Dillinger Gang's Winchester 1907 Self-Loader: The Lebman Conversion

[@XtreeM_FaiL]

-Cuts compensator. Because of cuts on the compensator? -No. Because of the inventor, Cutts.

[@lothbroke]

We all know the real reason Winchester had to use that forward charging plunger was because John Browning owned the patent on the side charging handle.

[@Hosenfuhrer]

Imagine if they figured out an AR-style charging handle for it back in 1907, so it would circumvent the Browning patent.

[@mrjockt]

The same reason for the Winchester Model 1911 SL shotgun having to be cocked by pushing the entire barrel back to push the bolt back.

[@benn454]

@@mrjockt That's gonna get toasty on the ol' digits real quick.

[@mrjockt]

@ From what I’ve heard it resulted in a few nasty accidents as well, people had a habit of putting the butt on the ground and pushing the barrel down, which meant you ended up leaning over the barrel as you cocked the shotgun, oops.

[@josephknaak9034]

@@mrjockt the self loading rifles are way better than the set up on the 1911 shotgun. A very similar set up was used with the Reising carbines and SMG’s.

[@kodiakkeith]

If Lebman was in business today he'd be 3D printing Glock switches.

[@skrenos]

The price of aluminum dropped quite a bit until the 1930s. In 1880 it was $12 a pound. In 1888 it dropped to $4.86. In 1893 it was 78 cents and by 1930 is was down to 20 cents a pound. There's no reason not to believe he didn't use aluminum.

[@IWatchedWhat]

You really need to get access to the one at Tucson police department.

[@zadfnark7814]

I have a Winchester model 1910. My brothers each have a model 1905 and 1907 that my Dad had before he passed away. I'm glad I just learned how to lock the bolt open in this video. Being blowback, there's a lot of spring pressure on these. Some of my .401 WSL ammo appears to have been converted from 7.62 x 39 ammo.

[@Kaboomf]

I handload for my 1910, using 7.62x39 brass. In case you want to load for it, here's some basic info: Use new unfired Lapua brass, or if you can get your hands on some Starline Grendel Basic brass then that's almost exactly a .410wsl case and saves you a bit of work. Use .41 magnum dies and a 7.62x39 shell holder. .41 mag is shorter than .410 but is damned close in diameter, so using a carbide sizing die meant for .41 you can resize .410 just fine. The first time, you need to resize the brass all the way down to the rim because the base diameter is a hair too large to chamber. That can be done by not using a shell holder, just lay something flat across the top of the ram and run the case all the way up until the rim stops against the die. Have to remove the decapper rod first, and knock the case out of the die again with a rod from the top. This only needs to be done once, the first time you form a case. Lee has a .410wsl factory crimp die that they sometimes do a short production run of, creep your eyes open for that. It is the correct length for crimping brass made from 7.62x39, which is a bit shorter than original but works fine. Bullets are a problem, nothing factory made is exactly right any more. Diameter is sort of halfway between .40 and .41. Either get yourself a bullet mold and shoot cast lead, make or have made bullet resizing dies to swage down (or up) jacketed bullets, or modify the chamber a bit to have a longer freebore so you can safely use unmodified .41 revolver bullets. I chose the latter route, as my rifle is mildly bubbaed to begin with so no historical value is lost by making it able to shoot available bullets. .410" bullets are slightly oversized for the nominally .4075" bore, but with a bit of extra freebore that's no worse than shooting soviet spec 7.62x39 .311" bullets in a Ruger Mini 30 with its .308" bore. The bullets swage down to fit the bore, no problem. The need for more freebore is just to make sure the oversize bullets with a different ogive shape don't jam themselves into the rifling when chambering a round.

[@Lomi311]

Check out C&Rsenal’s video on the 1910 for a lot of little details on the gun that were sort of lost to time

[@Nick-n3b]

A full auto 1911 without provision for a shoulder stock seems like an even more questionable weapon, so I don't see any particular reason to doubt that a full auto version was made.

[@wingracer1614]

Yeah and it sounds like this guy was more than competent enough to do it. And clearly these gangsters weren't all that concerned with practicality in lieu of firepower. Interestingly enough I just found a post from a guy that had the early .22 version. It surprised him quite nastily by unexpectedly firing full auto.

