Did Tolkien REALLY Hate Narnia!? Fact vs. Fiction! | Into the Wardrobe

[@Esmeralda.Pendragon]

Your analysis was very accurate, like you I agree that the friendship between Lewis and Tolkien remained intact despite all the ups and downs of their lives. True, the tastes of both were different and detailed, but they mutually respected each other's works. Jack (C. S. Lewis) loved the works of Tollers (Tolkien's nickname), but it was absolutely mutual. From the essays of Paolo Giulisano, an Italian doctor and essayist expert on Tolkien and Lewis, it is said that John had read Narnia with pleasure. However, he was only perplexed by the fact that his friend had inserted too many biblical connotations into the Narnia saga instead of hidden ones, and by the varied number of characters belonging to several different mythologies. But they had the opportunity to talk about this situation, and Jack explained to his friend that since he was a child he has always loved creating a different connotation of many mythologies in a single story not to create confusion but out of pure passion. The biblical references are there because he, having converted to Christianity a few years ago, wanted to highlight the joy of his return to the right path. So, apart from the doubts about the lion, the witch and the wardrobe, in the end John Ronald appreciated the entire Saga as a whole because it was saturated with moral values and empathy and because it gave important life lessons. So he appreciated Narnia, but it wasn't one of his favorites because he loved Jack's space saga: Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra and That Hideous Strenght, which I finished reading recently. Also because this Space Saga was more defined and had fewer mixes, and more spiritual overtones. I hope you get back to posting Narnia content more often, because I can never get enough of it. Great work, and see you next time. 💝

[@IntotheWardrobe]

Thanks for the fantastic addendum!

[@Esmeralda.Pendragon]

​@@IntotheWardrobeyou're welcome.

[@pippinisawesome52]

If it weren’t for Narnia, I never would have become a Tolkien fan! My intro to fantasy was Narnia. I love both series very very dearly!

[@PhD777]

Tolkien's son, John, took Tolkien to see Lewis shortly before Lewis died. They discussed L'Morte d'Artur and whether or not trees really die as if no time had passed since their last meeting - a mark of true, deep friendship. After Lewis' death, Tolkien offered Lewis' younger step-son, Douglas Gresham, to live with him for as long as he liked. Gresham was accepted at school, so did not accept the offer.

[@jayt9608]

Two things are simultaneously true: Tolkien held a personal dislike of Narnia, and his friendship with Lewis had ceased many years before the death of the latter. However, correlation is not causation, and the former was unrelated unrelated to the latter. Lewis began engaging the religious decline in Great Britain in the 1930s and 1940s and continued until the day of his death, however this was not a particular interest of Tolkien as he fought the decline of classical education. For all that Lewis was as much Hobbit-natured in his own right, he was also more of a religious philospher than Tolkien. Tolkien devoted his remaining years to perfecting and publishing the Silmarillion while Lewis was defending religion. The two then were grandually separated by divergent interests. In the end, Tolkien acknowledges in a letter that he and Lewis had ceased to communicate, though it does seem that each kept track of the other. However, he expresses regret that it had happened.

[@IntotheWardrobe]

Thanks for the note! Your take on the progression of the relationship seems accurate to me as well. At the risk of being an obnoxious pendantic, I wouldn't say the friendship "ceased" a much as it "faded"-- as is natural for many relationships forged by a particular set of circumstances. Also, you don't allude to this but for the sake of other reader's understanding, I would add that there's no evidence I could find to suggest that any real long term animosity set in between the two men. They seemed to simply be involved in different persuits as time progressed.

[@jayt9608]

@IntotheWardrobe Quite right. I was attempting to communicate the view that the relationship faded with no hostility or animosity between these two literary titans. Your note of clarification informs me that I was more obscure than intended. Thank you for clarifying what I did not. As always, I love your content.

[@MsJayteeListens]

There was definitely no rift. Later in his career Lewis was out of favour at Oxford and was offered a job at Cambridge, but turned it down due to the responsibility he had caring for his brother. Tolkien spoke to someone at Cambridge and said tell him he can stay in Oxford and work for Cambridge, which they did. (That was from a BBC documentary about Lewis)

[@Jim-Mc]

Two old dudes can be best friends and not speak for years. I've got friends I used to hang out with almost daily who I haven't communicated with in 10 years and there's no bad blood, life just happens.

[@SambagsStockpot]

I love both equally. My earliest memories are of my Mum reading The Chronicles of Narnia to me, a chapter a day, when I came home for lunch from Infants School (that's for ages 4 to 7 in the UK). I went on to tackle the Lord of the Rings when I was about nine or ten. I am now 54 and have read both the Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia more times than I can remember.

[@-inFinity05-]

This is a great encouragement, because I’ve been working on my own story for some time, and this made me realize that everyone doesn’t have to love it or even like it for it to be good.

[@wespenre3418]

I read Tolkien's LOTR and Narnia as a child, but now, many decades later, I still read them, and love them both. Although the Narnia Chronicles are meant to be children's books, I reread them as an adult and still immensely adore them.

[@tomklock568]

Great job...criticism and critique doesn't equal hatred! It can help to spur one on to better things. I appreciate both authors greatly for their unique contributions.

[@NarnianTerabithian]

This video had my attention the entire time! Great work! ❤ I have always been curious about their friendship, and now I know a little more about it. 😊 Thank you🎉

[@sarahtonen4873]

I could read the Chronicles of Narnia a dozen times over, but I couldn't finish the first book of the Lord of the Rings. Far too descriptive for me, and all those songs............😬 but that's just me.... Narnia speaks to my heart, Tolkien exhausts my brain. Love that they were good friends, but we all have our favourites, and I love Lewis!

