Distillers hate talking about the gross reality of ANGEL'S SHARE

[@jw51369]

I work at a distillery and one of the jobs I have is giving tours, and I have learned SO MUCH about distilling and everything from watching you guys over the years. So thank you guys for making videos that are both informative and fun and helping me be a better tour guide by having prior knowledge I could go in to the job with!

[@duckcc73]

1) Schrödinger’s Whiskey absolutely needs to be on a shirt. 2) Was that an accurate reenactment of calls regarding empty barrels?😂 3) Funny that Brianna is huffing fungus and slurping barrels and somehow ended up getting sick this week 🤔.

[@paerebanan]

I’m actually strictly observing Schrödingers Diet (tm) at the moment.

[@blairhoughton7918]

@@paerebanan Everything counts as zero calories until you read the label?

[@jasonrhodes9726]

Selling the possibility of anything is fraud. If I bought an empty barrel and they gave me shit like that, it would be the last time I bought from them. If it happened to other companies, they would get a bad reputation in a small industry so that would be a death sentence for their business.

[@martinzurekofficial]

I love the "new" dynamic of Rex being the mentor and Briana being the student. I know it's been in a few viseos before but this feels like the perfect conclusion to last week.

[@HavocSmasher]

I work at one of the largest Distilleries in the country, and people are always asking me what causes the mold. My entire town is covered in it. this is going to make explaining it to people much easier. Instead of taking thirty minutes to explain it i can just point them to this vid. Awesome job guys👍

[@blairhoughton7918]

Better question: what kills the mold?

[@stagiestpizza]

@@blairhoughton7918 a gun is pretty inefficient, and the collateral can get really expensive. learned that the hard way.

[@SogoTX]

@@blairhoughton7918 Bleach does very well... I also use full strength Lysol Sanitizer/Cleaner... Maybe spraying down the outside surfaces of the Town's buildings with a diluted mixture of those would help kill prevent that mold growth. ;)

[@blairhoughton7918]

@@stagiestpizza trade the gun for a case of TSP. Your insurance will thank you.

[@blairhoughton7918]

@@SogoTX Now I'm remembering the commercials for house-washing detergent I used to see in Florida. I looked them up and they were full of benzalkonium chloride.

[@DaveEtchells]

I had no idea angels’ share was so aggressive that a 20 year old barrel could be half empty 😮 Great video too 👍

[@mitchumsport]

think of it like continuously compounding interest. at 3.85% loss over 18 years that's about 50% loss overall (or 100% gain if you're thinking about interest and principle.)

[@DaveEtchells]

@@mitchumsport Yeah - I just didn’t realize the annual rate would be anything like 4%; if I’d had to guess I would have said 1% or less 😮

[@Tupiaz]

4% is nothing (all though it is higher than Irish or Scotch whiskey which is around 2%). Rum from the Caribbean usually has an angel above 10%. Often rum is gathered from several barrels (same batch) into fewer barrels. This why rum which are tropical age in general is younger rarely older than 12-14 years. It is also why some rum is continental aged (aged in Europe) or is first tropical aged then continental aged.

[@portpipe99]

I was involved with finding out where in the cask the most angels share omits from. The poplar bung (rosewood) gives out 35% especially if its palletised and whisky touches it constantly. Your hoop position plays a big role in that too 14:35

[@sabrinawilhelm7964]

Alcohol might not get moldy, but it doesn't keep everything out if there is excess moisture. If you are making vanilla extract and the bean pods are not fully dried, you can end up with fuzzy pods (i.e. mildew) and extract that you can't use.

[@inventor1214]

Oh no! I am making vanilla extract, and the beans were still moist when I put them in the vodka last year...is fuzzy pods the only way to tell??

[@AngryAlfonse]

Briana going in to slurp what she thought was straight whiskey off the top of a barrel is... well, exactly what I would expect 😄

[@blissrunner]

If I get a chance to do it.... I would sip the barrel. (Sadly that would contaminate things)

[@JAF30]

I loved this video, great behind the scenes information. But not going to lie, 4:23 just had me nearly die of laughing.

[@lukeules]

I bet you guys were worried about the first episode of the new format but you nailed it 👌

[@jeffhallock7874]

Briana's acting is getting significantly better! And agree with previous comments that Schrodinger's Whiskey needs to be a shirt, or even a special release!

