Did Star Wars: The Clone Wars Ruin the Clones?

[@HazopGaze]

I'm on both ends, '03 and '08, however one thing you brought up that I don't agree with is the concept of the '03 clones having free will in following Order 66. Referring specifically to 8:55 - 9:40. If they're following "Any order without question". That's not free will, as there is no choice for any being who will do exactly as they are told, 100% of the time, without a second thought. To comment on your thoughts of the betrayal hitting harder for it, I very much disagree. It's sudden and no doubt shocking, but on a level of emotional impact, to have a friend turn on you will hurt more than an ally you merely stood with out of circumstance. One thing I haven't seen mentioned about the chips is how symbolic they are in context to everything around them. In that moment when Order 66 is given, is when the clones have their free will taken from them, ensuring that the galaxy will be ruled by a totalitarian regime for the next few decades. Such things are all about absolute control and suppression of individuality, something the clones had immediately before Order 66, and didn't have after. By humanizing the Clones throughout the series and then having the soon-to-be Emperor strip them of all of that is a stroke of genius, in my opinion. That kind of thing is exactly what dictators want to achieve, in some way, shape or form, to ensure their reign will be absolute. I couldn't tell you for certain if the TCW writers did the chips to get out of a corner, but if they did, they did so superbly. Although, it doesn't surprise me much how what I just described went over pretty much everyone else's heads. There's a lot of deeper meaning in Star Wars that often gets overlooked by people squabbling over which version of lore is better. Not talking about you, mind. Just speaking on a general level.

[@akepatherainwing145]

Yeah. For the clone commandos in Legends, this is true since they were given more agency, or at least REAL agency, with many commandos disobeying Order 66. Not sure what Space Wizrd is talking about in that section. Although I do think it's cool that the Legends clones knew what they were made for in the end and weren't exactly on the Jedi's side, I very much prefer the new Canon's Order 66. It made the clones victims of the order as well by making them comply and kill their friends without hesitation. The command structure/hierarchy explanation for Legends Order 66 felt like it had little to no substance. Lastly, the inhibitor chips doesn't remove the idea of how the clones in the end were no different than the droids of the CIS.

[@spacewizrd]

Hey sorry for the late reply I’m just seeing this now but I really like your comment. I definitely understand your point on the free will of the clones and I actually agree. Looking back now, I didn’t really explain my thoughts as well as I could have. But I like your perspective on the symbolic nature of the chips which is something I definitely overlooked. I’m going to pin your comment. :)

[@HazopGaze]

@@spacewizrd Thanks! I'm just glad you liked what I had to say there. No worries on the late reply, I appreciate it all the same. :)

[@mstash5]

The way in which they fundamentally changed the _nature_ of the Clones ruined it. I am an Army veteran. Giving them all personalities and ridiculous personalization ruined my suspension of disbelief in an elite army of Mandalorian killing machines and made them seem too relatable; like the dudes in my barracks or something. In making the lore more friendly and consumable for children, they ruined good storytelling. The Expanded Universe aka "Legends" was canon when I was a kid in the early 2000s, and to me it always will be. The '03 portrayal is superior in every metric, especially aesthetic but including story.

[@tristankawatsuma8962]

@@spacewizrd Well, I’m of the opposite opinion of preferring Canon Clone Troopers, but I can understand the expectations of Legends fans. Heck, in most science fiction stories involving clone armies, they usually are like in Legends, an organic droid army. To me, I view Canon as how imperfect even Kaminoan cloning is despite being the best in the galaxy. They do still ensure every Clone starts out totally loyal and unquestioning, but experience in the field leads to changes. Yet by the end of the war while we can say most Clones wouldn’t execute Order 66 without question, we still see they haven’t changed 100%. Nearly every Clone transitions into the Empire easily. Even the Bad Batch despite not carrying out Order 66 follow Imperial orders until it’s obvious the new direction of the Empire. I optimistically think most Clones had objections to the new directives of the Empire given their experiences under the Jedi, but keep their mouths shut because fighting for someone is their purpose. No Jedi Order, the Separatists were their enemies, the Rebellion doesn’t exist yet, and that just leaves the Empire which was the Republic, especially after the destruction of Kamino. We see that no Clone is happy being dismissed by the Empire and that the ones most loyal to the Empire find ways to stick around as Stormtroopers or drill instructors. Still, I sometimes wonder what would happen if a Canon Clone met a Legends Clone. They would definitely agree on their dislike of droids and the Separatists, as well as taking pride in being soldiers. Not to mention a shared dislike of Stormtroopers replacing them. Eventually though they may come to blows. The Legends Clone would find it weird that the Canon Clone still has some good memories of the Jedi and might even miss the Republic. The Canon Clone would feel jealously that the Legends Clone was never fired by the Galactic Empire, but might feel disturbed if his Legends counterpart feels no sympathy towards the fate of the Canon Kaminoans. But even at the start of such a meeting, the two Clones would notice instant differences such as hairstyles and armor color/modifications. Don’t forget the name the Canon Clone would have. The Legends Clone would have the same opinion as Canon Imperials in thinking Canon Clone was infected by the Jedi while the Canon Clone might miss the Jedi even more when he realizes his Legends counterpart is who he once was before he served under the Jedi.

[@danielleighton4161]

It's also important to note that the 2003 version of the clones get a little over an hour of screen time while the 2008 version of the clones get WAY more screen time over 7 seasons. If they were depicted the same way as the 2003 version over 7 seasons I don't think people would care about them as much and they would likely not focus on them as much.

[@defalttheloner]

it would be good that way in my opinion, would force them into being more focused in things like politics and charecters development that truly matter, i mean in the grand scheme of things only the jedi, sith, politicians, generals and militias had any importance .

[@sealco]

@@defalttheloner the clones made up the enitre grand army apart from the jedi, the war would have ended long ago without the them, and the war is also named after them

[@defalttheloner]

@@sealco soldiers fight the war but its destiny rely on politics and economy

[@sealco]

@@defalttheloner fair enough

[@cloudmaster182]

The old lore, like pre-2008 mentioned some of the Jedi getting an unnatural feeling in the Force being around the clones, and that some of them were uncomfortable w the clones although over the course of the war many generals grew to trust them. That's why General Rahm Kora from legends commanded only non-clone troops. He didn't trust them from the start

[@Mia-gamin-616]

If anything people forget that clones were always meant to be tools used to execute order 66 in the end since episode 2 states that they were created without the council’s consent, they were nothing but tools , just like how maul, Dooku and grievous were tools for palpatine to use to get what he wanted.

