Did The Empty tomb of Jesus Really Happen?

[@allenhonaker4107]

I doubt the Romans gave the body back. Their policy was to leave them hanging as an example of what happens when you cross them

[@James-ll3jb]

Historically wrong but when did mythvision fans ever care about facticity.

[@CharlesPayet]

@@James-ll3jb historically he's quite right. That's what Romans usually did. While Jewish authorities would have dumped his body in a mass grave for criminals.

[@sp1ke0kill3r]

Wouldn't bet the ranch on that andwhether they did, doesn't change anything. Even if you grant JoA burying Jesus in a family tomb you still don't have Jackinthebox Jebus popping out of the tomb

[@James-ll3jb]

@@sp1ke0kill3r I read an historian recently who'd written on Roman crucifixion policy and he totally refuted, with sources, the conjecture that bodies of the condemned were as a matter of policy never returned to relatives, etc. The Ehrman/Crossan belief they were dumped onto garbage heaps or left on the cross interminably to rot is simply false.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

@@James-ll3jb TY. The Empire had installed Jewish puppet kings in Israel and Judea, and these kings attempted to pacify their subjects by allowing for the practice of Jewish laws, including their burial laws. Financial inducments may also have been a factor. Joseph of Arimathea was a rich man.

[@pragmaticcrystal]

We Are MythVision ‼️

[@danielsnyder2288]

No, next question

[@Bunnokazooie]

Love JDC's zoom background

[@James-ll3jb]

Self promoting stupidity

[@georgesparks7833]

Very very interesting dialogue, I also listen to Dr. James Tabor...

[@SuperFredAZ]

Empty tomb? Occam's razor: Someone moved the body or it never happened

[@PrairieChristianOutreach]

Occam’s Razor only works if all things are equal. They are not. The naturalistic explanations have a far greater chance of being accepted…they weren’t 🤔

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

@@PrairieChristianOutreach I mean, the mostly likely is that the empty tomb story was a later invention, making the story more dramatic and offering a bit of "evidence".

[@nsbd90now]

I remember being a kid in the 1960s (in Catholic schools) taking it all seriously enough to actually read the Gospels and totally remember the first time reading the footnote that Mark ended with just an empty tomb and the rest was added later.

[@James-ll3jb]

@@nsbd90now From which I deduced the ending was deliberately nonexistent rather than lost because it mafe me feel oh so sincere lol! You're really embarrassing yourself now, nsbd90now lol!

[@nsbd90now]

@@James-ll3jb You sound desperate and panicked, James.

[@James-ll3jb]

@@nsbd90now I'm actually having a jolly good time delving back into this circus again. It's been awhile! Lately Berman had a jackass on convinced the entire NT was penned as satire lmfao!

[@georgeaguilar6996]

You Failed to read all that happened after.

[@James-ll3jb]

@@georgeaguilar6996 After what? And no, you have no way of knowing that. Lol

[@moesypittounikos]

Dale Alisons book on this is a phenomenal piece of detective work. He even dismantles Doms ideas very well

[@archbishoprichardforceginn9338]

Preyz Gord for your Wisdum and Discernment

[@James-ll3jb]

😂

[@jelitone1197]

The most transparent guest MythVision has had.

[@mushtaqobaray7529]

Wow, this i hear for the first time of possibilities about Jesus. Why no one hinted to these options before.??

[@nsbd90now]

You generally have to be at a graduate-level of religious studies to get all this kind of material.

[@realLsf]

It is strange that the people of that time never said that Jesus didn’t exist

[@mushtaqobaray7529]

@@realLsf It is the christians of today believe Jesus Pbuh never existed. Most Jews of that time never believed Jesus as the Massiah or even a prophet. It is Islam that honoured Jesus and cleared his mother, of being a illegitimate son of a Roman soldier called Pandora.

[@nsbd90now]

@@realLsf What an astoundingly dumb comment.

[@tbishop4961]

You should start doing a "fit of the day". But do temple garments from time to time

[@theunclejesusshow8260]

Don't forget to mention the Curious Girdles and Bonnets that Moses made the Priests wear in Leviticus 🤡

[@tbishop4961]

@@theunclejesusshow8260 you need more practice, padawan

[@kimbronun6649]

Out of curiosity, why is it important for Jesus to be a historical figure? All that's important is his way, his character traits which is free for us to possess. Concerning yourself with whether he was fictitious or a historical figure is to be fixated on a shell, a book cover. It was only ever about what was IN him which is also in us all.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

It's important for people interested in history and the development of religions.

[@peterharley8408]

Why would jesus, who was an enemy of Romans & rejected by his fellow Jews even have a tomb or casket?

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

Because Joseph of Arimathea was rich and and could provide the necessary persuations to make it happen. And Jesus was not an enemy of Romans.

