GET FAST NOT STRONG (Praising Trebuchet Disc Golf)

[@sarinhighwind]

Yes, Let the torso turn. Throwing your weight doesn't make the shot more powerful.

[@dgspindoctor]

It makes it slower, and it FEELS more powerful because you USE MORE POWER.

[@corrinradd9235]

But there is a weight shift and it’s important? This is confusing.

[@dgspindoctor]

@@corrinradd9235 This is a drill. A drill means you emphasize one portion of the shot. This is how you learn to throw.

[@jannejaakkola5836]

Great to see Trebouchet get some love. His production value might not be the highest, but he has one of the best feels and understanding on what body does in athletic movement.

[@billbittick]

Awesome to see Owen at TDG get some love. He does some really good instruction.

[@dgspindoctor]

Agreed!

[@ubrant6747]

My 2 favorite coaches! ❤

[@OkieTradez]

one of your best videos imo

[@dgspindoctor]

Thanks!

[@jakemiller270]

I use the Matt Orum style throw now since it is the easiest way to set the disc on the line without overthinking things. Your video explaining that swing style totally changed my game for the better.

[@danieloestreicher2157]

Which video is that?

[@datrucksdavea2080]

ty, this is one of the hardest ideas to develop, I'll keep working on it. Have had some improvement.

[@zaceitel2944]

Awesome! My two favorite online coaches in one video!

[@ScottSmith-vc5vf]

Really appreciate what you are sharing. My throwing is slowly changing for the better. I played a woods coarse yesterday and I’m parring holes that I’ve never par’s before and I had some birdie chances. I’m getting 30 feet farther or more and I’m not trying to throw harder. No grunting involved. lol. I’m focusing on speed and getting the disc in the pocket. Next I’ll start working with this video

[@dgspindoctor]

Thanks! Next time add some grunts and see what it does! 😉

[@Baphelon]

these drills make a lot of sense to me. if I can manage to lock up and resist the urge to rip my torso around, then when it's time to actually throw all I have to do is the same thing shown here, but relax my core and let it do what it wants! Been having a lot of trouble with this exact problem recently, gonna have to try this out!

[@dgspindoctor]

The rotation happens very naturally with the coil and brace, just like you said. Good luck!

[@chuckstreet]

I focused today on throwing with my arm quickly instead of my body and I genuinely think I instantly added 50' of distance.The disc was coming out with so much more speed. This video was a major break through for me.

[@dgspindoctor]

Let's go! You made my day. Thanks for letting me know!

[@OkieTradez]

i realllly like that drill from trebuchet where you put your foot backwards on the one leg! i can def feel the difference.. i def was not rotating but more pushing self forward like example.. quality!

[@RobertBarone-s3z]

Buddy, that's a ball golf drill. Seabas22 ported it over and has a video on it a decade old. Just because you're new, doesn't mean the drill is.

[@jeromewalton5553]

He didn’t say it was new

[@Nolast12503]

​@@RobertBarone-s3z did you try to go for the maximum rude? 😂

[@1andonlyMiro]

It's simple, no need to use your whole body to move a light plastic plate. Just use your bicep 💪🏻

[@thomaswinzy]

I think another way to explain it is to keep your center of mass behind your center of pressure (in direction of the throw). The one legged drill is great to incorporate this because its hard to move your center of mass past the pressure point that way. Also 0:51 that's probably the best slow motion demonstration i've ever seen. most people show something completely different than what they are throwing. 😆

[@Flakzor123]

One of the ways I usually suggest people stop themselves from "toppling forward" is to pick the back leg up as a counterweight just like a kangaroos tail. In order for that to work the knee has to be turned in/forward quite a bit in order for the posterior chain to connect properly through hamstring, glute and lower back. How much hipmobility the athlete has will dictate how far back they can leave the knee and still do this. Reaching "down" with the off hand as you bring it in also helps keep that shoulder down to keep the torso on axis. Your own video on weightshift and the sweeper drill is also quite a good tool because many people start their "toppling" by not weightshifting properly.

[@janne932]

Excellent video once again Jaani! I think i will benefit greatly from this.