[@fizzy4877]

back in the good old days of the clone wars multimedia project (cwmmp), before the contradiction mess of the 2008 clone wars, regular run of the mill clone troopers had a little bit of personality, but not has much personality as the ones portrayed in the 2008 clone wars. For example, they might sometimes sing mandalorian war chants together before a battle. But they were still loyal to the chancellor and were obedient. Also, before 2008 clone wars, in the cwmmp, there were clones that had that same level of personality that every regular clone did in the 2008 clone wars. Except that these cwmmp clones who had that level of personality were not regular run of the mill clones. they were clone commandos, arc troopers, and clone officers who underwent the ARC training program. they had more independence and intelligence than the regular clone, so they could decide if they wanted to obey order 66. Some of them obeyed it and carried it out, while the minority of them disobeyed it and deserted. So if filoni only applied the 2008 clone wars' personality stuff to the ARC troopers, commandos, and some clone officers, instead of every regular clone, then we wouldn't have this problem and the introduction of inhibitor chips.

[@tiranito2834]

Exactly. I feel like Republic Commando did a pretty good job at explaining things during the intro... the clones that are superior to their brothers in some way for whatever reason (commandos, arcs, experience, genetic annomalies, you name it....) tend to develop a personality that differs from the grand majority of clones, precisely because of those differences that makes them develop in a different way... while most of the clones from the grand army of the republic are simply run of the mill infantry troops, aka cannon fodder, so there's not much going for them to develop a different personality to the rest of the clones. It actually is pretty logical if you think about it, and aligns with what you said. 2008 clone wars wasn't all that bad, but it sure did a lot of damage by trying to make every single clone special and unique. When every single clone is special and unique, then no clone is special and unique... that's what makes the "special and unique" clones stand out: the fact that the rest of the clones around them are generic and almost identical to eachother. And that's a big problem, because what was once a novelty in the 2003 cone wars show, the RC game and novels, etc... has now become mundane.

[@dennis.edich1998]

Well. It's true that we see a lot of clones have their own personalities in 2008 TCW, but these are just a handful of millions of others throughout the whole Grand Army of the Republic. The whole point is that the clones we see that are more individual are under much more letient Jedi generals. Comparing Anakin's legion/clones to other ones and the others are much more like the 2003 clones. Just look at clone trooper Dogma in Season 4 during the Umbara Arc, who was fiercely loyal to Pong Krell and ready to betray his brothers before Rex influenced him to make his own decisions.

[@josesosa3337]

​@@dennis.edich1998in the original timeline in the novel labrynth of evil, it's stated that nick names, especially after the first generation of clone troopers, was the Jedi's idea. While i Do believe some Jedi generals would be more relaxed than others. In the books before Filoni and Disney, many Jedi see the clones as individuals already but its stressed that clones Do respect the Jedi, they are still loyal to the republic, the senate, and the Chancellor.

[@HelljumperE7ZJ]

Remember, up until Season 4, the 2008 Clone Wars watch watched over by George, and they attempted to connect to the 2003 one. It was George who wanted the Clones to have personalites and wanted these stories to give hope to kids. I also feel people think the way that the 501st was depicted in the 2008 Clone Wars was the way every canon clone ever in existence would be depicted as well, but not even all of the 501st were full of personality, really just vets and the ARCs

[@altEFG]

First of all, the level of Lucas's involvement with The Clone Wars is questionable. Lucas always viewed his movies as the only "canon" there is and EU as "you kids go have fun, I don't care". The way I see it, they just threw some ideas on the wall during meetings and Lucas just weren't against them. Also, Lucas is known for altering his work after the fact for the worse. But 2003 Clone Wars were made when Lucas was heavily involved with making those movies in the first place, so they probably reflect his original intentions.

[@miniaturejayhawk8702]

The clones in the clone wars felt like an army of conscripted twins and not like mercenary bountyhunters. I prefer the original because its consistent with the clones from the movies and even with the stormtroopers. Lets be honest: why would palpatine just replace them for no reason? I could perfectly imagine stormtroopers as just being next gen clones if it werent for the reboot. Dave Filoni took some heavy creative liberties and while I like what he did with it I hate the idea that he just turned the established lore on its head. I am certain there could have been other much better ways to tell these stories to be honest. Star wars is a large cinematic universe. Those could have easily been old republic stories.

[@mstash5]

Filoni is an overrated hack and he ruined the established lore.

[@Groobis]

@@mstash5 I wouldn't call Filoni a hack, but I will say, him treating the expanded universe as a suggestion instead of actual things that happened in the story is pretty damn frustrating. and while sometimes I think the change is for the better, it was also very frequently for the worse.

[@mstash5]

@@Groobis name one thing Filoni bastardized from the Expanded Universe that was for the better.

[@ARC--5973]

​@@mstash5 The EU was never considered canon by Lucas. The 08 Clone Wars always took priority in continuity sake bc it was directly canon. The creators of TCW never bastardized anything from the EU bc they exist separately

[@ArmouredProductions]

There actually *was* a compromise in Legends because there was still clones who disobeyed Order 66, but it was *because* they were different from the regular clones. ARC Troopers and Clone Commandos were typically the ones who disobeyed the Order, and it made sense that they did not have as rigid programming since they needed more creative and independent thinking. And even then, the majority of ARCs and Commandos still executed Order 66. The rank and file clones should be stoic soldiers who obey without question, while the special types that required more independent thought and had names should be the ones more inclined to disobey, but even then it was rare.

[@CloneCommanderCrater1102]

I know I'm a bit late to this, but you do know that a lot of the rank and file troopers in Legends had names and personalities well before the '08 Clone Wars series existed, right?

[@TheRevan1337]

​@@CloneCommanderCrater1102 This can be attributed to them serving with their Jedi Commanders and differentiating themselves from other clone units

[@CloneCommanderCrater1102]

@TheRevan1337 Yes, that was usually the case, but there were still occasionally regular clones who, despite not serving with a Jedi, developed some level of individuality. So many people seem to think that every regular non-ARC and non-commando clone trooper in Legends was completely droid-like with no individuality, but that is simply not true as there are numerous cases of regular infantry troopers becoming their own people in some way or another in Legends.

