverse enginner opposing side to get closer to thier belief so opposing side can help you get there and improve metacognition. Hypotheticals are only good for brainstorming session either solo or as group but not in debating session.

[@RanEncounter]

​@@darkmoon2744 Then you don't know how to use hypotheticals properly. Hypotheticals are a great way to show to examine ones beliefs and logic on a subject without being judgemental and/or getting their feelings out of the equation. They are also good at examining what is actually important.

[@ra1youu]

This is one of those times where a hypothetical is not necessary. I know the podcast is clipped but they should have spoken about where the money from taxes specifically goes to. There are a lot of public services that are difficult to privatise. The paved streets, public schools, healthcare (depending where you live), military, social services for the poor. Some of these were touched on but very briefly, but talking about privatisation vs nationalisation regarding taxes is far more interesting and doesn't require a random hypothetical scenario. How does one reconcile that tax is theft when there are are a need for public services? And do government(s) provide enough public services compared to how much they tax (Destiny brought up California with their high tax bracets). I think before getting into hypotheticals, the answers should be grounded into reality and then moulded into hypotheticals but that's just my thought.

[@LuckiestManAlive]

@@darkmoon2744 I would say that your perspective on the use of hypotheticals are a bit skewed then. Sure, people use them in the way you described. But a Hypothetical is one of many ways to help better understand a person's perspective. Once you have that understanding, it becomes easier to engage with their points. All depends on how the conversation is going.

[@kevinross6235]

This episode could've been way longer because the topics and the way they were approached was interesting

[@TheMinimalistsPodcast]

Agreed. Such a fun discussion. The full 3-hour conversation is on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists

[@wyattlightning6681]

​@@TheMinimalistsPodcastyeeeeah...

[@nonyabisness6306]

Taxation isn't theft because you have in fact given consent, implicitly. If you don't want to pay taxes, you are free to leave the country. It's part of the societal contract. Saying it's theft is like saying having to pay for goods is theft.

[@justifano7046]

Wouldn't that mean any situation you can simply "leave" but don't is one you implicitly consent to? Meaning every slave who didn't/doesn't run away day 1 is implicitly consenting to being enslaved? Reason I bring that up is most people can't just "leave the country" on a whim. Even though the "opportunity" is there.

[@nonyabisness6306]

​@@justifano7046 If you can leave freely then yes that's consent. If there's however pressure on you in any ways to not leave then no consent. This get's particularly fun in cases of alleged sexual assault where the victim didn't vehemently object. The issue with leaving the country is mostly that you can only leave to another country, where you still need to undergo a process of vetting usually. Interestingly there are ~14 countries without taxes in the world. so there would be options. As for slavery, most american slaves where certainly held against their will, allthough some of the better of ones essentially consented. Historically slavery and indentured servitude where often voluntary as well. It's important to note however that you can't consent to something that is illegal.

[@karljonson3287]

​@@justifano7046 Its like if you were a 40 year old living at your parents and you refuse to participate in household income. That what I hear when I hear taxation is theft.

[@vesuvius2444]

I never expected Destiny on a podcast like this but it also makes a lot of sense. He definitely has a lot of minimalist tendencies.

[@Zipperheaddttl]

​@@TubeWuselI'm no where near as clean or tidy as Destiny, but too much stuff hurts my ADHD brain for sure. I feel like it's crowding around me. I love going around with a bin bag. Unfortunately my wife and kids do not.

[@ABN2436]

This is a great convo with Destiny, I hope Ben Shapiro responds to his challenge !

[@tulaloo6526]

Destiny bought me here because I have such respect for his thought process and now I've found another place to get thoughtful conversation. Thank you for such a stimulating conversation.

[@zimmy614]

Nice debate, bros. Both debaters were respectful and debated their points thoroughly. This is 50/50 I won’t say anyone dominated.

