Devil Weapons and Weapon Drawbacks in Fire Emblem: History, Analysis and Speculation

[@Luigiofthegods]

All my homies love getting 8 WEXP every time they miss the Slim Sword Myrmidon in a forest in The Dread Isle

[@rosheafan]

Isn't wexp doubled when you miss an attack?

[@akirasou]

Nah but the real great moment is getting Devil Axe crit backfired on you on a real low hit Also for Salts: no, I don't think so? In FE7, you get doubled WExp for a killing blow, maybe that's what you're thinking of?

[@rosheafan]

@@akirasou I knew that as well, I think I was just misinformed about that.

[@akirasou]

@@rosheafan makes sense, it happens!

[@athyestic8374]

RE the last question: Souls of the Forest does something really interesting with the Devil's Axe, giving it's wielder *4x* speed and luck, having a brave effect, and having 1-2 range. But it only has 16 uses, and if a unit breaks the devil axe they die instantly. You get your first one really early on (like c2), and don't get another for a fair bit (wanna say c16). It's an incredibly powerful tool, but you're forced to use it sparingly due to its severe potential drawback. SOTF in general though has really high numbers, and that helps a weapon as absolutely stupid as the devil axe balance itself.

[@akirasou]

Ehehe the thing that Retina also mentioned in the Akiracord! It sounds absolutely hilarious. SOTF sounds like a really funny hack in general, I definitely have to add it to the list and get around to it... at some point. I have no idea how long this will realistically take me lol, but hopefully I'll continue making videos for a while yet :>

[@ImportedCheese]

What happened to Dorcas?! I put a Devil Axe in his inventory... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[@akirasou]

How convenient!

[@MythrilZenith]

Fates does actually have self-damaging weapons - Berserker Axe is one of them. It deals 30% of user's max HP to the user after combat, so it works similar to the self-damaging weapons in 3H. The Devil Axe is a classic risk vs reward weapon design and is something of an icon in Fire Emblem. I personally have an odd love-hate relationship with it - I love the concept, and use it in streamed runs when I just NEED the extra damage, but when playing for myself and trying to keep everyone alive it always ends up as nothing more than convoy filler, as I'm rarely in a position where the extra damage is worth potentially killing my own unit. Giving the player an absurdly poweful weapon like the devil axe only really makes sense if you do it early on, hence I feel the initial implementation of the devil axe being given in chapter 3 of FE1 is probably one of the best ones - especially when going into something like FE11 H5, the massive burst of power the devil axe gives is a useful tool, worth the potential backfire. Something else I've commented on in the past is how the devil axe makes a lot more sense in the DS FE games, FE11 and FE12, because it has 100 base accuracy. The "miss chance" thus becomes its backfire rate, at least compared to other axes which usually have significantly lower accuracy. I think the classic style devil axe could very well make a comeback in a game with the turnwheel - it already makes using the shadow sword a potentially better choice (though being able to turn the shadow sword into a brave sword for 50 silver ended up always being the best use for it). Here's to hoping we get either this or a more interactive drawback in the future.

[@rosheafan]

bro did not watch the video before commenting...

[@akirasou]

Ah I did actually mention the Berserker Axe in the video, though it was briefly and in passing. Still, thanks for your thoughts! Makes sense for sure to use it more in streamed runs where you need it - other than like, having used the Devil Axe FE8 mod for this footage, I think that I would be much the same in that I would only actually use it if it were content, i.e. it's for the channel The Archanea context is really interesting to me, since I'm not far into FE1 and then I haven't played either FEs 11 or 12 yet, I seem to be saving DSFE for last after completing all of FEs 1, 5 and 10. For sure though the high accuracy sounds great as an upside, especially if the other axes are markedly less accurate. Increases the chances of you ultimately injuring yourself after all, which I guess is half the point lol And yeah, I would be curious as to the implementation of another classic Devil Axe-esque weapon. The kinds of damage numbers that you could inflict on yourself sounds funny... it reminds me of Sceptistar's Etie Warrior video where she deals like 1536 damage or something, but imagine it backfiring and basically liquefying yourself

[@coldjolteon5799]

I really wish you mentioned the TLP devil axe They give it 20 crit and 28 might. It is extremely dangerous to use, but absolutely hilarious

[@akirasou]

Oh that does sound absolutely hilarious, danggggggg. I haven't played TLP yet, it's on my long list of FE games to play! I've been told by a friend that the first two thirds are a lot of fun, and then the last third is deeply painful lol, do you agree with that assessment?

