Did Pagan Myths Influence the Virgin Birth? Michael Horton Responds to Bart Ehrman

[@dundeemink3847]

how many gospel writers inspected Mary for evidence of virginity?

[@derekallen4568]

The stories in the bible claim Jesus rose from the dead. There is zero evidence that those stories are true. Paul claims 500 people saw him. He doesn't mention a single name.

[@christophertaylor9100]

Bart Ehrman knows better but he has a grift talking like this for interviews and book sales.

[@ji8044]

Michael Horton has written far, far more books than Ehrman has according to his bio

[@christophertaylor9100]

@@ji8044 Yep, but Michael writes books about all manner of topics with depth and research. Erhman just repeats the same discredited crap he's been teaching Religion 101 students for the last 30 years.

[@ji8044]

@@christophertaylor9100 LMFAO, Ehrman reads and speaks Greek and Hebrew is an expert on ancient history of the Bible. Horton went to storefront schools doesn't read or speak either language and is an expert on nothing.

[@christophertaylor9100]

@@ji8044 LOL I mean putting aside the pathetic appeal to authority, Horton graduated from Biola, has a PhD from Oxford University and completed a research fellowship at Yale Divinity School. So, you can call that "storefront schools" but LOL. Oh, and he is fluent in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic.

[@ji8044]

@@christophertaylor9100 Biola is a tiny YEC Bible college. No he doesn't have a PhD from Oxford. "Education BA Biola University; MA Westminster Seminary California; PhD University of Coventry and Wycliffe Hall, Oxford." Coventry is the equivalent of a local community college the US. Not sure where the Wycliff Hall reference comes from but he definitely didn't get a PhD from Oxford.

[@trabob4438]

Isaiah 7:14 is not talking about jesus it was a prophecy that was fulfilled 700 before jesus was born and had nothing to do with jesus.

[@rockytopbritt]

Isaiah 7 is apart of one giant section (chapters 7-12) that concludes with the root of the stump of Jessie (which is clearly the messiah) in Chapter 11 and Chapter 12 where God is dwelling with his people (12:6). While verse 7:11 may not be as straightforward of a prophecy about the birth of the messiah as one might initially assume, its just an internet myth that it has nothing to do with the messiah. On the contrary it is VERY messianic when the wider context is taken into consideration.

[@trabob4438]

@@rockytopbritt It's talking about king Ahah who is worried about the two kings who want to destroy Jerusalem, and God gave him a sign that the young woman who is soon to have a baby. Before that child can choose between good and evil those two kings that you fear would be destroyed. That is it unless you take it out of context this is not an internet myth.

[@rockytopbritt]

@@trabob4438 The problem is reading verse 11 in the context of chapter 7 is not enough. The threat against King Ahaz is an attempt to replace him with a puppet King (7:6). This amounts to a threat to the Davidic Dynasty and therefore gives this passage Messianic implications In the passage Isaiah brings his son to court and later has another(7:3). Both are called signs from God (8:18). The name of the first son is Shear-jashub which means "a Remnant shall Return". In chapter 11, In the time of the branch of the Stump of Jessie , God calls forth a remnant from the nations (11:11). So in the original context of Isaiah, The Sign of Immanuel points to the Branch of the Stump of Jessie, who is the Messiah.

[@trabob4438]

@@rockytopbritt Don't care about chapter 11, in chapter 7 all it is telling king ahaz is the 2 kings trying to destroy Juda will be destroyed before the child is very old.

[@rockytopbritt]

@@trabob4438 Chapters 7-12 are one continuous section. If you don't care about Chapter 11, you don't care about Chapter 7 or the correct context for verse 11. Like I said. Internet myth.

[@dlwestphalen]

Sounds like poor apologetics. For example, the argument that the whole New Testament teaches the virgin birth of Jesus is a huge stretch. Christians, please do better …

[@jacobthesettler7616]

God can do anything. He just can't write a proper book.