[@provenancemachining]

@@wingracer1614 Lebman, like most other gunsmiths that take on custom work, was likely just doing what he was paid to do as long as it made sense within his skill set. I wouldn't doubt that half or more of the requests he got were insanely impractical or ridiculous, but I also wouldn't test saying "no" to John Dillinger or anyone else like him if I could help it at all.

[@daviddegeorge2667]

I dunno, it doesn't sound all that impractical honestly. It's what, half a BAR on the cheap? Maybe not the most accurate gun but spray and pray works.

[@SuperMarshall2009]

A few episodes on Lebman might be in order : )

[@manoharjishnu2009]

My father always fondly talked about a Winchester .401 rifle which he said he used as a teenager to his early 20s. I could never any info about neither the rifle nor the cartridge he was talking about and it was only recently I stumbled upon the 1910 in internet. He is nearly 75 year old now and his memory about the gun is not that clear. However he immediately recognised it when I showed him a picture of it. And he distinctly remember the self loading mechanism and how much he struggled to reload the cartridges because of the rarity of it in general...let alone in India in the 50s and 60s. He still don't remember how he acquired the gun. Only that he had to let it go as he was leaving for his higher education.

[@CrownBoron]

A Winchester .401 rifle in 60s india is definitely a rare find. What did your father do?

[@manoharjishnu2009]

@@CrownBoron My Grandpa was then the manager of a rubber plantation (one of the biggest in the country) and the whole estate was very much bordered with forest. This means a whole lot of interaction with wildlife and hunting was part of life. Pops was born and brought up there and was into hunting at a very young age (even though Grandpa was not, not even into guns).

[@Lomi311]

Definitely check out the C&Rsenal 1910 video if you want a very detailed run down of the guns design, history, and shooting.

[@rds978]

Not too surprising to me that somebody like Lebman could survive until 1990. My grandparents both made until the mid 80's and they were about his age. My grandfather had some interesting stories about dealing with the mobsters from that era. He ended up working for a company that delivered wholesale chicken to restaurants during the great depression. The company was owned by a gangster and the truck had a secret compartment in it where they hid alcohol. Grandad would go in make his delivery and while he was inside the gangsters would unload the alcohol. One day he walked out of his delivery and a rival gang pulled up and shot up the restaurant he was delivering too. He just threw himself on the ground while they were blasting away. He wasn't thrilled about that, but he kept working there and continued to deliver to that restaurant because it was the great depression, and he had a family to support.

[@Matt-md5yt]

I know right, my great grandpa was around during Pretty Boy Floyd.

[@daviddegeorge2667]

My grandma sold farm seed door to door during the depression. Rural California, so no mob connection, lived till ten days shy of her 100th birthday. Amazing woman, took care of "old people," her words, till she was 80, 3/4 of which were younger than her.

[@jon-paulfilkins7820]

Describes it as a brutal gun to shoot Says he's going to take it out and have some fun at a 2 gun match His shoulder will no doubt question his idea of 'fun'.

[@wingracer1614]

Unpleasant in this case doesn't mean it's going to destroy his shoulder. I mean it's roughly equivalent to 30-30 so not a ton of recoil here but that huge reciprocating mass in straight blowback is going to be a smack. Not a hurt you kind of smack but a this thing sucks kind of smack.

[@josephknaak9034]

@@wingracer1614 I have a 1910 and it is more of a thump than you would think, but more like a 35 Remington than a 30-06. You can feel the action moving in the fore end which is weird. You pick it up and think 30 carbine, but it is not.

[@high633]

I have a 1907 and while it is unpleasant given its small and rather handy size/weight it doesn't hurt per say. I would say how it feels as far as how the recoil comes in wouldn't be to far off from like a browning auto 5 or remington model 8. Just alot of mass moving at a decent clip suddenly stopping. As for taking it apart further than ian did for the bolt. Don't for the love of god dont. That recoil spring is like 12 inches long and is like a 30+lb spring and in order to reassemble the bolt in place you need to fully compress the spring. All while keeping the unsupported spring straight cause you need to insert a guide rod down the front of the bolt under the barrel and with fine threads screw it into the receiver front. There is afew youtube videos about doing it and they make it look atleast 10 times easier than it is. I know cause my 1907 had a broken firing pin when I bought it so the bolt had to come out.

[@rupertbaskerville]

I'm looking forward to seeing what hat 1930's gangster Ian wears at the two gun match.