[@nordy1226]

It’s been a while since I’ve watched one of your videos, but go figure mind blown 🤯 Can’t wait to get out there and practice this one. Thank you sir.

[@dgspindoctor]

Welcome back!

[@markhumphrey8894]

Best video ive ever seen!! Im definitely the guy in the video. Hopefully no more. Thank you Janni and trebuchet golf. 👏👏👏

[@TehStrawMan]

so happy I found your channel, great video and nice props to the other guy

[@dgspindoctor]

Thanks! As the saying goes, I stand on the shoulders of giants.

[@nateworzalla6773]

completely agree, mass will slow down movements, but strength training will create fast muscle twitch which will generate more speed when used properly.

[@dgspindoctor]

This is the truth.

[@SmarteeSteve]

Thank you and keep teaching us! I'll keep trying any and all technique advice until either my I've found and fixed all the factors that are holding me back from true big-distance or my body has ceased to be a part of this world

[@dgspindoctor]

Glad to help!

which Trebuchet video are u showing in ur video? id like to watch his as well...thanks

[@dgspindoctor]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZPFYZShpc-kiLssi=7oDUqSVm5iQcmCnk

[@lancerobinson8738]

Your videos never disappoint...

[@UtahDarkHorse]

Thanks for another great video. You're one of my favorite instructors on KZbin. I like TDG too. Most of what I feel are the best instructors aren't necessarily the best players. I believe that's because Teaching is a completely different talent than Doing. I think Teachers have to be familiar enough with the content to Teach it, but I've found that those specifically with a talent for doing, are rarely very good teachers. Case in point. Paul McBeth is not a very good teacher. I'd imagine that Calvin Heimburg would be a terrible teacher. There are a few that have both talents, but it's not a given as some think. So, don't feel bad if you don't have a closet full of trophies, You rock at what you do and are absolutely necessary. Keep up the great work and thanks for sharing.

[@dgspindoctor]

Thanks! This is the plan b for my DG career, but at least I'm good at something that involves discs.

[@MegaSydman]

This makes alot of sense. Gareth gurthie is a great example of a player with large body but where the rotational axis doesn't move an inch.

[@dgspindoctor]

Yes, the body mass is in the torso, but only the arm moves on a very sturdy base, which is the legs.

[@qedyt]

I have been doing this (moving my body forward) for years, now trying to unlearn the habit. 650 repetitions thus far this week and counting. Still slipping back to my bad habit every now and then. I expect that I need at least 2000 reps to get rid of it. After that, time to add the x-step...

[@dgspindoctor]

You can move it forward, but most importantly, stop it from moving to launch the disc out.

[@thomaswinzy]

The only reason i would call it a whole body movement is to promote the fact that it's a fascial movement and not a muscle one and the fascial plane needs to be correctly set up to generate power in a kinetic chain. in todays day and age with slumping shoulders, bad hips and inactivated glutes people's fascial tension is all screwed up but everyone could skip a rock as a kid. Also everyone's fascial anatomy is different, having a long torso is a big advantage in this sport because you aren't reacting to an opponent so you have time to set up. Look at Albert Tamms set up, its so good.

[@coast2coast00]

No one has any idea what fascial means. You have to be a PT to understand this comment. I don't think I've seen Albert Tamm throw before... I think he's doing exactly what I'm trying to do, so thanks for that.

[@thomaswinzy]

@@coast2coast00 I cant explain everything in a comment, its supposed to be a breadcrumb if you want to go deeper but maybe i'm hijacking the doctors mantra? Albert tamm is an absolute unit as they say and has a high kinetic intelligence. He sets up the tension beforehand and leaves no room for mistakes. No wasted motions. kzbin.info0a3vIg2IzHg

[@JejuneJesuit]

From a technique standpoint I totally agree with you... as a bigger and stronger player I keep realizing that the action in the arm is the most important part of the throw, full stop. But I disagree that disc golfers don't need to be "strong," and would say that 95% of players would benefit from lifting weights or becoming stronger overall. You can't be explosive without having strength, and having developed musculature also keeps you free from injury. To give some counterexamples of amazing throwers, there's Kristian Kuoksa, David Wiggins, and new distance thrower Nick Krush, whose athleticism and training seem to put them head and shoulders above the rest of the field. All of these guys are freakishly strong. Eagle, on the other hand, has famously dealt with injuries over the course of his career. Ganon, Klein, and Heimburg are all pretty young, too; there's no guarantee they won't get injured down the line if they don't train. Love your content, man. And I totally agree with your form tips :)

[@dgspindoctor]

Yes, being strong and fast helps. My take was aimed at using your MASS to throw the disc. And that 99 percent of amateurs think that they need to throw their full body to move the disc. True, getting your physique in check is important, but not to sacrifice mobility, flexibility and speed in the process.