[@mxt1thomas]

15:58 . Nonsense, at this point this would be apologist is factually incorrect. Here are a few examples; * Zeus and Danae - Zeus visited her as a shower of golden rain that fell through the roof of her bronze chamber. This metaphorical description suggests a more ethereal form of divine interaction rather than a physical encounter. * Flora and Zephyrus - The wind god Zephyrus was said to have caused Flora to conceive by breathing spring's first breeze upon her. This poetic description emphasizes the incorporeal nature of the divine interaction. * Zeus and Io - Some versions of the myth describe Zeus enveloping Io in a cloud or mist, with the divine presence itself leading to conception, rather than explicitly physical contact.

[@Christus-totalis]

5:36 Great point Mike! actually we do have that terrible narrative trope in the bible. Nephilim, violence, chaos and destruction of the world in flood! Christ incarnation transcends any human conception and is tied directly into creation in a wonderful and mysterious way. I recently read these verses in conjunction and nearly fell out of my chair. “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it” Job 38 4-9 And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger.” And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!” Luke 2 12-14 אין מוקדם ומאוחר בתורה Mary Creation to all and to all a good night.

[@stevenhorton8604]

Unlike many Christians, who would attack people they disagree with, I'm grateful to Mr. Horton for keeping calm and responding to Dr. Ehrman with respect while sticking to dogmatic beliefs. If there were more Christians like him, I think the decline of Christianity wouldn't be happening today. Christians should take seriously the commandment not to blaspheme the holy spirit.

[@fluffyhead04]

Having read Ehrman it is amazing that he managed to get a following. He makes tons of empty and baseless claims. Horton picks up on the emptiness easily.

[@nonprogrediestregredi1711]

Really? Would you like me to list the baseless assertions of Mr Horton? There are plenty in just this video.

[@ytjake789]

I trust the logic of Mr. Ehrman far more than that of Mr. Horton.

[@TheJonnyzeus]

Horton blithely refers to “god” as a miracle worker as though there was proof! Just bloody nonsense!

[@dansaber4427]

It's like he won't accept any theories that suggests the Bible isn't true. Does he have invested interest in it or something?

[@tnowandthen-t8t]

"He" who? There are two different scholars in this video. To which of these does your, "he" refer?

[@dansaber4427]

I'm talking about the guy in the video who thinks the Bible is true

[@bevanbasson4289]

Divine conseption and the dying rising God are very common in ancient times. Egypt, Greece, Rome, Babylon etc. Christianity relied heavily on Zoroastrianism (Heaven and hell, ministry starting at 30, savior born of a virgin etc) from 1500 bc, and still followers today.

[@Folkstone1957]

Michael, are sure you are speaking for all your fellow believers ?

[@toadster_strudel]

Mr. Ehrman is more of a novelty than a serious thinker. The guy never comes up with anything unique or original.

[@nonprogrediestregredi1711]

Yes, what a "novelty" he is. Because publishers always seek out "novelties" to write ivy league college textbooks on the new testament and "novelties" get labeled as "distinguished professors. He was mentored by Bruce Metzger; you know, just as "novelties" do.

[@toadster_strudel]

@nonprogrediestregredi1711 I stand by what I said. The guy has made a career out of intentionally misleading others. That means more to me than whatever ivory tower he's taken refuge in.

[@ji8044]

Right, a novelty who speaks and reads Greek and Hebrew. LOL

[@toadster_strudel]

@@ji8044 Yes, because people still speak in ancient Greek and Hebrew these days.

[@ji8044]

@@toadster_strudel You don't.

[@msolsen]

It really is worth reading the C.S. Lewis essay in question , "Myth Became Fact" and also his book "Miracles." Lewis's argument is characterized by Erhman as "getting around" the supposition that similarities in different mythologies disproves them all. Lewis's thesis does not "get around" this very weak argument. It accounts for it convincingly, even reveals what is supposed evidence for the prosecution as exculpatory evidence for the defense.