[@tank20820]

Love how the video starts off where last weeks ended.

[@toxicpiano8166]

YEP

[@isaintlikei4076]

An idea: an unnaturally sealed barrel to stop the angel share and see if it affects loss/taste.

[@douglasmagowan2709]

you could age your whiskey in stainless steel vats with wood chips for flavor and it would be cheaper than barrels. That distillers continue to use the less predictable wood barrels says something. There is something to how the fluctuations in the environment, particularly temperature cause the barrel to absorb or release the whiskey in cycles over time.

[@blairhoughton7918]

@@douglasmagowan2709 the ingress of air as the barrels breathe also affects flavor. So you can get one effect from staves in a sealed container, but if you want other effects you need to get air in there, and into the wood where it can react with the fluid and the wood at the same time. That's why the big metal cube had staves embedded in it. I think the smaller wood area also slows the process, so Texas aging could take as long as Scotland aging. Then you could put big age statements on bottles, which is pure image marketing...

[@insaneferret]

This isnt that hard, they plug leaks with wax, they could wax the whole barrel or spray coat it with varnish, plastic wrap or polyurethane, but aging flavor largely comes from the whiskey cycling in and out of the wood grain due to temperature and pressure fluctuations, which wont happen nearly as much if it's completely sealed.

[@atomicskull6405]

@@insaneferret Put some wood chips in a permeable sack inside the barrel like a big teabag. Or hell you might not even need a wooden barrel if you did that.

[@OldFashionedWays]

Fun and entertaining as always. Loved Brianna drinking that water off top before verifying it was safe. Great new format Cheers

[@Ebbyman413]

Fun fact: Angels and pigeons have a couple things in common, they both fly, and when fed, they poop on everything! That's right kids, that's not fungus, it's angel poop. Breath deep!

[@alexmohar54]

Its important to note that while there are many efforts to reduce angels share, there is a benefit. The woods ability to "breath" allows for oxidation in the whisky that both mellows and ads complexity of flavors. That is why adding a wood spiral to "age in-bottle" will never produce anything as complex and sweet as actual barrel aged. So in the end, you loose whiskey to evaporation, but what is left will be far superior than if you eliminated angels share all together.

[@ElijsDima]

So uh. What if you coat the whole barrel in beeswax while it's maturing? That should stop any moisture loss, right?

[@plektosgaming]

Hot summers, melty wax... it's been tried, but anything that does work well is also not food-safe/is toxic if it leeches into the barrel. This is why a lot of modern distillers are trying out wood chips from barrels (charred and all of that) in stainless steel as it solves most of the issues. Getting the right mix right, though.. it's a fairly new science to make it this way. Also.. this is WHY older whiskey costs more. Same barrel cost, less left after aging. In some cases, there might be a small quantity at the bottom left.

[@plektosgaming]

@@djscottdog1 If you look in this video, he did show a square stainless steel "barrel" with wood inserts in the sides, very briefly (Squarrel). They ARE trying new things and working on the last big hurdle, which is finding a way to use science to remove these archaic barrels from the equation. It might take a while, though. Most of this is driven by a wood shortage.

[@LeviO1992]

I work at a sawmill up in pa. Funny to see how much overlap can happen within different businesses.

[@LoreTunderin]

This makes me wonder if you had a pilot light rigged up on your HVAC, could it burn off the ethanol vapor and reduce the fungal growth?

[@blairhoughton7918]

If the concentration was high enough to create a flame front across the whole plenum, you couldn't ever let the fan turn off or it'd backfire through the whole rickhouse.

[@heroinmom153]

​@@blairhoughton7918 A catalytic reaction would be much safer

[@dimentoplexitronum4923]

The weird details of the chemistry and stuff with aging whiskey is what makes it so interesting to me

[@grahamokeefe9406]

I almost don't want it to get too scientific. I like the idea that it's sort of magic and alchemy

[@karl_alan]

As someone who works with wood: in the Texas summer, in addition to pressure within the barrel, the wood constricts in width, leading to more hairline gaps between the slats, and between the slats and the head. In winter, as it cools, the wood expands, swelling & sealing any leak points.

[@steveboyd3455]

Is that not backwards; it should shrink with cold and expand with heat.