[@jonathantullock6922]

Where can this Postman drill be found you speak of around 1:30 ?

[@jonathantullock6922]

Nevermind. I found it. I was calling it the clothesline drill. 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@dgspindoctor]

I love it!

[@chengiggler]

This is a very common error in stick golf too. One leg drill is used to counteract it and also keep the target in your minds eye so you’re head doesn’t move to the target.

[@cnking27]

my mantra on every single shot is "head down." it's partly a psychological thing to tell myself to stay present, not worry about everything else going on in the round or in life and just focus on that shot, but it's also because my most common issue is ruining my form by turning my head too soon to watch the shot (or moving my eye off the target to watch the disc on putts). also helps to keep me driving forward on forehands instead of "spinning" across my body, away from the target.

[@brianc1651]

I kind of thought part of the reason that I do this is because I am trying to pull the disc. I am currently working on slowing down and basically throwing like a robot. Trying to get my off arm in and having my rotation bring the disc into the power pocket more than actually pulling it there. I will try that drill. I also definitely watch my disc too much, which brings the head up.

[@dgspindoctor]

Why don't you just forget about the forced rotation and off arm tuck?

[@michaelfaber6904]

the ball golf guys say, "Keep your eye on the ball."

[@dgspindoctor]

A Disc Golfer says: keep your eye on the balls.

[@michaelfaber6904]

@@dgspindoctor I don't think I can see my balls when throwing a disc

[@AxisDiscPowers]

​​@@michaelfaber6904Your friend's balls.

[@dgspindoctor]

@@michaelfaber6904 Are you saying you're one of those pants-wearing players?

[@michaelfaber6904]

@@dgspindoctor Only because my home course is in a public park.

[@krUsberry]

Finland looks strangely snow free... Suspicious 🤔

[@dgspindoctor]

Unprecedented heat wave, that's all.

[@krUsberry]

@@dgspindoctor Probably just Anttilla on fire 🔥

[@alanlundberg4534]

We've had almost no snow in Minnesota this winter, and the ground has been bare for weeks.

[@menneskeeter]

Global warming has obviously hit Finland pretty hard

[@sarinhighwind]

@@alanlundberg4534 It was like -15 for a few weeks in Duluth just like a month ago...

[@TwoOneSe7en]

Will Schusterick K!LL$ it at this rotation. It’s unreal.

[@Davbaldwin1]

very helpful

[@dgspindoctor]

Glad you think so!

[@oftankoftan]

training for power is: heavy, or fast. A lot of people think it's done mostly through the big 3. That's true for power lifting. Most advanced power lifters also know this by training "speed reps" with lighter weight and/or elastic bands. For disc golf I think it's important to train for speed. Things like plyometrics and speed reps will make you throw farther. But training for hypertrophy in the off season is important for protecting your joints. A lot of these tall, lanky guys get hurt. Simon, Eagle, Calvin and Gannon all currently have ongoing injuries. And they're glass cannons.

[@dgspindoctor]

Yes, I kinda guessed people would misunderstand the video. I was mostly referring to throwing your whole body because it feels more powerful to move a bigger mass. Having muscles is important. Being big is not, and especially moving a big mass to move a small object doesn't help at all, on the contrary.

[@oftankoftan]

@@dgspindoctorNot sure if you think I misunderstood the video. I didn't.

[@Andyofsuh]

Teach the Mountain how to throw. I wanna see that

[@dgspindoctor]

Scary thought!