[@MightyBiffer]

Funny. I had to read the cliff notes to get through Narnia. The story is too syrupy for me and laden down with too much symbolism. I have read The Lord of the Rings many times as it was intended to be as a single book. I have read all of Tolkien's writings of Middle Earth dozens of times. I have even read his unfinished works and short stories, supplemental materials, and outlines. I have never gotten enough of his writing or world creation.

[@DaisukiJesus]

Same with me. I am so indifferent to LOTR. I finished it all. But it was such a struggle. I thought I was the only one.

[@johnbradshaw2347]

I'm a fan of both their works. And the movies as well.

[@christophervanasse9911]

I visited the Marion Wade Center in Illinois a few months back. Seeing their artifacts there in the same room is a pretty sweet anecdote to this question I think. Great video. Thanks for your work!

[@marinamclain2287]

Thank you so much for this! I was just thinking about this today. I’ve been frustrated and disheartened with content creators in the past claiming proudly and smugly that they hate Narnia just because Tolkien hated Narnia. It doesn’t make any sense to me to hate something because someone you’ve never met allegedly hated it. (I love both Narnia and LOTR btw. But Narnia is what made me a reader. Without Narnia I wouldn’t have read LOTR.) It’s also wonderful to hear that his thoughts and opinions were more complex and layered than people claim and that he had a personal copy of the story that he shared with his granddaughter. Love your channel. It’s so positive and uplifting. God bless ❤️❤️❤️

[@jonathanbrewer7072]

Beautiful accompanying music and artwork. Thanks.

[@Lovesloyalty1429]

I love both Narnia and Middle earth, and their are some things that I like better about Lewis's work, while in other ways I Iike Tolkien's style better. It really is a matter of taste in what we like. Awesome video! I think it's safe to say that we went on an adventure into two worlds this time!

[@philiphamel8504]

Great video, man. I appreciate the insights and discussion. Love both series of books, and I know I'm not the only one. Hope you're doing well

[@nategraham6946]

I will admit, I am still comparatively new to the literature world, and my love of reading didn’t even ignite until my 30s in college and seminary. But I will say, that I absolutely love both. They are some of the greatest jewels of my library.

[@elf1384]

Great video! I enjoyed learning about Lewis's and Tolkien's friendship and their literary careers. I knew that Tolkien didn't like Narnia due to "allegory," but didn't know that Tolkien had different tastes. 🦁❤

[@michaelkelleypoetry]

Holly Ordway's book Tolkien's Modern Reading is a terrific, well-researched book. I read it a while back. As great of a book as Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien is (as well as his book "The Inklings"), he definitely had biases. Diana Glyer's book The Company They Keep (or shorter Bandersnatch) as well as Ordway's research bring a much needed balance to scholarship regarding Inklings studies.

[@jonathanbrewer7072]

Thank you to Stuart and team. As usual, brilliant. My work in progress The Narnia Enigma looks at the difficulty of Tolkien's lack of love for Narnia. Part of the problem Lewis took elements from LOR. This has not been addressed until my work. Must add, Bacchus, Faun , etc is inappropriate in a children's story and Tolkien would understandably not approve ...

[@IntotheWardrobe]

I'd love to discuss further and hear more about your work! I'll send you an email. Thanks for the update, friend.

[@IntotheWardrobe]

I agree about Bacchus, Fauns, and many more! What's funny is that (as you probably already are aware) it seems Lewis retroactively addressed Tolkien's concerns in Prince Caspian with the seemingly superflous lines “I wouldn’t have felt safe with Bacchus and all his wild girls if we’d met them without Aslan”. I actually think the intent has a deeper layer of meaning related to the goodness of pagan myths in light of Christ's true myth. However, the "disclaimer" of portraying such characters in a children's book is also applicable.

[@johnmcafee6140]

In 1961 C. S. Lewis nominated J. R. R. Tolkien for a Nobel Prize in literature. He was rejected by the Nobel committee because they said regarding The Lord of the Rings, “The result has not in any way measured up to storytelling of the highest quality”. Go figure.

[@katherinec2759]

The critics have never understood why people care so much about LOTR. They are so focused on "technique" and "metaphor" and such that they completely ignore what makes a genuinely good story. I'm betting no one today even remembers who won the 1961 Nobel Prize for literature. (Edit, looked it up. The guy who won seems decent, but no, no one today has any idea who he is.)

[@ravenlord4]

For what it's worth, Tolkien was not a huge fan of the Dune series either. Tolkien is allowed to like and dislike stuff, just like everyone else. And Dune and Narnia have not suffered for it. So it's all good :)

[@jennichilton]

Great video!! Also I NEED a video about puddleglum!! He's one of my favorite characters of all time.

[@Sonderwalk]

He’d make a great video!

[@Ben-c6r3i]

Hope more people now can be like Tolkien, saying what he didn’t like without being disrespectful or hateful to those who like it

[@Maria_Miciano_5]

Everyone has their likes and dislikes. But I’m glad that Tolkien despite not liking Narnia was still friends with CS Lewis (aka Jack). Their friendship is very inspiring to me!

[@ethancoster1324]

Lewis was my fantasy icebreaker. Tolkien was my litmus test.

[@j209l]

Thx for all of your hard work on this Channel as well as promoting Boyce College (best School ever!!). I was wondering if you have ever heard of Michael Ward’s Planet Narnia and the theory it posits about the underlying theme throughout all of the books. What are your thoughts on it and would you ever consider doing an episode on it?