[@chanceotter8121]

I have always thought of Ehrman as a carny barker. He knows what he says are exaggerations, half-truths, or cleverly worded misdirections. He makes his living on people who do not know the scriptures and want reasons not to take the Bible seriously. I worked as a fact checker for a company that worked with him and had to read his lectures prior to filming. His sins are omission of facts, and playing sleight of hand with conjecture and opinion. He is a carny barker: One year the two-headed sheep fetus in the jar is a captured alien, the next it is the spawn of a chupacabra-he knows better but has his schtick to get suckers in the tent.

[@ji8044]

Not a word of what you wrote is actually true of course. LOL "He makes his living on people who do not know the scriptures" That is literally every Christian preacher in the world.

[@chanceotter8121]

I have always thought of Ehrman as a carny barker. He knows what he says are exaggerations, half-truths, or cleverly worded misdirections. He makes his living on people who do not know the scriptures and want reasons not to take the Bible seriously. I worked as a fact checker for a company that worked with him and had to read his lectures prior to filming. His sins are more of omission of facts, and playing sleight of hand with conjecture and opinion. He is a carny barker: One year the two-headed sheep fetus in the jar is a captured alien, the next it is the spawn of a chupacabra-he knows better but feigns ignorance for his schtick.

[@ERIK..70-A.D.]

--------- The account of Joseph wanting to leave Mary bears much weight into the fact of the Miracle Messiah Child, among other things.

[@jonathanadrao881]

According to the claimed " born without sin" According to another claimed "the punishment of sin is death" another claimed again "they are holy" but all of them are "dead". According to their claimed again "they are the faithful followers of their "claimed" God " but the claimed most revered holy are dead not resurrected. We can fool and redefine words but we can't fool death. We're facing death at any moment whether by assuming we are holy or sinners. Death is the fate of everything that does not conform to nature.

[@billobrien4680]

Hmmm... supporting the veracity of the scripture... by citing the scripture... ipse dixit.

[@ChopperChad]

So the late Bronze Age storm god Yahweh is the creator of the universe and is also Jesus. I sincerely don't understand how this is believable to so many.

[@ji8044]

If Jesus were not a human, born in the usual way of Mary and Joseph, then the devil could not have tempted him with the entire world. As God he would already own the whole world. Only a human could be tempted by such an offer. Furthermore Jesus could not have come from the House of David if he were not of Joseph's bloodline. End of story.

[@michaelnewsham1412]

I got ten seconds in and realized this guy was just making stuff up.

[@edsaadi]

With all due respect to Bart Ehrman, none is due.

[@PatricksLesson]

Bart Ehrman trying to destroy Christmas 🎄 🔥 but the light cannot be extinguished!

[@nonprogrediestregredi1711]

Oh, for Pete's sake, he's not trying to "destroy Christmas." He's stated for years that he loves Xmas. Don't let your likely persecution complex get the best of you.

[@PatricksLesson]

@ without the virgin birth, there’s no Christmas. Ehrman may like Christmas due to familial relationships but long term his will eradicate Christmas.

[@nonprogrediestregredi1711]

@PatricksLesson The belief in the virgin birth is not epistemically justified, regardless of the perceived impact on Xmas. The holiday is as much of a cultural occurrence as it is anything else in modernity. Myself and my immediate family are atheists and still gather for the holiday with extended family. If the long-term result is the eradication of the holiday, then that is simply the direction society will move. I don't believe that it would be anytime soon, however; capitalism will want it to stay relevant.

[@PatricksLesson]

I would encourage you to read NT Wright on epistemology. He gives a critical realism take over positivism. It seems you might be open to faith. As for capitalism keeping Christmas alive, it’s more likely something bigger is at work.

[@Scorned405]

Yea he doesn’t know what he is talking about. He has a PhD

[@lorainabogado]

Does it follow that a being that can create the universe can become a baby inside the womb of a woman? Create universe = become embryo?