[@Kaleidoscope2412]

My reference for extended clone lore in the legends continuity was always the Karen Traviss Republic Commando series. The clones were designed as products, however the kaminoans never really understood the psychology of their clones quite as deeply as they believed. All the clones were genetically modified to be more obedient and loyal than their template Jango Fett, but ultimately the environment the clones found themselves in shaped them once they were out of the constant surveillance of the kaminoans. They couldn't control all the variables when the clones were finally sent into the field. Pretty sure in the Republic Commando novels, it mentions how clones would hide their individualism and "undesirable" personality traits from the clone masters to avoid getting culled. So I don't think the two depictions are mutually exclusive, though I do agree that TCW certainly made a push to have more stand out personalities for the audience to cling on to.

[@luckykennedy7364]

My biggest gripe is the Brain chip. It feels like a massive copout to make sure no clone wasn’t 100% responsible for their actions. I can’t remember the book but there was one passage where a clone has a inner monologue about order 66. He accepted it because the Jedi were traitors because of the attempt on the chancellor’s life. Now that’s interesting.

[@matthewkalasky2891]

Well, they where, from the very beginning of their official introduction, mentioned to have been designed to be "totally obidient. Taking any order without question." The chips are really just a further explanation of that.

[@luckykennedy7364]

@@matthewkalasky2891 No, they were something that had to be added because they completely trampled over the original idea and realized they had written themselves into a corner.

[@NCozy]

It would be one thing if this conflict was more explored in the films but it isn't. All of the clones in episode 3 turn without a second thought. Like almost to the point that it's jarring that Cody would go from being buddy buddy with obi wan to shooting him down. And it's not like they were ordered to explicitly kill the jedi. Order 66 is a code, and if the clones have free will it means that it must've been taught to them and if that's the case it means that it isn't decision the clones have to make with their own free will but something that they were ready to do at any moment. Palpatine even tells Cody "the time has come". If they're just going to blindly follow orders without thought from the beginning, then there isn't really much of a conflict when the clones turn. It doesnt matter if they have responsibility if they don't have to grapple with the consequences.

[@sealco]

The issue is, that stuff in the book never appeared on screen, so while thats interesting it was never expanded on

[@luckykennedy7364]

@@sealco Actually a lot of stuff from the books was mentioned in both attack of the clones and revenge of the Sith. And if you know your shit it makes the film all the more richer. Like Anakin having not seen padme for close to a year which is a reference to the outer rim sieges. Or the boder Obi-Wan and Anakin are returning from was The entire part of the approaching storm where Barris was his age and both got along well.

[@connor9024]

I’m glad Star Wars fans are talking about 03 clone wars. It’s one of the retcons I miss a lot. It didn’t feel like this at the time, but the 03 clone wars is way more mature. I’m not talking about on screen violence, but it didn’t sugar coat the themes of war. No jokes, no gags, just story. Believe it or not, it was not that popular when it came out. It was broken up into 5 minute segments that aired on fridays right before toonami ( I think) it was confusing because CN promoted it like it was going to be a whole show, not shorts. When they did the 08 clone wars, they knew they had to tone it down a little. The show definitely didn’t take short cuts, but it’s definitely still a children’s show at heart that needs to be written for longevity. Clones needed personalities and you’re right, you can’t have a show that develops these characters when you already know at some point they will turn on the Jedi without some mulligan (the chips) By no means is 08 a bad show, I’m not saying that, but 03 clone wars was a passion project of a person who clearly was a nerd in the 70s/80s because it’s like Ralph Bakshi playing Traveler. (Bonus points for knowing both of those) We really just don’t see science fiction like it anymore.

[@deepsquatproductions2227]

I honestly think these portrayals have the potential to work together. Here’s my head cannon. The kaminoans created the clones to be what they were in 2003. Cold, calculating, droid like. Absolute loyalty to the republic. But they have a glimmer of humanity underneath that some Jedi recognize. Like yoda said in the first ep of clone wars 08, they’re unique beings in the force. They have souls to put it more bluntly. Over time with their Jedi generals their personality and humanity develop and they grow into what we see in 2008. Or at least some do. As we see throughout some clones def have more personality than others. And chip or no chip, different beings respond to childhood conditioning differently in adulthood. I think it’d actually be really compelling to see what it takes to change some clones to be more human and some to remind more cold and unquestioning. I think what Jedi they fought with would have a huge impact. If you read some of the old eu novels there’s def a difference between a clone under anakin or ahsoka vs someone like ki-adi mundi lol. Addressing the chips, while I agree with your take about the 03 clones having agency and doing order 66 anyway being a strong story, I also really like the idea of true friends of the Jedi having their agency stripped and forced to commit an atrocity they don’t want to. I think the solution is to make the chips function as more of a fail safe. Have the original 03 story intact where order 66 is just one of many contingency orders that the clones know about from the beginning, just in case the Jedi were to ever turn on the republic. For clones who served with the asshole Jedi like krell or mundi, they never developed their humanity and were ready and willing to kill the Jedi, chip or no chip. And for clones like Rex with strong personalities and attachment to their Jedi friends, they get their agency stripped from them anyway and have to live with the consequences. We can see plenty of regs turn without a fuss but Rex struggles hard, even with an intact chip. Plus I find it more within palpatines character to have a backup plan. Clone science is finicky, and having a fail safe in place in case the clones grew attached def makes sense to me. Anyways just my 2 cents lol

[@TheOzelot11]

I feel like they should've made it so that the Clones on Camino are more like the 2003 Clones, with them becoming increasingly individual and more warmed up to the Jedi, other people and themselves during the war. That would've been a good explanation for their friendships with the Jedi. This is even what the Bad Batch is doing now: Showing, that even the effects of rigid programming with the Inhibitor chip wear off with time and some Clones beginning to question the orders of the Empire. I personally like the Clones with a little more personality, as I grew up with The Clone Wars and really like the stories they told.

[@kennetheisenbraun5217]

Honestly, the clone wars changed a lot, not just the depiction of the clones. Completely disregarding previously existing comics that showed the fates of characters like barriss, almost all of Anakins character, the mandalorians, and a lot more as well as having two very distinct feels. Which is why I say this, 03 clones were the legends/eu clones. While the 08 clones and show as a whole are part of Disney canon, even though it started before they owned it.

