DnD Players Want To Join "SEXY" BBEG | r/rpghorrorstories

[@marybdrake1472]

I've got to give the DM in the second story props, that nuanced. Very nuanced indeed. Also, the party needs to grow up. Saying the Bad guy can't be the bad guy because they are attractive is really childish. "Evil wears a pretty face" is a very common trope for a lot of reason.

[@Yojimbo16]

Wasn't Lucifer once known as the most beautiful of all Angels before his fall from grace?

[@Isaygoodday5]

Here's the thing though, because he made it so nuanced, the party should be able to join her and not consider her the villain if that's how they feel

[@marybdrake1472]

@@Isaygoodday5 Agreed.

[@marybdrake1472]

@@Yojimbo16 I think that was part of Lucifer's story, yeah. I'm not recalling the details that well as it has been a while.

[@ArcCaravan]

​@@Isaygoodday5Could take it a step further and have the king be the nuanced villain for opposing the murder of his family.

[@petinonclement7872]

For the Nuanced BBEG, a possible wrighting flaw that we can't see with the short version of the story : If no more key detail are given that a "word against word" situation, so who's easyest to belive/follow the quest-giver meet just to start campagne or the recurent character that player learn to like.

[@barriehannon6857]

its gotten to the point where "paid game" is now a red flag for me

[@SquirrelGamez]

It always was for me. The very concept of paying a guy to play a game with me is horrible. The way I see it, if a DM thinks they deserve pay, then as a player and DM of almost 30 years experience, I feel that DM should pay to have me play with them

[@kiearawagner7901]

Just to put that into context, 80 dollars a month across four players for an entire year would be close to 4000 dollars for the GM. Rounded up. (I picked four since that seems to be the average table size for most groups and is generally what most D&D/Pathfinder AP's are built around.)

[@fred_derf]

DM: "But, but, but... why won't you pick up the obviously cursed items that will kill your characters? You're ruining my fun by not allowing me to ruin your fun!"

[@rynowatcher]

@@fred_derf to be fair, none of the curses actually killed players. The first one forced a player to go agro; they only tried putting them to sleep or killing them in the story. The second one petrified a character, but not sure how much they tried to cure the PC before giving them up for dead. The third one that summoned the weak skeleton to try to kill the user is kind of funny. The fourth one fused one's hands to an ax, so they physically cannot be disarmed. That seems more survivable to me.

[@starofjustice1]

@@rynowatcher They're all bad things, and if all the items they picked up did something bad, those bad things would add up. Especially ones that resulted in a PC's death, like 2/3 did. And if the players thought this was a serious campaign, and not one about humorous masochism, shame on that DM. >>The first one forced a player to go agro; they only tried putting them to sleep or killing them in the story.

[@rynowatcher]

@@starofjustice1 they tried to paralyze and put him to sleep, yes. They never said they tried to disarm, grapple, tie them up with rope, run away, use illusions, attack the cursed item, or knock them to 0 hp and tie them up when downed and heal them. If it were me, I feel like there were options left; this is a ttrpg, not a video game, so out of the box solutions are generally on the table. The easiest solution was killing the PC, so that is what they chose to do. A group that ran away might have had a different result that was not lethal. The death of the PC was more based on the player' choice than the gm's item.

[@starofjustice1]

@@rynowatcher You're still focusing on that one example and not the bigger problem, though, dude: every single piece of loot did something bad. What's the point, even if there had been some surprise solution that didn't involve killing a party member? Even if there had been a non-lethal solution to that situation, who the heck would keep picking up loot if something like that happened every single time? What do you get out of it, besides having to burn healing items or worse, roll up new characters constantly? You pick up loot hoping to get a reward; if every single piece of loot's a punishment, you have no reason whatsoever to keep interacting with them. Unless maybe you're playing some kind of weird Deadpool-type campaign, but it seems like only the DM might've thought that about it. The players recognized a pattern and stopped engaging with an aspect of the game that only got bad results. And eventually the DM cancelled the campaign and called them spoilsports for not knowingly doing things that would screw them over for no reward. Sorry, but I only see one person to blame.

[@rynowatcher]

@@starofjustice1 that is the thing; I do not see anyone to blame. It is like getting mad at the dm for putting monsters in every dungeon room; because who goes into a dungeon if you monsters are in it? This is an adventure game, and some people like solving problems. It is not for everyone, but this seems more of a game style thing more so than a malicious intent. The game sounds like a dcc or osr module; really any game with a random mutation table. Some people like that.

[@davidtherwhanger6795]

Cursed Items Story. Cursed items should have a reason. No one is going around wasting their time, effort, and resources creating countless cursed items just to screw with people. The curse should be something the creator would have considered a design feature. Like a purse that screamed "THIEF!" constantly if anyone other than the owner had it. That way it wouldn't matter to the owner how well the thief succeeded on their roll to snatch it, the owner would know it in a second when they heard the scream from the purse. Finding this purse in a dungeon or lair though and picking it up to search for coins would cause the purse to scream. Possibly alerting any monsters or guards nearby.

[@fred_derf]

You can also make cursed items that are keyed to specific species (or alignments). It's very rational for a Drow to make a sword that curses any non-Drow who tries to use it (for example). Also, simple -1, or -2 weapons are simply badly made magic weapons and are sold to gullible people because they are magic.