[@-inFinity05-]

I love Narnia, and I’ve been trying to get into LotR. Great video!

[@imqxla67]

Yet again? A fascinating video and well thought out. As someone who loves The Lord of The Rings and Narnia? This was a feast to watch and listen to - and to know these two authors were best friends? Just makes it all the more sweeter. Thank you for making this video!

[@obnoxiouslegofan]

I find it ironic how Disney was involved in Walden Media's adaptations of "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" and "Prince Caspian". Because according to a KZbin video by Ink and Fantasy, Lewis hated Walt Disney. When Lewis and Tolkien saw "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" in 1938, they both agreed that they disliked the film's portrayal of the Dwarfs. Disney's adaptations of fairy tales somehow affected Tolkien most of all as they sanitize the fairy tales that Tolkien most likely remember as a child. And in another KZbin video by Ink and Fantasy (about Tolkien's hatred of Narnia), it was said that Lewis' death had greatly affected Tolkien.

[@IntotheWardrobe]

Yes, if I recall correctly Tolkien's problem with the Disney film had to do more with the lack of fidelity to the mythological creatures (the same issue he took with Lewis's Narnia works). For Lewis, I believe it had more to do with the sanitization of the story. Thanks for posting and also for the channel recommendation.

[@obnoxiouslegofan]

@@IntotheWardrobe any time. Been a fan of Narnia as a kid when my sister's godmother gave my family a VHS of the animated adaptation from 1979 by Snoopy the Beagle and Sesame Workshop.

[@fredreindljr1996]

Legend has it that Tolkien based Treebeard off of Lewis (who was a big man with a booming voice).

[@IntotheWardrobe]

You know, all these years I have imagined Tolkien as the bigger (though more slender) of the two, but in researching this episode I discovered that Lewis was taller!

[@fredreindljr1996]

@@IntotheWardrobe I don't know if that legend is true but it's heartwarming to think so.

[@angelb.823]

There was another fun fact that I had read, though I don't know if it's true. It's the fact that Professor Digory Kirke from Narnia was based on Tolkien due to his smoking nature. I don't know if this is the case though.

[@saradowns7842]

@@angelb.823 I think I read that Kirke was based off of one of Lewis' professors in childhood...but it's totally possible it's a combo of the two.

[@timelordvictorious]

Does sound like Tolkean disliked a lot of things. I herd he hated Shakespeare because he blamed him for making fairies more comic and silly

[@fredreindljr1996]

He said the same thing with Disney's Snow White, regarding the names of the Dwarves. Tolkien did indeed dislike a lot of things. Ink & Fantasy has a whole video series of it.

[@jayt9608]

I think hated is too strong. He hated A Midsummer's Night Dream, for that very reason, but I do nor recall that he harbored a similar antipathy for the Bard's work in general. In fact, he wrote the march of the Ents precisely be ause he was frustrated that in MacBeth the forest "moved" only because men carried branches. He wanted the forest to go to war. He wanted more, and so he wrote the story that he would have preferred to see.

[@docsavage8640]

Tolkien was a crank. Who cares?

[@majkus]

It's a complex matter. See Eric Sedddon's "Letters to Malcolm and the trouble with Narnia: C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, and their 1949 crisis." in Mythlore (Sep 2007).

[@jacquicoder7160]

I'm got distracted by something when this video first came out and have just now watched but it was well worth the wait. I love Narnia so I would have been very disappointed if it were really true that Tolkien hated it. I am happy to know especially that it didn't ruin their friendship. I truly enjoyed reading the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and have high regard for the fact that Tolkien was instrumental in bringing C.S Lewis to understand Christianity. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and analysis with us, it was much appreciated.

[@jonathanbrewer7072]

I highly recommend Dr David Holbrook's phenomenological study. I'm using his book as an important source. It's underrated in CS Lewis studies.

[@RedPandaGirl002]

I had recently found out at the beginning part of the Shire theme, it sounds a whole lot like the opening part from the classic hymn, *This Is My Father's World*

[@jeandoten1510]

I got that reference right away--you are the first person I have encountered who recognized it. I wonder if Howard Shore picked that tune because of the text, or the melody, or both. I doubt that it was a mere coincidence.

[@johnbayer9795]

@@jeandoten1510 I noticed this similarity from the start! (Bear in mind that I never saw that much of Jackson's adaptation & am no expert on hymns.) If I were given an opportunity to influence a remake of LOTR, I'd have other music in mind...

[@danielvalencia9218]

Lord of the Rings may be my favorite story of all time but Narnia definitely has my favorite ending. It is impossible to overstate the influence that these two great authors have had on my life and worldview.

[@emanuelosorio9610]

I agree! I am more a LOTR fan than Narnia, but the ending of Narnia is so grand and terrible-the last battle, Father Time wakes up, the reddening of the sun, the stars falling, those who ran to Aslan's shadow, Tash's devouring of Shift, and the closing of the door- and really is apocalyptic. The only ending that Tolkien had to compare was the Prophecy of Mandos, which is only alleged, and not even confirmed. But since we have no other writing of what happens after the Third Age, we have no choice but to accept it. Narnia's ending is, of course, canon. I love how simple and horrifying it is, and how sweet and hopeful it is after the door closes, and Aslan revelas himself

[@artsman412]

I read Lewis first, so he's got the nostalgia factor (keep in mind I still read him later in my life). Even after reading Tolkien, though, there's just something about Lewis's Narnia that grabs me each time. Tolkien's work is the definition of Deep and Complex, while Lewis is more Deep and Simple. Both are great, and one is not necessarily better than the other; as you said it's all a matter of taste. Tolkien is an amazing author, but Lewis is my favorite author. Also, for anyone wanting a new fantasy series, check out the Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander. It's got the simplicity of Lewis combined with the more solid world building of Tolkien. It's my 3rd favorite fantasy series, right behind Lord of the Rings and, of course, Narnia.