[@ARC--5973]

The comics and outside media was never canon to begin with. Lucas himself stated this. 08 Clone Wars WAS canon, as it had his direct involvement. Like what you like, but don't make absurd claims

[@dingo1547]

@@ARC--5973these are Star Wars fans, nothing they say has any basis in “reality” or “logic”. I don’t get what the big deal is honestly, a lot of the changes Filoni made to established lore were for the better, and made more interesting stories. The changes to the clones is one of the biggest ones. It’s not like any of the Star Wars movies had any internal consistency any way. George even broke established lore in the second movie by making Luke’s dad Vader.

[@ARC--5973]

@@dingo1547 I don't really think the insult to SW fans was necessary there. And Lucas couldn't have broken canon with Empire, as the story for the OT was created simultaneously as it was originally intended to be one movie.

[@donutstudios6353]

i mean in ROTS palpatine refers to cody as 'commander cody' so they always had nicknames

[@jackodonail1980]

In Legends, clone officers were assigned names to make them better able to interface with their Jedi Generals.

[@Dendricklystable]

I love both depictions. They're both two really good interpretations Tcw- the clones are tragic, they went through awhole war of character development, only for it all to be taken away from them in an instant. They were essentially in sidious's plan to defeat the jedi, and yet they were tossed aside the moment their use ran out. It really shows just how detatched the Sith are, viewing people as nothing more than tools to meet an end, contrasted with the jedi who treated the clones like one of their own I also like the original interpretation for all the reasons mentioned in this video

[@SocalCoyote]

I like to think it is because the viewers only saw just a tiny, minuscule lens of the war in 08 series. If we saw other legions following other Jedi, it would be interesting to see their unison and relationship. Not every Jedi valued clones, and not every clone regime respected their Jedi general. In short, we only saw one formula from the chain of command. The greatness of the great rubbing off to the good they lead.

[@dennis.edich1998]

True. So does this mean that most clones would have executed Order 66 even without the involvement of the inhibitor-chips or do the clones not even know about the order in new Canon until the moment it was issued? I mean the chips are just a failsafe to ensure every clone followed it, but what do you think about it?

[@SocalCoyote]

@ I think for the average clone, they hardly or would not have felt much of an effect.

[@diegomendez3943]

I don't think it really hits hard if they chose to excute order 66 if they were never friends to began with, if they were friends then that would hit hard

[@EwingAmaterasu]

I think, and I remember when I first saw order 66, that the tragedy was the Jedi being executed, not the clones "betraying"them. Order 66 hit hard because it was in that moment, when the Jedi order fell, that is how episode III depicts it, not friendly clones betraying their Jedi friends.

[@sealco]

@@EwingAmaterasu but the jedi had like zero reasons to like them since we never really saw them act or do stuff, plo koons death in the movie was more of a oh no, so anyway whos gonna die next, and then after clone wars came out, watching that scene you felt bad because plo koon was someone who was a deep and caring jedi, the death of the jedi is sad, but now with the inhibitor chips, everyones being betrayed and losing thier lives or in the clones case free will

[@mstash5]

The inhibitor chip or whatever it is takes away from the Clones' _loyalty._ Their loyalty was of course to the Republic, not to the Jedi Order. There were second thoughts and doubts among some of the men when the order came down, which doesn't make sense or fit with a mind chip and shows what a stupid idea that was to begin with. What made the "betrayal" hit hard is that the forces which the Jedi had both served with and commanded for years turned on their warrior lords when they were obligated to. Remember that by implication, Order 66 meant that the Jedi were the ones guilty of betrayal. Any hint of tragedy with Order 66 was totally butchered by the false imaginings of the new 'canon'.

[@sealco]

@@mstash5 i disagree, the chip makes it bette, imagine not having control of your actions, imagine killing your sibling(or cousin if you dont have any sibs) despite spending most of your life with them, no choice in what you do, your own body killing without your mind having a say

[@mstash5]

@@sealco imagine _having_ control of your actions and doing it anyway, killing your former generals in cold blood because they are traitors and your absolute loyalty is to the Republic, not to the Jedi Order.

[@KDMSHOWCASE]

Couldn't agree more

[@OodieMcGroovy]

Best depiction of the clones was from the Republic Commando novels. Regular line troopers had their own personalities and names but were not as outspoken about it to non-clones. Characters had to earn that trust to know their real names.

[@gwyn5144]

Short answer yes. Number 4 and kid humor clones is a far cry from what they should be. They are clones. Meant to follow orders and have little personality. The ones with personality are supposed to be the main guys. And even then they aren't supposed to be children. They are supposed to be harsh, militaristic. Stoic. Ect

[@Billyblue98]

4:47 The thing about the Kaminoan's statements about the Clones is. . . they could just not be as perfect as they think they are I mean, I could be reading too deeply into things, but even looking at that scene, the camera is *focused* one one Clone in particular who's looking around, perhaps distrustfully or otherwise discontentedly, while many Clones around him were just going 'business as usual' Well, there's another Clone behind him that's also looking to his left, but he might just be talking to a Clone next to him Overall, I prefer the 2008 show, but I do have an appreciation for 2003 to 2005 depictions and lore as well. One could probably find a way to pseudo-merge them together, in a way.

[@arc6330]

4:26 i mean im pretty sure even in legends there are some clones that disobeyed order 66 so it seems like some clones overtime develop a sense of morality and friendships with other people thats strong enough to make them disobey orders

[@LLegaLLizeITxC2]

both interpretaions are awesome and since star wars canon is fucked anyway i dont mind it at all

[@wizard_of_poz4413]

Look you can appreciate the characterization of the clones in the 3d show, however you can't argue that they didn't write themselves into a corner that they could only get out of with an insanely broken and inconsistent magical macguffin like the inhibitor chip

[@ARC--5973]

How is it inconsistent? What in the films makes it impossible for these chips to exist?

[@wizard_of_poz4413]

@ARC--5973 the way they're used in the material that shows them is inconsistent and contrived. Sometimes the clones are mindless zombies, sometimes they're perfectly functional humans that just seem mad, there's no rhyme or reason to what the chips actually do because they're not a well executed plot device, they're just lazy writing coming from the frantic desperation of a team that doesn't want to touch any of the complex and uncomfortable morality of following a command structure vs your conscience. Legends and the prequels didn't need this stupid cop out excuse because they treated their audience like mature adults

[@ARC--5973]

@@wizard_of_poz4413 You're right about not wanting to show the conflict between command structure vs conscience. Instead they used the clones to symbolically show the death of freedom and its replacement by totalitarianism, you know, the entire overarching theme of the prequel trilogy. I don't think that either approach is necessarily better or worse than the other on paper, it simply comes down to execution. As for the inconsistencies with the portrayals of the chips in canon, I'd need specific examples. Tupp was specifically a case of malfunctioning chip, so discrepancies between him and others is to be expected to some degree.