[@indumatipngtuber2790]

Just have the BBEG clearly be a dark eldritch ugly god with tentacles and shit that pretends to be a pretty lady by shapeshifting with a hint of psychic influence. That way, the party is clearly being affected by eldritch madness and will get eaten. That would be funni.

[@ThePlayplay64]

This would be funny, have them get closer to her and have her show them her true form. then rub it in their faces when they flip flop.

[@Blindy_Sama]

I feel you Doge. The last week or so it's been hell for me too. My condolences. Give the kitties all the love you can. Two of them escaped haven't been able to be recaptured and one of the remaining two might have to cross the rainbow bridge soon. Much love stay strong.

[@AzureKyle]

Last story reminds me of my own first DnD game. I initially wanted to play a caster class, but the DM (who was someone I worked with and the one who introduced me to the game) said a caster would be too complicated for me, so he suggested ai pick Fighter, since I could then go Eldritch Knight. So I made an Elven Fighter. DM had us all start as level 1 Commoners, each with our own place in the starting city, my character owning a Library in the city. Suddenly alarms are going off because a goblin army was attacking. We all rushed out, met up, and were confronted by a group of goblins. We pick up makeshift weapons and roll initiative. I go first, so like the Fighter I intended to become, I rushed forward to attack, and missed. Then the goblins went and ganged up on me, taking me down. However, before I could even roll a single death save, the DM rolled a percentile to see if the goblins would perform a coup de gras, and described how the goblin cut off my head and stuck it on a pike. First round of the first combat of my first DnD game, and my character was killed. I ended up playing 4 more character, all but the last dying, during that campaign until I ended up leaving due to a misunderstanding with the host's fiancee.

[@terrymoose7273]

Feels bad man. If you are a new player the DM should have a talk with you about the setting being extremely brutal and your character is probably going to die at some point so don't be to attached to them. You should have extra character sheets ready just incase your character does die and don't take it personally that just how this world works.

[@AzureKyle]

@@terrymoose7273 Yeah, he basically ran a meatgrinder, but didn't say so beforehand. And there were times I'd spend literal hours not playing because I had to create a new character. And I know it wasn't targeting me, because another player also lost a character or two. But, I've found better groups and had much better games since then.

[@LoneTiger]

Never kill characters on their first game!!! And if you happen to kill one such character, make it reviving him fun or comical. I learned this lesson from my former DM on my first DM session, the reviving part was comedy gold and the players left happy.

[@siluda9255]

why not kill characters on first game ?:

[@LoneTiger]

@@siluda9255 Frustration is the best way to kill interest and enjoyment, specially in a game where you have to imagine the world.

[@rynowatcher]

Because of the fact the game took place 2 marriages ago for op, I am guessing that was a bx or ad&d game; those were the "rocks fall: everyone dies" editions. That was how people played back in the day as the norm as even a few of the starting adventures had tpk's that were likely. You got more detached as death was fairly likely for the first 3 levels or so; that is why theives leveled up faster than other classes. It is not a popular style of play now, comparatively, but still very much alive. Dcc and MCC still use "death funnels" to start a campaign to normalize the death of a character. It is fun, but it is not a character driven campaign; different style that is not for everyone.

[@siluda9255]

@@LoneTiger nah i think people cry too much over character death these days

[@SquirrelGamez]

I had my character killed on my first game. Didn't care, was fun. Was with friends, though. Never do it to a stranger.

[@Nyx685]

I've heard the cursed items story a few times before Man, DM sounds annoying as hell

[@ArcCaravan]

And very petty if not cursing the players means the rest of the game is pointless.

[@rynowatcher]

I found the weak skeleton that attacks you kind of funny. It just seems like a fun house dungeon with a weird theme. Seems fun as a change of pace in the middle of a campaign.

[@ArcCaravan]

@@rynowatcher Would be fine if it wasn't run into the ground.

[@Spellweaver5]

I don't think the party wanting to join the villain is a bad thing at all. I don't understand why it would be a horror story. If the villain's motivation is so believable that the players find it compelling too - why not embrace it? Why not let them make that choice? It would be a great game. Hell, even if someone would join her because she's hot - it's still fine. I don't understand this tendency with many writers: first you write a nuanced villain and then insist that there's exactly one way to interpret that character. The whole point of nuance is the possibility of different interpretations.

[@ArcCaravan]

Looked like it was less about the players wanting to join the villain and more them raging about DM considering her the BBEG which was partially motivated by them finding her hot. Though I agree the players being able to join her. If she's too nuanced to be a villain, could make the king nuanced enough to not be generic evil but not enough to charm players. Granted it may require extra time to accommodate changes.

[@Spellweaver5]

@@ArcCaravan I don't actually understand what it even matters if the DM considers her a BBEG. It doesn't sound like something the players would care for. Unless, of course, that comes with inability for the players to take her side, at which they would be completely justified to get upset.

[@ArcCaravan]

@@Spellweaver5 That's how the story read. After the DM revealed she was intended to be the BBEG, they raged at him because she "couldn't" be the nuanced villain they asked for because they like her.

[@Spellweaver5]

@@ArcCaravan yes, but I'm calling it into question, because it doesn't make any sense for the players to care about just the fact that she's a BBEG. But it makes a lot of sense if her being a BBEG meant the DM had specific expectations for the group.