[@Andyofsuh]

@@dgspindoctorwould you say keep your head more back like gurthie? I feel like i keep mine pretty neutral but still get over the top ( i try to not let it lead the throw)

[@dgspindoctor]

@@Andyofsuh I just try not to turn it in early. Not forcing it to stay back, which again can hurt or tense the muscles.

[@trackballmaster]

feel like sling shot disc is saying the opposite

[@dgspindoctor]

He totally is saying the opposite of every disc golf coach ever.

[@Peeingstickymilk]

Yes he’s seems to be using that as a gimmick to get views and clients because he’s not a very good coach/player.

[@TwoOneSe7en]

When I lose my rotational balance and lean forward, thinking putting more into it, I tend to misfire low anyway. Not good.

[@dgspindoctor]

That tends to happen, yes, because the arm goes low and the torso stands up. And you plunge over the brace.

[@FreedomUSA357]

Good video. I noticed I’m dropping my elbow thanks to this video

[@Eaglemadhatter]

"Hips don't lie"

[@isset3037]

Jaani, näytä pala!

[@dgspindoctor]

Jaa paita pois?

[@thomaswinzy]

People don't realize that its literally impossible to throw like the pros without proper hip mobility. the whole torso needs to rotate on the femurs in the same axis as he explained, and that requires hip mobility. shorter step will help a bit. The players mentioned aren't strong but they are REALLY flexible.

[@dgspindoctor]

Yeah, the back needs to rotate without any friction to get the most out of your rotational force.

[@jonezy911L]

Tried this once and felt a difference already

[@OkieTradez]

i tried the back loaded grip and it didnt do anything for me.. was worth a try but again didnt do anything for me.. oh well! when i get the nose down i get an extra 70ft on any shot.. ive got to find a way to get the nose down easily!

[@brianc1651]

Same, although I think it removed a lot of my hyzer problems, but then it just caused me to turn things over, even an Envy.

[@NickCarroll]

I had the same experience, but I have other issues which very likely obfuscate any effect back or front loaded grips have. You might have the same issue. Or perhaps a similar set of issues. 🙂

[@KyleHenry-h5p]

The angle you're at to achieve this looks like a pure hyzer shot. How can you put your body on that much angle and not throw a hyzer?

[@coast2coast00]

This is a hyzer style throw. You will have to throw more understable discs for a flat flight. However throwing from a hyzer tilt is the strongest throw style, so you will get further flights. This is also a learning exercise, so you will have to overcompensate and start out by throwing only strong hyzers, then after you understand the body movements, you can stand up straighter.

[@dgspindoctor]

The release might be a hyzer but the flight is not. That is actually one major myth to bust, thanks for noting!

[@dgspindoctor]

Exactly.

[@KyleHenry-h5p]

Ok, that makes sense. But how is it that the pros like Eagle, Simone, or AB able to flip over the most overstable discs? Is that just speed?

[@dgspindoctor]

@user-fx4tj9np9o What else could it be? The disc selection and follow through? The arm path? So many ways to manipulate the angle, not just the torso.

[@milesrooklyn9952]

I had this same problem with the elbow for a looong time. Finally fixed it when I realized the root cause was a subtle rounding brough on by a plant step that was too wide to the left (RHBH). The shoulder moves up to make room for the disc and the arm collapses close to the body. The fix was to make a straighter stride, and exaggerate a wider “reach out.” This non example is rounding big time

[@dgspindoctor]

Great discovery, and also something I've tried to teach online.

[@dougieefreshiee]

Perspective shift

[@OkieTradez]

i want to creqate a drill based off this video called the chicken drill .. ever saw someone hold a chicken and move their body left and right? the head of the chicken will NEVER move! thats what we need to do.. rotate the body without rotating the head

[@ErnoAlias]

Vastikään törmäsin tähän trebuchetin kanavaan. Kaveri vaikuttaa hommansa osaavalta. Ps. Kiitti taas videosta, näitä on kaipaillut, fribaskenen ylivoimaisesti parasta antia.

[@twofifty6]

Boom! Roasted by the Doctor himself. 😂 I wish one of you would have talked about how the camera adds gray hairs, but either way I appreciate the insight! 🙂

[@dgspindoctor]

Ha, it's a total roastshow!