[@faikerdogan2802]

debate ? i think it was more like an interview

[@webredraptors]

Yeah but destiny definitely got destroyed in this debate

[@firepitch5113]

​​@@faikerdogan2802because they weren't shouting at each other? What do you think a debate is?

[@faikerdogan2802]

@@firepitch5113 i think a debate is when people challenge each others opinions and try to change their minds. not just talk about their beliefs. but again i said "it was more like" not Definity like

[@temlan3042]

My favorite podcast Destiny has ever been on, so much information and interesting thoughts, great job guys, definitely a new sub.

[@kazitox]

Would love it if Destiny had TK on his stream sometime so they can have a more in depth conversation about some of these topics, super unfortunate they could only touch on these subjects very briefly, although ironically they were some of the most engaging discussions on these subjects I've seen in a long time despite the time constraint. I understand why Destiny had such positive views about his appearance on this podcast, almost nothing said was filler or unoriginal, everything seemed well thought out and well understood by all parties. Very good discussion.

[@IL_Bgentyl]

Helps when everyone is well spoken.

[@denverboyd9953]

I'm 19 minutes in and I'm extremely impressed. Destiny was right these guys never fill air. Everything they say has purpose.

[@RickDaltonHollywood]

Wow, initially only intended to watch the first 5 minutes. Ended up watching the whole hour 😅 Wonderful convo. Although I come from Destiny’s fanbase I want to acknowledge and appreciate TK’s perspective on the topics, clearly a learned man and he spoke eloquently. You guys knocked it out of the park, kudos!

[@mrbrandonmartin388]

I love when two people i watch regularly from opposite ends of the internet end up collaborating. Its so cool.

[@C.I.PATRICK]

This was a good conversation.

[@hrolfthestrange]

On the tax topic destiny should've brought up that wealth/value isn't in actuality created independently of the tax funded state(in some theoretical libertarian utopia you might say it 'could be' but it never has happened). Taxes go to police and the military which maintain order so rather than being in a hobbesian state of nature of all against all, value and wealth can be created, taxes go to roads and infrastructure that facilitate industry and travel to be able to build get wealth and value, taxes pay for regulatory bodies that maintain minimum safety standards so you don't die of bocculism as a child from poorly packaged food and taxes go to funding a great many projects that drive economic prosperity such as trade deals, incentive programs etc.. the fact that these creators have a platform on the Internet at all comes from government military projects funded by taxes, SO the parent child analogy still holds just a parent is trading shelter food life skills education to their kid and therefore might have sway over them society encapsulated in a tax funded government is the same.

[@veronicalynny]

Was super excited to see Destiny as a guest! I love his viewpoints and calm, concise ways of debating.

[@Jones-ke6bt]

It's actually funny you see him as a calm debater. I imagine him as the guy losing his shit in a discord call. Lol.

[@veronicalynny]

@@Jones-ke6bt Oh you don't have to imagine, he's that guy too sometimes. lol

[@mablo8224]

TK is so inspiring! I love his responses. Most of his first sentences I completely disagree with and then he explains it soooo well it really makes sense. I love his outlook on life.

[@THFrenchteacher]

Aren’t taxes like rent? Is rent theft? Loved this debate. While I love TK, my past experiences and thoughts aligned more with Destiny’s. Not that that means anything. I was just surprised. Great debate!

[@bartsimpson274]

Literally 😂

[@bartsimpson274]

Is ppl not wanting to pay tax but also use services / live in a Country theft?

[@HalfwayHikes]

I think where many people have a problem is the poor stewardship the government has shown with the taxes they do collect. People feel they’re not getting their money’s worth or that the government is making very poor financial decisions. People feel that their money is being wasted and/or misspent. In your analogy of rent, it would be like the landlord letting the building rot and never fixing the appliances.

[@Majorfuckinghero]

Yea, that's my question too. I feel like Taxation is more of a club membership you pay in order to be part of a larger society. If you don't want to pay taxes, you could theoretically move up into the mountains and off the grid entirely, but that also means you do not get the benefits of hospitals, roads, schools etc etc.