[@ArcCaravan]

@@Spellweaver5 They care about her being the BBEG because the main request from the players for this campaign was a more nuanced BBEG compared to the usual generic evil villains. They then whined to the DM that this wasn't satisfying that request because they find her attractive and think she's too good to be a villain. They asked for nuance then complained about the nuance.

[@Zedja]

The Cursed Items DM shouldn't be a DM in the first place, because he has a Player vs DM mentality where everything is a gotcha moment. The first item only had one solution as well. Permanent death since early parties don't have easy access to resurrection.

[@rynowatcher]

Meh, "should not be a dm" implies there is one right way to play. It might not be to your tastes, but the rest of the group really liked it to the point that they went out of their way to ask him to come back. Some people like the meat grinder dungeons; they are still kind of the default Convension Module. No one really did anything wrong here and they still like each other. It is just one dude liking really intense and tactical combat and another preferring role play. They do not get along in the same game, but they are not "wrong" for their fun.

[@DragonClapper1855]

^ Seems like we found the DM from that story.

[@rynowatcher]

@@DragonClapper1855 I actually do not think most if the stories here were horror stories. I think I commented to that effect on the main thread. This was a "slow news day" for the doge. I do not remember this situation, but I do have a con game I run with mostly cursed items that I have heard positive feedback about, so I guess I am defending that a fun house dungeon where the cursed items are the central draw of the adventure can be fun. I am pretty sure I am not this dm, but sometimes the op changes details about the story so their friend does not get upset at them for bad mouthing them online; so maybe?

[@DragonClapper1855]

@rynowatcher Well, that's your opinion on the story and your personal experience with that kind of game. Some- keyword being "some", may like having to roll up new characters and burn through old characters for every little mistake, but the majority- especially when listening to a lot of stories on this and other channels, don't. Good on you for having fun though.

[@Zedja]

@@rynowatcher Your comment would hold more water if the guy didn't immediately quit as soon as he could no longer do any of those gotcha moments. It seems he didn't have any imagination beyond that. He continued playing with them, but not as a DM and he still couldn't leave the curse thing alone. Doing things to players where the only solution is killing off their character is bad DM'ing. Period.

[@InhumanResourcesDept]

I bumped into the same scammer, I think. Same exact pitch. Same weird rules. Same $80 ambush. Same weird discord server setup. If it is the same guy, then the OP really did dodge a bullet. The mod tried to pitch this as the next big thing I'd be getting in the ground floor of. Perhaps this would even take off because of it's unique hook (it's all done in first person, like the OP said) and we'd be the next critical role. I DO want to play DnD for living, right? Plus there would be two free character pictures because he had a guy who did those. Didn't mention a price until after all of that. Now, I'm all for paying folks for their hard work, but I also like to know what I'm paying for, so I asked. Could I see how the game is played to see if the group and story are for me? No. Could I pay after my first game? No. Could I chat with the other players to see how they like it? No. If you've already had great success with getting this sold as live-play product on another server, why on earth did you need a second one? No answer. It was all sold as very elite, very hush-hush, and they wanted 80 bucks up front. When it looked like I wouldn't bite, he got aggressive and pushy, so I left the call. At the time I thought the core problem was that this was the hyper-controlling type of GM running a self-aggrandizing sort of game. In retrospect, the guy had probably set up a ChatGPT dungeon master and the reason he limited how the players could communicate to first person was to help keep the illusion running as long as possible.

[@katelynslounge9736]

Yeah beside the shady stuff around this I think 20bucks a week is relatively fair price for a game that requires a shit load of work from the gamemaster/gamemistress I like to think of it as a similar concept to going to the cinema or theater but a session of ttrpgs usually lasts more than 2 hours so it's more fun for similar price as a ticket for a show that's lasts about 80-120min. So jeah when you know what you pay for 20 bucks is absolutely fair.

[@starofjustice1]

@@katelynslounge9736 I don't know what cinema you're going to where tickets cost $20 a head. They're only that high after you buy your overpriced popcorn and drink where I go.

[@fred_derf]

Rule 1 for joining a paid game: Session zero and your first session are free.

[@davidtherwhanger6795]

Wear Gloves Story. That was an A-hole move right there. Not to mention that a contact poison on an exterior surface in a windy (as many mountains are) environment would not last very long.

[@shadenox8164]

Yeah, I couldn't help audibly saying "lame" as soon as that was revealed. I'd probably do that at the table too.

[@alarkhar]

About the last story... saving throws against poison existed since D&D1e. The DM just wanted to prove he was top dog.

[@rynowatcher]

@@alarkhar I kind of read this as the op having an unrelated beef with the dm (their spouse) that they are looking back on poorly. There might have been a save versus poison, and it might have been poison that did a number of dice of some kind of damage so he could have survived. The details kind of get lost and any slight tends to get worse over time when you carry a grudge this long. By the same token, people that get divorced often forget the good and are too in their feeling to recognize the other person might have been acting rationally. Divorces are messy, and you tend to read into unrelated details when sufficiently motivated to hate someone.

[@dead_vibes]

​@@rynowatchereven in DND as the DM there should've been a save. Dont really care about the real life stuff.

[@rynowatcher]

@@dead_vibes I am saying there might have been, but that memory was over written to make room for more reasons to hate the dm while he spent several years simping for the dm's wife. I do not think he is lying, but if you ask someone to describe someone they hate and they tend to remember things differently than a neutral observer.