[@talithakoum3922]

I just read the Prydain books recently and am only sorry that I somehow missed them as a child. They are right up there with LotR and Narnia as a beautiful, heroic fantasy series that everyone ought to read.

[@mrs.manrique7411]

One doesn’t give poison to a child. Tolkien gave Narnia away, no sweat. ❤

[@docsavage8640]

I'd rather live in, or visit, Narnia than Middle-earth

[@redmagelibra2897]

I get Tolkien's criticism, because the nymphs, fauns, and dryads raised an eyebrow or two from me the first time I read the books. I had already read books on Greek and Roman mythology. However, Lewis writes like an arrow. He has his point to make and everything around that point is window dressing. It is a stylistic difference. Also, children's literature at that time and certainly in their own childhoods were rather linear, and world building was given a spaghetti on the wall treatment. I think we forget how much children's literature has changed in the last 40 years.

[@reaperofthegrey7294]

i like to call Tolkien and C.S lewis. the 2 different kinds of autistic. Tolkien is so meticioulous and obsessive over every detail that its absurd. but cs lewis is like " this story has time displacing wardrobes, and parallel worlds, and snow witches and talking animals, and children who become kings but have to to back to being children again and its gonna be awwwsome"

[@brocklawer7635]

I asked a Tolkien group on their thoughts on Narnia as I like to skip around from Middle earth to Westeros and everyone was positive about Narnia though it is for children. The group liked the book and the space trilogy so I’ll start Narnia soon as I want to discover a new world.🌎 As well as it’s an easy quick read and I grow tired of giant complex novels sometimes.

[@JustTrying87]

Yay, new video! Amazing as always. Thank you.

[@Jaegar_bomb]

Hey mate. I love your channel. I have a request if you don't mind. There is a character I really love from the last battle. Emeth. Could you possibly consider doing a video about him and potentially share some of CS lewis' views on people like him or maybe even universalism? I would appreciate it!

[@IntotheWardrobe]

That's a great idea. I'll put it on the list. Thanks for the suggestion!

[@Jaegar_bomb]

@@IntotheWardrobe awesome! I'm looking forward to it already! Thanks so much.

[@avwillis5269]

My running theory on Narnia's eclectic nature is that it was influenced by Tolkien's famous "true myth" argument that influenced Lewis's conversion to Deism. If that were true, it'd make his rejection of Narnia all the more ironic.

[@faresjabaly791]

Knowing what I know from their works, Tolkien do had fair points for the Narnia books, but to say he hated them was perhaps a strong reaction, after all both Middle Earth and Narnia have number of similarities, number of Locations, and of course the tree people, and if we go further, we could see Eru Ilvatar and Aslan as two celestial beings, existing to gather.

[@gebswife]

I greatly appreciate this video. Thank you.

[@Numba003]

Thank you for the interesting video! I knew Lewis loved LotR, but I didn't really know about Tolkien's opinions toward Narnia. Truth be told, I think I also prefer Lewis's Ransom Trilogy to Narnia, but I do very much enjoy and appreciate both. Either way, I love both Lewis's and Tolkien's work! God be with you out there, everybody. ✝️ :)

[@יהונתןוקניןפרש]

You have and amazing channel love narnia lord of the rings and mythology and fantasy , do you think there others northern witches exepct jadis and the green witch ? Becouse the dwarf on the silver chair said in every generetion the witches tried to control narnia in every generetion so there were others ?

[@aslandarklion8094]

Im a fan of both, personally i lean towards the legenderium of middle earth, but here and there I'll go throught the wardrobe and leave this world behind. 😊

[@amkaen]

I'm very glad to have watched this video, so thank you for making it. I love both Narnia and Middle Earth, but my sympathies always lie with Lewis, because, as a Christian, I think he stayed more true to the greater calling, that of pointing others to Christ.

[@Amlock87]

Can you do a video about the movie Frueds Last Session?

[@autumnmaru]

While i am always upset tolkien didnt love narnia as much as me... i am very greatful for your message at the end saying that people who love lord of the rings should give narnia a try that really made me smile. I honestly dont agree with any of tokiens reasons for not liking narnia. And i would say theres a deeper magic in narnia than lord of the rings simply because of its different mythologies and relgious themes. Theres something special from aslan singing narnia to existing to father time shutting the door. Its that the world of narnia is about a diverse culture of magic beings. Where else would you find a faun carrying parcels to a snake biting a star to the stone table to a story similar to a certain Shakespeare play to a book where a man turns into a muel. Heres a hint, not many. I love these books so much. Thank you jack for not giving up.

[@Rev.RappingChad]

I went to Moody Bible Institute but was there any way I could work or serve at Boyce College.

[@runevi]

Both of them remember their friend Hugo Dyson fondly as the most fun loving of the group, and he was recorded by Christopher Tolkien "lying on the couch, and lolling and shouting and saying, 'Oh God, not another elf!' during The Lord of the Rings.' So it's hard to believe there was a rift. The Tolkien family's persnickety tastes notwithstanding.