[@coldjolteon5799]

@@akirasou I did a 0% LTC so my views are... Tainted? Yes, the game is very solid, and the first ten chapters are stupid with lots of side objectives and sidequests that are just never told to the player, but it's fun. Some of the units are extremely well designed and others are very fun (lethality berserker lethality berserker) and few units are outright bad. It's overall enjoyable

[@akirasou]

@@coldjolteon5799 ah I feel that, in the reverse sense since 100% and all, the Oops All Archers and Sacred Echoes runs thus far have definitely affected my views on the original hacks (and even slightly for vanilla FE8 in the case of the former), though I do try to not let them affect them too much I digress. Sounds like it's worth checking out then for me at some point. Very eventually: the list of FE games is long, I haven't even finished playing all of the mainline games yet, and then there are the Kaga Saga games, and a bunch of other hacks, on top of any small self-edits that I make for actual video content... so uh. No promises on that being anytime soon lol

[@coldjolteon5799]

@@akirasou that's entirely fair lol. If you get around to it eventually I can answer any questions you may have

[@akirasou]

@@coldjolteon5799 thanks for the offer, if I do and I have any, I may take you up on that :D

[@bronzeblade776]

I just thought of a funny idea for devil weapons: give them a perish song effect where after the wielder and foe engaged in combat where a devil weapon was used, both parties are inflicted by "perish song" where they have a set number of turns to survive before they instantly die. Not only would this make a great boss-killer weapon in a pinch (in exchange for a unit's life) but would also force the player to be more tactical with who should use devil weapons and who should fight the one beserker with a devil weapon and maybe seize the map as quickly as possible afterwards (or replacable friend moment)

[@akirasou]

Oooooooooo that does sound funny, especially since both units dying means that any experience and droppable items from the enemy it's used against would be lost... That for sure sounds like a singular weapon that's better off in player hands, because I'm just imagining a horde of enemies with those and it sounds. Awful to experience. Unless of course, the idea is a playable cutscene where everyone is meant to die, in which case, it's boring to watch lol

[@seasaltsky]

this would be so stupid in Fates where you can capture generics, cause you could give this to a weak generic you don't care about and instantly kill someone lmao. great idea btw

[@kayoh9364]

Heroes also has Fury and similar skills... Sure hope they havent been powerecrept to oblivion over the last couple of years I havent been keeping up.

[@akirasou]

Having never touched Heroes except to download the Heroes items for Engage before they just made it a free bonus that anyone can download at any time... I'm sure that they've been both powercrept and also had further iterations improving on them lol

[@lordmudkip7344]

Warped units getting their stats reduced or having all of their items sent to convoy could make sense. The former would be because warping is hard and the latter would be the "you can only warp living beings" thing like some shows have with time travel. I kinda like having defenses reduced, as then it can still be used to save a unit from danger or sending a unit to kill a single enemy that's targeting someone, but it's hard to have them be a boss killer

[@akirasou]

The idea of literally convoy warping the warpee's items sounds funny, I kinda love it! Or yeah, you're completely right that you could debuff the person being warped rather than the warper, or even both. Ahhhh thinking about how to limit Warp in some way is a lot of fun and there are loads of potential ways of doing it, thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[@muddak3292]

I wanted to click the Like button, but unfortunately it slapped me through the screen. My funeral is next week. Apologies

[@akirasou]

Understandable, it nearly happened to me last Tuesday but I Devil Reversal'ed it back to the screen. We can bury my screen and your corpse together

[@actuallizard]

I tried to click this video, but I hurt myself with my devil mouse.