[@bartsimpson274]

@@Majorfuckinghero ppl act like they are intitled to society smh

[@o-dreng8778]

Taxation is not theft. It's the price you pay for living in a functioning society. If you don't want to pay taxes, you can just go into the forest and live by yourself. I mean, nobody is going to come after your money if you have none.

[@Sam-zw2kp]

Thats's not true. If you go live in the forest the government still comes after you. And you probably aren't even allowed to live in the forest. And living in the forest also doesn't mean you don't have money. And if you don't have money, they just take your stuff instead.

[@FGP_Pro]

Taxation as theft: 1. If you live in a society and use the roads and libraries and fire department and police, but you do not pay taxes, then isn't it you who is the thief? 2. With thievery you have no choice but to have your property stolen. With taxation you are free to leave the country and go somewhere more amenable to your philosophy. If you can leave and you don't, then you have given tacit approval for the taxation. And therefore it is not theft.

[@tayw6466]

I really love the thing where you guys are standing there listening to the phone, it took me a moment to realize you guys were not actually listening on that phone since its an audio recording... and then a little bit later I realized you probably aren't even listening to the audio recording its likely just some b roll edited with the audio recording over it. Then it became amazingly hilarious how intently you guys looked like you were listening. I hope that stays in the show forever. Also great convo guys... 2 years ago I had very little hope our country was ever going to start moving in the right direction again, and recently ive been seeing all these podcasts and youtube channels that are becoming popular because they just want to have civil conversations and explore topics respectfully, and now my hope is back, thanks!

[@sanaahmed4817]

@TheMinimalists I was curious when Joshua said he has an open marriage in episode 409, in a minimalist perspective, wouldn’t it be easier to have one significant other and just minimize your efforts and perfect that relationship with your spouse? Thanks for considering the Q.

[@sanaahmed4817]

@@biochemica2 I guess my understanding of minimalism is also reducing choices while working with one specific situation. So in the case of an open marriage, wouldn’t it be easier to divorce/ stay as friends and move on? No judgment here but I’m also trying to approach this from my developing understanding of minimalism.

[@kopekopekop]

It must suck to be the seat in the middle, I feel like you can only have your eyes on one person at a time and when Destiny had a time limit to answer a long question I wonder if he only looked at one side because they asked the question or because it would be weird to turn 180 to look at the other person

[@t1kosuave]

Bummer that the podcast is brhind a paywall😢

[@firefly9838]

Yeah it's frustrating

[@AtomicLegion]

When we talk about taxation being theft or our involvement in society, it's important to remember that none of use agreed to be in this society. We were born here against our will and societal rules and regulations are forced on us under threat of violence from the state. That is not freedom.

[@TH-lo8mq]

Sure, but what does true freedom look like? I don't think most people want a Mad Max lifestyle.

[@karljonson3287]

Well by that standard noone was ever free

[@Scardor]

The "Is taxation theft?" question is a bad question. The question should be "Is taxation wrong?" If you consider all theft wrong then obviously you think taxation being theft is wrong. You could technically agree with a specific definition that taxation could count as theft, but then you could easily follow up and say "but I don't think all theft is wrong" and then you would end up at the conversation anyway.

[@goodolarchie]

Okay that intro snippet kinda set me off. My mom is an actual hoarder. Six years ago, I loaded 3000lbs of old canned food, decorations, rats nests, knick knacks, etc. into a moving truck, to take to the dump. That was in one 10x11' bedroom. Now she is in a new house and she's fucking done it again. It's crippling. If you think your parents just have a lot of stuff, and hold on to things forever... until they have "lanes" through the rooms that are actually accessible, yall have no idea.