[@qienna6677]

I think the best way I'd sum it up is kind of like "It's not bad, but I think you could have done better"

[@gerrimilner9448]

i love both authors, i recommend mere Christianity to new Christians and long time seekers, with a grief observed for some bereaved, screw-tape letters letters is a good read for those who struggle to walk the path (his theology is relatable and he was also a protestant like myself). Tolkien, wrote much on ancient history(ancient and medieval are a special interest of mine, cut off the Tudors (i took Tudor history 'A' level)) and was quite a poet, specializing on a rare ancient type. i read middle earth and Narnia books every year or so, currently I've just finished smirillion and am reading the hobbit, when i finish that i will read lord of the rings (which i once read in a week). i own most of both authors work

[@lindsaysummer5442]

I recently started to read an biography of C. S. Lewis where it says that Tolkien thought it is kind of an insult to the fantasy genre to bring Father Christmas into a fantastic world and to connect our real world with the fantasy. Fun Fact: C.S. Lewis first friend wasn't J. R. R. Tolkien. When he was a young lad, he became friends with a boy named Arthur (who came out to him as homosexual) and they wrote each other letters.

[@VictorDiGiovanni]

Great video. Editing note: cut away to the images or quotes before he takes a breath or licks his lips or opens his mouth. It's currently hanging on many edits just a few frames too long.

[@IntotheWardrobe]

Thanks for the note. Do you have a timecode for that?

[@DEVILTAZ35]

They are both such amazing reads but I would tip my hat to The Chronicles of Narnia. It always felt so much more epic and grand reading that as a kid. I also got far more out of reading the chronicles again recently as an adult too. As a lover of trains I loved that a train played such a pivotal role in that series too. I’ll leave it as that not wishing to spoil anything for anyone who hasn’t had the pleasure of reading The Chronicles of Narnia. In the correct order that is not really the correct order 🙂 As for their friendship, I always found it to be rather inspiring that despite their differences they had the kind of respect for each other for it not to matter. Sadly the person I had in my life that fit that description passed away from leukaemia at just 26.

[@robsaberrations4924]

I find it impossible to believe that there was ever a serious rift in Lewis and Tolkien's friendship due to Narnia. Also, let's remember that one of the purposes of the Inklings was for its members to express criticism of each others' works.

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

05:44 Yeah, Tolkien disliked allegory. He was accused of it. He denied it. Where is the irony?

[@Kakaragi]

“What language do your tree speak?”

[@victoriasrandomstuff]

I love them both and am glad both universes exist.

[@marianparoo1544]

The minute I heard Boyce College my eyebrows went up. High.

[@zekeolopwi6642]

I'm a hard-core Tolkien fan, and while I am not the biggest fan of Narnia specifically, like Tolkien I am a fan of Lewis and his other writings (series, letters, essays, etc). My issue with Narnia is one that I also at times run into even with Tolkien. The gaps in lore and history. And yes, Tolkien had gaps, too. Specifically in regards to a few instances of demographics. Eriador remained a depopulated wasteland for hundreds of years after the fall of Arnor for no apparent reason. Ofc Lewis' worldbuilding has far larger gaps, to accuse him of this flaw while not acknowledging the similar issues within Lotr is disingenuous.

[@YamiSpyroX]

To be fair to Tolkien my tastes are pretty abnormal too (I adore the HTTYD books and hate the films for starters.) but I admit, him complaining about a satyr not being the way he should is a ridiculous one, cause 'y'know' Narnia is a Children's story! Its also silly, that he complains about Father Christmas being included when in his very own Father Christmas letters has Saint Nick battling goblins and even a dragon like it was The Hobbit. I have to say this though, if he had complained about Dionysus being randomly concluded in Prince Caspian as a 'Hero' on Aslan's side (Not going to bring up how inappropriate Camp Director Dionysus is. Tolkien would loath Percy Jackson!) He'd be spot on as a critic!

[@IntotheWardrobe]

This is my favorite post of the day.

[@talithakoum3922]

I would love to see Tolkien and Lewis come back to do a podcast where they rip bad fantasy books - Percy Jackson, Eragon, Throne of Glass, Keeper of the Lost Cities, City of Bones, Twilight - to shreds, smoking pipes and casually referencing Plato and Spenser the whole time.

[@YamiSpyroX]

@@talithakoum3922 I sure would love to see Tolkien vent about everything wrong Rick Riordan does, to Nice-guy Poseidon, to AD-HD kid beating the God of War, and the whole Mr. D rubbish. Although I think he'd find funny the Grover 'Shoot the Polluter' scene considering his own anger towards the 'progressist movement' tearing down the England he had loved. Although...he would be furious reading Heroes of Olympus considering what Rick labeled Mother Earth as! C.S Lewis and Tolkien would probably feel conflicted on Inheritance Cycle. Aside from Tolkien loving/hating Saphira and Paolini's dragons him and Lewis would be busy digging deep into the story trying to find the spiritual meaning in a world were elves declare 'There is no there-after' Tolkien fuming about it being a post-modern copy-cat of Dune/his work with Lewis grimly being reminded of his own story as a Atheist living in that 'supposed' empty world. I wouldn't call Eragon a bad book, but the series ending certainly is teri-bad! I think they would likely enjoy the How to Train Your Dragon books, Tolkien getting a kick out of the dragon-language, but just imagine the flack they'd receive when they start dissing the film versions!

[@JustFlemishMe]

'Percy Jackson' is bad? Damn... Or, rather, dam. I wouldn't even say 'Harry Potter' is bad, though I'm sure Tolkien would, rightly, be foaming at the mouth at how irresponsible and ridiculous Hogwarts is. Lewis seems to be more likely to embrace the whimsy. Now, 'Percy Jackson' and Riordan's mythology novels have their... odd choices, I don't want to deny that. I am probably biased, having first played 'Age of Mythology', but I thought he pushed portraying Poseidon favorably a bit far. Also, apparently he looked at Ovid's work, which would be defensible, if not for him taking inspiration from a Roman for the Greek gods AND giving them alternate Roman forms. Still, they're fun books, and mythology is very difficult to determine a 'canon' version for - Riordan even acknowledged this in 'Percy Jackson's Greek Gods'. Before going on to pick a 'correct' version for the weaving contest between Athena and Arachne, but at least he understood the challenge. And I like to think Tolkien would, too. Paolini started his series at 15, hopefully they'd cut him some slack.