[@karl_alan]

@@steveboyd3455 looking into it, this actually seems to vary by region, in some areas expanding in one season or the other depending on more factors than I was accounting for

[@steveboyd3455]

Interesting stuff for sure! Thanks@@karl_alan

[@polerin]

​@@steveboyd3455it isn't explicitly the temperature! It is is actually a byproduct of the humidity change over the seasons

[@steveboyd3455]

Gotcha. I would make a terrible cooper!@@polerin

[@philberco]

There is a difference between black fungus and black mold. The fungus is totally safe for humans but the mold is not. There was a couple times throughout the video they were used interchangeably but they are not the same thing.

[@matthewwright57]

The terms should be interchangeable, mold is fungus. Need to get specific about the type of fungus. If its Mucormycosis or Stachybotrys then its dangerous. If its Baudoinia compniacensis then its ok.

[@TGlooknohands]

@@matthewwright57 ​ The terms aren't actually interchangeable but mold (hyphae producing single cellular fungi) is a subset of the larger Fungi Kingdom which includes molds but also multicellular fungi like Mushrooms and other single celled fungi which "bud" to reproduce called "yeast" ;) Sources: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungus \\\ imold.us/difference-between-mold-and-fungus/#:~:text=The%20truth%20is%20that%20mold,belong%20to%20the%20kingdom%20Fungi.

[@TheSonnyGo]

All mold are fungi, but not all fungi are mold.

[@matthewwright57]

@@TheSonnyGo Yes but all black mold on a distillery are fungi, so them using fungus and mold interchangeably is fine.

[@TGlooknohands]

@@TheSonnyGo Exactly

[@davidhorizon8401]

If you kept the barrels in a temperature and humidity controlled environment, wouldn't it prevent the majority of loss? I would think the barrels going up and down in pressure would cause it to vent the ethanol much faster. Maybe buying a cave to keep them in would be good.

[@JKa244]

Thing is, those pressure changes is what pushes the product in and out of the wood, picking up flavor and color

[@jaspermooren5883]

Yeah this is one of the main reasons why certain geographic locations are more popular than others. The difference in temperature and pressure are essential for the aging process.

[@richardvoss77]

Could there be a metal container that is sealed and add wood chips of the wood flavor profile you want? Or would it degrade in the whiskey?

[@johnjamieson6368]

IAs a kid, we bought a bunch of whiskey barrels that we were going to make into furniture. They all had the bungs in them. I used two with a door on top, for a desk. My room smelled like bourbon, for months.

[@340wbymag]

Distillers have rules they must follow, but the rest of us have the option of checking our barrels from time to time, and topping off the barrels to keep them filled as they age. I have a five-gallon barrel that has been aging nearly five years now. It hasn't leaked more than a drop or two in that time, but the angels have been sipping on the barrel the whole time, and I have in that time probably added under two gallons of new distillate to keep the barrel full. A distillery could never get away with that (or could they) without noting it on their aging statements, but it sure works for me. My little barrel contains some of the finest whiskey I have ever tasted. Someday the barrel will reach the time where its aging qualities are used up but I have no idea when that will be. Until then, it will remain filled. I sure hope my room doesn't start growing that fungus!

[@blairhoughton7918]

They could. It's similar to the solera process. They could claim an age statement based on the youngest component, but they can always mention the oldest component in marketing copy.

[@Koby616]

Thanks for the informative video. It was fun watching it. ❤

[@nobodyimportant5417]

Could you dip or coat the outside of the barrels in wax or something after fill to stop the losses? It would make handling the barrels harder, but maybe saves the losses?

[@BillMcGirr]

In the Texas heat? Leave a crayon out in the elements for 4+ years and then revisit this hypothesis.👍🥃

[@nobodyimportant5417]

@@BillMcGirr Tons of high-temp waxes out there. Higher temp would probably be better, less chance of anything outgassing and changing flavors. Hell, dip the whole thing in latex or Teflon.

[@BillMcGirr]

@@nobodyimportant5417 There’s an old saying that barrels make a great vessel for aging and flavor… And an extremely poor vessel for storage. Ultimately the same contraction and expansion that causes product loss… Is what causes most of the flavor profile over time. I’m more curious whether the stainless cube with the wood in it is a viable solution. In the end barrels are an antiquated storage device. Unfortunately NOBODY has come up with a viable cost effective solution. I’m sure at some point someone will.😊👍🥃

[@BigBenC1991]

​@@BillMcGirrYeah, those squarrels look very cool. Especially if the wood in the sides is replaceable.