[@Zenjohnny]

Roads to drive to work: paid by taxes Cops to ensure safe roads: paid by taxes Firefighters/emergency to ensure safety of the community: paid for by taxes Education that helps me write, read, etc: paid by taxes. We do not live on private islands. We are not individuals living on our own in the woods.

[@debk6161]

If you use the highways and streets to get where you want to go and expect the fire department to show up if your house is on fire, then pay your fair share of taxes to support these things. No one lives in a totally self sufficient vacuum. Even hermits in this country are protected from invasion because of the military that is supported by taxes. Taxes are not theft. They’re an agreement between citizens in a society to provide a wide range of services and amenities. It might be best that those who disagree go find an island that is unprotected by any nation upon which to live.

[@johnnyholmes8427]

Federal, State and local governments need to start generating their own income. You can’t convince me that taxing the citizenry is the only way they know how to generate income. I’ll take it one step further than theft. Taxation is outright slavery. Generally speaking, 1 day a week, you are working for the government as slave labor. Working 40hrs a week and only getting paid for 32. So, 1 day a week, you are forced to do government slave labor. Taxation only benefits the rich, hurts the poor and destroys the middle class. Government is using taxation to create class warfare in our country. Taxation must end now!

[@ps-yk8su]

Is he a libertarian?

[@LuckiestManAlive]

I agree. I'm curious about what your rebuttal is for that meme that's been circulation that says: "The biggest scam in life: Paying taxes on money you make, takes on money you spend, taxes on things you own, which you already paid taxes on, with already taxed money".

[@dwil0311]

The easy reponse is, you're welcome to criticize how taxes are implemented or used but none of that implies that taxes in and of themselves are a scam.@@LuckiestManAlive

[@HalfwayHikes]

I think where many people have a problem is the poor stewardship the government has shown with the taxes they do collect. People feel they’re not getting their money’s worth or that the government is making very poor financial decisions. People feel that their money is being wasted and/or misspent.

[@connerpaul9401]

When you live in a society you have a to take a level of personal responsibility to maintain it otherwise you can't live in that society. The modern form if this is taxation to keep our schools running, fund police and justice systems, fix our roads etc. You can say its theft but its really like HOA fees, everyone pays in a bit to maintain the place you live, if you don't want the benefits of being in society go be a mountain man. We also tried early on in this country voluntary taxation and found it didn't work.

[@TonyStark-rw7en]

@44:27 much easier to feel free making 23k/year AFTER you've already made 6 figures/year and paid off all your liabilities and have a emergency fund and investments making you money. Someone who has always made 23k/year is in a very different place.

[@helloworld5644]

Nope nope nope ....what i have learned after the covid pandemic and the riots...and other news....is that DO NOT enter the topic realms of vaccines, gun control, politics, religion, race, police, etc etc...i only talk about the weather or what tv show im watching.... Anything else? Thats grounds for stress and frustration

[@manasesa.davila1828]

Great pod! Professional at all moments without getting a hint of boring.

[@Horsehead147]

Destiny has grown quite a bit since I first watched him.

[@DjDreamcastle]

I just got rear-ended by an idiot driver in Richmond VA. They drove off and my car is damaged. There is nothing I can do about it, but hanging out in a parking lot over night and listening to destiny do his thing definitely helps.

[@karljonson3287]

You don't HAVE to pay taxes but then if you don't want to you can go live somewhere else where you won't be part of a society. I think that's fair.

[@Atlas_Found]

Finally, Destiny has been hyping me up on this episode for a while.

[@tylercherneski1805]

Dudes definition of theft is whack. Violence does not have to be threatened to get your stuff. People csn pickpocket you, break into your shit when youre gone, use bolt cutters, lockpicks, etc and no violence is ever threatened. A guy can identity theft you and again theres no threat of violence. Like thats dumb as hell

[@opinionshurt2905]

The difference between the child doing chores at home and the housekeeper doing the same, the child has a stake in the house, the housekeeper doesn’t. It’s a social contract, same as how an adult needs to conduct themselves in a certain way in public. The house is the child’s “public”.