[@YamiSpyroX]

@@JustFlemishMe It does feel like Tolkien would be one of those people who'd be saying 'Its pro- witch-craft!' myself thinking he wouldn't like it till say Deathly Hallows were the Christian themes become prevalent, and it how the Horcrux's compare to his One Ring. (Tolkien is an Conservative through and through so he'd be furious to be placed in Slytherin! Him being an Ambitious writer doesn't make him bad.) C.S Lewis I can see going along with Harry Potter 'Hoh-hum' cause he'd arguably relate to the Boarding School setting, along with Harry's growing angst myself knowing what Lewis's own life story looks like. Eragon I could see 'maybe' Tolkien liking Saphira, but than complaining about the nihilist elves in Eldest, wanting 'like me' something to prove them wrong in the end, the series never hitting that concrete evidence for life after death. Percy Jackson...I think the series is fun on paper, but yeah, Poseidon being too good of a father is a bit much considering his own 'supposed' prone to violent nature, something Percy himself should be having. More so than Poseidon he definitely pushed far too far into Dionysus's favor towards Last Olympian onward witch got especially grievous in the Nico DeAngelo book were he acts like a calm "understanding" child councilor. He was an Absolute monster in his myths much more so I'd think Set was, so to think kids are being handed off to His care I think Tolkien would be losing his lunch at the very thought of it! (Worse when you consider what Perseus was put through by Dionysus, and what Percy was going though with his own drunk step-father.) I think him and Lewis would have fun discussing the mythology itself, but just thinking of PJ's Greek Gods and Greek Heroes books and all the nonsense modern references, I'd be shocked if Tolkien doesn't wind up throwing the books against an Wall! Still RR is better than Scarlet St. Clair. (Barfs thinking about it.)

[@Edge-of-Reason]

Narnia was one of my first loves but to read ot as an adult can at times be painful. Oddly TLTWATW is particularly so, the horse and his boy is the one now. TLOTR however was and is always exceptional. That said lewis wrote it for children and it was as a child i was engrosed. Seems to me that for that reason its a job done.

[@IntotheWardrobe]

Interesting. What sorts of things do you find painful to read as an adult?

[@DenshaOtoko2]

Tolkien and Lewis were best friends for life.

[@raul0ca]

Now do Moorcock vs Tolkein

[@JustFlemishMe]

For the allegory thing: if you actually bother to read the text beyond the famous 'I cordially dislike allegory', Tolkien goes on to explain that this isn't the same as 'applicability' - there are parallels with, say, Catholic doctrine or real history or Norse mythology. The difference to Tolkien was that allegory resides in the will and imposition of the writer, applicability in the comprehension and freedom of the reader. That doesn't mean there isn't, or shouldn't be, authorial intent. But there should be room for the reader's imagination. (Tolkien was big on keeping some mystery; he was even reluctant to publish the Silmarillion, despite considering it his real masterpiece. Fortunately, we nerds immediately started looking at the in-universe history and asking questions.) In practice, he seems to have done this by avoiding one-on-one comparison. Look at, say, Jesus. In Narnia, Aslan is Jesus, plain and simple. There's no other way to read it. And for Tolkien, that is exactly the problem. In 'Lord of the Rings' on the other hand, I've heard Aragorn described as the Jesus figure. Personally, I would have put my money on the guy who performs miracles (magic), gets killed, is resurrected and was sent from basically Heaven (and by God) to save the world from evil. But I see the case for Aragorn: Jesus is associated with kingly imagery, and famous for healing. However, Aragorn is also the long lost, true King, and the ideal of kingship embodied, his sword a symbol of his right to rule. Anyone with a basic understanding of English folklore will see the Arthur connection. But Tolkien didn't use the most famous and iconic part of the Arthur legend. Gandalf meanwhile is very clearly also inspired by Odin, a grey wanderer, possessing great wisdom and always seeking more. There's no one Jesus figure, and Jesus is never the only inspiration. We can see Jesus in Aragorn if we wish. In Gandalf if we prefer. Or we can see Odin in Gandalf. Or Arthur in Aragorn. That is up to us.

[@johnbayer9795]

Many years ago, in college, I took a class on Tolkien & Lewis. The teacher suggested that we could see three characters as Christ figures: Gandalf, Frodo & Aragorn, each hinting at one of three traditional offices of Christ--prophet, priest & king respectively.

[@SkepticalChris]

Honestly, I never liked Narnia either, and now that I know that all my reasons are exactly the same as Tolkien's I know that I'm in good company. But to each their own.

[@therealsimdan]

I love both Narnia and Middle Earth. They are both amazing, rich, stories.

[@douglasfreer]

It’s funny how people can’t seem to grasp that you can both see that something is deserving of being loved but personally not liking it. One example for me is I can see why Encanto is loved but I personally don’t like it.

[@auramoonlight6978]

I don't really know what to say about Mr Tolkien truth be told the only thing I know about him is that he was not a believer of Christ ✝️ like his friend that made Narnia, ever since I learned this it's kind of made me love Narnia more than Lord of the rings, I do love fantasy movies but they're better if they show you behind the scenes of what they truly mean what are the many reasons why I just love Narnia so much 😭❤️ it's kind of like my other three movies the secrets of kells song of the Sea and the Wolf walkers.