[@moncorp1]

Revenuers used to catch moonshiners and bootleggers because of that fungus back in prohibition. It was a telltale sign of a distillery.

[@davidfurr6004]

Love this, the technical stuff is just as interesting as the tastings to me.

[@Project1542]

So question, what happens when you seal the barrels with like an epoxy resin? Does it change the taste? I would assume that you would apply it to the barrel before had so all the chemicals had room to evaporate before adding whisky to the barrel. If you ever test this let me know... Highly interested. Literally there could be many other ways to seal the wood that might be one. What happens when you eliminate the angel share by sealing the wod with "fill in the blank" .

[@r0cketplumber]

I'd favor beeswax over epoxy's chemical sh*tstorm, in aerospace there's a saying that there are two kinds of composites workers, those that are allergic to epoxy and those that will be.

[@Project1542]

I love it @@r0cketplumber

[@JohnSmith-lp7px]

I went to the Makers Marks distillery and they actually painted their buildings black so the mold wasn’t noticeable

[@BigStupidFingers]

I bet you it was painted black to increase temperature swings.

[@DRUKENHOBO]

if you put a hose running from the barel to a container of water you could collect ethanol as it evaporates from the whisky. or put a balloon over a small hole and let the ethanol collect, it would allow for temp changes without a pressure change.

[@SirLoinOfHamalot]

Definitely not by Kilian but still much appreciated. Accidental video find, well worth the watch. Learning so much from this channel.

[@Brodysseus]

Love when something like those Original Grain watches look so nice! Unfortunately, I hate when they know they look nice and I can't afford them.

[@blairhoughton7918]

You're better off. I mean, if you're willing to pay all of that money just for the association with the channel and the origin story of the wood, nobody can stop you. But just as a watch the quality is really low and it's not worth a fraction of the price.

[@brokentillman4346]

Greetings MB's. Rex, you may remember, i asked you guys about this back in March when Jack Daniel's had a problem with the local community, because the stuff was everywhere. Are ya'll close enough to the subdivision where the "water guy" lived for this to become another issue for anyone to jump on? Also, since you're not making multiple appearances a week in the "Vault" anymore. Gonna need you to at least drop some "Tribe" shorts during the week to fill the gaps. Once a week is not enough. Come on Tribe, comment if you agree 👍. Respect-Love-Support

[@seanklaassen9946]

Did you ever do a test/trial what happends if you seal a barrel all round in Wax or a plastic bag so no vapor can leave the barrel? and how that changes the liquid inside at the end (easy test with a small barrel?)

[@brucehearn2621]

Nice. I was watching Steve Lehto’s latest video and saw he was wearing a Crowded Barrel Whisky Co. t-shirt

[@CybrSlydr]

So how is it that whiskey sourcers are allowed to fuck you around like that with not giving you the product you paid for? How is that not their problem? Also - why not just put a lacquer on the barrel to prevent any sort of escape? Does that affect the taste?

[@grahamokeefe9406]

I would imagine that it's all about the contract that you sign. There's probably an acknowledgement by the distiller that the barrell was filled and sealed, hasn't been opened, and that evaporation is inevitable. Sort of an "inherent vice" like provision.

[@TheJdm2203]

Rex... you're doing a GREAT job picking up the full mantle... and Bree is learning the "Mooch" role...

[@richtull2110]

She has been under the tutelage of the greatest mooch so it was bound to rub off on her 🤣🤣🤣

[@charlespaine987]

Is there any reason they couldn’t seal the storage building and “condense “ vapors and recover the vapors as a separate product.

[@randallstovall5728]

Could you seal it with wax and prevent the Angel's cut from evaporating?

[@mikeb5063]

Would it be possible to seal a barrel more with wax to lower the evaporation loss?

[@zander7513]

You should call it "Angels Rot"! Sounds catchy, and to be honest I already forget the scientific name so... PS, Happy birthday Rex!

[@programmerdave9893]

I wonder what would happen if someone aged spirits in non-porous containers (but with barrel staves for flavor). Would it age as expected but with more final product? Would it never develop complex flavors?

[@jonwaggle]

A whisk(e)y video with a Schrodinger's cat reference? Awesome.