[@arthurg.calixto3338]

I mean, it's pretty consistent what the inhibitor chips do. It just forces them to do very specific orders by the people with clearance to do said orders (AKA Palpatine).

[@gameking501]

I think you read the Kaminoans’ remarks regarding the clones slightly too literally. Of course they would describe their creations as the perfect soldiers, obedient to a fault, but I think the actual depiction of the clones is meant to reflect the realities of cloning. Within the 2008 interpretation, I feel like the intention was to highlight how even identical clones would express distinctive personalities and traits (whether through mutation or nurture). Likewise, the show describes how the cloning process became more difficult as the host’s DNA began to degrade, leading to greater irregularity in the clones. Both shows express distinct interpretations to the clones, but I far prefer the more humanistic characterization featured in the 2008 show.

[@CloneCommanderCrater1102]

If you're just going off the 2003 Clone Wars series then yeah, the Legends clones definitely appear to not have much in the way of individuality or personality, but the books and comics in Legends definitely paint a bit of a different picture. Sure, they're still a good bit less individual than the ones in the 2008 series, but there are a lot of regular old infantry troopers that have individual thoughts, dreams, personalities, names, and humanity.

[@rourkefilms9511]

I like both, but I do have more of a soft spot for the 2008/Canon clones like Rex, Fives and 99 with how unique everyone is. However, it is neat to see what 2003/Legends Clones are like. Being like early Stormtroopers that are only loyal to a corrupt government. Overall, I believe this is a very interesting and well-made video.

[@oneironaut420]

Yes. It’s clear that the clones were meant to be the stormtroopers of the OT but the show made them so likable that now they had to alter George Lucas’s original idea. Then they had to dance around the fact that the clones were genetically altered to be totally obedient by changing it to some kind of inhibitor chip that’s responsible for their treachery. Lame.

[@meo2360]

Honestly while I don't mind the original SWCW and I see the point you make about the betrayal I think TCW is so much more tragic. Just looking at the scene with Rex and Ahsoka, seeing Rex trying so desperately to mutter those words "find fives" before giving in. This moment when watching for the first time seems like an eternity even though it's less than 10 seconds. The Bad batch in my opinion makes this even better, seeing the clones lose all the personality and individuality they fought for and slowly realizing what they did is heartbreaking. Also I think this is a much better explanation for replacing them than just their faster aging. This is just my opinion though you can think about this however you like.

[@spacewizrd]

I definitely see your point. I was a bit too harsh on TCW by implying that there wasn’t as much of an emotional impact simply because of the chips. I’ve rewatched this and even now I disagree with myself on that part lol.

[@mstash5]

@@spacewizrd you shouldn't, because you were on point, dude. The brain chip or whatever it is takes away from the Clones' _loyalty._ Their loyalty was to the Republic, not to the Jedi Order. There were second thoughts and doubts among some of the men when the order came down, which doesn't make sense or fit with a mind chip plot. The actual "betrayal" is quashed and thus, so is any tragedy (and real, relatable emotional impact) because human free will is gone. It's both lame and inferior storytelling.

[@diegomendez3943]

@@mstash5 Why can't he change his mind?

[@mstash5]

@@diegomendez3943 he can, obviously. I'm saying that he was right the first time.

[@diegomendez3943]

@@mstash5 And why can't he be right the second time.

[@hasthehighground8560]

Not even a little. It made them more tragic and interesting. It gave them individuality then stripped them from it in an instant and made them turn on their friends.

[@noone-mo6gy]

I'm going to be honest, as much as I love the tartakovsky 2003 series, I hate its depiction of the Clones, the only reason I watch that series is because I love the other characters, anytime McClone scene comes up I usually skip it unless it has one of my favorite characters in it.

[@sebestyenhriczu9510]

2003 clones: humans without soul, 2008 clones: humans with soul.

[@dennis.edich1998]

Well. It's true that we see a lot of clones have their own personalities in 2008 TCW, but these are just a handful of millions of others throughout the whole Grand Army of the Republic. The whole point is that the clones we see that are more individual are under much more letient Jedi generals. Comparing Anakin's legion/clones to other ones and the others are much more like the 2003 clones. Just look at clone trooper Dogma in Season 4 during the Umbara Arc, who was fiercely loyal to Pong Krell and ready to betray his brothers before Rex influenced him to make his own decisions.

[@sebestyenhriczu9510]

I think similarly as you. The complication is that when we see clones in the 2008 show, 95% of the time it is a clone with a personality and only rarely one without. The way the show presents the audience with these stories always makes me think that most of the clones are like the ones we see a majority of the time. So 2008 CW is intentionally skewed. It didn’t make much effort in highlighting that the clones we see are supposed to be a minority.

[@persuisixh4804]

3:45 when the jedi got involved they stopped the extermination of defective clones

[@persuisixh4804]

also 3:54 we dont see more of them because they arent soldiers, they work other random jobs, and often dont have physical differences

[@ZontarDow]

I hate the chips because Knightfall could have been great to see in the show which clones we'd been following made the choice to follow the order and which decided to disobey.

[@defalttheloner]

the clones in the 2008 series dont feel like the type of army that would win a war, so did the droids and even the villans didnt felt like a threath. everyone on the 2003 animation feel like powerful, strategic professionals that could in did win wars. seeing jedis destroy full battalions with the force alone made their fame be justified, and them fearing the sith meant that sith where even more dangerous, the droids felt precise and organized like a true self concious war machine and the clones like born and made elite soldiers. Legends overhaul is better in my opinion since i first saw about star wars

[@arthurg.calixto3338]

Star Wars doesn't need to be Warhammer.

[@Stardiplomaticincident]

Oh and with 99, the Jedi convinced the kaminoens to let him live

[@EvilOurpleWizard]

I think the clone wars is an accurate depiction of war, it kinda reminds me of Vietnam, a useless war that was never won by either side with corrupt leaders on both sides, and how the clones act is reminiscent of 'Nam soldiers with the nicknames, helmet and vehicle art, deserters and loyalists, it's a perfect depiction of war, and I really enjoyed it.