[@talonanthony]

Come on already there was no empty tomb,pure mythology.

[@MrDonPreston]

That is funny. Show us the body. Even the Jews did not deny the empty tomb. No one EVER attempted to produce the body.

[@gergelymagyarosi9285]

​@@MrDonPreston I'm not sure we have authentic Jewish sources about this. Only Christian sources about what the Jews supposedly have thought.

[@marialuizaponcianocampos5608]

What wait ,he's John Dominic Crossan an atheist.😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@MrDonPreston]

@@dirkjensen969 Extra ordinary claims-- such as this-- demand extra ordinary proof. What is your proof, other than skepticism?

[@MrBadway_636]

@@dirkjensen969 Wellps, these magicians managed to do the impossible...look, they have the whole world in awe💁

[@coliv2]

From what I see, this channel should be renamed, because this guy buys the flawed premise that the gospels are based on the life of a real person called Jesus.

[@haydenwalton2766]

exactly. I think derek used to be a mythicist, but isn't now. I don't know of anyone else that has understood the material and been a mythicist and then changed their position.

[@coliv2]

@@haydenwalton2766 my observation is that he takes the “scholars” seriously and wants the checkmark of having these people as guests. I think he’s mistaken, the Chanel was far better when it was just him and Rob Price (who he doesn’t speak with anymore because of some silly political comments)

[@djparn007]

👍👍

[@PatriceBoivin]

James was the leader of the Jerusalem Church, not Peter.

[@b-spradling]

Hey, I made it to a video in first few minutes! ❤

[@68chewy]

Or he wasn't really dead, woke up and beat feet.

[@quetzelmichaels1637]

Perhaps if you didn't read the Bible like it is a record of historical events... Earth is the Abyss covered in darkness Adam, the Son of YHWH, descended into and rises up from as the rider Death on the Pale Green horse with all of Hades at his heel admiring and protecting him at the resurrection. Adam wields the fiery sword on the day of vengeance as judgment (sacrifice) and is made to be sin. YHWH judged the gods and became the Snake. YHWH is greater.

[@CharlesPayet]

Perhaps it would also help, if you didn’t completely make sh!t up.

[@quetzelmichaels1637]

@@CharlesPayet Why so mean? Do you have childhood issues you are dealing with? David, the Morning Star, rides the donkey. The bride of David rides the foal of the donkey. Blessed is the kingdom of our Father David that is to come! (Mar 11:10 NABO) David, their king, whom I will raise up for them. (Jer 30:9 NABO) Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father (1Co 15:24 NABO) Adam, the son of God (Luk 3:38 NABO) The last Adam a life-giving spirit. (1Co 15:45 NABO) The first and last, beginning and end, author and finisher. Christ rides a horse - of many colors, or aspects, or perspectives. White - The wine press I have trodden alone (Isa 63:3 NABO) Red - Do not think that I have come to bring peace (Mat 10:34 NABO) Black - I came into this world for judgment (Joh 9:39 NABO) Pale Green - Its rider was named Death - Christ rising up from the Abyss (Rm 10:7) - all of Hades is at his heel (Rev 6:8 NJB) the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss (Gen 1:2 NABO) Who will go down into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). (Rom 10:7 NABO) there was a white horse... and he rode forth victorious (Rev 6:2 NABO) Another horse came out, a red one. Its rider was given power to take peace away from the earth (Rev 6:4 NABO) there was a black horse, and its rider held a scale in his hand. (Rev 6:5 NABO) I looked, and there was a pale green horse. Its rider was named Death, and Hades accompanied him. (Rev 6:8 NABO)

[@James-ll3jb]

All conjecture😅

[@James-ll3jb]

Explain the Shroud of Turin Crossan!😅

[@CharlesPayet]

The Shroud was known to be a forgery in the 14th century, and we still know it's fake now.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

@@CharlesPayet Scientists attempted to prove that the Shroud was created in the 14th century. They failed.

[@CharlesPayet]

@@jeffreyerwin3665there is documentation from a Bishop in the 14th century, in which he described who the forger was, the forger’s previous attempts at forgery to get money from the church, etc.