[@justinmargerum2559]

Intro: No apologies required Doge; take time off as needed. DnD Scammer: That was a LOT of "bait-and-switch." An ad for a Pathfinder game in a UK time zone that's actually a D&D 5e game based in California and it's PAID? Nope! Good on OP for seeing through that nonsense. Nuanced Villain: Keep moral complexity to a minimum. Players like this are why the game was originally built with "all monsters are bad" as its premise. Cursed Items: Not sure why some DMs are so giddy about overusing cursed items or betrayal. Being a DM is an exercise in trust, and it never pays to burn that trust all at once. Wear Gloves: Well, that escalated quickly...

[@wakaitsu]

In any D&D game, death should always be the absolute LAST option, when everything else won't do. And that is regarding both players and DMs. You only kill characters when there are no other options left. If death is the first option you jump on at the first chance available - don't play D&D

[@hyphz]

12:33 very common red flag here. They mention this was "in 4th edition" and that they "had to roll a Will saving throw." There was no such thing as a will saving throw in 4th Edition. Characters had a Will AC which the GM rolled attacks against, and "saving rolls" were flat checks to determine the length of an effect.

[@syphonfillter]

I have experienced the 2nd one before hahaha. It’s actually kinda scary how easy villains can convince some players to stand down with just a friendly demeanour, sympathetic backstory and a “for the greater good” motivation. It actually became a little meme in one my groups for a little while that we couldn’t let the villain speak because otherwise some of us would hear their sympathetic tragic backstory and not want to fight them anymore

[@japan100100]

What's wrong with siding with the Bad guy? Nuance implies that you can admit both good and bad qualities of someone. Sometimes those qualities can convince people to join their cause. The DM should've planned for the chance of the bad guy actually convincing the team to join her side if nuance was on the table.

[@scorch2155]

The issue wasn't just wanting to side with the bad guy, it was the reason theu wanted to. In thet theu refused to acknowledge her as the bad guy despite multiple atrocities because she had a good reason and was hot. The players got mad they got exactly what they wanted and were upset by it.

[@totallynote4990]

Hey man. I understand what you’re going through after watching a bunch of your videos because my family also went through something similar recently. Just here to let you know that you’re not along and to enjoy some more horror ttrpg

[@gearsofdawn]

Haven't encountered many cursed items besides a sword that once picked up can't be released unless remove curse is used. We encountered something else that wouldn't let go, but it was a mimic. The wizard touched the "gold statue" and got stuck to it, then the sorcerer assumed it was another cursed item and tried to use: remove curse, touching it as well. The way the DM had described the statue and the room I had automatically assumed it was a mimic and has started to ask to roll a check to see if it was, but the wizard is super greedy.

[@brianvance1178]

One or two cursed items in a campaign could be fun, but every magic item also being horrifically cursed is bs

[@kirua258]

I actually remember a case where I was DMing, tried to make a vilain more nuanced, like the second story did, but not the same way. My antagonist was some Kind of a Lelouch, double identity and the protagonists were pretty close of my NPCnotaBBEGIswear. And when the inevitable plot twist happened.... They decided to join him. Like, plain and simple. I told them that it would make the story drastically different, they said they still wanted to. After this, I had to pause for a month. I Had to make the things different. But.... That was actually a really cool moment, for me. I didn't even imagined that the players would have wanted to join the BBEG. It can be frustrating since you'd be proud of what you created before but for me, DnD is also this : Letting the players surprise you with their decisions. The story didn't took too long to stop, 4 or 5 more games, but they told me they really liked being allied with the BBEG for once. And since that day, I make actually 2 BBEG for each of my stories, one which is the classic BBEG and another if the players consider my First BBEG moral/justified enough to help him.

[@Nintendoggy]

I love that Cursed Items story. It's a classic!

[@AshBlossomWorshiper]

I mean hey, they got their nuanced bbeg in the king, i suppose😂

[@Iwannarox]

Me, a player who has paid $15-$20 per session for games before on startplayinggames 😅

[@brandonturner4113]

Oof

[@bellarose4816]

Same. I am in 4 games of $80 per month price

[@macanerodeldesierto]

People always fail to give good enough attributes to the cursed items to be considered useful. One of the best power ups ever is a cursed item (the berserker armor from Berserk )

[@theflyingace611]

Cursed Item Story. This is a good example of a Pavlovian response. If you give your players nothing but horribly cursed items, and literally nothing else, they're not gonna take any of the items at all, even if they weren't cursed (which they were as the Dm themself admitted). I think cursed items can work for a story, like one that forces a character flaw or something. But if every item is cursed, you better have some evil lich wandering around making cursed items for the fuck of it.

[@CrashGordon94]

I could've sworn you covered that cursed items story before, maybe I'm mistaken.

[@nysaea]

stay strong, mighty doge!

[@TKDB13]

That last one is crazy by today's standards, but given it's mentioned to be in the days of AD&D, that sounds about right for that era.

[@terrymoose7273]

Cursed Items are great if they have an effect that take several sessions to take effect/multiple saving throws to work allowing your character to roleplay can be fun. Turning you instantly into stone the moment you fail the first saving throw is such an efffing joke.

[@DuskyPredator]

Cursed items are like ninjas. A single one can be effective and strong, but if you had nothing but ninjas, they become uncool and weak. If a DM really had problems picking and choosing which of their itens are cursed, I would otherwise advise them to put it to chance, where a dice roll might figure if something is perfectly fine, cursed, to maybe only slightly cursed that that it could still be usable.