[@potterportraits]

question maybe i'm crazy. why not coat the outside of the barrell in a wax or something would that help at all in keeping the vapor in?

[@linusstick]

Man I’m so glad to see him again!

[@taylor315]

Awesome sponsor! I’m getting married next year so I’m definitely checking out those rings 👌🏼

[@unclemikiesworld]

sounds like some experimenting is in order barrel inside a plastic bag barrel inside a larger plastic barrel a wax dipped barrel (kinda put that in just to see you try to pull that off) what would a dehumidifier in the barrel house collect?

[@MParker8200]

Why don’t you seal the barrel with wax to prevent this?

[@nick263]

I live within 3 minutes of both Barton and Heaven Hill. Can’t escape it

[@stillwaterspirits1387]

Awesome episode! Big Boys with Empty barrels -great skit.

[@sanmar6292]

If returning an unopened barrel is not a problem, you might want to put it on a scale, before opening it. 😅

[@Turkeysammich3000]

Would an insulated room help? Maybe add some sort of gasses to said room, then measure the pressure and depressurize the room when needed.

[@ManateeOnRye]

The last time I was in the room where we first saw Rex that's where they had bottles for comparisons. Fun times.

[@wfjhDUI]

I feel like there's something else I must not understand. Inexpensive airtight containers are a solved problem. If distillers wanted to completely prevent evaporation of aging whiskey then they easily could. Is there some reason that a certain amount of angels' share is desirable? Is it just for the pageantry of using traditional barrels?

[@vjm3]

Question: Why not make non-porous barrels, but put the necessary wood as an inner layer of some sort? That way, it still gets that woody flavor, but doesn't lose product due to angel's share?

[@kevin_ninja_jones2363]

Can you coat the barrels in a beez wax would that slow down the amount of product lost out of the barrel? I know nothing about barrels I was just curious

[@frobro2250]

Banana is a whole vibe and here for it !!😃

[@earthman7678]

Could you potentially just make big metal kegs that you could place the barrels in while ageing. Then pressurize the keg however you need to prevent the barrel leakage. Maybe even fill the keg with a different type of gas then air to prevent the mold. Then you could just reuse the kegs when done.

[@DerrillGuilbert]

Could you put the whiskey barrel inside an impermeable barrel?

[@CrustyOldDave]

Rex you can't leave either........ I am suffering from separation anxiety. I love you all.

[@madog1]

Completely seal the outside pores of the wood on the barrel, install a ceck vale for breathing. You're welcome.

[@Alex-zi1nb]

this makes me wonder if you could just su vied barrels hot to cold and do the aging process with keeping the angels share. or even just keep the alch in a solid pressure vessle with oak chips inside and draw and pump vvacuum with temp chan=ge

[@davidleamy7564]

despite what I would assume to be a prohibitive cost, but could you wax dip the entire barrel?

[@mustavertwang]

I thank you.Brilliant!

[@dacr8928]

kyle - "ahhhh noo, no no no no nahhhhhh, AHHH NARGHHHHHH." Idky but that had me rolling laughing.

[@PeterPetersNL]

The first time was driving a car into Scotland I probably got influenced by that angel's share and rear-ended another car. The time first in my life.

[@grahamokeefe9406]

I love the idea that there's so much angel's share floating over Scotland that everybody is walking around with a buzz all the time.

[@paladonis]

Oh no! Brianna got the Whiskey Lung! As always a fun and informative video.

[@ghostchants]

One of your best vids yet.

[@felderup]

so... collect it with chiller coils and put it back in the barrels?

[@morrius0757]

Could you perhaps mitigate Angel share by coating the barrels in something? Wax maybe?

[@moopert86]

Imagine a world where angel's share didn't exist and 20+ year old whiskey weren't exponentially more expensive because of it.

[@jameshogan1871]

Could you paint a barrel with wax to seal it and prevent angel's share?