[@haydenwalton2766]

it's fake. the jesus is a mythical figure

[@alexdiehl27]

👍👍🤔🤔🧠🧠🎅🎅

[@peterkropotkin6224]

My two cents is that it's impossible to know what happened to Jesus's body. There are far too many problems with the crucifixion', burial, and Easter accounts in terms of historical plausibility, textual analysis, and literary conventions. - It was exceptionally rare and uncommon for Roman authorities to grant proper burial rites to crucified, and the condemned were often left on the stake for days/weeks. Sometimes they weren't buried at all, or if so probably in a ditch or common grave. - Pontius Pilate's character in the Gospel's is strongly contrasted with secular sources. He was known to be very ruthless & was in fact removed from his post for overreach. Hard to think he would have granted an exemption to Jesus. - The Tomb story becomes more embellished over time, from Mark to John, and details are added which appear designed for apologetical reasons (e.g., Guards). - The burial and Easter story strongly fits the "translation fable" of Greco-Roman conventions, where a person was buried (sometimes in a tomb), only for the body to disappear and the person reach divine status (check work of Kevin McDonald, Robyn Faith Wash, Richard C. Miller, etc.). - The "embarrassment" argument doesn't work because (1) it's not clear early Christians would have viewed women witnesses in low esteem; (2) a proper burial in a tomb (as opposed to the common Roman practices) contradicts the idea in the first place. Not to mention that criterion doesn't work in itself but must be used in tandem with others One cannot disprove the empty tomb story of course, but it's impossible to say with confidence that the tomb burial isn't an embellishment.

[@bunchlead]

The tomb story, makes far more sense than the junk these scholars come up with.

[@James-ll3jb]

@@bunchlead totally!!!!

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

They are not really "scholars."

[@James-ll3jb]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 Regrettably I'm forced to agree

[@terrymarshall5480]

He never was crucified he went home to the father....you all got John wrong...most of John has been added or changed....o. Jesus,,never the word says so....be born again and read John with new eyes.

[@James-ll3jb]

Yes, it did. Paul knew about the empty tomb. Everyone did. The trope of scoundrel Rhet Butler rescuing Scarlett the heiress doesn't mean such things never occurred. And if the trope was ascension or theft how is it still a trope. And it is not altogether clear Matthew and Luke borrowed Mark wholesale. This guy has been making tons of conjectures treating them as fact for decades. Sad.😅

[@CharlesPayet]

90% of Mark (in the original Greek) was copied into Matthew and Luke. Yes, it's pretty damn clear they borrowed it. And no, Paul never actually mentions an empty tomb. He talks about the ascended Christ, but the word tomb never appears in Paul.

[@djfrank68]

And just because a story was written down, and maybe even believed at the time, doesn't mean that story ever actually occurred,

[@James-ll3jb]

@@CharlesPayet But not the historical factuality of the empty tomb itself (lol!). If that wete so no appreciable differenes in the accounts would exist! Read J.A.T. Robinson's "Redating the New Testament" which puts Mark c. 45 and hypothesizes John's gospel came first. If you can take Crossan's notion the 'Cross Gospel' within the Gospel of Peter is as old as Mark you'll love Robinson. Crossan's notion that the tomb story and ideed the whole gospel is merely a parable was refuted aeons ago. But the podcast host is always scouring the coutryside for clickbaiters lol!

[@James-ll3jb]

@@djfrank68 No one denies that. But the resurrection appearanes were first being preached c. 36 a.d. Crossan wants to preserve said appearances as hallucinations but deny the empty tomb, and the podcast host of course loves this kind of quasihonesty lol. That syllogism "If Paul didn't mention the empty tomb, then it is because it didn't happen" isn't even logical lmfao!

[@CharlesPayet]

@@James-ll3jb Robinson is a fringe voice in dating Mark and John, and I see no reason to accept anything he says with anything but a grain of salt as big as Everest. There is no "factuality" of the empty tomb, period. It's a story with no historical basis, nor even a valid rationale for why Jesus would have been put in a tomb. He was executed and would most likely have been dumped in a mass grave. The mere fact that the alleged all-powerful creator of the universe couldn't be bothered to leave a single well-documented and externally verified story of the alleged most important event in all of human history, coupled with the mere fact that apologetics has been arguing about how much is historical for 2000 years to justify it, tell me all I need to know about the "resurrection."

[@luciferlucero]

Yes. Rapture soon. ⚡⚡

[@EvilXtianity]

Jesus is a fictional character.

[@feliperodriguez4187]

​@@EvilXtianity no he's not. There are sources outside of the Bible that speak of him.

[@EvilXtianity]

@@feliperodriguez4187 _"There are sources outside of the Bible that speak of him."_ Contemporaneously? By witnesses? Name one.

[@EvilXtianity]

_"Rapture soon."_ Jesus said his return would be imminent - 2,000 years ago! Jesus told his disciples that they would not die before his second coming: "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom". (Matthew 16:28) "Some of you standing here will not taste death until you see the Kingdom come with power." (Mark 9:1-20) "The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15)

[@AhmedN42]

@@EvilXtianity Well damn

[@EdwardM-t8p]

Dr Ammon Hillman has a different take on why Jesus was crucified. Not for the gospel reason, not for being an insurrectionist, but for being a different, more scandalous kind of λῃστής (léistés). Neal of Gnostic Informant knows him and works with him. Derek, I would love for you to have him on your show.