[@akirasou]

Lizard this is why trackpad gaming is real, Devil computers aren't real and they can't hurt you

[@g.n.s.153]

Great video. You probably don't play Heroes since it wasn't mentionned but since romhacks are allowed I doubt it'll be an issue to bring up what IS has been doing in the mobile game. There's skills that deals non-lethal damage to you after combat (like Barst's prf weapon the Devil Axe), skills that lowers some of your stats to get others like Life and Death (+7 Atk and Spd -5 Def and Res) or Still Water (+7 Atk and Res -5 Def) or units that either debuffs their allies or deal huge chunk of damage (non-lethal) to them after combat. Bernadetta for sure would love to lack a crest but I think that's what fun about 3H's balancing. How effective it really was is debatable but I enjoy that crestless units get a mechanic that you can exploit as a player. Crests have their advantages but no crests doesn't mean you don't have some options as well. Devil Weapons in their most common iteration take Fire Emblem's rng to the extreme which can be fun but I think most people prefer when you always deal with the consequence but they're not so directly lethal. That being said I didn't like it in Fates when there's just so much going on and so many drawbacks everywhere. It's fun when it stays situational for me.

[@akirasou]

I'm glad that you enjoyed it! You're correct that I don't play Heroes, so thanks for the additional detail! Those do sound like interesting things that they've done in Heroes. It's my understanding that we got some neat things like Reposition from Heroes, so it would be interesting if they ported more cool mechanics over... without the paragraphs long descriptions, hopefully Yeah, definitely there's the question of how useful the Relic backfire effect really is when you can just have Bernie nearly die in a round of combat anyway to set up Vengeance. As you said though, it is still good though that Crestless units can leverage something, especially since Crests (for the most part, Raging Storm is the obvious exception) don't confer similar advantages to FE4's Holy Blood That makes perfect sense! It's taken me a while to get used to Fates' way of doing things because it is. A lot. And requires thinking about benchmarking for specific things I find. So you definitely have to be in a specific mood for it, or at least I do

[@steel19812]

Let's watch and learn from Master Akira.

[@akirasou]

You're too kind ;^; thanks as always for your continued interest, I really appreciate it!

[@peterh2223]

5:50 I would like to note that, for the proper Ranged Brave weapons [Soldier’s Knife, Crescent Bow, and Snake Spirit], the offensive stats of the user are halved, like the 1 range S rank weapons

[@akirasou]

Thanks for pointing that out! Fates isn't my FE game of specialty so I greatly appreciate it :D

[@plentyofpaper]

I'd love to see more widespread drawbacks toyed around with agai. I think Fates had a good idea, and I also love the Wt/Con system. I wouldn't mind seeing these systems mixed a bit. We can give each weapon a scaling, variable drawback that depends on different stats. Each weapon could have a base stat rating, and a penalty for falling short. Something ilke: Devil Weapons: Base 30 luck. 1% backfire per luck short. Throwing Weapon: Base 10 Dex: -4 hit per Dex short. Steel Weapon: Base 12 Str: -1 speed per strength short Brave Weapon: Base 30 HP: -4 Avo per HP short Just some examples of the type of thing that could be done. I'm not proposing these specific examples would be ideal.

[@akirasou]

Yeah, that kinda system could definitely be cool, thanks for commenting with the idea! Something that I think could be interesting in that type of system is something that penalises you for having a stat too high, or rather gives you a bonus for having a low stat value. Maybe like a Tome that gives a bonus for units with really low Str in a game with the Str/Mag split, or a Slim weapon that gives a bonus for low Con units (thus giving something like the Slim Sword a reason to exist)

[@plentyofpaper]

​@@akirasou That's an interesting idea, but I think there's something of a fundamental flaw. The issue is that a stat penalizing system makes a weapon worse as the game progresses. This is already handled by introducing progressively more powerful weapons, and by giving characters more con (or other stats in my example) so that they can effectively use these weapons. So this system actually seems redundant to me. As for the slim sword, it can have a reason to exist in the existing system, but no characters have been designed that can take advantage of it. In Engage, the slim sword has 1 weakness (Mt) and 3 strengths (Wt, hit and dodge.) The strengths are sadly overkill compared to the iron sword. Dodge isn't an issue early game, and only Celine and Alear take speed penalties from the Iron Sword (Alear takes her own weapon to circumvent this.) In theory, if we added a unit with 3 Con, excellent strength, terrible luck, terrible skill, decent speed, and decent bulk, the slim sword could be useful. Alternatively, a very low con slowish but pretty tanky unit could get some use out of it. Alfred and Vander actually get good use out of the slim lance and compact axe to avoid being doubled.