[@piotrczubryt1111]

The Tolkien's taste was more refined and severe. But his earliest writtings are in a similarly whimsical tone to Lewis. Probably he saw his friend as less mature and a little infantile. Still I enjoy both writers and their imagination.

[@joanware6473]

They wrote very different books, I heard there was going to be a remake of Narnia films, if so I hope they dont get disneyd up.

[@JG-kq5el]

Tolkien seems to have had very high standards and his own way of seeing things. I don't think there is anything wrong with that and he appreciated Lewis' works for what they were, but not what he would have written.

[@franohmsford7548]

Seriously, how many people have really read Lord of the Rings BEFORE reading The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe? Now ok my dad read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings to me and my younger sister when we were in nappies but I didn't read Fellowship of the Ring all the way through myself till I was 12 and at that stage I'd already finished Narnia! I'm not sure you can claim that the Tolkien fans who don't like Narnia have dismissed it out of hand without even reading it! I have personal issues with BOTH btw.....I've only ever managed to finish Fellowship of the Ring {the book} that one time {when I was 12} and even as an adult I cannot make it through that book a second time! {which also means I've only ever read The Two Towers and Return of the King once too {when I was 12}. And I absolutely LOATHE The Last Battle! On the other hand I love The Magician's Nephew, Voyage of the Dawn Treader AND The Hobbit!

[@IntotheWardrobe]

My claim wasn't that there are LOTR fans who didn't like Narnia, it was that there are those who don't give it a chance before passing judgement because of Tolkien's opinions. Undoubtedly that category exists, and they're missing out on a wonderful world!

[@franohmsford7548]

@@IntotheWardrobe "Undoubtedly that category exists" Really? How do you justify that statement? People who care enough about Tolkien's opinions on Narnia would surely already be Tolkien fans right? And Tolkien fans most likely also read the Narnia series as children right? Maybe there are some who got into LotR through the movies as adults and went back and read the actual books but again just because one hadn't read Tolkien as a child does not mean one hasn't read Narnia as a child - The Narnia books are much more accessible than Lord of the Rings or even The Hobbit. The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is up there with Roald Dahl and Enid Blyton as a book that pretty much every child in the UK who liked reading at all had read by the time they went to secondary school! - And reading Narnia as an adult isn't the same experience.....They are Children's books in a way that The Lord of the Rings isn't. So the sort of person {which again I would say is a small minority} who came to Tolkien as an adult through the movies then got into the books, then started attacking Narnia because supposedly Tolkien himself didn't like it without ever having read any Narnia works themselves is probably not going to be swayed by actually reading The Narnia books because again those books were written for 10 year olds! I can enjoy re-reading The Magician's Nephew or A Horse and His Boy at 47 because it's nostalgic but I can't see a 25 year old Atheist coming to those stories for the first time after having read The Lord of the Rings and being anything other than bitterly disappointed with what is clearly a heavily propagandistic religious allegory written for children.

[@IntotheWardrobe]

Perhaps our disconnect has to do with our perceived audience. Here in the US the vast majority of school-age children do not read The Chronicles of Narnia (speaking as a person who was a child in the 80s and 90s). Can grown adults read and enjoy what you call a children's book? Well, I for one enjoyed discovering The Chronicles of Narnia as a college student. I know several parents who never read the stories as a child but read them to their children and enjoyed them as well. What a shame it would be for those people to pass over this wonderful series based on the very particular tastes of Tolkien.

[@SilverScribe85]

Why would Tolkien, of all people, hate world-building in fantasy; much less Narnia? As for the religious stuff; personally, I see them as rather subtle when compared to the over-emphasis on religious tones in modern media (sometimes even anti-religious ones.) Rick & Morty and modern Family Guy are two notorious examples of the latter

[@bigsarge2085]

Interesting!

[@highfae]

It’s funny because I see all stories as allegorical, and all worlds as a hodgepodge of included energies- even our own, every iteration of it throughout time (even the future), a differently medley of the stuff we choose to bring into physical (like writing the stories you access through your imagination, inventing new items, the popular characters and gods/goddesses in the societal mainstream that represent what energies we’re all collectively inviting into Now). That’s why spiritual teachers say the world you’re in is a reflection of you, because it’s reflective of what’s active in you and the collective, Now.

[@PeterPan54167]

Tolkien was way too smart for his own good. I like his work and he was a pretty cool dude, but he really didn’t like anything. And struggled to see artistic merit in anything that wasn’t in his style. Didn’t like Walt Disney films although his stuff was pretty high quality and was on par with Casablanca and Gone With the Wind ( not a dunk on new Disney either, but Walt was a true filmmaker in the keenness sense of the word). Didn’t like Treasure Island, didn’t like Narnia. All I can really say is he’s lucky he was just a little fussy, and not a complete monster like Miyazaki, Otherwise he would be completely unlikeable. I’ve read in the comments that Tolkien may have had a problem with some of the pagan elements in Narina, which sort of strikes me as odd seeing as he apparently enjoyed the Conan stories by Robert E Howard. And before anyone asks, yes, that Conan. These are the stories that the famous 80’s movie masterpiece was based on, and those stories were pulp, so imagine how gorey and R ratted that movie is and multiple by it by two.

[@gustyko8668]

I disagree with Miyazaki, I don't believe he's "such a monster".... I do agree that he's a veeeeery opinionated individual.