[@markspark7347]

My main problem with the wealth re-distribution argument by Destiny, is that it does not work like that. If you take 300K from a millionaire and give it to 9 non millionaires, simply the prices of cars, food and electricity will go up due to inflation. Elon musk only has 1 iphone, only drives 1 car or 1 plane, and therefore he hardly impacts inflation on gasoline or phones, for instance. However if you were to redistribute his billions to the rest of society, people would dramatically increase the miles they drive, the frequency of upgrading their phones etc, until a new equilibrium is formed by a new break-even point at a much higher price, due to inflation, due to increase in money supply. So actually nothing would change after this new break-even point has been found. That's why I'm against redistributing wealth without considering these implications.

[@keirscott-schrueder5625]

TK argues that taxation is theft, that to create value (society) through tax, theft must be enacted on individuals. However, how did those individuals garner money to be stolen by the government in the first place? A society needed to be in place to first acquire wealth, in the same token, wealth needs to first be taken to create value. I would therefore classify taxation as an exchange rather than theft.

[@maribethvance9958]

I've been been married to my husband for 27 years. He is an agnostic, Democrat, and lives completely in the moment with no looking back at past or planning for the future. I, however am a Christian, Republican, who has spreadsheets on top of spreadsheets plotting retirement and am constantly reflecting on the past and looking toward the future, goal setting, etc., sometimes forgetting to enjoy the now. I think we epitomize loving someone despite differences. Although it is very difficult at times. We tend to avoid some topics....

[@tarawright7950]

TK is so easy to listen to. He seems to respond intentionally and without emotion. I value his input.

[@MyANTHEMS]

You have a new sub, I hope this doesnt impact your minimalist approach.

[@Martin-er9kq]

I do hoarding clean ups for work and man it’s really sad and it’s a mental sickness that can vary from comical to this person needs a huge wake up call

[@limitbreak2966]

34:04 yea like they use roads and services paid for by taxes, and the complain taxes is stealing, could make the same argument t

[@oli.r7697]

Oh, Christopher Wallken and Lous Gosett Jr. are having a podcast together. How nice! But who is the guest?

[@benw_]

"define theft as the use of violence... to forcible extract something from another party". This seems a weak definition of theft. Is forcibly taking something back from someone theft, if they took it from you first? If it's only forcible extraction for something legitimately owned, what defines legitimate ownership? I'd argue that it's only theft if you've taken something from someone who lawfully owns the thing, and in a democracy, lawful ownership requires some level of consensus of the populace. I do not believe there is any "ownership" or "property" without the agreement of those with power, and hopefully that's a democratic body.

[@karljonson3287]

He's saying its theft at the point of him paying taxes. But before that he used stuff that those taxes are used for.

[@bloink3511]

Thank god he didn’t bring up Dogwarts

[@roborob4000]

I like the person in the background with the laugh.

[@qonitabadegestm9989]

37:09 "voluntary" um. when will exploiters realize that *children can't give consent!*

[@wandarah]

It depends what they're giving consent about. Children in my country are taught consent (not sexual, obviously) from about age 5.

[@qonitabadegestm9989]

@@wandarah no it doesn't "depend" exploiter. you're enslaving 5 year old children on The premise that they consent and they cannot bc _they're children_ . nO discussion

[@niarose6435]

It's difficult for a European person to understand why an American would consider taxes a theft.

[@aClownBaby-]

Probably because we in Europe actually see the money getting back to us. Maybe the US is just spending it on garbage and military. Who knows.

[@user-sungirum]

Having bureaucrats dictate how much of my earnings they can retain is unfair. Where is the consent?

[@ShinGarugamesh]

i miss Xena popping into vc at incongruent moments of the debate to bring up either christ, the jews, or witchcraft.