[@evanbrown4820]

If you're going to bring *substances* to a D&D campaign, always offer some to your DM, it's just polite lmfao

[@DavethePrinny]

As the old saying goes: "If evil, why hot?"

[@SquirrelGamez]

That last story reminds me of solo adventure books...

[@mark9960]

Man, the cursed items thing does annoy me. Why not make the curses' side grades. Like a yes, this axe makes you immune to all status ailments, but you can no longer receive any buffs. Or this ring turns you into stone, but you take half damage from bladed weapons.

[@jampine8268]

Because it's obvious in this case, the DM just wants to say "Gotcha!", but with no effort. A good twist can elevate a story, but it looses all effects if the players are only given one choice and then it's revealed to stab them in the back, or every item they encounter is cursed. Also it becomes a bit obvious when EVERYTHING is a twist, because you know it's just the DM trying to screw over the players. Also in this case, the severity is also a factor, a lot of them where just straight up death from the second you touched them.

[@HelaFuntastic]

My condolences for your family struggle.

[@MortusVanDerHell]

The thing with the Mistress of the Light is really... oh, my God. Some players should start thinking about political structures and not think with what's in their trousers. -.- What are the aristocrats in a kingdom? What role do they have ? A little digression: The king is the regent. He rules the aristocrats, who in turn receive his orders and then carry them out in the form of their own orders to the people. They are the infrastructure of the kingdom and the middle management. So when the BBEG started killing the aristocrats, she effectively disempowered the king and can now - since she is obviously much more powerful than him in terms of combat power - simply kill him and say: now I am queen. It's not about creating an absolute monarchy (which can cause other problems for a realm and is not a good idea for the population, because they are no longer even remotely represented in terms of their interests), it's about a sneaky coup.

[@jampine8268]

Also, whilst I assume OP might have missed some details, I don't see any actual...evidence for her claims. Aristocrats being greedy and wanting more power, but she never actually proved any malicious intent beyond petty politics. I just had an idea how she could actually be a villain and expose the corrupt members: she plays a over the top witch and vows to seize the kingdom, but sends letters offering power and land to the aristocrats, in exchange for their alliance. But it's just a ploy for the traitors to expose themselves, and she can round them up. However, she is actually killing innocent people for this gambit, akin to the ending of Watchmen.

[@ArcCaravan]

@@MortusVanDerHell Unfortunately the DM may have not considered those extra details beyond motivating a nuanced BBEG. Corrupt nobles are an easy way to turn players against fantasy kingdom, at worst making them not care who wins when everyone is bad enough. The players wanted a game with a villain that wasn't generically evil, not a political simulator where the right choice is compromising morals in the name of stability.

[@MikeLewisGaming]

I'm sorry for your loss. I am unable to provide any financial relief but I did repost the gofundme page. Well wishes to you and your family.

[@deepseastonecore3017]

Thanks 4 all the hard work.

[@soldierbreed]

As far as the BBEG seems like the DM put a lit if effort into making a villain that coukd be empathized with. If they didn't dontge same for the King you cant really blame the players

[@MsPBJTime]

Don't forget the writers gave Helen Keeley this line: "We must take succor in one another's bodies and words." Cheekiness aside, Helen portrayed Aylin as a multifaceted being and showed great emotional depth and range.

[@masondukeofkale]

First story smells of scam

[@zerothehero6100]

I will bet 100 dollars that everything in the gloves story after the part where OP almost cries is fake. Imagine writing a real life fic where the girl you like marries your enemy and then divorces him just to immediately start dating you instead. Alright, dude.

[@NightshadeBane-bq7yx]

The first story is just the old shell game with all the deception crap being flung around to confuse people.

[@Yoxiv]

Last story felt a bit odd. Not that I'm saying it was fake, just strange that the OP brings up some girl they liked that they nearly lost, then got with, and both hating on the DM. Maybe it's how the story was written, who knows. Regardless, the DM is definitely an asshat for killing the OP's character so unfairly. The poison on the door is just total BS. Even the inaccessible door to Vault 87 in Fallout 3 makes more sense since there's ungodly amounts of radiation in the area that will players even if they have a ton of Radaway.

[@nicewanwan9163]

How was the last OP in love with this character and talking about how great he was... Before he'd even played?

[@ArcCaravan]

@@nicewanwan9163 Probably thinking of the potential stories for him based on the planned backstory and personality.

[@iank472]

The complex BBEG story is a perfect opportunity to transition into a pretty fun "Evil" campaign!

[@mesiagamer5217]

I'm pretty sure the Dm isn't ready for that.

[@iank472]

@mesiagamer5217 I mean if you go to the trouble of making a genuinely deep, likeable BBEG you should really expect and plan for your players to swap sides!

[@Isaygoodday5]

That's exactly what i was thinking! If they want to join the supposed BBEG then let them

[@ArcCaravan]

Except the point is she isn't considered evil by the players, so it'd just be picking a different side.

[@iank472]

@ArcCaravan that's why I put "Evil" in quotation marks. It's entirely subjective to the players and DM if they are evil or not.