[@PeterPan54167]

@@gustyko8668 Miyazaki is an arrogant so and so, he hates America and has emotionally abused his son all of his life. Tolkien was opinionated, a lot of his opinions I disagree with, but he was a nice guy who was genuinely a good man and father.

[@gustyko8668]

@@PeterPan54167 do you have any source for that statement? No, seriously.... I'm being curious.

[@PeterPan54167]

@@gustyko8668 I do, however I doubt it would copy and paste into the comment, the A.I. on KZbin prevents stuff like that sadly. However if you type in Miyazaki’s son on KZbin or on Google it will come up! Let me know how the search goes!

[@meloralovesdarkness2495]

They are Bot Formidable Minds and immaginative Writers! Tolkein was Far mor meticulous than Lewis for Sure, (He had been working the Silmarilion, for most of his life!).. The question of Jealosy comes up.. Why did Lewis come up with stories so quickly?? = They are not SOO Complex as Tolkein! Just like Lloyed Alexander's Prydain.. = Very intuned, with a mythose, but you do not have to be a scholar to understand it all! Tolkein's Middle Earth on the other hand, as well as Frank Herberts DUNE, are quite complex in what they are! To TRULLY understant the LOTR's, is to READ the Other books! Which most people, can not do, as they are kind of Boring to Most. I have talked with a few fans of LOTR, who can not Stand the Silmarilian.. I on the other hand LOVE it, as I have read it twice! But people who READ are starting to dwindle a bit.. They are engaged in video and AI = Echk! 😞 Please keep buying and reading BOOKS & Not Kindle! 🙂

[@maxweII_demon]

Tolkien did not despise Narnia. Alec Guinness did not throw darts at a Star Wars poster. and Radiohead does not put holes in their walls because of Creep.

[@jennifergwyneth9546]

I love both series, but they are definitely not the same kind of fantasy!

[@BeansInABun]

Just ask them

[@skeinofadifferentcolor2090]

I do know without a shadow of a doubt that Tolkien and Lewis definitely had a lot of division when it came to Faith. Even though Tolkien converted Lewis to Catholicism, Lewis then converted to protestantism which caused a huge rift in their friendship. Tolkien was angry and saw Lewis's conversion to protestantism as a betrayal.

[@gustyko8668]

To my knowledge, Tolkien never convinced Lewis to convert Catholicism, he only helped his friend regain his faith in Christ. Tolkien was just disappointed that Lewis didn't choose to convert.

[@IntotheWardrobe]

Thanks for you comment. This seems to be a common claim, but I've never seen any evidence that their theological disagreements caused any sort of real or lasting rift in their relationship. Do you have any first or secondhand accounts as evidence for this?

[@skeinofadifferentcolor2090]

​@@IntotheWardrobe It's no secret that Lewis adopted anti-Catholic tones and messaging in his non-fantastical writings. This did offend Tolkien who was a Catholic. Token was very disappointed that Lewis did not become a full-fledged Catholic like himself. Tolkien was upset that Lewis used religious tones and themes in Narnia. Furthermore, it is no secret that between Catholics and Protestants there is a huge rift.

[@RodericGurrola]

Can you please do a video about Narnia werewolves

[@Omnitrickster0207]

I heard rumors both men hated Disney is that true

[@asdisskagen6487]

While I find CS Lewis' LWW series charming and have given it to all of my grandchildren, I agree with Tolkien's evaluation; the mythology is messy and inconsistent and the Christian overtones are extremely heavyhanded. Even as a Christian I think the story would have more universal appeal with less proselytizing, not that my humble opinion of such a great man's literary work is worth a hill of beans. 😂

[@IntotheWardrobe]

I plan on revisiting this soon, so thank you so much for commenting. One thing I have grown to understand is that for Lewis, mythologies have no clear dividing lines, neither temporally nor geographically. It all blends together at the edges and carries over. As a result, I am beginning to suspect that the “messy” mythology of Narnia was intentional (like everything Lewis wrote)-a means to communicate his own beliefs about the nature of myth. I want to do some more research to solidify this suspicion but it seems more than likely to me at the moment. As for the proselytizing, I think the supposal was so rooted in the framing of Alasan as Christ, it was certainly unavoidable. Whether or not it was the most universal writing approach may be debatable, but on this side of history it seems that broad appeal wasn’t too much of a problem, doesn’t it? In any case no one can argue with your own opinions and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to share them. You’re in good company with Tollers! Cheers!

[@asdisskagen6487]

@@IntotheWardrobe I look forward to hearing your analysis :)

[@MrClawson99]

The fact is that Narnia has led people to Christ, that is more than most books can do!

[@terrystewart1973]

_" The *Odd* and intense friendship" _ What was odd about it for heaven's sake? They were both Oxford academics, with shared interests in early English literature, language, philosophy and later religion. Plenty of people in the past have had pretty intense friendships with people of their own sex, with no hint of any actual sexual factor between them.

[@IntotheWardrobe]

No one mentioned any sexual factor in the video. I'm not sure where you got that impression. It was an odd pairing in the sense that their tastes, writing styles, and even personalities were so different. However, odd is not the same as unusual.

[@MobileRaidr]

Im with Tolkien on the while too much religion stuff... honestly i wish you talked eeven just a little less about it...sorry just how i feel....still like the chanel tho

[@LatinRoots-k3z]

Imagine if he didn’t like Harry Potter Jk:😢😭😭😭😭

[@TheBlueWizardOfWestVirginia]

Good video, silly ad, education given if you go to church no thanks

[@docsavage8640]

Tolkien was a crank who complained about Shakespeare. Why would I care what he thinks of Narnia?

[@AsakuraYukiko]

I like both.