[@naotoueda2838]

After watching the new ideas section: What about a infinite use strong siege tome that lower 1 level after each use and also give +5% mov growth and in a game that units have good growths (usually 60% or higher or important stats and 30 to 40% in other stats)? I have this idea because Berwick (of course kaga did it first) has a tome that decrease target's XP (can also cause level down), so the idea is decreasing user's XP or level

[@akirasou]

Kaga moment reallllllllll. If it decreases the user's level, I'm guessing that they can also lose stats in a way similar to negative growths? And does that mean that it's possible you can lose Mov as well?

[@naotoueda2838]

@@akirasou yep My idea is a strong siege tome that makes your unit worse and worse

[@akirasou]

@@naotoueda2838 this sounds great, I'm a fan! I really do need to give the Kaga games a go... so in other words, I need to hustle my way through the last remaining games!

[@MrMarket1987]

Fun fact: Devil Axe does exist within the code of Path of Radiance (as shown in the video) and will sorta work, but unlike the fully functioning Bright Bow it is buggy if used with non-Occult animations, and appears to NOT have the reversal effect. Awesome design otherwise, and will function for attacks with just the overworld animations instead. But if you're gonna hack in a strong Axe, you might as well go for the unused Urvan instead at that point... Otherwise, I prefer the idea of Devil Axes weakening HP per use, no matter what. They are meant to be risky, and I feel what they could have to make them actually reasonably risky is to Drain HP down to 1 before even making the first swing; _Even if it is the enemy striking first, entering combat with it equipped will reduce your HP to 1 immediately._ That gives it a near constant level of risk in exchange for its immense raw power, forces the player to have an actual risk/reward position laid out for them and not just making it easy to farm healing on, and takes away the stupid randomness of suddenly hitting or critting yourself (or an enemy) into oblivion. Maybe code it so that it being used prevents someone else from just coming in and trading it away for a safe heal or something till the next Player Phase. Also, no reason Warp can't just decrease all stats for a turn. A percentage amount ought to work, like a reverse Resolve or something. One thing the EN dub of PoR did amazing on was depict Black Knight being weakened by Warp Powder as opposed to just plain holding back against Ike when they fought each time.

[@akirasou]

Ohhhh that's fascinating, thanks for the information! And ooooo a huge HP downside sounds interesting, plus I could see it being taken advantage of kinda nicely in more Skill-focused games like 3H as able to set up Vantage/Wrath builds etc, so I like the idea! And yes, I've been told about the JP RD thing about the warp powder. It sounds. Wild, is all I'll say on it, though it would be justification for Warp going and decreasing all stats for a turn

[@MrMarket1987]

@@akirasou Yeah, could work out in games where HP dependent skills would synergize well with it... While leaving you with paper-thin survivability if even 1 damage can be dealt onto ya. At least that is something you can plan around though, I'm just not a fan of vanilla or hacks making it so you can still screw yourself over on a stray crit or hit. Even Roms that just let you overcome the Luck threshold is enough for me, cause I know that's not usually easy to do and gives you a potent if heavy weapon in the process.

[@MrMarket1987]

@@akirasou Also, small correction. Backfire rate in PoR SEEMS to work with _only_ the overworld animations. But the rate really seems to depend on who you ask. Could be 31 or 41 given the superior cap. Hard to wanna test it out when it's not quite working as intended to begin with, but it could always make its way into a silly run with just axewielders, and debugging to make someone like Ashnard vulnerable to them.

[@maverick5169]

Ima use a 3h plot point and imagine a devil weapon with something around 20 hp non lethal drawback but with a hidden negative counter. So something like 38 hp unit uses the weapon Now it's 18 Now it's 1 hp but with the negative 2h hp counter Use the weapon again, it's -22 hp and so on And if by the end of the map you exceed a certain number, let's say 25 hp, the unit becomes a monster/demon/whatever that you have to kill. Or maybe permamently apply a Shadow Pokemon effect from the gamecube game, a cursed unit that cannot get exp anymore but also has some benefits like negated effectiveness if it's a mount rider/armor unit. Would be nice to make a full undead/cursed army, but maybe this is me being a psycho

[@akirasou]

You're still kinder than me about having to kill units - in various conversations I've had in different servers, I've said before that I think it would be very cool if a non-Crest unit uses a Relic at all, they turn right into a Demonic Beast and you're required to kill them. Or sure, hit 0 HP and "die" works too The Shadow Pokemon-esque effect sounds baller though, it does sound like the kind of thing that Edelgard would make use of in non-Crimson Flower routes... if Revenants and similar existed in Fodlan, I imagine that the Agarthans would have some weird tech to be able to manipulate them

[@maverick5169]

@@akirasou Aren't Nemesis' soldiers basically revenants?