Will there be shoulder holsters, and fedoras?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

No shoulder holster, because they don't meet range safety standards.

[@dodsonarmsco]

There were other conversions of the 1907 to 45acp with fullauto used in the Cuban revolution. You can see them in photos with a drum magazine. I have a 1907 and a 1910 which were shortened to around 16" barrels and the stocks were shortened to make them about the same size as a thompson they came out of the border area between Georgia and florida. The person that made them used modified 1903 front sights.

[@bizget]

Woah. I inherited a 1907 in .351WSL, which itself was only used for hunting, I had no idea about most of these stories! Love this.

[@betriz_07]

Hey it's the gun from Battlefield 1

[@RevanAlaire]

Ironically, it is not that powerful in Battlefield 1.

[@lathanchurch8352]

Lol

[@CKshouta]

@@RevanAlaire because there is only so much you can do with a simple blowback. Think hipoint in rifle form.

[@Jack72607]

In Bf1 is a no damage no recoil laser beam. 180 grains at 1800fps means 16% more recoil energy than 7,62x39 and with a straight blowback it would mean very harsh recoil. They should have made it a 2-3 shot kill gun like the other self loaders with better handling and large capacity magazines fast to reload but balance it with brutal recoil and lower range and muzzle velocity compared to full power semi auto rifles

[@sheldonsipe5673]

That was my same exact thought!

[@sssss8700]

90 years from now there will be “gangsta” action matches that consist of sideways held Glocks and naked tube ar pistols without sights.

[@daviddegeorge2667]

Don't be stupid. Tech-9 repros mandatory.

[@Lomi311]

The C&Rsenal Winchester 1910 episode has some awesome stories of these guns used in air to air combat. A guy in a balloon actually shot down a fighter with 4 shots from a 1910.

[@metalburner357]

I weld soft tooling for automotive prototype development, and that hand guard on the original is absolutely zinc. Aluminum doesn't oxidize to that color.

[@wingracer1614]

Most likely but I have seen some stuff cast from what was called an aluminum alloy but was actually mostly magnesium that looked like that. No idea if that stuff was available in the 20s and 30s but it definitely was in the 50s and 60s.

[@Youtubefishdoc]

Fun fact: I used to say hi to Homer every day when I worked at Lindenwood Cemetery here in Fort Wayne.

[@icewaterslim7260]

Did he ever say "Hi" back?

[@heneryhawk11]

Great video! Charles Askins said the 1907 was the first choice of 1930s Border Patrol agents. They were issued 1917 Enfields and bought the 1907 with their own money. He used the 1907 in one shootout but usually used a remington model 11. The Lebman 1907 was used by Homer Van Meter and was used by baby face nelson in his final shootout. His tommy gun jammed and he used the 1907 to kill the two FBI agents. He had used a lebman 1911 to kill one FBI agent and wound others at the little bohemia shootout.

[@dddddyyn]

While casting is certainly a possibility for how Lebman made the metal forend, I think a sheet metal weldment is also a possibility.

[@icewaterslim7260]

Probably more likely for a short run.

[@russbilzing5348]

A friend had a Model 1910 in .401 WSL, with which she shot Zebra and other such critters in Africa and even Polar Bears in Alaska. As you mentioned, the rifle had a vicious recoil to it and she was one of those 4' 11" , 89lb. forces of nature I nicknamed "Weeble". I still have 2 rounds of her .401 ammo and have played with the idea of creating a side by side pistol for them but, as you might imagine, perhaps only Scott of "Kentucky Ballistics"would be capable of handling the results.

[@devindunne]

Honestly doing a retro henry homesteader mocked up like this wouldnt be too bad

[@rocketman8476]

I wonder if John Dillinger would’ve been a fan the Dillinger Escape Plan

[@PrecisaS]

He would be terrified to hear Baby's First Coffin

[@evulclown]

Love these super cool Gangster era cobbled together weapons!

[@shawnr771]

Nice rifle. The M1911A1 with the front pistol grip is probably the origins of the No front grip on the pistol rule.

[@rump438]

I've wanted a 1907 since i first played BF1. Its such a beautiful rifle.

[@JohnSmith-pl2bk]

Imagine that forward vertical grip sliding on a track...with an extension going forward and up over the cocking lever. Hand on the forward grip, push a button allowing the handgrip to slide back and cock the lever back... push the grip forward to the 'resting" position and release the button. It wouldn't have impinged on the Browning patent...