[@MrGamernova]

Now on one hand, Yeah what Arc Caravan said, But on the other, I'm gonna be honest, I'd join the Sexy BBEG too. The issue with her is that she pulls something way too smart way too early for the DM's good. If my character told her to f off I'd be walking straight into a jail cell & or end up killing more of the Kings men in my way to fight the mistress anyways. But by joining her I get to keep graces with one side with a leader that just straight up joined us & reviled everything either out of stupid pride or an odd trust of the party, We get to hear about the "Corruption" for ourselves from the lady herself, & really see if she's worth sticking to or not. & we get a free tour of her Headquarters if we decide to pay her back. Now say if my Character was more tied to the king or the Aristocrats then well duh of course I'd say no. But all in all going by most characters I make, if I were put in that set up that early in the game, sorry Arc Caravan but the choice would be clear to me.

[@vortega472]

Hey there Doge, I hope you're doing better. I hope your furry family is giving you comfort - oh who are we kidding - kitties are always comfort.

[@rynowatcher]

First one: $20 a week is not that high. This is 2-6 hours a week of entertainment, so we are talking live concert ticket pricing. The gm sounded like he had a web service he was paying with a subscription. Not sure i would pay a month ahead of time, but the price is about right for a weekly game.

[@ronturner3598]

5 dollars an hour is too much for a referee for a complicated game? In this economy?

[@R3GARnator]

Second story: That's called "thinking with your other head".

[@ArcCaravan]

@@R3GARnator Actually feels ironic that a story about reacting to a nuanced villain is treated with no nuance. Either "players are stupid horndogs who'll join sexy villain" or "DM/OP should blindly respect others siding with intended BBEG".

[@lambtoken2708]

Second story is more likely "DM has tunnel vision"

[@azradun3903]

I don't understand the GM who only gave out seriously cursed magic items. That seems just mean. I wonder if he would like going to a grocery shop and getting spoled food every single time he bought something? Once in a while, yes. But he should not penalize smart players who cast Identify.

[@johandejong2292]

Long. Short. Doesn't matter. There must always be kitties. ;-)

[@aquaticcatfey]

The DM in the final game is a jerk. The player should have at least gotten a saving throw. But, yeah: getting with the jerk's ex was very much the last laugh.

[@clericofchaos1]

eh, it wouldn't be the first time i've seen a party join the bbeg. It comes from giving the bbeg an excellent motive or just making the bbeg fun to be around. If the "good guys" who hire the adventurers are assholes and the bbeg treats them well in every encounter, joking around and behaving like just one of the gang, then yeah a lot of players would just side with him, regardless of what he's doing or why.

[@Blueoriontiger]

As someone who peruses Roll20, $20 seems to be the going rate nowadays. I don't condone such a rate, but I rarely see games now that start below $15.

[@kingcyclops4079]

The players logic makes no sense. So the BBEG’s plan is to kill all the aristocrats and put the king in full power, even though the king literally said he didn’t want absolute power. So the king is going to either order the BBEG and the party to be killed for their crimes or he suddenly changes character and accepts the BBEG’s plan. But the king relied on the aristocrats to run the kingdom in the first place. How is he going to be able to run an entire kingdom when he never had that responsibility before? Along with the fact that anyone loyal to the aristocrats are going to revolt after learning that their king pardoned a serial killer who murdered the most powerful people running the kingdom as well as slaughtering innocent soldiers.

[@KOBULT92]

The cursed DM is just kind of a jackass. "Oh all I do the whole campaign is drop you ridiculous cursed items, why won't you pick up any more items? Well if you guys aren't gonna get killed by my stupid cursed items anymore, then I don't wanna DM."

[@ArcCaravan]

Apparently DM did enough outside the cursed items for players to continue the game without picking up items. Unfortunately that didn't matter because DM only cared about making players get cursed.

[@leparfumdugrosboss4216]

The second story is actually cool. Just proceed with the campaign.

[@mackiemark5149]

See I’ve had people ask for money for a session, but that’s because the host was gonna use that to go buy snacks/cook us some food and we also shot him some money on top of that for doing a stand up job. But requiring that much just to play? Ridiculous

[@krystlvines]

for the algorithm!

[@Kira-osity]

I would probably be petty and say sure. I will make cursed items and then only give them to the guy who likes cursed items until he sees how it isn't' fun.

[@Xuecnahc]

Still with the shameful like and comment kitties! Love it every time.

[@ronturner3598]

Seth wants his voice back...

[@Oreo_cakester]

Did DnD Doge said something when Kobasu died? It was the shiba inu who the meme was made, did he said or did something about it?

[@brendantheawesome1]

Am I the only one who thinks that the last part of the "Gloves" story was unnecessary? "You killed my first DnD character. Now I'm gonna air out your dirty laundry and tell them about how you got divorced and I got with your ex." I don't think that knife twist was necessary, dude.

[@starofjustice1]

Sounds kind of made up, tbh.

[@vguerra2277]

$20 per session isn't much. You gotta realize, theyre making a custom experience for you for 3 to 4 hours. Movie theatres cost just as much for about 2 hours. Still - the rest of the set up did seem suspicious

[@starofjustice1]

Movies cost millions of dollars, have professionally trained staff, and take months to make. It's a bit different.

[@vguerra2277]

​@@starofjustice1 Not really. You're trading production value for a tailored experience. Consider, for instance, tutors. How much do tutors cost per hour? $20 would be a steal, even for small group tutoring. Part of that is due to the individualized attention.

[@starofjustice1]

@@vguerra2277 Sure. But don't compare it to a movie if you've got something that works better. >>Consider, for instance, tutors. How much do tutors cost per hour? $20 would be a steal, even for small group tutoring.