[@akirasou]

@@maverick5169 .....you're right, dang. Okay, never mind then lmfao, I just forgot that Verdant Wind was a route in that game lolllllllllllllll

[@gabekuzunohathexvii4872]

giving Devil Whim to the jeigan is somthing me and mt friend did altough mainly as a joke lmao

[@Noahs_Chair]

I think Warp staffs fundamentaly are too strong for a downside to stop it. If Warp backfire reset because it's turn 1 most of the time. And the Magic Nerf doesn't change much since the main reason is that warp will end the map. I think Warp is a case where there is no middle ground in their implementation. I think you have to accept it will break the game in good players hands or you remove all together. Respect other drawbacks. I think DS hit the perfect point of the Devil Weapon as a weapon specially since the high hit basically turns the miss chance into backfire chance. Respect Fates downsides. I think most of them were interesting although I feel Silver was too much. I feel Silver already has a big drawback with the rank requiriment itself. I like the Brave downside thought, keep it good to remove 1 hard enemy but not allowing it to just be the best melee weapon in every way in EP (Both the only working on PP and -4 Def/Res).

[@akirasou]

Oh definitely Warp will invariably break the game in whatever form it's present in. Still, I do like the Mag nerf idea especially, since I think our immediate tendency to always still use Warp is shaped by an LTCing perspective, where it's just always worth it if you have the uses at your disposal for the long haul In a more casual, still quick run though, I think it could have an interesting impact, because for instance the big Warpskip in FE8 requires 20 Mag, which you can do with Saleh if you give him two Energy Rings, but if Warp decreased your Mag by 2 after each use, then for the other Warpskips you would need to have made sure to have gotten someone else to Warp rank so that they can eat the Mag debuff instead. Which is, to be fair, very easy to do, but it does require a bit more thought, which is something that I enjoy when Warpskipping maps personally Fates Silvers are interesting because while I do get the gripe that people have with them in terms of the rank requirement and then also the debuff after usage, they can still be really useful even when not being utilised directly in the form of stronger Attack Stance Dual Strikes that don't debuff the user. So I do still ultimately like them in the end

[@Noahs_Chair]

@@akirasou I agree LTC mentality is probably afecting how I see warp. My take respect is that Warp in a more casual playthrough is perfectly fine as is, but I could see the -2 Magic debuff resulting in interesting prep making. Silver still works on Fates because that might and hit will always find a use regardless of how small it is. But I feel such a credit investment and rank requiriment you deserve a higher reward than a niche weapon. I think one of Fates biggest problems is ranks B-S don't do much and I feel like Silver being more generally aplicable would make B rank more impactfull. Same with S since S rank weapons have availability and class issues (and also existing issues).

[@akirasou]

@@Noahs_Chair yeah that's definitely fair! Part of me being interested in the idea is definitely wondering how it would affect the casual run context. Like in 3H, Warp could very much be used less if if permanently reduced your Mag by 2 after each use. But then of course, the greenhouse does exist, so if you did really want to, you can still offset it. So that kind of hypothetical is very interesting to me That makes sense as well. I have to admit though, I don't mind it for the Silvers at least? S Rank weapons are a different can of worms, but I don't dislike it when you have to think more about the use cases of higher rank weapons. Plus it kinda makes sense to me that a weapon that requires more weapon skill rank to use, also requires more skill to get good usage out of, it that makes sense?

[@Noahs_Chair]

@@akirasou TBH, That's more 3Hs tools being so absurd any downside you to put into something can be completly ignore. I get were you are comming from. I think it's more just what each of us want out of these weapons. I want a permanent reward for reaching a high benchmark, while you want a new tool to solve specific problems. Dif but equaly valid aproaches.