[@persuisixh4804]

I think people dont think its as good because there is a lot of kids show stuff in between the war parts, but I agree, they did a good job showing war, the chaos, the many many downsides, and how soldiers have to deal with war.

[@SteveMills-h3p]

In my opinion the clone wars did not ruin the clones. It was sad the way they were used and eventually tossed aside. If u think about it this kinda thing is common in the world everywhere.

[@fabiofernandes9122]

the legends explanation is better and fulfills the same message aswel

[@testingmyaudioaddiction3452]

I mean, this video (though hood) seems moot because George Lucas created the idea for the 08 series, I put more weight into it’s legitimacy in the timeline than the first one, which comes off as a fan film of sorts.

[@tiranito2834]

omg, imagine calling 2003 clone wars a "fan film"... then I guess Episode 2 is no longer canon and it's just a "fan film", despite the fact that George Lucas directed the film? bruh.

[@kenwabb]

@@tiranito2834you completely missed his point

[@CaseOKernels]

I think they kept 99 because they wanted to boost morale and kind of say they won’t be discarded

[@persuisixh4804]

cannonically the jedi stopped the deleting of defective clones for moral reasons as they had a lot of discretion over the training process

[@CaseOKernels]

@@persuisixh4804 understood

[@RPWStudios]

I agree 100%. I had the same opinion for so long.

[@garbotoxins840]

I way, way prefer the 2008 version because it allows for more stories. In the 2003 ad-break shorts, they're action figures, in 2008, they're characters. The inhibitor chip is also a great tragedy. They spend the entire war fighting mindless droids only to become mindless droids themselves. There are certain eras of clone storytelling, too. There's the spaarti clones and their clone masters that were suggested in the legends thrawn trilogy, the 2003 multimedia project, and finally, the 2008 inhibitor chip take that is the currenr version. With that being the canon George Lucas take, I doubt that more wrinkles will be added to them.

[@danielkong6767]

Although the clones are probably one of the few parts i like in TCW, i vastly prefer the more sinister clones in legends. Sure, the personalities were great, but the inhibitorchip just felt like such a kid friendly plot device were lazy writers can say: ”These are good guys dont worry timmy..” Sure, the clones in cw2003 didint show that much personality, but thats were the other medias come in. For me specifically, the take in BF2 2005 had such a lovely sinister take. The clones in the journal campaign still had personality, but there was also nuance to their reasoning. You could see humanity in between their robotic rule following. There were no plain good or bad guys in that depiction. In contrast to TWC (clones/jedi=good, grievous=bad🙄). Also, Temuera Morrison’s dialogue in that game is emotionally unmatched(imo) Rant over, a real banger of a video! Looking forward to more *subscribed*

[@PBRatLord]

I really don't like a lot of things about TCW, especially all the changes to the lore and just generally the way action scenes were handled throughout the entire series. It's a kids show, I can accept certain facts, and I do enjoy the clone portrayal to a point. However, I'll forever have Karen Traviss' darkly jaded interpretation of the CW era permanently etched into my psyche, and is the perfect in between of the 03 and 08 clones. Especially how it shows the disconnect between how they were trained and the real world, they get jaded quickly once they realize they are more capable than their jedi officers. Plus, I'll never forget staying up late every night for nearly a month as they aired every episode of 03 pt2 leading up to the release of RotS.

[@mazkeraid4039]

It works for Clone Wars Multimedia Project, but not the 2008 depiction.

[@ji3792]

2008 its more tragic because it reflects that for much the clones try hard to be individuals they are just slaves at the end and its more tragic

[@dennis.edich1998]

Well. It's true that we see a lot of clones have their own personalities in 2008 TCW, but these are just a handful of millions of others throughout the whole Grand Army of the Republic. The whole point is that the clones we see that are more individual are under much more letient Jedi generals. Comparing Anakin's legion/clones to other ones and the others are much more like the 2003 clones. Just look at clone trooper Dogma in Season 4 during the Umbara Arc, who was fiercely loyal to Pong Krell and ready to betray his brothers before Rex influenced him to make his own decisions.

[@ildephonsus8313]

Yes but its suposed that they are like Kids learning from their fathers and experiences

[@aydenjenkins8760]

It is tough, I really like both interpretations. I especially love what they did with the Clones in The Bad Batch. But overall, the cold, silent, and obedient clones of the 2003 Clone Wars fit much better with the Prequel trilogy. The Clone Wars 2008 took a lot of creative liberties, quite a bit do not really fit in line with the Prequels.

[@dennis.edich1998]

Well. It's true that we see a lot of clones have their own personalities in 2008 TCW, but these are just a handful of millions of others throughout the whole Grand Army of the Republic. The whole point is that the clones we see that are more individual are under much more letient Jedi generals. Comparing Anakin's legion/clones to other ones and the others are much more like the 2003 clones. Just look at clone trooper Dogma in Season 4 during the Umbara Arc, who was fiercely loyal to Pong Krell and ready to betray his brothers before Rex influenced him to make his own decisions.

[@aydenjenkins8760]

@@dennis.edich1998 Dogma still had a face tattoo and unique armor design, that is pretty characteristic. Not to mention, Obi-Wan is more by the book compared to Anakin, and he had clones like Waxer and Boil in his Legion who ended up having more characteristics. There's also Cut Lawquane who ended up completely deserting and starting his own family. Yes, there are a lot of Clones in the grant army of the Republic, but it seems to be a common theme in the 2008 Clone Wars that the Clones have more characteristics than was originally shown before. Of course there was Delta Squad from Republic Commando, but that was explained by them being a specialty unit. That was not the norm for regs in the Clone Wars multimedia project.

[@dennis.edich1998]

9:29: and after they fullfilled that purpose (Order 66), they continued serving the Galactic Empire as the first generation of stormtroopers for years.

[@alanviniciuswanderleytavar4399]

Bro's not cooking at all

[@peterparker1683]

Nah bro absolutely is. Let him stay in the kitchen

[@skilledarma]

Yes. Absolutely spot on, great video I’m amazed more Star Wars fans don’t come out and say this. Filloni, Lucas and Dee Bradley Baker absolutely ruined them by giving them personalities. It’s the same way order 66 was ruined by the control chip rubbish.

[@CloneCommanderCrater1102]

You do know that clones having personalities and individuality is something that existed before the 2008 Clone Wars series, right? There are so many clones from various Legends books that have names and different personalities.