[@AnarchyJesus]

i wish ppl stop using "BBEG" it stopped being quirky/funny the 2rd time i heard it and its harder to say or type then "boss"

[@adamka-1]

Mf named her solari ops players chronically ignorant

[@ArcCaravan]

@@adamka-1 Like the story said, they could have suspected she's secretly a relative.

[@jamesgotchall7205]

80 a month.....okay, let's say i go along with that, how many guaranteed sessions in each month, whether other players are present or not?

[@gimok2k5]

Probably one, if even that. While more may get sceduled, they will also 'cancelled last minute' (but were in reality never intended to happen)

[@Rd0Lg]

ESAM soyjak spotted lol.

[@starofjustice1]

wath

[@Michaeljack81sk]

Story 2: DM should have known this level of nuance was beyond the group when they didn't Immediately realise this beautiful sorceress with a name that referenced the Sun wasn't obviously the "Mistress of Eternal Light". That 'secret' was so obvious the DM might as well have hung a "BBEG" sign around her neck! Story 3: DM doesn't seem to be a bad guy, he just needs to admit he has a curse problem and try to quit!

[@ArcCaravan]

I feel it could be salvaged by making the king the nuanced BBEG who wants to protect his family from a murderous vigilante.

[@Michaeljack81sk]

@@ArcCaravan Not a bad idea but that's more of a twist villain than nuanced

[@ArcCaravan]

@@Michaeljack81sk I wouldn't really call the king a twist villain in this scenario due to being unplanned, but even if he was he can still be nuanced due to the motive of just protecting his family from treasonous vigilantes. Nuance and twists aren't mutually exclusive.

[@blazingsword2578]

Ive heard the cursed item dm story from either critcrab or drake and yeah its stupid

[@ArcCaravan]

Same. I enjoy hearing old stories from different narrators since I occasionally get another thought, like this time noticing how petty DM was for abandoning what was otherwise a good campaign just because players wouldn't let themselves get cursed.

[@davestrider9535]

Kinda on the side of the players joining the bbeg actually

[@LucyBean42]

Nuanced Villain - I did this in my campaign, an NPC ally who was really evil and was going to be the BBEG, but the party recruited her. I think the DM was wrong for being upset... if your players LIKE your villain and want to help her, follow that lead. Your players are.

[@ArcCaravan]

I think the DM was more upset at being disrespected for considering the idea she could be considered a villain with one of the reasons being her attractiveness. If it was just about the players siding with her, I'd be inclined to agree.

[@Nyx685]

Party: "Hey NPC villain join our cool club, we have cookies" NPC Villain: "Cookies you say? Our boss never gave us minions cookies...🥺" (FULL ON FRIENDSHIP!!!)

[@ArcCaravan]

@@Nyx685 Players want nuanced villain, DM makes antagonist against corrupt aristocrats, players want to change sides.

[@lambtoken2708]

​@@ArcCaravanyou give the DM too much credit. I agree, yeah, but they couldn't possibly be meaning that. It's just a DM with tunnel vision

[@amberphoenixfire3510]

To the Second story I actually find the OP and the DM to be more the horror aspect of that story. As a DM when I make a nuanced BBEG I go in fully expecting there is the chance the party will in fact side with them. The entire idea of a nuanced BBEG is that "evil" is not purely a two sides of a coin issue. There is always the chance that the party will look at it more as their actions not truly being evil, or even that the minor evil justifies a greater good at the end. That is the whole idea of nuance, nothing is simply cut and dry. Your players being faced with a realistic decision of do they find themselves agreeing with the BBEG or not and having to choose if they want to side with them can lead to amazing stories. Grant the OP in story two tries to make it out like it is only because the players found her hot, but he admits they did want to help her in her goal to save the kingdom at the same time. So to try to act like they only wanted to side with her with her looks takes all the nuance out of why they were deciding to do so. Seems to me the OP and DM both just lack an understanding of how nuance is meant to be played and how it will always lead to a much more sandbox game where the BBEG is not always the one the DM had in mind but sometimes instead will become the side that hired the party in the first place.

[@ArcCaravan]

@@amberphoenixfire3510 It'd be one thing if the party simply wanted to side with the intended BBEG by agreeing with her morals while liking her. It's another thing to rage at DM that the intended BBEG shouldn't be considered a BBEG because of her attractiveness and potentially agreeable motive. The players were given a nuanced villain they asked for and got mad that she could be called a villain in any way. That's what makes it a tabletop horror story.

[@TheNateRule]

The cursed items story is a classic

[@ArcCaravan]

Huh, title and thumbnail changed from being about the $80 game/scam to the nuanced BBEG.

[@ArcCaravan]

Also, not sure that story is deserving of the unflattering thumbnail. While the players did have some horny reasons to side with the BBEG, it does ignore the nuance that was a big factor here.

[@gimok2k5]

@@ArcCaravan After hearing the story - nah, the players did say quite blatantly: "She can't be evil, she's hot!". Because apparently an attractive woman can't be evil, lying to the party and manipulating them to her own ends.

[@ArcCaravan]

@@gimok2k5 Like I said, I aknowledge that part of the problem was the players insisting the intended BBEG was too attractive to truly be evil. But they also said they found her reasons for villainy to be too agreeable, which happens when trying to make a nuanced villain. Seems more like DM succeeding too well in making a BBEG that's not just generically evil by making them accidentally good.