[@runeheidt]

Interesting discusison. I fear that people hear "dont get strong" and then interpret that as "strength doesnt play a role in disc golf". I think that EVERY passionate disc golfer should be strength training as hard as they possible can to facilitate a lot of fun practice on the field and on the course. Everyone will throw farther if they get their deadlift and squat up. You heard it here first :D

[@dgspindoctor]

Yes, that is true. But I guess you didn't read the description. Moving your whole body thinking that you're getting more out of your body is counterproductive. I also do strength and conditioning every single day.

[@boomshocka1000]

Look at a major league home run in super slow motion. They don't move their body at all. It's wrists and hips.

[@dgspindoctor]

Pretty much yes. All I try to tell is, not to try and muscle the disc or throw your whole body thinking it'll be faster.

[@boomshocka1000]

@@dgspindoctor yeah totally. We are a volcrum.

[@lijiaxudaiwan]

Looks like he is in Taipei, Taiwan.

[@dgspindoctor]

This is true.

[@lijiaxudaiwan]

Nice, I hope to see you if you're gonna gonna come to our local park to play while you're here.

[@dgspindoctor]

I'm pretty much done playing disc golf at this point, but who knows.

[@impasta928]

the one leg drill feels weak and will always feel weak. there is no way to speed up rotation without driving into your plant with your back leg. I don't understand how its such a glorified drill to promote a "healthy rotation." Also saying you don't need to be strong is a catch 22. You need to train your speed muscles too. Plyometrics, Explosive athletic training all plays a role in being able to throw far. Professionals have learned a way to harness the energy you can gain with fast twitch muscles. Just seems bait-ey to say you don't need to be "strong" to be able to throw far.

[@dgspindoctor]

Seems like you didn't watch the video or simply don't understand it. Good day!

[@sarinhighwind]

You have absolutely no understanding of what he's talking about do you?

[@benharrison5816]

Watched a video of David Wiggins Jr. throwing 484 ft. when he was 11 years old. Proper technique is far more important than being "strong".

[@dgspindoctor]

Proper technique + fast muscles = speed. Moving a heavy ass mass to drag the disc = slow. That's what I tried to say, but some still think I'm against weightlifting and physical training. Which I'm not.

[@gnrdakota]

Every throwing sports athlete needs to learn how to use steel mace and club bells to get rotational strength and intelligence. If you dont know, at least check it out its worth your time. 🎉

[@davelopez9161]

????? Are you not the guy that was demonstrating how to snap a towel by rotating the hips? Now you are saying don't rotate. ?????????

[@dgspindoctor]

Oh boy. Yes, you rotate but not by "rotating", but by weight shifting.

[@danbroome2543]

I don’t understand… so you’re actively throwing (pulling) the disc with your arm? This seems contrary to every other teacher I’ve seen…

[@dgspindoctor]

I think we watched a different video then.

[@danbroome2543]

I’m not denying that this is correct form, just so different from what I’ve been told in the past. From your drill for example, it seems like there is no way to release the disc without your arm doing a majority of the work. I have a really bad issue of pulling with the shoulders/ upper body but always thought this was more of a timing issue as most you tube teachers say “don’t throw, with the arm. Use your body” .I.E hips and torso to throw the disc. This is the way I’ve thrown for the past couple years and can throw fairly far (450’) but I also feel like I’m leaking a lot of power and speed because my body is leading the disc so much instead of the disc snapping in front of my body like I feel it should. I also get shoulder pain because of this. I’ve just never been able to figure out how to do it differently. I will work on this though and hopefully this is what I’ve been missing! Thanks for the videos

[@dgspindoctor]

Use your arm, and nothing but the arm. But also get your weight FULLY supported by the front leg/hip. That's it. LET the body rotate.

[@footfaultdiscgolf]

foot fault

[@TheSunking1]

Thank for getting my upper torso in the correct position! I can’t wait to go out and try my new knowledge tidbit! 🥏💫😎

[@dgspindoctor]

You are so welcome!

[@jrgenmadslien5917]

Yeah, but throwing 315 (ab)using all your muscles looks waaay cooler than a smooth 450... 🫠🦾😂

[@dgspindoctor]

Second that!