[@kopekopekop]

31:10 so are all fines or monetary punishments for breaking laws also theft? I guess in this case it would be, but the usual definition of theft specifically states the taking is against the law, and in the case of taxes or fines it’s not illegal, I guess it’s just different definitions Also say a kid steals a package from your porch, I guess since it’s non violent it doesn’t count as theft?

[@Chris-il5im]

Good convo guys, thanks!

[@nihilean]

great guest, great hosting, great conversation. thanks guys!

[@chriscrowhurst]

I am challenged by this notion that I can't run down the street naked, it feels so good every time I do it. 'merica....

[@malikshabazz2065]

Heck yeah! Destiny is awesome, glad you had him on. :-)

[@MOME914]

The value of currency is created by the government and the fact that it taxes. The government owns the money they are not stealing when they tax us. We don’t own the money.

[@-Sparagmos-]

35:02 right, but we’re talking about an action that’s literally needed in order to keep society functioning. The reason why you’re able to make any money at all is because other people that came before you paid into the system which then laid the groundwork for you to be able to work.

[@2Whatson3]

What's up with the Roaches? Is that something that you like?

[@jeremyking9094]

You guys have a nice operation going on here. I love the look and feel of the show!

[@josephhampton8966]

Destiny and TK are both class acts. Love the smooth transitional conversation leading from Joshua too. Wish you guys the best in the future.

[@todorstoynov2362]

Destiny fan here. Just wanted to express my appreciation for T.K. This was the first conversation I've seen on objective morality in a long time where the person that believes in objective morality has made me think and reconsider. I am still processing, so Idk if I will end up changing my mind, but we'll see. I do think, tho, that the "taxation is theft" convo turned into a semantics disagreement pretty fast, so most of it was a bit boring.

[@psychamicahttv]

I've been a listener of destiny & hasan for many years now & I must say I admire destiny's presentation so much better these days compared to hasans. Hasan may have more progressive ideologies I agree with but the way he isolates himself & his community to just cuss out anyone who disagrees or will just be like "suck my d1ck" to anyone who disagrees where as Destiny gives a full detailed description of his perception while simultaneously explaining why he understands the counter argument is just a breath of fresh air. The whole point of debating is to be iron sharpening iron regardless if they completely agree or not but most debaters I watch just turn into shouting matches that don't create any solutions, only more division. The part where destiny speaks about relentless compassion is so accurate too. Relentless compassion towards wanting to help the poor & working class is completely justified but not in more personal terms like my mother who is relentlessly compassionate about my sister who is a heavy drug addict & hasn't worked in 15+ years & basically has been paying for majority of her bills which enabled her to think she can continue with this lifestyle since our mother sees no problem with it. Very well said & very relieving to see good faith/intentioned debates, again I don't agree with either destiny or hasans politics completely but this type of debating is the best direction they should all go for.

[@fillefjong]

41:30 I would love to see the those "creative individuals" create this "independent value" without a functioning infrastructure. Internet, electricity, transportation, law, property rights...."You're welcome! Best regards - the State"

[@radscorpion8]

So I think there is a vastly simpler argument against the moral realist perspective being proposed by TK, his argument is one of the most common defenses. But the issue is it is not properly analogous to perceiving things with our eyes. In the case of perceiving a chair, we know it can't merely be in our brain, because we can all independently agree on its location, and if the chair appears in different spatial locations, it doesn't make sense for it to be encoded in all of our brains in all those changing locations, along with all of the infinite variations, like if someone turned the chair and then everyone agreed the chair was turned. For that it makes the most sense to agree that the chair objectively exists in external reality and our sense organs help us to perceive it. But with moral values, the same argument simply doesn't apply, and you can easily postulate that the moral responses people have are all the same because we basically have the same DNA and the same brain structure, so as a result of that brain structure, we will have nearly identical responses to similar moral situations. There is no reason to think that those moral responses need to exist outside of the brain as a chair does. This is basically a completely unnecessary supposition that only overcomplicates the existing hypothesis. So by Occam's razor alone you could just say, the simpler hypothesis is more likely until we get some clear evidence to show the existence of an objective moral quality above and beyond what you would expect from having a similar human brain. Besides this it really is an incomprehensible and somewhat silly answer. What does an "objective realm of morality" really mean? Where does it exist? According to what laws does it operate? And why exactly are we taking this realm to have the objectively correct values to begin with? It all seems rather silly and fantastical, almost like magic...which makes it hard to take seriously even apart from the previous argument.