[@megacluckcluck2302]

But the “Autoloading 8.25 Extended” is so much better :)

[@DooxTrebucket]

Any plans to cover the Dillinger 1911s?

[@sergentharker7182]

Honestly, the idea of cowboy action shooting with a 20s gangster style is actually kind of rad

[@vaclav_fejt]

Criticise the digital camera in Public Enemies all you want, that movie was so stylish. It made me feel like I was there, better than Heat. Granted, Heat is overall a better movie (with better story), but it doesn't have Jason Clarke firing away from his Thompson at a towering prison, or a shortened BAR in a bank robbery. I don't remember *this* gun there, but I'll be sure to look for it on my next rewatch. I'll always remember that evening in 2009 in my local cinema...

[@Goblin420-og]

Ian’s videos interesting as always Love gangster stuff and good history stories I have subscribed for years I’ve lost a couple of accounts over the years due to being stupid and forgetting passwords n stuff lol I think forgotten weapons is one of my first ever subscriptions 😱 Thanks for the hours and hours of entertaining education sir 👍🇺🇸🇬🇧🇺🇸🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇺🇸

[@KristijanRisteski-zp7bx]

Maybe now, BF1's playerbase will jump from 10 to 11 players.

[@S7eveThePira7e]

Speaking of Primers, C&Rsenal has a great video on the 1907.

[@TheArklyte]

If I recall right, cartridge of Ribeyrolles was based on .351 Self Loading used in this rifle. Why haven't there been any other attempts to make an automatic rifle with it? Main "brick wall" many designers, who've dreamed of intermediate rifles, faced was lack of cartridge, but in this case it was a ready commercial cartridge existing for decades. Why wasn't there a ".351 M1 Carbine Model 1924" or something like that?

[@dbelex]

Had one in .351. Traded because ammo and reloading dies were ridiculously expensive. It was a prison surplus.

[@Tornado1861]

I love my Lebman inspired 1905. I use it in prohibition themed matches.

[@josephknaak9034]

I always thought this cartridge was a little more powerful than 357 magnum. But it sounds like this is more powerful than the 30 carbine and pretty close to a a 44 magnum out of a carbine.

[@wingracer1614]

Way more than 357 or 30 carbine. In terms of energy it's very close to a 30-30

[@josephknaak9034]

@ I love the old wives tales passed around at deer camp. 351 Winchester is to light for eastern deer. 30-30 is great. I had an old timer who hunted all his life in the UP tell me 30-30 was barely adequate for deer, but 32 Winchester Special was a deer slaying machine. He hunted most of his life with a 300 Savage so at least he did pick a good one for himself.

[@oldesertguy9616]

I can't believe the difficulty in disassembly of the rifle. How would you properly clean it? Also, I can believe it being full auto because, as impractical as it sounds, so is the full-auto 1911.

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

Fellow Lebman 1907 repro owner here. The Cutts and a fresh recoil buffer make this thing a lot nicer to shoot than a base 1907. Yours looks like it needs that buffer btw. Oh and yeah, reassembly suuuuucks. It's mainly trying to get that dang recoil spring back in place, which you have to do by compressing it unsupported to get it between the forward weight and the receiver. There's a method involving a shoe lace which makes it easier, but it's still not fun.

[@burnsboysaresoldiers]

Fun fact, the border patrol agents liked purchasing them while chasing banditos

[@tiptopdadddy]

You should do an interview with Defragged History. She has the most in depth series on JD. I live in Indy and am a historian, but this lady takes it to a whole other level. Talking about the weapons of the Dillinger Gang with you and her would be super interesting

[@workingguy-OU812]

That reveal is crazy; I've never seen a hand-held blow-back with that much moving mass.

[@greggionfriddo1992]

i own a 22 , a 35 , 401 and 12 ga self loader. all pretty cool old guns

[@chesterman86]

man, this front grip is so nice and classy

[@philipleiser2090]

Everybody is gangster till Forgotten Weapons roll up with a full auto Winchester..

[@logcabinlooms]

If you're interested in the .351 Winchester, I do have a playlist of 1907 videos on my channel, including bolt removal and reassembly. It's the only way to replace the buffer. The recoil on these is not really hard, it's just odd because of the reciprocating mass of the counter weight, you get used to it.