[@lambtoken2708]

​@@gimok2k5we can only have the DM's side, which is obviously biased.

[@DraconisWyrm]

every time doge signs off i always, always want to hear him say 'horror story friendly'

[@easiestcc6451]

Every time he says kitties, I always wanna hear him say Tiddies" for some reason

[@bellarose4816]

$20 per session is normal. I cant believe this is getting so much attention lol

[@CooperAATE]

No idea what to expect from that title...

[@ArcCaravan]

@@CooperAATE Which title? The thumbnail and title changed from being about a potential scam to players wanting to side with planned BBEG who was too nuanced.

[@sailorsloth8183]

$15-$20 a session isn’t all that unusual for paid sessions online. Sure, the DM doesn’t have to pay for minis with online games, but they have to pay for other services like VTT subscriptions for higher quality gameplay experiences and digital maps. You’re also paying the DM for the time and energy they put into making the game. That being said, not mentioning it’s a paid game in the looking for players post is a red flag (assuming OP didn’t overlook it), and everything else going in that game sounds like OP dodged a bullet.

[@dracone4370]

I just had a thought, what do think would happen if Doge was made using Pugmire while his kitties are made with Monarchies of Mau? That could be fun to see

[@monikasernek1177]

Yes! Specially consider that shiba inu is a option in the main corebook.

[@_vlpin]

Okay, DM wrote a nuanced bad guy and then gets mad when players like the bad guy? If they relate to the motivation then why be mad? Just go with it. Weirdo.

[@Trivial_Whim]

It’s pronounced Sti-gee-en.

[@ShitpostingJoJo]

2nd Story: OF COURSE the party ends up Simping for the charismatic villain. 🤦🏻 This is why we can't have good things. 💀 We out here having grown ass people getting on they hormones for fictional characters 😭 wtf

[@ArcCaravan]

Could salvage this by making the king the new nuanced BBEG who doesn't feel his family deserves to be eradicated.

[@lambtoken2708]

This doesn't really matter all that much tbh. It's advanced make-believe anyway

[@M_Alexander]

Fyi "stygian" is pronounced more like "pigeon" stij-ian

[@SinnerChrono]

I will say this 10000000 times. No dnd is better than bad dnd. You dont need to settle for bad games and bad dms just so you can play dnd. If you really cant find a group that isnt awful. Move or find a new hobby. Ita called diversifying your time and interests. I know this is scary for you introverts. But life is hard and unfair and you need to push yourself. You can be an introvert AND take charge of your life and make meaningful choices to prevent yourself from being miserable. Dont be spineless.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

80 dollars a month does not sound like that much. 4 games a month, 4 hours each and 4 players. Assuming preparation takes as much time as the game, that is 10$ an hour for the DM. But keeping the details a secret for so long, maybe hoping the sunk cost fallacy has already set in by then, is definitely suspicious.

[@fred_derf]

You're assuming the games happen weekly and last 4 hours... how good of a deal is it when the game only happens once every other month and last 2 hours? Or, as is the case here (almost certainly) never happen at all?

[@sublimetech]

$20 is the average for a paid game nowadays

[@danwizzle91]

Yea I saw crispy tavern cover this same horror story Monday and I'm like is 80$ a month really that crazy? Paid games are kinda common now and if you are playing weekly pf course 4 20$ games would amount to 80$ monthly is that so odd?

[@sailorsloth8183]

@@danwizzle91I do think it’s weird they talked about a monthly cost rather than a per-session cost, makes me wonder if they had any kind of compensation for players who missed sessions or sessions that had to be cancelled, or if they charged like that to rip people off. The actual pricing breakdown is fine, it’s the way they’re charging that’s suspicious IMO.

[@danwizzle91]

@sailorsloth8183 that's an excellent point, I pay like 25 a week for my paid game but 1 it's weekly and 2 my dm is very good about either refunding for cancelations, not charging, and 1 shots are free if im interested

[@rynowatcher]

That is my experiance. This is 2-6 hours of entertainment a week, so it should be on the same price point as a live concert.

[@rynowatcher]

​@@danwizzle91it really is not that high. The op is used to playing for free, so there was some sticker shock. For 2-6 hours of entertainment a week, you should be charging concert prices, whatever the entertainment is.

[@rynowatcher]

Last one, kind of surprised about the doge's take on the last story. Being in a relationship is not really a comptative thing and the dm did not date/marry the person in the story to get at op so much as just tried to make a relationship work. That element sucked for op they marrying the woman you were dating is not "doing something" to op. That gets into the realm of thinking of her as property that he was owed or a prize to be won.

[@tombom6643]

yea the last story sounds fake, its not even a good story.

[@rynowatcher]

Third one, i have heard that one before and honestly, i do not really think it is a horror story. The dm had a thing he was into that the rest of the group did not want to engage with, so he left. That really is not different that a heavy roleplay gm quitting a campaign because the pc's refuse to talk to the npc's and kill everything on sight. The group is not giving the dm the type of fun they want, so they left for another group. They are still friends, appearantly, and the dm is giving op advice, so he probably has his own game going on somewhere that like his flavor of fun.

[@IdiotinGlans]

Ok, but I'm stealing mistress of Eternal Light for future political intrigue campaign, she sounds like a dope villain.