[@confounded_feline]

I think if you start with: can we agree with the presupposition that without being as humans, as with animals and including animals. There is nothing to ground idea of morality in because there is no reference value without an observer or actors to engage in actions where morality can be adjudicated upon. We live in a world of a broad objective morality that is downstream from our biology. Primitive morality has been observed in the behaviours of various animals with commonalities across different taxonomic levels that include shared moral actions which we also partake in. Under that umbrella we get into a space that is close to what destiny talks about that can be seen in some cases to look like an objective morality. However, I believe this is informed by the objective level that is rooted in biology and emergent social behaviour selected for its fitness in a Darwinian sense. When we get into the general morality in the sense of the one we all tend to talk about, it becomes subjective where again, like destiny said can look more or less like a facsimile of an objective moral truth. The human consciousness is dynamic because it allows us to do many things, a primary one being to play out hypothetical scenarios and contend with them and then discard or keep them without having to necessarily act those out which separates us from other animals. This allows a broad breadth of interpretation of events, actions and behaviours that we can ascribe moral value to of which we will not all agree. This leaves us in the subjective realm. Ultimately you could conclude from my position “but that means it is subjective!” Well yes it is, but it’s not strictly subjective all the time. Maybe the subjectivity is superordinate in terms of the value of how we discuss these things for you. However I’d argue that I think it’s useful to understand that there can be more nuance to this that we can tie back to a firmer grounding in some cases which makes the question much more interesting to explore. Pragmatically speaking, most of the time, I think that Destiny’s point of view is a good working model that you’ll want to go with without getting down more rabbit holes of discussion that can digress off into a philosophical circle jerk.

[@benlast8193]

Im only 15mins in and it feels like an hour has gone past, but in a good way. You guys have figured out how to say so much in so little time, something people tend to have the other way around.

[@jcruise333]

Such a great podcast but I do wonder why this point on taxes being theft is never brought up. It’s not theft because you do consent, by living in the United States. You drive on the roads provided by the government and can get a free education from the government. But if you don’t want what the government provides you can leave, so there’s no theft at all really. But what a great discussion

[@MegaMrASD]

Calling taxes theft is kinda weird. If you participate in society then you owe society. Infrastructure isn’t free, so if you use it, you gotta pay for it. The government isn’t forcibly taking what you own, they are making you pay what you owe for “using” the country you live in. Wether that be roads you use to go to work, the cleaning of all public areas so you don’t have to live in a dump, keeping public parks alive so you at least have some oxygen around and a place to go get some sun perhaps etc. if anything if you aren’t paying your taxes you are a freeloader.

[@karljonson3287]

It would be theft if he lived somewhere where he's not using streets, electricity, police, etc.

[@MegaMrASD]

@@karljonson3287true, but if you are using 0 infrastructure then you are probably making 0 money and living off the land so you wouldn’t be paying taxes

[@dogma4593]

I think a better way of looking at taxation is like the entry fee for movie theater. You have to pay the fee to get inside, everyone does. If you somehow end up inside the theater accidentally, the owner of the theater isn't stealing from you if he asks you to pay the entry fee. If you don't want to pay, you're not entitled to the benefits of being in the theater, and you should leave. Arguably, if you don't want to pay taxes you can "leave" society by not having a job and growing everything you consume by yourself, without spending money. It's not easy by any means, which is why we have societal infrastructure in the first place, so that everyone doesn't need to go chop down trees to build shelter and hunt and gather for food. Enjoying the benefits of our society's advancements means you need to chip in. It's not theft, it's a fee that we need to enforce to have a society at all.