[@DoctorPhilGud]

Banana: "Ohhh its faarting! *sniff sniff* oh it smells good~" Cmon bribraba lol

[@pennyandrews3292]

I definitely get, given the nature of the industry, how they might expect people to be fine with getting a bit less whiskey than the amount the barrel they paid for can hold... but I think actually selling someone an empty barrel is probably crossing a line. They shouldn't be allowed to sell it as a barrel of whiskey if it doesn't contain at least some whiskey (like maybe a quarter of the way full), because if it's just an empty barrel, then what they've sold you is basically just overpriced firewood that slightly stinks of alcohol... if all of them do that, I'm surprised no one has lobbied for some consumer protection laws there. Though really, I would think you wouldn't have to open it, and you could tell by the weight (probably even just by holding it, someone could tell if one is lighter than the other). If a barrel is empty, they know that when they sell it, and if they say they didn't, I kinda think they are lying through their teeth because they don't want to take a loss.

[@michaelhooper9576]

Try wet and forget, it is available at home centers.

[@Ryarios]

The black mold is actually the Devil trying to steal the angel’s share. He’s not satisfied with the devil’s cut…

[@CrustyOldDave]

Brianna...... please don't leave .....at least anytime soon. I don't think I could take it.

[@chumleyk]

Lol Black mold is one of the most dangerous molds for humans to be around.

[@canadianwhiskysmith6453]

Now we need an episode on the Devil's Cut.

[@Lostenoch]

Fun and informational you got my 👍

[@AllanWorks]

you should do an experiment with coating the barrel in food-safe resin epoxy or wax and see how much angel share happens by weighing it over a couple years.

[@richtull2110]

the point of having the whiskey in the barrel is the reaction with the wood so coating the wood would defeat the purpose of using the barrel I think

[@AllanWorks]

​@richtull2110 the outside of the barrel, not the inside.

[@BrokensoulRider]

The resin still sinks iinto the wood and penetrates it, causing that seal, so still would defeat the purpose. @@AllanWorks

[@SomethingAbstract]

roll the barrels in a massive tub/trough of bees wax to seal the outside of the barrel :)

[@greencraftingandrecyclings2222]

What type of alcohol is angels share is it drinkable alcohol or is it the ethanol?

[@greencraftingandrecyclings2222]

Ah so its ethanol and leaks makes sense. Can the barrel not be fitted with an airlock like wine makers use to let the ethanol out but also help release the pressure when it builds up?

[@KillCoMentalMusings]

Well this didn't help my mild mysophobia. But as long as the inside of the barrel house is safe and smells amazing... I'm in. 🖖😎🥃

[@Alex-zi1nb]

my brain is completely blown knowning that rex's dad is the original wizard and far from being a nepo baby rex is an insane wizard himself. i just assumed daniel was the boss bc his short bald energy. but dammit now i like rex even more

[@subn0rma1]

What would happen if you dunked the entire barrel in wax to fully seal it? You could melt the wax off later to reuse it.

[@erikk7284]

Finger Lakes Distilling (makes Mckenzie bourbon, rye, and single malts) use the fuzzy stuff from cat tails to patch their leaks.

[@erikk7284]

Should probably mention it's from the plant found in wetlands that look like a corn dog. Not from actual cats haha

[@Photonkannon]

Couldn't you put the barrels of whiskey into another air tight container to stop it evaporating?

[@rustypappas8554]

Can I get a baggie of pressurized barrel air please?

[@011humphrey]

I like this science stuff👍🥃

[@itsjackbandit]

2:17 "oh my god, it's farting. it smells good."

[@blairhoughton7918]

I feel like someone who'd sell a half-empty barrel as "a barrel" should be put on blast. By name.

[@plektosgaming]

This is why longer aged whiskey (within reason) is more expensive. You might end up with a 10 year barrel that's only half full.

[@blairhoughton7918]

@@plektosgaming it's one of many reasons, the biggest being you have to use space and attention on it for a decade. But that's cost. Pricewise it's more expensive because people expect more good flavor and less bad flavor, from the wood or the concentration. But of course it can go the other way in a warm climate as it stews...

[@JasperGom]

'Black Fungus Halo' is my new band name 🤘🤘🤘

[@BerzerkaDurk]

I assume the fungus doesn't actually come from the whiskey or the barrels. It looks like it just thrives where warm, moist, likely high-CO2 air accumulates. Not surprising when you think about it.

[@APack0fWolves95]

Last week's video: Daniel is leaving the channel Opening of very next video: Rex is tearing down a wall with an axe

[@joartdz230]

Great episode I never thought a barel could fart such wonders!!!

[@Ravenblues]

Isn't is possible to seal the outside of the barrels with epoxy? Why hasn't anyone tried it?