[@peterparker1683]

@@CloneCommanderCrater1102those were arc troopers and commandos. Not rank and file clones

[@CloneCommanderCrater1102]

@@peterparker1683 Sicko, Corr, Levet, Gett, Dox, and Clutch are all regular infantry troopers and infantry officers that would beg to differ.

[@elkosins1686]

because dna doesnt determine your personality you can have different personalities despite having the same genetics that is biology 101

[@arthurg.calixto3338]

The inclusion of the inhibitor chips 1- Literally don't break movie canon at all. 2- Makes the storytelling for that era much more flexible, as it actually allows them to have characterization and has possibly awesome plot beats like the Clone Rebellion actually make sense 3- Gave us awesome characters like Captain Rex and many others It was a great thing for the franchise.

[@fabiofernandes9122]

its was an awful thing for the franchise and made it stupider and uninteristing. having a bunch of indoctrinated clones that are biologicly wired to be subserviant to orders of the republic is 10 times more interesting than clones having a stupid chip that can malfunction if they bump their heads hard enoupgh and spoil the entire conspiracy.

[@AhsokaFanboy1138]

So, clones are creative thinkers superior to droids, but they are also devoid of free will? 5:31 Don't believe everything in a sales pitch. 8:14 One of the reasons that show sucks. 9:57 Why would Palpatine leave anything to chance at the most important moment?

[@nickmiller9910]

No, it made them the characters we love

[@aitipsea3909]

As an avid Grievous fangirl I can tell you right away Good riddance to that generic sack of garbage from 03

[@corywilson532]

You could say that, in service to the clones' individuality, they're loyal to the Republic. And a clone going AWOL, and starting a family, could still be seen as loyal to the Republic by ensuring a future and working towards the Republic's interest. That, or the Kaminoans fuggin lied to secure a sale XD

[@histguy101]

The Tartakovsky series are like ww2 newsreels. Season 1 is essentially republic propaganda, showing the heroic Jedi and clones in the struggle, winning battles. Season 2 is less focused on clones and more of a prologue for ep3. If you read the books and comics, youll find interactions with the clones totally in line with TCW. Hell, even in Ep3 we see Obi Wan's clones laughing and having banter. The chips arent chips. Theyre like a alice of their brain that has been genetically altered. They call them chips in the episode, but when they explain it, its totally organic and grown in the clones. Its like a tumor that the kaminoans cause to grow in their brain which inhibits their free will. Order 66 is something that was brainwashed into them via their flash learning. The inhibitor chip merely stops them from being able to disobey it

[@dennis.edich1998]

9:28: How the hell did the Legends clones know that it was their highest authority, Chancellor Palpatine or in this case, Darth Sidious, who gave them the order? I mean he wore a black hood and was hardly recognizable and why the hell did they address him as "My Lord"? If we go the new Canon route, it doesn't matter since it's just the inhibitor-chips kicking in but if we go the Legends route with the clones from "Star Wars: Clone Wars", specific clones like Cody or Gree didn't seem to bother that Palpatine/Sidious was dressed that way when they received the hologram with the words "Execute Order 66"

[@altEFG]

Dave Filoni is like a fanfiction writer to have given permission to actually retcon the original work to make his fanfiction canon

[@parkaller7959]

Have you forgotten that George Lucas also worked on the Clone Wars. George Lucas approves of Dave Filoni’s retcon.

[@altEFG]

@@parkaller7959 There is nuance. The original Clone Wars cartoon was made during active development and filming of the prequels. There was a huge Clone Wars media project with interconnected media, including books, comics, games, etc. Clone Wars cartoon was a part of that. I think Lucas is at his best creatively and as a producer when he's actively working on his films, after than he gets a laid back attitude and starts messing around with his finished works. Just look at the Special Editions. I think is what happened. After Episode III George switched to his "let's fuck around, throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks" and generally started giving much less of a shit. He became convinced that Filoni is the right man to continue the franchise, gave Filoni his blessing and freedom to play around with Star Wars setting, threw a few ideas at him and then his involvement was quickly diminishing. And even during that, he made a terrible decision to release pilot episodes as a movie, theatrically, which the crew was strongly against. Filoni in his turn abused that trust by essentially making The Clone Wars not about adding to George's story and expanding it, but by finding ways to retcon not only the EU (if he even acknowledged EU even a single time) , but even the movies to fit in his own characters and ideas. That it the problem to this day: he basically ignores anything that isn't TV series produced by him.

[@nimashahidinia4503]

I like your treatment better. The Clone Wars (CGI series), instead of inhibitor chips, could have included several story arcs where the Jedi generals tried to bond with or relate/appeal to the clones and even succeed, but only be betrayed in the end via Order 66 anyway because the Kaminoan's programming was too great. It'd have given Obi-Wan even more reason to doubt Luke's ability to redeem Vader in ROTJ (recall, Obi-Wan wanted look to confront and kill Vader because he thought Anakin was gone). Even now, in the Bad Batch series, **SPOILERS** ...Commander Cody's questioning of the Empire (inhibitor chip included, btw) isn't making much sense to me.

[@HazopGaze]

There's a bit of a theory going around right now that the chips wear off over time. Guess we'll find out as the series goes on, eh?

[@spartanparty3894]

The Clones being actual people is the most important thing The Clone Wars did for the prequels. It retroactively strengthens every element of those movies by injecting meaning into regular movements. The Prequels is more tragic because the artificial nature of the Clone Wars hurt not only the Jedi, but also the weapons used to kill the Jedi.