[@dcgamer1027]

34:50 I dont think I agre with this point, I think I am moreon the side of taxation is not theft. We agree that its not theft to breath the oxygen around us because no one owns it, but I feel like we are then begging the question of what makes you think you own the oxygen tank either? Sure if you had a job, made money, then bought the oxygen tank we would say you own in and other people can't steal it, but the only reason any of that is true is because of society existing in the first place. You 'own' it because the government say so, people cant 'steal' it because the government and police say so and will stop you from taking it or force you to bear consequences for doing so after the fact. All of these systems, from the industry that produced the oxygen tank to the police who enforce the law only exist due to the society that contains them. Therefore, much as the oxygen in the air, you are not entitled or truly 'own' any of the benefits of that system unless you are willing to be a part of it and pay the very thing that keeps it all functioning, taxes. Taxiation is not theft because by virtue of even 'owning' something you must buy into the larger system. I suppose at the end of the day it doesn't really matter since its just a matter of pragmatism to have taxes, without taxes we don't have free access roads and the like.

[@chpgmr1372]

I wouldnt say most Americans are hoarders. More of unaware of just how much junk they have collected over the years and have forgot about and arent too concerned about getting rid of it because there is a spot for it out of the way. The average American house size just keeps increasing giving people more space to put their junk to forget about.

[@AnGeLaOYA]

Chores as child abuse 😆... you are responsible for raising your children to be responsible adults period. If you don't have your children be responsible for anything that's a sad future entitled adult who will have to learn the hard way... that would be child abuse.

[@firefly9838]

It's hard staying clean in an apartment when your neighbors aren't and so it still attracts bugs.

[@Joederk]

18:34 Such a great point. Its like being the best Halo player between your 10 friends but online play opens up and u suck at it 90% the time. Its good if u dont give up when u feel foolish in a conversations. Its a learning experience. DONT MAKE YOUR FIRST DEBATE ON A LARGE LIVE STREAM plzzzzz

[@Scardor]

Why do some Americans say "end-all-be-all" instead of "be all end all"? When you end all first there's nothing to be anymore so you can't be all anymore. The saying is about being your everything and also finishing your everything. You cannot do it in the opposite order, this is so weird. Then again I have noticed it also with Americans sometimes saying "Whitey tighties" instead of "Tighty whities" and even "would've could've should've" instead of "could've, should've, would've". I wonder where this unnecessary and sometimes corrosive rearranging comes from. 🤔

[@anthraxcrab2222]

I want more of this guy

[@Subzearo]

Oh, they have Destiny on here. Oh, Destiny's just showed up to my house to debate me, and he's brought a camera too. I don't even remember arranging that, but ok.

[@yincycle]

I wish you guys could have given Destiny the last word on a couple things, given that he’s your guest. It was a great conversation so it’s not the biggest deal but just a small criticism

[@amelaine82]

The point of chores is different than the taxation. children don't have a say in their chores. Even if they do have a say, it's only because the parents allow it. Adults in society have a say in taxation because we vote for representatives. It is the consent of the governed. Jusst look at the citizenry voting for low or not state taxes in some states and higher taxes in others.

[@fecklessman]

these clips of you guys holding and holding up an old phone that is not plugged in and pretending to be listening to someone talk are sooooo awkward.

[@denverboyd9953]

Specifically watched this because destiny said you were great

[@d_lom9253]

Good stuff, Destiny fit in just right for this convo

[@briannyagah1159]

how is taxation theft while its the way you are paying in to that society, yeah being taxed is irritating but without a govt running on tax revenue to ensure the society you doing business in is sustained how will you even do business....in some form of way tax is what you pay for the society you are in

[@jameverywhere]

Destiny is such an excellent guest