[@matthewthomas3413]

I was here thinking you were at the cody firearms museum.

[@Jeffersoniananti-federalist]

Looking forward to the match video!

[@Cr0wmagnum]

Now that was absolutely fascinating.

[@MitchFlint]

The legend behind the name of today's Winchester 350 Legend & 400 Legend cartridges.

[@scottrobinson3281]

I have often thought that the .351SL would have been a more effective choice than the .30 Carbine round, but in the same gas operated design. 180@1900fps = 1443ft.lbs vs.110@2000fps = 977ft.lbs.

[@KevinC2793]

army wanted .30 caliber so the jigs used to bore garand barrels could be reused.

[@Fireandiceautok9v]

Please do a thing on the dillinger 1911😊 thanks

[@drakeandres9504]

Pretty sure they just added this gun In enlisted

[@MrPitro95]

After this...i really wish to see the Springfield prototype with the vertical magazine from BF1

[@ForgottenWeapons]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4Cqqn2Ge9-BnLc

[@EricDaMAJ]

It amazes me that the people who anticipated the modern tactical AR the most and the first were gangsters.

[@MythicMagus]

Seeing the Thompson grip and Cuts compensator mounted on a traditional western rifle like this made me chuckle. It makes me wonder if the Gangsters wanted something that "looks like a Thompson".

[@JippaJ]

In the original pictures the handguard looks like a cast piece. The colour also looks more like aluminium than zink, but that could just be the old pictures deteriorating.

[@bigbelix]

8:50 The picture confirms it's zinc too very cool

[@bigredjuggernaut1994]

4:51 A blicky with a switch.

[@jameslawrie3807]

How did they clean the firing pin etc?

[@digitaal_boog]

Homer Van Meter was eventually captured by his arch rival, Peter Car Yard

[@stephenhensley7004]

One of, if not the most enjoyable KZbin videos I have seen in months. Like a fair ladies skirt, it was short enough to keep it interesting and long enough to cover the subject. How ironic that Chicago is chasing after Glock, when auto-pistols were in the city almost a century ago. Seems the issue is not the weapons, but the abandonment of law enforcement and firm court sentencing of convicted criminals.

[@LuGer212]

Ahh, my trusty Sweeper

[@Stuballs]

Great video ian

[@samuelprice2461]

Had a chance once to pick up an SL1907 once for a decent price. I ended up passing on it because I didn’t want to get into another obscure caliber.

[@fastdraw73]

You forgot to mention the rifle that worked the same way and came out before the 1905, 1907, and 1910. It's the Winchester Model 1903 in .22 Auto. That gun had an internal magazine in the butt and was Winchester's first semi-auto that worked like the simple blowback rifle shown here. The reason why they used the .22 auto was because they needed a bullet loaded with smokeless powder and .22 s/l/lr back then may have been loaded with black powder. Black powder would have fowled a model 1903 very quickly.

[@Sugarmountaincondo]

Very cool episode because anything Gangster related; I think everyone is interested in stuff like that. The gun definitely looks bad ass and at a glance looking at the front grip and the muzzle, it could easily be confused for a Thompson SMG and scare people or Cops from the intimidation factor. I am sure it is loud as hell too when fired, so that adds even more intimidation.

[@robviousobviously5757]

the Zoot suit gang is an interesting bunch... fun to watch

[@rgriffinRETIRED_SHEEPDOG]

You can bet that the original Dillinger model was taken home by a retiring Chief and never seen again.

[@MrSabram07]

Dillinger had a full auto 1911? I didn't know you could make a 1911 full auto

[@TomXPorter]

Heck, when my high school physics teacher was a wet behind the ears lieutenant in the Navy, a Gunny Sergeant was leading training on the 1911 for him and others and my teacher’s pistol went BRRRR when he was asked to fire one round. The Gunny nearly had a coronary due to rage, stomped over and ‘gently’ asked my teacher what he was doing. My teacher melted into a confused, terrified puddle and handed the pistol to the Gunny who promptly had the same thing happen to him. Worn sear, I believe.

[@UnintelligibleYT]

A conversion by Hyman Lebman that turned a regular 1911 into a full-auto machine pistol chewing through 1000 rounds of .38 Super per minute. Because why fire at a target when you can dump a whole magazine in its vague direction

[@shawnr771]

On a 1911 reassembling the leaf spring as shown in the original manual caused the disconnector to not function. It will fail the functions test after reassembly. It will fire full auto but probably not reliably. And at some point without a sear manage to fire out of battery. In which case the shooter would be wearing it as the weapon would not be locked up in firing condition. Many an officer completely disassembled their 1911s and upon reassembly it would fail the functions test. This was still true in 1988 when I was a unit armorer.