[@dennis.edich1998]

I think in Legends (where Star Wars: Clone Wars is included) the Jedi actually have themselves to blame for their own demise, and in Canon (where Star Wars: The Clone Wars is included) they actually don't deserve their fate and I would like to explain why I see it this way with a few in-universe reasons: The clones in both Canon and Legends are slaves to Palpatine, just in different ways. Both versions of the Grand Army of the Republic were forced into a galactic war they were never asked for. Clones from Canon are victims to mind-control aka the inhibitor-chips while clones from Legends are slaves to their indoctrination and genetic modification. However, Canon Clones and Legends Clones have different paths in their lives. In both continuities, they start out as heavily indoctrinated soldiers taking any order without question and the Jedi Order starts out feeling uncomfortable with the blind obedience in the clones. The thing is, they take different approaches to this issue: In Legends, most Jedi keep a professional relationship with the clones, which does nothing to counter the dislike the clones have to the Jedi for being too peaceful. In this case, it makes sense for the clones to unhesitatingly follow Order 66 because in a way there is no choice other than the state. They are conscious of what they're doing, but with the exception of more independent clones like Arc-troopers and Clone Commandos, what reason do regular clones have to betray the state they swore loyalty to for leaders they don't like too much? So in a way, they are treated much more like expandable war machines. In Canon, the Jedi instead try to influence the clones. They teach them to be more human and more independent thinkers. They have close friendships with them. They teach them that they are not expandable war machines. The Jedi and Clones become comrades. Now, would some Canon Clones still carry out Order 66 by their free will? Yes. Just look at Dogma and Crosshair before they realize their mistakes. However, wouldn't most Canon Clones hesitate to kill their Jedi leaders before following orders if there wasn't some type of mind-control involved, thus alerting the Jedi? I mean, the clones were even reluctant to execute Pong Krell, an actual traitor who hated clones. Dogma had to do it and felt like he needed to justify himself right afterwards. Canon and Legends are just too different despite their similarities. The clones from both continuities started out the same, but turn out to be different in the end. Due to all of this, they only become more humanized in Canon while in Legends they (naturally) remain much more droid like and much more unquestionably receptive to Palpatine's orders. It is very clear that most Legends Clones would stick with the Empire because of how I just described them and I don't think I need to tell much more about that but I can also see a good reason why a few Canon Clones would stick with the Galactic Empire as well after their chips deactivate themselves. They're designed to be soldiers, just soldiers. Even if they don't like the Empire, there’s no other organization for the clones to fight for. They wiped out the Jedi, the Separatists were their enemies and are now scattered, and there’s no Rebel Alliance (yet). There’s only the successor to the Republic, the Empire. Since the clones have no skills in the civilian sector and probably have a negative view on mercenaries, the Empire is all they have, even if they do not like it and even if it's trying to replace them. In a way, it's like falling to an addiction. In both continuities, the clones were replaced by human recruits, the only difference is, Legends Clones served the Empire for a few more years after Palpatine decleared himself Emperor and the clones served along with regular human recruits and Palpatine still saw the clone army as useful after the downfall of the Jedi Order due to their lack of independence and stronger obedience. Canon Clones were replaced not long (almost immediately) after Palpatine decleared himself Emperor. The Empire wanted to get rid of them as quickly as possible due to their greater independence and individuality.

[@dennis.edich1998]

1:38: Well it's true that we see a lot of clones have their own personalities in 2008 TCW, but these are just a handful of millions of others throughout the whole Grand Army of the Republic. The whole point is that the clones we see that are more individual are under much more letient Jedi generals. Conparing Anakin's to other ones and the others are much more like the 2003 clones. Just look at clone trooper Dogma in Season 4 during the Umbara Arc, who was fiercely loyal to Pong Krell and ready to betray his brothers before Rex influenced him to make his own decisions.

[@knowledgehub9271]

They ruined the separtist tho

[@Stardiplomaticincident]

Given that the clone troopers wouldn’t be as popular without our current clones (Rex, bad batch, fives, waxer, etc) and all the attention and development they’ve been getting… I’d say no, they were not ruined. Without the clone wars there basically wouldn’t be clones as we know and love them. Fans didn’t love clone troopers when the movies or the original show came out. They only became fan favourites after the 2008 show started. Also, the original clones didn’t really have enough scenes, characters or development to be “ruined”

[@fabiofernandes9122]

yes it did.

[@Lime-green-death-beam]

Great video

[@lennartgamer2339]

No it did not

[@peterparker1683]

I hate the depiction of the clones in TCW because it completely contradicts the original films and the old EU. The clones aren’t supposed to be your friends, in fact in the old lore the Jedi saw them as expendable and this led to a lot of resentment between the two. This also leads to the current problem of today if Diloni just breaking continuity whenever he feels like it. Star Wars fans gave him too much credit

[@garbotoxins840]

Seeing people as expendable is I think extremely out of character for most jedi. Pong Krell does this, and he's a villain who wants to join Dooku. If jedi see the clones as expendable items, they may as well be sith, and order 66 imo doesn't work if the jedi were all scumbags that deserved it.

[@sealco]

Both work, but i think the best parts of the no chips has never been expanded on, but with the chips the best parts are expanded upon, one other thing, if the clones without chips are just evil order following soldiers, then they are just droids, droids but stronger, it is a clone army vs a clone army. Why care about any clone if you know they will kill the jedi without question, no longer would we care about clones because of how they act or help each other, we'd only care about the most bad ass clones

[@ThatTallBrendan]

0:00 **Cough** ʸᵉˢ **fourteen minutes of black screen**

[@GrayStream-pl7ot]

I feel like you should’ve mentioned battlefront 2 rise of the Empire campaign while talking about clone wars 2003

[@oneoftheclones]

No

[@peterparker1683]

I hate the depiction of the clones in TCW because it completely contradicts the original films and the old EU. The clones aren’t supposed to be your friends, in fact in the old lore the Jedi saw them as expendable and this led to a lot of resentment between the two. This also leads to the current problem of today if Diloni just breaking continuity whenever he feels like it. Star Wars fans gave him too much credit

[@ARC--5973]

It is impossible to contradict that which was never canon to begin with, such as the EU. And there is nothing in the films that would contradict the characterizations of the clones in the show. There is in fact, a direct contradiction to your own point about the Jedi not valuing the clones, as Anakin shows concern for the lives of his soldiers during the opening battle.

[@peterparker1683]

@@ARC--5973 except there is dialogue in the film that says the clones are not independent like Jango Fett. Yet in TCW they are committing treason and deserting. Rofl and you are wrong the EU WAS canon

[@ARC--5973]

@@peterparker1683 George Lucas himself disagrees with you about the canonicity of the EU, so get bent I guess. Furthermore, the line you are referring to says that they were modified to be LESS independent than Jango, not that they were turned into literal flesh robots. People like yourself who just blatantly hate the idea of the clones having any form of depth or character development confuse me, as the only reason I can fathom that you think fleshing out more of the universe is a bad thing is that you are mentally handicapped. Oh, and the fact you didn't even try to offer a rebuttal to my point on you fundamentally misunderstanding the idea of the Jedi and their philosophy is just the cherry on top to prove to me my above conclusion is accurate.