[@Analisede_Tudo]

First assault rifle? (On the full auto conversion)

[@billm2078]

I wouldn't call the recoil on my 1907 bad. It is different in that it recoils back and then forward as the action closes.

[@markanderson1519]

After all this time we discover that the real crime was the NFA.

[@MrJonathandcrow]

35 Remington Was Popular

[@diogoduarte369]

Would this be considered a telescoping bolt before the Uzi?

[@Arkeo36]

Henry, I believe, will be the manufacturer of 2025. The lever action Supreme rifle is incredibly cool and viable for ownership and all-around use in all but the most nonpermissive states. If Henry released a semi-auto rifle which, like this Winchester 1907, has the silhouette of "not a scary assault weapon," but which can accept ar-15 and ar-10 magazines in various calibers (maybe even ak magazines eventually) they'll take the lead in another underserved segment of the market: rifles for people who don't want everything to be as tacticool as possible but want to use cheap, larger capacity magazines. This Winchester is very cool because it doesn't look like it's trying hard to be a GWOT door kicker rifle.

[@petesheppard1709]

Looking forward to the Saturday match--Ian competing as a gangster...

[@TylerSnyder305]

I would guess the grip is just there for hip shooting. A full auto conversion wouldn't surprise me, but I do doubt it.

[@terry7907]

“BARs were harder to get “. I thought you could order them from a Sears catalog?

[@charliebravo1906]

I have one of these. Has notches on the stock. .351 WSL. Can’t find ammo.

[@aaronkcmo]

Please help me understand how a firearm with such a simple action can be so difficult to disassemble/reassemble.

[@PaperworkNinja]

I always misread "Winchester Self-Loading" as "Winchester Self-Loathing"

[@dustinfrey3067]

Was this same action used in pump action rifles? It looks as if this operating system started its life as a pump action. I may be wrong, but the similarities are striking.

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

No , entirely different action.

[@hwagonium]

Now do Clyde Barrow's BAR.

[@martinroskres1297]

So Winchester 350 legend is resurrection of another impractical idea

[@simoncleret]

.351 is basically .300 BLK with a rim.

[@Insert-name-here00]

Just once I would like to see Ian introduce himself as Gun Jesus.

[@thompsonjerry3412]

Did the original use aluminum, exotic for 1934?

[@JohnSmith-pl2bk]

or zinc or magnesium?

[@cmpm7195]

it is indeed very cool Ian

[@57WillysCJ]

I can see not selling many of these compared to lever guns. "Some new fangled gun that won't last." People with the financial means would give them a try as if it didn't work they would replace it.

[@MirrorsMercury]

Goated in BF1

[@j_ferguson]

Everyones gangster until you hear the police scream "Affix bayonets!".

[@VegasCyclingFreak]

With the hand guard removed, it's apparent why that's an unpleasant gun to shoot.

[@Kharmazov]

My humble guess is that they were converted to a full auto otherwise there would be no much point in going with the whole hassle of mounting a compensator and machining/casting am entire front end just to mount a foregrip. Also the 1911 he converted for the Dillinger ganghad a an aftermarket stock mounted to one of the grips with screw.

[@35rem19]

The original Hipoint carbine!

[@Pablo-gp5mr]

thats remember me to the battelfield 1

[@slappydave4241]

I didn't realize there were full auto 1911s back then Resident Evil 8 Village gives you a 1911 that is only full auto and I thought that was crazy but I guess there is historical precedent haha

[@MrJerrycampbell]

The 1907 was an interesting rifle for it's time. Heavy, but a decent police (and gangster) carbine with 10 rounds on board. It was good personal defence gun and other available semiauto would come close until the M1 carbine became available to civilians. If you queried the Tucson PD, I am sure they would be receptive to a man of your fame reviewing said historical tools if they still have them. It could be free publicity for them and a nice excursion through history. Thanks. It satisfied the time travel mental meander bit of this old scifi buff. A Colt 1908, 1911 and Winchester 1907 with several 10 rounders would be my choices in the early half of the 20th Century.